PPC 970/MacBidouille Rumor Summary [Archive]

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MacRumors

May 7, 2003, 12:48 PM

A brief summary of 970/Macbidouille rumors to date.

When?

Macbidouille reported that the PowerPC 970 was "cleared" for production (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/04/20030409083217.shtml) and that production of the new processor started on April 15th 2003 .

Initial reports (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/03/20030310042739.shtml) claimed that Peter Sandon from IBM will be presenting the chip at WWDC - allowing developers to see a prototype 970 machine. Subsequent reports (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/05/20030502173926.shtml), however, hinted that mass production off 970 PowerMacs has already begun and that full availability of the production 970 PowerMacs would arrive by WWDC (June 23, 2003). Their most recent timeline (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/05/20030505020041.shtml) provides a bit more wiggle room with the 970 PowerMacs pegged for June/July 2003.

Specs?

An early report (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/03/20030325130959.shtml) claimed speeds up to dual 2.3GHz. However, their benchmarks (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/05/20030505124517.shtml), only demonstrate machines up to Dual 1.8GHz in speed.

The 970 Motherboards themselves are said to be longer and narrower (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/03/20030318002757.shtml), and will utilize DDR 400, USB 2.0, AGP 8x (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/02/20030228021902.shtml), as well as Hypertransport (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/04/20030410090159.shtml).

The Truth?

At this time, it's unclear - while MacBidouille claims almost immediate availability of the 970s at WWDC, other sources are split on the topic. Some expect just a demo to be shown at WWDC... while one unverified source claims "970 machines will be available the next day after Steve Jobs opening WWDC presentation. With a twist."

Time will tell...

deepkid

May 7, 2003, 12:50 PM

It's about time that I replace my souped up original G3 266 MT (which inherited a G4 400 upgrade). Let's hope that some of these rumors become fact.

Itching to buy a new JVC JY-HD10U high definition camcorder and either a powermac (depends on the specs) or a 17" powerbook.

My, my my. We live in interesting times. Even better as a mac user. Bring on the powermacs!

OK kids, but of course these are rumors. This is a rumors site.

ru·mor n.

1. A piece of unverified information of uncertain origin usually spread by word of mouth.

2. Unverified information received from another; hearsay.

fact n.

1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences.

2.
a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed.
b. A real occurrence; an event.
c. Something believed to be true or real.

3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime.

4. Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence.

fussball

May 7, 2003, 12:55 PM

interesting yes, but stressful as we wait for these supposed chips to improve apple's computers by so much!

canadianmacguy

May 7, 2003, 12:56 PM

Sounds great, but I'll believe it when I'm sitting in the WWDC keynote and Steve announces it.

Till then, it's all rumours..

DrGonzo

May 7, 2003, 01:01 PM

well with all these rumors flying around about ppc970, i would put money on the fact that SOMETHING ppc970 is gunna happen at WWDC

Ambrose Chapel

May 7, 2003, 01:07 PM

This reminds me of all the speculation about the Moto G5 a year or so ago. I guess it was before MWNY 01. People were so certain that it was coming and there was all this "evidence" people had (friends who worked at Moto, "don't ask me how I know, but..." etc), and then the PPC 8500 revealed itself as vaporware (at least the Mac version of the 8500).

Now once again everyone is so certain, but now there is actual real evidence. The 970 is almost certainly not going to become the next 8500. Even Steve Jobs acknowledges the speed gap and seems to know that he must deliver soon.

So releasing it 2 months from now at the WWDC is as good a time as ever, but I just hope that if it doesn't come then, people don't get too crestfallen and angry. It's coming, it's coming.

dongmin

May 7, 2003, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by deepkid
My, my my. We live in interesting times. Even better as a mac user. Bring on the powermacs!

As a comparison, this is what PC users have to look forward to:
(today's top pc-related announcements)

palladium (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=5&u=/ap/20030507/ap_on_hi_te/microsoft_secure_computing)

the iLoo (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=2&u=/ap/20030507/ap_on_hi_te/internet_toilet)
(could they be making fun of Apple here?)

Sorry for the off-topic post, but it was too funny to pass up...

apemn88

May 7, 2003, 01:11 PM

Ok the published time Line (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC970_MPF2002.pdf) [ibm.com] claims that production will begin in the 2nd half of 2003 & samples by the 2nd quater. The rumor checks out pretty closely with those figures from IBM.

It seems to me that rumors this intense (only from 1 site though) and the official timeline seem to give above average credibility to this rumor.

Apple is quiet because they got burned so badly by Motorola so many times in terms of timelines/performance. If I was Apple I would not say one word until the manufacturing has reached full speed. The legacy of Motorola's crappiness are not that distant of a memory.

Just my guess.

Ape

CrackedButter

May 7, 2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by dongmin
As a comparison, this is what PC users have to look forward to:
(today's top pc-related announcements)

palladium (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=5&u=/ap/20030507/ap_on_hi_te/microsoft_secure_computing)

the iLoo (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=2&u=/ap/20030507/ap_on_hi_te/internet_toilet)
(could they be making fun of Apple here?)

Sorry for the off-topic post, but it was too funny to pass up...

That is funny, but also rather sadly true, thats all thats in the news these days.

dongmin

May 7, 2003, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Ambrose Chapel
This reminds me of all the speculation about the Moto G5 a year or so ago. I guess it was before MWNY 01. People were so certain that it was coming and there was all this "evidence" people had (friends who worked at Moto, "don't ask me how I know, but..." etc), and then the PPC 8500 revealed itself as vaporware (at least the Mac version of the 8500).

Now once again everyone is so certain, but now there is actual real evidence. The 970 is almost certainly not going to become the next 8500. Even Steve Jobs acknowledges the speed gap and seems to know that he must deliver soon.

So releasing it 2 months from now at the WWDC is as good a time as ever, but I just hope that if it doesn't come then, people don't get too crestfallen and angry. It's coming, it's coming.

the biggest difference between MWSF2002 and now is that the 970 is a real chip that's been developed and is now in production (according to IBM's own publicized schedule). It was previewed to the public almost 7 months ago. AND it's being developed by IBM, who's clearly a better at fabbing than Moto. AND the 970 was designed with AltiVec. We know this chip will be available this summer and fall.

The only uncertainties are 1) at what speeds these chips will debut, 2) when Apple will introduce computers with these chips, and 3) whether Apple will introduce dual cpu machines.

pfranzen

May 7, 2003, 01:28 PM

seems like a lot of perverts heaven to me!

alset

May 7, 2003, 01:28 PM

Funny, every rumor site on the net is using MacBidouille as their source for the 970.

Dan

Ambrose Chapel

May 7, 2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by dongmin
the biggest difference between MWSF2002 and now is that the 970 is a real chip that's been developed and is now in production (according to IBM's own publicized schedule). It was previewed to the public almost 7 months ago. AND it's being developed by IBM, who's clearly a better at fabbing than Moto. AND the 970 was designed with AltiVec. We know this chip will be available this summer and fall.

I know the 970 isn't vaporware, I just don't want to see mass depression if we don't have Power Mac 970s by June 27th. I think we all know it'll be here before too long.
:)

edenwaith

May 7, 2003, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by dongmin

the iLoo (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=2&u=/ap/20030507/ap_on_hi_te/internet_toilet)
(could they be making fun of Apple here?)
[/B]

Hey, I'm gonna sue! They stole my idea! I came up with the idea of iSwoosh several years ago...now, iLoo? How silly.

Seriously though, I was looking for some sign that this article was a spoof. Is this truly serious?

Anyway, back to projected new PowerMacs. If even half of the predictions happen, that would be sweet. Definitely time to upgrade. USB2 would be nice, but with Firewire 800, I'm somewhat leery whether or not USB 2 will ever be introduced on Macs. A 900 MHz FSB would also be great...what are PCs at? Around 500 MHz? Well, we'll have to wait and see.

T'hain Esh Kelch

May 7, 2003, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by pfranzen
seems like a lot of perverts heaven to me!
Muhahahah!! :D

Anyway.. Ahremm.. If MB's rumors turns out to be true, they'll turn into the new Apple Evangelist site.. ;)

Or the other way.. MB going MOSR.. ==> Bye bye!

JtheLemur

May 7, 2003, 02:09 PM

Deepkid wrote:

ru·mor n.

*gasp* Ru-Mor??!

How do you know Ru-Mor??! YOU KNOW TOO MUCH PUNY EARTHLING! SHUT YOUR NOISE TUBE AT ONCE or I must alert Ru-Mor's galactic forces!

MOM

May 7, 2003, 02:23 PM

Well, for those few who are not convinced tha Apple will use the 970, I think the volume of speculation surounding the 970 and the silence from Apple is meaningful. Yes, Apple doesn't comment on rumors, but when expectations in the community get high enough Apple will let a few words out to keep expectations in line with reality. Thus, silence on Apples part, or even further-acknowledgement that they have issues with the speed of their chips-, at this point is enough to convince me that the 970 will be used. When, well I'm not sure, but I think it will be Fall at the latest. If the rumors around WWDC continue to build as they have been and we don't hear anything from Apple-that would further convince me that its coming sooner rather than later.

It's like Christmas to a 6 year old....I CAN'T WAIT!

avus

May 7, 2003, 02:29 PM

Seriously, I am very concerned that MacBidouille has risen our hope so much but there will be an inevitable letdown if everything doesn't come true whenever (or even "if") Apple announces new machines...

theFly

May 7, 2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Ambrose Chapel
I know the 970 isn't vaporware, I just don't want to see mass depression if we don't have Power Mac 970s by June 27th. I think we all know it'll be here before too long.
:)

You're kidding right? This is the Mac rumor community you're talking about. Why you just need to jump over to some other Apple insider forums and see how much we build these things up.

It's not that they're going to release a 970 on/before June 27th, but because, during his interview with CNN, Steve Jobs was sitting with his legs crossed must certainly indicate that we're also going to get an iTablet and a 1.8GHz 970 PowerBook as well on the 27th.

Not only will the iTablet be able to connect wirelessly at OC-3 speeds, with it's built in laser, it'll be able to neatly shave and part your nose hairs (with the 1.2 upgrade, of course).

I'm not sure, but a friend told me that in one of the buildings on Infinity Loop, they've got a working Warp 5 engine there. How they know it's working, is beyond me, but that's what my friend said.

We live for depression, because we know, if not June 27th, certainly at Macworld SF, Jobs will introduce the new 50GHz PowerMacs. He just has to, all the signs point to it...

theFly
Fly on the Mac
www.flyonthemac.com
Rumors You Can Bet On

Loa

May 7, 2003, 02:50 PM

Hehehe...

The Warp 5 bit was great! Thanks!

Loa

pbrennen

May 7, 2003, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by apemn88
Ok the published time Line (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC970_MPF2002.pdf) [ibm.com] claims that production will begin in the 2nd half of 2003 & samples by the 2nd quater. The rumor checks out pretty closely with those figures from IBM.

It seems to me that rumors this intense (only from 1 site though) and the official timeline seem to give above average credibility to this rumor.

Apple is quiet because they got burned so badly by Motorola so many times in terms of timelines/performance. If I was Apple I would not say one word until the manufacturing has reached full speed. The legacy of Motorola's crappiness are not that distant of a memory.

Just my guess.

Ape

well a good check on this would be to ask... where are the samples? any news from IBM if they are shipping samples? if not, then i would be skeptical about a 970 summer. also, what about the 20th anniversary superbowl ad? remember the story about that one? 2003 is the year of the laptop. my guess is 970 in january 2004.

comment on this. i don't mean to be a buzzkill, but this is sounding too good to be true.

jupiter_312

May 7, 2003, 02:58 PM

i really really hope these rumors are true and the 970's are available immediately at wwdc. getting one on my birthday (june 27th) would make me extremely happy.....even though it'll have to be a birthday present to myself. oh well.

dongmin

May 7, 2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Macrumors
while one unverified source claims "970 machines will be available the next day after Steve Jobs opening WWDC presentation. With a twist."

what the hell does that mean, "a twist"?

-Steve doing the twist during the intro?

-A twist in time which allows Steve to go back 5 years to when Apple last had the lead in speed?

-A new twist-off zif-socket design?

Freg3000

May 7, 2003, 03:05 PM

arn

May 7, 2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by dongmin
what the hell does that mean, "a twist"?

As with all unverified rumors, I would just go "Hmmm... interesting" and move on.

arn

Ambrose Chapel

May 7, 2003, 03:09 PM

Nice one, theFly :D

Actually I think all the pre G5 hype I remember from last year was on the AI forum, before I came to my senses and found MacRumors.

Steamboatwillie

May 7, 2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by dongmin

-A new twist-off zif-socket design?

ROFL! <gasp> can't breathe...

Brother, that made my day, too funnny! :D

BaghdadBob

May 7, 2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by dongmin
what the hell does that mean, "a twist"?
Wrong, arn, this clearly means he's going to be served with a lemon wedge. Sheesh, you'd think you'd be good at this by now.

phampton81

May 7, 2003, 03:27 PM

I am getting a strong anti macbidulle feel from this post, dont know why, I mean I do realize they have been extra vocal about this one, but I still think we should wait the month and either let them prove themselves or shoot themselves in the foot.

ktlx

May 7, 2003, 03:29 PM

machan

May 7, 2003, 03:30 PM

hi guys, i just registered (finally).

my guess, and you know i'm nobody after all, is that every developer at the conference will receive a low-end 970 tower to take with them, along with a copy of Panther. i mean, that would be quite a twist and make a good impression on all there to develop, develop and develop some more.

crazy, i know, but that's what my gut is saying will happen.

blueBomber

May 7, 2003, 03:31 PM

at least were taking this with a smile:D

seriously though, MB's rep. will be destroyed if they are off by a hair... it kinda seems like they're putting all of their eggs in one basket to me. Even still though, I'd love to see Apple bring back the "pentium smoking" campaign

edenwaith

May 7, 2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by blueBomber
I'd love to see Apple bring back the "pentium smoking" campaign

All they'd have to do is put an Al Powerbook on a Pentium chip and wait for the smoke storm to begin!

Hawthorne

May 7, 2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by dongmin
what the hell does that mean, "a twist"?

-Steve doing the twist during the intro?

-A twist in time which allows Steve to go back 5 years to when Apple last had the lead in speed?

-A new twist-off zif-socket design?

Simple. Kelly and Jack Osbourne will walk out on stage with a PowerMac each:

Osbournes: "Steve, Steve, we've something to tell you. These aren't regular PowerMacs, they're PowerMacs with a twist!" (sound of zipper, PowerMacs morph into new form factor that shows off the Dual 3.2 Ghz 970's inside).

Steve: "You're a bunch of bloody magicians!"

Osbournes: "And we're not really the Osbournes (zip) We're Osbourne 2's! We're finally released!"

:D

Wonder Boy

May 7, 2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by edenwaith
All they'd have to do is put an Al Powerbook on a Pentium chip and wait for the smoke storm to begin!

Now that is actually funny!

hvfsl

May 7, 2003, 03:37 PM

Only a dual PPC970 will be able to beat the new P4 3.4Ghz which is meant to come out around June. But PCs will still be faster since they will have dual 3.4Ghz will Macs will have dual 1.8Ghz. There is no way the PPC970 can be fast enough to take the speed crown back from PCs straight away, I expect we will have to wait for the PPC980 to see that.

BaghdadBob

May 7, 2003, 03:44 PM

mcs37

May 7, 2003, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by hvfsl
Only a dual PPC970 will be able to beat the new P4 3.4Ghz which is meant to come out around June. But PCs will still be faster since they will have dual 3.4Ghz will Macs will have dual 1.8Ghz.

There best bet is to blitzkrieg the world with dual PPC970 machines, including dual PPC970 17" PowerBooks. If they wait around for their older machines to sell, they'll only hurt themselves more because people will be waiting for a PPC970 PowerBook (why buy a 1 Ghz G4 PB when you can wait a few months and get a 2 GHz PPC 970 PB?). In order to make a big splash this year ("of the laptop"), they need to throw everything they've got at us immediately. It worked for the Germans!

deepkid

May 7, 2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by arn
As with all unverified rumors, I would just go "Hmmm... interesting" and move on.

arn

Isn't an "unverified rumor" redundant?

A verified rumor then becomes fact. And as with all rumor sites, most of the content not verified (take the official 10.2.6 announcement as an example of an exception) should be taken with a grain of salt.

BaghdadBob

May 7, 2003, 04:09 PM

No, an "unverified rumor" is redundant. An oxymoron is self-contradicting, such as holy war.

Edit: Editing your post to reflect my linguistic correction is cheating. You said "oxymoron" and you know it! :p

jamilecrire

May 7, 2003, 04:14 PM

deepkid

May 7, 2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
No, an "unverified rumor" is redundant. An oxymoron is self-contradicting, such as holy war.

Right you are.

GulGnu

May 7, 2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by jamilecrire
Show me a dual P4. The 3.06GHz P4 has hyperthreading which is similar to a DP machine but it is still 1 processor.

You can however get a dual/quad/... Xeon. But as a desktop it's kind of pointless.

Why is a Dual Xeon more pointless than a dual 970?

Regards / GulGnu

MacsRgr8

May 7, 2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by GulGnu
Why is a Dual Xeon more pointless than a dual 970?

Regards / GulGnu

Not pointless....... but very expensive, and not too many consumer apps running on Windows take advantage of MP.

Just one thing:

I have registered myself to the Apple-Expo in Paris coming September.
To my surprize I can (and will) also attend the Keynote on September 16th! I had the impression Apple wouldn't do a Keynote, as MacWorld Tokyo and New York have been cancelled... But maybe.....maybe Steve wants to show-off PPC 970 and 10.3 to Europe! Stating these guys will be available right away!....even in Holland. <drool>

GulGnu

May 7, 2003, 04:46 PM

"Not pointless....... but very expensive, and not too many consumer apps running on Windows take advantage of MP."

True - then again, dual processor users by the very nature of SMP processing, are power-hungry pros. As for price, Xeons are indeed pricier, but not *that* much pricier, especially if you are content to settle for the second-fastest model (2,8 GHz), as opposed to the top-of-the-line one (3,06 GHz). Then there is of course the Opteron to consider as well.

As for the 970, it will be interesting to see if Apple goes Dual for the PM:s. Being able to stay single-processor, no longer lagging far behind Intel, the temptation to cut costs by sticking to a mostly SP line must be pretty strong. Oh well, hope they get em out for the WWDC...

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

bones

May 7, 2003, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by GulGnu
Why is a Dual Xeon more pointless than a dual 970?

Regards / GulGnu

Because the processors cost far, far more than the 970. As a desktop it is not in the same league.

jouster

May 7, 2003, 04:50 PM

Hawthorne,

That was hilarious....the whole Osborne 2 thing got a bit lost in the arguments over the definition of rumor, but.........nice one!!:D

keithcobbett

May 7, 2003, 04:51 PM

I was under the impression that the 970 was quicker than the Power4. Am I not correct in assuming that? I just download the spec sheet that was above on somebody else's post and on Page 13, operating at 1GHz, the 970 was slower than the Power4???? Is this data correct or am I reading it incorrectly??? Please advise.

cb911

May 7, 2003, 04:51 PM

yeah!! the 970 will be released at WWDC. with a twist!!

sounds good to me! :D i'm just going to keep hoping that there will be a really big twist!

and like others have said, all of this talk about the 970 almost definitely means that something 970 will happen at WWDC. at least that is something to look forward to.

GulGnu

May 7, 2003, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by bones
Because the processors cost far, far more than the 970. As a desktop it is not in the same league.

From Googlegear:

Xeon 3,06 GHz: $729.00

Xeon 2,80 GHz: $470.00 / $442.00 depending on bus speed (800MHz / 533 MHz)

Xeon 2,6 GHz: $295.00

Reference: Pentium 4, 3 GHz: $499.00

The 970 isn't out yet, so the P4 will have to serve as a proxy representing the top end of the "ordinary" processor market.

While Xeons certainly are pricier, It's an exaggeration to say they aren't in the same league price-wise, especially if you are willing to settle for not picking the newest, flashiest one.

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

shycoy

May 7, 2003, 05:09 PM

but i'd rather wait and see the new processors specs on the Apple website when it's true !!!
but my friends reading your rumors makes me dream about THE Mac.
Well wait and see dear fellows, time will tell...:cool:

nawk

May 7, 2003, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by dongmin
what the hell does that mean, "a twist"?

If the rumor is true, then the twist obviously has something to do with the OS. My guess: the new machines will come with a Beta of Panther (which has 64bit kernel support for the 970) and you'll get the real thing in September.

crassusad44

May 7, 2003, 05:21 PM

MacBidoulle is not the only source for PPC970 information. Here is a snippet from MacWhispers:

http://www.envestco2.com/macwhispers/archives/000056.php

And, if you look at this thread from November last year, things begin to get interesting....

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/11/20021124221123.shtml

BaghdadBob

May 7, 2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by GulGnu
As for the 970, it will be interesting to see if Apple goes Dual for the PM:s. Being able to stay single-processor, no longer lagging far behind Intel, the temptation to cut costs by sticking to a mostly SP line must be pretty strong. Oh well, hope they get em out for the WWDC...
Yes and no. I'm not sure a 1.8 GHz will not be faster than a 3.4 P4, but even if it's only close, having a DP model will give Apple the bragging rights of having the fastest consumer towers on the market...assuming they get enough DP software support. I'm all for it -- but I'm all for quad processors. ********'n-a man.

Will Doom III have MP support?!?!?

:o DROOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!! ohhhhh yeah....

aasmund

May 7, 2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by keithcobbett
I was under the impression that the 970 was quicker than the Power4. Am I not correct in assuming that? I just download the spec sheet that was above on somebody else's post and on Page 13, operating at 1GHz, the 970 was slower than the Power4???? Is this data correct or am I reading it incorrectly??? Please advise.

You are wrong :(

Power4 is enterprise class 64 bit processor, it's competitors are itanium, alpha axp, Sparc etc, much faster than any consumer chip available. it has several megabytes on die cache and the die size is a about 4 times that of the 970 the chip itself is about 3 times larger.

GulGnu

May 7, 2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
Yes and no. I'm not sure a 1.8 GHz will not be faster than a 3.4 P4, but even if it's only close, having a DP model will give Apple the bragging rights of having the fastest consumer towers on the market...assuming they get enough DP software support. I'm all for it -- but I'm all for quad processors. ********'n-a man.

Will Doom III have MP support?!?!?

:o DROOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!! ohhhhh yeah....

Good point, even though they'd be comparing apples to oranges, so to speak. (SP to MP) But what the hell, it's marketing - and if it works, I'm all for it =P (Apple really needs those PM sales)

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

PS.

Quad!?! Hehe, talk about overkill =P Prob with quads is ye're not getting that much more juice out of those last two processors, compared with the first two. But what the... if ye have money to burn...

DS.

scem0

May 7, 2003, 05:46 PM

Vniow has a nice rundown of their track-record. I dully recommend looking at it. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=26308)

-hh

May 7, 2003, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by blueBomber
Even still though, I'd love to see Apple bring back the "pentium smoking" campaign

I can think of two twists that would be big enough for Steve.

The first simply has to be my "Then I wake up in a Cold Sweat (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=266963&highlight=cold+sweat#post266963)" prediction from February.

The other is a play on words, but its been mentioned here as the "Blitzkreig" strategy. This play on words would be to describe what Apple's going to do to its competition (BTW, where's Michael Dell been lately? :p), and those words are: "Rip, Mix, Burn".

Now since the RIAA and Steve tells us not steal Intellectual Property or copyrighted works, he will of course need a licence agreement from me to use these ideas. I'm more than happy to oblige, although there is my fee: I do sometimes accept hardware for compensation in lieu of cash, and I'd suggest one new kickin' 970 Mac desktop with a worthy monitor, and one equally kickin' 970 Mac laptop, including OS, Warranty and delivery.

-hh

arn

May 7, 2003, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by deepkid
Isn't an "unverified rumor" redundant?

A verified rumor then becomes fact.

I disagree... however, I meant to say unverified source in my reply ... as I did in the actual article :)

So, you can extrapolate from that that an "unverified rumor" is a rumor from an "unverified source"...

arn

tgc

May 7, 2003, 06:13 PM

:confused:

he can't demo them too far before they're released can he?

If the performance is that much better, sales will plumet .. everyone waiting for them in the store! (me too!)

deepkid

May 7, 2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
No, an "unverified rumor" is redundant. An oxymoron is self-contradicting, such as holy war.

Edit: Editing your post to reflect my linguistic correction is cheating. You said "oxymoron" and you know it! :p

Come on. I responded and said "Right you are.". :) What's more important is clear communication.

mathiasr

May 7, 2003, 06:25 PM

deepkid

May 7, 2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by arn
I disagree... however, I meant to say unverified source in my reply ... as I did in the actual article :)

So, you can extrapolate from that that an "unverified rumor" is a rumor from an "unverified source"...

arn

Does an "unverified source" mean a tip from someone that's anonymous?

Even a visible journalist like David Coursey would have to produce hard evidence if he said something like "Apple will introduce the iTablet", or it would come off as op-ed (opinion/editorial) or simply speculation.

So that's why its entertaining when one purveyor of rumors criticizes another; its pot calling kettle.

In general, I think that we tend to get into trouble when people are unable to differentiate between rumor and fact when reading what's said and published.

While its entertaining and fun to read, it could (and has) cause real damage to Apple and others, if not received and handled properly.

ktlx

May 7, 2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by aasmund
You are wrong :(

Power4 is enterprise class 64 bit processor, it's competitors are itanium, alpha axp, Sparc etc, much faster than any consumer chip available. it has several megabytes on die cache and the die size is a about 4 times that of the 970 the chip itself is about 3 times larger.

A lot depends on the details and what you are trying to do.

For 32-bit integer operations, things that are benefited by SIMD units and some floating point operations, the UltraSPARC, POWER4, Itanium, Alpha and MIPS are beaten by the top of the line Pentium 4s. Look at the SPECint results for an example of this. The 64-bit processors mentioned have focused more on enterprise servers and therefore humble any Pentium 4 or G4 for running databases or large simulations. But for raw 32-bit integer calculation performance, nothing beats a Pentium 4 except maybe one of the new Athlon XPs.

But back to the original question. If you are talking about the POWER4 and not the POWER4+ and you are talking about software that runs on only a single core, the original data from IBM leads you to believe the PowerPC 970 is faster than the POWER4 for applications you will see on a desktop. And, if the application can be helped by the SIMD unit, it is likely there is no comparison.

Since IBM just announced taking the POWER4+ to 1.7Ghz, I find it hard to believe the PowerPC 970 at 1.8Ghz is faster in anything not helped by a SIMD unit. I think the huge L3 cache will outweigh everything but the SIMD unit.

noel4r

May 7, 2003, 06:48 PM

you think they'll release powermacs first then imacs, etc. or they'll release them all at the same time?

BaghdadBob

May 7, 2003, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by noel4r
you think they'll release powermacs first then imacs, etc. or they'll release them all at the same time?
ahem...
Has the makings of a good poll, if you ask me... :)

BWhaler

May 7, 2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by dongmin
As a comparison, this is what PC users have to look forward to:
(today's top pc-related announcements)

palladium (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=5&u=/ap/20030507/ap_on_hi_te/microsoft_secure_computing)

the iLoo (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=2&u=/ap/20030507/ap_on_hi_te/internet_toilet)
(could they be making fun of Apple here?)

Sorry for the off-topic post, but it was too funny to pass up...

Best post of the month.

No doubt about it. Laughed my butt off.

benoda

May 7, 2003, 10:45 PM

anyone think the 970 will show up in powerbooks come summer?

i suppose the only statement to support this is "this is the year of the notebook."

IVIIVI4ck3y27

May 7, 2003, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by mcs37
There best bet is to blitzkrieg the world with dual PPC970 machines, including dual PPC970 17" PowerBooks. If they wait around for their older machines to sell, they'll only hurt themselves more because people will be waiting for a PPC970 PowerBook (why buy a 1 Ghz G4 PB when you can wait a few months and get a 2 GHz PPC 970 PB?). In order to make a big splash this year ("of the laptop"), they need to throw everything they've got at us immediately. It worked for the Germans!

PPC970 from the information presented on it's specs was going to be too hot for notebooks. I think the laptops will remain G4 for the time being, likely with speed bumps until a future PPC 9xx variant is ready. Likely when they shrink the die size and make it more efficient than it is already (it's almost 1/2 way there now from the specs I saw), which for being a more "desktop-sized" processor (G4 is a small embedded-style processor with a SIMD core on the chip and some other goodies for supporting SMP), I pretty well expect that future variants won't be anywhere near as hot as the G4 laptops which have been ridiculously warm.

I do kind of expect the laptops to get a speed bump to approx. where the desktop G4's are in speed. I do think this is the end of the road for Motorola in Macs after the G4 does it's course. If IBM at any point fails... I figure Apple will move to Intel/AMD. I just don't see IBM failing...

Oh and on Xeon vs. PPC 970 pricing. Are you crazy? If the PPC 970 costs anywhere near what the Xeon does, the base machine will be coming out for around $2k, with the top of the line up around $3-4k for a single processor machine!!! LoL Not only do you have to factor the Xeon processor at $200+ a piece (and that's a rough guesstimate, the low-end quote we saw earlier was around $285), but you have to figure on a Xeon motherboard suitable to the task. Then fans for cooling it. Then the case. It's not just the processor price... it's the total cost of everything involved in making a machine at a factory. Parts aren't the only expenditures involved here... and that's why a low end Xeon isn't dirt cheap.

That isn't to say that a PPC 970 machine won't be damn near as expensive (hoping not)... if not more if all the rumored inclusions and goodies hold true as the motherboard technologies sounds quite amazing IMHO. Yet... my beliefs is the 970, which IBM is hoping to have shipping in it's own line of workstation/light server class machines, will be able to ship these machines in somewhere between June-September. Considering Apple has often dealt with September launches... that's a safe guesstimate, but... considering that the G4 desktop sales have been stagnant, I half-expect to see PPC 970's in the desktops and XServes, while we see all of the iMac/eMac/Powerbook/iBook get speed-bumped G4's... with the consumer desktops going as fast as they can go (with heat withstanding), much as the laptops. I don't foresee dual G4's in laptops unless Motorola has something up their sleeves, and I don't think a PPC 9xx laptop will happen before 2004.

It also makes even more sense (Apple moving to PPC 9xx) when you consider that the main reason IBM didn't sign on for the PowerPC G4 roadmap with Motorola was that they had "NO" interest in SIMD technologies. Linux and AIX don't take advantage of said technologies (very little point, none of the apps would either, and they're geared more towards servers where ::gasping:: as noted earlier, most server processors like Power4 and Itanium aren't focused on; comparing them to Pentium/Celeron, Athlon/Duron, and PowerPC is like comparing Hummer H2's to Ducati 999's; different applications, and both are performers in their classes at a specific pricepoint), and place more of their focus on ramped up processor speeds and focuses in other areas in terms of hardware and chip design. IBM's own 64-bit G3 (yes G3; IBM's had 64-bit chips dating back to the PowerPC 615, which was around the time of the 601, 602 [used in the Bandai Pippin @world], 603, and 604 computer processors and the various 5xx embedded chipsets) machines were more of a testament to this, as the 32-bit G3 was more for embedded... which if you really do your research, the G3 is one of the faster embedded-class processors you can find in terms of processor speed. Not that ARM is slow for it's application... it's just designed for a different application of the embedded market.

So the PPC 970 to me sits between the Pentium 4 and the Pentium 4 Xeon (faster than the P4, but slower than the Xeon at least at the initial Mhz, but working favorably for servers where the Xeon is not as strong; which works to IBM's and Apple's favor), while providing tremendous ability to scale, and likely at a more affordable pricepoint. I don't expect a PPC 970 PowerMac to sell for significantly more than the current Pro line. If not, I don't see it being viable until the prices come down.

The SIMD points an Apple tie is "IMMINENT", and pointed that as soon as I read that IBM was including one in the PPC 970. It was like a flag went off and it was obvious that Apple was involved. Since there's not a single "CONSUMER" Linux variant that uses SIMD, and there's not much inkling to support said technologies within the core of the system when you're dealing with a codebase designed to be ported for more workstation/server level stuff (across multiple platforms)... it kind of sticks out like a sore thumb.

The information released on MacAddict months ago added to the credibility of the rumor, when an IBM engineer spoke of faster yields and a summer launch for IBM machines. The information was "SWIFTLY" removed from the site... but by that time it was caught and printed. Just about every Mac rumors site was hopping with the info... and considering the information, it was a no-brainer. Apple cannot afford to make a major transition to anything right now, it's too soon. The fact the PPC 970 will read legacy code, and can be modified to be 64-bit savvy works well with Apple's XServe range of light servers, and works well as a workstation/desktop processor. Over time, I feel it'll make a great laptop processor as well.

To me it's not a question of "if" but "when". I figure before Christmas (after all, the shopping season leading up to Christmas is a big time for Apple, and could bolster their sales by setting Apple sailing into 2003 on a huuuuuuuuuuuge positive note, spurred by the new laptops from earlier this year, the iPod updates, the new iTunes Apple music store, and into 2004 with new PPC 9xx laptops, PPC 9xx consumer desktops, speedbumps to the new PPC 970 desktops, any other iDevices, and iTunes for Windows with Apple's iTunes Music store), but I'm not going to go out on MacBidouille's limb and say "Next day". Then again... as long as we've sat without a major change, I'm sure Apple's been doing more R&D than you can shake a stick at to get this out there. It might release then... it might release later... as long as "SOMETHING" releases though, it'll be good, no matter when it happens.

My guess is... if Apple indeed moves to PPC 970, which I expect, unless the hardware is ready by WWDC, we may not hear a whisper of it... but we may see remnants in early Panther builds (if Apple gives one out, which I'm skeptical on) that leak out. Apple wouldn't want to announce the move to PPC 970 before it happens, for the hopes they can milk a few more G4 sales up until the machines actually launch. Which could be late August or September.

So what I'm saying is... don't get too ramped up or wound up to get disappointed, but just go in knowing that this is more than likely the direction. It's just a matter of "when", not "if" it will happen, as I said earlier. If it happens by the end of the year... it's a "GREAT" thing. If it happens by Q2 of 2004, it's a "GOOD" thing... any later... and we'll be playing catch-up still, but at least we're playing catch-up with someone that has some interest in doing so. We don't need to be as fast or faster... just as long as we're "close", that's the important detail. Apple could easily rework OS X to be more efficient via threading (comparing OS X or XP to BeOS shows what I mean)... and the speed difference would go in our favor. It's not just raw processing power... it's how you maximize the power that's the big issue. OS X still has some areas it could be honed... and that could make all of the difference.

Hopefully the Panther/PPC 9xx combo brings us to the forefront. :)

suzerain

May 8, 2003, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by IVIIVI4ck3y27
PPC970 from the information presented on it's specs was going to be too hot for notebooks. I think the laptops will remain G4 for the time being, likely with speed bumps until a future PPC 9xx variant is ready. Likely when they shrink the die size and make it more efficient than it is already (it's almost 1/2 way there now from the specs I saw), which for being a more "desktop-sized" processor (G4 is a small embedded-style processor with a SIMD core on the chip and some other goodies for supporting SMP), I pretty well expect that future variants won't be anywhere near as hot as the G4 laptops which have been ridiculously warm.

Is this true? According to official IBM documentation, they pegged the 1.2 Ghz 970 at 19W, which is significantly cooler than the ~30W consumed by the current G4.

Keep in mind that 1.2 Ghz would be a speed bump for the PowerBook line, especially given that the 970 trounces the G4 on a per clock basis. (In other words, my point is, the laptops can't use the hotter 1.8 Ghz part, but the 1.2 would seem to be a good fit.)

Or is power consumption not necessarily related to heat dissipation? Or would it be the requirements of HyperTransport and DDR RAM that would be problematic?

According to the IBM docs I read, it would seem to me that this is the best possible notebook chip for Apple right now...unless my knowledge of how the chip interacts with everything is flaky.

IVIIVI4ck3y27

May 8, 2003, 12:42 AM

Last I read/interpreted... the G4's you are referring to are the desktop models (30w) for heat dissipation, while the laptop G4's are cooler than the 19w PPC 970 (I swear someone said like 12w for the current G4 laptops, the iBook is like 7w from what I read in that same thread/post). So the PPC 970, as it seems, is halfway there... if this indeed holds true. That's what I was making light of in the previous posting, when I said "they're halfway there already" in terms of heat, because I swore they were hotter than the hottest G4 laptop processor, but cooler than the hottest desktop G4 processor. Yes, there are different models of G4, so you have to check which one's which. I'm not sure how accurate the above is, but it's what I read somewhere and I just assumed it correct from the source that posted it. Mind you, the heat in the current G4's is said to be pretty overbearing, if it's really 12w, while the 7w iBook is said to be imperceptible almost. If the 9xx scales in heat very well, by next generation (assuming all of the above to be correct) it'd be a great laptop processor if they can eek out considerable more efficiency.

If not and the above was wrong (can't remember where I read it), then who knows... very well might see a 970 in just about everything, but something tells me it's not very likely. Not just for the heat reasons (although that's obvious), if they're true, but it's a matter of how many chips IBM's planning on running off too at one time until they get things chugging along (and mind you, IBM's going to be using these in their own servers too so that'll cut into what's available to Apple too).

I doubt we'll see Apple redo the whole line to new chips all at once, especially with just launching the revised eMac, which tells me that we'll likely see a new eMac sometimes in mid-late 2004. Maybe the iBook goes G4 with the eMac, and the iMac, with the iMac and eMac moving to 9xx next year.

Then the Powerbook (maybe not right away, as they just launched the G4 12" and 17" models, and there's bound to be a replacement for the Ti laptops soon), Desktops, and XServes go PPC 970... but my wager is from both a yield standpoint (how many 970's is Apple buying right off the bat? How many is IBM to use in their machines? How much is Apple willing to commit to the new processor off the bat when there's the potential for bugs with first gen. releases? How big is IBM's production facility? etc. etc.), as well as a costs standpoint.

For Powerbooks it might be feasible (although right now, doubtful)... but iBook? Not likely... eMac? Not likely... and they just launched Powerbooks a few months back, the desktops to me are lonnnnnng overdue and the first to get the new processors, and between them and the XServes, they're the most likely for a major update because they're the highest of the high end of the line, and the most suitable for major grunt power beyond efficiency, which the 970 promises.

So I figure uprated XServes are a given since they're the one's that could best maximize the 64-bit side... and help make Apple a very strong entry-level server option.

Followed by the Pro Desktops and their desktop-based Server variants which are a given with their sluggish sales and their professional-level need in design houses.

I figure Apple will likely reserve 970's strictly for high end workstations/servers, and leave consumer desktops to G4 for the time being. "ESPECIALLY" if the heat stuff that I'd read (can't remember where I read it, but I'd heard someone mention that when the PPC 9xx moves to a smaller die size, it'll be cooler and more suitable for laptops [someone blathered something about PPC 980 being just this when I saw it]) holds true, which I swear someone told me that the G4, while cooler than it's PC brethren in the laptop industry (where fried laps are the norm), at it's most efficient "Powerbook" variations are still cooler than the coolest PPC 9xx.

It's just that the desktop G4's that we're seeing right now are WAAAAAAAY too hot for laptops. That's also why it's not very likely to see them in laptops when the pro desktop models move to PPC 970 IMHO. The laptops will likely require a shrunken die 9xx down the road or a shrunken die G4 uprated on speed (as in, right when the 970 machines ship). Either are likely... but I figure the shrunken die G4 is more likely quicker, while the 9xx likely would be mid-late 2004 I'd guess.

rog

May 8, 2003, 01:14 AM

This is all so out of control. When has any rumor site ever been correct weeks or months in advance. Hmmm, can't think of anytime and I've been following all the rumor sites for the last 8 years or so.

ultrafiel

May 8, 2003, 01:59 AM

Ok, if PowerMac 970s are released in June, there is a simple way to get one for basically free. All you have to do is buy enough shares of Apple Stock right now, and sell it a few weeks/months after the 970 comes out. You should make enough to get one of those machines. I contribute this to the fact that basically 2/3 (or more) of the posters on this board and elsewhere said they will buy one. I will be really tempted to do so also.

IVIIVI4ck3y27

May 8, 2003, 02:18 AM

Depends on how vague some of the rumors are, some are so logical rog that they fit like a puzzle. Then again, some information being "FACT" paints the picture quite nicely. I'm not arguing specs for everything... just arguing that the facts are there, the evidence is pointing it as such, and what it looks like or when it ships is still "Rampant speculation".

True, most stuff is kept so tightly under wraps it's hard to get a hold of, but the IBM deal isn't just a passing whim and wasn't a "RUMOR" but a factual tidbit that was presented by IBM to the masses. As in, it wasn't hidden. Therefore... if you can put 2 + 2 together... 4 comes screaming out in a hurry when you get the ol' comprehension working.

If they're releasing processors that are announced with AltiVec-compatible SIMD technology, which they "ARE" (not a matter of *IF* but *WHEN*)... it's obvious "WHY". There's not many other applications for this technology, it's obvious Motorola is lagging behind. It's obvious Apple's not primed and ready for a change to Intel/AMD (not an easy port with Carbon hanging around [ask Quark and Adobe]; and what of supporting the old PPC platform as well as the x86 platform at the same time... it'd be a mess). It's obvious from IBM's previous lack of interest in SIMD (it's why they split from the G4 roadmap ::gasping::) that something had to change their mind; since they continued to evolve the G3 in both 32-bit and 64-bit form with more emphasis on 64-bit for their servers; especially with Apple "HOPING" to bank the farm on G4 (which didn't work bad, but not as much as Apple had hoped). It's obvious that Linux/AIX isn't geared towards SIMD nor does SIMD have any viable rationale to IBM as a whole as they're not a "WORKSTATION" company on anything but ::gasping:: Intel, where MMX is available, and where Windows XP takes advantage of it.

Yet for Apple:

OS X uses a lot of AltiVec calls just in the system alone, being that ubiquitous "VELOCITY ENGINE" They always taunt.

64-bit benefits both IBM and Apple in servers, like Apple's XServe. The fact that it's MP-capable, means we could be seeing Dual Processor Servers and Workstations. IBM might even go crazy and use more...

Having another customer to offset the costs benefits IBM, as it reduces development costs and gives them a customer to recoup some of the investment in the technology. IBM lost quite a bit of this when they ixnayed on the G4, and if Apple dumps PowerPC altogether... they'd lose out "COMPLETELY". Apple supporting multiple processor platforms? Not likely. Most people aren't as stupid as Dvorak, and most can see how counter productive this truly is. More likely to see an evolution of the rumored PowerPC 615 technology that fused a x86 core into a 64-bit PPC. Once again... didn't happen then, not too likely now. The added cost and inefficiencies would make it more of a nightmare than sorting the G4 out was for Motorola.

Apple needs an alternative to the ever-slipping Motorola, who struggles with G4's and has from last information I saw... killed the G5. If Apple sticks with Motorola... what are they going to run? G4's? What comes after that? How do you keep pace with your competition?

Answer: You don't.

The PPC 970 is reverse compatible with the previous Apple processors, meaning it can run 32-bit code as is, like... RIGHT NOW. Moving to anything else would require more rewriting of the OS, porting of applications "YET AGAIN", etc. etc. Not a fun task when you just "FINALLY" are setting up shop on PPC, and still have yet to optimize some of the threadings in the system.

So, like I said prior... I don't want anyone on this thread to go out saying "WHOOPEEEE PPC 970 MACHINES TOMORROW! I'M ORDERING!!", but I am saying that if you pay attention to what's going on... it's quite obvious which direction things are going in. SIMD is of little use to IBM as there's not enough applications (much less an Operating System) to make usage of it, and it's not an area that IBM focuses much on. Their workstations are mostly Intel-based, running XP (MMX with support from Microsoft, who is the leading workstation vendor out there with the many CAD and Rendering programs out there running on it). Their servers however run on all manners of processors, and use either Linux or XP on their Itanium line, or AIX or Linux on their PowerPC, or Power4 line. Then they have a whole gamut that use other server OS's that are non-PPC/Power but IBM designed nonetheless.

None of which need SIMD.

Linux/POSIX apps. are written to be portable. They rarely call anything specific in terms of assembly-style code (in fact, Unix is a derivative of C). SIMD units in and of themselves are vector processors that are unique to their platform. This doesn't fall into line with Linux/POSIX apps... and a big part of why IBM avoided it in the past.

Get the message?

Who else could want a large desktop-sized processor that's more geared towards servers or workstations, that has a unique non-x86 architecture and works with SIMD?

Not Microsoft... they ditched on PowerPC after NT4.

BeOS? Done. They were focusing on Intel/AMD anyhow...

Palm? They're moving to ARM. Plus this would be farrrrrrrr too inefficient for PDA's. Even the G3 is out of it's league in this area, where Digital DNA (another Motorola chipset) is more geared.

So that's the point... this isn't as much a rumor as it is a fact that fits in a certain place that "NOONE" is talking about, at least not within the companies anyhow. LOGIC dictates where it's going... but what the final piece looks like is a mystery.

Yet if you tabulate and look at things as they stand...

Apple recently launched new Powerbooks, with the Ti laptops due to be changed, it's only a matter of time I feel before Apple launches the mid-level Aluminum Powerbook to slot between the 12" and 17" models and replace the Titanium model. This might even come around the time Apple ups the processor speeds, which I expect more than a processor switch.

Apple just launched new eMacs with "BRAND NEW" motherboard architectures... which to me means it's not highly likely for a drastic change for a bit.

Apple will likely launch new iMacs with updated innards...

The machines that haven't been updated much?

Desktops. Lonnnnnng overdue, and slow-selling. The area that is most awaited. When you compare the G4 to the P4, it's losing ground fast. Even the AMD low-end offerings (Duron) are closing in on the G4. The G4 is still comparable to the PC laptop market, but in the desktop... they're behind *RIGHT NOW*. The Mac as an OS is a better OS, but with the hardware it's saddled with... ounce for ounce, the G4 with a superior OS is getting beat at some tasks in the hallmark apps like Photoshop and After Effects/Premiere to what Apple can do with Photoshop, Final Cut Pro, and After Effects on Mac. That's a biggggggggg deal when this is your market.

The XServes were recently updated, but if the desktop is more powerful than your servers... you might have problems. Plus the 64-bit nature of the processor would help with server-based functionality in terms of storage and database number crunching. This is the "HIGH END" of AphÕj‘ so it's only logical that they will be replaced faster if something new processor-wise comes along that is more powerful.

iBooks. They're still on G3's, and I'm pretty sure they're bound for a lower-end G4 here soon. If it is faster than the Powerbook line... why would anyone buy the Powerbook? It might even share it's architecture with the Powerbook lineup that's out there now, just coming with slower processors and a DVD-ROM or CD-ROM vs. getting a Superdrive or Combo drive like the Powerbook lineup. It however might be available with a Combo drive as an option on a model or something. I just doubt we'll see Apple selling these things for a hefty price, and I doubt Superdrives will be an option "RIGHT NOW".

It's not rocket science. I'm not discussing enclosure designs, not saying anything about Cube shaped desktops or all aluminum enclosures. It's the simple stuff that you can just logically piece together based on what's out there. IBM has no reason to be adding SIMD to a processor lineup if they're not courting a customer that can actually make usage of it. The fact that IBM themselves have said that "IT IS" backwards compatible with AltiVec also has to make you scratch your head. This isn't "RUMOR" or "SPECULATION" but "FACT".

IBM will use the PPC 970 (AS IS) but... will they make usage of the SIMD portion?

I don't think so.

Yet, having it on the chipset helps Apple out, offsets some of the costs, and gives IBM a bigger slice of a pie that they once held a larger share of. Now they might have the whole damn pie before too long, while Motorola sits on the outside looking in, perhaps even leaving the PowerPC fray as a PC processor maker, and just focusing their efforts on embedded applications, which is actually a bigger market than Apple believe it or not. IBM isn't so much embedded with their chips, and is a better fit to Apple. Always was, always will be. After all, the Power in PowerPC comes from the fact that the PowerPC was based on the Power line of processors, like the Power3 and Power4 and forthcoming Power5. IBM is more geared towards servers because, for them, that's where the $ is at. Much as it is for Sun. Much as it is for SGI, HP, Intel (Itanium), et al.

So like I said... it's a "WHEN" not an "IF"... but that could be anytime from WWDC to Q2 2004. Don't get all hyped, but if Apple can release with a September date at the latest... that's in the prime shopping time of the year (Christmas) and would help Apple "STRONGLY" on sales into 2004.

Shaktai

May 8, 2003, 02:34 AM

Here is the latest tidbits from MacBidouille, quoting a different source:

The mother charts PPC 970 would have 6 NCV in addition to the AGP and can be a chart Its 5.1. The Bus would be well given rhythm to 200 MHz with support of GDR 3200. (note except rumour: the 6 NCV can explain information on a chart all in length)

According to an internal source with IBM, the PPC 970 much will surprise the public. (the collection of this information is former to the publication of the benchs).

If I understand this correctly, that is 6 PCI slots plus an AGP running at 200mhz bus and PC3200 RAM.

Seems to me, that one of the future stumbling blocks for the 970 may be getting "fast enough" affordable RAM to keep up. Then of course other manufacturers will face the same problem. I suspect IBM and Apple are already on top of that challenge though.

:D

negrito

May 8, 2003, 05:12 AM

as said: wait and see...

information can always be interpreted...nice to see that people are chilled down.

Panther

May 8, 2003, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by benoda
anyone think the 970 will show up in powerbooks come summer?

i suppose the only statement to support this is "this is the year of the notebook." My money says that is what the twist is... that they'll announce the 15" AlBook... with a 970. Year of the notebook indeed.

Works for me. I got my PowerMac last November - spent around $3500 all told, and I'm a little upset that the 970 is about to obsolete it... but I was already planning to get the 15" AlBook when it comes out, so having that be 970 based would more than compensate.

Here's hoping :D

voltron_leadr

May 8, 2003, 07:54 AM

eric67

May 8, 2003, 09:06 AM

Dear all,

I think macbidouille news regarding the PPC970 might indeed be true regarding at least the date, just check the last announcement from Apple itself

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/may/08wwdc.html

our looprumors.com : http://www.looprumors.com/

I am not saying that MB benchmarks are entirely true but we might expect to see Panther demoed by Steve itself during the keynote, and if it is the case it needs an computer to run it.....

Frobozz

May 8, 2003, 09:25 AM

Hi all,

In an effort to curb my daily Babelfish translations of Macbidouille, I've produced a small AppleScript that will grab today's date, and encode it in the URL to BabelFish MacBidouille's daily news page. In other words, it's automatically going to get you today's Macbidouille news page in English no matter what day it is, and open it in your preferred browser.

Obviously, this is a quick AppleScript, so don't contact me with support questions. It's provided "as is." I have included 2 versions: one executable and one editable. You may edit it if it's broken on your machine or you'd like different functionality. It was made on OS X, so I'm not sure if it'll work on OS 9.

This software makes a lot of assumptions concerning the date format it receives... no error checking... so if you get a problem that's almost certainly it. Should be easy to follow to fix it, though!

Happy translating!

Translate Today's Macbidouille News (http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyyoung/TranslateMacbidouille.sit)

eric67

May 8, 2003, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by Frobozz
Hi all,

In an effort to curb my daily Babelfish translations of Macbidouille, I've produced a small AppleScript that will grab today's date, and encode it in the URL to BabelFish MacBidouille's daily news page. In other words, it's automatically going to get you today's Macbidouille news page in English no matter what day it is, and open it in your preferred browser.

Translate Today's Macbidouille News (http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyyoung/TranslateMacbidouille.sit)

nice work but I think Macbidouille is setting up an english version of their news page, planned for very soon

Frobozz

May 8, 2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by eric67
nice work but I think Macbidouille is setting up an english version of their news page, planned for very soon

Sweet. Eh... it only took me about 20 minutes to hack together a couple existing scripts I had around. :-P

deepkid

May 8, 2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by rog
This is all so out of control. When has any rumor site ever been correct weeks or months in advance. Hmmm, can't think of anytime and I've been following all the rumor sites for the last 8 years or so.

Think Secret has a pretty established track record.

deepkid

May 8, 2003, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by ultrafiel
Ok, if PowerMac 970s are released in June, there is a simple way to get one for basically free. All you have to do is buy enough shares of Apple Stock right now, and sell it a few weeks/months after the 970 comes out. You should make enough to get one of those machines. I contribute this to the fact that basically 2/3 (or more) of the posters on this board and elsewhere said they will buy one. I will be really tempted to do so also.

Make sure that you have a good understanding of capital gains tax. You are likely to owe the IRS 28% on any profit you make from the sale of a stock, if you held the stock for less than a year. You'll likely owe at least 20% even if you hold the stock a year before selling it for a profit. Its not a bad idea to calculate 28% of what you made on the stock and expect to pay that next year at tax time.

But don't take my word for it, read it for yourself here http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=106799,00.html

Example:

1. Bought 100 shares of AAPL at $10 on May 1, 2003. Shares bought, cost $1,000

2. Sold 100 shares of AAPL at $12 on May 15, 2003. Shares sold, collected $1,200

$200 gain x 28% = $56 owed to the IRS.
Your profit is really $144.

dongmin

May 8, 2003, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by hvfsl
Only a dual PPC970 will be able to beat the new P4 3.4Ghz which is meant to come out around June. But PCs will still be faster since they will have dual 3.4Ghz will Macs will have dual 1.8Ghz. There is no way the PPC970 can be fast enough to take the speed crown back from PCs straight away, I expect we will have to wait for the PPC980 to see that.

I'm not so sure about this. I just took a look at Tom's Hardware's comparison of a dual Xeon 3.06 versus a dual Opteron 1.8 ghz versus a P4 3.06ghz (http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20030422/opteron-25.html). The dual Xeon is definitely faster than a P4 on most tests, but the advantage varies greatly depending on the application (obviously). The biggest advantage is in a Cinema 4D test: the dual Xeon is about 90% faster.

Now, we don't have any real benchmarks to go by for the 970, but if we say a 1.8 ghz 970 is roughly equivalent to a P4 at 3ghz (they're close in SPEC scores and Apple could potentially provide faster bus, memory, etc.), then a dual 1.8 ghz 970 should be roughly equivalent to a dual Xeon at 3 ghz. This is all pure speculation at this point but I think I'm basing this on some resonable assumptions.

Of course, there is also the possibility that Apple will go for the jugular and release a high-end workstation (i.e. the 'Xstation') using something like a dual 2.3 ghz 970 which would blow the door off any dual Xeon.

Kai

May 8, 2003, 12:23 PM

Dude, I realize you're enthusiastic and all that, but you SERIOUSLY need to shorten your postings! ;-)
I am keen to read it, but your sentences are like 3 times as long as mine (and I've been told mine are way too long already!) and you often fail to just get your points across. You just go on and on and on and on and at the end of the sentence i totally forgot what you were trying to say in the beginning! ;-)

You seem pretty knowledgable, so it'd be a shame to let a potentially interesting read go to waste by neverending hard to read sentences that "trail everywhere besides the path" aswell! ;-)

allpar

May 8, 2003, 01:58 PM

...some of us like a good, well-reasoned argument. I can get sound bytes from TV.

IVIIVI4ck3y27

May 8, 2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Kai
Dude, I realize you're enthusiastic and all that, but you SERIOUSLY need to shorten your postings! ;-)
I am keen to read it, but your sentences are like 3 times as long as mine (and I've been told mine are way too long already!) and you often fail to just get your points across. You just go on and on and on and on and at the end of the sentence i totally forgot what you were trying to say in the beginning! ;-)

You seem pretty knowledgable, so it'd be a shame to let a potentially interesting read go to waste by neverending hard to read sentences that "trail everywhere besides the path" aswell! ;-)

Understandable Kai, but let's for a second go under the presumption that I go in and edit for brevity (mind you, I'm not writing for MacWorld or getting paid the salary to edit it down). It'd take what... an extra 5-10 minutes to shorten the posting's wordiness, and then figure out what information/details to gut out which could truncate and leave people making false presumptions because I've restricted myself. It could take upwards of 20-30 minutes for one posting that only took me 3-5 to write (I type reeeeeeally fast). Rather than do that, the people have a choice of reading it, as-is, if they truly care to read... or they don't have to, could skim it, skim past it, ignore it, etc. etc.

Let's put it this way... as enthusiastic as some are on here, they'd read what I say if it was Stephen King length (a few hundred pages). If you can't keep up or can't remember where I'm going, re-read it. If not, oh well... you probably wouldn't read, understand, or care if it was 5-10 words. :)

It's a messageboard... not a pictures page. :) If you didn't come here to read, why are you here? Y'know? For those that don't care to read it... that's their prerogative. I'm not holding a gun to their head. ;) I can't please everybody, and I am not aiming to. :) LoL If it came down to that, and I had to edit my postings to please everybody, I just wouldn't post. It'd be too much like work, and this is more of a "leisure time" activity.

IVIIVI4ck3y27

May 8, 2003, 02:28 PM

http://www.ibm.com/news/us/2002/10/14.html

If you read that for what it says right there... you'll see that the underlying writing I spoke of above is there, and this is an "OFFICIAL" press announcement. Of course, it mentions that it'll be available "NEXT YEAR" which is another reason to try to keep your jets cooled. They might be ahead of schedule (perhaps at Apple's urging)...

But they might not. Why set yourself up to be disappointed?

Which is why I even gave until Q2 on the speculation, saying that, that'd be a "GOOD" time (although, right now would be totally awesome LoL), and it'd fit the "Year of the Powerbook" claims as the desktops and XServes wouldn't likely see major changes 'til sometime in 2004, and Powerbooks I don't figure are very likely for the PPC 970 based on the previous "heat" statements. Disappointing that no PPC 970 might be announced? Perhaps... but I'm sure IBM's trying their damnedest to get these out as fast as they can. You can only do so much...

After all, the faster they get them to market, the faster IBM and Apple can use them to bowl their competition, rather than buoy or merely keep pace. Which obviously... the more speed advantage you get overall, the better off you are. I really feel the PPC 970 will be "competitive" at current 1.2-1.8 Ghz speeds even into around May-June 2004, if not longer. It's not just the speed of the processor, it's the architecture and how swift it is. Way it sounds with Hypertransport and all of the other goodies like the bus, faster PCI, faster AGP, faster RAM, et al. this could be quite wicked.

Even at that launch, it'd not be a bad deal, as we'd be on par, if not the leader with some OS fine-tuning to get some efficiency out of the ol' OS. That could be why Apple got this...

http://news.com.com/2100-1041-991061.html

Steve Sakoman, who not only worked on Apple with their "Newton" project, but was an executive (and engineer) at Be Inc. who made one of the most efficient and threaded desktop OS's, in BeOS. He also briefly worked at Palm after they took over Be Inc. as noted at the bottom of the page. I place more emphasis on his knowledge from Be than the Palm deal (wasn't there for a tremendously long time, rather brief actually), although it's obvious that the iPod eventually is taking on more and more tasks, and could branch into a bunch of other iDevices; which likely had to lure Sakoman over in some vain.

Yet in the end... getting a highly threaded Mac OS with someone who's obviously knowledgeable in such manners (once again, Sakoman) could make OS X run significantly faster on existing older hardware (a G4 could be more than bearable, and a 970 would literally fly), and furthermore... make the newer hardware seem that much faster. After all, NT (Windows 2k, XP, et al.) gets more and more bloated and slow with each release (much as Classic Mac OS did for some of us who ran it on older hardware before)... Apple turns back the clock on their efficiency, Microsoft will need Intel to be 2x's as fast just to keep pace, all the while increasing speed but also adding features to the system that don't tax it or make it crumble under the added weight.

It's not strict hardware gluttony that makes a fast computer (ask any Amiga Aficianado, they'll tell you), although being on pace in hardware holds the potential to make an advantage out of a slight deficiency in Ghz/Mhz, through efficiency and fine-tuning. Be did it, so could Apple. Running an older build of BeOS from CD-ROM (demo disc) on a 233 Mhz. PII vs. Windows NT 4, BeOS was "NOTICEABLY" faster. Just imagine if it was running from a hard disk...

For anyone that's used BeOS on Intel or PowerPC, you know the speed advantage it had over just about anything you could throw at it, including Classic Mac OS on "LIKE/SAME" hardware (as in older 604e and 603e machines). Given an efficiency formula with OS X in the "threadedness" of the system, if the PPC 970 ships a little late and is a "little" behind it's competition; as long as it's "ballpark", the operating system's efficiency can make up for it and make it seem like the clear winner overall.

Shaktai

May 8, 2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by IVIIVI4ck3y27
http://www.ibm.com/news/us/2002/10/14.html

.... Of course, it mentions that it'll be available "NEXT YEAR" which is another reason to try to keep your jets cooled. They might be ahead of schedule (perhaps at Apple's urging)...

Small point perhaps, but that was released in October of 2002. We are now in 2003. This is the "next year" referred to. Based upon that statement, it could be released anytime in 2003. Summer is about as good a time as any.

Actual production geared up in April. Finished chips (not just prototypes) were shipping by the end of April. Assembly lines could be shipping finished product by the end of May. Inventory builds in Warehouses through June. Announced around WWDC towards the end of June. July brings immediate availbility of at least part of the line. (still skeptical about the PowerBook and high end Power Mac availability but willing to be surprised.)

Panther will not be required, but will bring some performance increase when released, just because it will be better optimized for the 970.

IVIIVI4ck3y27

May 8, 2003, 05:02 PM

Good point Shaktai, I hadn't really paid much attention to the date on that article. Perhaps MacBidouille is on the mark based on that point. :) Be nice if it indeed holds true. Love to see the Mac trump the PC's on performance again, and if it launches then... it more than likely would. :)

Not too unfeasible after all...

MisterMe

May 8, 2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by IVIIVI4ck3y27
Understandable Kai, but let's for a second go under the presumption that I go in and edit for brevity (mind you, I'm not writing for MacWorld or getting paid the salary to edit it down). It'd take what... an extra 5-10 minutes to shorten the posting's wordiness, and then figure out what information/details to gut out which could truncate and leave people making false presumptions because I've restricted myself. It could take upwards of 20-30 minutes for one posting that only took me 3-5 to write (I type reeeeeeally fast). Rather than do that, the people have a choice of reading it, as-is, if they truly care to read... or they don't have to, could skim it, skim past it, ignore it, etc. etc.

Let's put it this way... as enthusiastic as some are on here, they'd read what I say if it was Stephen King length (a few hundred pages). If you can't keep up or can't remember where I'm going, re-read it. If not, oh well... you probably wouldn't read, understand, or care if it was 5-10 words. :)

It's a messageboard... not a pictures page. :) If you didn't come here to read, why are you here? Y'know? For those that don't care to read it... that's their prerogative. I'm not holding a gun to their head. ;) I can't please everybody, and I am not aiming to. :) LoL If it came down to that, and I had to edit my postings to please everybody, I just wouldn't post. It'd be too much like work, and this is more of a "leisure time" activity. I agree with Kai. When I encounter one of your posts, I try to read it. After a while, however, I jump to the next post. You ask a rather silly question about whether or not Kai came here to read. Some people like to read War and Peace, some people like to read USA Today. Just because Kai prefers to read short writings doesn't mean that he should not read at all. The Gettysburg Address was one of the greatest American Presidential speeches of all time. It is shorter than virtually anything that you have ever posted here.

BaghdadBob

May 8, 2003, 07:08 PM

I'm just going to jump in here and say that for those of us who are verbose, type fast, and have a lot to say, the temptation to write long posts is great.

But it's a good habit to break (as a habit).

IVIIVI4ck3y27

May 8, 2003, 07:39 PM

That's fine then, don't read my posts. I don't particularly care. :) Yet it seems some people do...

That's their prerogative. More power to them.

The point is if you came here to read short bite-sized postings, be my guest. Just ignore my postings altogether, and scroll on by. No matter how long my postings, the threads you see here will take the same amount of time to load, because ::gasping:: they're based on overall length.

Yet, don't b!tch at those that exert their constitutional rights to write as they see fit, in the way that they write. If you don't wish to read my postings, don't. You can scroll right on by, skim it, or ignore it altogether... I DID MAKE LIGHT OF THAT as an option, so exert your constitutional rights to do what ever the h-e-double-hockeysticks you wish. If you wish to berate me for writing a lot, I have every entitlement to create a rebuttal of similar fashion for your pettiness and bigotry towards those who elect to not be "brief". I'm not bashing you for writing short postings, am I? I could... but I really don't care. I read everything as it comes in, short or long... it's not a problem to me. Apparently it is to some. Probably the same group that would b!tch about the cost of tea in China, without even living there. Some people just need something to b!tch about, because they're not happy unless they're b!tching. More power to 'em! LoL At least they're keeping occupied I reckon.

If you wish to not come as a pomphous asinine jerk, then don't be one... just ignore what I have to say and move on. It's not that hard... otherwise... you get what you put in. I'm not changing who I am or how I post for anybody... because as I said earlier, if I have to put in extra efforts to bend over backwards for people like yourself, who I can really care very little about (judging by their mutual attitudes)... then perhaps I should put in extra effort to be like the Jehovah's witnesses that come knock on my door? Perhaps I should make an extra effort to walk like you, talk like you, act like you, wear the same clothes as you... get the message?

Here, let me make it clearer:

I'm me, you're you... don't like what I say or do... don't. :) It's your right. It's also my right to do as I wish, as long as it doesn't inflict damage to you or violate any laws.

Just for the record, I was being "polite" to Kai... because he was ;-) I was :)

Care to take this up with me, e-mail me, that's what the link is there for right? Or should I turn this into a flamewar for you for violating a rule of netiquette worse than lack of brevity? That being, changing the subject from it's original intents, as well as taking a personal matter up in public, and showing your @ss. You've chosen to violate 2...

Now... back to the original topic.

Panther

May 8, 2003, 08:34 PM

OK people... lets remember why we're here... (hint: its not to start laying into each other...)

mak_suzu1

May 9, 2003, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Panther
My money says that is what the twist is... that they'll announce the 15" AlBook... with a 970. Year of the notebook indeed.

Works for me. I got my PowerMac last November - spent around $3500 all told, and I'm a little upset that the 970 is about to obsolete it... but I was already planning to get the 15" AlBook when it comes out, so having that be 970 based would more than compensate.

Here's hoping :D

I observed there are 4 voices (wishes) on 970Book.
(a) Next year. (b) Late this year just 1G Hz. (c) Soon 1.2GHz (130nm). and (d) Soon, likely September, higher clock (90nm).
I am an optimist, and am believing case (d). Because - 90 nm process will be up and running full speed at IBM factory, quite soon.
see - http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/news/2002/1216_xilinx.html

This is my first post. javascript:smilie(':)')

deepkid

May 9, 2003, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by MisterMe
I agree with Kai. When I encounter one of your posts, I try to read it. After a while, however, I jump to the next post. You ask a rather silly question about whether or not Kai came here to read. Some people like to read War and Peace, some people like to read USA Today. Just because Kai prefers to read short writings doesn't mean that he should not read at all. The Gettysburg Address was one of the greatest American Presidential speeches of all time. It is shorter than virtually anything that you have ever posted here.

What's wrong with you people? If you don't like the lengths of his posts, scroll. I can't believe some of the things people complain about.

Its really harrassment to ridicule his posts because of length. Some of us just express differently. Asking him to whip up a fast food post instead of making his own from scratch stinks much like a wintel braggart telling a mac user to dump his toy mac in the trash and use a real computer.

Act different.

allpar

May 9, 2003, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by deepkid
What's wrong with you people? If you don't like the lengths of his posts, scroll. I can't believe some of the things people complain about.

Absolutely totally agree.

He posts some of the most intelligent analysis here.

Far better than the crowd that jumps on any mention of OS 9 with cries of "get with the program, you old fool!"

Perhaps only the foul-mouthed and offensive posts should be criticized - but these often seem to be the ones that are accepted by everyone.

BTW my general rule of thumb isi that if I am criticized by people who can use logic and language, I am probably wrong. If I am criticized by people who can only send mis-spelled, ungrammatical hate mail, I am probably right.

Frobozz

May 9, 2003, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by allpar
Absolutely totally agree.

Perhaps only the foul-mouthed and offensive posts should be criticized - but these often seem to be the ones that are accepted by everyone.

Good point. I just add those foul-mouthed types to my Ignore List. After you receive the same tired "you're wrong because..." response from the _same_ people with the _same_ misinformation you start to realize the power of the "Ignore List." I excercise my right to get to the good posts. ;-)

Kamu-San

May 12, 2003, 08:05 AM

Did you guys already see this article at www.ibm.com?

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A2CE393ABF2CE99787256D21006AE8A2/$file/PPC970_MPF_Review.pdf

It's a 3rd part article an it says that volume production of the 970 starts at 2H2003...
Nice article.

ClimbingTheLog

May 21, 2003, 04:17 PM

I bet they're going to do the new Photoshop Wintel-besting test with a new dual-970, it'll trounce a price-competive PC, then they'll pull the cover off, and, "why, you're a bloody Powerbook!"

RC23

May 21, 2003, 07:14 PM

woah.. when do i get to post a topic :\

excalibur313

Jun 8, 2003, 12:44 AM

Does this mean that this will be available on powerbooks?
Thanks
Excalibur313

thedude

Jun 8, 2003, 01:37 AM

I know this might be a bit of a stretch, but here goes nothing...

A longer and narrower MB design for the 970...
A few extra ports...(FC? maybe...maybe not)
A looming PB upgrade...
The year ofthe laptop...

do you think they'll intro the 970 in a PB? then slide the 970 throughout the lineup then intro the 980 in powermacs in early 2004?

hm....

just a thought...:rolleyes:

2112

Jun 8, 2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by thedude
I know this might be a bit of a stretch, but here goes nothing...

A longer and narrower MB design for the 970...
A few extra ports...(FC? maybe...maybe not)
A looming PB upgrade...
The year ofthe laptop...

dunno if that what we will get, but it surely adds up nicely ... although it doesn't fit with other rumors, such as the 8 RAM slots, or PCI slots ...

ZeeOwl

Jun 9, 2003, 07:59 AM

"The box said Windows 95 or
better, so I got a Mac."

Hahahahaha! That is hilarious!