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MacRumors
Jan 18, 2007, 10:34 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

According to published reports on the internet, Apple has seeded a new release of Leopard (Seed 9A343) to developers tonight. The last version of Leopard (3A321) was seeded (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/12/20061213003836.shtml) December 13th, 2006.

Apple actually has itemized a few of changes to Leopard from the last seed, including:

- HIToolbox provides new HIRect/Point/Shape-based Window Manager API for resolution independence compatibility
- Tab support in Terminal
- Terminal now lets you save a multi-window configurations through workspaces which are available through the "Terminal" menu.
- QuickLook APIs have been updated

According to Apple, Leopard is coming "spring 2007".



Silentwave
Jan 18, 2007, 10:37 PM
Each seed brings us closer to perfection :rolleyes:

Actually, tabs in Terminal sounds cool. Maybe they'll think about putting them in FINDER too :D

Perhaps they're saving that for 10.5 build 9A365

P-Worm
Jan 18, 2007, 10:38 PM
Is it just me, or do these pointed out features, seem to be drawing our attention from something big? Either that or there are going to be a lot of dissappointed people when 10.5 is revealed. What average person wants tabbed terminal windows when the terminal is hardly used in the first place?

P-Worm

mrkramer
Jan 18, 2007, 10:39 PM
So does anyone know how stable it is now?

jericho53
Jan 18, 2007, 10:50 PM
Is it just me, or do these pointed out features, seem to be drawing our attention from something big? Either that or there are going to be a lot of dissappointed people when 10.5 is revealed. What average person wants tabbed terminal windows when the terminal is hardly used in the first place?

P-Worm

Exactly, tabbed terminal. Who cares?

BlueRevolution
Jan 18, 2007, 10:51 PM
Is it just me, or do these pointed out features, seem to be drawing our attention from something big? Either that or there are going to be a lot of dissappointed people when 10.5 is revealed. What average person wants tabbed terminal windows when the terminal is hardly used in the first place?

P-Worm

I use it. Not multiple sessions or anything, but I use it.

I do agree though. Seriously underwhelming feature list. When do we get to see the new UI? :D

shrimpdesign
Jan 18, 2007, 10:52 PM
Exactly, tabbed terminal. Who cares?

It's not like Apple is marketing it as a big feature.

There are still big top secret features yet to be releaved with Leopard. All the little stuff is getting updated in the developer preview, like QuickLook and tabbed terminal.

Daveway
Jan 18, 2007, 10:55 PM
With each build I grown more weary of how awesome the shipping version will be. How amazing can these features be if they don't require developers to adapt their software. For instance, if Apple were to completely revamp the UI like many are expecting, wouldn't Apple have to seed out the development package for it? So i don't see a radically new UI in the works for that reason.

I'm thinking these new features will simply be new programs that simply sit on top of Leopard. Not so exciting (as dashboard, etc.) IMHO.:(

Xander562
Jan 18, 2007, 10:57 PM
=There are still big top secret features yet to be releaved with Leopard.

Lets hopes so, This'll be my first OSX release where i'd actually be excited for, (before i was never really into macs) and I better be blown away by it.

Chaszmyr
Jan 18, 2007, 11:06 PM
While the seeds help them test things, they are seeded to developers so developers can develop. The features they point out are things useful for developers to know about.

bignumbers
Jan 18, 2007, 11:06 PM
There are some pretty serious upgrades within the innards of Leopard. They might be waiting to get those API's stable, then release some fancy stuff based on those API's.

Developers will go to town with 10.5. You'll see a whole slew of really wacky animated interfaces for sure. To what benefit, we'll have to wait and see.

oceanmonster
Jan 18, 2007, 11:07 PM
Does anyone think that apple is hiding the new UI and keeping it out of the developer builds?

ricksbrain
Jan 18, 2007, 11:08 PM
Choosing to be excited is far more entertaining.

Rocketman
Jan 18, 2007, 11:11 PM
10.x releases tend to have pretty major stability issues related to the secret features. I would wait for 10.5.1 to do an install.

Also what is the very first day of Spring 2007 technically?

Rocketman

ChrisA
Jan 18, 2007, 11:13 PM
Is it just me, or do these pointed out features, seem to be drawing our attention from something big? Either that or there are going to be a lot of dissappointed people when 10.5 is revealed. What average person wants tabbed terminal windows when the terminal is hardly used in the first place?

P-Worm

I was just going to comment "Wow Tabs in Terminal -- Something I'll actually use" and then I saw your comment. I use this feature a lot (as in like 8 hours a day) in Linux.

You'd be surprised how many users are coming to Mac OX from UNIX backgrounds.

Marlor
Jan 18, 2007, 11:13 PM
I really miss tabbed terminals. I used to use them in Linux all the time, and hate the mess of terminal windows that I get with OS X.

These are developer-related features of course. The big new surprises for Leopard aren't going to be in the dev builds, otherwise they would be leaked within a heartbeat.

Stridder44
Jan 18, 2007, 11:16 PM
...I would wait for 10.5.1 to do an install.


Is the smartest thing I've read so far in this thread. Early adopters (developers aside), have fun. I'm waiting for 10.5.1 or 2 to get out first before I make the jump. I'm not gonna lie tho, I'm giddy like a schoolgirl for Leopard.

bousozoku
Jan 18, 2007, 11:20 PM
The lack of information is either one of the following:

an attempt to keep big features safe from implementation elsewhere
a lack of features
a very delayed project schedule


I hope it's just that they're moving slowly.

The tabs in Terminal sound good to me. It'll be one place that I could use window management.

uanightswimmer
Jan 18, 2007, 11:22 PM
For those of you who want a multi-tab terminal, try iTerm.

Linksgolfer84
Jan 18, 2007, 11:22 PM
Does anyone think that apple is hiding the new UI and keeping it out of the developer builds?

There's no chance that this release will have a "new" UI. The thought is completely ridiculous. Just look at how minor that UI changes have been since 10.0. Apple said to expect more "features," not a new look.

The next overhaul to the UI will not go under the name OSX

reckless_0001
Jan 18, 2007, 11:23 PM
Actually, I use Terminal about ten times or more a day at work. For ssh and other oddities. :p yay! tabs, for separate connections. :cool:

mduser63
Jan 18, 2007, 11:28 PM
Another frequent Terminal user here. If I'm using Terminal (which is nearly every day), I usually have multiple windows open, so tabs in Terminal is a very welcome feature.

Still, I'd like to hear more about the "top-secret" features in Leopard, and am also hoping for some semi-major UI changes.

iJon
Jan 18, 2007, 11:31 PM
I remember when I was popping that 10.0 disc in the computer and using OS X. It was absolutely beautiful and useless at the same time. Hope they show us the new features soon.

jon

tuartboy
Jan 18, 2007, 11:32 PM
Exactly, tabbed terminal. Who cares?

Meeeee.

I live in iTerm.

crispoe
Jan 18, 2007, 11:33 PM
It takes a long time to certify drivers that come in HP, Dell, Sony, and Lenovo laptops.

blad3z
Jan 18, 2007, 11:33 PM
'well...if u look at it..everything that has been seeded has been told to the public whats in it etc. and we've seen the pics of Leopard and so on. so high chances that everything that is gonna make this worth buying is not in any dev updates. and you know apple is aiming to make consumers switch to apple so im thinking that well, this is gonna be the one OS that is gonna kick Vista's ass for sure. i mean vista has copied everything so far of the previous OS, now apple will knock them out with something that Vista and no other OS has. i mean that is likely isnt it?Like steve said... 'the first 30 years was just the begining' this year we are gonna i bet you we are gonna be spending most of what we make on apple :P

jmsait19
Jan 18, 2007, 11:35 PM
Is the smartest thing I've read so far in this thread...

if every post stating people are waiting for rev b is considered "the smartest post of the thread" then we have a quite a bit of brainpower floating about on this board.:p



There's no chance that this release will have a "new" UI. The thought is completely ridiculous. Just look at how minor that UI changes have been since 10.0. Apple said to expect more "features," not a new look.

The next overhaul to the UI will not go under the name OSX

i wouldn't go that far

the upgrade from OS9 to OSX was quite a bit more than just a UI change...

jmsait19
Jan 18, 2007, 11:37 PM
'well...if u look at it..everything that has been seeded has been told to the public whats in it etc. and we've seen the pics of Leopard and so on. so high chances that everything that is gonna make this worth buying is not in any dev updates. and you know apple is aiming to make consumers switch to apple so im thinking that well, this is gonna be the one OS that is gonna kick Vista's ass for sure. i mean vista has copied everything so far of the previous OS, now apple will knock them out with something that Vista and no other OS has. i mean that is likely isnt it?Like steve said... 'the first 30 years was just the begining' this year we are gonna i bet you we are gonna be spending most of what we make on apple :P

and by allowing vista to come out first microsoft can't have anymore "delays" to copy the new features... i'm truly excited.

Chef Medeski
Jan 18, 2007, 11:45 PM
and by allowing vista to come out first microsoft can't have anymore "delays" to copy the new features... i'm truly excited.
And thats the dumbest comment of this thread. Features take time to develop, its not like ohhh I saw Spotlight, Ill remake it in 5 days.



The whole copy thing is rubbish. Everybody including Apple copies from independent develepors and Linux. Wheres the problem? Whatever gets me the best product.

Stridder44
Jan 18, 2007, 11:46 PM
if every post stating people are waiting for rev b is considered "the smartest post of the thread" then we have a quite a bit of brainpower floating about on this board.:p

Haha this is true. However, not everyone's gonna wait. I'm really adapting the "wait for rev. b" theory into almost anything electronic. I think you can even apply the theory for buying cars. But naturally, it's just a theory...

Object-X
Jan 18, 2007, 11:48 PM
Oh, just in time for the Leopard Tech talk I'm attending tomorrow morning. I wonder if they will pass it out while I'm there? Guess I'll find out.

Oh, and to the poster asking if it's stable, it's always been stable, but the previous Leopard releases are not complete; super secret stuff I'm sure.

Stridder44
Jan 18, 2007, 11:50 PM
and by allowing vista to come out first microsoft can't have anymore "delays" to copy the new features... i'm truly excited.


and my dog craps rainbows

I'm pretty sure Microsoft could give a rip less that Apple's tryin to "hide" their new OS. I mean MAYBE they are keeping some tabs, but really now I'm sure Microsoft has enough on it's plate to not be paranoid about what their competitor of 4.7% marketshare is up to.

Chef Medeski
Jan 18, 2007, 11:51 PM
LOL and my dog craps rainbows

I'm pretty sure Microsoft could give a rip less that Apple's tryin to "hide" their new OS. I mean MAYBE they are keeping some tabs, but really now I'm sure Microsoft has enough on it's plate to not be paranoid about what their competitor of 4.7% marketshare is up to.

Hear Hear.

egdiroh
Jan 18, 2007, 11:56 PM
PI think some people are not getting that those are just the changes in the last month.

I also think that some people are forgetting that these are developer releases and not actual betas. Anything shiney and new that isn't core to the OS, probablty has been stripped out, with the exception of developer tools. Terminal is a developer tool and it's one of the apps whose revisions are seeing the light of day, I wonder if there is some correlation there.

Also I'm another person who uses terminal. We're more numerous then you think.

Some_Big_Spoon
Jan 18, 2007, 11:56 PM
We all think that. The question is, are we all right? Or will this be just an incremental update? Things are pointing to new UI, but who knows? It's such a Frankenstein in terms of look and feel that if they just threw the new black Java app look into it, it'd just be another sewn on mis matched limb.

Does anyone think that apple is hiding the new UI and keeping it out of the developer builds?

TheBobcat
Jan 19, 2007, 12:00 AM
Uh, I'm not sure what everyone means by new UI, but from the look of Apple's recent stuff it seems to me that the Aqua's days are numbered. Look around, black shiny glass and reflections seems to dominate. iPhone has it, iTunes has it, the OS X Leopard logo has it, and your sister has it. (Sorry, couldn't resist).

Anywho, one could argue that the black shiny glass already appears in other apps to some degree, but I get the feeling that Leopard will look a little different. Not a fundamentally different UI, but I would say a refresh is quite in order.

Even at that, a refreshed look and the announced features wouldn't sell me on a $129. Let's hope Leopard doesn't bellyflop right after Vista ships, that would sure suck.

SiliconAddict
Jan 19, 2007, 12:09 AM
Behold the top secret feature in Leopard......Tabs in terminal. :p

commonpeople
Jan 19, 2007, 12:11 AM
For those of you who want a multi-tab terminal, try iTerm.

Thanks- that's pretty cool! I wasn't aware of this program before- but I'm using it now. Much better than terminal.

starwxrwx
Jan 19, 2007, 12:12 AM
How will developers integrate their apps into the new UI? Or will it simply be a case of the default colours of windows/scroll bars etc simply changing when the program is loaded under Leopard (if it has a new-look UI) ?

MrCrowbar
Jan 19, 2007, 12:24 AM
Oh, just in time for the Leopard Tech talk I'm attending tomorrow morning. I wonder if they will pass it out while I'm there? Guess I'll find out.

Oh, and to the poster asking if it's stable, it's always been stable, but the previous Leopard releases are not complete; super secret stuff I'm sure.

Hehe, let us know how it went. The one I am going to is the 24th in New York.

dashiel
Jan 19, 2007, 12:24 AM
There's no chance that this release will have a "new" UI. The thought is completely ridiculous. Just look at how minor that UI changes have been since 10.0. Apple said to expect more "features," not a new look.

The next overhaul to the UI will not go under the name OSX

the thought is not completely ridiculous. apple updates the the GUI every 6-7 years.

'84 mac os1
'91 mac os 7
'98 mac os 8
'01 mac os x

it usually happens when the OS has made so many incremental changes that things are a bit out of hand. they go back clean things up and standardize.

throw in the fact that they're moving to a fully resolution independent display system, the upgraded UI hints in itunes (always a precursor to OS level changes), the absence of both ilife and any mention of leopard at macworld and finally the likelihood that leopard will have to last 3 or more years. that all points to a new GUI. steve won't be able to let a 6 year old GUI go for another 2-4 years.

i'm not 100% sold, but i think the delay in ilife/iwork is because it will require/look like leopard's new UI. i'm guessing that for those app developers that utilize the standard controls will get the GUI update for free (apple is really good about that, follow their rules and you're ahead of the game, see xcode/intel transistion). those that are creating custom stuff that looks like aqua are going to be screwed (e.g. microsoft), those that are creating totally custom UIs (e.g. delicious monster) will be fine, but may choose to upgrade the look to feel more integrated. and let's not forget some top tier developers like wil shipley may very well have the new GUI in their builds. certain developers have hinted at things they're not allowed to talk about so who knows. i could totally see apple giving a few very public devs access.

ultimately, i think steve wants to avoid the deluge of copy-cat skins that will appear hours after he demos the GUI as happened with aqua. my bet -- we'll see a final 10.5 demoed 2-3 weeks prior to shipping.

SeaFox
Jan 19, 2007, 12:27 AM
Exactly, tabbed terminal. Who cares?
Quite a bit of the Slashdot crowd actually.

richard4339
Jan 19, 2007, 12:27 AM
10.x releases tend to have pretty major stability issues related to the secret features. I would wait for 10.5.1 to do an install.

Also what is the very first day of Spring 2007 technically?

Rocketman

Spring begins (in America) on Sunday, March 20.
Spring ends (in America) on June 20, 2007.

Catfish_Man
Jan 19, 2007, 12:30 AM
Speaking as a developer, I can safely say that most of the posters in this thread have no idea what most of the changes between 9A321 and 9A343 are, nor would they much care*. The radically new UI idea is pretty damn unlikely** too. The waiting for Vista idea is also ludicrous**. Oh, and the "10.5 prereleases have all been stable" thing was wrong too.


*no, they weren't all in the rather sparse changelog Apple included, and no, most of them weren't new features any user will ever see directly.

**no inside confirmation on either of these, just common sense and a basic understanding of how OSs and various third party apps work.

SiliconAddict
Jan 19, 2007, 12:36 AM
and my dog craps rainbows

I'm pretty sure Microsoft could give a rip less that Apple's tryin to "hide" their new OS. I mean MAYBE they are keeping some tabs, but really now I'm sure Microsoft has enough on it's plate to not be paranoid about what their competitor of 4.7% marketshare is up to.

Amen. And my cat drops solid gold turds into the litterbox.
Even if Microsoft did give a flying rainbow the OS was effectively finished in November. WWDC was in what? Aug? Anything that can be designed and implemented into an OS within 3-5 months from a drop dead start date is a trivial enhancement, or rushed and would be about as stable as the Titanic, to begin with. I mean seriously imagine MS trying to implement Expose in 3 months with a deadline that manufacturers chomping at the bit for.
Think about it a second. Microsoft has had so many delays, so many setbacks. Hell they dumped their core source code (XP) and started the project virtually from scratch with Server 2003's source a year into the project. Only a handful of Mac users would have an ego big enough to think that MS would even care at this point as they hurtle towards a looming deadline (Take 3).
Its like a submarine going down....leak in the engine room, fire in the torpedo room, and flooding on the bridge. But all of a sudden the captain orders everyone to start painting the galley a lovely olive green because it looks nice. Ain't going to happen.....

Sorry I just finished watching the season ender of Seaquest DSV; and watched Abyss and Hunt for Red October last night. :D

MrCrowbar
Jan 19, 2007, 12:39 AM
Behold the top secret feature in Leopard......Tabs in terminal. :p

OMG, totally worth the money if you ask me. I don't use the GUI in OSX anyway, all so slow and you have to use the mouse. Text based interfaces are just so much better.

photosop blur -gaussian 2 5 2 picture.raw picture.psd

Way faster than getting through all those menus, isn't it? YOu know how a blus looks like, so why bother actually open the picture to see? :D :D :D :D ;)

I barely use terminal. Sometimes it opens itself if you run a java app and I used it once to resize partitions (you can do that since tiger. Disk utility rocks, too bad you can't get the feature from the gui).

If I wanted command line, I'd go linux all the way and copy updated packages every week for every little app I have that does exactly one thing, but there are so many application, they all start with K and I don't know what half of them actually do and why i would ever want to open them. Don't get me, wrong, it's awesome for servers, but it's not an interface I enjoy using.

Leopard will definitely have a "redesigned" menu bar, and the blue apple will look a little different, but I guess that's pretty much it. I actually like the colorful Traffic-light buttons on the windows. I wish there was a keyboard shortcut for the green one though. :rolleyes:

twoodcc
Jan 19, 2007, 12:48 AM
Each seed brings us closer to perfection :rolleyes:

Actually, tabs in Terminal sounds cool. Maybe they'll think about putting them in FINDER too :D

Perhaps they're saving that for 10.5 build 9A365

yes! we're getting closer....

jmsait19
Jan 19, 2007, 12:53 AM
and my dog craps rainbows

I'm pretty sure Microsoft could give a rip less that Apple's tryin to "hide" their new OS. I mean MAYBE they are keeping some tabs, but really now I'm sure Microsoft has enough on it's plate to not be paranoid about what their competitor of 4.7% marketshare is up to.


i agree... im not saying that microsoft is keeping tabs or anything. but it does seem that one company innovates a little more than the other. and of course after an item is out then each company will adopt th features as they become something of a standard.

and i wasn't trying to say that apple was purposefully delaying leopard's release... that's something a ten year old would do...

i also wasn't ripping on that guy for saying that.

but enough making excuses.

iMacZealot
Jan 19, 2007, 12:59 AM
I have a feeling we might see the end of brushed metal and the extension of the aluminum found in iTunes and Tiger Mail. I like that look a lot better than brushed metal. As for the gumdrops and scrollers, We might see them change back to iTunes 7, but I like the gumdrops. As for Lucida Grande, I hope it stays, and I think it will.

Black is just not good for a GUI. I think it's too hard to read text on. Sure, the iPhone is fine, but imagine EVERYTHING about your mac being black. It'd just be hard to read. I think the black here and there in iLife is okay.

It's rather evident that the aluminum look is in. They put it in Mail. They put it in iTunes. They're putting it in iChat. I can't remember whether or not they're putting it in Safari. But it's in iMovie, and iWeb. I think that's the change. Goodbye pinstripes (pretty much gone anyway) and brushed metal; hello aluminum!

RandomTox
Jan 19, 2007, 01:00 AM
It's not like Apple is marketing it as a big feature.

There are still big top secret features yet to be releaved with Leopard. All the little stuff is getting updated in the developer preview, like QuickLook and tabbed terminal.

Why are you so certain that there gonan be big top secret features in Leopard? Quite frankly, I no longer believe what Steve has promised us.

whenpaulsparks
Jan 19, 2007, 01:08 AM
Exactly, tabbed terminal. Who cares?

i guess you're not a rails (http://www.rubyonrails.org/) developer.

heisetax
Jan 19, 2007, 01:12 AM
I use it. Not multiple sessions or anything, but I use it.

I do agree though. Seriously underwhelming feature list. When do we get to see the new UI? :D



The Tabbed Terminal probably is the new UI. Maybe that is why Steve Jobs did not even give Mac OS 10.5 a single word.

Bill the TaxMan

SeaFox
Jan 19, 2007, 01:20 AM
I hate how apple keeps everything so secret. It makes me sick, I cant take this anymore.
What are you going to do?

[crickets chirping]

I thought so.

melodramatics... :rolleyes:

kildjean
Jan 19, 2007, 01:24 AM
I am new to the seasons in the USA. When does spring start and when does it end?

Kil

Hunabku
Jan 19, 2007, 01:26 AM
OK yes Apple secrecy can be a bit sickening. I think so many years of getting burned has turned stevo paranoid.

Even so, one has to wonder why apple is so fanatical about 10.5 secrecy given that they must have known the features could not make it into vista. I think most of it was more of a publicity thing - ie see how much vista looks/acts like os x, that is because we are the innovators.

In the end, perhaps a policy of withholding features as long as possible make sense - since there is always microsloths next OS which could incorporate 10.5 features - albiet 10 years from now.:rolleyes:

deadkenny
Jan 19, 2007, 01:30 AM
To me it is pretty clear that Leopard already has the features it needs for a revolutionary UI:

1.) OpenGL based UI (since the first version of OS X)
2.) CoreAnimation
3.) The support for resolution independent interfaces

So far this is nothing that Vista does not support - yes Microsoft is actually ahead here - but MS uses all the Power of Aero so far only to reimplement the Aqua UI plus some nifty 3D effects that Apple could implement without any problem.

But it clearly points the way to a new UI and by new I note only mean decorate the windows and buttons black.

bousozoku
Jan 19, 2007, 01:31 AM
The Tabbed Terminal probably is the new UI. Maybe that is why Steve Jobs did not even give Mac OS 10.5 a single word.

Bill the TaxMan

That's it and all the Terminal windows feature a black background with white text.

Hunabku
Jan 19, 2007, 01:37 AM
I am new to the seasons in the USA. When does spring start and when does it end?

Kil

You know its spring when the crickets start chirping.

It technically starts March 21st but since the time frame in question relates to an operating system release, it could extend all the way till June. However, Apple has been very impressive in meeting its OS and hardware deadlines, so I wouldn't be suprized if it came earlier rather than later.

projectle
Jan 19, 2007, 01:39 AM
Any idea what "MacBuddy" is?

There are a few references in the leaked Seed Notes.
- MacBuddy may not run after installation. Rebooting will launch MacBuddy
- Unable to restore from Time Machine backups created in MacBuddy

SeaFox
Jan 19, 2007, 01:55 AM
I am new to the seasons in the USA. When does spring start and when does it end?

Kil

It was on page 2 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=3266980&postcount=43) of this thread.

lorien
Jan 19, 2007, 02:01 AM
Any idea what "MacBuddy" is?

There are a few references in the leaked Seed Notes.
- MacBuddy may not run after installation. Rebooting will launch MacBuddy
- Unable to restore from Time Machine backups created in MacBuddy

MacBuddy was the code name for the application launched when a new Macintosh computer is used the first time. During the startup process, the user was prompted to enter his Internet connection information or signup for new access from EarthLink.
taken from: http://chrischandler.com/career/producthistory/buddy/

DMann
Jan 19, 2007, 03:08 AM
With each build I grown more weary of how awesome the shipping version will be. How amazing can these features be if they don't require developers to adapt their software. For instance, if Apple were to completely revamp the UI like many are expecting, wouldn't Apple have to seed out the development package for it? So i don't see a radically new UI in the works for that reason.

I'm thinking these new features will simply be new programs that simply sit on top of Leopard. Not so exciting (as dashboard, etc.) IMHO.:(

iPhone's interface is quite revealing;)

DMann
Jan 19, 2007, 03:11 AM
OK yes Apple secrecy can be a bit sickening. I think so many years of getting burned has turned stevo paranoid.

Even so, one has to wonder why apple is so fanatical about 10.5 secrecy given that they must have known the features could not make it into vista. I think most of it was more of a publicity thing - ie see how much vista looks/acts like os x, that is because we are the innovators.

In the end, perhaps a policy of withholding features as long as possible make sense - since there is always microsloths next OS which could incorporate 10.5 features - albiet 10 years from now.:rolleyes:

Core Animation furnishes unlimited possibilities for a complete OS
overhaul including a slick Finder and 3D resolution independent icons
and graphics. Check out Toast 8 for a mild preview of this...

ATG
Jan 19, 2007, 03:58 AM
I think the exciting features are going to be the features for the developers. It's going to be the 3rd party apps that make leopard. I think apple is running out of innovation :eek: ;)

jmsait19
Jan 19, 2007, 04:19 AM
Why are you so certain that there gonan be big top secret features in Leopard? Quite frankly, I no longer believe what Steve has promised us.

you'd think steve would be careful about his promises after the whole "3ghz in a year" ordeal...

Kelmon
Jan 19, 2007, 04:28 AM
Why are you so certain that there gonan be big top secret features in Leopard? Quite frankly, I no longer believe what Steve has promised us.

I'm with you on this one. Given the excuse given in August that they don't want to show all their cards yet and Microsoft shipping Vista last year I was really expecting to hear something more at MacWorld (during the keynote or otherwise). Since we had absolutely no news and, apparently, the shipping date hasn't changed it seems unlikely that anything substantially new will included to justify such a big slide in the original presentation. Of course, I could be completely wrong but the excuse provided seems to be bogus given that information about what was included in Tiger was known during the time when Microsoft, theoretically at least, could have "copied" the features into Vista.

I don't buy this either, although I'll still be buying a copy as soon as possible for the new developer tools.

4np
Jan 19, 2007, 06:29 AM
Excellent, tab support in terminal :) Now I don't have all these seperate windows when working in different shells :)

ppc_michael
Jan 19, 2007, 06:31 AM
I think we're all forgetting about The Apple Product Cycle (http://www.misterbg.org/AppleProductCycle/). ;)

dushkin
Jan 19, 2007, 06:32 AM
They're probably working on something big right now, which is why wo don't know what it is.

adrianblaine
Jan 19, 2007, 06:45 AM
I think we're all forgetting about The Apple Product Cycle (http://www.misterbg.org/AppleProductCycle/). ;)

Wow, sometimes this is so true!

oceanmonster
Jan 19, 2007, 07:10 AM
I think we're all forgetting about The Apple Product Cycle (http://www.misterbg.org/AppleProductCycle/). ;)

I wonder if that is how the iPhone story will turn out?

WilliamLondon
Jan 19, 2007, 07:21 AM
What average person wants tabbed terminal windows when the terminal is hardly used in the first place?

The only time I use it is when a DVD gets stuck in the drive and won't eject. I think I could forgo tabs, unless they plan to ship new machines with multiple drives having lots of problems ejecting their media. ;-)

Compile 'em all
Jan 19, 2007, 07:25 AM
Excellent, tab support in terminal :) Now I don't have all these seperate windows when working in different shells :)

You can use iterm (http://iterm.sourceforge.net/).

Queso
Jan 19, 2007, 07:29 AM
1.) OpenGL based UI (since the first version of OS X)
2.) CoreAnimation
3.) The support for resolution independent interfaces
We've already seen something that makes excellent use of these features, which over time could replace the WIMP GUI system we've all been using now for 20 years and which could be implemented in Leopard ready for the hardware to catch up with it.

A touch-screen gesture interface as seen on the iPhone. It makes enormous sense for Apple not to have advertised that at WWDC, and does make me wonder what other hardware surprises we have coming.

Evangelion
Jan 19, 2007, 07:35 AM
Exactly, tabbed terminal. Who cares?

Who cares? Um, the people who actually use the terminal extensively? Like those UNIX-guys?

dahacouk
Jan 19, 2007, 07:40 AM
I don't understand why no one's said it yet. If they are putting tabs in Terminal then I reckon that they'll be putting them EVERYWHERE!

Couple this with what Safari 3 will be able to do with tabs like "consolidate all open windows into one, making tabs for each existing page in a single Safari browser window" or the other way around. Or a bit of both with pre-defined tab-groups. Or even smart-tab-groups. An eco-system for tabs.

Now take this to all applications. Mail and iTunes are in dire need of tabs (and also bread-crumbs for that matter!). I can just see Steve saying "consolidate... separate... consolidate... separate... boom... simple!" as he flips between all tabs in one window and then all tabs separated into a window each. Just like Expose. But it wont be Expose. It'll be better. You'll be able to touch them!...

Cheers Daniel

skwert
Jan 19, 2007, 07:48 AM
can february please be considered spring?

skwert
Jan 19, 2007, 07:49 AM
Who cares? Um, the people who actually use the terminal extensively? Like those UNIX-guys?

and don't forget about the trickle down effect. more efficient programing means cooler stuff for us :)

Chundles
Jan 19, 2007, 07:50 AM
can february please be considered spring?

God no. If February was only spring then that would mean we're coming into summer and seeing as how it's hot as hell here now I'd probably be installing thousands of air conditioners and trucking in some snow from Antarctica.

February is Summer here, winter up there.

kildjean
Jan 19, 2007, 07:50 AM
Spring begins (in America) on Sunday, March 20.
Spring ends (in America) on June 20, 2007.

So since the iPhone is set to be released on June, we could be seeing a June release for leopard? ugh thats 6 months away.... :(

CrazyWingman
Jan 19, 2007, 07:51 AM
Exactly, tabbed terminal. Who cares?

I'll toss in my hat too - I use tabbed terminal every day ... in linux (kde or fluxbox as wm). I've found it absolutely necessary for concurrently connecting to three machines plus my own. There's way too much clutter otherwise.

I will be interested to see what Apple's implementation feels like, though. While I use the fluxbox and kde implementations to get around clutter, they're not a perfect solution. It does feel like a break from human interface guidelines to have two different ways to get to two different kinds of "windows" (Alt-Tab to the Terminal window, then some other combination to change tabs), and I do catch myself getting confused sometimes. *shrug*

kildjean
Jan 19, 2007, 07:54 AM
It was on page 2 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=3266980&postcount=43) of this thread.

weird when i posted my quetion there was no page two... :/

adamfilip
Jan 19, 2007, 08:13 AM
I really hope Leopard
has a completely revamped print dialog

something more similar to how windows has theres.
I find the mac Print box difficult to use. in that its trying to be overly simplistic

Sell my mac and escape the damn over and over again apple product cycle

even if you sell your mac.
you will still be interested in whats going to appear.
so really there is no way out

guzhogi
Jan 19, 2007, 08:18 AM
So since the iPhone is set to be released on June, we could be seeing a June release for leopard? ugh thats 6 months away.... :(

Not necesarily. Maybe it takes that long for the FCC to OK it and make enough for the 1st shipment. It might take a few months for the tens of thousands or however many they're going to ship in the 1st batch.

As for those people who say "why do we need a tabbed terminal?" or ask why people need a certain feature you wouldn't use: just because you wouldn't use a certain feature doesn't mean no one needs it. Most of you wouldn't have a need for a scalpel, but doctors performing surgeries might. So don't ask why certain features are added, or at least ask how they could be used in a respectful manner. I'm getting really POed by all of you being *******s.

stockscalper
Jan 19, 2007, 08:29 AM
Apple missed a big opportunity here. With the processor and memory they could have made this a mini tablet computer. It needs to be able to run Pages and Keynote. Pages can open Word docs and with the keyboard the iphone has it would be a great feature to be able to open a Word doc and make changes and email it back. There are competing PDA smartphones that run Powerpoint and allow you to put a Powerpoint file on then and plug them into a projector or laptop or even use the Smartphone screen to make a presentation. An Audiovox model comes to mind. The firepower is already built into the iphone, so why not use it. At $500 to 600 it is grossly over priced for what you get. I get as much functionality now out of my SLVR and it's much sleeker, has longer battery life and can be gotten for $99. I would pay $500 for the iphone if it would run Pages and Keynote but as it is currently configured, it is just an overpriced eye candy toy.

yodermk
Jan 19, 2007, 08:34 AM
I was just going to comment "Wow Tabs in Terminal -- Something I'll actually use" and then I saw your comment. I use this feature a lot (as in like 8 hours a day) in Linux.

You'd be surprised how many users are coming to Mac OX from UNIX backgrounds.

I agree with this. I'm excited about it. Linux is my primary desktop OS, and I regularly have some 8 tabs open in the KDE terminal. It was annoying that OS X didn't allow that. Bravo!

eenu
Jan 19, 2007, 08:43 AM
i agree... im not saying that microsoft is keeping tabs or anything. but it does seem that one company innovates a little more than the other. and of course after an item is out then each company will adopt th features as they become something of a standard.

and i wasn't trying to say that apple was purposefully delaying leopard's release... that's something a ten year old would do...

i also wasn't ripping on that guy for saying that.

but enough making excuses.

If we were having this discussion 5+ months ago i would have said it was entirely possible for MS to steal an idea from Apple, set back Vista release a few more months and maybe steal an idea or too. To be thinking that at this stage is insane!

They have openly marketed a release date and will not go back on that expcept in the event of a natural disaster or the end of the world......not only that but the disks will be being pressed and they will have already started being shipped to mass warehouses around the world!

Hardly think MS is in the position to steal ideas let alone implement them now even if they were pee'n their pants wanting to!

(btw - the rant wasn't at the guy i quoted :) )

pilotError
Jan 19, 2007, 08:48 AM
WooHoo Tabbed Terminal Windows! :D

Not exciting but useful none the less.

I think the biggest Leopard preview was the iPhone interface.

I can certainly see them making a Tablet PC now. I always thought not having access to the keyboard was an issue in the older Tablets. The new interface certainly opens up the possibilities for that now. The Mac Tablet that was shown at MacWorld by ??? certainly drew alot of attention. Apple marketing was quick to point out the declining desktop sales and the overwhelming laptop sales.

Why are so many of the OS X users in denial about their Unix Roots? Embrace it, its what makes your Mac Great! LOL

Look for Microsoft to go Unix based in the next major release. I'm sure thats why their cozying up to Novell of late.

Fuchal
Jan 19, 2007, 08:49 AM
I really hope Leopard
has a completely revamped print dialog

something more similar to how windows has theres.
I find the mac Print box difficult to use. in that its trying to be overly simplistic

It does.

shigzeo
Jan 19, 2007, 08:56 AM
And thats the dumbest comment of this thread. Features take time to develop, its not like ohhh I saw Spotlight, Ill remake it in 5 days.



The whole copy thing is rubbish. Everybody including Apple copies from independent develepors and Linux. Wheres the problem? Whatever gets me the best product.

i had no idea you were here too. i will be going out tonight to business toronto and those ety will be accompanying me! how are the um2 doing?

rams
Jan 19, 2007, 09:07 AM
c'mon this is just boring. we as macusers need at least "one" killerfeature that bashes every vista user away. that's why we buy an os! not for work, not for fun, only to bash microsoft! Yeah, that's the motivation! We are the fellowships of the steve!*




*this post is 100% nosence and ironic.

Mgkwho
Jan 19, 2007, 09:27 AM
With each build I grown more weary of how awesome the shipping version will be. How amazing can these features be if they don't require developers to adapt their software. ...

[cough]Successful Intel Transistion[cough]

Apple didn't tell even Adobe about their porting move, and as pointed out by their reponse on 'slow MacPro' systems at their Financials Conference on Wednesday, they realize that it is most likely due to CS2 not available for Mac on Intel.

Therefore, Apple has shown in the past that they can do amazing, radical things without telling developers. Unless you and I have a different definition on the success of the intel transistion.

-=|Mgkwho

sfwalter
Jan 19, 2007, 09:34 AM
Exactly, tabbed terminal. Who cares?

Well there's a large group of OS X users that are developers (like me) who use the Terminal quite often. So tabs is a big deal, in the past you had to resort to 3rd party apps like iTerm.

But you're right for the average consumer, they will never touch the Terminal. But for those of use who its a welcomed enhancement.

MartinAyla
Jan 19, 2007, 09:35 AM
So, is DVD Player 5.0 (HD DVD, BluRay support) included in this latest seed?

richard4339
Jan 19, 2007, 09:36 AM
I am new to the seasons in the USA. When does spring start and when does it end?

Kil

Spring begins (in America) on Sunday, March 20.
Spring ends (in America) on June 20, 2007.

Already been asked and answered in this thread. Reading works wonders :p

killmoms
Jan 19, 2007, 10:07 AM
*this post is 100% nosence and ironic.

No, it's sarcastic. It's not ironic.

ManchesterTrix
Jan 19, 2007, 10:09 AM
I really miss tabbed terminals. I used to use them in Linux all the time, and hate the mess of terminal windows that I get with OS X.

These are developer-related features of course. The big new surprises for Leopard aren't going to be in the dev builds, otherwise they would be leaked within a heartbeat.

Use iTerm. Much more featured than terminal.app

CptnJustc
Jan 19, 2007, 10:48 AM
If we were having this discussion 5+ months ago i would have said it was entirely possible for MS to steal an idea from Apple, set back Vista release a few more months and maybe steal an idea or too. To be thinking that at this stage is insane!


Just to play devil's advocate a bit: While MS can't be thinking about adding whizbang new features and filesystems and so forth at this stage, they could be thinking of their marketing. Knowing exactly what they're going up against would make it easier for their marketing teams to develop counter-strategies, and avoid getting blindsided by some fancypants new features in the competition.

Though I imagine they may well already know....

kalisphoenix
Jan 19, 2007, 11:18 AM
No, it's sarcastic. It's not ironic.

Let's not be pedantic. Sarcasm relies on verbal irony.

Digitalclips
Jan 19, 2007, 12:22 PM
Does anyone think that apple is hiding the new UI and keeping it out of the developer builds?

They may be doing that. Apple's main concern might be for existing apps to work 'as is' in Leopard even though there maybe a new UI. Developers might then be given a conversion kit once the cat is out of the bag .. oh no.. did I really say that! ;)

crees!
Jan 19, 2007, 12:26 PM
Is it just me, or do these pointed out features, seem to be drawing our attention from something big? Either that or there are going to be a lot of dissappointed people when 10.5 is revealed. What average person wants tabbed terminal windows when the terminal is hardly used in the first place?

P-Worm

I'll just say it now so you won't be let down later. 10.5 won't include anything more than what's already been around the rumor mill.

ultimately, i think steve wants to avoid the deluge of copy-cat skins that will appear hours after he demos the GUI as happened with aqua. my bet -- we'll see a final 10.5 demoed 2-3 weeks prior to shipping.

And all signs point to WWDC.

rdrr
Jan 19, 2007, 12:43 PM
Thanks- that's pretty cool! I wasn't aware of this program before- but I'm using it now. Much better than terminal.


One of my favorite features of iTerm, is the ability to drag off a tab and it be comes a new iTerm window. Plus you can take a standalone iTerm window and merge it with another creating a tab. I hope that Apple borrows this... :cool:

CJD2112
Jan 19, 2007, 12:45 PM
And all signs point to WWDC.

When is the next one?

Sharkus
Jan 19, 2007, 01:09 PM
So WWDC is in spring this year then? :D

I'd expect the Top Secret stuff to be revealed mid March, and the release date annouced at that point to, which will proably be mid April. This would give developers time to change things, should this be required. I doubt anything major "under the hood" wise is changing from now until release as it would seriously impact developers making products compatible with Leopard.

MrCrowbar
Jan 19, 2007, 01:16 PM
When is the next one?

June... :mad:

coffey7
Jan 19, 2007, 01:28 PM
Is the smartest thing I've read so far in this thread. Early adopters (developers aside), have fun. I'm waiting for 10.5.1 or 2 to get out first before I make the jump. I'm not gonna lie tho, I'm giddy like a schoolgirl for Leopard.


I JUST WATCHED YOUR VIDEO LINK. DANG, I KNEW THOSE PEOPLE WERE CRAZY.

daftna
Jan 19, 2007, 01:59 PM
I like tabs but what I would really like to see in the terminal app is ANSI that is displayed correctly and not missing colors.

shawnce
Jan 19, 2007, 02:45 PM
June... :mad:

Actually the date of WWDC 2007 has not yet been announced by Apple.

WWDC 2006 took place the second week of August 2006 and was officially announced March 7th 2006, five months before the event. WWDC 2005 took place the second week June 2005 and was announced on February 15th 2005, a little under 4 months before the event.

It has been rumored that WWDC 2007 will be the second week of June 2007 which is a little less then 5 months away now... we shall see.

June has been the more common time for WWDC over the las few years.

tortoise
Jan 19, 2007, 04:21 PM
What average person wants tabbed terminal windows when the terminal is hardly used in the first place?

A lot of people use the terminal extensively. A rather substantial chunk of Mac marketshare growth is people who use OSX as a Unix front-end. The *majority* of people I know who use OSX come from the Linux/Unix world and will make good use of this feature. Much like virtual desktops, which are also insanely useful and common on Unix. So maybe you don't have a use for it, but I don't complain when they add useless point-n-clicky doodads that serve no constructive purpose for me either. Obviously you are neither the only market nor target market for this feature.

On any given day, I usually have as many terminals open as GUI apps, not because I love shells but because I need them as a practical matter. Having a better terminal application would be much appreciated.

coolchan
Jan 19, 2007, 04:53 PM
Exactly, tabbed terminal. Who cares?

You probably realised now that many people do care.

If it's something that you don't use, it doesn't mean others aren't using it.
I use it to access Linux machines (iTerm too).

I bet all the developers are happy.

What average person wants tabbed terminal windows when the terminal is hardly used in the first place?

Your answer is right there! Average person! Like you (maybe).
That's what I like about OS X. There is stuff for the average joe, and beneath it all there is stuff for more advanced users. I don't want OS X to be dumbed down.

elppa
Jan 19, 2007, 05:55 PM
It has been rumored that WWDC 2006 will be the second week of June 2007 which is a little less then 5 months away now... we shall see.

That's quite a trick.

I wonder how they'll manage that :)

Mr. Amiga500
Jan 19, 2007, 06:43 PM
and my dog craps rainbows


It's funny you should say that. My dog once ate an entire box of crayons (64 colours!) and he actually did crap rainbows. (not joking)

Now that I think of it, that horrible mixture of bright colours in the giant pile of crap somehow reminds me of the horrible mixture of bright colours in the giant pile of crap that is Windows XP.

MrCrowbar
Jan 19, 2007, 07:12 PM
Now that I think of it, that horrible mixture of bright colours in the giant pile of crap somehow reminds me of the horrible mixture of bright colours in the giant pile of crap that is Windows XP.

I'm picturing the windows login screen with a photo of the "rainbow" above the loading bar. Ever seen vista? The Desktop Backgrounds are nice, but everything else is kinda overdone. Where XP was childish, Vista is... too glassy. Luckily, you can make it looks like old school win95.

barnaby
Jan 19, 2007, 07:17 PM
10.x releases tend to have pretty major stability issues related to the secret features. I would wait for 10.5.1 to do an install.

Also what is the very first day of Spring 2007 technically?

Rocketman

Better question: What is the last?

OK yes Apple secrecy can be a bit sickening. I think so many years of getting burned has turned stevo paranoid.

Even so, one has to wonder why apple is so fanatical about 10.5 secrecy given that they must have known the features could not make it into vista. I think most of it was more of a publicity thing - ie see how much vista looks/acts like os x, that is because we are the innovators.

In the end, perhaps a policy of withholding features as long as possible make sense - since there is always microsloths next OS which could incorporate 10.5 features - albiet 10 years from now.:rolleyes:

Simple: announcing selling features after Vista is released and hype has died down a bit puts OS X as "newer" in the minds of the people. Let MS rant about how cool their OS is and then be blown down by the few wildcards Apple still has its sleeve. After the iPhone, i'm fully expecting a new UI to pop it's head into Leopard.

ppnkg
Jan 19, 2007, 07:45 PM
Just to play devil's advocate a bit: While MS can't be thinking about adding whizbang new features and filesystems and so forth at this stage, they could be thinking of their marketing. Knowing exactly what they're going up against would make it easier for their marketing teams to develop counter-strategies, and avoid getting blindsided by some fancypants new features in the competition.

Though I imagine they may well already know....

Does MS really need to have counter-strategies? Or any marketing strategy at all?

Peace
Jan 19, 2007, 07:47 PM
Personally I don't think there is any super secret stuff in Leopard.

Hype.Hype.Hype.

RDF :)

barnaby
Jan 19, 2007, 07:56 PM
Uh, I'm not sure what everyone means by new UI, but from the look of Apple's recent stuff it seems to me that the Aqua's days are numbered. Look around, black shiny glass and reflections seems to dominate. iPhone has it, iTunes has it, the OS X Leopard logo has it, and your sister has it. (Sorry, couldn't resist).

Anywho, one could argue that the black shiny glass already appears in other apps to some degree, but I get the feeling that Leopard will look a little different. Not a fundamentally different UI, but I would say a refresh is quite in order.

Even at that, a refreshed look and the announced features wouldn't sell me on a $129. Let's hope Leopard doesn't bellyflop right after Vista ships, that would sure suck.

There seems to be a lot of talk about this resolution independent UI. I can just see Steve showing it off. He drags the corner of the window and rather than the customary stretching, we get some weird form of stretching and scaling that has us scratching our heads and saying "why didn't I think of that?"

I don't think this will be a new UI so much in terms of appearance as functionality. Support for vector-based UI's rather than bitmap-based. There are a lot of cool little things you could do with that. Especially when mixed with core animation, I think this release of Leopard will make Vista look dated.

Stella
Jan 19, 2007, 08:11 PM
Does MS really need to have counter-strategies? Or any marketing strategy at all?

I expect they ( MS ) look with interesting at OSX, the same Apple do with new releases of Windows.

But when you have a strangle hold and no ( effective ) competition - microsoft aren't going to be too concerned with OSX 10.5.

Microsoft know damned well that Apple aren't going to take significant market share away from windows.

MS would be probably more concerned with Firefox v IE than they are with Apple.

bankshot
Jan 20, 2007, 03:25 AM
For all the unix heads excited about tabbed Terminal, I've been using something much better every day for about 14 years. It's a little program called screen (http://www.gnu.org/software/screen/), and it comes preinstalled on OS X. Type man screen to get started.

With screen, I get all the benefits of tabs, plus:

Easy keyboard shortcuts to switch to different screens. No moving your hand to that pesky mouse way over there. Huge time saver.
Detach from a running session and reattach to it later. Unless Apple was really forward-thinking in their implementation of Terminal tabs, I'll bet it doesn't do this.
Reattach to the same session from a different place. Say you start a session on your machine at home, then go to a friend's house. If you're a real unix geek, you allow ssh access, so you ssh in from your friend's. From there, you reattach to your existing screen session and continue right where you left off, as if you were still sitting at home.
Attach to the same session from multiple places simultaneously. This is useful not only for remote attaching, but also when you're sitting at the machine. Say you have two "windows" in your session and you really need to see them both at the same time. Depending on how the tabs are implemented, a tabbed terminal program may not allow this. No problem for screen. Just open a second Terminal window, attach to your screen session, and navigate to the other screen "window". Easy.

I've honestly never understood all the hype around tabbed terminal programs the last several years. Doesn't oanybody know about screen? It's so much more flexible in my opinion. I couldn't live without it.

SpaceJello
Jan 20, 2007, 06:49 AM
Apple missed a big opportunity here. With the processor and memory they could have made this a mini tablet computer. It needs to be able to run Pages and Keynote. Pages can open Word docs and with the keyboard the iphone has it would be a great feature to be able to open a Word doc and make changes and email it back. There are competing PDA smartphones that run Powerpoint and allow you to put a Powerpoint file on then and plug them into a projector or laptop or even use the Smartphone screen to make a presentation. An Audiovox model comes to mind. The firepower is already built into the iphone, so why not use it. At $500 to 600 it is grossly over priced for what you get. I get as much functionality now out of my SLVR and it's much sleeker, has longer battery life and can be gotten for $99. I would pay $500 for the iphone if it would run Pages and Keynote but as it is currently configured, it is just an overpriced eye candy toy.

I said it once before somewhere, but I will say it again. I am sure iLife and iWork 07 will have a companion on the iphone. We have not seen the powers of the iPhone yet. What we saw is only the beginning, especially if you look at the interface, those widgets are really programs, almost a desktop, I am sure the iWork's interface will be like the web browser, how you zoom in and out.

But I am still skeptical about any new UI for leopard... anyone see the new DVD player UI? its quite sleek and flat. I hope apple does something more that line.

liberty4all
Jan 20, 2007, 11:33 AM
So did they FINALLY add return receipt features to Mail.app???!

Object-X
Jan 20, 2007, 01:33 PM
Hehe, let us know how it went. The one I am going to is the 24th in New York.

Tech Talk was great. Nice for Apple to encourage developers. Core Animation is going to be awsome! I expect you will see it in subtle but significant ways.

One thing I took away from this was that Leopard is not anywhere near being done. Also, don't expect a radical change in the UI. There will be refinements, but it won't be substantially different as per previous rumors. They did show some things for the Finder and Spotlight I probably shouldn't say anything about. But, it was super nice.

That being said, I do believe that Apple is going to extend the UI in various ways that will be application specific. Time Machine is a perfect example. One way this will be accomplished is full screen mode like in iPhoto. Add to that Spaces and you get an idea how your desktop experiance is going to change -- for the better.

One thing I found interesting, as a web developer, was how much Python kept coming up in the discussions. Though, Apple is improving Cocoa, it's clear to me that Objective-C is the language of choice for OS X applications. There are bindings for Python and Ruby, but they seemed to be using Python for various things.

Speaking of Python and Ruby, it is possible that Apple will add a scripting editor for coding languages like Ruby and Python. I don't think they have decided yet, or it may come later as part of a yet announced technology.

The Wiki server in OS X server is driven by Python and JavaScript. I had heard another rumor that Apple was working on some sort of Web based technology for writing web sites. Nothing was said about this, but if true, I would expect it will use Python. Again, this is just my impression, so I'm probably wrong. :rolleyes:

I would love to see Apple do this however. I like Ruby on Rails, but after seeing what they are doing with their Wiki, interface-wise, the thought that they might release a framework to create an Ajax like interfaces, similar to what I saw, with simplicity and ease would be awesome. WebObjects just isn't going anywhere. Since it's Java based, I suspect Apple is going to leave it as a back end technology.

But when you see how awesome these new UI designs are that run on OS X, there is going to be a desire to adapt this to the web. I don't know, I'm just rambling, but that Wiki looked really cool and was clearly taking desing cues from other OS X applications.

Adobe has Flex, Microsoft has .Net 3.0, there are a number of open source Ajax technologies, so what is Apple bringing to the web space? They didn't say, but one can hope. Perhaps some "pro" iWeb technology.

MacsRgr8
Jan 20, 2007, 02:51 PM
I'll just say it now so you won't be let down later. 10.5 won't include anything more than what's already been around the rumor mill.

Steve did mention that there were more features in Leopard, which they want to keep secret.
I won't say Steve never exaggerates, nor "polishes the truth" a little, but there probably will be two or three "tadaaa!!" features which will be demoed probably a few weeks before the GM. If not, Steve will be quoted everywhere about these secret features which never made into Leopard, making it look really bad.


And all signs point to WWDC.

And that date would be those few weeks before the GM

marsonist
Jan 20, 2007, 07:09 PM
So did they FINALLY add return receipt features to Mail.app???!

The Problem with return receipts is that they rely on the receiver's e-mail program to send them. As of yet there is no industry standard on return receipts. Apple could impliment something, but it would either have to be a reverse engineered version of what Outlook impliments (which is dangerous) or would only work if someone else with Mail receives the message.

Apple doesn't like technologies that could fail beyond the average user's scope of understanding. Why didn't I get that return receipt from Aunt Milly? Did she not read it? Is she running a new version of Outlook? Is she checking her mail with Thunderbird or a webmail program? These are questions that require the user to know to much and ruin any sort of functionality.

Outlook could impliment something like this on the corperate side because 90% of businesses use Exchange servers... Apple doesn't have that luxury

catracho
Jan 20, 2007, 11:01 PM
Could be possible an apple event about Leopard near Vista's release (January 30)?

Why don't show the "big surprises" now?

iMacZealot
Jan 20, 2007, 11:48 PM
Could be possible an apple event about Leopard near Vista's release (January 30)?

Why don't show the "big surprises" now?

Because that looks like "Hey! Look @ me too!" Showing them a few weeks later makes people say "Now why did I spend $$$ on Vista & putting my PC under the knife???"

maverick808
Jan 21, 2007, 12:05 AM
Because that looks like "Hey! Look @ me too!" Showing them a few weeks later makes people say "Now why did I spend $$$ on Vista & putting my PC under the knife???"

That doesn't make sense. You are saying that Apple's plan is to wait until users have invested money in Vista, and possibly new PC hardware, before trying to entice them with Leopard's features.

truz
Jan 21, 2007, 12:48 AM
I have 8 terminal windows open at a time on a daily basis, tabbed terminal windows would be very handy. I would also like to store connection commands to remote servers as it becomes a pain typing 8 different passwords for each server. I would like a 1 password security feature tho to unlock stored passwords for root connections. Just me thinking tho :)


Is it just me, or do these pointed out features, seem to be drawing our attention from something big? Either that or there are going to be a lot of dissappointed people when 10.5 is revealed. What average person wants tabbed terminal windows when the terminal is hardly used in the first place?

P-Worm

matticus008
Jan 21, 2007, 12:57 AM
For instance, if Apple were to completely revamp the UI like many are expecting, wouldn't Apple have to seed out the development package for it? So i don't see a radically new UI in the works for that reason.
For what? If an app uses a custom UI already, it wouldn't be affected by system changes. If it used default Interface Builder and system UI components, then it would automatically update when those resources were replaced. It's likely that there would be a few odd glitches in some of the smaller shareware apps--but that'll be the case regardless, because those smaller developers don't pay to have preview releases of software in the first place. Releasing a new UI is one of the easiest major changes you can make.

Does anyone think that apple is hiding the new UI and keeping it out of the developer builds?
If it exists at all, that's exactly what they're doing. Apple's pretty good about maximizing their 'wow' factor--and that means not letting things trickle out anticlimactically. They drop a few hints and cause a stir, crazy Macheads fly off the reservation with speculation, and then the final product appears with a bang. Within hours, the excitement high will wear off and it'll be attacked and derided for a while before the pendulum settles back to normal.
How will developers integrate their apps into the new UI? Or will it simply be a case of the default colours of windows/scroll bars etc simply changing when the program is loaded under Leopard (if it has a new-look UI) ?
Developers won't have to do anything unless they use a custom UI, in which case they'll have to decide whether or not to Leopard-ize their products.

One easy option would be to include a toggle setting for each app. If it doesn't display properly in the new UI, users could change it to display with Aqua widgets instead. All they have to do is keep the old bitmaps around.

oncost
Jan 21, 2007, 01:29 PM
A new build of Mac OS X will be fun as open-source. :)

//been waiting for mac source :)

MDMac
Jan 21, 2007, 05:03 PM
I hardly think they'd unveil all the goodies before it's released. Apple is making such a stink about Leopard, I don't see a reason for them NOT to keep it under wraps as much as possible.

I like surprises and hope this release will contain many. :)

zblaxberg
Jan 22, 2007, 11:53 AM
we're gettin closer and closer to the release but I was at the :apple: store the other day and all they can say is spring so i guess we gotta just sit tight and wait....besides don't you think it'll be worth it?

solace
Jan 22, 2007, 04:21 PM
I like tabs but what I would really like to see in the terminal app is ANSI that is displayed correctly and not missing colors.

http://www.culater.net/software/TerminalColors/TerminalColors.php

i found that a few months back, so nice :)

but i've gone back to iTerm as of late

plarusa
Jan 22, 2007, 08:25 PM
Hope they show us the new features soon.

jon
These secret features everyone is expecting may not amount to much in the end. I can't imagine a major OS feature being introduced without a preview to the developpers. I think we pretty much know the full Leopard feature set,

Spaces
Time Machine
Resolution independant UI
A few new frameworks
Objective C 3.0
Updated developpers tools
Perhaps an updated finder

I think the current OS usability is near optimum, I don't see a great need for major additions.

Nym
Jan 23, 2007, 11:27 AM
These secret features everyone is expecting may not amount to much in the end. I can't imagine a major OS feature being introduced without a preview to the developpers. I think we pretty much know the full Leopard feature set,

Spaces
Time Machine
Resolution independant UI
A few new frameworks
Objective C 3.0
Updated developpers tools
Perhaps an updated finder

I think the current OS usability is near optimum, I don't see a great need for major additions.


And I also thought that a Phone always needed a keyboard :D
Apple is going to make the best OSX release so far, I for one believe in a more refined GUI and user experience, especially through core animation, like fliping the windows backwards (like we do to configure widgets), for all I care Apple is very good at keeping secrets, just like many of you thought that the iPhone wasn't going to make an appearance at MWSF and it did. Leopard has top secret features, and it's worthless to think about what these features are because if you can imagine them then Apple's designers and engineers have got to be at least 5 years ahead, and usually are. Don't think about it, just wait, it's a great year for being a Mac user. My 2 cents :)

dushkin
Jan 28, 2007, 02:36 PM
I think the current OS usability is near optimum, I don't see a great need for major additions.

Sure, that's what I thought back I don't know how long ago when I was using WMI on my Linux box. The thing is that after a while one of three things happens:

1. Your demands change, and you end up seeing just how bad the situation actually is.
2. You overcome the shock and end up seeing how bad it actually is.
3. You use someone else's <whatever> and end up seeing that it's by far superior.

So no, it's not done at all.

I think they still need to add a way to drag windows from all sides, possibly old-school modifier style (hold down a modifier and drag the window to resize). A proper option cut in finder would be great, etc.