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AppleMatt
May 10, 2003, 08:23 PM
Seems most people on MacRumors are pretty knowledgeable, but I have posted a new discussion in Apple forums so hopefully Apple will see it...

http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?14@125.EN1ya3LnlfB.1289427@.3bc2a3d2

...basically listing a few issues (common and not-so-common) with the 12", for those with one and interested, all posts gratefully received ;)

AppleMatt

celaurie
May 11, 2003, 09:59 AM
Anything else you want to pick at?

Did you find anything good about your Powerbook?

AppleMatt
May 11, 2003, 10:21 AM
Yes I found lots good about my PowerBook, thats why I said it was great and I loved it.

What I am 'picking at' are things, like the speaker pop, which should not be an issue.

If you are happy with buying things and living with their shortfalls, good for you. I however am not.

Notice how I said constructive replies please.

AppleMatt

celaurie
May 11, 2003, 10:28 AM
Point is, no product rolled out will ever be 'perfect'. You seem to find a flaws where frankly there are none... ie. the boot time.

Perhaps you need to lower your expectations slightly.

Oh, and in the MacRumors post you clearly said, "all posts gratefully received."

AppleMatt
May 11, 2003, 10:56 AM
I think we will have to agree that it is all a matter of opinion, IMO the boot time IS an issue, take a look at the speed tests I linked to and if you have (slower) macs available to you, compare. IMO a faster machine should boot faster! Makes sense!

(Also consider Apple removed OS9 capability from the boot rom, and this was released in 2003!)

I know no product will ever be perfect, shame that :p, but once again issues like the speaker pop should not be issues.

AppleMatt

celaurie
May 11, 2003, 10:59 AM
I agree to disagree...

DreaminDirector
May 11, 2003, 11:53 AM
If boot time is a problem, just leave your powerbook in sleep mode. That's what I do and it hardly takes any power when it sleeps.

Sorry to hear that the minor flaws bug you. It is a first generation model, however.

Kwyjibo
May 11, 2003, 12:11 PM
i never got why ppl benchmark boot time on a mac.... i mean i only reboot for apple updates and i think i an wiat an extra minute for that occasional few times every couple of minutes. If your using a mac laptop most ppl put it to sleep as the should so why benchmark a non issue probably simple to make it appaer as tho the apple is slower.

Zeke
May 11, 2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Kwyjibo
If your using a mac laptop most ppl put it to sleep as the should so why benchmark a non issue probably simple to make it appaer as tho the apple is slower.

This is something that interests me...so if you're carrying the computer around in a case can you put it to sleep and not have it heat up? That would be nice if so. I don't have a laptop yet but will be getting a 15" whenever they decide to make one. Thanks.

DreaminDirector
May 11, 2003, 01:22 PM
I have a 15" powerbook and when I put it to sleep it generates zero heat. The sleep mode, IMHO, is the best for it. Super low energy consumption and a near seconds to wake up are the reasons that I never shut it down.

AppleMatt
May 11, 2003, 01:34 PM
Definately. My PowerBook awakes from sleep always in < 2 seconds, usually <1. It's very, very cool :cool:

AppleMatt

bellis1
May 12, 2003, 11:10 AM
Unfortunately Apple seems to have removed your post. I am interested to see the complaints. The boot time is ridiculous to the point where I have to leave the room and come back and keep my fingers crossed that it actually booted. I wonder if this is because I always put it in sleep mode when not in use so it does not have time to normally do maintenance. The warm HD I can deal with. The L2 cache is fine for most uses. I was also a fortunate soul who got one with the trackpad button never seated correctly. But what drives me nuts is I have one rubber foot left on my computer. Imagine typing on something like that.

drastik
May 12, 2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by bellis1
Unfortunately Apple seems to have removed your post. I am interested to see the complaints. The boot time is ridiculous to the point where I have to leave the room and come back and keep my fingers crossed that it actually booted. I wonder if this is because I always put it in sleep mode when not in use so it does not have time to normally do maintenance. The warm HD I can deal with. The L2 cache is fine for most uses. I was also a fortunate soul who got one with the trackpad button never seated correctly. But what drives me nuts is I have one rubber foot left on my computer. Imagine typing on something like that.

keep in mind that if you have had any problems with the system and have forced a restart or done anything strange to it, OS X is going to scan your disc for errors and repair it without asking you. It just does it on boot up. The difference is amazing. My pismo takes less than aminute to start (g3 400) when its in good order. When it has to scan the drive, it takes three to four minutes. Since it only has a six gig drive, I imagine that a 40 giger would take a heck of a lot longer to scan.

I've never owned a laptop (PC or Mac) that didn't lose rubber feet if it had them. You can get replacement packs for a couple of bucks, try powermax or macmall.

Pants
May 12, 2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by DreaminDirector

Sorry to hear that the minor flaws bug you. It is a first generation model, however.

but why do we consumers make excuses for computer manufacturers and not other manufacturers? I mean, if your new 1,000 washing machine refused to wash your clothes or worse still turned them all shade of pink, would you sit there and say 'ahh never mind, its the first generation of washing machine with a blue on/off knob. That'll explain it!".

This excuse doesn't apply to cars, ovens or anything I can think off. If the paint came off my new motor I'd be furious, yet if its a computer we are all cool with it. Maybe its THIS attitude that lets computer /software manufacturers continually promote bug ridden bloatware (yep Bill, I'm thinking of YUO! :) )

ewinemiller
May 12, 2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Kwyjibo
i never got why ppl benchmark boot time on a mac.... i mean i only reboot for apple updates and i think i an wiat an extra minute for that occasional few times every couple of minutes. If your using a mac laptop most ppl put it to sleep as the should so why benchmark a non issue probably simple to make it appaer as tho the apple is slower.

Because my quicksilver dies on a wake from sleep often enough that boot time does concern me.

AppleMatt
May 12, 2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by bellis1
Unfortunately Apple seems to have removed your post. I am interested to see the complaints. The boot time is ridiculous to the point where I have to leave the room and come back and keep my fingers crossed that it actually booted. I wonder if this is because I always put it in sleep mode when not in use so it does not have time to normally do maintenance. The warm HD I can deal with. The L2 cache is fine for most uses. I was also a fortunate soul who got one with the trackpad button never seated correctly. But what drives me nuts is I have one rubber foot left on my computer. Imagine typing on something like that.

The boot time and graphics performance are what bother me mainly, for the most part it's a fantastic machine. I am sure that both can be solved with firmware (black screen) and software (boot and graphics drivers) updates. That is why I find it so annoying.

It is a shame they removed the post, it's self-defeating, they could have gotten a lot from it.

Pants - Good analogy lol, that's the point I was trying to make, I just wasn't getting there fast.

AppleMatt

ewinemiller
May 12, 2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Pants
but why do we consumers make excuses for computer manufacturers and not other manufacturers? I mean, if your new 1,000 washing machine refused to wash your clothes or worse still turned them all shade of pink, would you sit there and say 'ahh never mind, its the first generation of washing machine with a blue on/off knob. That'll explain it!".

This excuse doesn't apply to cars, ovens or anything I can think off. If the paint came off my new motor I'd be furious, yet if its a computer we are all cool with it. Maybe its THIS attitude that lets computer /software manufacturers continually promote bug ridden bloatware (yep Bill, I'm thinking of YUO! :) )

In some ways it does apply to cars, or at least often people will talk about get the second or third model year when a new car is introduced, you know, when they work the kinks out. However I agree with a car it's not as risky, because most come with 3 year bumper to bumper, government regulations that mandate recalls for dangerous problems, and no one argues that it's abuse when a plastic part comes off the dashboard, in my experience, they just replace it.

jxyama
May 12, 2003, 01:00 PM
If PowerBook's display showed red where green should be, then I can see how your comparison makes sense. However, most of the points he's listed are a lot more "minor" than that.

"I have a Whirlpool that fills up for a "large" load in 3 minutes whereas my friend has a Maytag that fills up in 2 minutes 45 seconds. What's up with that?" :D

Gidman
May 12, 2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
I think we will have to agree that it is all a matter of opinion, IMO the boot time IS an issue, take a look at the speed tests I linked to and if you have (slower) macs available to you, compare. IMO a faster machine should boot faster! Makes sense!

(Also consider Apple removed OS9 capability from the boot rom, and this was released in 2003!)

I know no product will ever be perfect, shame that :p, but once again issues like the speaker pop should not be issues.

AppleMatt

Why do you think it takes so long to boot our precious machines? Is this a function of the machine or the OS? Do you think it can be relieved?

Gid

AppleMatt
May 12, 2003, 02:51 PM
I agree many of the points I noted were minor, however I feel some (graphics, boot) are also not minor at all.

Originally posted by Gidman
Why do you think it takes so long to boot our precious machines? Is this a function of the machine or the OS? Do you think it can be relieved?

Gid

I think it's a bit of both. I think the black screen (incidentally, how long is yours black for?) is firmware, and can be solved with some work.

I don't know why OS X takes so long to load after that, theoretically a faster machine should load it faster, but either way I very much doubt that will be improved until 10.3.

AppleMatt

edit: check here for a (short) discussion on boot time: http://discussions.info.apple.com/webx?14@135.jS6ba3a0lhx.0@.3bc1253c

lmalave
May 12, 2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
I think we will have to agree that it is all a matter of opinion, IMO the boot time IS an issue, take a look at the speed tests I linked to and if you have (slower) macs available to you, compare. IMO a faster machine should boot faster! Makes sense!

(Also consider Apple removed OS9 capability from the boot rom, and this was released in 2003!)

I know no product will ever be perfect, shame that :p, but once again issues like the speaker pop should not be issues.

AppleMatt

Only boot it once, then after that always just close the lid which puts your PowerBook to sleep. When you are ready to use the PowerBook again, just open the lid. It's like having an instant-on computer. The only reason you should ever have to reboot your machine is if your install software that requires a restart.

lmalave
May 12, 2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by AppleMatt
Definately. My PowerBook awakes from sleep always in < 2 seconds, usually <1. It's very, very cool :cool:

AppleMatt

Same with my lil' iBook. AirPort kicks in immediately, too :D

AppleMatt
May 12, 2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by lmalave
Only boot it once, then after that always just close the lid which puts your PowerBook to sleep. When you are ready to use the PowerBook again, just open the lid. It's like having an instant-on computer. The only reason you should ever have to reboot your machine is if your install software that requires a restart.

Argh too many people are missing the point.

I DO put it to sleep most of the time. However that does:

1) Not excuse the VERY long bootup time
2) Not factor in when reboot is necessary (demanding games, for example)

Anyway must go revise...must.

AppleMatt

patrick0brien
May 12, 2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Gidman
Why do you think it takes so long to boot our precious machines? Is this a function of the machine or the OS?

-Gidman, AppleMatt

This is the nature of UNIX.

I'm not technical enough to understand what specifically is happening on boot up, but basically, UNIX does all sorts of cleanup, verification, redundant verification, port checking, maintenance like disk surface management, and all sorts of thisngs, and does it to the nth degree. The reason for this is that UNIX is designed for 99% uptime. So it gets all of it's work out of the way on startup so that it can accomplish this.

The way around this, really, is to sleep your machine rather that turn it off. If your machine is crashy with doing this, there's something else going on.

So as a result, my 12"PB takes less than 2 seconds to "Start up".

My uptime of the 12"PB is 11 days, 14 hours and 29 minutes right now (yes, I haven't gone to 10.2.6 yet)

You may not be satisfied with a long startup time, but come Panther, you may never need to restart again...

MacCoaster
May 16, 2003, 07:08 PM
What about people who actually make portable use of the PowerBook? I'd take it to school, my friends' houses, my dad's house, on the plane, etc. I'm not going to leave my laptop on at home for 12 days. That's ridiculous IMO for an-always-moving person.

patrick0brien
May 16, 2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by patrick0brien
...sleep your machine rather that turn it off.

-MacCoaster

My portable earns that title every day. To and from work.

There no need to shut it down.

And please try to pay a little better attention before replying in a manner that might come across as combative.

patrick0brien
May 16, 2003, 07:21 PM
<deleted>

Wyrm
May 16, 2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by celaurie
Point is, no product rolled out will ever be 'perfect'. You seem to find a flaws where frankly there are none... ie. the boot time.

Perhaps you need to lower your expectations slightly.

Oh, and in the MacRumors post you clearly said, "all posts gratefully received."

re: nothing's perfect
Except the Pismo that is.... :D

-Wyrm