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ankushpatel
Jan 10, 2007, 01:36 PM
i have a 4 year old sony and it has composite and svideo imput on the back the tv is not that old. On apple website, the way they say it on the website it says that itv is kind of only works with widescreen tvs is this true?

are all my hopes for itv gone?


Ankush



brbubba
Jan 10, 2007, 01:59 PM
i have a 4 year old sony and it has composite and svideo imput on the back the tv is not that old. On apple website, the way they say it on the website it says that itv is kind of only works with widescreen tvs is this true?

are all my hopes for itv gone?


Ankush

If you don't have a component or HDMI hookup in the back then yes, you're hopes are gone.

ankushpatel
Jan 10, 2007, 05:51 PM
my tv does have component (those are the white,red,yellow cables right imput>) ye i have those but i just dont have a widescreen or hd tv

will it still work?

on the apple site they mention all about hd and widescreen tvs they dont mention anything about people without them

i have the component on the back of my sony

CubeHacker
Jan 10, 2007, 06:49 PM
my tv does have component (those are the white,red,yellow cables right imput>) ye i have those but i just dont have a widescreen or hd tv

will it still work?

on the apple site they mention all about hd and widescreen tvs they dont mention anything about people without them

i have the component on the back of my sony

No, the red, white and yellow is composite connections, not component which are red, green, and blue. If you don't have component, you won't be able to use the AppleTV

ankushpatel
Jan 10, 2007, 07:03 PM
i have component connection (1) at the back of the tv it goes up -down green blue red. is it right?

it doesnt matter if i dont have a widescreen or hd tv does it?
will the quality be the same?


Thanks again

Ankush Patel

UrsaMajor
Jan 10, 2007, 07:27 PM
i have component connection (1) at the back of the tv it goes up -down green blue red. is it right?

it doesnt matter if i dont have a widescreen or hd tv does it?
will the quality be the same?


Thanks again

Ankush Patel


No the quality won't be the same as 720p or 1080i. Best you'll get is 480p (dvd quality). It won't look BAD just not great. Actually, Dvds look BETTER on a CRT tv than on a HD set, where you get all the artifacts. I'd imagine most content will be DVD quality or less so you should be fine.

A lot of 720p 1080i Tvs are dropping rapidly in price, most likely for the 1080p sets coming this year. You can find some deals if you're in the market for a set.

ankushpatel
Jan 10, 2007, 07:30 PM
if i buy this itv it will work on my slightly old sony(non widescreen or hd) that has component video connection on the back? the quality will be not best but good enough.


is this correct then i can go ahead and pre order it?

UrsaMajor
Jan 10, 2007, 07:36 PM
if i buy this itv it will work on my slightly old sony(non widescreen or hd) that has component video connection on the back? the quality will be not best but good enough.


is this correct then i can go ahead and pre order it?

I would ASSUME it would simply letterbox the image (bar on top and bottom) on a 4:3 set. However, their site on the specs have limited information and lists a small number of "compatible" tvs. The problem here is their information is LIMITED.

I would say yes, it will work because it if didn't, they'd seriously be limiting their product reach because there are other customers like you with 4:3 sets.

ankushpatel
Jan 10, 2007, 08:07 PM
thanks for the reply, ye so alot of people are saying different things on different forums.


if anyone has a correct answer or any opinions plz let me know

thanks ankush

brbubba
Jan 10, 2007, 10:30 PM
No the quality won't be the same as 720p or 1080i. Best you'll get is 480p (dvd quality). It won't look BAD just not great. Actually, Dvds look BETTER on a CRT tv than on a HD set, where you get all the artifacts. I'd imagine most content will be DVD quality or less so you should be fine.

Thats news to me, some of my DVDs do have artifacts, but others are purely flawless on my LCD widescreen.

To OP, it has to work. Just like a DVD player will output a picture at a certain resolution, e.g., a widescreen movie, and your TV copes by displaying black bars on the top and bottom. It should do the same for the AppleTV. However, that brings up the question, what happens when you try to watch a 4:3 video feed? On your DVD player you can adjust the output so that it knows its displaying to a 4:3 TV, but I am guessing the AppleTV doesn't so you could have a 4:3 video feed playing back in a minuscule size.

Either way, I would wait until the reviews come rolling in, as I am sure there will be plenty of people trying this.

Zwhaler
Jan 10, 2007, 10:56 PM
Perhaps when he said it was built for Widescreens, it will only stream the content in a 16:9 aspect ratio, and that if you run it on a fullscreen tv (4:3) it will still play but will have the black bars on the top and bottom of the screen. But he did seem to emphasize that it only worked on widescreen tvs...

mnahawi
Jan 11, 2007, 01:46 AM
if i play a dvd my laptop will i be able to stream it to my tv ?? that is the most important factor in my opinion .. if its only from itunes that would be very dissapointing !!

markie
Jan 11, 2007, 02:27 AM
The specs are very clear, very clear. I don't know why people are saying they're limited. And I quote:

"Enhanced-definition or high-definition widescreen TVs capable of 1080i 60/50Hz, 720p 60/50Hz, 576p 50Hz (PAL format), or 480p 60Hz"

The widescreen bit is safely ignorable - it just means it would be distorted (anamorphic widescreen [all it sounds like this can produce] is distorted not letterboxed on a normal TV - set your DVD player to widescreen TV mode to see). But it would work and many TVs can be set to letterbox the content internally.

The bigger issue - 1080i, 720p, 576p, or 480p. No 480i. 480i is what most of your older TVs support. Not 480p (aka progressive scan or enhanced definition TV). There is a HUGE difference. 480i is 60 fields per second each containing 240 lines with two different sets of lines. 480p is 60 fields of the same 480 lines a second. They are not even remotely compatible.

As long as the Apple TV only outputs 480p and higher it doesn't matter if your TV has the same physical connectors.

And the anamorphic widescreen bit is also a major annoyance (though it would only result in distortion not not working).

Here's the good news - the anamorphic widescreen only bit is definitely a software limitation. I'm about 99% willing to bet (because I've never heard of a chipset that could output 480p but not 480i) that the resolution thing is a software limitation as well. Almost certainly limited so that people were matching the Apple TV with what Apple considered appropriate TV sets for it.

Here's the bit of hope - maybe Apple will see the error of their ways, and then it would just be a simple software upgrade to make it compatible with all the lower-resolution TVs on the market.

mnahawi
Jan 11, 2007, 02:37 AM
markie ..
how about my question .. if i simply slip in a dvd into may laptop can i stream it to itv or can i only run movies from itunes ??

jmsait19
Jan 11, 2007, 03:00 AM
markie ..
how about my question .. if i simply slip in a dvd into may laptop can i stream it to itv or can i only run movies from itunes ??

i don't have much of a basis for this but i think that goes against the reasoning for the whole device...

you have a DVD player for that... and if you don't then a fairly decent one can be picked up for $40... The idea is to have your content accessible without having to dig through a physical library, or worrying about scratched/lost discs...

just a hunch. but if that's all you want to do then you can save a lot of cash... unless of course you know something that I don't

mnahawi
Jan 11, 2007, 03:05 AM
true .. but it would be alot easier if u simply have all ur multimedia such as music pics and songs all playable through ur sound system and tv screen !! that also includes regular downloads of movie clips u make !

markfc
Jan 11, 2007, 03:38 AM
I have a newish 32" Toshiba 100Hz CRT TV with Component inputs.

Do you think this will work with apple tv?

brbubba
Jan 11, 2007, 07:46 AM
markie ..
how about my question .. if i simply slip in a dvd into may laptop can i stream it to itv or can i only run movies from itunes ??

I remember seeing somewhere, in another thread or online, that the answer to that was a definitive no. As in, if iTunes can't play it then you can't use aTV for it.

ankushpatel
Jan 11, 2007, 02:51 PM
Product Description
Let your home entertainment begin with Sony?s KV-27FS100 27-inch FD Trinitron WEGA TV. Watch our features in action and reap the benefits. Featuring a 3-Line Digital Comb Filter, Velocity Modulation? Scanning (Off/Low/High) Control, 16:9 Enhanced Mode (V-Compression), a Component Video(Y,PB,PR)Input, Dynamic Focus? Circuitry, Dynamic Picture? Processor Circuitry, and Magnetic Quadra Pole, this television brings home brilliant pictures. Additional features include our New Side Speaker Design (10 Watts), Audio Outpeakers On/Off, Auto Channel Program, a Basic Menu Option, Caption Vision (CC), Speed Surf? Channel Selection, a Clock/Timer (Two Event), Energy StarŪ Compliance, Favorite Channel, On Screen Display - (English, Spanish, French), and Program Palette Presets. The KV-27FS100 -- television so true it could only be Sony.

Features
Multi-channel Preview Without PIP
Speakers Stereo
2 x 10 Watt

Details
Image Aspect Ratio 16:9 Enhanced, 4:3
Front Input Connectors Composite x 1, S-Video x 1
Rear Input Connectors Component x 1, Composite x 2, RF x 1, S-Video x 1
Rear Output Connectors Audio (RCA) x 1
Digital Standard Analog TV
Dimensions (W X D X H) 30.25 in. x 19.63 in. x 23.25 in.
Weight 99.19 lb.
MPN kv-27fs100


will it work? above are the features

metalray@mac.co
Jan 11, 2007, 05:21 PM
I have heard that Free-ware plugins are available on the net to rip dvd's into the itunes format. But I have not concerned myself with that to much.

markie
Jan 11, 2007, 05:28 PM
"will it work? above are the features"

Nope, it's not progressive scan. Sorry. 480p (progressive scan) is mandatory. The widescreen mode means that if it did work the picture wouldn't be distorted. But it won't work unless you failed to mention that it has progressive scan.

ankushpatel
Jan 11, 2007, 06:12 PM
so let me just conclude this question

my tv has 480i so the itv will not work with it for now until maybe apple sorts out the issue.


Ankush Patel

markie
Jan 11, 2007, 06:14 PM
Correct, it won't per the specs send 480i. But I doubt it's an "issue." My guess is it's an intentional limitation of the device. They don't want people using these on 4:3 TVs or low-res 480i TVs.

axboi87
Jan 12, 2007, 07:50 PM
I seem to have found a component to composite/svideo adapter for $29 by doing a google search. What I'm curious about is will this enable me to hook an apple tv to my old ass crt tv, and will the picture simply be letterboxed? I've read through most of the thread and alot of people seem to think it would just letterbox if you already have the component inputs but what about with an adapter?

markie
Jan 12, 2007, 08:12 PM
"I seem to have found a component to composite/svideo adapter for $29 by doing a google search. What I'm curious about is will this enable me to hook an apple tv to my old ass crt tv, and will the picture simply be letterboxed? I've read through most of the thread and alot of people seem to think it would just letterbox if you already have the component inputs but what about with an adapter?"

Most people on this forum, quite frankly, are wrong.

1. Widescren sources wouldn't naturally be letterboxed - they'd be distorted - stretched vertically. The letterboxing is done in the source usually (notice the difference between Letterboxed 4:3 and Widescreen modes on your DVD player). SOME, but very few TVs can do letterboxing internally.

2. Even more significantly - sorry, it won't work anyway. Even converting the cable type doesn't change the resolution. You're made problem is the Apple TV's lowest resolution is 480p and your TV's highest resolution is 480i (which is actually half the resolution - with different lines displayed in alternating (interlaced) frames).

Of course, these are both software design features in almost all liklihood. They're probably (almost certainly) not hardware limitations. I.E. There's no real reason the Apple TV couldn't put out 4:3 480i if they wanted it to. They just don't want it used on anything but progressive scan or better widescreen TVs.

brbubba
Jan 12, 2007, 09:49 PM
1. Widescren sources wouldn't naturally be letterboxed - they'd be distorted - stretched vertically. The letterboxing is done in the source usually (notice the difference between Letterboxed 4:3 and Widescreen modes on your DVD player). SOME, but very few TVs can do letterboxing internally.


Yeah, I forgot about those few times I set my DVD player to widescreen on my old 4:3 television. It does stretch it vertically to fill the entire screen and it does look distorted.

2. Even more significantly - sorry, it won't work anyway. Even converting the cable type doesn't change the resolution. You're made problem is the Apple TV's lowest resolution is 480p and your TV's highest resolution is 480i (which is actually half the resolution - with different lines displayed in alternating (interlaced) frames).

480p and 480i are the exact same resolution. The only difference is that 480p renders 480 lines of the frame 60 times a second while 480i only renders every other line of each frame 60 times a second. There is obviously enough data there for a 480i set to render it properly, but the issue is will it simply discard every other line or will it instead just display nothing.

There's a simple way to solve this. Anyone out there have an HD cable box hooked up via component to a 4:3 TV? Most of those cable boxes have a setup mode that lets you set the resolution. Mine has 480i/480p/720i/720p/1080i/1080p and will let you run through each resolution to see if it displays properly. Its designed so that you won't suddenly flip to a channel that is passing an unsupported resolution, instead the cable box will convert it to some other supported resolution. Anyway all someone has to do is set it to 480p and see if you get an picture. Its probably a long shot, but hopefully this will put this one to rest once and for all.

EDIT: or even easier, anyone with a progressive scan DVD player hooked up to a 4:3 480i TV via component, does the TV display a picture when progressive output is enabled?

ankushpatel
Jan 13, 2007, 01:21 PM
hey i have a bose lifestyle all in one dvd player with cd/mp3/video.

so i put in a dvd into it and went to settings and changed video on a dvd to 16:9 widescreen.

when i played the dvd the video was not changed it just took up the whole screen?

does this show anything or mean anything towards me buying the itv?

markie
Jan 13, 2007, 01:25 PM
"480p and 480i are the exact same resolution. The only difference is that 480p renders 480 lines of the frame 60 times a second while 480i only renders every other line of each frame 60 times a second. There is obviously enough data there for a 480i set to render it properly, but the issue is will it simply discard every other line or will it instead just display nothing."

No. It's NOT the same resolution. 480i is really 240 lines. I.e. 720x240 vs 720x480.

And no, the TV won't just discard lines (and it would look horrid if it did without proper scaling) - it'll either show nothing or be all scrambled if it doesn't run progressive scan.

ankushpatel
Jan 13, 2007, 01:29 PM
i dont understand what u are saying

so will itv work on my tv?

markie
Jan 13, 2007, 03:03 PM
Hook up a progressive scan DVD player to it. Hook it up using component connections (no component - no luck!) and set the output on the DVD player to progressive scan and 16:9 widescreen.

If it works, then the Apple TV will work. Make sure you're using component outs (red green and blue) - your DVD player's composite and S-Video are always interlaced.

ankushpatel
Jan 13, 2007, 04:03 PM
check this website out http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/1/9/6543

im not sure of the sources of this website
but on it i see this

Jacqui: Is this HDTV only? Does it just scale down if hooked up to a regular TV?
Apple Employee: Yes, HDTV only. Yes, it just scales down on a regular TV.

check it out

brbubba
Jan 13, 2007, 04:56 PM
"480p and 480i are the exact same resolution. The only difference is that 480p renders 480 lines of the frame 60 times a second while 480i only renders every other line of each frame 60 times a second. There is obviously enough data there for a 480i set to render it properly, but the issue is will it simply discard every other line or will it instead just display nothing."

No. It's NOT the same resolution. 480i is really 240 lines. I.e. 720x240 vs 720x480.

And no, the TV won't just discard lines (and it would look horrid if it did without proper scaling) - it'll either show nothing or be all scrambled if it doesn't run progressive scan.

Yes it is. Both 480i and 480p are 720x480, with 480 lines of vertical resolution. Whether or not all 480 lines are filled at the time with 480i is inconsequential, it just takes 2 frames for it to completely fill in the data in those 480 lines. And if you still need convincing, I suggest you make a trip to wikipedia.

At this point I have seen conflicting sources, not appleTV or even mac related sources, on this issue. Some say you can display 480p on 480i and others say you can't. So I guess we won't find out for certain until someone tries an AppleTV with a 480i set.

anansei
Jan 13, 2007, 05:24 PM
The Mac mini makes a much more suitable unit than Apple TV anyway - anyone can use a macmini with an adapter - granted you may not get HD quality it still plays any media formats and really do you need HD - apple used to be a company based on functionality and creative tools now they are just making toys for the middle class - the new products that were announced at Macworld are very nice "Toys" -

markie
Jan 13, 2007, 05:51 PM
"Some say you can display 480p on 480i and others say you can't."

Some are clueless and some aren't. 480p is too high for the monitor to handle. Set a computer too high of resolution and refresh rate for the monitor. Same thing. I GUARANTEE you that if this thing outputs 480p it won't work with a normal TV. Of course, it's also almost certainly capable of 480i output, but according to the specs, it doesn't do it. Just like iBooks are capable of dual monitor but it's locked out - doesn't mean it can't be unlocked :)

480i is really x240 not x480. In each frame alternating lines are displayed to create the illusion of x480. This can be deinterlaced to create 30 fps progressive. In fact, TV is often said to be 30 x480 frames per second. It's not. It's 60 x240 frames and how the TV displays it creates the illusion of a 480 line picture. Really you're seeing alternating, slightly offset, 240 line pictures.

MacFan25863
Jan 13, 2007, 06:54 PM
Although it looks like the Apple TV won't support 480i, so the OP won't be able to use it directly, I wonder if there is some third party hardware box that downconverts the HD signal from the Apple TV to 480i? I know there are hardware upconverters, but I wonder if they sell ones that work in the other way...

sjk
Jan 15, 2007, 04:01 PM
Correct, it won't per the specs send 480i. But I doubt it's an "issue." My guess is it's an intentional limitation of the device. They don't want people using these on 4:3 TVs or low-res 480i TVs.
I can think of reasons why Apple would limit Apple TV codecs but why they'd care which type of TV is hooked to it is puzzling. :confused:

check this website out http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/1/9/6543

im not sure of the sources of this website
but on it i see this

Jacqui: Is this HDTV only? Does it just scale down if hooked up to a regular TV?
Apple Employee: Yes, HDTV only. Yes, it just scales down on a regular TV.
That information is confusing the issue and potentially misleading without defining what's meant by "regular TV".

At this point I have seen conflicting sources, not appleTV or even mac related sources, on this issue. Some say you can display 480p on 480i and others say you can't.
Who's claiming 480i support? Until proven otherwise, I'm still sticking to whatever the TV compatibility on the Apple TV - Tech specs (http://www.apple.com/appletv/specs.html) says:

• Enhanced-definition or high-definition widescreen TVs capable of 1080i 60/50Hz, 720p 60/50Hz, 576p 50Hz (PAL format), or 480p 60Hz

tipdrill407
Jan 15, 2007, 06:31 PM
If the Apple Tv does not support 480i than MOST 4:3 CRT televisions are out of luck as most do not support progressive scan.

savar
Jan 15, 2007, 09:43 PM
No, the red, white and yellow is composite connections, not component which are red, green, and blue. If you don't have component, you won't be able to use the AppleTV

To be perfectly clear, component is R, G, & B, while composite is just Y. That should help the OP remember which is which. Component breaks the video signal into its primary color components, while composite has them all mixed together in one wire.

The red and white cables you commonly see on composite connectors is R & W for stereo audio. There are component cables with red and white audio as well.

fredric100
Jan 16, 2007, 11:26 PM
For composite NTSC output, what about starting with the AppleTV HDMI port, HDMI -> DVI -> NTSC, using this hardware:

HDMI to DVI Adapter ($14):
http://www.abccables.com/304-1930.html

DVI to NTSC Adapter ($19):
Go to the apple store at http://store.apple.com, then search for "dvi video adapter." It's the first item in the search results.

sjk
Jan 17, 2007, 04:23 PM
DVI to NTSC Adapter ($19):
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/61234001/wo/8yc3jWsxNe913nYOD13n1npXXY5/3.0.21.1.0.8.25.7.11.1.3
That link won't work because it contains a session ID. I couldn't find the item by searching/browsing.

fredric100
Jan 17, 2007, 04:43 PM
That link won't work because it contains a session ID. I couldn't find the item by searching/browsing.

Go to the apple store at http://store.apple.com, then search for "dvi video adapter." It's the first item in the search results.

sjk
Jan 17, 2007, 05:05 PM
Thanks. I'd been looking for "NTSC" in the product name, d'oh! Here's a more permanent link:

Apple DVI to Video Adapter (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/61084002/wo/1.0.21.1.0.8.25.7.11.0.3)

So you're trying to get HDMI<->Composite via DVI? I doubt that would work for Apple TV because the TV needs progressive scan frequency support.

LethalWolfe
Jan 17, 2007, 05:47 PM
"Some say you can display 480p on 480i and others say you can't."

Some are clueless and some aren't. 480p is too high for the monitor to handle. Set a computer too high of resolution and refresh rate for the monitor. Same thing. I GUARANTEE you that if this thing outputs 480p it won't work with a normal TV. Of course, it's also almost certainly capable of 480i output, but according to the specs, it doesn't do it. Just like iBooks are capable of dual monitor but it's locked out - doesn't mean it can't be unlocked :)

480i is really x240 not x480. In each frame alternating lines are displayed to create the illusion of x480. This can be deinterlaced to create 30 fps progressive. In fact, TV is often said to be 30 x480 frames per second. It's not. It's 60 x240 frames and how the TV displays it creates the illusion of a 480 line picture. Really you're seeing alternating, slightly offset, 240 line pictures.
You're arguing the difference between "six" and "half dozen." It's just two different ways to say the same thing. 60 fields=30 frames=1 second of interlaced NTSC DV/DVD video. 240(field) + 240(field)=480 (frame).

For such attempted nit picking I'm surprised you didn't bring up that NTSC TV is actually 29.97fps, not 30.

EDIT: Anyone w/a Wii have it hooked up to a TV using the component cables?

Lethal

zap2
Jan 17, 2007, 06:15 PM
EDIT: Anyone w/a Wii have it hooked up to a TV using the component cables?

Lethal

Yes...it looks very nice :)


But that does that have to do with Apple TV?

sjk
Jan 17, 2007, 06:49 PM
I GUARANTEE you that if this thing outputs 480p it won't work with a normal TV. Of course, it's also almost certainly capable of 480i output, but according to the specs, it doesn't do it. Just like iBooks are capable of dual monitor but it's locked out - doesn't mean it can't be unlocked :)
I wish my 480i SDTV could be magically unlocked to support 480p. :)

LethalWolfe
Jan 17, 2007, 07:19 PM
Yes...it looks very nice :)


But that does that have to do with Apple TV?

AFAIK Wii over component is 480p and if it works w/a regular 4:3 TV (which I guess I should've specified in my previous post) then it could help put this argument to rest.


Lethal

tipdrill407
Jan 17, 2007, 08:38 PM
AFAIK Wii over component is 480p and if it works w/a regular 4:3 TV (which I guess I should've specified in my previous post) then it could help put this argument to rest.


Lethal

Could've been hooked up to a more modern LCD/Plasma/DLP etc... that supports progressive resolutions. And I thought Wii supports both 480i and 480p over component.

Yvan256
Jan 17, 2007, 10:10 PM
EDIT: Anyone w/a Wii have it hooked up to a TV using the component cables?

I have my DVD player, Xbox 360 and Wii all connected to my 36", CRT, 4:3 Toshiba television. Yes, it does support 480p. No, it can't "letterbox" widescreen content by itself (I can't find a setting in the setup screens for that). It's a Toshiba Cinema Series HD, for those who want to know. And no, I don't know which model it is, it's not written in the front and I can't access the back once it's installed. The model number is also absent from the setup menus.

So I do hope the Apple TV can output in 4:3 by adding the top/bottom black bars by itself or else it'll sure look weird, all stretched vertically.

TuckBodi
Jan 19, 2007, 09:19 PM
For what it's worth, the Apple Sales Rep on the phone told me when I was ordering my Apple TV that it would work with my almost 10 year old 35" Sony Trinitron TV. I didn't believe him when he said it, and regardless, I've been shopping for a new LCD to replace it anyways. He sure seemed positive though I wouldn't have any problems. Oh yeah...the reason why I didn't believe him was he didn't even know the name had been changed from iTV. :eek:

sjk
Jan 19, 2007, 09:46 PM
For what it's worth, the Apple Sales Rep on the phone told me when I was ordering my Apple TV that it would work with my almost 10 year old 35" Sony Trinitron TV. I didn't believe him when he said it, and regardless, I've been shopping for a new LCD to replace it anyways. He sure seemed positive though I wouldn't have any problems. Oh yeah...the reason why I didn't believe him was he didn't even know the name had been changed from iTV. :eek:
Thanks for that tidbit of potential misinformation. Wise to be skeptical about all Apple TV specs, published or not, until the product actually ships. If it turns out to be compatible with 480i SDTV then I'll be tempted to buy one but I can't afford a new TV and ATV right now.

Mac Dummy
Jan 22, 2007, 12:28 PM
For those of you that either don't own an HDTV or a TV with the proper inputs to support AppleTV, or don't like its lack of supported formats. Then maybe the Sling Catcher from SlingMedia (maker of the SlingBox) might be what you want. Ars Technica recently did a intro review. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070108-8569.html From what I understand it also does Divx and Xvid too.

And its $200 w/o the harddrive (although an add-on HDD is planned) instead of $299. Might be a viable option for those of us that need or want it.

sjk
Jan 23, 2007, 03:03 AM
For those of you that either don't own an HDTV or a TV with the proper inputs to support AppleTV, or don't like its lack of supported formats. Then maybe the Sling Catcher from SlingMedia (maker of the SlingBox) might be what you want. Ars Technica recently did a intro review. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070108-8569.html
That's more of a preview than a review. The press release (http://us.slingmedia.com/object/io_1168286861787.html) has some other information, vaguely mentioning Macs.

From what I understand it also does Divx and Xvid too.
The Ars article claims it's media-agnostic, but I'm not sure how they're defining that. Regardless, FairPlay-protected H.264 won't be supported so that gives :apple:TV the advantage for folks interested in iTunes Store purchases.

And its $200 w/o the harddrive (although an add-on HDD is planned) instead of $299. Might be a viable option for those of us that need or want it.
None of the articles I've read says exactly what SlingCatcher requires/supports and sometimes contradict each other. If required, a Slingbox and/or Windows PC would potentially be an additional expense. There's a beta version of SlingPlayer out, but that's only for streaming to Macs, not from them.

brbubba
Mar 21, 2007, 10:14 PM
For those still worrying about this, the setup vid definitely has a 480i mode there.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/apple-tv/first-video-setting-up-apple-tv-246124.php

sjk
Mar 21, 2007, 10:29 PM
For those still worrying about this, the setup vid definitely has a 480i mode there.
Interesting. Thanks for mentioning it.

bajjab99
Mar 22, 2007, 12:39 PM
480i looks to be supported, here's a screen capture:

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/8123/appletv480ixt4.jpg

So, does this mean it will support standard TVs with composite input since most with composite inputs use 480i??

dukemeiser
Mar 22, 2007, 12:42 PM
Can someone please tell me how (or if) this works with a 4:3 TV (not widescreen)? Does it fit the screen or does is it a letterbox? I've got 480p so that's not a problem.

slffl
Mar 22, 2007, 12:49 PM
i have component connection (1) at the back of the tv it goes up -down green blue red. is it right?

it doesnt matter if i dont have a widescreen or hd tv does it?
will the quality be the same?


Thanks again

Ankush Patel

If you DO have component (red, green, blue) then you may be able to use it just fine, it will just be letterboxed. My 4:3 HDTV has an option under the menus to change it from 4:3 to 16:9. The 16:9 just shows up letterboxed.

slffl
Mar 22, 2007, 12:50 PM
480i looks to be supported, here's a screen capture:

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/8123/appletv480ixt4.jpg

So, does this mean it will support standard TVs with composite input since most with composite inputs use 480i??

I would think if you have an SD TV with component (not the same as composite) inputs, then it should work fine.

bajjab99
Mar 22, 2007, 01:13 PM
Guess I'll find out tonight! Mine just got here in the mail!

zap2
Mar 22, 2007, 03:27 PM
Guess I'll find out tonight! Mine just got here in the mail!

Please post as soon as you can...I want to have a for sure answer.

zap2
Mar 22, 2007, 05:02 PM
So I went out an picked it up....its SO COOL!


Works fine on my CTR SDTV, with Component cables. It works under 4:3 also...looks nice in my enhanced 16:9, but it cut off the tops part of my TV(the picture is all there, but not all the TV is uses), so its perfect in 4:3

ankushpatel
Mar 22, 2007, 05:36 PM
so zap2it u used a sdtv with the apple tv and connected it using component cables and it worked?

hows the quality ?

zap2
Mar 22, 2007, 06:02 PM
so zap2it u used a sdtv with the apple tv and connected it using component cables and it worked?

hows the quality ?
I PMed you, but just incase other people want to know, here its what I said

Very Very well...very happy with it.

My TV has component cables and its flawless. It works in 4:3 and the 16:9 mode very well...the 16:9 looks nicer, but my TV doesn't allow the whole screen to be used, so the 4:3 is fine. And since I'm used to the 4:3 look of game consoles, TV, AppleTV it looks perfectly normal


Of course if anyone wants more info PM me or post here, but I'm think PMs would be faster

exodar
Mar 22, 2007, 06:05 PM
This is what I have been hoping for. I have a Standard Def (480i) Sony Wega with Component Inputs and I was hoping that once someone got their hands on one that it would reveal it works with my TV.

I CLEARLY see the 480i option in this setup video:

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/apple-tv/first-video-setting-up-apple-tv-246124.php

Can you please confirm FOR CERTAIN that it works with a Standard Def TV that has Component Inputs?

Thanks a bunch...
exodar

sjk
Mar 22, 2007, 07:22 PM
Can you please confirm FOR CERTAIN that it works with a Standard Def TV that has Component Inputs?
I think zap2 just did. :D

Apple needs to update the Tech Specs (http://www.apple.com/appletv/specs.html).

dukemeiser
Mar 22, 2007, 07:40 PM
You'd think that Apple wouldn't restrict Apple TV to "widescreen TV" only on the specs. They are potentially confusing and shutting out thousands of customers!

sjk
Mar 22, 2007, 08:08 PM
You'd think that Apple wouldn't restrict Apple TV to "widescreen TV" only on the specs. They are potentially confusing and shutting out thousands of customers!
I agree, even though probably only a minority of those potential customers would read or even understand the specs. Based on some of the questions/comments on this and other forums it seems plenty of folks never bothered reading them before posting. :)

Anyway, there could well be other Apple TV secrets to be discovered (for better or worse) that Apple hasn't mentioned.

zap2
Mar 22, 2007, 09:09 PM
I agree, even though probably only a minority of those potential customers would read or even understand the specs. Based on some of the questions/comments on this and other forums it seems plenty of folks never bothered reading them before posting. :)

Anyway, there could well be other Apple TV secrets to be discovered (for better or worse) that Apple hasn't mentioned.

Well seeing how Apple gave out the wrong information, reading it didn't do much good!

sjk
Mar 22, 2007, 10:07 PM
Well seeing how Apple gave out the wrong information, reading it didn't do much good!
Still accurate enough as a starting point for at least partly answering some of the questions people were/are asking.

Btw, any idea how Apple TV displayed output on your 480i TV before your manually configured it with that setting?

bajjab99
Mar 23, 2007, 11:28 AM
it works fine on my 4:3, 480i TV too. unlike the other post, I think the 4:30 stretch looks horrible though, luckily my TV has a 16:9 option that makes it look good (with black bars up top & bottom). Totally worth it if your tv has 480i & a 16:9 option. Now i can save up for that widescreen tv someday.

plinden
Mar 23, 2007, 12:00 PM
So now that we know it works on SDTVs (despite three different reps at MWSF telling me it needed EDTV or better - it also appears to work great with wireless g, again despite what I was told at MWSF), does anyone know of a good way of connecting to a TV with only S-video or composite video (no component inputs)?

My SDTV is only four years old and I'm too cheap to buy a HDTV just for this.

xlosltove777
Mar 23, 2007, 12:00 PM
For this question let's say it works with 480i.
I have a Comcast Box that has component input so I can plug in say a DVD player into it and then it'll go to the TV using the old-school coax cable. Could I just hook up the :apple: TV like that?

sjk
Mar 23, 2007, 01:04 PM
it works fine on my 4:3, 480i TV too.
Cool.

I have a feeling Apple silently added 480i SDTV compatibility mostly to avoid fallout from people who bought :apple:TV not realizing it wasn't originally meant to support that.

unlike the other post, I think the 4:30 stretch looks horrible though, luckily my TV has a 16:9 option that makes it look good (with black bars up top & bottom). Totally worth it if your tv has 480i & a 16:9 option.
Thanks for the info. I'm curious if my SDTV has that 16:9 support; I only remember offhand the old non-progressive Pioneer DVD changer can be configured for different aspect ratios though I've never found a good reason to do that.

Now i can save up for that widescreen tv someday.
I've started looking at 32" 720p LCDs a bit, figuring that would be a worthwhile upgrade to my 27" CRT without going overboard considering how the technology/pricing is changing. But I may stick with my analog-centric setup for another year or so, which includes an EyeTV 200 and broken EyeHome (hopefully repaired with the replacement power supply that arrives today); a migration to digital could quickly exceed my current budget.

zap2
Mar 23, 2007, 06:32 PM
Still accurate enough as a starting point for at least partly answering some of the questions people were/are asking.

Btw, any idea how Apple TV displayed output on your 480i TV before your manually configured it with that setting?

On the start up it asks so I just put it in 480i...before that i don't know, but i'd bet 480i because it was support on my 480i only tv

tdhurst
Mar 23, 2007, 06:51 PM
if i play a dvd my laptop will i be able to stream it to my tv ?? that is the most important factor in my opinion .. if its only from itunes that would be very dissapointing !!

Dude, have you even looked at the specs?

Read them again and check if it says ANYTHING about DVDs or playing videos that AREN'T in iTunes.

tdhurst
Mar 23, 2007, 06:55 PM
EDIT: Anyone w/a Wii have it hooked up to a TV using the component cables?

Lethal

Yes and the difference is quite noticeable (compared to composite on the same tv).

motulist
Mar 23, 2007, 07:11 PM
Apple TV works with regular old standard def 4:3 TVs!
Check out item #2 on this site:

http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/posts/Article/appleTV-2007-03-22-21-30

sjk
Mar 24, 2007, 03:36 AM
Dude, have you even looked at the specs?
Apparently not, nor my recent post suggesting how they're sufficient to answer questions like that.

Yvan256
Mar 24, 2007, 12:36 PM
Can someone please tell me how (or if) this works with a 4:3 TV (not widescreen)? Does it fit the screen or does is it a letterbox? I've got 480p so that's not a problem.

The AppleTV has no "TV ratio" setting, it always outputs in 16:9, so you'll get everything in anamorphic on your TV, just like me (36" 4:3). There's no letterboxing feature/setting, unfortunatly.

I find it sad that a simple firmware update could fix this problem. And I find it weird that they don't support 4:3 sets but do support 480i even though you need components or HDMI input on your TV to use it. Is there even such a thing as a widescreen TV with component inputs but that can't do 480p?

dukemeiser
Mar 27, 2007, 07:33 PM
Just got my Apple TV today. The good news is that it works with 4:3 aspect ratio televisions. The bad news is that it scrunches everything because it's output is 16:9. It was very noticeable at 480i. However I switched to 576i (which I think must be for LCD screens) and the scrunching was reduced a lot. It isn't perfect, but everything looked a lot closer to normal compared to 480i. So if you've got a 4:3 give 576i a try and see what you think.

Yvan256
Mar 27, 2007, 08:16 PM
Just got my Apple TV today. The good news is that it works with 4:3 aspect ratio televisions. The bad news is that it scrunches everything because it's output is 16:9. It was very noticeable at 480i. However I switched to 576i (which I think must be for LCD screens) and the scrunching was reduced a lot. It isn't perfect, but everything looked a lot closer to normal compared to 480i. So if you've got a 4:3 give 576i a try and see what you think.

480 is for NTSC, 60Hz (America, Japan), 576 is for PAL, 50Hz (Europe and other places).

Mr.A
Mar 28, 2007, 06:33 AM
Is there even such a thing as a widescreen TV with component inputs but that can't do 480p?

Yup, I have one.

The majority of widescreen sets sold from '97 to early '99ish would probably fall into that small category.

I'm not sure exactly when component inputs became available, but once DVDs hit the market in early '97, the vast majority (all?) of widescreens sets had component inputs. Just a couple years later, once the the 480p/720p/1080i sets arrived, and the widescreen/480i/component "combo" obviously disappeared.

sjk
Mar 28, 2007, 01:47 PM
I'm not sure exactly when component inputs became available, but once DVDs hit the market in early '97, the vast majority (all?) of widescreens sets had component inputs.
Seems DVD players are the reason why many non-widescreen SDTV's also have component video input. When I bought a new TV several years ago I made sure it had component video support to use with my older DVD player, but decided 480i was enough (and cheaper) since that player was pre-progressive scan anyway. And progressive scan DVD was just gaining momentum, still too pricey to upgrade mine with a better TV for it.

I wonder how many people have less expensive progressive scan DVD players they bought after their older 480i SDTVs that only have S-Video input at best. They'd have more to immediately gain with a newer TV than me because I'm still using the older DVD player though now it would be relatively inexpensive to update.

stagi
Apr 10, 2007, 05:56 PM
Just got my Apple TV today. The good news is that it works with 4:3 aspect ratio televisions. The bad news is that it scrunches everything because it's output is 16:9. It was very noticeable at 480i. However I switched to 576i (which I think must be for LCD screens) and the scrunching was reduced a lot. It isn't perfect, but everything looked a lot closer to normal compared to 480i. So if you've got a 4:3 give 576i a try and see what you think.
Do you have a photo of what the image looks like when it is scrunched? I would like to see how bad it really morphs the image. Right now I have a Songa Wega that is about 6 years old but works perfect and even though I would like to buy a nice new TV don't have the budget right now but would like the :apple: TV to watch some TV shows I have on iTunes. If anyone can post a sample here that would be great.

Jeff Meredith
Apr 13, 2007, 08:44 AM
I have an Apple TV and a three year old TV with component (and composite) inputs. I use the component input to my TV and the audio to my stereo.

During setup you specify 480i, 480p, 720p, etc. and I just chose 480i. I also tried 480p, it was worth a try, but it didn't work. I saw an image, two of them actually, sort of like a stereoscopic image. So progressive does not equal interlaced.

I don't want to get rid of my old tv until it dies and fill up the land fill unnecessarily and I don't want to hasten its departure. When it does die then I will upgrade.

Right now, I play music videos on it and I can play my whole iTunes library through my Stereo. I have also played purchased movies and though I didn't see a side by side comparison. Pirates of the Caribbean was pretty compelling compared to the DVD. Looked great.

I've also seen the baseball game Red Sox vs. KC Royals with Dice K pitching. I saw a little vertical letter boxing, about an inch. But it still looked great, had no commercials and the local KC announcers ( a little bit biased ) but enjoyable. I only had to pay $2 for that game rather than $15-40 a month to subscribe to a network. This is going to be nice for the amount of sports I watch.

I know Apple is not wanting to get peoples hopes up who don't have component inputs on their SDTVs but it really is great for those of us who haven't been spoiled with HDTV quality yet.

Love my :apple: TV with SDTV.

Yvan256
Apr 13, 2007, 11:03 AM
[...] To OP, it has to work. Just like a DVD player will output a picture at a certain resolution, e.g., a widescreen movie, and your TV copes by displaying black bars on the top and bottom. It should do the same for the AppleTV.[...]

Actually not all TVs do this. Mine doesn't. It's usually the job of the playback box to letterbox the content or not, depending on the playback box TV setting. However the :apple:TV doesn't have such a setting. My DVD player has it, my Nintendo Wii has it, my Xbox 360 has it. But not the :apple:TV.

There is a converter box (http://www.svideo.com/appletv2tv.html) coming soon, however while it seems to letterbox the content it will also force you to use S-Video instead of components. And then forget about 4:3 content, it will have a black border all around (letterboxing from the converter + pillarboxing from the :apple:TV). It also seem to have a US$40 rebate until the release date, April 30.

If your TV doesn't have a letterboxing/16:9 mode, don't plan on buying anything from the iTunes Store and simply use the :apple:TV with your own encoded content, there is a solution.

Since the :apple:TV assumes a 16:9 screen, all you have to do is encode your movies with the wrong aspect ratio. If a movie is 720x400, encode to 720x300. It will look wrong on your computer or a widescreen TV, but it will display correctly from the :apple:TV to your 4:3 TV.

Why Apple didn't add a simple "TV type" setting is beyond me. Even if the :apple:TV supported old square TVs that wouldn't mean they'd have to do their marketing with a square TV. :rolleyes:

Yvan256
Apr 13, 2007, 11:10 AM
Do you have a photo of what the image looks like when it is scrunched? I would like to see how bad it really morphs the image.

What the :apple:TV outputs is actually anamorphic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamorphic_format#Development

gkarris
Apr 13, 2007, 12:42 PM
Actually not all TVs do this. Mine doesn't. It's usually the job of the playback box to letterbox the content or not, depending on the playback box TV setting. However the :apple:TV doesn't have such a setting. My DVD player has it, my Nintendo Wii has it, my Xbox 360 has it. But not the :apple:TV.

There is a converter box (http://www.svideo.com/appletv2tv.html) coming soon, however while it seems to letterbox the content it will also force you to use S-Video instead of components. And then forget about 4:3 content, it will have a black border all around (letterboxing from the converter + pillarboxing from the :apple:TV). It also seem to have a US$40 rebate until the release date, April 30.

If your TV doesn't have a letterboxing/16:9 mode, don't plan on buying anything from the iTunes Store and simply use the :apple:TV with your own encoded content, there is a solution.

Since the :apple:TV assumes a 16:9 screen, all you have to do is encode your movies with the wrong aspect ratio. If a movie is 720x400, encode to 720x300. It will look wrong on your computer or a widescreen TV, but it will display correctly from the :apple:TV to your 4:3 TV.

Why Apple didn't add a simple "TV type" setting is beyond me. Even if the :apple:TV supported old square TVs that wouldn't mean they'd have to do their marketing with a square TV. :rolleyes:


They will hopefully update the software to accomodate 4:3 sets. I have a front projector in 4:3. I use its 16:9 mode to squish the picture. But then there's the problem of watching Star Trek: Remastered on my XB360, the original parts has black all around it - sort of tacky...

rockstarjoe
Apr 15, 2007, 09:08 PM
Anyone know if there is an easy way to check if your 4:3 tv supports "widescreen" mode? I have an older Samsung that has component in but I couldn't find anything in the documentation about it. It does have a "zoom" mode but this just seems to stretch the picture vertically. Any ideas? Thanks!

stagi
Apr 16, 2007, 09:53 AM
There should be something for 16:9 in your menu. I have a older sony wega (about 7 or 8 years old) and when I go into the menu and then seutp I do have a control to switch to 16:9, so I think this would work with the :apple: Tv. (don't have mine yet, but might get one soon)

sjk
Apr 16, 2007, 02:33 PM
A few comments in AppleTV Surprises And Impressions (http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/posts/Article/appleTV-2007-03-22-21-30) claim that some TVs support it automatically.

rockstarjoe
Apr 16, 2007, 03:07 PM
A few comments in AppleTV Surprises And Impressions (http://www.rogueamoeba.com/utm/posts/Article/appleTV-2007-03-22-21-30) claim that some TVs support it automatically.

Thanks. I found this response particularly interesting. Can anyone with an AppleTV test this? I'm not exactly sure what this guy is talking about but he seems to have found a nice workaround, if accurate:

"I seem to have found a "hidden" video mode that may come in handy for some people trying to hook up a standard (4:3) format television to their new Apple TV.

I have such a display, specifically a Dell 2007FP, connected via a HDMI->DVI cable, and I've been using the 720p mode with the Dell's 16:9 "squish" mode enabled with decent results. The biggest problem is that 4:3 content is letter-boxed on all four sides. 16:9 content looks fine. I've also heard from several people that they don't even have it this good. Read on!

Settings > TV Resolution presents three options: 480p, 720p HD, and 1080i HD. However, when I hold Menu and "+" for six seconds, triggering the "cycle through video modes" function, two additional modes become available: When 480p is checked, 853x480 becomes available, and when 720p HD is checked, 1280x720 becomes available. Critically, however, selecting either of these two options (inexplicably) puts the display into 1280x960 mode. 1280/960 == 4/3.

Putting the Dell back into "fill" mode after making this change allows me to view 16:9 content as before, without any loss of quality, and also allows me to view 4:3 content full screen. What help this will be with other displays and connection methods I can't say, but I thought it worth mentioning...
Posted by alakaboo at Wed Mar 28 02:30:19 2007 "

Yvan256
Apr 18, 2007, 10:06 AM
Thanks. I found this response particularly interesting. Can anyone with an AppleTV test this? I'm not exactly sure what this guy is talking about but he seems to have found a nice workaround, if accurate:

I don't know what this guy did, or how he did it, but I've tested it myself and I can't make any 853x480 mode appear in that list.

rockstarjoe
Apr 18, 2007, 10:38 AM
I don't know what this guy did, or how he did it, but I've tested it myself and I can't make any 853x480 mode appear in that list.

Oh well, thanks for trying for me!

Yvan256
Apr 18, 2007, 10:55 AM
Oh well, thanks for trying for me!

Well, to tell you the truth the test was mostly for myself since my TV is 4:3 and doesn't have a 16:9/letterbox mode. I have to encode my DVDs and TV shows with the wrong aspect ratio so they show up correctly when played back through the :apple:TV. :rolleyes:

edit: I went to Future Shop with my :apple:TV (the guy who helped me didn't know what it was), and I tested to see if the "hidden video modes" would appear when connect via HDMI (what alakaboo wrote) and it's just not true. And yes the :apple:TV was in 480p just like he said.

I don't know why alakaboo would start false rumors like that.