2007 Formula One Thread

[R.Youden]

WOW, what a race, that is what Formula One is all about!

In the UK we had Murray Walker on Radio 5 doing the commentary, listening to him and having the ITV coverage with no sound was brilliant.

Come back Murray!

[MarshallM]

Oh, watched it through fully and that was pretty damn awesome. I've never seen a more exciting race! :cool:

[xUKHCx]

WOW, what a race, that is what Formula One is all about!

In the UK we had Murray Walker on Radio 5 doing the commentary, listening to him and having the ITV coverage with no sound was brilliant.

Come back Murray!

Would've loved to have listened to that race with good old murray. That was such an exciting race, shame hamilton didn't get a point but at least he will learn an awful lot. Good to see Webber doing well also.

[iGav]

How the hell did McLaren and Alonso get away with that final pit stop??? :confused: :rolleyes:

And Hamilton definitely used up 8 of his 9 lives this weekend. :p

Schumi back on the podium. :D :D :D

[robbieduncan]

How the hell did McLaren and Alonso get away with that final pit stop??? :confused: :rolleyes:

I would say they haven't yet. Honda are apparently complaining as their mechanics almost got run over! The stewards will no doubt have something to say. If Alsono gets disqualified then Hamilton gets a point right?

[iGav]

I would say they haven't yet.

There's nothing about any stewards investigation.

Other teams/drivers have been penalised for this during prior incidents. Just puzzled why that hasn't applied this time. :confused:

[R.Youden]

That move my the chief mechanic of McLaren was way out of order. Some of those guys get really hot headed though and do some crazy things.

Also what is this crazy rule about letting lapped cars past the safety car and un-lap themselves?

I know Lewis drove a good race after that point but he was lucky he didn't have to cruise round all afternoon a lap behind.

[mad jew]

*Runs through thread waving shirt in the air*


Wooooooo! Go Webber!

I wish Channel Ten would show the races live. I ended up sitting in front of Live Update which was good, but not quite the same.

[bartelby]

*Runs through thread waving shirt in the air*


Wooooooo! Go Webber!


He actually finished a race did he?:eek::p

[mad jew]

Hey, he got a podium! I've always said I reckon he has the biggest balls in F1. :cool:

[R.Youden]

Hey, he got a podium! I've always said I reckon he has the biggest balls in F1. :cool:

The only thing that Webber has that is the biggest in F1 is his mouth. As long as he has someone to moan about and complain and try and shift the blame he is OK.

He had one good race, woo-hoo.

[Lord Blackadder]

The only thing that Webber has that is the biggest in F1 is his mouth. As long as he has someone to moan about and complain and try and shift the blame he is OK.

So he takes over from Paul Stoddart and Jacques Villenueve then? ;):D

Webber has had a lot of breakdowns this year, but his career is in midlife and he has yet to make a lasting impact on the grid.

[iGav]

I vote for Laguna Seca. :)

I've never, ever seen a circuit make Moto GP look quite as boring as it did at Laguna Seca last Sunday. :eek: :eek: :p

Now imagine what it'd do to F1. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Lord Blackadder]

What was boring about it?

We could always go back to Watkins Glen...

[TurboLag]

Everyone criticizes the stewards for pushing Schumi back on the track when his car was half on the tarmac, yet I dont hear anything when Horseshoe Hamilton get cherry picked and put back on the track!

Since when do you lift a car with the driver in it?

[iGav]

What was boring about it?

Well, you know how MotoGP is famed for having exactly one million overtaking maneuvers per lap, I think there was exactly one overtaking maneuver for the whole race at Laguna Seca. ;)

We could always go back to Watkins Glen...

I don't think it'll make a difference to be honest. America (generally) doesn't get F1.

If F1 can't succeed at somewhere like Indy... I think it'll struggle at any other existing venue, unless it is paired with an already popular race series. NASCAR (or Monster Jam :p) for example. And Bernie won't have that. :p

[Lord Blackadder]

Yeah, I think Bernie would have a heart attack if he had to play second fiddle to any other event.

There are a lot of Americans who get F1 - in fact, there are probably more F1 fans in the US than there are in some European countries, but there are many more fans that like NASCAR and other such nonsense.

[R.Youden]

The way I look at Formula One in America is this:

Why is F1 popular in Asia? Because they want to embrace Western Culture as much as possible, as Formula One has a very western perspective, all of the teams are european and most of the manufacturers are European (expect Toyota and Honda).

Now why doesn't America get F1? Because it is too European for them. They don't 'get' the way Europeans work or think. Maybe we are too uptight for the Americans (i.e. too secretive) but I really can't see anything changing until a Formula One team is based in America with American drivers and someone makes a go of it.

[Lord Blackadder]

but I really can't see anything changing until a Formula One team is based in America with American drivers and someone makes a go of it.

Probably...I think that Americans have such a strong national pride...without an American team or an American champion (or both) F1 will remain a niche sport for those of us who remember that stuff actually happens outside the US as well as inside it.

Of the US manufacturers, only Ford really seems to have the interest in international motorsport that would be needed to mount a challenge, but the Jaguar debacle and their current financial situation make that look pretty doubtful.

[R.Youden]

I think you have to look at the most popular 'non-American' sport in America. I am trying to think but for success wise you are looking at golf, but that won't come anywhere near American Football or Basket Ball or Baseball or Ice Hockey.

I think what Bernie has said is true, America doesn't need F1, but F1 doesn't need America so who cares!

[iGav]

Ferrari reveal details of 'key components' in documents at centre of scandal. (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorsport/story/0,,2134842,00.html)

It's probable that these allegations are based on Coughlan's affidavit, if they're only partially accurate, then McLaren are completely... :eek:

So, today's (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2007/July/120707-01.html) the day.

[whooleytoo]

Also what is this crazy rule about letting lapped cars past the safety car and un-lap themselves?


I guess it makes sense - if there's an extended period of laps behind the safety car, it's a good idea to let the unlapped cars go around and onto the back of the pack. It's dangerous enough racing in the rain without having lots of (often rookie) drivers in much slower cars at the front of the pack.

[iGav]

World Motor Sport Council - Decision (http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2007/July/260707-01.html)

No immediate penalty.

But...

The WMSC is satisfied that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of confidential Ferrari information and is therefore in breach of article 151c of the International Sporting Code.

But if it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite Vodafone McLaren Mercedes back in front of the WMSC where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship.

I assume this relates to the ongoing action against Stepney and Coughlan and anything that this may uncover?

Either way the championship has been unequivocally tainted. :(

[iGav]

Ferrari furious with McLaren's reprieve. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61159)

[iGav]

Ferrari ponder appeal in spy row. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6919285.stm)

Todt: Ferrari would have been penalised (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61172)

"That's not all: McLaren during the hearing admitted to have received secret material, and that the knowledge of this operation of espionage arrived at the top level, even to Ron Dennis, and there hasn't been any penalization. It's shameful."

Briatore baffled by FIA verdict (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61166)

This is far from over.

[R.Youden]

Its all rubbish, its really is!

What-ever happens, between them, McLaren and Ferrari have ruined the Championship. Who-ever wins this year will have a cloud over them, waste of time.

The crazy thing is that the majority of people in Formula One know EXACTLY what is going on with the other teams. How did other know about the Renault mass-damper last year?

The best example is when BAR got penalised for the fuel tank irregularity. Their appeared to be an employee who left BAR and moved to Renault. About 2 weeks after he arrived at Renault a complaint was submitted to the FIA who checked the BAR at the first possible opportunity which happened to be the third race of the season.

What if Stepney had left Ferrari and signed for Honda, he would have just told the FIA that Ferrari had a suspect floor and they would have been asked to change things. It was just a problem that he hadn't left Ferrari at that time.

[iGav]

What-ever happens, between them, McLaren and Ferrari have ruined the Championship. Who-ever wins this year will have a cloud over them, waste of time.

I fail to see how Ferrari can be held responsible for ruining this years championship?

How did other know about the Renault mass-damper last year?

Because the mass-damper wasn't a secret. Other teams were running it. ;) :p

The best example is when BAR got penalised for the fuel tank irregularity. Their appeared to be an employee who left BAR and moved to Renault. About 2 weeks after he arrived at Renault a complaint was submitted to the FIA who checked the BAR at the first possible opportunity which happened to be the third race of the season.

The FIA were actually aware of the BAR-Honda's collector from the second race of the season (Malaysia), the only reason they couldn't act before San-Marino (the 4th race of the season) was because neither BAR-Honda had finished in the points prior to this race, and thus were not required to be presented to the stewards for post race scrutineering.

There was no actual irregularity with BAR-Honda's fuel tank design, it was perfectly legal and similar systems were used by other teams.

What if Stepney had left Ferrari and signed for Honda, he would have just told the FIA that Ferrari had a suspect floor and they would have been asked to change things. It was just a problem that he hadn't left Ferrari at that time.


He (Stepney) could have just reported the moving floor to the FIA himself this time, but he chose not to, instead he for several months continued to supply technical information to a senior member of McLaren, of which McLaren were seemingly aware, but chose not to report it to either the FIA or Ferrari until after Ferrari had begun civil proceedings.

Todt accuses McLaren of hypocrisy (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61180)

"A few weeks after the race in Melbourne, the McLaren team principal proposed that we should reach a sort of agreement to establish a better relationship between our two teams, thus avoiding any future denunciations to the sporting authority.

"I replied that I found it impossible to believe him, because on several occasions we had seen that certain commitments had always been disregarded by McLaren. There was an exchange of views and, believing in their good faith, I agreed to sign this agreement on 9 June last.

"Since that time and even earlier, McLaren was perfectly aware, not only of the emails sent by their informer within our company, but also of the fact that their chief designer had stayed in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a significant amount of technical information that belonged to us.

"So, on the one hand, they had come to say 'let us trust one another', and on the other they were hiding serious facts such as those just stated above, but making no effort to inform us as would have been in the spirit and to the letter of our agreement."

Unbelievable. Truly.

[Lord Blackadder]

This makes McLaren look truly rotten...if what Todt says is true, how can we applaud a McLaren championship that would have been unfairly won?

Almost nothing that happens on the track matters much now - this season will be decided in court.

[mad jew]

Its all rubbish, its really is!

What-ever happens, between them, McLaren and Ferrari have ruined the Championship. Who-ever wins this year will have a cloud over them, waste of time.

The crazy thing is that the majority of people in Formula One know EXACTLY what is going on with the other teams. How did other know about the Renault mass-damper last year?

The best example is when BAR got penalised for the fuel tank irregularity. Their appeared to be an employee who left BAR and moved to Renault. About 2 weeks after he arrived at Renault a complaint was submitted to the FIA who checked the BAR at the first possible opportunity which happened to be the third race of the season.

What if Stepney had left Ferrari and signed for Honda, he would have just told the FIA that Ferrari had a suspect floor and they would have been asked to change things. It was just a problem that he hadn't left Ferrari at that time.


It really does make you wonder just how much goes on that we don't hear about.

[iGav]

It really does make you wonder just how much goes on that we don't hear about.

Oh, an awful lot. But spying and the like has been a part of the sport for as long as the sport itself has existed, but there's a fundamental difference between spying... e.g. taking photo's of the teams cars, slyly pulling out a tape measure during Parc fermé conditions etc, and being in possession of substantial IP and operational procedures of another team, for several months without reporting it to the governing body.

Angry Ferrari rule out spy appeal. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6919285.stm)

So... McLaren have got away with it. The Principals Press Conference should be something to behold should Dennis and Todt be scheduled to appear.

[Lord Blackadder]

Of course at this point Ferrari will pull out all the stops, using every channel to attack McLaren any way they can...talk about a bitter rivalry.

I wonder if Stepney and Coughlan are totally finished in F1 - I can't see them joining another team and continuing on after something like this.

[iGav]

Of course at this point Ferrari will pull out all the stops, using every channel to attack McLaren any way they can...

Ferrari had better be careful, lest they get dragged up before the FIA for bringing the good name of F1 into disrepute. :rolleyes: :p

I wonder if Stepney and Coughlan are totally finished in F1 - I can't see them joining another team and continuing on after something like this.

Honda or Toyota are probably drafting up contracts as we speak... ;) Weheh.

[Lord Blackadder]

Honda or Toyota are probably drafting up contracts as we speak... ;) Weheh.

I wouldn't be surprised - if they are good at what they do someone will take them.

[iGav]

This is far from over.

FIA sends spy case to Court of Appeal. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61242)

At least the other party will now have the opportunity to state their case.

Unsurprisingly...

Ferrari welcome Mosley's decision (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61246).

[iGav]

Oh, I forgot to add... what with yesterday's excitement and all... but Scott Speed's out.

Shocker.

[iGav]

McLaren hit out at Ferrari (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61260).

*Light the blue touchpaper, and retreat to a safe distance.

[Lord Blackadder]

This is turning out to be quite the spat...

Shame about Speed, America needs a serious contender in F1 but Speed was a dud, never really challenging for anything other than mediocrity.

[R.Youden]

This spat is getting crazy.

Ferrari are so hypocritical, they where the biggest cheats out there. Some of the stories about what they used to do makes this look like a couple of kids passing answers between themselves in a school test.

On at least one occasion McLaren where the direct victims of this 'cheating' by Ferrari and they agreed not to pursue any legal action as Ferrari said they where not responsible for an individuals actions. Sounds familiar. So now the tables are turned Ferrari are pushing all the way to get a result. This will leave a very nasty taste for a number of years if it isn't sorted out soon.

[R.Youden]

On the lighter side of Formula One:

[R.Youden]

After the last race when we had Murray Walker on 5 Live we now have Damon Hill on ITV (for quali at least). Unfortunately he does not replace James Allen, only Matrin Brundle.

[bartelby]

This spat is getting crazy.


I agree with you. But there are many who think Ferrari can do no wrong...

[whooleytoo]

Cheeky, cheeky move by Alonso?

As nasty as it was - I love it. :D Maybe we'll see a little bite or grudge back in F1 (a la Prost - Senna, Hill - Schumacher, Villeneuve - Schumacher etc.)

[Markleshark]

Why not?

This is the excitement the sport is missing. :D

[xUKHCx]

It'll sure be interesting to see what happens after that. If this was football Alonso would not be playing tomorrow simple as. Luckily for Alonso Rikki didn't get the jump on Hamilton.

[iGav]

It'll be very, very interesting to see if he's not penalised for impeding another driver. He damn well should be though.

He wasn't especially sporting against Kimi either earlier in qualifying.

I'm sorely tempted to go and put a fiver down the bookies that should it be an Alonso/Hamilton 1/2 coming up to the last stop, that McLaren will hold Alonso for the 15 or so seconds he cost Hamilton today.

If he's not brake testing people, or swerving them off the track... he's ruining qualifying for his teammate. Unbelievable.

[iGav]

Stewards investigating Alonso's hold-up. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61353)

[Father Jack]

Stewards investigating Alonso's hold-up. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61353)
I'd be really surprised if they didn't .... :eek:

Mr Denis didn't look too happy with Alonso either .. :(

[iGav]

Mr Denis didn't look too happy with Alonso either .. :(

You mean when he threw his headphones down, and marched that chump down the pit lane like a naughty school boy. :p :p :p

Loved Hamilton's answer in the press conference...

Asked how much more time he would have needed to cross the start/finish line before the end of the session, he replied:

"About the same amount of time that I was held up in the pitstop."

Absolutely perfect answer. :D

I was half expecting him to get out the car and knock Alonso out. I would've.

[Lord Blackadder]

Bad sportsmanship from Alonso - Schu pulled his share of stunts but this was right up there. Shame.

[Father Jack]

This season just gets better and better .... ;)

Can't wait for the race tomorrow. I'll probably be sitting in front of the TV with a large banner saying "C'mon Lewis .. beat the cheating bast*rd" .. :)

[xUKHCx]

This season just gets better and better .... ;)

Can't wait for the race tomorrow. I'll probably be sitting in front of the TV with a large banner saying "C'mon Lewis .. beat the cheating bast*rd" .. :)

I might just make the exact same banner.

There are some reports that alonso waited until a sign from his physio, possibly why ron dennis ripped his headphones off and took him away for questioning.

[Lord Blackadder]

Just wait until the first corner tomorrow...Prost & Senna redux? :eek:

[pengu]

Loved Hamilton's answer in the press conference...

did you notice the look he (hamilton) gave alonso when the interviewer asked alonso about the delay?

[Father Jack]

did you notice the look he (hamilton) gave alonso when the interviewer asked alonso about the delay?
Yes .... sheer magic .. ;)

[iGav]

Dennis: Alonso not to blame for hold-up (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61368).

That doesn't make sense.

Sounds more like RD is desperately trying to avoid having one of his cars sent to the back of the grid.

McLaren. :rolleyes:

[pengu]

Dennis: Alonso not to blame for hold-up (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61368).

That doesn't make sense.

Sounds more like RD is desperately trying to avoid having one of his cars sent to the back of the grid.

McLaren. :rolleyes:

damn tootin.

i suppose the mechanic waving at him and the engineers screaming at him over team radio to get the ***** moving was completely unrelated?

[Lord Blackadder]

Well, this explanation is certainly more convenient for McLaren than having to say that Alonso sabotaged Hamilton's lap deliberately.

It might be true, but there's clearly no love lost between the two McLaren drivers.

[TheChillPill]

Alonso demoted the 6th, McLaren will not score any points for the weekend.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6929333.stm

Should make for an interesting race!

[Lord Blackadder]

Well, things are certainly getting hot!

Alonso should provide us with an entertaining sound bite in a few hours...:D

[xUKHCx]

Alonso demoted the 6th, McLaren will not score any points for the weekend.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6929333.stm

Should make for an interesting race!

Also Fisichella demoted (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61377) to 13th on the grid. For blocking the spyker. Think this will give Mclaren grounds for appealling the penalty of constructers points as there is little difference between the two incidents, as they both ended with one driver not allowing another driver to set a fast lap.

They should've swapped the spyke and Fisichella on the grid.

[pengu]

Also Fisichella demoted (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61377) to 13th on the grid. For blocking the spyker. Think this will give Mclaren grounds for appealling the penalty of constructers points as there is little difference between the two incidents, as they both ended with one driver not allowing another driver to set a fast lap.

They should've swapped the spyke and Fisichella on the grid.

yeah but one was a drivers actions, the other was a driver ******** his team mate's lap, and the team trying to cover it up!

[xUKHCx]

yeah but one was a drivers actions, the other was a driver ******** his team mate's lap, and the team trying to cover it up!

Well they were both driver actions, the only difference from what has been reported was Ron Dennis' statement, which can be attributted to PR to keep the, obvious, tensions in the team down. Mclaren knew that they couldn't cover it up as they had to submit radio recordings so if they tried to do so in the investigation the are outright stupid.

[emdotdee]

Message for Alonso, "The Karma Police will get you in the end"

:):):):)

[Markleshark]

It would now seem is Fernando is ignoring Lewis (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6932653.stm)

Can't beat a bit of childish-ness. :)

[bartelby]

It would now seem is Fernando is ignoring Lewis (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6932653.stm)

Can't beat a bit of childish-ness. :)

Bye Bye Alonso (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorsport/story/0,,2142348,00.html)

[Lord Blackadder]

Alonso is a world-class driver, but also a world-class whiner.:D

Talk about a poor sport though...where will he go? Back to Renault I guess, Ferrari wouldn't want him.

Hamilton is amazing, but he may be a bit of a primadonna as well, carefully nurtured through the ranks of motor sport to be an F1 world champion - put two primadonnas together and you have this.

[iGav]

McLaren 'eh. :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

[Squonk]

I watched the race last night and then went back to watch quali to see it all unfold in real-time. The post quali press conference was precious! Alonso was being a baby if you ask me. I doubt that when Lewis ignored the order to let Alonso pass adversely affected him to the degree that Alonso hurt Lewis. I'm not saying that Lewis is a saint either.

I will not shed a tear if Alonso leave McLaren. It makes that MB commercial available on YouTube even more enjoyable...

Dang - and now we have to wait 3 weeks for another race to see the shenanigans continue. Maybe Alonso will cool down. Wait, he's a Spaniard. Nevermind. :D

[iGav]

McLaren may lose Alonso if he cannot work with Hamilton (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2211563.ece).

In which case, bye bye Fred.

[Lord Blackadder]

How could Alonso expect McLaren to make him the preferred driver? What does he want them to do? give Hamilton a slower car?

They were quoting Hamilton as hitting Ron Dennis with some pretty raw language over the radio.

My personal experience with F1 has been largely limited to the Schumacher era, so this season has been the most exciting I've ever witnessed. Hamilton and Alonso are so closely matched in skill, and they drive the same cars! And now they hate each other!

[iGav]

My personal experience with F1 has been largely limited to the Schumacher era, so this season has been the most exciting I've ever witnessed. Hamilton and Alonso are so closely matched in skill, and they drive the same cars! And now they hate each other!

Welcome to F1 circa 1988/89. ;) :D

[Lord Blackadder]

It may be a nightmare for Ron Dennis, but it makes for a great spectacle and I can't wait for the next race.

[mac2thefuture]

This is turning into a very exciting season, Hamilton is planting a seed in me and i'm starting to like him - and i'm a Button fan. Did you see the live 'spat' between Alonso and Massa - t'was very good.

[giganten]

I did read something about Alonso will go to BMW next season. Don't remember where I did read it but anyone of you have any news about this?

[BoyBach]

It appears that David Coulthard is being a naughty boy! It put a smile on my face.

"How do we know that Ferrari didn’t deliberately not put fuel in Felipe’s car?" he asked.

"Maybe that was a team decision to benefit Kimi. How do you forget to put fuel in the car?

"No one said anything about that. It didn’t allow you (Massa) to get out on the track."

A clearly discomfited Massa, sitting in front of Coulthard, interjected: "Yeah but it wasn’t on purpose – it was a misunderstanding."

Tongue now firmly in cheek, Coulthard retorted: "A pretty fundamental misunderstanding. I think it’s a conspiracy to favour Kimi. Good luck."

ITV Link (http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40393)


:D

[iGav]

I'm puzzled.

How can such a great circuit, with an already legendary corner produce such a dull race?

[iGav]

FIA says has new evidence in spy case (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62066).

So, because of this new evidence, next weeks scheduled Court of Appeal has been cancelled, instead this will now be heard before a reconvened World Motor Sport panel.

This could offer some hints as to what maybe we could expect, if we consider the contents of their last press release;

"If it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite...McLaren back in front of the WMSC where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship.

[Lord Blackadder]

If the title is decided in the courts we will have seen the most exciting season in years turn into a complete farce. :mad:

Hopefully that's not the case.

[iGav]

If the title is decided in the courts we will have seen the most exciting season in years turn into a complete farce. :mad:

Hopefully that's not the case.

This is just a personal opinion, but I think McLaren are ******'d.

[Lord Blackadder]

I am worried you may be right, because to me that means the whole season is likewise ********. :(

[Squonk]

Is there a "better" penalty that could assessed that could help keep the season exciting without totally excluding McLaren? I'm a relatively new fan, so sorry for the question if it's lame...:)

[Lord Blackadder]

Well, if they've lied about not having used any stolen Ferrari data, they're done and dusted and it's their fault.

But it still sucks for us fans...if Ferrari take the championship because McLaren is docked more points or totally disqualified, then the whole season doesn't mean **** as far as I'm concerned. It will be worse than the six-car USGP was.

[R.Youden]

I am starting to think that McLaren really are in the brown and smelly. If they have incorporated Ferrari designs into this years car, and it was widely known within the company, then they don't have a leg to stand on.

What will the penalty be?

For me there are three ways of breaking the rules in F1; bending the rules, cheating, and espionage.

Bending the rules, a-la Ferrari with the flexible floor / wings and even the Honda fuel tank, should get a slap-on-the-wrist but nothing too serious.

Cheating deliberately, well, remove all constructor championship points but allow the drivers to keep points? 2 / 3 race suspension.

Espionage, for me this is very serious. I know how I would have felt if some of the work I carried out for Honda had been used by other teams, pretty damned annoyed! Even if it is only one person who has carried out this 'espionage' then, the team as a whole is responsible for the car it puts on the grid. If they are guilty then they are in for a big penalty. Disqualification for this season for sure, and some very harsh penalty for next season, maybe no constructor points?

[SpookTheHamster]

I'd hate to be Fred or Lewis in this situation, watching their championship hopes go up in smoke because of the selfish actions of a few stupid engineers.

[R.Youden]

I'd hate to be Fred or Lewis in this situation, watching their championship hopes go up in smoke because of the selfish actions of a few stupid engineers.

But that is being part of a team. If you are a football team and one guy gets sent-off then you all pay the consequences. These drivers put their lives in the hands of the engineers on a daily basis so they must have some trust in them.

[R.Youden]

McLaren are really making a mess of things this season. It now appears that they ran a new light-weight gear-box in Hungary that they had not crash tested. That is yet another massive mistake by the team and although they won't be severely punished for it, it shows how much turmoil the team must be in.

[iGav]

Ferrari say truth will out in spy hearing (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62085).

But will we get to find out what it is as well?

Though there's been some more mutterings, suggesting that maybe/allegedly the source of the new evidence is Fred :eek: and not either Stepney or Coughlan. :eek:

with world champion Fernando Alonso not commenting on Thursday at suggestions that he has been involved in providing new evidence.

Autosport.com understands that the FIA became aware of new evidence last week and wrote to all F1 teams, as well as Alonso, de la Rosa and Hamilton, on Friday to make it clear that it was their duty to provide the FIA with any information regarding that matter.

It is also believed that the letter to the drivers promised them an 'amnesty' from any punishment if they fully cooperated with the ongoing investigation.

How much involvement Alonso had in the matter is unclear, and the FIA has refused to confirm or deny the nature of the new evidence, or the letters.

Incredible if true. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[R.Youden]

Ferrari say truth will out in spy hearing (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62085).

But will we get to find out what it is as well?

Though there's been some more mutterings, suggesting that maybe/allegedly the source of the new evidence is Fred :eek: and not either Stepney or Coughlan. :eek:









Incredible if true. :eek: :eek: :eek:

So when Fred said he bought 6-tenths per lap we now know what he meant!

[iGav]

So when Fred said he bought 6-tenths per lap we now know what he meant!

Indeed. :p :p :p

Mad Max has confirmed the new evidence has come from the McLaren drivers;

Letter confirms drivers had new evidence (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62097).

"an allegation that one or more McLaren drivers may be in possession, or that such drivers have recently been in possession, of written evidence relevant to this investigation."

The ramifications of this though... :eek: :eek: :eek:

[R.Youden]

If this is true and Alonso and De La Rosa knew about the information from Ferrari at the start of the season then they should be in BIG trouble. In my mind this is far worse than anything Schui ever did. I know what he did in Australia and Jerez was wrong, but at least he didn't deceive and cheat his way through a whole season.

Sorry Alonso but will get one big punishment and will not be welcome back by many Formula One fans.

It is a very sad state of affairs.

[Lord Blackadder]

I suppose this is Fred's way of repaying McLaren for treating him badly (as he sees it) with regards to the Lewis Hamilton row. Of course he is ********* now as well...I can't see him getting out unscathed if he knew something all season, as R. Youden says.

[R.Youden]

I suppose this is Fred's way of repaying McLaren for treating him badly (as he sees it) with regards to the Lewis Hamilton row. Of course he is ********* now as well...I can't see him getting out unscathed if he knew something all season, as R. Youden says.

I don't think this has anything to do with the Lewis Hamilton row. This email conversation with De La Rosa was supposed to have taken place just after the first race of the season when the relationship (on the outside) was still a good one. I think is more a case of Alonso showing his true colours, he is a pr*ck!

[Lord Blackadder]

If that's the case, It's a real shame...F1 needs drivers of his caliber to be exciting, but he's not done himself any favors in his off-track behavior this season.

But what happens next??

[Squonk]

Do you think that the reason that Renault has not announced their 2008 drivers is that if McLaren are disqualified from the season that Fred might jump back to Ren? Assuming, of course, that this latest stuff will not point directly at Fred himself.

[R.Youden]

I think Renault are desperate to find two good drivers, never mind Alonso. If Alonso is implicated in this saga then no-one will touch him with a barge pole. Sorry Alonso, you had your chance and you appear to have blown it.

[iGav]

Fuji and Suzuka to share Japanese GP (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62143).

Excellent news. :)

Though I think I'm always going to regret not making the trip to see Schumacher at Suzuka in 2000. :(

[iGav]

I think Renault are desperate to find two good drivers, never mind Alonso. If Alonso is implicated in this saga then no-one will touch him with a barge pole. Sorry Alonso, you had your chance and you appear to have blown it.

I think Renault (particularly Flav) might just be involved in this latest twist. ;)

[iGav]

So, today's (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62300) the day then.

[iGav]

MP4-22 could have gained half a second thanks to Ferrari data says Brawn (http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&month=9&year=2007&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=27752).

Seems like information from the court is beginning to leak out (I understand that journalists are being allowed to attend this time).

The highlights so far would appear to be that;

• There are approximately thirty e-mail exchanges between Alonso, de la Rosa and Paddy Lowe (director of engineering at McLaren)

• They all contain confidential classified information from Ferrari.

• It is said that Lowe would have explored the new technical solutions that came from the information that was obtained by Mike Coughlan via Nigel Stepney.

• Even though de la Rosa and Alonso were well-informed, it appears that they did not take an active part in cementing the new explorations.

• Using the stolen data from Ferrari could gain approximately half a second a lap, a figure estimated by Ross Brawn.

I'm not sure what time a decision can be expected, though I think that last time, a decision was reached shortly after lunch.

Though obviously this time, it would appear that Ferrari are playing a more active roll in proceedings, so I suspect this could well last for the duration of the day.

[iGav]

Newsflash: McLaren excluded from 2007-08 (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62312).

Wow. Just. Wow. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[R.Youden]

From pitpass:

First unconfirmed reports from Paris suggest that the hearing in Paris has not gone well for McLaren.

Unconfirmed reports suggest that the Woking teams has been banned for 2007 and 2008. However, it is not clear whether this applies in terms of Constructors' Points or whether the entire team is banned.

Once again, this is currently unconfirmed.

I wonder if this means the team as a whole has been banned, or that they just won't get any constructor points. We will see...

[R.Youden]

Autosport have pulled the story now. Something not quite right. Chinese whispers maybe?

[iGav]

Autosport have pulled the story now. Something not quite right. Chinese whispers maybe?

Could be...

I've just seen on BBC News that they're still deliberating, but that the rumour in the paddock at Spa is that McLaren are in trouble.

I suspect that's where Autosport probably got their source from.

[R.Youden]

Autosport says that the WMSC have yet to decide on the future of McLaren.

And now McLaren have named the spy inside Renault. I think McLaren know they are going down and are just trying to take everyone with them!

Oh dear oh dear Ron, what have you done...

[R.Youden]

From Autosport:

The World Motor Sport Council has yet to agree on a final verdict, despite our earlier newsflash suggesting otherwise.

Sources have told autosport.com one of the options currently reviewed is to exclude McLaren from both the 2007 and 2008 championship - in line with the World Motor Sport Council's decision in July.

However the FIA said no decision has yet been made, although a verdict is expected imminently.

Hmmm

[Squonk]

Now a spy within Renault? I cannot wait until the press conferences after they are done meeting. And now I cannot get autosport.com to load over here in the US. :mad: F5, repeat...

[R.Youden]

Autosport is taking some heavy pounding.

Everyone in motorsport uses Autosport. It is not only us fans, but also team members find out a lot more info from Autosort than they get told by the management.

[TheChillPill]

I will be absolutely astounded if McLaren are indeed banned - and I imagine Bernie would be furious.

It will certainly create one heck of a shuffle though - unless of course McLaren simply 'become' Prodrive.

[R.Youden]

Apparently the McLaren team are packing up the motor-home in Spa!

[Markleshark]

Apparently the McLaren team are packing up the motor-home in Spa!

Wow. If they have done something wrong, then I hope they do get heavily punished. If not, then we need to get on with the championship.

I'm not one for a quick slap of the wrist, it needs to be done properly.

And yeah, I can't get Autosport to load either.

[TheChillPill]

Apparently the McLaren team are packing up the motor-home in Spa!

Surely they'll race under appeal, assuming they are found guilty?

[Squonk]

Apparently the McLaren team are packing up the motor-home in Spa!

You had me there for a minute...

That does bring up a question that I've had for a while. IF McLaren were to be banned, would they still participate in the races? I know that might be a dumb question, but what would happen to their sponsorship contracts and such? I cannot see the team really putting forth top notch effort if there did race.

I guess the question is, what does it mean to be banned?

[R.Youden]

This is the big question.

I would expect that if they where banned they would be allowed to race under appeal. I am not sure of any precedence in this scenario. I can't remember how long before the Spanish GP Honda where banned.

It is difficult to say, but I expect if they are banned then it would mean a total ban. The sponsors would have to pay a certain amount, most contracts will have a clause which covers this scenario.

This may also have big ramifications for the Prodrive situation. I think the idea was that they ran this years McLaren, which now won't happen. Then if they take up the 2008 McLaren then you have to ask how can they be sure that the car contains no carry-over parts from 2007, hence the ban for 2008 aswell.

This could all get very complex...

[TheChillPill]

McLaren stripped of constructors points and handed a $100m fine!

[iGav]

McLaren stripped of constructors points and handed a $100m fine!

Just reading...

But drivers to retain points. :mad:

[TheChillPill]

Thankfully!

I'll be willing to bet Alonso won't be in a McLaren car next year now though - his 'get out' clause comes into effect now.

[R.Youden]

Just reading...

But drivers to retain points. :mad:

Where is that info from?

[R.Youden]

Thankfully!

I'll be willing to bet Alonso won't be in a McLaren car next year now though - his 'get out' clause comes into effect now.

If he has a contract then any clause would be WDC points based.

[Lord Blackadder]

Holy ****. Looks like an automatic Ferrari constructors championship then.

:mad:

This just sucks for F1 as a whole - why should I bother to watch any more races this season? It looks like Alonso and Hamilton still have a good chance at the title, which isn't exactly fair considering their car is illegal.

I wonder if this will be enough to kill McLaren as a competitive force for the foreseeable future?

[iGav]

Thankfully!

No. Not really.

One could conclude that if McLaren have unfairly benefitted (enough to warrant being stripped of all their points) because of the use of confidential data from another team, then their drivers too unfairly benefitted.

[iGav]

I wonder if this will be enough to kill McLaren as a competitive force for the foreseeable future?

Doubt it. They're still completely aware of confidential Ferrari data and procedures, and whilst they have to present their 2008 car for scrutineering before the start of the next season, I far as I understand it the use of Ferrari IP on the McLaren car was never serious suggested, it was in essence operational procedures etc only.

Ron Dennis is to hold a press conference at 19:15 BST (GMT+1).

[R.Youden]

This is crazy! How can they give McLaren what amounts to a slap-on the wrist. Understanding how a car and team operates is a huge issue in terms of performance. Last year, and to a certain extent the year before, Renault didn't have the fastest car but they understood how it worked and used that to their advantage.

If Honda (BAR) got a two race ban for 'interpreting' the rules in the wrong way then this is totally an unjust punishment.

As for long term effect I think it will have some ramifications for McLaren.

Only the top 10 get travel expenses for the following season so now they wont get any money to cover those expenses so they will have to cut back a certain amount on the development of next years car, so it could limit them a bit.

[Project]

This is crazy! How can they give McLaren what amounts to a slap-on the wrist.

You are kidding, right?

[R.Youden]

You are kidding, right?

No, I am not! They have saved face massively. They won't be affected too badly in terms of on track performance.

Even if you banned them for one race and no other punishment it would have had far greater ramifications for the team. They are VERY lucky.

[iGav]

You are kidding, right?

It's nothing other than a slap on the wrist compared to what they should've got.

[R.Youden]

It's nothing other than a slap on the wrist compared to what they should've got.

Thank you!

[Project]

Even if you banned them for one race and no other punishment it would have had far greater ramifications for the team. .

More so than a $100m fine?

You cannot be serious. Even if Ferrari finished 1/2 in a race where McLaren were banned, Hamilton and Alonso would still be holding the top two positions in the Drivers championship.

The $100m represents 25% of their entire annual budget. Its a devastating blow.

[DAC47]

It's nothing other than a slap on the wrist compared to what they should've got.

$100 million that's got to be the biggest fine in the history of sport
who's in charge of the FIA ?
Doctor Evil.
.
.
.
.
.

[bartelby]

$100 million that's got to be the biggest fine in the history of sport


I could well be.

[R.Youden]

More so than a $100m fine?

You cannot be serious. Even if Ferrari finished 1/2 in a race where McLaren were banned, Hamilton and Alonso would still be holding the top two positions in the Drivers championship.

The $100m represents 25% of their entire annual budget. Its a devastating blow.

I am sure Mercedes will bank roll most of that.

Also I imagine it will be a 50 million over 12 months, with another 50 if you violate the rules further. Also you can't see them shutting the doors until Ron has got his cheque book out and signed a cheque for $100 million!

Although money is important in Formula One, there is a saying, you are only as good as your last race. Hmmm let me see a 1-2 in Monza, they are fine! It won't have deterred too many of the sponsors so financially they may struggle with development of next years car, but on the whole they should be OK. And even if they are struggling for ideas they could just give Nigel Stepney a ring......

[Project]

$100 million that's got to be the biggest fine in the history of sport
.
.
.
.
.


Plus all constructors points for this year AND next year have been taken away.

To say this was a slap on the wrist is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard.

[Lord Blackadder]

So the result is that McLaren drivers will probably be in 2 of the top three spots in the drivers' championship, but Ferrari will win the constructors championship. But...

It does seem like a light punishment considering that McLaren now know a lot about how Ferrari works - something that could benefit them for several years to come unless Ferrari radically alter their procedures.

At any rate the season is spoiled, and maybe next season too.

[Markleshark]

To say this was a slap on the wrist is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard.

How is it not a slap on the wrist?

Be all and end all is they have benefited (Not just the team, the drivers as well) from information they should not have had. If a footballer benefits from drugs they should not have had, they are banned. Simple. As. That.

[iGav]

Plus all constructors points for this year AND next year have been taken away.

As I understand it, McLaren won't be stripped of constructors points next year.

To say this was a slap on the wrist is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard.

It's a slap on the wrist when you consider that they should've been kicked out of not only this season, but also the next one too.

[iGav]

Now it turns out that the part of the fine will be offset by what they would've earned had the won the World Championship. So it's not even technically $100 million out of their pockets.

Unbelievable. :rolleyes:

[Lord Blackadder]

Seems like they've really gotten away with murder...

[Squonk]

What will happen to the constructors trophies that McLaren have won so far this season? I think that is the real question here.... :p

Although this is a substantial monetary judgment, it does not kill Lewis's rookie season off. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm happy for him, of course. But did he benefit from this espionage to have such a stellar season? Absolutely. So why let him keep all the points and be allowed to continue to earn more? Hmmm.

[Lord Blackadder]

It seems to me that Hamilton shouldn't be penalized for driving an illegal car, but he shouldn't be allowed to win over teams who didn't cheat.

If Fred knowingly posessed and used Ferrari data, he should be excluded.

[R.Youden]

I think he knew that the team had the data rather than used the data himself, which is just as bad in my opinion.

[Counterfit]

Duh, didn't see the other two pages of posts. :p

If Alonso knew about this, he definitely should be stripped of his points.

Hmm: However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points **.

That's pretty bunk. They directly benefitted from this, and should not have been immune from losing their points (banning the drivers probably would have been excessive.)

[Lord Blackadder]

I don't see why Alonso or De la Rosa would not be penalized, or indeed why any McLaren employee directly involved should escape individual punishment. The drivers have the most to gain though, so they should be called to account for essentially manipulating the results.

So now what? Where do we go from here?

[Counterfit]

I don't see why Alonso or De la Rosa would not be penalized, or indeed why any McLaren employee directly involved should escape individual punishment. The drivers have the most to gain though, so they should be called to account for essentially manipulating the results.

So now what? Where do we go from here?

What sort of punishment could PDR be subject to anyway? The only thing I could see is a fine, because he doesn't have any points to take away...

Also, does this judgement mean that if a McLaren finishes first, the first non-McLaren gets the constructor's points? Or are they just not awarded?

[Lord Blackadder]

My guess is that the McLarens are simply ignored when it comes to scoring Constructors points, i.e. if A McLaren finished 1st and 3rd and a Ferrari 2nd and 4th, the Ferraris would be awarded Constructors points for finishing 1st and 2nd, respectively.

I'm not sure how to punish Pedro de la Rosa, but really it's more a question of punishing Fred, since he is in the running for the drivers' championship.

And no offense to Hamilton, but his victories are hardly fairly won, so his wins come with an asterisk too.

[Counterfit]

My guess is that the McLarens are simply ignored when it comes to scoring Constructors points, i.e. if A McLaren finished 1st and 3rd and a Ferrari 2nd and 4th, the Ferraris would be awarded Constructors points for finishing 1st and 2nd, respectively.
That's what I figured

I'm not sure how to punish Pedro de la Rosa, but really it's more a question of punishing Fred, since he is in the running for the drivers' championship.

And no offense to Hamilton, but his victories are hardly fairly won, so his wins come with an asterisk too.

This will certainly be the most controversial driver's championship since at least '94, and at least that was (mostly) on the track.


Anyways, Villeneuve's first test in the C.O.T. (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62284).
His crew chief Richard 'Slugger' Labbe was again impressed by Villeneuve, and was happy to point out that the NASCAR rookie came out of Talladega without making any enemies on the track, instead making many friends in the Nextel Cup garage.
I bet that won't last long. :p

[R.Youden]

I think that the points will stand as they are and will not be recalculated. As in 1997 when Schui was disqualified at the end of the season.

Now what happens from now on I am not sure, I am sure we will found out soon...

[Counterfit]

I think that the points will stand as they are and will not be recalculated. As in 1997 when Schui was disqualified at the end of the season.

Now what happens from now on I am not sure, I am sure we will found out soon...

Yes, it did say in the statement that no other teams current totals would be changed, but I was wondering about this weekend and beyond.

[mad jew]

Wow. I think it's reasonably fair. The sport is about entertainment. Eliminating a top team from the races would harm the sport more than letting the team get away with it, in my opinion. This seems like a good enough middle ground in what would undoubtedly have been an extremely difficult decision.

On the other hand, does anyone even care about the constructor's championship? It's all about the drivers, in my opinion.

[smueboy]

The teams certainly care about the constructors championship and what it means for them in terms of earnings and the next season. All in all i think that this amounts to quite a strong punishment that may result in some major changes next year.

[AndyR]

F1 just gets worse and worse.

McLaren still insist the document was at Coughlins house and they never used it. Team employee's move roles all the time and take information with them. I worked for Renault F1 18 months ago in the IT department and was responsible at the test/races for IT setup etc. I have since left but if I went to another team what am I supposed to do, get amnesia????

The whole thing is a farce. Ferrari are just pi$$ed because they pee'd an employee off so much he left with there information.

How come Ferrari never got penalised for the barge boards / flexi wing / taking penalties after the race / blocking the track / team orders.

Because the F in F1 stands for Ferrari!

I'm so glad I no longer work in F1. It sucks now.

[BoyBach]

Eddie Jordan was talking on the radio this morning and he said that the rumour was that Ecclestone told Ron Dennis that if he (Dennis) stood down then all the problems would go away/be dropped by the FIA.

It looks like it really is a mini-class-war between Mosley and Dennis.

[emotion]

Wow. I think it's reasonably fair. The sport is about entertainment. Eliminating a top team from the races would harm the sport more than letting the team get away with it, in my opinion. This seems like a good enough middle ground in what would undoubtedly have been an extremely difficult decision.

On the other hand, does anyone even care about the constructor's championship? It's all about the drivers, in my opinion.

Well, it has a lot to do with where the team is in the pits/pecking order for next year. I think excluding them is possibly ok without putting McLaren at the end of the pit lane.

I think the FIA are in danger of damaging the sport with such a strong punishment and are likely going to put people off paying attention to the sport at this rate.

I mean the races are exactly scintilatingly exciting are they?

I speak as a life long F1 fan too.

[R.Youden]

It will mean that they will get the little pokey garages at the end of the pit-lane next year. And also it may mean that they wont be able to pitch their super motor-home. Ha, that is funny!

Also as a team any bonus that the staff gets would be constructors based. It will be interesting to see (not that we will know) if McLaren stick to their internal bonus scheme.

[sweetie81]

Well, it has a lot to do with where the team is in the pits/pecking order for next year. I think excluding them is possibly ok without putting McLaren at the end of the pit lane.

I think the FIA are in danger of damaging the sport with such a strong punishment and are likely going to put people off paying attention to the sport at this rate.

I mean the races are exactly scintilatingly exciting are they?

I speak as a life long F1 fan too.

Yeah agree with ya. What FIA did was a hard decision. Depriviation of all constructors points is hard cos in my opinion I can't see any details or evidence that the latest McLaren has parts on it which the Ferraris have. There's never been any evidence of that.

Plus $100m penalty is far too much. Only because of two employees acting wrongly McLaren have to pay for it. That's wrong. I only know Norbert Haugs statement cos he only speaks on German TV but all over the years I've seen McLaren as a highly professional, honest team. I can't see any reason why they'd have changed their 'strategy'.

The season is truly entertaining and with Lewis Hamilton leading the championship there's a huge interest and a lot of potential. After Schumacher everyone saw the F1 in a crysis due to a massive drop of people showing an interest in F1 (well at least in Germany). With Lewis Hamilton this has changed. His quick and a popular figure.

Like emotion I've been a F1 fan since 1993. I think instead of McLaren those two people have to pay for what they've done.

[R.Youden]

The things is this...

The documentation that mclaren received probably did not contain any technical documentation, it probably contained setup data, race strategy and operational details. Technical data would be useless to a greater extent.

if you are McLaren and you get technical data on a Ferrari front wing and you work out that their front wing is 10% more efficient then you copy it and run it on your car will get get a 10% more efficient car? No. Each part of the car links together, i.e. the front wing sets the airflow over the suspension, monocoque and side pods, so that air can then be set to flow over the rear wing etc...

Now what would be invaluable to a team would be to find out how Ferrari work out strategy or how they set-up the car. As I have said many times, the Renault in 2006 was not the fastest car but they knew how to make it quick. If any team got this information from a rival then it could have been hugely important in understanding how to beat Renault.

This is why what McLaren did is so wrong.

[displaced]

Depriviation of all constructors points is hard cos in my opinion I can't see any details or evidence that the latest McLaren has parts on it which the Ferraris have. There's never been any evidence of that.

I wonder how much the FIA actually investigated this aspect?

I would have hoped there had been an independent expert who was given access to the document in question and the full specs of both the Ferrari and the McLaren cars at the time of the document's leak. This expert would then present any evidence showing that McLaren benefited from the document and also allow McLaren to defend against the expert's statement.

The leak itself is the responsibility of the two engineers involved. However, I'd hope that McLaren was penalised only if it was proved that the organisation itself was involved in acquiring the document or that the team directly benefited by copying from the document.

At the moment, I've not heard any hard evidence that McLaren as a team was involved in the acquisition of the document nor that the car itself includes features gained as a direct result of obtaining the document.

[R.Youden]

Typical

Autosport Link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62339)

[R.Youden]

Another

Autosport Link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62346)

This makes it sound even worse and shows, ti my mind, how lucky McLaren where.

[sweetie81]

The things is this...

Now what would be invaluable to a team would be to find out how Ferrari work out strategy or how they set-up the car. As I have said many times, the Renault in 2006 was not the fastest car but they knew how to make it quick. If any team got this information from a rival then it could have been hugely important in understanding how to beat Renault.

This is why what McLaren did is so wrong.

I don't think they'd have done it. If MCL were cheating. Why not earlier? There're always possibilities to get some useful information about other cars/teams.

I wonder how much the FIA actually investigated this aspect?

I would have hoped there had been an independent expert who was given access to the document in question and the full specs of both the Ferrari and the McLaren cars at the time of the document's leak.

Yeah FIA don't seem to be highly independent. Motorsport needs a new gremium.

Stone me for this statement if you want. That's my opinion.

[iGav]

I think he knew that the team had the data rather than used the data himself, which is just as bad in my opinion.

Indeed, though it's been widely reported that Lewis frequently made use of Alonso's set up data, thus gaining him a similar advantage. Whether he knew about this or not is open to debate of course.

I have since left but if I went to another team what am I supposed to do, get amnesia????

Well that would depend on whether you stole 700+ pages of confidential data from your team and took that with you, or provided it to a senior member of a rival team, whilst you were still in employment with your current team.

That is the fundamental difference from what you are describing above.

The whole thing is a farce. Ferrari are just pi$$ed because they pee'd an employee off so much he left with there information.

He didn't leave with the information.

He stole it, provided it to a senior member of a rival team, and continued to provide a substantial amount of technical and operational information over a not insignificant period of time to them whilst still employed by Ferrari.

How come Ferrari never got penalised for the barge boards / flexi wing / taking penalties after the race / blocking the track / team orders.

In answer too..

• The barge boards were in fact legal.
• Ferrari (along with several other teams) changed their wings once the FIA made a rule clarification.
• The penalty after the race wasn't Ferrari's problem, it was a mistake in procedure by the stewards.
• Why should Ferrari be penalised for what Schumacher did? Schumacher though was.
• Team orders were perfectly legal up until Austria 2002, so Ferrari could not be penalised for imposing them.

The suggestion that Ferrari are never penalised however, is nothing other than a myth.

What sort of punishment could PDR be subject to anyway?

Well, he could've been stripped of his Super License, he also could've been banned from all FIA sanctioned motor sport competition.

Personally, that wouldn't have gone far enough. I'd have shot him too. ;)

This makes it sound even worse and shows, ti my mind, how lucky McLaren where.

It's even more damning then I was expecting. The level of technical data it contains is just... incredible.

Yet McLaren are allowed to continue there participation in this season, whilst they are still aware of not only this technical data, but also operational procedures. Unbelievable.

I simply cannot believe that McLaren have not been excluded from not only this season. But the next 5 as well.

&

I simply cannot believe that Alonso has not been excluded from not only this season. But the next 5 as well.


If all of what has happened isn't enough, some seem to think that it was Ron Dennis himself that tipped off the FIA to the emails.

The ultimate irony (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19649.html).

It's now official. :eek:

Dennis tipped off FIA about evidence (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62376).

So, what are the odds now on Fred sitting out next season?

[Lord Blackadder]

Maybe that explains the leniency of the punishment....Dennis was the one who finally broke the case wide open.

Fred...as a driver he's very good, but he makes a pretty wretched human being. Not interested in him anymore. He should be driving a Spyker or Super Aguri for the rest of the season and then sit out '08.

[gauchogolfer]

Has everyone already seen this bit of news from ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?seriesId=6&id=3019160)?

FIA said de la Rosa sought and obtained "secret Ferrari information from a source which he knew to be illegitimate," before sharing it with Alonso.

"There was a clear intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to use some of the Ferrari confidential information in its own testing," it said.

On the eve of testing the McLaren car in a simulator, De la Rosa wrote an e-mail to Coughlan on March 21 to provide information about the red Ferrari setup.

"Hi Mike, do you know the Red Car's Weight Distribution? It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in advance, Pedro," FIA quoted De la Rosa's message.

In another e-mail quoted by FIA, de la Rosa wrote to Alonso about a specific gas Ferrari was using to inflate its tires.

"We'll have to try it, it's easy," wrote de la Rosa.

FIA said Alonso replied: "Let's hope we can test it during this test, and that we can make it a priority!"

I'm not a big F1 follower, but this kind of espionage is pretty damning.

[iGav]

Maybe that explains the leniency of the punishment....Dennis was the one who finally broke the case wide open.

What's really intriguing is the reasons Ron felt compelled to share it with the FIA.

Certainly the talk of Fred using the emails as some kind of leverage/blackmail to either negotiate #1 status or else is just :eek: :eek: :eek:

Has everyone already seen this bit of news from ESPN.com?

That's nothing... read the rest (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62348) of it. :eek:

[R.Youden]

Yeah, most of that was in the FIA statement.

Not at all good, sorry guys.

I don't care how much it would have 'damaged' Formula One, cheats, and blatant cheats, must be dealt with severely.

They are VERY lucky.

[R.Youden]

Maybe Ron could give Alonso a motor-bike so he could "fall off whilst playing tennis". That would solve the problems.

[sweetie81]

Maybe Ron could give Alonso a motor-bike so he could "fall off whilst playing tennis". That would solve the problems.

I see you love Alonso as much as me or didn't I get the hint? :D

[Don't panic]

I see you love Alonso as much as me or didn't I get the hint? :D
i think he's referring to montoya's 'tennis' injury, which according to others occurred as he was riding a dirt bike, which is a big no-no because of the high injury risks.

[sweetie81]

i think he's referring to montoya's 'tennis' injury, which according to others occurred as he was riding a dirt bike, which is a big no-no because of the high injury risks.

Alright thought it could be a reason to fire that Spaniard. He's fast but instead of concentrating on his job he started to moan and becoming an ar............ His statement in Monza that the victory was nothing special showed how pissed he is. No manners or does he want to go back to Renault asap?

[R.Youden]

A started in another thread, I fear Colin McRae has been killed in a helicopter crash.

See thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=355499)

[Lord Blackadder]

Finally, something happened on track in F1 for a change...:rolleyes:

I don't think Raikkonen can catch up to the two McLaren drivers, but I really hope Fred doesn't take the title.

[iGav]

The FIA have published full transcripts for both WMSC meetings regarding the Spygate case between McLaren and Ferrari.

Grandprix.com (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19665.html) have provided a full transcript, that does not require the downloading of any PDF's.

The original transcripts however can be obtained directly from the FIA Website (http://www.fia.com/index_1024.html) in PDF format.

I'm currently reading and digesting, and look forward to perhaps discussing the contents later on.

[sweetie81]

Thanks iGav will read it in a bit. Seems to be interesting.

[iGav]

Thanks iGav will read it in a bit. Seems to be interesting.

Well, it's certainly more interesting than last weeks Belgian GP.

[AlBDamned]

The FIA have published full transcripts for both WMSC meetings regarding the Spygate case between McLaren and Ferrari.

Grandprix.com (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19665.html) have provided a full transcript, that does not require the downloading of any PDF's.

The original transcripts however can be obtained directly from the FIA Website (http://www.fia.com/index_1024.html) in PDF format.

I'm currently reading and digesting, and look forward to perhaps discussing the contents later on.

Only 20-odd pages into the September hearing, but it's pretty damning stuff. Pretty electrifying in some respects, too - and amusing where Tozzi bitchslaps Mosley about it being 45 minutes in and him "having his watch here and being well aware of that."

Not too smart on the part of Mill, who cocks up his opening part with wrong information.

[iGav]

McLaren have decided not to appeal the verdict.

Rinky dink link (http://www.mclaren.com/latestnews/mclaren.php).

[R.Youden]

Ok everything is very quiet in the F1 world at the moment. I stumbled across and article by our friend Max Mosely in the papers today and he has said that because the UK government has bankrolled the Olympics in 2012 they should back the British GP as that is every year and the Olympics is once every 50 years.

What do people think about this? I think that Silverstone is one of the only non-government backed circuits in the world (at least they get no money from them whilst all the other circuits get some). After being inside the garages at Silverstone and comparing them to bahrain of Malaysia they are a million miles apart (I have a good story about the Paul Ricard pits but that can wait for another day!). 8 of next years 12 teams will be UK based and all the subsidiary companies that work out of the UK employ thousands of people and this would be lost if Silverstone was pulled from the calendar.

Come on Gordon, put your hand in your pocket, pull a few troops out of Iraq and get some money into one of the true British sports left. You know it makes sense.

[BoyBach]

Hamilton fuels rift with Alonso

Lewis Hamilton believes McLaren support him more than team-mate Fernando Alonso and says he has been forced to revise his opinion of the world champion.

The Englishman's remarks come in the light of Alonso's cool relationship with the team and breakdown in relations with boss Ron Dennis.

"Since what's gone on, they've realised who the real people are in the team and who they should really back," he said.

"[Alonso] is not the person I imagined him to be, but that's the way it is."

...

Hamilton said: "When you are in a relationship with a certain amount of people, you do the best job you can and want to show to everyone that you are the one for the team.

"In this situation, I was a rookie and he was the two-time world champion coming into the team.

"He is the one that was looked at to bring it home, but eventually I have earned more respect from them."

...

"It is just not something I have done at any team, asking for better equipment.

"I want to win it the right way. The best feeling ever is when you know you have won and you have beaten someone as talented as he is with the exact same equipment and exactly the same opportunity."

Hamilton said he had been surprised by Alonso's behaviour.

"You try to understand these people," he said, "but then the whole idea of what sort of person they are is completely miles out of the ball park."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7017501.stm


Some advice, Lewis: keep your mouth shut.

[sweetie81]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7017501.stm


Some advice, Lewis: keep your mouth shut.

Fernando might be a good driver and I respected him but his move in Spa in the first corner was unnecessary! He shouldn't have to use that moves. Instead, he should do what he can. Driving fast around tracks.

Anyway I really hope Lewis is gonna make it. Nice guy and probably better than Schumi.

[MacAnkka]

From the Finnish point of view: not a bad race, not a bad race at all :)

[sananda]

couldn't have gone any better from my point of view; maximum points for lewis and a dnf for the cheating selfish alonso.

[R.Youden]

Great result, great race.

It was a shame that it was so wet. When you have a bit of rain then you get some drivers cautious and some going flat out whilst when it is so wet you get almost everyone being very cautious.

[Counterfit]

probably better than Schumi.
Proving that is a loooong ways off. :p
Great result, great race.

It was a shame that it was so wet. When you have a bit of rain then you get some drivers cautious and some going flat out whilst when it is so wet you get almost everyone being very cautious.

I would have preferred a DNF for Lewis, but Alonso crashing out will do. I, also, prefer less than downpour levels when it does rain. While rain might be "the great equalizer" I think changing conditions really show who the best really is.

[JFreak]

From the Finnish point of view: not a bad race, not a bad race at all :)

Could've been better.

Strange thing Kimi said after the race, that somehow Ferrari wasn't informed about the jury decision of everyone having to start the race with rain tyres. Intermediates were not allowed thus Ferrari havd to do extra pit stop early in the race. If true, it easily cost him victory. Unbeliavable!

[bartelby]

I really don't believe Ferrari didn't know about the tyre order.
Also Massa needing that 4th pit stop is very suspect.

More Ferrari rule bending, shame it didn't work out for them this time...

[takao]

Could've been better.

Strange thing Kimi said after the race, that somehow Ferrari wasn't informed about the jury decision of everyone having to start the race with rain tyres. Intermediates were not allowed thus Ferrari havd to do extra pit stop early in the race. If true, it easily cost him victory. Unbeliavable!

actually the FIA only gives out a recommendation (they do it before every race afaik) .. they could start with other tires ... like they did

they simply gambled on the weather getting better

[Lord Blackadder]

It's really starting to look like Hamilton will do it...and Alonso's position at the team is looking less tenable every week, if all the off-track rumors are true.

[SpookTheHamster]

I couldn't believe what happened between Vettel and Webber. Vettel must be distraught, that was probably going to be the best finish he'll ever have in his career.

[xUKHCx]

I couldn't believe what happened between Vettel and Webber. Vettel must be distraught, that was probably going to be the best finish he'll ever have in his career.

According to todays Independent Webber was actually sick in his helmet on the grid and latter in the race. So it was a really bad day for Webber.

[sananda]

I couldn't believe what happened between Vettel and Webber. Vettel must be distraught, that was probably going to be the best finish he'll ever have in his career.

webber was darting around hamilton during the safety car period just before vettel hit him. i remember thinking at the time that he should calm down a bit otherwise he will hit hamilton. hamilton said in the post race press conference that he thought something bad was going to happen. they didn't show the actual collision on tv but i would be interested to see what happened as it wouldn't surprise me if webber got hit because he was driving erratically.

[Squonk]

And once again, we have RACING to talk about. Yeah. It was a fun race to watch. Well, perhaps not the first 14 laps.

I've been thinking about the whole "we didn't get the email" think from Ferrari and I'm thinking that this is really lame. Why would they start on the intermediate tires anyway? From the looks of the track, starting on anything other than full-wets looked foolish. And how is that even the broadcasters in America heard about the request/ruling on this.

Oh I know, Ferrari thought they might have an edge and then play dumb about not getting the email.

Me not being an Alonso fan, I was happy to see him virtually eliminated by the championship.

[bartelby]

According to todays Independent Webber was actually sick in his helmet on the grid and latter in the race. So it was a really bad day for Webber.

Yep, he'd had a dodgy curry the night before. I did like his swearing on live tv too.

[SpookTheHamster]

According to todays Independent Webber was actually sick in his helmet on the grid and latter in the race. So it was a really bad day for Webber.

I'd heard that. Being sick inside a crash helmet is something I never want to experience.

[Counterfit]

I'd heard that. Being sick inside a crash helmet is something I never want to experience.

I think I might give it a go. :confused:

[AndyR]

I'd heard that. Being sick inside a crash helmet is something I never want to experience.

A lad did this at a race meeting once where I was driving. He came back into the pits and sat in the car with his head down. A marshal when over and knelt down beside him....and then.......all out the visor :D

I had a wasp go in my helmet once!!! Thankfully I was only driving to the grid so I got it out pretty quick before it stung me.

[sweetie81]

Proving that is a loooong ways off. :p


Yes but Lewis is a very good driver. What he did in Japan was superb driving. Great Alonso didn't finish. So Lewis has less pressure to deal with.

[Lord Blackadder]

Flav wants Alonso back (http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40902)...I think it's just a matter of time now, eh?

[xUKHCx]

Busy news day today.

Hamilton under investigation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7027743.stm)

Formula One officials are investigating Lewis Hamilton's victory in Sunday's Japanese Grand Prix following complaints about erratic driving.

Red Bull's Mark Webber has accused the Englishman of doing a "bad job" behind the safety car after being knocked out of the race while following Hamilton.

Ferrari accused in F1 spy twist
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7027318.stm)

In the latest twist to the "spy-gate" saga, Stepney claims he received key information about McLaren's set-up.

"I got weight distribution, I got other aspects of various parts of their car, and I was Ferrari's employee at the time," he told www.grandprix.com.

[sananda]

Busy news day today.


as i said earlier in this thread, i thought it was webber who was driving erratically behind hamilton in the safety car period.

[bartelby]

as i said earlier in this thread, i thought it was webber who was driving erratically behind hamilton in the safety car period.

Considering the conditions I'd have thought keeping a decent distance between the cars would have been a good idea. Something neither of the STR's were doing, hence taking each other out.

I'm surprised Massa and Kubica haven't been pulled up for dangerous driving.

[JFreak]

Busy news day today.
Hamilton under investigation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7027743.stm)

Too bad FIA don't have the guts to penalise drivers rightfully after the race. If you break rules in race A, then FIA gives a grid penalty on race B — that's not right. Back in a day results would've been changed with for example 10 second time penalty for the rule breaking driver; which would in this case drop Hamilton from P1 to P3 thus making Kovalainen win the race. Not probably the way he would want to get his maiden victory, but I'd be happy with it.

But they don't have the guts, so my post is kind of nonsense...

EDIT: apparently Liuzzi got a 25 second time penalty. Same 25 second time penalty for Hamilton would put him to P4, giving Coulthard a P3

[JFreak]

Considering the conditions I'd have thought keeping a decent distance between the cars would have been a good idea.

I hate the whole idea of a safety car leading race cars for multiple laps. In my opinion, safety car should be out ther to bring race cars safely back into the pits! As soon as the track is safe again, cars could start from the pit lane just the same way they do during the last qualifying session. Or alternatively, leading cars out of the pits to the warm-up lap and then disappearing during the same lap.

Driving behind safety car is not racing.

[bartelby]

I hate the whole idea of a safety car leading race cars for multiple laps. In my opinion, safety car should be out ther to bring race cars safely back into the pits! As soon as the track is safe again, cars could start from the pit lane just the same way they do during the last qualifying session. Or alternatively, leading cars out of the pits to the warm-up lap and then disappearing during the same lap.

Driving behind safety car is not racing.

Yeah, but they won't do that because Bernie's TV company won't allow it.

[sananda]

I hate the whole idea of a safety car leading race cars for multiple laps. In my opinion, safety car should be out ther to bring race cars safely back into the pits!

stop the race?

[JFreak]

Yeah, but they won't do that because Bernie's TV company won't allow it.

Why? Watching people cleaning up the race track is more interesting than watching race cars running behind safety car.

[JFreak]

stop the race?

Yes, "pausing the race" would be more like it. Currently there are *no* pit strategies involved with the safety car, because of the new rules. So the race is effectively being paused beucase nothing happens when the safety car is out. At least nothing should happen, at least nothing like Japan.

Anyway, race-wise, it's just as good to drive cars to pits not allowing teams to do anything to the cars during the pause. They could even not allow drivers to step out of their cars, but I can't see why it would be a bad thing if someone went to toilet and the race started without him ;)

[bartelby]

Why? Watching people cleaning up the race track is more interesting than watching race cars running behind safety car.

Because of the whole broadcasting contracts and what not.

[JFreak]

Because of the whole broadcasting contracts and what not.

Contracts can be twisted. If it says "tv company will have to broadcast cars running on the track while the race is on" then someone could say "there is no racing while the safety car is running on the track" and therefore there would be no problem.

Cars running around with no racing is just stupid. Waste of time and fuel.

[sananda]

Yes, "pausing the race" would be more like it. Currently there are *no* pit strategies involved with the safety car, because of the new rules. So the race is effectively being paused beucase nothing happens when the safety car is out. At least nothing should happen, at least nothing like Japan.

Anyway, race-wise, it's just as good to drive cars to pits not allowing teams to do anything to the cars during the pause. They could even not allow drivers to step out of their cars, but I can't see why it would be a bad thing if someone went to toilet and the race started without him ;)

i think it's thought of as a tv show and the cars still being on the track gives the illusion of the show going on. plus i guess they can get feedback from all those people on the track as to the condition of the track.

[bartelby]

It's more to do with penalty payments to the broadcasting companies if there is no racing shown. Also if the race schedule overruns there are more penalty payments.

It's all about the money, nothing more.

[AlBDamned]

More twists this season... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7027743.stm)

Docking points from Hamilton and penalising him 10 places would really shake things up...

[sananda]

and there's also some sort of hearing to decide whether super aguri are entitled to points since they may not be a constructor (as their chassis is last year's honda) within the meaning of the concorde agreement. If sato is stripped of his places and the points reallocated, i think alonso will end up with one more point.

[bartelby]

This season has been an absolute shambles!!

[JFreak]

I'm surprised Massa and Kubica haven't been pulled up for dangerous driving.

Why would they? It's called "racing" and if you take it out from th F1, it's not worth watching anymore.

The last race made it clear that there would me a whole lot more racing in F1 if there would be less grip. That can be had by:

1) having a rain race
2) changing rules, so:
a) tyres would have less grip
b) aerodynamics would be less powerful
c) brakes would have less grip

IMO, changing tyre regulations has been worthless. Since the introduction of groove tyres in 1998 every year there has been more grip, with the exception of 2006 when you couldn't change tyres during the race (which was a good thing, except that they would have had to allow changing a tyre on dangerous conditions). Tyre companies have more knowhow about tyres than any FIA member, so FIA can never make such tyre rules that would serve the purpose. They can only enforce "a change", which teams would have to adapt, some faster than others but give it two years there is no difference.

Also, teams are "infintely" wiser than FIA about aerodynamics, so changing aero rules is not working. FIA could deny wings or such parts, but that would still not mean much. One thing that FIA could do and make sense would be denying changing the car during the season. Teams would have to give a spec car before the season and then after each race FIA would compare the race car to the spec given to them before the season. That would be cool :)

But still, braking is the most intersting aspect to me. Currently brakes are so great that the distance it takes to decelerate the car is close to nothing. If it took hundred meters more to make the car stop, there would also be more variance in when to begin braking. Now everyone brakes at the same spot, which makes overtaking very hard. Change regulations so brakes would lose power! That would mean drivers would have to adjust to the situation, but they surely would. After that, because nobody wants to hit the wall top speed, drivers would begin braking earlier; and that would again give drivers something to "race" about. Currently, you either hit it or miss it, but were the brakes so powerful, things would be a lot more interesting. Someone would be able to drive a turn a little faster, thus being able to brake a little later. Someone else would take it on the safe side and brake a little earlier. Those differences turn into overtaking opportunities more likely than adding one more groove to the tyres!

Anyway, this is way off-topic so I'm going to stop now.

[bartelby]

For the conditions of the track I think they were being reckless. I'm sure I heard Martin Brundle say the same thing.


I've always thought they should return to steel brakes.

[Counterfit]

I don't see why Kubica and Massa would be penalized. They both finished, and there really wasn't any incident to speak of, aside from each of them pushing the other off the track a bit on exit.

[AlBDamned]

Here's the Youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uElLrJit0zc) in question.

Lewis is likely more than five lengths from the safety car, god knows what he was playing at, but surely it's still Vettel's fault for crashing into Webber?

[R.Youden]

Here's the Youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uElLrJit0zc) in question.

Lewis is likely more than five lengths from the safety car, god knows what he was playing at, but surely it's still Vettel's fault for crashing into Webber?

Oh totally Vettel's fault, but Hamilton was driving erratically which will have an effect on the cars behind. Webber is not allowed to overtake Hamilton so when he slowed dramatically Webber had to brake suddenly and if Vettel was distracted by Hamilton diving to the right of the track then it would not help the situation.

The key is that when Webber was first interviewed he blamed Vettel and not Hamilton. I think there maybe a bit of mud stirring when this video came out.

[bartelby]

If Vettel had not crashed into Webber and they'd finished 2nd and 3rd, do you think Webber would still be complaining about Hamilton?

[R.Youden]

If Vettel had not crashed into Webber and they'd finished 2nd and 3rd, do you think Webber would still be complaining about Hamilton?

Yes!







i think Webber is a great driver but I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain quite so much! Mind you DC does his fair share too so the engineers at Red Bull get ear ache pretty quick.

[bartelby]

i think Webber is a great driver but I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain quite so much! .


How about:
Button, Rubens, Ross Brawn, Jean Todt, Ron Dennis and Ralf Schumacher?

[AlBDamned]

Is there any explanation as to why Hamilton would have driven like that, particularly veering so far away from the safety car makes it seem like he himself was distracted or had a problem?

Also, had he ever led a pack behind a safety car before?

[Markleshark]

Is there any explanation as to why Hamilton would have driven like that, particularly veering so far away from the safety car makes it seem like he himself was distracted or had a problem?

Also, had he ever led a pack behind a safety car before?

I'm not sure about F1, but there is no doubt he'll have done it before. No excuse for that, actually, I hope they do at least punish him in some way because they've set precedents in the past.

[AlBDamned]

I'm not sure about F1, but there is no doubt he'll have done it before. No excuse for that, actually, I hope they do at least punish him in some way because they've set precedents in the past.

You're right, he probably has followed a safety car at some stage, but I'm not so sure he should be penalised. It looks a bit like he lost his way himself and the rain could be given as a reason for dispensation.

Whatever happens, aybe it would be good for him to lose his Japan points and then win the next two straight and still take the title :p

[xUKHCx]

Is there any explanation as to why Hamilton would have driven like that, particularly veering so far away from the safety car makes it seem like he himself was distracted or had a problem?

Also, had he ever led a pack behind a safety car before?

Having watched the video it is clear that it is Vettels fault. Webber was crusiing and so was Vettel then it seems as if he loses concentration and either accelerates or Webber brakes. If this happened out on the road then it is no doubt whose fault it is the person behind. In those conditions the tolerable limits of driving should be extended. However if the incident is under investigation then it can come down purely on a technical point which this video shows Hamilton was not within the required distance of the safety car. However due to the conditions it will come down to judgement and testimonials. Hamilton can claim that following the line of the safety car was in a line of too much spray and thus dangerous hence him moving out to the edge of the track. In all honesty I don't see the blame lying on hamiltons shoulders but who knows what they will decide.

Didn't hamilton lead the pack behind the safety car before (Canada after Kubicas accident??) and there was some controversy then as well, relating to distances to the safety car also. However that was in the dry and it was shown that hamilton was perfectly within the rules IIRC.

[sananda]

but Hamilton was driving erratically

i don't see why you think hamilton was driving erratically.

[mad jew]

Well he kinda just pulled to the side and practically stopped. That's pretty weird.

[sananda]

but that's what they tend to do behind a safety car...move around from side to side, accelerate and then brake hard...to try to retain some heat in the tyres.

[mad jew]

True, but hardly to the extent Hamilton showed.

[bartelby]

True, but hardly to the extent Hamilton showed.

Heat into the brakes would be the issue. With that amount of water around braking harder would generate more heat.

[emotion]

When do we hear of the results of the FIA's inquiry? Anyone know?

[xUKHCx]

When do we hear of the results of the FIA's inquiry? Anyone know?

From the BBC

If he is found guilty on Friday, he may have his 10 points from Japan erased.

I guess that is so they can impose any sanctions against Hamilton during this weekends Grand Prix

[JFreak]

I cannot believe FIA simply erases his points, that's not going to happen. More likely penalty would be giving him the 25 second time penalty, which would mean Hamilton dropping from P1 to P4, giving Kovalainen his maiden victory, Kimi P2 and DC P3.

That would also make championship battle more interesting, because Hamilton would be at 102, Alonso 7 points behind and Kimi 10 points behind.

[bartelby]

I cannot believe FIA simply erases his points, that's not going to happen. More likely penalty would be giving him the 25 second time penalty, which would mean Hamilton dropping from P1 to P4, giving Kovalainen his maiden victory, Kimi P2 and DC P3.

That would also make championship battle more interesting, because Hamilton would be at 102, Alonso 7 points behind and Kimi 10 points behind.

I can't remember the FIA using time penalties. They usually use punishments for the next race or dock the points. I can see him being given a 10 spot grid penalty for the weekend.

[emotion]

I cannot believe FIA simply erases his points, that's not going to happen. More likely penalty would be giving him the 25 second time penalty, which would mean Hamilton dropping from P1 to P4, giving Kovalainen his maiden victory, Kimi P2 and DC P3.

That would also make championship battle more interesting, because Hamilton would be at 102, Alonso 7 points behind and Kimi 10 points behind.

I'd say more likely would be a 10 place penalty for the start of the Chinese race.

I guess we'll see.

[emotion]

Cleared. Common sense prevails.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7029797.stm

[sananda]

Cleared. Common sense prevails.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7029797.stm

good. thanks for the heads up.

[R.Youden]

I am glad they sorted that one out. And to remove Vettels 10 place drop is the right thing to do too. Don't they think that he suffered enough being denied a podium and probably getting a rocket up his back-side too?

At the moment they appear to be giving out penalties like they are going out of fashion. Just let them race. Has anyone ever heard of a 'racing incident'?

[xUKHCx]

Cleared. Common sense prevails.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7029797.stm

Thats good but the last part of the article is rather confusing

And BBC 5live commentator David Croft, who is in Shanghai for this weekend's race, had questioned the accuracy of reports that an investigation into Hamilton's driving was ongoing.

He said: "We're now being told it's not really an investigation but that the three drivers have been called in to see the stewards.

"It's where the story of the investigation are being spun from. We've never been categorically told by the stewards that they are investigating what happened.

"Lewis should be completely in the clear but why was that story put around that there would be an investigation?

"Is that trying to destabilise a man that has come here to win a world title?"



Seems like it wasn't even an investigation and has been made into something it wasn't by the media(?)

[Lord Blackadder]

It seems that Hamilton slowed pretty drastically, but it also seems that Vettel was at fault for hitting Webber...

I think we should call the engraver on Hamilton's championship. But I have to say that after the events of this season all of McLaren seems tainted to me. Alonso is a primadonna a-hole, the team is populated with cheaters and Hamilton seems a bit of a brat. Granted, the media storm that constantly surrounds Hamilton makes it hard to tell what is real and what is fabricated by the press.

[sananda]

It seems that Hamilton slowed pretty drastically, but it also seems that Vettel was at fault for hitting Webber...

I think we should call the engraver on Hamilton's championship. But I have to say that after the events of this season all of McLaren seems tainted to me. Alonso is a primadonna a-hole, the team is populated with cheaters and Hamilton seems a bit of a brat. Granted, the media storm that constantly surrounds Hamilton makes it hard to tell what is real and what is fabricated by the press.

i think mclaren are by nature an honourable organisation. i don't think hamilton is a prat at all. i am amazed by his composure and skill in his first year. i do agree with you that alonso is a primadonna. as far as i can see (from having the transcripts of the world council hearing) the cheaters are alonso, de la rosa (who didn't seem to even realise he was doing anything wrong) and mccoughlin. between the three of them they have cost mclaren $100 million dollars, the constructor's championship, travel benefits, and their nice pit allocation for next year. alonso is incredible. he obtains confidential information from mccoughlin and de la rosa, threatens his boss with telling the FIA that he has been cheating (unless he is given preferential treatment over someone who is beating him), when he doesn't get what he wants he sends the evidence of his own cheating to bernie ecclestone (who passed it to the FIA) so that his cheating gets the whole team in trouble, and then refuses to turn up to the hearing into his own cheating. out of all this, he emerges scott free (for which the world council must take responsibility).

another prat in this is luca de montezemola who is, without any supporting evidence, quite deliberately saying that if hamilton wins it is thanks to ferrari since, he claims, there is a lot of ferrari in the mclaren.

[R.Youden]

i think mclaren are by nature an honourable organisation.

McLaren is a very arrogant organisation. I know a few people who left them because they where told to walk around like winners, behave like they had won. If you see another team in the airport (which the often do for fly-away races) make sure you are first on the plane and first off. If necessary 'barge' your-way to the front. Not many people like that attitude and it didn't go down too well when they where not very successful a few years ago.

[R.Youden]

You can say what you want about Hamilton but that lap was amazing! To come from 4th and finish so far ahead of Alonso was brilliant. Hopefully his car is set-up for the wet tomorrow.

[bartelby]

You can say what you want about Hamilton but that lap was amazing! To come from 4th and finish so far ahead of Alonso was brilliant. Hopefully his car is set-up for the wet tomorrow.

Maybe he's hoping for a safety car tomorrow:D

[AlBDamned]

How will the sport get on without Schumacher? Will Hamilton be able to cope with Alonso? Will Kimi finally get a car capable of finishing every race? Will Massa have a chance of the title? Can Button build on the second half of last year?

My predictions for the championship:

1. Raikkonen
2. Alonso
3. Button
4. Massa
5. Barrichello
6. Hamilton

I really don't see Renault being at the races this year. I am sure Kovalainen will prove to be a good long term replacement for Alonso, but not next year. I think Honda will push on (I am bound to say that arn't I!) and Barrichello will be more able to put pressure on Button which will only benefit the team and hopefully they will grab the odd win. Hamilton will do OK but I fear that the McLaren will do its usual firework displays! I think that Ferrari will just have the edge over everyone else and they will have a very reliable car that is just that little bit quicker.

What does everyone else think

Hey guys, I opened this thread just now and it came up with the first posts. Makes for interesting reference today! Hopefully Hamilton can continue this excellent weekend for English sport... :D

[R.Youden]

Hey guys, I opened this thread just now and it came up with the first posts. Makes for interesting reference today! Hopefully Hamilton can continue this excellent weekend for English sport... :D

Well I was speaking utter rubbish wasn't I!

I mean if you take Honda out of the equation then it wasn't far off. I was right about Renault not being in contention! Ah well. I will go back and watch the race now on the horrific coverage from ITV. Why do they have to have good luck messages from the England Rugby Team? What a load of rubbish.

[bartelby]

Gah!!!!!

Wtf!!

[robbieduncan]

Gah!!!!!

Wtf!!

I don't know: I'm stuck without any live TV coverage here in Oz. I'm reduced to the live timing on the F1 site :(

The text commentary made it sound like a driver error partially caused by a worn tyre?

[swiftaw]

I don't know: I'm stuck without any live TV coverage here in Oz. I'm reduced to the live timing on the F1 site :(

The text commentary made it sound like a driver error partially caused by a worn tyre?

His tired were totally shot, as in had holes in them. Came into the pits where it was still wet, turned the corner, car didn't turn, ended up in the gravel and was stuck

[bartelby]

I don't know: I'm stuck without any live TV coverage here in Oz. I'm reduced to the live timing on the F1 site :(

The text commentary made it sound like a driver error partially caused by a worn tyre?

More team error for not calling him in several laps earlier.

[sananda]

More team error for not calling him in several laps earlier.

i can't believe it.

[bartelby]

i can't believe it.

Ron Dennis messes things up then by trying to stretch Hamilton's knackered tyres...