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MacRumors
Jan 9, 2007, 01:38 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/09/apple-quietly-releases-802-11n-capable-airport-extreme/)


Although not mentioned during Steve Jobs' keynote address, Apple has updated their Airport Extreme (http://www.apple.com/airportextreme/) base station to include 802.11n compatibility, producing up to 5x the performance and up to 2x the range as the previous Airport Extreme model. The new model also comes in a modified enclosure that closely resembles the Apple TV (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2007/01/20070109124129.shtml).

Features
- Protocol Support: 802.11 a/b/g/draft-n
- WEP/WPA/WPA2 for wireless security

Ports
- 1 USB (for sharing printers or USB Disk sharing)
- 1 10/100 BASE-T Ethernet WAN port for connecting to Internet
- 3 10/100 BASE-T Ethernet LAN ports for connecting to local networked devices.
- Security slot and 12v power.

It also appears as though users of Core 2 Duo-based Macs which have been quietly shipping with 802.11n capable chipsets will be receiving "802.11n Enabler" software. The software is listed on the Airport Extreme specification page (http://www.apple.com/airportextreme/specs.html).

The new base station is priced at $179 and will ship in February, and can be purchased at the Apple Store (http://www.dailytunes.com/applestore.php) (UK Apple Store (http://r.macrumorslive.com/ukstore)).

A transcript and keynote photos from our live coverage are still available (http://www.macrumors.com/events/mwsf2007.html).

Update: According to both the Airport Extreme specification page and a 802.11 explanation page (http://www.apple.com/wireless/80211/) on Apple's website, it appears that the 802.11n Enabler software will only ship with the Airport Extreme.

Article Link: Apple Quietly Releases 802.11n Capable Airport Extreme [Updated] (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/09/apple-quietly-releases-802-11n-capable-airport-extreme/)



iEdd
Jan 9, 2007, 01:43 PM
Nice. It will be interesting to see when Express gets an update.

bearbo
Jan 9, 2007, 01:44 PM
no gigabit ethernet? eh...

ebow
Jan 9, 2007, 01:47 PM
Wow, it's more than half the volume of the Mac mini (same footprint, over half the height). ... That seems rather big to me, but to be honest I haven't been around too many wireless base stations / routers. Is this a bit bulky?

wattage
Jan 9, 2007, 01:48 PM
Definitely like the hard drive sharing capability, but no firewire port???

Chef Medeski
Jan 9, 2007, 01:51 PM
Wow, it's more than half the volume of the Mac mini (same footprint, over half the height). ... That seems rather big to me, but to be honest I haven't been around too many wireless base stations / routers. Is this a bit bulky?

Well I think its about the same size as most routers. It doesnt really matter too much since routers are usually tucked away somewhere hidden.

miketcool
Jan 9, 2007, 01:51 PM
Now for the MBP wireless 802.11 N card to show up in the store....

macman2790
Jan 9, 2007, 01:53 PM
will the 802.11n enabler be available for download if im not using an airport extreme n router, i have an n router.

dr_lha
Jan 9, 2007, 01:53 PM
Hard drive sharing is nice, but $179? Seriously?

This plus the AppleTV that won't work with a standard television and no iPhone until June means this will be the first keynote day where I haven't ordered something from the Apple Store.

KindredMAC
Jan 9, 2007, 01:54 PM
In my opinion this was the biggest release today.... not the iPhone and not the ?tv.

I'm seriously thinking about getting this to replace my current APEXTREME because I have a new need to run one extra Ethernet cable off of the base station to my PS3.

Plus the extended range is a nice tweak.

rosalindavenue
Jan 9, 2007, 01:55 PM
My gut reaction was "too expensive," but the feature set is hard to price. There is the announced but unreleased Linksys WRT600N, (link (http://tinyurl.com/ygt95k)) with an identical feature (N routing plus UBS port) set PLUS gigabit ethernet (according to some rumors) that is allegedly priced at $199, so it could be my gut is wrong.

Chef Medeski
Jan 9, 2007, 01:57 PM
Hard drive sharing is nice, but $179? Seriously?

This plus the AppleTV that won't work with a standard television and no iPhone until June means this will be the first keynote day where I haven't ordered something from the Apple Store.

Actually thats just in line with most Pre-N routers. Basic ones can run a bit cheaper at Best BUy and stuff on sale but they don't have all the features or simplicity. Overall you will be losing maybe $20-30 which isn't bad for an Apple premium when comparing to the BASIC models. So it really is a very fair price.

Plus its only $160 at edu store. So its hard to beat that.

emaja
Jan 9, 2007, 01:59 PM
no gigabit ethernet? eh...

Nope and that's a deal-breaker for me. It seems terribly silly that all currently shipping Macs have gigabit, yet they chose to leave it off the one thing that could tie them all together.

I'll get a Netgear with Draft-N and lose the USB port since I have a network for file sharing and printers shared along with a server setup already.

uNext
Jan 9, 2007, 02:01 PM
No airtunes?

So lash out 299 for apple tv for every room to have wireless msuic?

WOW middle finger to us from yours truly STEVE JOBS

Rocketman
Jan 9, 2007, 02:02 PM
Steve Jobs interview on CNBC momentarily.

4:30pm Eastern
1:30 pm Pacific

Rocketman

dr_lha
Jan 9, 2007, 02:05 PM
Actually thats just in line with most Pre-N routers. Basic ones can run a bit cheaper at Best BUy and stuff on sale but they don't have all the features or simplicity. Overall you will be losing maybe $20-30 which isn't bad for an Apple premium when comparing to the BASIC models. So it really is a very fair price.

Plus its only $160 at edu store. So its hard to beat that.

Fair enough really, I guess it is new tech. The trouble is that if its anything like the other Apple Airport basestations, its price will remain the same while everyone else's plummets. I'm guessing in about 12 months time when I really start to feel I need a "N" router, the Linksys one will be $49 at Walmart, much like their "G" router was when I bought it, but Apple's product will still be $179.

bradleypjohnson
Jan 9, 2007, 02:08 PM
Is AirPort Disk a brand new feature? I was going to get an AP Express and forgo the possibility of my external USB hard drive being wirelessly available, but now this...

And I can't just get the AP Extreme instead, since it doesn't have an audio out. I wonder if they will add AP Disk to a much needed AP Express update soon?

Chef Medeski
Jan 9, 2007, 02:09 PM
No airtunes?

So lash out 299 for apple tv for every room to have wireless msuic?

WOW middle finger to us from yours truly STEVE JOBS

I'm pretty sure you can still use the Aiport Express with this. I mean you don't really need anymore bandwith to stream music so whats the point making it N. The only thing you are missing out on is the maximum extended range, the range will still be extended slightly with any N component. So, nothing really changed. Except that the price for the Aiport Express and Extreme are the same.... better drop the price.

Wender
Jan 9, 2007, 02:10 PM
No airtunes?

So lash out 299 for apple tv for every room to have wireless msuic?

WOW middle finger to us from yours truly STEVE JOBS

Airport Express will still be fine for music streaming!

michaelsaxon
Jan 9, 2007, 02:11 PM
So no download to update to "N" for Core Duo Macbook Pros?

shifuimam
Jan 9, 2007, 02:12 PM
Nope and that's a deal-breaker for me. It seems terribly silly that all currently shipping Macs have gigabit, yet they chose to leave it off the one thing that could tie them all together.

You would think, especially with streaming movies over the new AppleTV...which also, by the way, does not have gigabit.

At least Apple finally realized it was probably a good idea to put more than one LAN port on the router...

Chef Medeski
Jan 9, 2007, 02:13 PM
Fair enough really, I guess it is new tech. The trouble is that if its anything like the other Apple Airport basestations, its price will remain the same while everyone else's plummets. I'm guessing in about 12 months time when I really start to feel I need a "N" router, the Linksys one will be $49 at Walmart, much like their "G" router was when I bought it, but Apple's product will still be $179.

Better than a $300 Base station when others are $50. :rolleyes:

dongmin
Jan 9, 2007, 02:13 PM
The lack of Gigabit Ethernet is puzzling, but I guess you use the wireless for more-than-100Mbit bandwidth.

I'll wait to see the benchmarks on this thing working with a MBP.

JeffDM
Jan 9, 2007, 02:14 PM
If it had gigabit ethernet, the price would probably be pretty good, but it does not. Given that every Mac sold now has gig-e, I don't understand why this thing does not.

Danksi
Jan 9, 2007, 02:17 PM
This plus the AppleTV that won't work with a standard television

Doesn't the AppleTV support 'standard' TV through it's Component connector?

Squonk
Jan 9, 2007, 02:21 PM
The lack of Gigabit Ethernet is puzzling, but I guess you use the wireless for more-than-100Mbit bandwidth.

I'll wait to see the benchmarks on this thing working with a MBP.

I agree that the lack of Gigabit Ethernet is most curious. I'm hoping this is a typo on the specs...

I'm pretty sure you can still use the Aiport Express with this. I mean you don't really need anymore bandwith to stream music so whats the point making it N. The only thing you are missing out on is the maximum extended range, the range will still be extended slightly with any N component. So, nothing really changed. Except that the price for the Aiport Express and Extreme are the same.... better drop the price.

Well, the Airport Express is now $99 new. So, the refurbs when they come back in stock should be something like $79. I'd love to see it more like 59 or 69, but I doubt it. If it were low enough, then I'd pick up a couple more for each room of the house.

I, for one, think it's OK that the Extreme does not have airtunes on it. It's unlikely that I'd need airtunes where I have my remote drive or printer and WAN connection. That's all in my office where my PB usually sits anyway.

combatcolin
Jan 9, 2007, 02:22 PM
If you connected an external USB HD would you still need a computer switched on in order for the Apple TV to access it?

Tempted but don't want a computer (Mac or PC) acting as a server on all the time, too expensive on electric bills.

bearbo
Jan 9, 2007, 02:23 PM
So no download to update to "N" for Core Duo Macbook Pros?

don't you need draft-N ready hardware to use it? i mean... it's not just a software issue that a patch or firmware could help?

and i think CD MBP don't have those?

Chef Medeski
Jan 9, 2007, 02:24 PM
I agree that the lack of Gigabit Ethernet is most curious. I'm hoping this is a typo on the specs...



Well, the Airport Express is now $99 new. So, the refurbs when they come back in stock should be something like $79. I'd love to see it more like 59 or 69, but I doubt it. If it were low enough, then I'd pick up a couple more for each room of the house.

I, for one, think it's OK that the Extreme does not have airtunes on it. It's unlikely that I'd need airtunes where I have my remote drive or printer and WAN connection. That's all in my office where my PB usually sits anyway.
I'm sure airtunes will still work.

But if refurb is $79, which is the edu price. That means you can not buy them used for $50 or less. Nice... I'm going to have to convert.

bearbo
Jan 9, 2007, 02:29 PM
too expensive on electric bills.

are you serious? how much is your electric bills? i have 2 computers, 2 printers, 1 router, 2 speaker set, one refrigerator, one central air conditioner, and other small things on 24/7 and my bill in the SUMMER is only like 30USD/month

uNext
Jan 9, 2007, 02:29 PM
Airport Express will still be fine for music streaming!

I know that but i mean if they are going to release a new protocol with their
wireless routers why leave out airtunes?

Give us choices dont force what you think is good to us.

I personally rather have airtunes then appletv.

I mean the range is greater i currently have 1 AP

dernhelm
Jan 9, 2007, 02:30 PM
Perfect. I just ordered one. Wish it shipped before Feb, but it'll be worth it if it's Apple TV ready. All I'll need now is to order an external USB hard disk, hook it up to the airport extreme router, and I'm time-machine ready - on both my iMac and PowerBook.

Nice!

~Shard~
Jan 9, 2007, 02:34 PM
I agree with the other posters, the absence of 1000BT is puzzling, although I guess for Gigabit Ethernet you could always just use the wireless-n capability. Still though, I don't know why there woulnd;t be a wired option as well... :confused:

combatcolin
Jan 9, 2007, 02:34 PM
are you serious? how much is your electric bills? i have 2 computers, 2 printers, 1 router, 2 speaker set, one refrigerator, one central air conditioner, and other small things on 24/7 and my bill in the SUMMER is only like 30USD/month

My monthly expenditure is quite high enough thank you.

I think i'd rather upgrade my PC to watch 1080P QT on my 24" Dell.

bearda
Jan 9, 2007, 02:35 PM
Doesn't the AppleTV support 'standard' TV through it's Component connector?

The website makes it look like it doesn't. Wow, that makes me not even marginally interested in the AppleTV now.

What you need.
* Widescreen TV
* Mac or PC
* iTunes 7.1 or later
* Wired or wireless network
* HDMI cable or
* Component video cables and analog audio cables or optical audio cable

Apple TV works with widescreen, enhanced-definition or high-definition TVs capable of 1080i, 720p, 576p, or 480p resolutions, including popular models from these manufacturers.

Andrew Beard

KindredMAC
Jan 9, 2007, 02:37 PM
I don't understand the concerns from some about 2 things:

-AirTunes: Why would you need AirTunes on the APEXT? That is why Apple has brought out the ?tv. ?tv will take the place of AirTunes, just this way through the TV/Home Theater setup.

-Gigabit Ethernet: I can understand SOME concerns here but for what most will be using it for, I don't think it is a really serious issue. I like it because it now makes the APEXT a half way decent router.

Let's just look at the APEXT as the best thing out of today!

Kelmon
Jan 9, 2007, 02:38 PM
Definitely like the hard drive sharing capability, but no firewire port???

This was also my first reaction. My second reaction was "why aren't there 2 USB ports?" Seriously, if you want to take advantage of both the shared hard drive and shared printer then you have to swap the devices in and out of the sole USB sockets. I was pretty much all-in on this one until I noted that so now I'm not so sure. Call me demanding but if you're going to offer these features then you need to provide the facility to do both at the same time.

Anyone know if printers or external hard drives can be daisy chained together so that the lack of a 2nd USB port isn't too limiting?

Chef Medeski
Jan 9, 2007, 02:38 PM
I know that but i mean if they are going to release a new protocol with their
wireless routers why leave out airtunes?

Give us choices dont force what you think is good to us.

I personally rather have airtunes then appletv.

I mean the range is greater i currently have 1 AP

UMMMM Airtunes still works. Its G.... that works with n. Its not like there is something magical with n that won't make it work. Think of Apple TV as AirVideo. You can buy either or both how many want. They are going to work with either Aiport Base station new or old.

Wender
Jan 9, 2007, 02:40 PM
The website makes it look like it doesn't. Wow, that makes me not even marginally interested in the AppleTV now.

What you need.
* Widescreen TV
* Mac or PC
* iTunes 7.1 or later
* Wired or wireless network
* HDMI cable or
* Component video cables and analog audio cables or optical audio cable

Apple TV works with widescreen, enhanced-definition or high-definition TVs capable of 1080i, 720p, 576p, or 480p resolutions, including popular models from these manufacturers.

Andrew Beard

It has component out. There is no way for a regular TV to tell that this analogue signal isn't supposed to be shown. It will work just fine.

Chef Medeski
Jan 9, 2007, 02:40 PM
This was also my first reaction. My second reaction was "why aren't there 2 USB ports?" Seriously, if you want to take advantage of both the shared hard drive and shared printer then you have to swap the devices in and out of the sole USB sockets. I was pretty much all-in on this one until I noted that so now I'm not so sure. Call me demanding but if you're going to offer these features then you need to provide the facility to do both at the same time.

Anyone know if printers or external hard drives can be daisy chained together so that the lack of a 2nd USB port isn't too limiting?

Just hook up a USB 2.0 hub. It says right on the page.

dernhelm
Jan 9, 2007, 02:42 PM
Perfect. I just ordered one. Wish it shipped before Feb, but it'll be worth it if it's Apple TV ready. All I'll need now is to order an external USB hard disk, hook it up to the airport extreme router, and I'm time-machine ready - on both my iMac and PowerBook.

Nice!

rog
Jan 9, 2007, 02:45 PM
If I were in the market, I'd get some $29 g router on Amazon instead. What a rip off!

tilman
Jan 9, 2007, 02:46 PM
Anyone know if printers or external hard drives can be daisy chained together so that the lack of a 2nd USB port isn't too limiting?

Just use a USB hub. It mentions that on the Apple website. It appears that this device uses the same footprint as the MacMini. So you can get an USB hub that is designed to fit under the MacMini, and put it nicely underneath this new base station, too. Of course, having a second USB port would make live a lot easier.

Eniregnat
Jan 9, 2007, 02:47 PM
Airport Express $99 (usually this means refurbs at $79)
Older Airport Extreme $129

They might be trying to get rid of the Airport Express, for either a revision or to retire it.

bearda
Jan 9, 2007, 02:48 PM
-Gigabit Ethernet: I can understand SOME concerns here but for what most will be using it for, I don't think it is a really serious issue. I like it because it now makes the APEXT a half way decent router.

Let's just look at the APEXT as the best thing out of today!

Seeing as the APEXT is the only thing that really came out today, you could also view it as the worst...

Seriously, though, I do view the lack of gigabit ethernet as an oversight. It just seems silly for Apple, of all companies to make a devices that doesn't seemlessly integrate with the rest of their products. If I want to network two macs sitting side-by-side together and share an internet connection, I will get better performance out of a competetor's product. Doesn't that seem strange to anyone else?

Andrew Beard

maxp1
Jan 9, 2007, 02:48 PM
Reading the fine print it seems like if a non-"n" device joins the network you loose the advantages of "n". YIKES!!! So hooking up your Airport Express to stream music makes this a 'g' router.

I need to upgrade my current hub but I think I"m going to wait or look for a non-apple product.

lamina
Jan 9, 2007, 02:54 PM
Finally more than 1 wired port...

Chef Medeski
Jan 9, 2007, 02:54 PM
Reading the fine print it seems like if a non-"n" device joins the network you loose the advantages of "n". YIKES!!! So hooking up your Airport Express to stream music makes this a 'g' router.

I need to upgrade my current hub but I think I"m going to wait or look for a non-apple product.

You lose the n capablities of the g device. :rolleyes:

Which is pretty obvious, you cant utilize new technology to its fullest if one side doesn't have it.

Its the same thing as g and b guys. You can use B devices with a g router, just not to as great a speed or distance. You can use all g and b devices with n except the device wont be as fast or be able to go as far back. The router doesnt change. If you had a g laptop and a n laptop. The n would get more coverage and faster speeds, but it wouldnt get the same as g just because its present.

danielwsmithee
Jan 9, 2007, 02:55 PM
No airtunes?

So lash out 299 for apple tv for every room to have wireless msuic?

WOW middle finger to us from yours truly STEVE JOBSThe Airport Express is still available and works perfectly fine for music sharing.

Squonk
Jan 9, 2007, 03:02 PM
Reading the fine print it seems like if a non-"n" device joins the network you loose the advantages of "n". YIKES!!! So hooking up your Airport Express to stream music makes this a 'g' router.

I need to upgrade my current hub but I think I"m going to wait or look for a non-apple product.

OK, now that blows. In my house, I would want a AExp for audio streaming in some rooms and then ATV by the home theater equipment and an AExt in the office with the cable modem, printer and external drive. But, by virtue of having an G (or heaven forbid, my old iMac G3 with B) my N speed will downshift to G or B. Argh. OK, I could ditch the G3, that's not a problem, but I'm not ready to ditch my Express or my PB.

Just hook up a USB 2.0 hub. It says right on the page.

I'm glad they anticipated this. Very slick. So, you could have a couple of drives and printers online. Very nice.

And like someone else mentioned, this is perfect for Time Machine and all the machines in your house. Outstanding!

danielwsmithee
Jan 9, 2007, 03:12 PM
The website makes it look like it doesn't. Wow, that makes me not even marginally interested in the AppleTV now. If you have component video connectors chances are your TV will support 480p. You may find a few TV's that have component that only do 480i but they are pretty rare. If you don't have component your screwed though.

shamino
Jan 9, 2007, 03:12 PM
don't you need draft-N ready hardware to use it? i mean... it's not just a software issue that a patch or firmware could help?

and i think CD MBP don't have those?
Check out this link (http://www.apple.com/wireless/80211/). It says:
Does my Mac support 802.11n?

These Mac computers support 802.11n in the new AirPort Extreme Base Station using the included enabler software:

iMac with Intel Core 2 Duo (except 17-inch, 1.83GHz iMac)
MacBook with Intel Core 2 Duo
MacBook Pro with Intel Core 2 Duo
Mac Pro with AirPort Extreme card option

Obviously, these late-model Macs include N-compatible hardware and simply had the feature disabled.
I agree with the other posters, the absence of 1000BT is puzzling, although I guess for Gigabit Ethernet you could always just use the wireless-n capability. Still though, I don't know why there woulnd;t be a wired option as well... :confused:
I suspect it's because GigE is still a bit pricey. At a local store, a 5-port 10/100 switch (the smallest you can buy) costs $15-40. A 5-port GigE switch costs $40-100. This tells me that upgrading the AirPort's internal switch to GigE would increase the price by about $30-50.

Given the fact that people are complaining about a $180 pricetag now, an even higher price would be a bad idea.

If you need GigE, you can still attach one of the AirPort's ports to a GigE switch. You won't get faster than 100Mbps between the switch and the wireless network, but that may not translate to a real-world problem, since most users rarely saturate their available bandwidth to begin with.
If I were in the market, I'd get some $29 g router on Amazon instead. What a rip off!
That router would have a theoretical top speed of 54Mbps, vs. 270Mbps - a 5:1 difference. And that cheap router will have no printer sharing and no file-server capabilities.

I think you should go re-read the specs.

Compared against other pre-n routers, Apple's price is quite competitive.

flopticalcube
Jan 9, 2007, 03:16 PM
OK, now that blows. In my house, I would want a AExp for audio streaming in some rooms and then ATV by the home theater equipment and an AExt in the office with the cable modem, printer and external drive. But, by virtue of having an G (or heaven forbid, my old iMac G3 with B) my N speed will downshift to G or B. Argh. OK, I could ditch the G3, that's not a problem, but I'm not ready to ditch my Express or my PB.


Buy a cheap b/g router and hook it up to the APExt. Two networks: one fast, one slow.

FriarTuck
Jan 9, 2007, 03:17 PM
I keep reading on MacRumors that if I'm getting an external hard drive I want to be sure to spend the extra 20 bucks to get one with Firewire capability. And now Apple releases a shiny new router without Firewire capability.

Somebody who knows something about this: I'm looking to set up a 500gig hard drive to be shared via Airport by my laptop, 2 eMacs, and iMac. Am I going to be unhappy with speed, reliability, or some other functionality if I buy this new Airport router and a USB 2.0 MyBook (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=232&language=en)?:confused:

pfm
Jan 9, 2007, 03:21 PM
You lose the n capablities of the g device. :rolleyes:

Which is pretty obvious, you cant utilize new technology to its fullest if one side doesn't have it.

Its the same thing as g and b guys. You can use B devices with a g router, just not to as great a speed or distance. You can use all g and b devices with n except the device wont be as fast or be able to go as far back. The router doesnt change. If you had a g laptop and a n laptop. The n would get more coverage and faster speeds, but it wouldnt get the same as g just because its present.

Hey Chef, no reason to condescend, especially when you have no facts or hands-on experience to back up your assertion. Here is what Apple says about this issue:

Comparison assumes AirPort Extreme network with 802.11n-enabled computer. Speed and range will be less if an 802.11a/b/g product joins the network.

Of course, this is so vague as to be useless. What exactly does 'less' mean? G speed? Or somewhere between G and N? Doesn't say. It certainly DOES imply though that the speed of the network itself will be slower if a B or G device joins it, so it looks like you are wrong. Thanks for the misinformation.

Like most people I would have N and G devices on the network (2 N, 4 G) so getting a real answer for this question from Apple is important. I would only be upgrading for the faster speed and greater signal strength, so if these are diminished to G, then I have no reason to upgrade. We really need to get some true info about this.

Multimedia
Jan 9, 2007, 03:24 PM
The description says lots of Macs have N inside. I know of NONE that really do. Do you? :confused:

And where's the freaking 1000 base T Gigabit Ethernet for the local network?!?! :mad:

dvashawn
Jan 9, 2007, 03:26 PM
Well...

GigE - weird it isn't included, but is there really much of an advantage unless you have two or more (bout' time for more than one LAN port) puters in the same room to transfer files to and fro? I don't think 100 is going to be a bottleneck in even an N network.

USB hard drives - SWEET!

And the one thing nobody has addressed yet...the aesthetic. The sides are white! With it's mini/iTV (I'm sorry, I know they couldn't name it that but AppleTV sounds early 90s dorkish to me) footprint it is begging to be stacked, but the mini and iTV both have silver sides. Nit picky, but annoying.

flopticalcube
Jan 9, 2007, 03:30 PM
I keep reading on MacRumors that if I'm getting an external hard drive I want to be sure to spend the extra 20 bucks to get one with Firewire capability. And now Apple releases a shiny new router without Firewire capability.

Somebody who knows something about this: I'm looking to set up a 500gig hard drive to be shared via Airport by my laptop, 2 eMacs, and iMac. Am I going to be unhappy with speed, reliability, or some other functionality if I buy this new Airport router and a USB 2.0 MyBook (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=232&language=en)?:confused:

If any lower (b or g) device joins the network, your performance will degrade (to b or g). If you have an n-cabable mac you could always set up two networks, one b/g with a cheapo router and one n with the APExt.

maxp1
Jan 9, 2007, 03:31 PM
You lose the n capablities of the g device. :rolleyes:

Which is pretty obvious, you cant utilize new technology to its fullest if one side doesn't have it.

That's not how I read the fine print.

Based on a comparison with Apple’s 802.11g products. Comparison assumes AirPort Extreme network with 802.11n-enabled computer. Speed and range will be less if an 802.11a/b/g product joins the network.

It could be that just the lower speed device has a lower speed. But I read that as "if a lower spec device joins the network then the higher spec is disabled." Some old ethernet hubs used to work this way.

I would think if only the slower device had slower throughput then the phrasing would be more like "Speed and range will be less for an 802.11a/b/g product that joins the network"

wattage
Jan 9, 2007, 03:33 PM
I don't know about you guys but my MBP 100GB hard drive is quickly filling up with pics and music and some video projects. I think we are in the market for at least one LARGE external hard drive to network from (and apparently USB:mad: )! Maybe two for backup and safety reasons.

Any suggestions?

psychofreak
Jan 9, 2007, 03:34 PM
The description says lots of Macs have N inside. I know of NONE that really do. Do you? :confused:

And where's the freaking 1000 base T Gigabit Ethernet for the local network?!?! :mad:

Draft N is virtually N...C2D machines have that...

weldon
Jan 9, 2007, 03:35 PM
The description says lots of Macs have N inside. I know of NONE that really do. Do you? :confused:
The fine print says that the Core 2 Duo and the Mac Pro machines support 802.11n. Of course, that update hasn't been released yet...

stephenmckeague
Jan 9, 2007, 03:37 PM
Nobody else has pointed out that you still need an ugly 3rd party dsl modem stacked on top to get the internet on this thing. At this price I would expect them to include one since my even my ghey BT router does. :mad:

shamino
Jan 9, 2007, 03:40 PM
Of course, this is so vague as to be useless. What exactly does 'less' mean? G speed? Or somewhere between G and N? Doesn't say. It certainly DOES imply though that the speed of the network itself will be slower if a B or G device joins it ...
If any lower (b or g) device joins the network, your performance will degrade (to b or g). If you have an n-cabable mac you could always set up two networks, one b/g with a cheapo router and one n with the APExt.
I don't know the specifics of n, but when a b device joins a g network, the speed of g devices does drop. Not all the way down to b speeds, but you can no longer reach the full 54M speeds.

I suspect n will be similar. When a b or g device joins the network, n devices will no longer be able to reach 270M, but will top out at some slower speed, but probably faster than 54M.

shifuimam
Jan 9, 2007, 03:42 PM
It has component out. There is no way for a regular TV to tell that this analogue signal isn't supposed to be shown. It will work just fine.

Unless it only outputs a progressive scan signal. If you set a DVD to display progressive scan, a non-HDTV won't be able to see an image. If it has the option for interlaced display, you can use a non-HDTV. Otherwise, you're out of luck.

Reading the fine print it seems like if a non-"n" device joins the network you loose the advantages of "n". YIKES!!! So hooking up your Airport Express to stream music makes this a 'g' router.

I need to upgrade my current hub but I think I"m going to wait or look for a non-apple product.

That sounds fishy. Currently, if you have a B device on a G network, the G devices still work in G speeds; the B device is the only one limited. Unless the 802.11 wireless standard has changed (or Apple is actually diverting from standards in some way), the new APEXT should still provide an N connection to the AppleTV without forcing you to connect only N devices to the network.

flopticalcube
Jan 9, 2007, 03:43 PM
I don't know the specifics of n, but when a b device joins a g network, the speed of g devices does drop. Not all the way down to b speeds, but you can no longer reach the full 54M speeds.

I suspect n will be similar. When a b or g device joins the network, n devices will no longer be able to reach 270M, but will top out at some slower speed, but probably faster than 54M.

It tends to depend on what device is doing what. At any rate, no network will probably reach top speed anyhow, at least not for long.

EDIT: most draft-n devices should be able to run at different speeds simultaneously. Something older b/g routers were not really capable of.

shamino
Jan 9, 2007, 03:45 PM
Nobody else has pointed out that you still need an ugly 3rd party dsl modem stacked on top to get the internet on this thing. At this price I would expect them to include one since my even my ghey BT router does. :mad:
Not all broadband providers use the same standard. If they include a modem, then they need to include several, including ADSL, SDSL, HDSL, DOCSIS cable, and maybe a few others. So you're either looking an an expensive device with lots of modems you won't use, or multiple devices (and all the support nightmares that will come from customers buying the wrong one.)

It's one thing for a broadband provider to supply an integrated modem/router - they know what kind you need and they won't give you anything else. It's quite another thing to include a modem in a router that is not bundled with any service.

termite
Jan 9, 2007, 03:52 PM
Reading the fine print it seems like if a non-"n" device joins the network you loose the advantages of "n". YIKES!!! So hooking up your Airport Express to stream music makes this a 'g' router. Yes and no. You lose the >54Mb/s bandwidth. HOWEVER, the shiny MIMO hotness will still function and focus the signal on your 11g equipment so you might actually get 54. Plain jane 11g routers which lack MIMO will degrade to less than 54 with distance much faster.

As for people talking about the lack of Gigabit. I agree but I want to buy Apple Wireless because I need something that just fricken works and is secure. You can hook a generic cheap Gigabit switch in front of the Airport and get your speed back. Unlike Wireless, generic crap Gigabit switches DO just work. (And only three Ethernet ports? Argh.)

So I guess I have until February to think of an appropriate violent end to the $29 wireless Airlink router I've been using since November -- I saved money because I thought Apple would save me with 11n soon, but I needed an interim solution. Good lord but the Airlink bites.

Squonk
Jan 9, 2007, 03:52 PM
I don't know the specifics of n, but when a b device joins a g network, the speed of g devices does drop. Not all the way down to b speeds, but you can no longer reach the full 54M speeds.

I suspect n will be similar. When a b or g device joins the network, n devices will no longer be able to reach 270M, but will top out at some slower speed, but probably faster than 54M.

This sounds logical to me. As it is, I have one B device (iMac) and 3 G devices (AExp, AExt and PB) on my network. And the PB feels plenty fast with my Comcast cable, so I suspect that if I ditch the B with an N network, I'd be plenty happy. All I'd need is for the AppleTV to be fed fast enough to have smooth playback.

Excellent point about no one getting 270M anyway...

Buy a cheap b/g router and hook it up to the APExt. Two networks: one fast, one slow.

And this is a fine workaround if the B and or G slows down the N too much. What's another wireless network in the neighborhood anyway... Then again, I have plenty already.

Well, I'm not doing this anytime soon anyway...

Le Big Mac
Jan 9, 2007, 03:54 PM
If you need GigE, you can still attach one of the AirPort's ports to a GigE switch. You won't get faster than 100Mbps between the switch and the wireless network, but that may not translate to a real-world problem, since most users rarely saturate their available bandwidth to begin with.


Makes sense. Isolate the gigE part of the network on its own switch, and then have this for wireless. Don't need gigE for printer sharing or network storage or the WAN port . . . And if you need gigE, you probably have more than three nodes anyway.

Squonk
Jan 9, 2007, 03:58 PM
I'm wondering when they will update the AirportExpress to be B/G/N? Do you need N for airtunes/printing? Nope. But, you'd hate to downshift the network just to have airtunes on the net - assuming no other b/g devices... :)

dongmin
Jan 9, 2007, 03:59 PM
Just use a USB hub. It mentions that on the Apple website. It appears that this device uses the same footprint as the MacMini. So you can get an USB hub that is designed to fit under the MacMini, and put it nicely underneath this new base station, too. Of course, having a second USB port would make live a lot easier.Several of those hard drives also have a USB hub built in. So you could kill two birds with one stone.

I keep reading on MacRumors that if I'm getting an external hard drive I want to be sure to spend the extra 20 bucks to get one with Firewire capability. And now Apple releases a shiny new router without Firewire capability.

Somebody who knows something about this: I'm looking to set up a 500gig hard drive to be shared via Airport by my laptop, 2 eMacs, and iMac. Am I going to be unhappy with speed, reliability, or some other functionality if I buy this new Airport router and a USB 2.0 MyBook (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=232&language=en)?:confused:
Note that your network will only be as fast as the slowest hardware on your network, which will be G or B. So your disk use will be pretty limited. You'll have to upgrade all your Macs to N if you really wanna get decent transfer speed.

In any event, I'd hold off until I saw some benchmarks. I'm curious to see how well the USB hard drive will work.

ortuno2k
Jan 9, 2007, 04:03 PM
After reading the page, it looks really good. Where else can you get all those features at that price?
I'm on the market for a wireless base station/router, and I think this will be it. I'm planning on placing my order shortly after it's released on February.

mark88
Jan 9, 2007, 04:04 PM
The lack of Gigabit Ethernet is puzzling, but I guess you use the wireless for more-than-100Mbit bandwidth.


yea, considering all new macs ship with gig-E

rolson
Jan 9, 2007, 04:06 PM
You lose the n capablities of the g device. :rolleyes:

Which is pretty obvious, you cant utilize new technology to its fullest if one side doesn't have it.

Its the same thing as g and b guys. You can use B devices with a g router, just not to as great a speed or distance. You can use all g and b devices with n except the device wont be as fast or be able to go as far back. The router doesnt change. If you had a g laptop and a n laptop. The n would get more coverage and faster speeds, but it wouldnt get the same as g just because its present.

You can create TWO UNIQUE wireless networks: 1 n, 1 g ...

The different networks can still talk to each other, i.e. you can stream audio to airtunes devices over g, while streaming video over n.

Have all your old g computers connect to your g network and all your new comps/devices connect to your n network!

Problem solved. n at full speed and b at full speed.

The lack of gigabit on the new Airport Express is definitely puzzling. I too hope it is an error on the spec sheets.

richard4339
Jan 9, 2007, 04:12 PM
are you serious? how much is your electric bills? i have 2 computers, 2 printers, 1 router, 2 speaker set, one refrigerator, one central air conditioner, and other small things on 24/7 and my bill in the SUMMER is only like 30USD/month

You must be pretty lucky. I have less than you, and usually end up paying between $70 and $90

mikeyrogers
Jan 9, 2007, 04:12 PM
Do you all think Apple is considering an add on N card for us early MBP adopters? I know we can't take out the old card because Apple no longer allows us to upgrade (like we could on the PB) the wireless card, but they could still utlize the Express54 slot, no? Do you all think Core Duo guys are SOL when it comes to N or will someone (hopefully Apple) give us an option to upgrade?

Chef Medeski
Jan 9, 2007, 04:25 PM
That's not how I read the fine print.



It could be that just the lower speed device has a lower speed. But I read that as "if a lower spec device joins the network then the higher spec is disabled." Some old ethernet hubs used to work this way.

I would think if only the slower device had slower throughput then the phrasing would be more like "Speed and range will be less for an 802.11a/b/g product that joins the network"

Come on guys grammar. Spped and range will be less for a product. See... it will be less for a product that joins the networks. A PRODUCT. Not Speed and Range will be less on the whole network when an 802.11a/b/g product joins. And I do know this cause this is how n works if you would give it two seconds to look up. N and pre-N are standards meaning that linksys' N router works the same as Apples. Even though one may have added features, the basic wireless capablities are the same. And the abilites dont decrease just ebcause another device joins the network. So, not only has this been proven false on other networks. Proven false by GRAMMAR. But it doesnt make any sense. So back up your friends all you want, then they won't buy a fabulous product. Fine less of a line up when I buy

Rower_CPU
Jan 9, 2007, 04:26 PM
This is the Airport Extreme thread. Comments re: the iPhone and Apple TV that don't relate to connecting via the base station are off topic and will be removed.

Please see the iPhone and Apple TV threads for discussion of those announcements.

thejadedmonkey
Jan 9, 2007, 04:30 PM
I'm really disappointed in a lack of Firewire. that's the technology which Apple helped invent, it's the fastest.. and oh, wait. if there's not gig-E, who cares about speed. It's all about price now, and profit margins :mad:

Today, Apple Computer died, and with it went the RDF.

:'(

DickArmAndHarT
Jan 9, 2007, 04:39 PM
Perfect. I just ordered one. Wish it shipped before Feb, but it'll be worth it if it's Apple TV ready. All I'll need now is to order an external USB hard disk, hook it up to the airport extreme router, and I'm time-machine ready - on both my iMac and PowerBook.

Nice!

Now thats gnarlyy!

Protoplasm
Jan 9, 2007, 05:05 PM
Makes sense. Isolate the gigE part of the network on its own switch, and then have this for wireless. Don't need gigE for printer sharing or network storage or the WAN port . . . And if you need gigE, you probably have more than three nodes anyway.

Doesn't make sense to me.

With 802.11n you've got the potential to go beyond 100mbit speeds.

So, in your scenario, my 1gbit cabled mini cannot stream data as fast as can be received a wireless 802.11n device on the network.

Which strikes me as madness, given how they've just introduced the AppleTV product which is 802.11n draft-spec'd.

I'd love this if it were gigabit ethernet. As it is, I'll probably look to the Linksys (http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1162354643512&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper) when it's released.

flir67
Jan 9, 2007, 05:15 PM
doesn't this suggest this new airport could be a linksys in disguise so apple could use the iphone name.

apple always has included gig-e on all their new computers, I hope this doesn't comeback to bit them in the a**.

nothing of today has made sense on apples part.

dornoforpyros
Jan 9, 2007, 05:18 PM
meh it's still not a router/switch, thus making it nothing more than an overpriced wireless access point, and thus, I still don't care.

Although it'll be nice when my C2D MBP can do wireless N

Edit, oh wait, what's this, now i have to buy your under featured access point to even use my wireless card to it's full potential? lame apple, really f***in lame

Bregalad
Jan 9, 2007, 05:49 PM
I'm really disappointed in a lack of Firewire. that's the technology which Apple helped invent, it's the fastest.. and oh, wait. if there's not gig-E, who cares about speed. It's all about price now, and profit margins :mad:

Today, Apple Computer died, and with it went the RDF.

:'(

I second that emotion, but in order to provide a port that can be used for hard drives and printers it had to be USB. Apple seriously dropped the ball by demanding royalties on FireWire before the technology had even started to catch on. Like many here I'm puzzled why the Ethernet is limited to 10/100.

Currently the new base station carries a 20-30% price premium over other pre-n routers, which I'll gladly pay for Apple reliability, compatibility and the AirPort Disk feature. My home network is only 10/100 and I still use an original AirPort base station because it's fast enough for internet, but it will be really nice to have a high speed wireless network because it's currently faster for large file transfers to carry my laptop to the basement, copy files over FireWire or Ethernet, and carry it back upstairs than to get it directly off my network.

Danksi
Jan 9, 2007, 05:51 PM
....but it will be really nice to have a high speed wireless network because it's currently faster for large file transfers to carry my laptop to the basement, copy files over FireWire or Ethernet, and carry it back upstairs than to get it directly off my network.

hmmm... sneaker-net (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet) makes a come-back! :p

xenotaku
Jan 9, 2007, 06:11 PM
I am going to order one of the new base stations, but will my airport express still work as a range booster? Will it still be able to pick up the airport extreme signal and boost it for larger network range or will this not work anymore because the new one is N?


and why does Linksys claim their wireless N router gives off 4X the range where the new apple one is only 2X?

twinworld
Jan 9, 2007, 06:19 PM
Definitely like the hard drive sharing capability, but no firewire port???

i'm disappointed too. I'm looking for a server or a server/HD which doesn't cost more than 200-500$. I can't find any product with USB port and Firewire port, except LaCie server that costs about 1100$.

As I read in another post, Apple supports Firewire connectics and forgets it on his own product. It's sad.

twoodcc
Jan 9, 2007, 06:27 PM
no gigabit ethernet? eh...

but it's like 600 mbit.....without wires! (correct me if i'm wrong)

i'm kinda excited about it's release

weldon
Jan 9, 2007, 06:30 PM
Gig-E is really missing when you consider the NAS features of Airport Disk. I'd like to be able to use that on gigabit ethernet and not just 10/100 or wireless.

stephenmckeague
Jan 9, 2007, 07:03 PM
Was the power over ethernet feature removed?? I can't find it listed in the specs so I can only assume it was :(

ShermDog
Jan 9, 2007, 07:05 PM
I would have preferred multiple USB ports rather than multiple LAN ports. And gigabit ethernet would have made this perfect.

Too bad these new base stations aren't modular, or customizable (with punch-outs). There seems to be a lot of empty space on the back, and it would be nice to have as many LAN or USB ports as can fit (based on user preference)

aswitcher
Jan 9, 2007, 07:37 PM
I would have preferred multiple USB ports rather than multiple LAN ports. And gigabit ethernet would have made this perfect.


Yeah, I would have liked 2 of each.

And yeah, gigabit would have been nicer, especially since N can get over 100Mbps

mandoman
Jan 9, 2007, 07:49 PM
AppleTV doesn't have gig-E either...

Huracan
Jan 9, 2007, 07:51 PM
I am still hoping that Apple will later come up with a Gig-E version for some extra money. I think one of the rumors was about X2 / X4 Airport Express. Perhaps there is a X4 version coming up later. The way it is I wouldn't buy it. I have passed on buying any 100Mbit network storage, why would I shell $179 for a network storage solution that only provides 100Mbit connectivity to the network. It would seem like enough bandwidth, but I am pretty sure one will think differently when trying to move large video files across. Other than that, it doesn't make sense to me to have the wireless capacity so much bigger than the wire capacity.

Furthermore, pretty much all current Macs, or all of them (I haven't done the research) have Gigabit Ethernet ports, it would be nice to have a switch that can let them talk to each other at that speed. Before the age of video 100Mbit was good enough, even for most broadband Internet a 10Mbit would still be fine, barely, but with video 1Gigabit is about what's needed.

I am myself not in a rush, so I'll wait to see if Apple comes up with a Gig-E version of the base station, or if I get tired of waiting and decide to make the jump I'll consider Linksys or Netgear. However, before doing this I'd like to be sure I can update the software in my Mac to enable the draft-n capability and that this is compatible with Linksys/Netgear. I hope the enabler software becomes public after a while, it would be pretty lame for Apple to tie it completely to buying the base station. It could also be that the draft-n cards present in the latest Macs are not compatible with Linksys/Netgear, but I'd really doubt it.

Summing up. We'll have to wait a month or two for things to settle and know what can be done with our Macs when it comes to draft-n.

PS: If you don't plan to keep a separate g and n networks or do not have all the devices able to do wireless n then the performance will suffer when a wireless g device joins your network. This has been pointed in several other posts.

konquererkarlos
Jan 9, 2007, 08:17 PM
anyone thought about the possibility of a cheap mac mini out of one of these things? anyone know how much ram it has? all it would need (i think) is a usb hub that's connected to a mouse, keyboard and external dvd drive... so for like $350 you can get a complete system (minus of course the lcd tv you'd be using and the price of mac OS X itself)

Sun Baked
Jan 9, 2007, 08:30 PM
yea, considering all new macs ship with gig-E

Don't forget Apple should have starting going to 10 gig-E on the Pro desktop machines and servers by now. ;)

Of course Apple is a bit like Ford in some things, trump the new fangled looks and a couple new features -- and hope that the consumer doesn't notice that the "all new"/"refreshed" device/vehicle is falling behind the rest of the market.

flopticalcube
Jan 9, 2007, 08:48 PM
In reality, how much faster can USB 2.0 go than 802.11n? Theoretically 480Mbps, in practice more like 240Mbps max. This is close to the theoretical throughput of 802.11n. In practice, it still may be fairly close. Given this limit on the USB drive, it is small wonder Apple didn't include Gbit ether. And since they were not going to deliver that, no need for adding FW400/FW800 either, since the limiting factor would be 802.11n. If buying a drive for this new router, I would go for a dual interface USB/FW. Use the USB for casual wireless access and use the FW for backups.

JeffDM
Jan 9, 2007, 09:04 PM
Buy a cheap b/g router and hook it up to the APExt. Two networks: one fast, one slow.

That's not a total fix. I think "n" uses the entire 1-13 spectrum in one gulp. The use of a separate "g" network will still be seen as interference by the "n" devices.

but it's like 600 mbit.....without wires! (correct me if i'm wrong)

i'm kinda excited about it's release

600mbit, which I think is the theoretical max rate, cut that to less than half for practical speed, and it's also half-duplex. And then there's range and interference issues.

dllavaneras
Jan 9, 2007, 09:07 PM
600mbit, which I think is the theoretical max rate, cut that to less than half for practical speed, and it's also half-duplex. And then there's range and interference issues.

That's still quite fast ;)

failsafe1
Jan 9, 2007, 09:12 PM
Might sound nutty but I am more excited about this announcement than the other stuff. The phone is awesome by the way.

burgen
Jan 9, 2007, 09:21 PM
what drive format will the extreme bae station support for the external hard drive?
FAT16, FAT32, NTFS, or HFS?

dvkid
Jan 9, 2007, 09:22 PM
I would expect that the N Enabler download will also be shipping or available with Apple TV, as you will want N for that too. Besides, N is not even a final version yet so I think Apple has some time before it turns on N in all the products.

rdrr
Jan 9, 2007, 10:12 PM
Airport Express will still be fine for music streaming!

Except there isn't any mention of WDS support or Airport Express support at all. :confused:

Are they just dropping that?

solace
Jan 10, 2007, 12:59 AM
I would expect that the N Enabler download will also be shipping or available with Apple TV, as you will want N for that too. Besides, N is not even a final version yet so I think Apple has some time before it turns on N in all the products.

N won't be Final until sometime in 2008

and regardless if they put up the Enabler for the average user, not like you can't just "borrow" someone's APE or AppleTV Disc ;)

i've been waiting for them to enable N, cuz i have a D-Link DIR-655 (kicks the crap outta the APE imo) and wanna use N on my macbook C2D

iwod
Jan 10, 2007, 02:07 AM
1. Modem , Extra External HD.. Etc.. no one has mention the problem of having more and more power supply cable. Imagine a single place with your Modem, External HD, Airport extreme, Printer. Unless you are using a 2.5" HD otherwise that is 4 Power supply and cabling.

Any Macmini size External HD that also has a USB hub function? Or Western Digital My Book Pro Edition will do ( Dont know if it has USB hub function )

AFP / SMB? Which one does it uses? And what about Itunes Server that some expensive NAS has in them. Afterall i expect itunes server from the itunes maker :)

1G Net. I hope they will have a expensive version with 4 1G Port, 2 USB Slot etc. $249 For it sounds right :)

cyclotron451
Jan 10, 2007, 03:24 AM
That's not a total fix. I think "n" uses the entire 1-13 spectrum in one gulp. The use of a separate "g" network will still be seen as interference by the "n" devices.

the 802.11n base-station can use the 2.4GHz (actually 14 of which only 3 are non-overlapping) channels for compatibility with 802.11b/g , but it also has the wider 5GHz frequency band available (12 non-overlapping channels) , so it (probably) will be possible to have concurrent, overlaid, yet non-interfering, 802.11n and 802.11g networks!

In my case, I sold very recently my Apple Snow 802.11b basestation and 'b' cards and bought a bunch of cheap USR 802.11maxg+ base and extenders, I think the throughput is just enough for video streaming around the house. My eMac and keyLime iBook are now tethered to wired 100Mbps ethernet as the 802.11b airport cards dropped the overall data throughput to about 5megs a second, 802.11b is banned in my air-network space! I admit that plain 802.11g isn't that much better, but the USR maxg does a reasonable job.

The MIMO (multiple input-output) space diversity data multiplier antenna system of the new Airport Extreme will make it much better in a solid-built house than the previous generation, but my 100 year old house still needs about 3 devices to give good coverage.

The new basestations also come with enhanced data encryption, which is a very good reason to upgrade for people still using 802.11b systems. The old WiFi can be cracked in just a few minutes.

true777
Jan 10, 2007, 03:49 AM
No way to use Airport Extreme to connect using a 56k modem anymore?

I know in the US 56k modem connections are considered obsolete, but in many parts of the world 56k connections are still the only affordable way to connect to the internet.

I am currently in rural Austria where I use the built-in modem of my Airport Extreme base station to connect to the internet. From the description it doesn't sound like one could connect the Apple USB modem to one of the Airport's USB ports to connect to the internet that way, so there doesn't seem to be a way to use the Airport Extreme to connect via a 56k connection anymore -- or am I missing something?

teme
Jan 10, 2007, 03:58 AM
Does anyone know if old Airport Extreme or Airport Express could get an update to make shared USB-harddrive possible? That would be very useful feature for me.

aswitcher
Jan 10, 2007, 04:03 AM
Does anyone know if old Airport Extreme or Airport Express could get an update to make shared USB-harddrive possible? That would be very useful feature for me.

I really doubt it.

maesy
Jan 10, 2007, 06:10 AM
The question was asked earlier, but answers went a bit off-topic. I have a 1TB USB Disk that I use for storing my iTunes Library. Do you think I'll be able to plug it into the Airport Extreme and stream it to the AppleTV without turning a computer on...? In theory, this should work... AppleTV looks for wireless devices, then looks for iTunes Library files... right? This would be a big selling point for the AP!

johngordon
Jan 10, 2007, 07:42 AM
I was at the point where I was needing to get an external HD - and wireless access to it was something I'd wondered about - am I right in thinking from reading here that this wouldn't be possible with an older AEx, but now is?

Funds permitting, a new MBP, with wireless access to an external HD would solve all those storage problems, and effortlessly if you can just see and access the external HD contents wirelessly and immediately.

Add in time machine, and it should be a pretty good set up. Well, for someone like me who likes things simple!

xUKHCx
Jan 10, 2007, 07:47 AM
The question was asked earlier, but answers went a bit off-topic. I have a 1TB USB Disk that I use for storing my iTunes Library. Do you think I'll be able to plug it into the Airport Extreme and stream it to the AppleTV without turning a computer on...? In theory, this should work... AppleTV looks for wireless devices, then looks for iTunes Library files... right? This would be a big selling point for the AP!
I just watched the keynote and when Steve wanted to view stuff off Phils laptop he had to enter a passkey, so i do not think this will work.

xenotaku
Jan 10, 2007, 09:43 AM
I am going to order one of the new base stations, but will my airport express still work as a range booster? Will it still be able to pick up the airport extreme signal and boost it for larger network range or will this not work anymore because the new one is N?


and why does Linksys claim their wireless N router gives off 4X the range where the new apple one is only 2X?

:confused: :confused:

Bill Gates
Jan 10, 2007, 10:10 AM
I am going to order one of the new base stations, but will my airport express still work as a range booster? Will it still be able to pick up the airport extreme signal and boost it for larger network range or will this not work anymore because the new one is N?


and why does Linksys claim their wireless N router gives off 4X the range where the new apple one is only 2X?

:confused: :confused:
It's all marketing BS. From my experience, the new N-routers have less range than MIMO 802.11g routers. I happen to own the Linksys router, so I'm speaking from experience.

william1949
Jan 10, 2007, 10:21 AM
So as I understand it .... (please let me know if I have this wrong) .... if I still want to use my Airport Express (I use it for music) then I would loose the benifits of 802.11n (other than being able to attach my external drive to it. Bummer!

From http://www.apple.com/wireless/80211/
"Speed and range will be less if an 802.11a/b/g product joins the network."

xenotaku
Jan 10, 2007, 11:13 AM
It's all marketing BS. From my experience, the new N-routers have less range than MIMO 802.11g routers. I happen to own the Linksys router, so I'm speaking from experience.

how about the other part of my question? Can I still use my airtunes thingy to extend the network or it wont work anymore cause its N?

shamino
Jan 10, 2007, 11:19 AM
are you serious? how much is your electric bills? i have 2 computers, 2 printers, 1 router, 2 speaker set, one refrigerator, one central air conditioner, and other small things on 24/7 and my bill in the SUMMER is only like 30USD/monthYou must be pretty lucky. I have less than you, and usually end up paying between $70 and $90
This really depends on the size of your home, doesn't it? A studio in the middle of a large apartment building will have different power usage patterns, compared against a 4-bedroom 2-story single family home.
With 802.11n you've got the potential to go beyond 100mbit speeds.

So, in your scenario, my 1gbit cabled mini cannot stream data as fast as can be received a wireless 802.11n device on the network.
True, but aside from bandwidth tests, how often are you likely to actually move more than 100Mbps over your wireless segment? Maybe you will, but most people use their wireless connections for web surfing, so you end up limited to your ISP's speeds anyway. And streaming video isn't likely to come close to 100Mbps either.
meh it's still not a router/switch, thus making it nothing more than an overpriced wireless access point...
Since when? Apple's base stations have always been routers, and this one is no different.

Go look at the spec sheet (http://www.apple.com/airportextreme/specs.html). Note the WAN port and the presence of NAT. This is as much of a router as any other consumer-grade broadband router is.

AndyR
Jan 10, 2007, 11:39 AM
Can someone just explain to me what the point of the Airport Extreame is? Most ADSL wireless routers come with the ADSL modem built in so you just plug the cable straight from the filter in, but if I'm reading it right you need a seperate ADSL modem to plug into the Airport? Why bother with that when there are cheaper all in one solutions out there?

Please tell me I'm wrong as it does look smart!

aristobrat
Jan 10, 2007, 11:40 AM
how about the other part of my question? Can I still use my airtunes thingy to extend the network or it wont work anymore cause its N?
I don't know. I haven't seen anything about WDS in the new Airport Extreme, or specifically, if you can mix the 802.11 protocols with it. I did see where if you have a slower 802.11b/g device on the network, the entire network slows down.

Maybe the new Airport Extreme really does have 2x the coverage and you won't need your Airport Express to extend your network anymore? :D

Can someone just explain to me what the point of the Airport Extreame is? Most ADSL wireless routers come with the ADSL modem built in so you just plug the cable straight from the filter in, but if I'm reading it right you need a seperate ADSL modem to plug into the Airport? Why bother with that when there are cheaper all in one solutions out there?

Please tell me I'm wrong as it does look smart!
In the US, cable modems and DSL modems are almost always separate from the router.

combatcolin
Jan 10, 2007, 11:51 AM
hmmm... sneaker-net (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet) makes a come-back! :p

1st time i've heard that one.

w8ing4intelmacs
Jan 10, 2007, 12:16 PM
The lack of Gigabit Ethernet is puzzling

Admittedly, I haven't done all that much research, but I haven't found ANY wireless routers that have gigabit ethernet.

sionharris
Jan 10, 2007, 12:36 PM
no airtunes?
i can't afford and don't want apple tv...

oh well, at least airport express is now cheaper

quick question... does the aiport express base station have a modem or do you plug a modem into it?

combatcolin
Jan 10, 2007, 12:42 PM
Admittedly, I haven't done all that much research, but I haven't found ANY wireless routers that have gigabit ethernet.

Give it 6 months i suppose.

Data
Jan 10, 2007, 12:49 PM
I don't get it, all the macs are having them on board and then the router doesn't support it, that just does not make sence to me, hope there will be a opttion later for an AE that does have GigE, just like all the "new"mac's have.

Moof1904
Jan 10, 2007, 12:55 PM
Nope and that's a deal-breaker for me. It seems terribly silly that all currently shipping Macs have gigabit, yet they chose to leave it off the one thing that could tie them all together.

I agree 100%.

aristobrat
Jan 10, 2007, 12:59 PM
I don't get it, all the macs are having them on board and then the router doesn't support it, that just does not make sence to me, hope there will be a opttion later for an AE that does have GigE, just like all the "new"mac's have.
Wonder if Apple's thinking that there's not a huge demand to wire their wireless Macs into a high-speed access point?

richard4339
Jan 10, 2007, 01:03 PM
This really depends on the size of your home, doesn't it? A studio in the middle of a large apartment building will have different power usage patterns, compared against a 4-bedroom 2-story single family home.


That is true, but I am in a small apartment, though its not a large building. This is the cheapest power bill I've had from the various apartments I've had. I was pointing out moreso that the rates in his/her must be much cheaper.

Anyway, I doubt that there is much difference between leaving a Mac on 24/7 and leaving it off for a few hours at night, power wise.

stephenmckeague
Jan 10, 2007, 01:26 PM
In the US, cable modems and DSL modems are almost always separate from the router.

In the UK they're almost always included together in the same unit :(

combatcolin
Jan 10, 2007, 01:49 PM
There separate here too.

bousozoku
Jan 10, 2007, 01:56 PM
I don't get it, all the macs are having them on board and then the router doesn't support it, that just does not make sence to me, hope there will be a opttion later for an AE that does have GigE, just like all the "new"mac's have.

It seems odd that it doesn't have it but it probably amounts to the fact that very few peripherals (scanners and printers mainly) have anything more than 10/100 Base-T connectivity. Apple are expecting that almost all of the computers you have now already have wireless capabilities.

AndyR
Jan 10, 2007, 02:25 PM
In the US, cable modems and DSL modems are almost always separate from the router.

Dang! Over here they are 99% built in. Oh well, no airport express for me.

shamino
Jan 10, 2007, 02:31 PM
Can someone just explain to me what the point of the Airport Extreame is? Most ADSL wireless routers come with the ADSL modem built in so you just plug the cable straight from the filter in, but if I'm reading it right you need a seperate ADSL modem to plug into the Airport? Why bother with that when there are cheaper all in one solutions out there?

There are several different incompatible broadband standards: ADSL, SDSL, and DOCSIS (cable modem) are the most popular. And this doesn't count satellite, fiber, WiMAX and other kinds of broadband services. If Apple shipped a base station with a built-in modem, what kind? If they pick one, customers with other services will be incompatible. If they include them all, you're paying for several unused modems. If they ship many different models with many different kinds of modems, you create a tech-support problem - many customers will buy the wrong kind and will not know what they did wrong.
Different carriers run different signaling on their services. The modem may need to be configured for an ATM PVC, a frame relay DLCI, a PPPoE connection, or something proprietary.
Many broadband carriers ship their own modems, that are pre-configured for the service, and lock you out of the configuration. It may not be possible to attach a generic modem to your particular service.
Although many broadband carriers provide modems with WiFi access, the wireless and router capabilities are often inferior to what you can get if you buy your own. For instance, the modem/router Verizon bundled with their FiOS service in my neighborhood doesn't allow you to disable administration over the wireless segment and has no support for WPA2 encryption. I'd rather disable its wireless support and use my own router.
IMO, it makes the most sense for Apple to do what they did - ship it without a modem, and allow you to integrate it with the one you get from your broadband provider.

As for cheaper, look at the feature set. Can you find, for under $180, a device that bundles a DSL modem with 802.11 pre-n WiFi, a print server, and a file server? After searching a few retailer web sites, I only found one product (http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0246023) that comes close. It is an n-speed router with a built-in file server and GigE ports. It does not include print-server capability, and costs more than Apple's product. It doesn't include a modem either.

I was also looking for n-speed routers with GigE ports. I only found one product (http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0247107") other than the Linksys product mentioned above. It cost $150, and has no file sharing, no printer sharing, and no modem. (Actually, I couldn't find any 802.11n products with modems built-in.)

flopticalcube
Jan 10, 2007, 04:44 PM
[LIST]
After searching a few retailer web sites, I only found one product (http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0246023) that comes close. It is an n-speed router with a built-in file server and GigE ports. It does not include print-server capability, and costs more than Apple's product. It doesn't include a modem either.
You forgot to mention it is fugly too. It says its a G-ether switch but the specs say different. No 5GHz mode.



I was also looking for n-speed routers with GigE ports. I only found one product (http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0247107") other than the Linksys product mentioned above. It cost $150, and has no file sharing, no printer sharing, and no modem. (Actually, I couldn't find any 802.11n products with modems built-in.)
Less fugly, still no 5GHz mode.

sionharris
Jan 10, 2007, 05:02 PM
right, i have another question....

my modem is incompatible with intel macs, does that mean that it will also be incompatible with an intel mac communicating with an airport express base station? going wireless looks like it could be expensive.

shamino
Jan 10, 2007, 05:22 PM
You forgot to mention it is fugly too.
I suppose that's a matter of opinion. Doesn't matter to me. My routers sit in a closet anyway.
It says its a G-ether switch but the specs say different. No 5GHz mode.
The store's spec sheet is partly wrong. Linksys's product page (http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1162354643512&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper) says GigE.

shamino
Jan 10, 2007, 05:39 PM
my modem is incompatible with intel macs, does that mean that it will also be incompatible with an intel mac communicating with an airport express base station? going wireless looks like it could be expensive.
Are you sure it really is incompatible? Or is it the more likely scenario that your broadband provider doesn't want to support Macs and is saying it's incompatible?

If your modem connects to your computer (or LAN) via Ethernet, then it is almost certain that it is compatible. Either it will "just work", or will work with some simple configuration, or you'll have to set up PPPoE on the Mac.

If it is a USB-connected modem, then yeah, it probably requires a special device driver. See if you can replace it with one that attaches using Ethernet.

If you have an Ethernet-attached modem, using it with a router (any router, whether Apple's or otherwise) is simple. Attach its Ethernet port to your router's WAN port. Attach your Mac to one of the LAN ports. If you have too many computers, you can attach a hub to one of the LAN ports and attach computers to the hub.

Of course, your computers can also talk WiFi, but you may need a wired connection to set up the router. Many models require a wired connection in order to access the configuration pages until you explicitly configure them otherwise. And I recommend that you don't configure this - this way, if someone breaks your WiFi security and gets your admin password, they still won't be able to view/change your router settings.

Anyway, once the physical connections are made, most consumer routers are configured using a web interface. Point any web browser at the router's address (usually 192.168.1.1 if you don't change it), log in to the router, and configure it. Depending on your broadband provider, you may be able to do nothing, you may have to configure DHCP and/or IP addresses, set up MAC address cloning, or set up PPPoE. The specifics will depend on your service provider.

Once the router is set up, your computers just talk straight IP to the router and should not need any special configuration. The router will assign a private IP address (which will be mapped to your ISP-provided address). The modem and service provider will not know or care that you are on a Mac. The router terminates your end of the connection, which is all most ISPs ever care about.

mark88
Jan 10, 2007, 06:22 PM
Isn't this one of the worst things about any tech company? Look at all of us bummed about the OBVIOUS lack of gig-E, yet all the engineers who design and make the thing don't seem to think it's important despite every single new Mac shipping with Gig-E?

combatcolin
Jan 10, 2007, 06:23 PM
Ah well, 1st gen kit and all the rest of it.

By the end of the year they'll be a 1000-T version.

Bill Gates
Jan 10, 2007, 11:40 PM
Admittedly, I haven't done all that much research, but I haven't found ANY wireless routers that have gigabit ethernet.
Linksys WRT330N/WRT350N/WRVS4400N 802.11N/GigE.

aristobrat
Jan 11, 2007, 08:02 AM
Linksys WRT330N/WRT350N/WRVS4400N 802.11N/GigE.
Linksys is the only manufacturer with 802.11n and GigE? Oye. :(

Chef Medeski
Jan 11, 2007, 08:21 AM
You can create TWO UNIQUE wireless networks: 1 n, 1 g ...

The different networks can still talk to each other, i.e. you can stream audio to airtunes devices over g, while streaming video over n.

Have all your old g computers connect to your g network and all your new comps/devices connect to your n network!

Problem solved. n at full speed and b at full speed.

The lack of gigabit on the new Airport Express is definitely puzzling. I too hope it is an error on the spec sheets.
Wow all I can say is this thread has dropped into craziness. This doesnt even make sense. I guess everyone will see when it finally comes out.

Chef Medeski
Jan 11, 2007, 08:23 AM
Except there isn't any mention of WDS support or Airport Express support at all. :confused:

Are they just dropping that?

From the Apple site: 802.11n (http://www.apple.com/wireless/80211/)

"The new AirPort Extreme technology is fully compatible with 802.11a/b/g computers and other devices, such as AirPort Express."

:rolleyes:

Yes no mention.

shamino
Jan 11, 2007, 08:38 AM
Linksys is the only manufacturer with 802.11n and GigE? Oye. :(
Not the only one, but there aren't many others right now.

See what I posted in a previous message:


... I was also looking for n-speed routers with GigE ports. I only found one product (http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0247107") other than the Linksys product mentioned above. ...
This is D-Link's DIR-655.

So there are at least two brands. But not a lot right now.

aristobrat
Jan 11, 2007, 08:44 AM
So there are at least two brands. But not a lot right now.
Thanks! I missed that. :o :D

mousemd
Jan 11, 2007, 08:55 AM
the title says it all...what do you guys think? Is there even a third party option?

Squonk
Jan 11, 2007, 09:10 AM
the title says it all...what do you guys think? Is there even a third party option?

I have no idea right now. But I am sure that there will be an option out there.

Slightly off topic, in the MBP and MB, there is a slotted AE card or is it integrated with other components? I.e., is there the possibility of an internal N upgrade for these Rev A machines?

aristobrat
Jan 11, 2007, 09:41 AM
From looking at the logic boards over at ifixit.com, everything looks integrated.

Bill Gates
Jan 11, 2007, 10:19 AM
Linksys is the only manufacturer with 802.11n and GigE? Oye. :(
Why the Oye? I've been using the 100mbit variant (WRT300N) for months now problem-free. It even supports third-party firmware, as should the 1000mbit variants shortly, if not already.

Bill Gates
Jan 11, 2007, 10:22 AM
From looking at the logic boards over at ifixit.com, everything looks integrated.
Not true. The card is slotted. However, I doubt the Core Duo models have 3 antenna leads, so another may need to be added for the card to work as well as it can. 802.11N cards have 3 antenna connectors on them, whereas 802.11g cards typically have 2.

Bill Gates
Jan 11, 2007, 10:23 AM
the title says it all...what do you guys think? Is there even a third party option?
Depending on whether or not you need 802.11N with mobility, your best bet may be to get an 802.11N router that supports wireless bridging through a third-party firmware, and connect it to your MBP via ethernet.

andrewjnyc
Jan 11, 2007, 10:37 AM
I presently have a MacBook that accounts for 98% of my computer use and a Mac Mini (1st gen) that I'm now basically only using as a server for my iTunes library and printing. I'm very tempted to sell them both, buy a MacBook Pro and a new Airport Extreme and use that as my server, but I can't help being really concerned about the issue of Airport Express music streaming, which is essential to me. Obviously, we don't know yet if putting an Airport Express on the same network would really slow everything down to 802.11b/n/g speeds. Some folks here have talked about setting up separate "slow" and "fast" networks, which kind of confuses me a bit. If I did that, I'd presumably have to manually switch to the "slow" network every time I wanted to stream from iTunes. If/when I do that, how do I maintain an Internet connection if the new Airport Express (and the "fast" network) are attached to the cable modem? Since a lot of the streaming I do is online radio (KEXP rules, baby!), this would be vital to me--I wouldn never go with the slow/fast network scenario if it meant I could only listen to music off my HD and not off the net. Can anyone offer some insight into the situation?

flopticalcube
Jan 11, 2007, 10:52 AM
If all you had was a MBP C2D and an APExt, you would be 802.11n all the time and would stream your music from an external drive on the AP (I asume that is what you want to do). If all you are doing now is using the mini as a file/print server, then the APExt will do both and wirelessly and at over 100Mbps to the MBP.

bmglab
Jan 11, 2007, 11:20 AM
I realize enabler software (to activate N) will be shipping with the new APE. Will the enabler software be available for free dowhnload to those of us who already own other Draft 1.0N routers? Or will Apple force us to purchase APE to activate the chipset that is already in MBPs???

aristobrat
Jan 11, 2007, 12:06 PM
Why the Oye? I've been using the 100mbit variant (WRT300N) for months now problem-free. It even supports third-party firmware, as should the 1000mbit variants shortly, if not already.
I've apparently not had as good of luck as you with Linksys routers and reliability (as in not needing resets for random network slowdowns or the router locking up).

Not true. The card is slotted. However, I doubt the Core Duo models have 3 antenna leads, so another may need to be added for the card to work as well as it can. 802.11N cards have 3 antenna connectors on them, whereas 802.11g cards typically have 2.
I'm confused. Isn't the wifi chipset directly on the logic board?

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/85/images_large/44.jpg

I thought he was asking if the WiFi could be upgraded as easily as the older Apple laptops (by yanking it out of its slot and replacing it).

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/49/images_thumb/06.jpg

flopticalcube
Jan 11, 2007, 12:15 PM
It is slotted on the MacBook.

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/86/images_large/28.jpg

EDIT: According to ifixit (http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Mac/MacBook-Pro/Logic-Board-Page-16-Logic-Board), the MBP is also slotted.

shamino
Jan 11, 2007, 03:18 PM
the title says it all...what do you guys think? Is there even a third party option?
Given the fact that 802.11n is still a draft standard, and the standard is not completely stable (e.g. last year's pre-n devices are all 2.4GHz, with the newest ones supporting 5GHz), I'd wait for a while.

IMO, if you don't have a solid need for n's high speed right now, I'd recommend you wait for the standard to be finalized. According to the IEEE timeline (http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/802/11/Reports/802.11_Timelines.htm), final working group approval is expected for January 2008, standards board approval for March '08, and publication in April '08.

Yeah, 15 months is a long time to wait, but I'd rather stick with g speeds for another year and not have to deal with the possibility of the final spec being incompatible with today's draft-n devices.

andrewjnyc
Jan 11, 2007, 05:30 PM
If all you had was a MBP C2D and an APExt, you would be 802.11n all the time and would stream your music from an external drive on the AP (I asume that is what you want to do). If all you are doing now is using the mini as a file/print server, then the APExt will do both and wirelessly and at over 100Mbps to the MBP.

Sounds encouraging. My worry is that the APExpress will drag everything down if I keep it connected to the stereo (I also have a switch connected to its ethernet port, which connects my Xbox 360, PS3 and TiVo to the Internet). Presumably the wired devices attached to the switch won't "contaminate" the 802.11n bandwith on their own, but I'm antsy about whether via the ApExpress would knock me back to 802.11b/g speeds. I guess this is one of those things we won't really know about until the new APExtreme comes out. I hope it won't drag the network down, because only having one computer would greatly simplify things for me in terms of backups, knowing which files are stored where, etc. I'd stick with my MacBook in this scenario if it was a C2D unit, but alas it ain't.

shamino
Jan 11, 2007, 06:44 PM
Sounds encouraging. My worry is that the APExpress will drag everything down ... Presumably the wired devices attached to the switch won't "contaminate" the 802.11n bandwith on their own, but I'm antsy about whether via the ApExpress would knock me back to 802.11b/g speeds. I guess this is one of those things we won't really know about until the new APExtreme comes out.
As you say, we won't know until it ships and people can run tests, but here's my gut feeling:

Wired devices will have no impact on the wireless part of the network. It would be a really brain-dead design if it did.
If the new APExtreme runs 802.11n on the 2.4GHz band (the one used by b/g), then the presence of b/g devices will end up slowing down the n devices. Probably not all the way down to b/g speeds, but top speed won't be possible.
If it runs 802.11n on the 5GHz band (which is not shared by b/g), then I would expect b/g devices to not impact n devices. 802.11a devices (which run on a few different bands from 5.15GHz to 5.875GHz) might have an impact, but you may not care, because 802.11a is not nearly as popular as b/g.

flopticalcube
Jan 11, 2007, 08:02 PM
A
If it runs 802.11n on the 5GHz band (which is not shared by b/g), then I would expect b/g devices to not impact n devices. 802.11a devices (which run on a few different bands from 5.15GHz to 5.875GHz) might have an impact, but you may not care, because 802.11a is not nearly as popular as b/g.
[/LIST]

This is the acid test. We shall see in February.

Caris
Jan 11, 2007, 08:56 PM
Stupid question but.

Is this just a Apple router? like will it work with my borthers PC and my Wii ok?

flopticalcube
Jan 11, 2007, 09:02 PM
See no reason why not.

Chef Medeski
Jan 12, 2007, 12:42 AM
I presently have a MacBook that accounts for 98% of my computer use and a Mac Mini (1st gen) that I'm now basically only using as a server for my iTunes library and printing. I'm very tempted to sell them both, buy a MacBook Pro and a new Airport Extreme and use that as my server, but I can't help being really concerned about the issue of Airport Express music streaming, which is essential to me. Obviously, we don't know yet if putting an Airport Express on the same network would really slow everything down to 802.11b/n/g speeds. Some folks here have talked about setting up separate "slow" and "fast" networks, which kind of confuses me a bit. If I did that, I'd presumably have to manually switch to the "slow" network every time I wanted to stream from iTunes. If/when I do that, how do I maintain an Internet connection if the new Airport Express (and the "fast" network) are attached to the cable modem? Since a lot of the streaming I do is online radio (KEXP rules, baby!), this would be vital to me--I wouldn never go with the slow/fast network scenario if it meant I could only listen to music off my HD and not off the net. Can anyone offer some insight into the situation?
Aiport Extreme, Airport Express, and Macbook Pro will all work fine together. The Airport Express will run at G speeds which isnt a real concern seeing that streaming audio never really exceeds G speeds. And the rest will be N speeds/range. No need for two systems. Very simple. Dont wry about seperate networks, it wont help it probably just make it worst since multiple networks can interfere and since N router do extend the range on G components even if not to the full extend N components would.

jkrans
Jan 13, 2007, 03:41 PM
I'm a bit new to this wireless stuff, so I'm wondering if someone could shed some light on this for me? I'd ultimately like to get the AppleTV to use with iTunes on my Mac Mini using 802.11n. If I bypass the 802.11g built into my Mini and instead connect the Mini to of the 10/100 ports on the Airport Extreme, my understanding is that I won't achieve the highest possible speed of 802.11n, assuming 802.11n can achieve speeds faster than 100mbps.

Here's a hypothetical scenario that I'm trying to figure out assuming Apple also offered a gigabit version of the new Airport Extreme. Would there be any difference in communication speed between the Mini and AppleTV with these setups?

Thanks,
Jeff


Mac Mini (gigabit) -> connected to Airport Extreme (10/100) -> connected wirelessly to AppleTV

vs.

Mac Mini (gigabit) -> connected to Airport Extreme (gigabit) -> connected wirelessly to AppleTV

combatcolin
Jan 13, 2007, 04:13 PM
The only time you will ever notice the advantage of "N" is when you sync your iTV to your mac for the 1st time, shed load of data being moved when you fill an empty iTV or iPod.

"G" is already many times faster than the fastest Internet access, unless you are a Bond villain and have a secret hollowed out Volcano.

But still, for the cost it should really have 1000BT.

maconservative
Jan 13, 2007, 05:37 PM
Perfect. I just ordered one. Wish it shipped before Feb, but it'll be worth it if it's Apple TV ready. All I'll need now is to order an external USB hard disk, hook it up to the airport extreme router, and I'm time-machine ready - on both my iMac and PowerBook.

Nice!


What was the ship date they told you on the website after you ordered it?

Mac'Mo
Jan 13, 2007, 06:01 PM
i'd look into it but 180 is expensive for a router. also does anyone know if mb's have built in capabilities to receive "n" signals?

aswitcher
Jan 13, 2007, 06:02 PM
The only time you will ever notice the advantage of "N" is when you sync your iTV to your mac for the 1st time, shed load of data being moved when you fill an empty iTV or iPod.

"G" is already many times faster than the fastest Internet access, unless you are a Bond villain and have a secret hollowed out Volcano.

But still, for the cost it should really have 1000BT.

Actually I think N is Apples key to making Time Machine work for MacBook users. Nice seemless synching, and if you attach a USB2 HDD to the AE, that will go faster than N so transfer speeds will be pretty good.

aristobrat
Jan 13, 2007, 06:05 PM
i'd look into it but 180 is expensive for a router. also does anyone know if mb's have built in capabilities to receive "n" signals?
Yeah, at least they dropped the price $20 and added a fairly major feature (sharing of external drives).

I thought all of the Core 2 Duo machines (except the 17" 1.83ghz iMac) have 802.11n.

aristobrat
Jan 13, 2007, 06:06 PM
Actually I think N is Apples key to making Time Machine work for MacBook users. Nice seemless synching, and if you attach a USB2 HDD to the AE, that will go faster than N so transfer speeds will be pretty good.
Oh, good catch. I hadn't even thought about the possibility of using Time Machine with the new AE!

weldon
Jan 13, 2007, 08:09 PM
More and more, I'm thinking that $180 is reasonable for this box - as long as the AirDisk* feature works well. Of course, Airdisk is what makes me wish they had put Gig-E on there too. It would make sense for a NAS.

I'm not going to be the first to buy one, but if good reports come on the ease of use with the NAS features, I'll jump in.

*I think AirDisk sounds cooler than Airport Disk.

flopticalcube
Jan 13, 2007, 08:20 PM
I still think USB2.0 is too slow for a gigE network. Just about right for a wireless n though.

weldon
Jan 13, 2007, 09:24 PM
I still think USB2.0 is too slow for a gigE network. Just about right for a wireless n though.
USB2 is faster than both 802.11n and 100baseT. You could potentially fill your 100baseT connection with the NAS functions and not leave any bandwidth left for wireless clients to communicate with the rest of the wired network.

I'm guessing that the three RJ-45 ports are not switched and the Airport Extreme has a limited backplane to go with the 100baseT limit. If you're using it as the hub of your wired network, it would slow everything down. Given Apple's emphasis on ease-of-use, it's silly that the only network hub that they sell will slow down all of their computers when used with it.

Seriously, make the thing $199 and put Gig-E in it already.

timswim78
Jan 13, 2007, 09:34 PM
USB2 is faster than both 802.11n and 100baseT. You could potentially fill your 100baseT connection with the NAS functions and not leave any bandwidth left for wireless clients to communicate with the rest of the wired network.

I'm guessing that the three RJ-45 ports are not switched and the Airport Extreme has a limited backplane to go with the 100baseT limit. If you're using it as the hub of your wired network, it would slow everything down. Given Apple's emphasis on ease-of-use, it's silly that the only network hub that they sell will slow down all of their computers when used with it.

Seriously, make the thing $199 and put Gig-E in it already.

Agreed. It is quite unusual for Apple not to have the "up and coming" technologies in their products.

I'd prefer to see Gigibait ethernet and a firewire port.

flopticalcube
Jan 13, 2007, 09:42 PM
USB2 is faster than both 802.11n and 100baseT.

USB2.0 theoretically maxs out at 480Mbps. Practically it maxs out at 240Mbps, 802.11n maxs out at 160Mbps (at least most of the pre-n's do). Same ballpark.

aswitcher
Jan 13, 2007, 09:47 PM
If you need a GB ethernet switch, they are easily come by, and in port numbers to suit your needs.

I think Apple are aiming at having all multimedia and data transfers done through wireless N not ethernet. The ethernet ports are there I think to allow you to easily get everything access to your broadband, to attach ethernet storage, and other enabled devices - and other pre-N Macs - to your N network. I also wonder what other ethernet devices they might have lined up. I personally would have liked to see 2 USB ports. I dont think they intend this WAP to be more than that.

weldon
Jan 13, 2007, 10:03 PM
USB2.0 theoretically maxs out at 480Mbps. Practically it maxs out at 240Mbps, 802.11n maxs out at 160Mbps (at least most of the pre-n's do). Same ballpark.
But see, that's my point. You need a fast backplane in the Airport Extreme and more bandwidth on the wired side so that 802.11n or the USB AirDisk can't flood the backplane and the wired side and prevent *other* network activity from happening. If you plan on using the AirDisk feature extensively, you wouldn't want to put all of wired computers into the 3 provided RJ-45 jacks.
If you need a GB ethernet switch, they are easily come by, and in port numbers to suit your needs.
Right, but Apple doesn't sell a switch. It's silly that their premier networking product would cause all your wired Macs to step down in speed if you connect them to the Airport Extreme.

If I do get one of these things (and I might if the NAS feature works well) then I will put it behind a Gig-E switch with a fast backplane and good support for jumbo frames. But then, I've been a network engineer. I don't expect most people to figure this out on their own. When Apple's claim to fame is "it just works" they should make products that don't hobble the capabilities of the Macs that use them.

aswitcher
Jan 13, 2007, 10:06 PM
If I do get one of these things (and I might if the NAS feature works well) then I will put it behind a Gig-E switch with a fast backplane and good support for jumbo frames. But then, I've been a network engineer. I don't expect most people to figure this out on their own. When Apple's claim to fame is "it just works" they should make products that don't hobble the capabilities of the Macs that use them.

Sure, I too would prefer a GB switch inthe AE but I would only likley use one of them ever, no matter how many AEs and AppleTVs I might have, most of my network would be wireless.

But since you know something about switches, could you recommend a 4/6 port Gig-E switch?

bgarlock
Jan 14, 2007, 10:05 AM
I would like for Apple to make both a consumer, and Pro version of the Airport Extreme. Wouldn't a Pro version with gig-E, FW800, FW800, and E-SATA port for HD connectivity be nice? I would pay extra for that. Especially with Time Machine coming, have a NAS device attached at these speeds would be nice.

I think a lot of shops would pay extra for the faster connectivity, and features. Apple has other Pro models, why not in the WiFi range? Hopefully they are working on something like this.

Do any other vendors offer anything like this? Maybe I am just dreaming :)

After you have transferred data over gig-E, anything less can be painful. Especially if you are moving some serious data. Also, with the probability of HD content on iTunes, and the need to back it up, and stream it, these speeds are going to be necessary for any kind of good experience.

Any one else like to chime in on this idea?

shamino
Jan 14, 2007, 01:21 PM
But since you know something about switches, could you recommend a 4/6 port Gig-E switch?
I'd recommend you just walk into your local computer superstore and look around. Most 8-port GigE switches are less than $100 these days, including models from the major vendors.
I would like for Apple to make both a consumer, and Pro version of the Airport Extreme. Wouldn't a Pro version with gig-E, FW800, FW800, and E-SATA port for HD connectivity be nice? I would pay extra for that. Especially with Time Machine coming, have a NAS device attached at these speeds would be nice.

I think a lot of shops would pay extra for the faster connectivity, and features. Apple has other Pro models, why not in the WiFi range? Hopefully they are working on something like this.
Maybe, but how much more would people spend? If it ends up costing more than a standalone NAS and a standalone WiFi router, would you still buy it? I wouldn't.
Do any other vendors offer anything like this?
Not right now. I did some searching (see above in this thread). Aside from Apple's product, I was only able to find one other vendor of n-class router with file sharing - Linksys. Their product has GigE, but does not support printer sharing. No FW/SATA ports. And it costs more than Apple's product.
After you have transferred data over gig-E, anything less can be painful. Especially if you are moving some serious data. Also, with the probability of HD content on iTunes, and the need to back it up, and stream it, these speeds are going to be necessary for any kind of good experience.
You and I may have a different definition of "serious data", but, IMO, anyone running a high performance network shouldn't be using consumer-grade devices of any kind. Buy yourself a proper GigE router and use a separate wireless base station. All-in-one devices designed for home users to access their cable modems work great for their intended purpose, but they are all woefully inadequate for running a high-performance network.

Don't expect $5000 worth of performance from a $100 (or $180) device. It just won't happen.

tschmidty6
Jan 22, 2007, 02:16 PM
Hey,

What details do we know about the new airport extreme and how it will work with older machines? I have a iBook G4 right now and am looking to hook up a 320gig MyBook by Western Digital to it (which I already own). I also will be getting a MacBook in June. If I purchase the basestation now, will it work flawlessly with my iBook? Will the 802.11n capablilities get in the way? I'd apprecaite any tips / knowledge you might have. Thanks!

Travis