PDA

View Full Version : We are a violent, violent country


lmalave
May 8, 2003, 02:58 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/05/08/hs.hazing/index.html

morlium
May 8, 2003, 03:26 PM
yeah, man.

i saw this video last night and I was horrified. as a student of feminism and a firm believer in the female form, it's hard to swallow.

macfan
May 8, 2003, 03:28 PM
Hazing has actually been declining for some time according to the "hazing expert" I saw interviewed yesterday.

I guess these girls wanted "equal opportunity."

Rower_CPU
May 8, 2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by macfan
Hazing has actually been declining for some time according to the "hazing expert" I saw interviewed yesterday.

I guess these girls wanted "equal opportunity."

And I guess the police officers who were there (seen in the video) were there to make sure they had a chance to exercise their opportunity in safety. It's really sad what human beings are capable of doing to each other...

uhlawboi80
May 8, 2003, 04:19 PM
whoa, that story was NOT ok. seriously. And of course the principal supports criminal charges....hes praying to save his own a$$.

the most f---ed up part of that was that spectators, including males joined in!! Im just glad they used the term male, as no MAN would jump up and start beating up a group of high school girls sitting on the ground!!

jelloshotsrule
May 8, 2003, 04:48 PM
anyone know of a site where i can see the video for free? or at least the interview with them

uhlawboi80
May 8, 2003, 04:58 PM
yeah, i couldnt see the video..sorry, im a student, im not about ot pay for CNN.com so i can watch video clips!

if anyone knows of a place where it can be seen free, id like to know too

skunk
May 8, 2003, 05:07 PM
To a foreigner, this is quite inexplicable. What is "touch-football"? The report is completely meaningless to me. What is this barbaric ritual MEANT to be? Do parents and teachers know what goes on? Is this considered a GOOD THING? Is it meant to teach something valuable? WTF??? :confused:

JesseJames
May 8, 2003, 05:17 PM
Ever see the movie "Dazed and Confused"?

skunk
May 8, 2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by JesseJames
Ever see the movie "Dazed and Confused"?
No. Should that be "hazed and confused"? ;) What IS "hazing", anyway?

wdlove
May 8, 2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by skunk
No. Should that be "hazed and confused"? ;) What IS "hazing", anyway?

Here is a link about hazing, stophazing.org! It gives information about high school, fraternity, sorority, & military hazing.

http://www.stophazing.org/

WinterMute
May 8, 2003, 05:46 PM
It's a lot like the ritual humiliations that go on in rugby clubs, where a new member will get a tube of Ralgex up his arse, or a chance to drink his own piss, same with the army, pain and humiliation to "prove" you're one of the gang.

I saw the video on the BBC last night, I've seen drug wars less vicious than that, I think it got way out of hand and no-one appeared able to stop.

Mob mentality at it's worst, but more disturbing for the fact these are school girls.

kylos
May 8, 2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by lmalave
We are a violent, violent country

No, those are violent, violent girls.

uhlawboi80
May 8, 2003, 06:42 PM
kyle? is right...those dozen girls do not a country make. "We" arent necessarily violent, but like everywhere, we have people who are violent. And really, everyone has the ability to be violent, its just you level of self control under circumstances.

Things like this are just re-enforcement for why hazing in any form needs to be banned. Im sure mild hazing like the mustard in the hair would all be in good fun. But something can always change...and then mild condiment hair becomes brutal mob beatings.

mymemory
May 8, 2003, 08:13 PM
At list in my country people are very affraid of the US people, every single one person here says "the gringos are crazy, you do not know what they are gonna do".

From my experiences after living more than 3 years in the US I can make a some points about that.

In a country like mine as other lating american country, our problems are the me and people get violent by the same things. You can get kill for your shoes, for your car, for your money or for a woman. 100% of the murders are from that only, so you are aware where the danger is in your enviroment.

In the US the violence is on the movies and on tv, that creates ansiety but the main problem is that the life in the US is so organize (boring) specially out side the big cities that people start looking for that "adrenalin" some where. Now there is not an specific patern or motive to fallow. In that case you can find:
-A 14 year old kid runing in the high way in a stolen car just becase.
-A crazy man trowing a beer bottle out the window of his car going at 60 MPH to a ciclist (I was the guy on the bike).
-A guy who do a bank robery twice just for fun.
-Kids shooting at their teachers.
-Etc.

You may not believe this but those things never happen in my country, and I live in a country with lots of problems. The differentes is that we have real problems to deal with, in the US it depends of the individual. That is why you can find such strange "crimes" going on. That is why the US is violent contry every where, actually is not violent is "unexpected/uncommon violence".

Sorry about my spelling.

kylos
May 8, 2003, 09:08 PM
You should talk to my brother. He's quite amused by how Americans will get uptight about the littlest things because we don't have any 'real' problems.

Rower_CPU
May 8, 2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Kyle?
No, those are violent, violent girls.

So what about the allegation that police officers were present and allowed the hazing to take place?

Wouldn't their acceptance of the violence extend to a condoning of the act by society as a whole?

pseudobrit
May 8, 2003, 09:32 PM
I believe there are studies that showed that girls are bigger bullies than boys. Or at least on the same level. Of course, bullying doesn't have to mean physical violence.

LethalWolfe
May 8, 2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
So what about the allegation that police officers were present and allowed the hazing to take place?

Wouldn't their acceptance of the violence extend to a condoning of the act by society as a whole?

I really hope you are not suggestiong that the actions of a handful of individuals acurately represents the vast majority of Americans (280 million people by last count)...


Lethal

Rower_CPU
May 8, 2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I really hope you are not suggestiong that the actions of a handful of individuals acurately represents the vast majority of Americans (280 million people by last count)...


Lethal

Not at all. But if officials who look out for the safety of the population ignore violence of this sort, what does that say about the society?

LethalWolfe
May 8, 2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Not at all. But if officials who look out for the safety of the population ignore violence of this sort, what does that say about the society?

I don't know. What do actions by a few individuals say about society as a whole?

Because there are murders and rapists in the US does that mean the US is a nation of murders and rapists?

As a society we created laws against violence and brutality agianst others. If individuals choose to ignore those laws that is their prerogative. If you want to make conclusions about US society as a whole you need to study US society as a whole. You cannot accurately make conclusions about a nation of 280 million people by the actions of a handful of people.


Lethal

EDIT: fixed some spelling

Rower_CPU
May 8, 2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I don't know. What do actions by a few individuals say about society as a whole?

Because there are murders and rapists in the US does that mean the US is a nation of murders and rapists?

As a society we created laws against violence and brutality agianst others. If individuals choose to ignore those laws that is their prerogative. If you want to make conclusions about US society as a whole you need to study US society as a whole. You cannot accurately make conclusions about a nation of 280 million people by the actions of a handful of people.


Lethal

EDIT: fixed some spelling

Can we be called a non-violent nation if violence like this takes place?

I understand what you're saying about painting broad strokes about a population based on the actions of a few. It's quite reminiscent of what's happened in this country with Muslims since 9/11.

My contention is that it's abhorrent that the existence of, and potential for violence like this exists in a society as "advanced" as ours.

howard
May 8, 2003, 10:48 PM
i know you shouldn't judge an entire country on individual actions...however it was stated above that laws are made by our country to stop such actions..but when the enforces of this law don't do ANYTHING...what is that saying?

anyway...its pretty awful some of the crimes that are committed these days

patrick0brien
May 8, 2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by mymemory
...life in the US is so organize (boring) specially out side the big cities that people start looking for that "adrenalin" some where...

-mymemory

Ergo tractor pulls, monster trucks and sports out the wazoo.

We don't have to actuallly fend for our food and shelter here - well, not in the respect that you mention - that was done for us by our ancestors.

We are far too hard on ourselves, and you know what? I'm glad - it's a control.

You make very good points. Thank you for your perspective.

Despite your spelling :D

LethalWolfe
May 9, 2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Can we be called a non-violent nation if violence like this takes place?

I understand what you're saying about painting broad strokes about a population based on the actions of a few. It's quite reminiscent of what's happened in this country with Muslims since 9/11.

My contention is that it's abhorrent that the existence of, and potential for violence like this exists in a society as "advanced" as ours.


As disturbing as that video is I think you need to check yer perspective. You are labeling the US as violent based on some HS girls getting hazed, and a few needing hospital treatment. But how many people in the US, and in other countries, are beaten, raped, murder, tortured, or otherwise brutalized every day? And everyone is up in arms over some HS girls getting minor injuries(yes, minor, nothing was life threatening AFAIK)? Is it because we saw video of this event that makes it seems so shocking? Is it because it was mainly teenage girls doing it? Is it a bit of both?

I dunno... I guess it just strikes me as odd that such condemnation and judgemental comments are coming about because a group of teenage girls assulated other teenage girls. If you want to label the US a violent nation at least justify it by citing more serious acts of violence. For example, recently in Indianapolis an owner of a local Indian restaurant was set on fire because he was from the Middle East. Some guys broke into his restaurant after hours and torched him. Last I heard he was doing much better and has a good chance of living. And just last night a kid (16 or 17) killed his girlfriend because she wouldn't tell him if she was preggers or not.
The hazing, while initially shocking to see, was more dissappointing to me than disturbing. And, on the violence scale, it ranks pretty low IMO.

I apologize if my rant isn't very clear, it's late here and I had to work a double shift. ;)


Lethal

pseudobrit
May 9, 2003, 02:07 AM
If you want to label the US a violent nation at least justify it by citing more serious acts of violence.

That's not difficult; the argument is that this case helps underline the idea that the US is a violent nation.

Ambrose Chapel
May 9, 2003, 07:28 AM
We're a violent, violent species.

I believe I found the missing link between animal and civilized man. It is us.
- Konrad Zacharias Lorenz (1903-1989)

Groovsonic
May 9, 2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by mymemory
In the US the violence is on the movies and on tv, that creates ansiety but the main problem is that the life in the US is so organize (boring) specially out side the big cities that people start looking for that "adrenalin" some where. Now there is not an specific patern or motive to fallow. In that case you can find:



Well, I happen to live near where this happened. This is not a small town. It is right near Chicago, in the suburbs, and this was not done out of a lack of things to do. This was stupid and wrong, but in the grand scheme of things, not that big of a deal.

There may be something to your point about people looking of a thrill when they act crazy, but might I suggest it is becuase there aren't as many really serious problems to deal with, so people create their own. But once again, this is certianly not a US exclusive. Neither is hazing. You may call it something different, but it goes on anywhere there are clubs, frats, sports teams, and military groups. I am certianly not excusing what went on, and it should be punished, but don't act like this is an "american" problem.

When I see threads with titles like this, my blood starts to boil. I can't stand when people make blanket statements. "This is a violent country" "Everyone in the south is a racist" "Black people ruin neighborhoods" .
These kind of statements are crazy. We are not a "violent country". We are, for the most part, a peaceful country, but because we have PEOPLE living here, there are stupid and sad things that happen.
People act like after 9/11, everyone took up arms to attack musilms. Did you? Did I? Did anyone I know? No! If you did, you are a moron. A very (relatively) small group of fearful, hateful idiots used 9/11 as an excuse to show their racism by lashing out in hate towards muslims. That was wrong, but that and this 'hazing' that went on are not evidence of a violent country. They are evidences of the flaws in human nature. There are bad people everywhere, and it is certianly not exclusive to the USA.

Violence is a human condition, not an American one.

patrick0brien
May 9, 2003, 09:22 AM
-Folks

One item to put into your thinking that occured to me just now, and it's with a sprinkling of jest that I say this.

The United States has, an anti-Darwinistic bent to its laws. Welfare, the tax code, guilt unitl proven innocent - their all slanted. Digression: I'm not saying I dislike any of them.

However, the combination of all of these biases and slants in our laws indirectly fosters a build up of stupid people - as they're protected as well.

I just wish I had protection from them a little.

I'd like to see an amendment to the bill of rights that reads simply: "You have the right to get yourself killed, without the blame on others."

I think that the pendulum of responsibility has swung to far to the "it's everybody else's fault but my own" direction in this country. Heck, the Europeans are having a field day making fun of our litigious habits right now!

lmalave
May 9, 2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Groovsonic
Violence is a human condition, not an American one.

Then why are some countries/cultures more violent than others? For example, the U.S. and Russia are far more violent than, say, Japan or Scandinavian countries. To say that it is just one incident is to deny reality, I think. We are a violent country. Incidents like this one are just symptomatic of a disease in our culture. It's just a question of being civilized. Yes, violence is part of human nature. So is racism. So is sexism. So is homophobia. But I would like to think that because of our superior brains we can overcome our baser instincts.

lmalave
May 9, 2003, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by patrick0brien
-Folks
The United States has, an anti-Darwinistic bent to its laws. Welfare, the tax code, guilt unitl proven innocent - their all slanted. Digression: I'm not saying I dislike any of them.

However, the combination of all of these biases and slants in our laws indirectly fosters a build up of stupid people - as they're protected as well.

I just wish I had protection from them a little.


First of all, you mean anti social Darwinism, which has little or no relation to Darwin's theories. I suggest you read Darwin or at least Stephen Jay Gould's excellent essays on his theories.

Second of all, I think civilization is overcoming nature. I really don't think we want to go back to a more "natural" state of being. Take a look at nature. Even chimpanzees go on raiding parties where they beat rival chimpanzee clans to a bloody pulp. Going back to a state of nature would mean going back to tribalism and warlordism. Quite frankly I prefer a civilized society based on rational thought.

mymemory
May 9, 2003, 10:03 AM
For example I spent a year in a small town called Cabot in Arkansas with 5000 people. There was not anything to do in that town (that was in 1992), I was an exchange student. During that year a friend of mine (a venezuelan guy) died by a shootgun by he host brother "it was an accident" and 2 kids killed a guy from my highschool for his truck and they wrer capture in Texas, they just ran away because they felt like to.

Now, 4 years later I had the beer botle incident in Orlando FL, man I'm telling you about things that I didn't experience in my home country and the common factor is that those things happen in small town or by people that lived in small towns.

When I was in Orlando I had 2 venezuelan roomates and we were getting crazy for the lack of stress (to give it a name) in that moment people start to create their own conflicts because you can not slow down your brain, there is an ammount of things that your mind need to resolve and if there are not outside experiences it will create its own.

Now, if you are not under control and some people had a bad chilhood or what ever "you can end up killing your roomate because he didn't give you the remote control". Funny that everybody in my school was having the same problem.

So, in my opinion to live in a big city in the US is safer than live in the country, at list I'm a city person but the lack of activity in the country can create some problems. That is why you have people going to church 3 times a week (the Bible Belt area) and they are racist, some of them are part of the KKK, they are well know as the most hipocrite people on earth, they have 3000 types of Bautist Church, etc.

The problem is not the violence because during the Iraq wr we had 600 homicide in my country and "we are in peace". The point is that, you do not know where the violence come from in the US. A few weeks agow a bar tender got killed because some one was smoking in his bar and he told them not to do that.

That is the problem in the US and in some other countries too, you see riots in UK because "the favorite hockey team didn't won".

Humman beens need a minimun of stress in their life. May be with the economic situation in the US most people are gonna focus in one real issues than waisting their time with stupid cults or things like that.

patrick0brien
May 9, 2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by lmalave
First of all, you mean anti social Darwinism, which has little or no relation to Darwin's theories. I suggest you read Darwin or at least Stephen Jay Gould's excellent essays on his theories.

-lmalave

Yes, I do, thank you for making the clarification - and I have read Darwin, heck you're only two months older than I (Happy upcoming 30 BTW) :D

I've got two volumes of "The Darwin Awards", I'm a BIG fan of social Darwinism.

I feel you took my point in an interesting direction, though one I'm not suggesting civilization goes. It's all about perspective, and these discussions wether one agrees with certain viewpoints or not, I find very healthy to the continuance of said civilization.

Groovsonic
May 9, 2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by mymemory

So, in my opinion to live in a big city in the US is safer than live in the country, at list I'm a city person but the lack of activity in the country can create some problems. That is why you have people going to church 3 times a week (the Bible Belt area) and they are racist, some of them are part of the KKK, they are well know as the most hipocrite people on earth, they have 3000 types of Bautist Church, etc.
That is the problem in the US and in some other countries too, you see riots in UK because "the favorite hockey team didn't won".
Humman beens need a minimun of stress in their life. May be with the economic situation in the US most people are gonna focus in one real issues than waisting their time with stupid cults or things like that.

Your experience is diffrent than mine. Here is mine: I live in a suburb of chicago, Elmhurst. It is very safe here. I would say I live in a very low-stress, very low-crime, affluent town. I can leave my car unlocked out by the street with the keys in the car and the window rolled down (and have) and no one touches it. I can leave my house un-locked (and have) for weeks at a time, and not worry. You don't really have incidences of random violence and crazy things happeneing. I live in a low stress enviroment and I certianly don't feel like I want to kill anyone. In fact, I would say I feel very calm and at ease.

You use people going to church 3 times a week as an example? There have been years in my life when I went to church 3 times a week, and there have been times I haven't gone for weeks at a time. What does that have to do with anything?

You cite racisim. Racisim is a worldwide issue. There are (I would bet a million bucks) just as many racists in new york as their are in georgia or alabama. People may be somewhat more vocal about it in certian places, but it exists everywhere, even in scandinavia and japan.

I agree there is too much violence in America. I also say there is too much violence everywhere.

I agree there is the evil of racism in America. I also say there is evil racism everywhere.

But, most people in America are peaceful, tolerant people.

Smile.

Groovsonic
May 9, 2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by lmalave
Then why are some countries/cultures more violent than others? For example, the U.S. and Russia are far more violent than, say, Japan or Scandinavian countries.

Thats a good question.

I want to know what reasons are for the USA being more violent than those countries. I want your opinion.

I am very curious to hear what you or other people think is the reason we are supposedly more violent. Is is systemic? Is it cultural?

LethalWolfe
May 9, 2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
That's not difficult; the argument is that this case helps underline the idea that the US is a violent nation.

I know it's not difficult. That is why I'm surprised by the intense reaction to that hazing. Why did that single event get everyone up in arms when much worse acts of violence are commited every day (both in the US and all over the world)?

Is it because we saw video of it and didn't just read about it in the paper or hear about it on the news? Is it because it was white teenage girls who made the the victims and most of the attackers?

I'm just perplexed about why that hazing is getting so much attention when much more serious and/or lethal acts of violence are commited every day.


Lethal

pseudobrit
May 9, 2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by mymemory
For example I spent a year in a small town called Cabot in Arkansas with 5000 people. There was not anything to do in that town (that was in 1992), I was an exchange student. During that year a friend of mine (a venezuelan guy) died by a shootgun by he host brother "it was an accident" and 2 kids killed a guy from my highschool for his truck and they wrer capture in Texas, they just ran away because they felt like to...

So, in my opinion to live in a big city in the US is safer than live in the country, at list I'm a city person but the lack of activity in the country can create some problems...

A small town is not "the country," though. If you own a piece of land bigger than 5 acres, believe me, there will be plenty to keep your mind and body occupied.

patrick0brien
May 9, 2003, 03:25 PM
-mymemory

Jeff Foxworthy makes his living talking about "Country Folk"

:D