Looking for first Mac, what should dad get??

[VoodooDaddy]

First the usual: long-time pc user, looking to be first-time Apple owner. I build my own pcs, have 2 mid to high end systems AND I just bought a new Sony Vaio about 3 months ago.

Now what I'm looking for is a low(er) end Mac that I can get at a reasonable price to see if I like it. I briefly considered getting a new ibook before I got the Vaio but I didn't want to spend that kind of money on a notebook not knowing if mac was really a direction I wanted to go.

Then I considered a ew emac for $999, or the older crt stlye imac for $799 from apple.com
but even now I'm not sure I want to pay that much just to experiment with a mac. For $800-1000 I can build a very high end pc.

I guess you may be wondering "then what exactly do you want?"

Well, what about the older ibook, the "clamshell" style (I think I've seen it called that). Would it suffice for what I want to use it for and would it give me a fair glimpse of what mac has to offer?? Basically I aim just to use it for web, music, minor photo editing stuff. That's about it. Anything else can be done on any of my other pcs.

So what exactly should I look for? Obviously I'm looking to get it off ebay, but I have no clue what is a fair price for whatever amount of hardware I'm getting.

Or if someone here is looking to sell one I'm interested. Ideally my price range is say $400-500, I really don't want to go beyond that as any more and I should just pop for the cheapest new ibook at $999 (or less off ebay). Also, an older imac is an option, same deal, what is a fair price for a used machine compared with what it actually has in it??

I have no idea about mac processors. The clock speeds seem way behind amd or pentium, but with the g3 and g4 I do know that they don't compare the same way.

Thanks in advance.

[mmmdreg]

Go for an eMac. The old iBooks and iMacs are OLD and will not give a good glimpse of the mac world. eMacs are relatively cheap and they perform nicely. They also have nice specs for what they are.

[caveman_uk]

Yep, emac. They start at $800 new. You could probably find an older one slightly cheaper. The older ibooks and imacs will work fine under OS 9 but will crawl under OS X. The newer ibooks are similar in price to the emac but you pay for portability rather than performance.

The G3 and G4 have roughly similar performance clock for clock but the G4 has an SIMD unit (like SSE2 or 3DNow only done better) which is used quite heavily by both the OS and Apples apps to speed up performance so there is a difference between the two in real world stuff. To compare them to P4's is hard but they are a more efficient design than the P4's so are more powerful than a clock speed comparison would suggest. At the risk of being flamed I'd guess a single 1GHz G4 is similar to a sub-2GHz P4 but that's only an estimate.

[sparks9]

wrong post

[mrjamin]

Originally posted by sparks9
wrong post

huh?

anyway, i agree - the emacs - they're really good for the money.

[primalman]

yes, eMac, the $999 1ghz with the combo drive, not the $799 CDROM. Blech!

[tazo]

I believe the best deal is a refurbished imac. 17'' flat panel, 80 gig hdd, dvd burner, the iapps, and its 800mhz, and its like 1500. best deal out there. try and put a 17'' flat panel, dvd burner, and 80 gig hdd in a wintel for 1500. :)

[caveman_uk]

I would agree but he wants it cheap and the $799 bargain basement one is still more than he really wants to pay...

[Groovsonic]

Originally posted by VoodooDaddy

Then I considered a ew emac for $999, or the older crt stlye imac for $799 from apple.com
but even now I'm not sure I want to pay that much just to experiment with a mac. For $800-1000 I can build a very high end pc.


Hey! I have an idea!

Buy either a fully loaded iBook, or any other mac that tickles your fancy. If you don't like it, sell it! Macs have really high resale values. Lets say you spent even $1500 on a mac. Lets say you hate it. Sell it and you will make most of your money back. Go ahead and buy any mac model you like, just make sure it has AT LEASt 256mb of ram. The computer runs MUCH better with at least 256. 128 really dosent cut it very well.

[tazo]

Originally posted by caveman_uk
I would agree but he wants it cheap and the $799 bargain basement one is still more than he really wants to pay...

dont buy the G3 new, for the same price you can buy the lowened G4. its not worth it to spend the same and get less. go with the emac.

[neut]

any stores near you with macs?

try spening a few days (an hour or so at a time) at the store playing with the different macs. they're pretty spendy too buy just to try out. or better yet find someone who already owns one and play with it.

*remember your machine should run smoother than a store model or someone elses machine. assuming you will learn how to maintain it properly and give it enough ram and HD space.

if you buy a low end and like it, you'll be kicking yourself for not just buying a high end machine and replacing some of those wintel machines.

if you are into linux check out yellow dogs machines here (http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/)

[toughboy]

Originally posted by primalman
yes, eMac, the $999 1ghz with the combo drive, not the $799 CDROM. Blech!

I really do agree but you may need a ram upgrade with a combodrive eMac..

I'm just like you, I also plan to buy a mac this summer.. I've become a real mac-lover with iPod. I'm curious about seeing what I adore is really worth to love and I'm planing to buy a iBook or maybe a Powerbook because I want a notebook, but you seem to be looking for a desktop computer rather than a portable one...

as a result I'd recommend an eMac too... :)

[primalman]

If you are a student or work for edu....listen up.

There are some unadvertised specials on Powerbooks and iBooks for EDU purchasers, but you must ask your buyer to contact the Apple rep. They are standard configs only, shipped from Taiwan, and are limited....

PBs...It is only the 12" combo and Superdrive, 15" 1ghz only and all iBooks.

I just bought a 15" 1ghz superdrive TiBook for $2060! WOOT! iBooks go way cheap on this special....get to the school buyer now!

[evil]

about the education discount. yes its a sweet deal and some machines are discounted more deeply than others. so keep a look out.

about trying out a mac-
i also was weary on how i would feel about a mac, so about 5 months ago i bought a used 500 mhz g3 i book.
i fell in love with it and having it for only 3 months or so i sold it for almost as much as i paid for it. no big loss. i then used the money that i got back plus extra to pick up a brand new powerbook.

2 lessons here i guess. if you spend the money on a mac and dont want it, youll be able to sell it again for a good price. macs hold their value better than wintels.
second, you wont want to use a wintel again. dont go too lowgrade in your mac purchase because youll want a better one.

[billyboy]

Why dont you rent a new mac for a month. I have seen ads for $100-$150 a month for Powermacs. Must be similar deals for emacs?

Renting is a dear do for using a computer in the long term, but for what you need, Id have thought its the way to go.

It seems ridiculous that you have to spend $500 or more just to see if you like Mac. Doesnt say much for the chances of attracting switchers does it?

FWIW I bought my PB in the hope that it was as good as all the info and reviews that I gleaned on the internet. Having chopped and changed my mind between ibook and Powerbook - there is a massive price difference - my "blind" purchase worked out fine. I am so glad I went for the top end, because there is just so much spare capacity in the thing and I can do everything I wanted with such straightforward ease. I cant believe you won't be impessed by a digital hub mac.

[yzedf]

VoodooDaddy - the problem with buying older Mac hardware is it will not run OS X properly. OS X requires a minimum of 16MB of video memory. I am making the assumption that you are looking at Mac's due to OS X...?

[MacFan25]

I would either go for an older eMac, or just go ahead and get a new eMac. Apple recently lowered the eMac's price. The eMac now starts at $799, which I think is a great deal.

The thing about getting an older "Clamshell" iBook, is that it is not going to be fast, and may not run OS X well.

[tazo]

Originally posted by MacFan25
I would either go for an older eMac, or just go ahead and get a new eMac. Apple recently lowered the eMac's price. The eMac now starts at $799, which I think is a great deal.

The thing about getting an older "Clamshell" iBook, is that it is not going to be fast, and may not run OS X well.

honestly, why not look at the refurbished emacs, they are usually 700, and have the combo drive and everything. those are the best deals out there; those and the refurbed imacs. just my 2% of 1.00

[CMillerERAU]

I got a low end eMac (700MHz, CD-R) and its been an OK machine. I say OK because it needed a RAM upgrade to be really useful in OS X and the monitor has been flaky. I'm sure Apple has ironed out the monitor problems of the older eMacs (though I had it sent in once and it still flickers at high resolutions). I would go for something refurbished since those are cheaper and are looked over with a fine tooth comb.

[VoodooDaddy]

sorry ppl, I know you are trying to help but apparently some of you cant read. I dont want to spend $1000 for a Mac just to see what its like. Odds are, 99.99999% Im not going to switch to Mac. For $1000 I can build myself a near cutting edge pc.

If I cant get a $400-500 clamshell ibook or older imac then I dont even want to mess with it. Billybob summed it up perfectly I think:

Billybob: "It seems ridiculous that you have to spend $500 or more just to see if you like Mac. Doesnt say much for the chances of attracting switchers does it?"


The more I read here actually the less interested Im becoming. OS X really isnt that important. I know its the newest OS and the best one, but if I cant get a feel for Mac on OS 9 or 10 (I dont know all the variations) then I guess I dont want to spend the money.

I just bought a Vaio notebook for $1400 so I dont have any interest in the new ibook, unless someone wants to give me one.

[Freg3000]

I guess you just can't get a Mac then. If you just want to buy a cheap one to fool around, I doubt you'll find one that runs anything well. Spending $400 on a clamshell iBook is just like throwing money away. Wait a little while (or sell one of those PCs!) and the get the recommended eMac.

[VoodooDaddy]

Originally posted by Freg3000
I guess you just can't get a Mac then. If you just want to buy a cheap one to fool around, I doubt you'll find one that runs anything well. Spending $400 on a clamshell iBook is just like throwing money away. Wait a little while (or sell one of those PCs!) and the get the recommended eMac.

So what you are saying is the older macs are crap?? Were they crap back when they were new or just because they are dated?? I mean my P3 450mhz system was good back in the day, but now its crap. BUT, it can still do what I want the mac for: net, music, photo managment, photoshop, games (obviously not anything really recent but Sims, Sim City, Roller Coaster Tycoon, I dont play alot of graphics intense games anyhow), dvds...


Im confused. Most here would say that macs are far and away better than pc, but you are saying buying an older ibook is throwing money away??

[Tequila Grandma]

Originally posted by VoodooDaddy
The more I read here actually the less interested Im becoming. OS X really isnt that important. I know its the newest OS and the best one, but if I cant get a feel for Mac on OS 9 or 10 (I dont know all the variations) then I guess I dont want to spend the money.
OSX isn't just like a "newer" version of 9 (as 9 and 8 were really newer versions of 7, etc etc), it's a completely different OS. I refuse to touch OS9 anymore -- if you're looking to see what Macintosh currently has to offer, and you start out using 8 or 9, you're not at all going to be seeing the full capabilities.

Arigato,
Brook

[amnesiac1984]

Originally posted by VoodooDaddy
So what you are saying is the older macs are crap?? Were they crap back when they were new or just because they are dated?? I mean my P3 450mhz system was good back in the day, but now its crap. BUT, it can still do what I want the mac for: net, music, photo managment, photoshop, games (obviously not anything really recent but Sims, Sim City, Roller Coaster Tycoon, I dont play alot of graphics intense games anyhow), dvds...


Im confused. Most here would say that macs are far and away better than pc, but you are saying buying an older ibook is throwing money away??


Ignore him, what he said was wrong. I guess the people here are worried you'll get a slow machine and not like macs as a result. Mac OS X runs okay on any machine form the last 5 years, I know this from experience, you jsut need to have lots of RAM.

The faster the better obviously, and an eMac would be good.

As for getting to know mac os on 9 or 10,, it does make a huge difference. OS X is lightyears ahead of OS 9, much more than the difference between 98 and XP.

You do not need 16mb of VRAM to run os X, you jsut need it for the on screen graphics to be run of the video card, systems are still useable without it.

Macs last a lot longer than wintel PCs. My 6 year old Beige G3 is running Mac OS 10.2.6 (the latest) and is under heavy use by my dad's secretary for databases/office/internet/ email etc.

Another thing to note tho, its short sighted to say you will not start using it for more. There are things that people use their macs for everyday that doesn't normally occur to windows users, not so much anymore, but iTunes is the best mp3 player out there and apples other included Apps are similarly superior to anything included with Windows.

[VoodooDaddy]

Originally posted by amnesiac1984

Another thing to note tho, its short sighted to say you will not start using it for more.

I just think its a very high probability that I wont switch completely. I may use both, probably use the pc twice as much as the mac, but I'd at least like to try mac.

[voicegy]

Originally posted by VoodooDaddy
Ideally my price range is say $400-500, I really don't want to go beyond that as any more and I should just pop for the cheapest new ibook at $999 (or less off ebay).

Seems simple to me. Stay within your price range, go to eBay, and grab a Mac within the spec you're willing to spend.

It's not the best way to introduce yourself to the Macintosh, because, obviously, new machines are generally superior to older ones.

Clamshell iBook, CRT iMac, whatever. What I'm hearing here is a PRICE issue, not a model issue. If you see an old iBook or old iMac for 500 bucks, go for it.

All I fear is that you're going to get a used machine from a stranger and you're going to be disappointed and therefore conclude that Macs are NOT the way to go and you'll continue to build PC boxes for a thousand bucks that take care of your every need.

Sounds fair to me.

[tazo]

Originally posted by VoodooDaddy
I just think its a very high probability that I wont switch completely. I may use both, probably use the pc twice as much as the mac, but I'd at least like to try mac.

well why dont you go to your local COMPUSA or apple store and try them out?

[Fukui]

Voodoo:

Here's my advice. You want to try a mac, for yourself right? OK, just go and buy (off ebay or something) an older G4 tower. 400Mhz G4 is fine for OS X. The only thing that might slow it down is an old and slow HD and an old ATI card, both of which can be replaced cheaply and easily.

I have a 3-year old G4 cube, and I've switched the video to a Geforce2 MX, added 512 RAM, and a fast WD HD with 8MB cache, thats it, and OS X runs absolutely fine for what your saying.
Programs load in about 2-3 seconds on average, its really just as fast as those emacs etc. and you can find those old G4 towers for less than 500-or-so dollars.

Really, if all you want is to try it, an older G4 tower is probably (unless its broke) JUST FINE.

[VoodooDaddy]

thanks Fukui, thats something that I hadnt even looked at (the G4 tower) and it seems to fall under my price range more than the older ibooks (I guess portability still drives the price of those)

Will those towers work with any type of monitor?

[Fukui]

Yea, standard VGA/DVI stuff, it should be fine though those cards might be too weak for Quartz extreme...

Also, they might not have OS X.2 loaded in them, but alot do. Some even are loaded with 1.5GB ram (!) and still are around 500 dollars. Besides, I think most people who are used to building PC's find a tower to be better. And iBook HD's are slower than slime anyway...

[billyboy]

Originally posted by VoodooDaddy
I just think its a very high probability that I wont switch completely. I may use both, probably use the pc twice as much as the mac, but I'd at least like to try mac.

Once you tried a mac you wont go back! Seriously, as a switcher, I assure you it is just a pleasure to work on a Mac with Jaguar, and the time spent on your PC will drop and drop.

Fom my experience of OS9 in Classic, Jaguar is a quantum leap in computing, and as I did, you can read around the subject, but till you see it in action...

[job]

Originally posted by yzedf
OS X requires a minimum of 16MB of video memory.

That statement is pure BS. I'm running OS X with 8MB of VRAM on my iMac DV.

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by job
That statement is pure BS. I'm running OS X with 8MB of VRAM on my iMac DV.

That is BS, I am running 10.2.6 on my iMac DV with no problems. I put 512MB of RAM in it and it runs it very well. Not like a new computer would, but decent for day to day tasks, Safari, IE, Mail, iTunes, Keynote, MS Office, iPhoto (slow but fully functional), etc. The only thing that it has problems with is iMovie.

If you want a cheap Mac just to try out I would recommend a G3 400Mhz+ (or any G4) with plenty of RAM. You just have to remember it is not new and it will run like an older PC for speed. It is completely usable and enjoyable. I still love using my iMac, and have no speed issues for most tasks. I would like a new eMac, but this one just won't break down.

One other bit of advice. If you want a cheap Mac, a used desktop, is a much better choice then an old Clamshell. I think you will find running OSX is much better on either a B&W G3, iMac DV or older Graphite G4. Those models would fit easily in your price range and have decent performance to get your feet wet.

[rfgecko33]

At the risk of offending what seems to be a gaggle of Mac salespeople in the house, buy a beige G3 VooDoo. I have one of the old G3 266 models running 10.2.6 and it works fine. It slows a bit on occasion, but that's to be expected from a machine that old. I am going to make the leap and guess that you will understand that a new dual G4 would run faster.

For the purpose of learning what Jaguar is all about, one of these will do just fine. They can be had from ebay for around $100. Then you can get an adaptor and a cheap A/B monitor switch and just use your existing PC monitor.

[VoodooDaddy]

Originally posted by rfgecko33
At the risk of offending what seems to be a gaggle of Mac salespeople in the house, buy a beige G3 VooDoo. I have one of the old G3 266 models running 10.2.6 and it works fine. It slows a bit on occasion, but that's to be expected from a machine that old. I am going to make the leap and guess that you will understand that a new dual G4 would run faster.

For the purpose of learning what Jaguar is all about, one of these will do just fine. They can be had from ebay for around $100. Then you can get an adaptor and a cheap A/B monitor switch and just use your existing PC monitor.

now this is of interest to me. ALL I want out of this mac is funtional internet, music manipulation with iTunes(I have an iPod), use of digital photo management, and the occasional use of photoshop. That is ALL I want. Im not looking for something to run any games, Im not looking for something to run some cad program or any digital video editing or anything that requires a high end processor/ram/video card.

I would like something that will run OS X fairly well without alot of slowdown. For what its worth, I had an old pc, P3 450mhz, 16mb video card, 128mb ram. I was curious to see how Win XP ran on it because that pc was at the minimum recommendation. Well, it ran just fine. A tad slower on boot or shutdown, a touch slower opening certain apps, but basically for the basic functions I used it for it was fine. Surely OS X could run decent on a low end machine as long as its within minimum specs.

And on that note...can someone please explain the different os'es to me. Whats the difference between 10, 10.1, 10.1.5, 10.2, Jaguar, OS X, etc.... Which one is the one I would want???

[CMillerERAU]

Originally posted by VoodooDaddy
And on that note...can someone please explain the different os'es to me. Whats the difference between 10, 10.1, 10.1.5, 10.2, Jaguar, OS X, etc.... Which one is the one I would want???

Definately get Jaguar. OS X, unlike Windows, is updated much more often mostly because it was such a new system Apple had a lot of bugs to work out. Jaguar works very well on older systems, I had a 266Mhz iMac and OS X was impracticaly slow until 10.2 Jaguar came out. It might even be worth your while to wait for Panther (10.3) and see if it will be any more optomized. Just my 2 cents.

[rfgecko33]

It's interesting that you bring up running XP on a P3 450, because that is very similar to what you will experience running Jaguar on the older G3's. Also, just like the P3 - XP machine, the old G3 running Jaguar will love all the RAM you can feed it.

As far as the number's game that is OSX, you will want Jaguar. I believe the current version after all the updates is 10.2.6. There are already a few things out there that require 10.2 to install, so you might as well start ahead of the game. To reference you back to Windows, think of the first OSX, 10.0.X as Windows XP. OSX 10.1.X would be Windows XP with Service Pack 1. OSX Jaguar 10.2.X would be Longhorn or whatever Microsoft is readying for release. That's how I see it. Anyone else feel free to correct me.

[Coca-Cola]

I think the best idea is to get the eMac. A new one because it will come with lots of good Mac os X software ready to go. If you have to go out and find it all yourself it will take time. Some of the software you never would have thought you needed and wouldn't have bought on your own. Upgrading os 9 software to os X software cost me a lot of money. Also buying an external cdrw, ram, and eventually an external HD have cost a damn fortune. Save yourself the time and money. Get the new eMac.

[Fukui]

And on that note...can someone please explain the different os'es to me. Whats the difference between 10, 10.1, 10.1.5, 10.2, Jaguar, OS X, etc.... Which one is the one I would want???
10 was the first version after public beta, its feature list, like quartz graphics etc was implemented, but the OS was not at all optomized (and S.J made no bones about it), 10.1 was a free upgrade and made OS X fast enough to actually use. 10.1.5 was the last free upgrade before Jaguar (10.2) this added most if not all the missing API's and improved perfomance, and file journaling etc that OS X needed. As long as you have jaguar (a.k.a 10.2) you can get free upgrades to 10.2.x through the internet. I wouldnt get a beige G3 or something as old as that, they cant even run OS 9 (apple's version of DOS j/k) very well. I'd say any G4 tower would be good enough, even one as low as 350 mhz, as long as its got >256MB of RAM.

[amnesiac1984]

Yeah, a G4 tower is your best bet voodoo. Beige G3 will be okay, but they were a little temperamental in regards to OS X. It took a long time to get it installed on mine. Also, I would probably not be running OS X on it if I had not put a g4/400 chip upgrade in it. You say you have an iPod, well you're gonna need a tower or newer iBook/iMac cos you need firewire ports.

Anyway, with a tower you can put a bucket load of RAM in it, it has an AGP slot (earlier than G4 towers do not) so if you liek it you can put a killer graphics card, even if its a 400 model you can put a dual 1.2 ghz processor card in it.

Make sure you don't get the yikes model, this was a short term model that did not have AGP graphics and is not as upgradeable.

[Edot]

I don't know if anyone has recommended this, but depending on where you live you could visit an Apple Store and try out a mac as long as you want for free! If that is your only worry about purchasing a new machine I would make sure you use one first. If you aren't near an Apple Store, I'm sure you could find someone with a mac that would let you play around with it. Good Luck!

[JJTiger1]

Originally posted by VoodooDaddy
ALL I want out of this mac is funtional internet, music manipulation with iTunes(I have an iPod), use of digital photo management, and the occasional use of photoshop. That is ALL I want.
-snip-
And on that note...can someone please explain the different os'es to me. Whats the difference between 10, 10.1, 10.1.5, 10.2, Jaguar, OS X, etc.... Which one is the one I would want???

iPod mothership, PhotoShop, Internet: A cheap Blue & White G3 tower can do that all day long. The B&W has all of the proper connectors built in.
=-=
OS-10.anything is OS-X. The capital "X" in "OS-X" stands for the number ten, lower-case "x" is a revision number. 10.2.6 is the current version of Mac OS X. 10.2 is also known as Jaguar, 10.2.x is an update to Jaguar. The name "Jaguar" helps tech-ies know that you are current.

The Jaguar Installer CD's have all of the programs you need, except PhotoShop and Scanner drivers. Many cameras are supported by iPhoto.

iTunes 4 and iPod updaters are free updater downloads.
=-=
Any OS with a number smaller than 10.2.6 is an older OS.

You want to start with 10.2, even if you have to buy the Jaguar Installer CD-set from the Apple Store. Then you want to update to 10.2.6 by downloading the combo updater from Apple.com. The 10.2.6 combo updater includes all of the previous updaters. It's a huge file, 86 meg.

The physical Apple Store will let you bring in your Mac, and use the store's hi-speed T-1 internet connection to download those really big files. They will provide the monitor and USB keyboard & USB mouse. Call ahead for advice about bringing in an old ADB (round plug) keyboard and mouse.

No time limit on the connection. I downloaded updates to Illustrator, PhotoShop, and everything too big for dial-up. I was there for three hours.
=-=
The Blue & White tower can run 10.2.6. The Blue & White can also boot to OS 9.2.2, or use 9.2.2 as Classic for older Mac applications. 9.2.2 is the last version of the old-fashioned MacOS, hence "Classic".

When you buy the Blue & White, make sure that the original CD's are included.
=-=
The Blue & White tower can be upgraded with all kinds of hardware, if you want to. Depends on your pocketbook.

I do recommend that you add as many cheap PC-100 ram chips as you can afford. The Blue & White can take 4 chips. Total: 1028 meg. 512 meg is enough.

What Apple doen't tell you:
iPod support: a 30 gig iPod needs to be supported by a computer with a 60 gig hard drive. Two music CD's can take more than 1 gig of space on a hard drive. Do the math: two blank CD's can hold 1500meg of data files.

And PhotoShop files are never small.

Consider an 80-120 gig 7200 RPM buffered hard drive. You can get one at any computer store. Yes, the B&W uses ATA hard drives, just like a PC.

And the Blue & White is at the low-end of your price range.
-
JJ