Obama Smeared As Former ‘Madrassa’ Student, Possible Covert Muslim Extremist

[zimv20]

think progress (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/01/19/fox-obama-madrassa/)


This morning, Fox News featured a segment highlighting a right-wing report (http://www.insightmag.com/) that Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) attended an Islamic “madrassa” school as a 6-year-old child.

Fox & Friends host Steve Doocy pointed out that madrassas are “financed by Saudis” and “teach this Wahhabism which pretty much hates us,” then declared, “The big question is: was that on the curriculum back then?” Later, a caller to the show questioned whether Obama’s schooling means that “maybe he doesn’t consider terrorists the enemy.” Fox anchor Brian Kilmeade responded, “Well, we’ll see about that.”

The Fox hosts failed to correct the false claim that Obama is Muslim. One caller, referring to Obama, said, “I think a Muslim would be fine in the presidency, better than Hillary. At least you know what the Muslims are up to.” Anchor Gretchen Carlson responded, “We want to be clear, too, that this isn’t all Muslims, of course, we would only be concerned about the kind that want to blow us up.” Obama is Christian, a member of Chicago’s Trinity United Church of Christ since 1988.

(more)

there's a video on that page. unreal.

[kalisphoenix]

Gee. Some people are starting to sound a bit frightened.

Go Barack!

[Dont Hurt Me]

There will be lots more mud and spin from these guys, any Democrat that wins the nomination will be smeared it doesnt matter who because thats the tactics. Just throw mud,throw mud, throw mud. Look at what they did to Kerry, A decorated war Hero with medals vs Bush who dodged Nam and had missing service from the Texas air force. Thats draft dodging Rove's tactics of spin.

[Thomas Veil]

I sense the creepy hand of Mr. Rove here. This is right out of his playbook. If you have several potential opponents, pick the weakest one. Then smear the others so you (hopefully) knock them out of the running, leaving you with the opponent you do want to run against.

[aquajet]

Listening to that video made me slightly sick to my stomach. That's all can say.

[obeygiant]

Actually it IS true that Obama once WAS a muslim. His father was a muslim (who left at 2 years old) and his step father was a non-practicing muslim. He stopped being one when he started his studies at university of hawaii. We all know the rules about islam and converting to another religion.

[IJ Reilly]

Oh, please tell us. Please?










:rolleyes:

[Ugg]

Actually it IS true that Obama once WAS a muslim. His father was a muslim (who left at 2 years old) and his step father was a non-practicing muslim. He stopped being one when he started his studies at university of hawaii. We all know the rules about islam and converting to another religion.

You know the rules. Verifiable links please.

[aquajet]

You know the rules. Verifiable links please.

But didn't that guy from Fox News say he was a Muslim? That's good enough for me.





:rolleyes:

[leekohler]

You know the rules. Verifiable links please.

You won't see any links. The reality is this: The conservatives are scared as hell of Obama. Just a case in point: I went back home to Ohio recently. My parents (total religious conservatives) asked me what I thought of Obama. I told them I liked the guy a lot. They said they liked him too and wanted him to run. I just about fell down in shock! This coming from people who voted for Bush both times.

Actually it IS true that Obama once WAS a muslim. His father was a muslim (who left at 2 years old) and his step father was a non-practicing muslim. He stopped being one when he started his studies at university of hawaii. We all know the rules about islam and converting to another religion.

obeygiant, I still have seen nothing from you that would make me think you are anything but a conservative. (remember our previous conversation?) Just remember, in the US you can be whatever religion you want. We don't have penalties for switching. Your wackiness is showing.

[Queso]

All this says to me is that whilst Obama is now a practising Christian, he has an idea of how the American Government's policies towards the Middle East are perceived by Muslims. Electing him would bring Middle Eastern countries on board to tackle the bloodbath formerly known as Iraq and deprive the extremists of their argument that all Americans hate Islam.

Obama is beginning to look like the solution to a lot of problems.

[highres]

I sense the creepy hand of Mr. Rove here. This is right out of his playbook. If you have several potential opponents, pick the weakest one. Then smear the others so you (hopefully) knock them out of the running, leaving you with the opponent you do want to run against.

Not so much to do with Rove but Rupert Murdoch. All policies at Fox including daily directives or specific issues to hammer on come directly from Murdoch, he even specifies carefully worded verbage that is to be used over and over during the course of daily broadcasts.

[Blue Velvet]

Are you now or have you ever been a muslim?

[leekohler]

Are you now or have you ever been a muslim?

Oh sweetie, it's been McCarthy since 9/11. The Islamic school around the corner from me was smashed into by a car after a few weeks. Now that space is a physical therapy center. :rolleyes:

[highres]

Pretty clear from the examples below just how skewed FOX News is and who is calling the shots on a daily basis. Copies of memos from FOX News Senior Vice President, News Editorial John Moody at the direction of Murdoch that dictate very specific verbage to be used or emphasized by "news"casters throughout the day on FOX News.

Moody on the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal:

[T]he pictures from Abu Graeb [sic] prison are disturbing. They have rightly provoked outrage. Today we have a picture -- aired on Al Arabiya -- of an American hostage being held with a scarf over his eyes, clearly against his will. Who's outraged on his behalf? It is important that we keep the Abu Graeb [sic] situation in perspective
(5/5/04).
Moody on the war in Iraq:

As is often the case, the real news is [sic] Iraq is being obscured by temporary tragedy. The creation of a defense ministry, which will be run by Iraqis, is a major step forward in the country's redevelopment. Let's look at that, as well as the deaths of a US soldier in a roadside bombing (3/25/04).

Into Fallujah: It's called Operation Vigilant Resolve and it began Monday morning (NY time) with the US and Iraqi military surrounding Fallujah. We will cover this hour by hour today, explaining repeatedly why it is happening. It won't be long before some people start to decry the use of "excessive force". We won't be among that group (4/4/04).

The events in Iraq Tuesday are going to be the top story, unless and until something else (or worse) happens. Err on the side of doing too much Iraq rather than not enough. Do not fall into the easy trap of mourning the loss of US lives and asking out loud why are we there? The US is in Iraq to help a country brutalized for 30 years protect the gains made by Operation Iraqi Freedom and set it on the path to democracy. Some people in Iraq don't want that to happen. That is why American GIs are dying. And what we should remind our viewers (4/6/04).

More (http://mediamatters.org/items/200407140002)

[leekohler]

Pretty clear from the examples below just how skewed FOX News is and who is calling the shots on a daily basis. Copies of memos from FOX News Senior Vice President, News Editorial John Moody at the direction of Murdoch that dictate very specific verbage to be used or emphasized by "news"casters throughout the day on FOX News.



More (http://mediamatters.org/items/200407140002)

What does this have to do with Barack Obama?

[FleurDuMal]

Does it matter if he was a muslim? The best thing for the US (and the world) at the moment would be a president with a muslim heritage. :confused:

[highres]

What does this have to do with Barack Obama?

This morning, Fox News featured a segment highlighting a right-wing report that Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) attended an Islamic “madrassa” school as a 6-year-old child.

Fox & Friends host Steve Doocy pointed out that madrassas are “financed by Saudis” and “teach this Wahhabism which pretty much hates us,” then declared, “The big question is: was that on the curriculum back then?” Later, a caller to the show questioned whether Obama’s schooling means that “maybe he doesn’t consider terrorists the enemy.” Fox anchor Brian Kilmeade responded, “Well, we’ll see about that.”

The Fox hosts failed to correct the false claim that Obama is Muslim. One caller, referring to Obama, said, “I think a Muslim would be fine in the presidency, better than Hillary. At least you know what the Muslims are up to.” Anchor Gretchen Carlson responded, “We want to be clear, too, that this isn’t all Muslims, of course, we would only be concerned about the kind that want to blow us up.” Obama is Christian, a member of Chicago’s Trinity United Church of Christ since 1988.

In the original quoted news article there are numerous references to FOX News and how they skew "news" so I replied with some specific examples of how they do this.

Also I am replying to Thomas Veils post hinting that Rove is behind this recent smear campaign against Obama whereas I think it is because of direct involvement by Rupert Murdoch and not so much Rove.

[highres]

Oh sweetie, it's been McCarthy since 9/11. The Islamic school around the corner from me was smashed into by a car after a few weeks. Now that space is a physical therapy center. :rolleyes:

Also, not to just be argumentative or snide in any way but what does this have to do with Obama? ;)

[leekohler]

Also, not to just be argumentative or snide in any way but what does this have to do with Obama? ;)

Different replies to different posts. :)

[BoyBach]

Well, his middle name is Hussein, so he must be a terrorist/simpathiser.

:rolleyes:

[mactastic]

Does it matter if he was a muslim?
Of course it does, because we all know what "those muslims" are up to. :rolleyes:

The best thing for the US (and the world) at the moment would be a president with a muslim heritage. :confused:
Ah, but the best thing for the US isn't necessarily the same as the best thing for specific politicians, or political parties.

[Thomas Veil]

Also I am replying to Thomas Veils post hinting that Rove is behind this recent smear campaign against Obama whereas I think it is because of direct involvement by Rupert Murdoch and not so much Rove.You may be right, but at least the practice is credited with Rove, even if Murdoch is carrying it out. Whether this is being done independently or in cooperation with Rove's office is another story. We really have no way of knowing right now.

[iSaint]

I, too, saw something on Fox news that implicated Hillary Clinton in this smearing of Obama. However, I can find no link! :confused:

[obeygiant]

You know the rules. Verifiable links please.

you could just type "obama muslim" in to google but here you go

http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1511
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0804/0804obamafaith.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14961215/site/newsweek/
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
http://www.brookesnews.com/070801obama.html

[obeygiant]

obeygiant, I still have seen nothing from you that would make me think you are anything but a conservative. (remember our previous conversation?) Just remember, in the US you can be whatever religion you want. We don't have penalties for switching. Your wackiness is showing.

Well, i've also said that Obama has a good chance to become president. Searching for facts doesnt make one a lefty or a righty, so why would I be "wacky" for saying he WAS a muslim. Actually I'm surprised everyone on this board doesnt HATE him for being a Christian. Those dog-gone wacky Christians screw things up far worse than any muslim according to the people here.

[obeygiant]

you could just type "obama muslim" in to google but here you go

http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1511
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0804/0804obamafaith.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14961215/site/newsweek/
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
http://www.brookesnews.com/070801obama.html

In case your finger has trouble clicking...

One of the most entertaining opportunities that will emerge in 2007 will be using Barack Obama to fight Islamofascism. He is the product of a black Moslem from Kenya, Barrack Hussein Obama, and a white atheist from Kansas, Shirley Ann Dunham, who met at the University of Hawaii in Honolulu. That is why his middle name is the same as Saddam’s: Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. His first name is taken from the Islamic term in Arabic for “blessed,” baraka, used in the Koran.

His father deserted the family when Barack Jr. was two and returned to Kenya. His mother then married another Moslem studying at UH, Lolo Soetoro from Indonesia. He moved with his mother and stepfather to Jakarta when he was six, where he attended a Moslem medressa (religious school). That makes him a Moslem. There is no mention of this in the chapter of his book, The Audacity of Hope, where he discusses his religion, My Spiritual Journey (reprinted in Time Magazine). Obama claims he is a Christian, that he and his wife Michelle are members of the United Church of Christ.

The opportunity in this is not accusing him of being a “closet Moslem.” It requires taking him at his word that he has become a Christian — for that means he is an apostate. There is no dispute among either ancient or modern Moslem scholars that under Islamic law, a murtadd, “one who turns his back on Islam,” an apostate, must be put to death. Irtidad, apostasy, is committing treason against God, and traitors deserve to be killed.

Should Obama deny he ever was a Moslem, it will compound the problem in the eyes of Moslems. He was born of a Moslem father, raised by a Moslem stepfather, and received his first education at a Moslem school. That he subsequently went to a Catholic school in Jakarta before living with his mother’s parents back in Honolulu makes no difference. In the eyes of Moslems, he originally was a Moslem. How can he not be in those eyes, with a Koranic first name and his middle name that of the grandson of Mohammed? For him to become a Christian means he is, for them, a murtadd, an apostate.

Which provides the perfect opportunity for an enterprising journalist to ask him at a press conference if he is: 1. Afraid of Moslem assassination attempts as punishment for being in Islamic eyes an apostate? 2. Willing to publicly call upon all Moslems around the world to renounce such punishment and declare instead that Moslems are fully free to convert to another religion?

The odds are high that he will answer no to the first and yes to the second. As an oily politician, he will try to squirm out of a clear definitive yes with no wiggle room. But it should not be difficult for a smart journalist to get him to agree without reservation that Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states...

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion. This right includes freedom to change his religion or belief.

...applies to Muslims

Once Obama condemns the Moslem tradition of death for apostasy, then he can be asked:

The Koran famously quotes Allah as saying in chapter (sura) 2, verse 256 that there should be ‘no compulsion in religion.' Yet numerous sayings of Mohammed known as hadith which form the basis of Islamic Sharia law quote Mohammed as saying ‘If a Moslem discards his religion, kill him.' So are you telling Moslems that Allah was right but Mohammed was misquoted, and their Sharia law tradition on apostasy is wrong?

You can see how much fun there is to be had with this. Again, the key is taking Obama at his word that he is a Christian and not secretly a Moslem. No accusations necessary. The point is that Moslems view him as first a Moslem, not that he does. If done right with honest, straightforward, and persistent questioning Obama can serve as a quite useful anti-islamofascist tool.

[Dont Hurt Me]

You may be right, but at least the practice is credited with Rove, even if Murdoch is carrying it out. Whether this is being done independently or in cooperation with Rove's office is another story. We really have no way of knowing right now.Fox is a hoot, Fair & Balance:eek: You can be sure if "They" have to say Fair & Balance a 100 times a day its anything but. Its like Ford saying quality is Job #1 , You better look hard when companys boast something because its allways to make up for something they are not.

[Ugg]

Actually it IS true that Obama once WAS a muslim. His father was a muslim (who left at 2 years old) and his step father was a non-practicing muslim. He stopped being one when he started his studies at university of hawaii. We all know the rules about islam and converting to another religion.


According to the links you posted, it's not clear that he ever practiced Islam. His father was a secularist, having given up on religion after he left home. The only clear fact is that Barack's grandfather was a practicing Muslim.

Nowhere does it say that he stopped being a Muslim only when he started at the U of H. Since his mother was also an atheist, it's very hard to believe that he was steeped in a religion that would have been foreign to her.

No, we don't know the rules. Please enlighten us.

Your attempt at branding him as an extremist Muslim is pretty lame. It's true that he would have been exposed to Islam up until the time he was ten, but after that, he led a very middle class, white existence.

[obeygiant]

No, we don't know the rules. Please enlighten us.

Your attempt at branding him as an extremist Muslim is pretty lame. It's true that he would have been exposed to Islam up until the time he was ten, but after that, he led a very middle class, white existence.

You think I'm trying to brand him an extremist muslim? Thats not what I was doing.


If you dont know the "rules" regarding Islam and conversion to other religions just go back and read my posts. Just scroll up about half a page.

[IJ Reilly]

Obama must be a thinly disguised terrorist. He graduated from Harvard.

[IJ Reilly]

You think I'm trying to brand him an extremist muslim? Thats not what I was doing.

What are you doing? If not that, then think everyone would like to know.

[lord patton]

these political discussions suck. It's ****** obvious that obeygiant wasn't smearing anyone as a radical muslim.

It's ****** obvious that some idiots on Fox news couldn't be bothered with facts and decency.

And it's obvious that, even though it has nothing to do with Obama, Saudi funded madrassas are a BIG, BIG problem.

[IJ Reilly]

It's obvious that we don't need anyone telling us that our discussions here suck.

I've asked obeygiant what he's trying to say. If he has motives other than participating in a smear, then he has ample opportunity to explain himself.

[Lord Blackadder]

This is just ridiculous...Faux News at is worst (or best, depending where you stand).

Aside from the disingenuousnes of the "report", it's just sloppy journalsim.

[lord patton]

It's obvious that we don't need anyone telling us that our discussions here suck.

I've asked obeygiant what he's trying to say. If he has motives other than participating in a smear, then he has ample opportunity to explain himself.

If it's unclear what his purposes are, fine. Give him a chance to explain.

But even absent an explanation, interpreting his posts as smearing Obama is as dishonest and inflammatory as the Fox item Zim posted.

[aquajet]

If it's unclear what his purposes are, fine. Give him a chance to explain.

But even absent an explanation, interpreting his posts as smearing Obama is as dishonest and inflammatory as the Fox item Zim posted.

Stick around here long enough and you'll see that obeygiant has a history of bashing anything with the name "Islam" on it. Let's take a closer look:

Actually it IS true that Obama once WAS a muslim. His father was a muslim (who left at 2 years old) and his step father was a non-practicing muslim. He stopped being one when he started his studies at university of hawaii. We all know the rules about islam and converting to another religion.

And that's a fair observation. But what's the deal with the last sentence? Why is it relevent?

[mactastic]

So the extreme right's argument is going to be that we shouldn't elect or trust Obama because some extremist Muslims might possibly hate him and want to kill him?

That's funny, considering how popular Bush is amongst those same folks! :D

Or will it be that we can't trust him because he was once a Muslim, and might still secretly be one? :rolleyes:

[aquajet]

So the extreme right's argument is going to be that we shouldn't elect or trust Obama because some extremist Muslims might possibly hate him and want to kill him?

Or will it be that we can't trust him because he was once a Muslim, and might still secretly be one? :rolleyes:

That's the question of the day. I'm really wondering pretty hard about this.

[wmmk]

you could just type "obama muslim" in to google but here you go

http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1511
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0804/0804obamafaith.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14961215/site/newsweek/
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
http://www.brookesnews.com/070801obama.html

wow, 3 from conservative propoganda sites and one that completely goes against your claim. very nice...

the prejudice against Muslims in America sickens me...

[IJ Reilly]

So the extreme right's argument is going to be that we shouldn't elect or trust Obama because some extremist Muslims might possibly hate him and want to kill him?

If the history of these smear campaigns are any guide, it won't be an argument as such. The purpose will be to get the message out that Obama has Islam in his heritage and to generally amp up American's fear of Muslims. It's a simple act of cynical semantics:

Obama is Muslim.
Muslims are dangerous.
Obama is dangerous.

[kalisphoenix]

I went to a school for a while whose student body was 100% Navajo. (see http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/nm/other/395 ). It was soon after that I started hunting buffalo, drinking whiskey, and making pottery. My skin was permanently darkened by the experience.

I was also raised Jewish, and we all know the rules about what happens when you work on the Sabbath...

[pseudobrit]

If it's unclear what his purposes are, fine. Give him a chance to explain.

He's afraid to explain himself.

[obeygiant]

You know, I like Obama. He's a likeable and astute fellow.
But if he's going to run for president these questions are going to come up. With intense scrutiny of the press this issue will arise. I dont see anything wrong with researching the background of someone who wants to be the president.

[Lord Blackadder]

But what is the purpose behind these questions that are "com[ing] up"?

Are people questioning his loyalty (i.e his alleged Muslim links are traitorous)? I think that is ludicrous.

If not, what purpose does all this serve, other than the purile name-calling I belive it to be?

I haven't yet researched Obama to the point where I'd be ready to vote for or against him, but this "report" appears to be either disingenuous or just plain mean-spirited.

Not to mention the fact that this "report" grossly generalizes Madrassas in a shameful and ignorant manner.

[Ugg]

You know, I like Obama. He's a likeable and astute fellow.
But if he's going to run for president these questions are going to come up. With intense scrutiny of the press this issue will arise. I dont see anything wrong with researching the background of someone who wants to be the president.

Didn't gw find jesus at the bottom of a whiskey bottle? Shouldn't we have shown more scrutiny over his reasons for converting from worshipping Bacchus to worshipping some vengeful and wrathful god (one who seems to speak directly to gw)

The difference between the two is that Barack had no choice in his parents faith or lack thereof, gw chose Bacchus, there's a big difference.

[zimv20]

what purpose does all this serve, other than the purile name-calling I belive it to be?
it's the beginning of the smear / swiftboating campaign against him. i do think rove and other GOP parties are behind this, not (just) murdoch. the purpose is to sway the primaries such that sen clinton, not sen obama, gets the nomination.

i'm sure this is only round 1 of many. i'm only left to wonder: did they start off with the nastiest, or are they saving some even nastier stuff for later?

[Dont Hurt Me]

Like he was a coke user?

[highres]

it's the beginning of the smear / swiftboating campaign against him. i do think rove and other GOP parties are behind this, not (just) murdoch. the purpose is to sway the primaries such that sen clinton, not sen obama, gets the nomination.

i'm sure this is only round 1 of many. i'm only left to wonder: did they start off with the nastiest, or are they saving some even nastier stuff for later?

I think you're right, originally I had thought that Murdoch was acting autocratically and on his own because of his own political ideologies, huge ego and his opportunity to steer public opinion from the helm of his huge media empire.

However occasionally I will see a news blurb from someone on Capitol Hill with specific anti-Dem verbage and then see it repeated verbatim over and over by FOX News and their "news"casters. Too deliberate and organized to be mere coincidence.

Also in past footage of Murdoch I've seen pictures of him standing behind Republican presidents (Reagan, Bush Sr., etc.) when they were on the campaign trail or setting media policy in Washington.

[Blue Velvet]

i do think rove and other GOP parties are behind this, not (just) murdoch. the purpose is to sway the primaries such that sen clinton, not sen obama, gets the nomination.



When the story — such as it is — broke; it was being spun as originally emanating from the Clinton camp days before Hillary Clinton entered the race.

An investigation of Mr. Obama by political opponents within the Democratic Party ... sources said the background check, conducted by researchers connected to Senator Clinton, disclosed details of Mr. Obama's Muslim past. The sources said the Clinton camp concluded the Illinois Democrat concealed his prior Muslim faith and education.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/flash_4.html



On the January 19 editions of their radio programs, conservative talk show hosts Melanie Morgan, Lee Rodgers and Rush Limbaugh, as well as Fox News' John Gibson on the same day's edition of The Big Story, forwarded the accusation, originally published on the website InsightMag.com, that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) was responsible for spreading information about Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) -- specifically, that Obama "spent at least four years in a so-called Madrassa or Muslim seminary, in Indonesia." The article, bearing the headline "Hillary's team has questions about Obama's Muslim background," asserted that "researchers connected to Senator Clinton" disclosed the "details of Mr. Obama's Muslim past." Despite acknowledging near the end of his show that it "[d]oesn't seem" that "Hillary's fingerprints [are] on the story," Gibson said earlier in that program that "[t]he New York senator has reportedly outed Obama's madrassa past."

http://mediamatters.org/items/200701200003


No matter what the truth of the matter is, someone's running scared. ;)

[zimv20]

When the story — such as it is — broke; it was being spun as originally emanating from the Clinton camp days before Hillary Clinton entered the race.
hmmm.... interesting. it's plausible. it's also plausible that rove et al planned the blame-placing, too.

argh, i don't know who to trust!

[Queso]

argh, i don't know who to trust!
That's an easy one to answer.

None of the above.

[mactastic]

InsightMag would seem to have some excellent sources inside the Hillary camp if this is true. Or they're making up where the info came from.

[obeygiant]

Ok, this thread has taken a dramatic turn.

Now let me get this straight. Hillary Clinton, in competition with Barak Obama for the democratic presidential nominee, has outed Sen. Obama as being formally muslim?


She's got more guts than I thought she did... I like her.

[Lord Blackadder]

It's just too convenient for the far-right "news" outlets that are trumpeting this...I don't buy it, though I would not be totally shocked if it were true (i.e. coming from the Clinton camp).

[pseudobrit]

InsightMag would seem to have some excellent sources inside the Hillary camp if this is true. Or they're making up where the info came from.


wikipedia says:

The newsmagazine Insight (more fully, Insight on the News), is published by The Washington Times Corporation...

It was noted for providing additional funding to Paula Jones for her sexual harassment lawsuit against Bill Clinton, allowing the suit to continue after her own funding ran out.

The Moonies are behind it. That should be all you need to know.

[skunk]

How extremely convenient to be able to smear two for the price of one.

[BoyBach]

How extremely convenient to be able to smear two for the price of one.


It shows how ruthlessly efficient the Republican Partys 'political machine' can be.

[mactastic]

It shows how ruthlessly efficient the Republican Partys 'political machine' can be.
Funny that they're so efficient in running a business operation yet so inefficient at running government.

Guess that's what happens when you let people who hate goverment run government. I suppose the reverse would happen if you let the anti-globalists run ExxonMobile.

[obeygiant]

Hillary's team has questions about Obama's Muslim background


Are the American people ready for an elected president who was educated in a Madrassa as a young boy and has not been forthcoming about his Muslim heritage?

This is the question Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton’s camp is asking about Sen. Barack Obama.

An investigation of Mr. Obama by political opponents within the Democratic Party has discovered that Mr. Obama was raised as a Muslim by his stepfather in Indonesia. Sources close to the background check, which has not yet been released, said Mr. Obama, 45, spent at least four years in a so-called Madrassa, or Muslim seminary, in Indonesia.

"He was a Muslim, but he concealed it," the source said. "His opponents within the Democrats hope this will become a major issue in the campaign."

When contacted by Insight, Mr. Obama’s press secretary said he would consult with “his boss� and call back. He did not.

Sources said the background check, conducted by researchers connected to Senator Clinton, disclosed details of Mr. Obama's Muslim past. The sources said the Clinton camp concluded the Illinois Democrat concealed his prior Muslim faith and education.

"The background investigation will provide major ammunition to his opponents," the source said. "The idea is to show Obama as deceptive."

In two best-selling autobiographiesâ€""The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream" and "Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance"â€"Mr. Obama, born in Honolulu where his parents met, mentions but does not expand on his Muslim background, alluding only to his attendance at a "predominantly Muslim school."

The sources said the young Obama was given the name Hussein by his Muslim father, which the Illinois Democrat rarely uses in public.

His father was black and came from Kenya. Mr. Obama’s mother, the daughter of a farmer, came from Wichita, Kansas. Mr. Obama's parents divorced when he was two years old. His father returned to Kenya.

Later, Mr. Obama's mother married an Indonesian student and the family moved to Jakarta. Mr. Obama returned to Hawaii when he was 10 to live with his maternal grandparents.

The sources said the background check concerned Mr. Obama's years in Jakarta. In Indonesia, the young Obama was enrolled in a Madrassa and was raised and educated as a Muslim. Although Indonesia is regarded as a moderate Muslim state, the U.S. intelligence community has determined that today most of these schools are financed by the Saudi Arabian government and they teach a Wahhabi doctrine that denies the rights of non-Muslims.

Although the background check has not confirmed that the specific Madrassa Mr. Obama attended was espousing Wahhabism, the sources said his Democratic opponents believe this to be the caseâ€"and are seeking to prove it. The sources said the opponents are searching for evidence that Mr. Obama is still a Muslim or has ties to Islam.

Mr. Obama attends services at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago’s South Side. However, he is not known to be a regular parishioner.

"Obama's education began a life-long relationship with Islam as a faith and Muslims as a community," the source said. "This has been a relationship that contains numerous question marks."

The sources said Mr. Obama spent at least four years in a Muslim school in Indonesia. They said when Mr. Obama was 10, his mother and her second husband separated. She and her son returned to Hawaii.

"Then the official biography begins," the source said. "Obama never returned to Kenya to see relatives or family until it became politically expedient."

In both of his autobiographies, Mr. Obama characterizes himself as a Christianâ€"although he describes his upbringing as mostly secular.

In “The Audacity of Hope,� Mr. Obama says, "I was not raised in a religious household." He describes his mother as secular, but says she had copies of the Bible, the Koran and the Bhagavad Gita in their home.

Mr. Obama says his father was "raised a Muslim, but by the time he met my mother he was a confirmed atheist...." Mr. Obama also describes his father as largely absent from his life. He says his Indonesian stepfather was "skeptical" about religion and "saw religion as not particularly useful in the practical business of making one's way in the world ...."

In the book, Mr. Obama briefly addresses his education in Indonesia. "During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables."

Mr. Obama graduated from Columbia University and Harvard Law School; he became the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review. He later settled in Chicago, joined a law firm and began attending and helping local churches.

Mr. Obama is married to Michelle Robinson and they have two daughters, Malia and Sasha. In 1996, he was elected to the Illinois state Senate. Eight years later, he became a U.S. senator from Illinois.

The sources said Ms. Clinton regards Mr. Obama as her most formidable opponent and the biggest obstacle to the Democratic Party’s 2008 presidential nomination. They said Ms. Clinton has been angered by Mr. Obama's efforts to tap her supporters for donations.

In late 2006, when the Illinois senator demonstrated his intention to run for president, the Clinton campaign ordered a background check on Mr. Obama, the sources said. Earlier this week, Mr. Obama established an exploratory committee, the first step toward a formal race.



The attack on Obama came from another democrat. How interesting.

[Queso]

The attack on Obama came from another democrat. How interesting.
"Hillary's team has questions about Obama's Muslim background"

Typing that phrase (the title of the article) into Google brings up a list of sources that could be labelled, shall we say, Partisan :rolleyes:

Link (http://www.google.com/search?q=Hillary's%20team%20has%20questions%20about%20Obama's%20Muslim%20background&sourceid=mozilla2&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

[skunk]

The attack on Obama came from another democrat. How interesting.How interesting that none of these "sources" is named, verified or linked to.

[pseudobrit]

The attack on Obama came from another democrat. How interesting.

You know the rules.

Source, please.

[skunk]

Clearly women and Muslims are equally terrifying.

[mactastic]

The attack on Obama came from another democrat. How interesting.
Assuming this is true, how is it "how interesting"? Is it any more "interesting" than Bushco sowing stories about McCain's bi-racial daughter in South Carolina?

Righties sure seem to think so. But of course, that would make them the "H" word again...

Also "interesting" is that despite this background research purportedly coming from the Hillary camp, it is being repeated and amplified almost exclusively by right-wing news media.

[obeygiant]

How interesting that none of these "sources" is named, verified or linked to.

You know the rules.

Source, please.

i thought since you can read the entire article... but oh well.

http://www.insightmag.com/

[obeygiant]

Is it any more "interesting" than Bushco sowing stories about McCain's bi-racial daughter in South Carolina?


sources?

[Dont Hurt Me]

Here we go again, instead of talking about the great issues this country is facing were throwing Mud,throwing Mud and throwing more Mud. We should be electing and nominating people for idea's not how big a mud ball they can make and throw. American Politics on both sides suck and thats why we end of a choice's like Kerry vs Bush. Extremes from both end up winning so that means we will end up McCain vs Clinton. We are screwed yet again.

[skunk]

i thought since you can read the entire article... but oh well.

http://www.insightmag.com/"Subscribers only". Are these "sources" named, by any chance?

[zimv20]

oh, he's sourcing insightmag now? this forum is more balanced than than rag...

[IJ Reilly]

The beat goes on...

[MacNut]

If a person wants to become president are there background checks done.

[IJ Reilly]

If a person wants to become president are there back round checks done.

By whom, and for what purposes?

[MacNut]

If you are gonna have someone rule the free world don't you want to know the person who has their finger on the button.

[IJ Reilly]

If you are gonna have someone rule the free world don't you want to know the person who has their finger on the button.

I don't think you answered my question... was that on purpose?

[MacNut]

I don't think you answered my question... was that on purpose?Who usually does back round checks on people, as for the purpose, I would think it would be to keep someone who is unstable out of the office.

If you need a back round check to be a teacher, why not president.

[IJ Reilly]

Who usually does back round checks on people, as for the purpose, I would think it would be to keep someone who is unstable out of the office.

Please, that's just a rhetorical question, or something like it. I still have no idea what you're trying to say, or how it fits into this discussion.

[MacNut]

It was brought up in this thread about someone's back round, so how is it not relevant.

[zimv20]

If a person wants to become president are there back round checks done.
the reason i started the thread was not because of what was discovered during a background check, but how that information is now being presented for political gain (i.e. the smear).

are you, in fact, defending the smear?

[MacNut]

the reason i started the thread was not because of what was discovered during a background check, but how that information is now being presented for political gain (i.e. the smear).

are you, in fact, defending the smear?I am not smearing anyone, I am just simply asking a simple question. Most people who have a high rank of power have to have a background check. It is a general statement.

[zimv20]

I am not smearing anyone, I am just simply asking a simple question. Most people who have a high rank of power have to have a back round check. It is a general statement.
i don't understand why you even bothered commenting, then. the issue is that someone, at a minimum fox news, perhaps others, is trying to paint sen obama as a dangerous terrorist.

do you agree with that assessment? do you think fox is w/in bounds with such a characterization? or are you just rambling on about something no one else is discussing? your playing-the-innocent act isn't flying here.

[it5five]

obeygiant and his islamophobia debunked here (http://halfricanrevolution.blogspot.com/2007/01/facts-and-falsehoods-about-obama.html) and here (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp).

[IJ Reilly]

I am not smearing anyone, I am just simply asking a simple question. Most people who have a high rank of power have to have a back round check. It is a general statement.

A back round check, and in an exam for scoliosis?

Seriously, I have no idea what you're trying to say here, or how it relates to this topic.

[pseudobrit]

sources?

This is not new information to this forum:

link (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/03/21/the_anatomy_of_a_smear_campaign/)

I could've snidely told you you could've used Google or just otherwise been a condescending ass when giving you the link.

But I'm not a dickhead like that.

[pseudobrit]

back round checks

back round checks...back round check

back round

back round check

WTF is going on here? Are you for serious?

[Dont Hurt Me]

WTF is going on here? Are you for serious?I think his G key is broken meaning Background checks. You guys getting a little tough arent you?

[IJ Reilly]

When Gerald Ford died a few weeks ago, all of the coverage kept saying, you know, coyly suggesting that he was a mediocrity, that he had never passed any major legislation, never passed any major legislation -- which, you know, on one hand, we're Republicans; we don't want them passing legislation, we want them repealing legislation -- but leaving that point aside, I mean, everything they were saying to point out how little qualified Ford was as this accidental president is surely true, you know, tenfold in the case of Obama. And I do think it does show -- it further confirms my point that Democrats are racist, and they're just stunned to find a black man who can walk and talk. And, you know, not being a racist, I'm not really that impressed with a black man who can walk and talk. I knew that.

And so spake the Queen of Sleaze.

[zimv20]

You guys getting a little tough arent you?
only if he doesn't come back round.

[MacNut]

only if he doesn't come back round.hey i was a little pre occupied with the football game. So i missed a few.:p

[pseudobrit]

And so spake the Queen of Sleaze.

Who is that? Coulter?

[pseudobrit]

So i missed a few.:p

"A few" like "all of them"?

[MacNut]

"A few" like "all of them"?:o

Did I get them all.

[Flowbee]

I think his G key is broken meaning Background checks. You guys getting a little tough arent you?

PEBCAK. His g key works just fine.

I am not smearing anyone, I am just simply asking a simple question. Most people who have a high rank of power have to have a back round check. It is a general statement.

[MacNut]

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/40s.gifsorry.

[IJ Reilly]

Who is that? Coulter?

Got it in one. On Sean Hannity's radio program.

[mactastic]

sources?
Now your just being petulant. I see someone else has done the legwork and given you your link.

So -- do you find it as "interesting" that a Republican would smear another Republican as you find a Democrat purportedly smearing another Democrat?

How "interesting"...

[skunk]

If a person wants to become president are there background checks done.Oh really? How did Bush get through, then?

[BoyBach]

In keeping with the current theme of the thread...

If you apply for a job in the UK with a hospital, school, leisure centre, OAP home, charities and so on, you must first have a CRB (http://www.crb.gov.uk/) check.

Are UK politicians subject to one, or in the US, an equivalent? And if not, why not?

[IJ Reilly]

only if he doesn't come back round.

I've got a hunch he won't.

[aquajet]

I've got a hunch he won't.

Such a cynical posture.

[IJ Reilly]

Such a cynical posture.

Spineless, as usual.

[zimv20]

Spineless, as usual.
he must have seen our traps.

[zimv20]

cnn (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/index.html)


CNN debunks false report about Obama

JAKARTA, Indonesia (CNN) -- Allegations that Sen. Barack Obama was educated in a radical Muslim school known as a "madrassa" are not accurate, according to CNN reporting.

Insight Magazine, which is owned by the same company as The Washington Times, reported on its Web site last week that associates of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-New York, had unearthed information the Illinois Democrat and likely presidential candidate attended a Muslim religious school known for teaching the most fundamentalist form of Islam.

Obama lived in Indonesia as a child, from 1967 to 1971, with his mother and step-father and has acknowledged attending a Muslim school, but an aide said it was not a madrassa.

Insight attributed the information in its article to an unnamed source, who said it was discovered by "researchers connected to Senator Clinton." A spokesman for Clinton, who is also weighing a White House bid, denied that the campaign was the source of the Obama claim.

He called the story "an obvious right-wing hit job."

Insight stood by its story in a response posted on its Web site Monday afternoon.

The Insight article was cited several times Friday on Fox News and was also referenced by the New York Post, The Glenn Beck program on CNN Headline News and a number of political blogs.

(more)

waiting for insight's and giant's mea culpa. yeah, i'll have that beer, IJ.

[mactastic]

Well shoot, if the righties believe everything that drops from the lips of UBL and Ahmedimijad, will they also believe HRC when she says her campaign had nothing to do with this?

To paraphrase one of our fabulous posters 'Why would she say something like that and not mean it'?

Just wonderin...

[SharksFan22]

Maybe I'm just losing my mind as I get older, but I don't remember attacks like this happening with such intensity or frequency, this far ahead of an election. I mean, what about some of the positives? Personally, I'm curious to know more about Obama, but honestly I'm skeptical. I'm want to know more but it's difficult to find an objective discussion of him (or any other politician, I suppose). One of my colleagues in Chicago is acquainted with him and says he's really a great guy and that his book is a "must read". For what it's worth.

[zimv20]

One of my colleagues in Chicago is acquainted with him and says he's really a great guy and that his book is a "must read". For what it's worth.
which book? afaik, he's got 2.

did you happen to see sen obama deliver the 2004 keynote address at the 2004 dem convention? i'd already voted for him, but that speech was pretty impressive, imo.

[SharksFan22]

which book? afaik, he's got 2.

did you happen to see sen obama deliver the 2004 keynote address at the 2004 dem convention? i'd already voted for him, but that speech was pretty impressive, imo.

Unfortunately, no I'm not sure which book. I should find out though.

And no, while I've heard others speak of it, I didn't see his speech. I really hadn't paid that much attention to him until just recently but again while I'm nowhere near ready to give a thumbs up or thumbs down, am intrigued....

[Dont Hurt Me]

Republicans dont want to run against Obama, Im sure we will hear a lot more fiction because Republicans would love for Hillary to be the candidate for the Democrats. I think we should be talking about someone with real experience like Bill Richardson and not the clowns of the democratic party machine.

Clinton has no experience and voted for the war.

Edwards voted for this war & even helped draft the discusting Patriot Act, I wont vote for him for that alone.

Obama no Experience but voted against it. Thats 1 point for him. No experience in anything as far as I can tell.

Bill Richardson is the only guy running at the moment who has some real experience,has ran a State,Secretary of Energy & Ambassador to the U.N. and is a moderate who can get both republican & democrats to work together. Worth a closer look and more discussion in my view.

[IJ Reilly]

If we think facts are going to stand in the way of continuing this smear, then we haven't been living for the last ten years. The people on the Right who cook up this crap are going to keep it alive, one way or another. They believe they scored a "two-fer" by not only implying that Obama might just be a closet terrorist, but also by blaming this "revelation" on another Democrat. Note how Insight is sticking by the story, and isn't revealing their "source." The goal is to create ambiguity, so that people who want it to be true, can cling to a reason to believe it no matter what anyone else says.

[skunk]

Clinton has no experience and voted for the war and couldnt even keep Bill Happy hence his straying.Although I agree wholeheartedly that Hillary's vote for war was a monumental error, I really do think you should leave any assumptions about her sexual attractiveness or responsibility for her husband's philandering out of the equation. It's (a) completely presumptious and (b) completely irrelevant to anyone's competence in office.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Although I agree wholeheartedly that Hillary's vote for war was a monumental error, I really do think you should leave any assumptions about her sexual attractiveness or responsibility for her husband's philandering out of the equation. It's (a) completely presumptious and (b) completely irrelevant to anyone's competence in office.Your right and thats valid Im going to edit my post because it was below the belt.

[Thomas Veil]

IJ, I came to the same conclusion as you. I do indeed think this is a "two-fer". Hillary's too smart to try something like this, but some right wing mags are not beneath making things up out of whole cloth.

[solvs]

Actually I'm surprised everyone on this board doesnt HATE him for being a Christian.
They don't because he's a real Christian who generally seems to care about the people he serves, backing up his words with actions. He's not just some fundamentalist wearing the Bible on their sleeve to gain further power while hypocritically doing the exact opposite of what they claim to support. But yeah, I guess if you're not really paying attention, it's easier to make such blanket statements.

argh, i don't know who to trust!
I have no love for the Hillary, but c'mon. This isn't her style. He's the first one she'll buddy up to. Especially if either of them actually wins the nom.

Now let me get this straight. Hillary Clinton, in competition with Barak Obama for the democratic presidential nominee, has outed Sen. Obama as being formally muslim?
First of all, no one "outed" him. This was already known. Second of all, you make it sound like a bad thing to be Muslim. That's only because of people who think Muslim = terrorist. Which it doesn't. And third of course, it has already been debunked. But the damage is done.

In a perfect world this would be more about this issues, but this is not a perfect world. They've probably both been knocked out now, which is probably too bad, but also probably a good thing. Neither of them have a chance in the general election, which is sad, but the reality.

Personally, I'd vote for him in a minute if I could whatever his religion, despite disagreeing with him on some issues.

[skunk]

First of all, no one "outed" him. This was already known. Second of all, you make it sound like a bad thing to be Muslim.And thirdly, he doesn't seem to know the difference between "formerly" and "formally".

[solvs]

And thirdly, he doesn't seem to know the difference between "formerly" and "formally".

The bad spelling/grammar is fourth. Third was the CNN debunking. ;) You can have fifth if you want, unless someone else takes it.

I suspect this is pretty much the end of it for now, until the next thread about Obama being tied to something negative that has nothing to do with him, since even FOX is backpeddling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxZ7S9NgrG8) now.

[skunk]

The bad spelling/grammar is fourth. Third was the CNN debunking. ;) You can have fifth if you want, unless someone else takes it.

I suspect this is pretty much the end of it for now, until the next thread about Obama being tied to something negative that has nothing to do with him, since even FOX is backpeddling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxZ7S9NgrG8) now.I'll take "backpeddling" instead of "back-pedal(l)ing" as my fifth. ;)

[Desertrat]

IJ, back to the "background check" stuff for a moment: Don't you reckon the DNC would have been vetting, these past few weeks or even months? I'd imagine they don't want to have to do some equivalent of the Clinton "bimbo squad" in today's world of Internet blogs. They certainly wouldn't want to spend tens of millions of dollars on a candidate and then have some October 25th eruption that makes him/her unelectable.

As far as "vicious attacks", I doubt any of them would be any worse than what's been said here on this website, these last few years...

'Rat

[skunk]

IJ, back to the "background check" stuff for a moment: Don't you reckon the DNC would have been vetting, these past few weeks or even months? I'd imagine they don't want to have to do some equivalent of the Clinton "bimbo squad" in today's world of Internet blogs. They certainly wouldn't want to spend tens of millions of dollars on a candidate and then have some October 25th eruption that makes him/her unelectable.'Rat, you are being disingenuous if you really think that this is about a standard "background check" by the Party. I don't imagine you even believe that's what this is about. Otherwise, why would it be trumpeted by Republicans? I'm sure the DNC has done whatever checking they can, but not for the benefit of Clinton nor to feed ammunition to their political opponents. You surely know better than that, so don't come the raw prawn. Act your considerable age. :rolleyes:

[mactastic]

IJ, back to the "background check" stuff for a moment: Don't you reckon the DNC would have been vetting, these past few weeks or even months? I'd imagine they don't want to have to do some equivalent of the Clinton "bimbo squad" in today's world of Internet blogs. They certainly wouldn't want to spend tens of millions of dollars on a candidate and then have some October 25th eruption that makes him/her unelectable.
Don't you also reckon that right-wing types would be doing "oppo" research looking to smear Clinton and Obama? I don't see how you can say the evidence we've seen so far leads to this being a Clinton hit piece.

As far as "vicious attacks", I doubt any of them would be any worse than what's been said here on this website, these last few years...

'RatYeah, we wouldn't want anyone going around saying their work ethic and intelligence is superior to the politicians they have a blind rage about, would we? Get off that high horse 'Rat, you've swum in the sewer as much as anyone around here.

[Swarmlord]

Don't you also reckon that right-wing types would be doing "oppo" research looking to smear Clinton and Obama? I don't see how you can say the evidence we've seen so far leads to this being a Clinton hit piece.

Yeah, we wouldn't want anyone going around saying their work ethic and intelligence is superior to the politicians they have a blind rage about, would we? Get off that high horse 'Rat, you've swum in the sewer as much as anyone around here.

It is truly a shame that dirt digging has become standard operating procedure in all elections from school board all the way to President. I suspect that as much money is spent on skullduggery as getting the candidate's message out in the first place.

I always find the mukraking done intraparty prior to the primaries the most interesting though. Every expects the Dems and Repubs to do it in the final contest, but you never know what to expect prior to the primaries when the parties eat their own.

[Desertrat]

skunk, I didn't say anything about these allegations. I was referring to the other byplay in this thread in which IJ was engaged, on the subject of candidates being checked out by somebody.

Separate from what I said about the DNC (or the RNC, for that matter), all political groups, whether party folks in general or campaign staffs in particular, are looking for any and all dirt they can find about any opponent.

The art of the smear is becoming ever more highly refined; it's certainly nothing new in politics. The effort today is less about sexual peccadillos and more about that which will strike the modern public nerve: In this case, anything concerning Islam.

Face it: Discussions of a candidate's political philosophy are seen as boring. Discussions of the details and ramifications of issues are seen as boring. Sound bites over trivia are easy to make. Personal stuff can be made exciting, which attracts an audience, which sells advertising. IMO, we're way too much into the, "How does it feel?" nonsense.

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

skunk, I didn't say anything about these allegations. I was referring to the other byplay in this thread in which IJ was engaged, on the subject of candidates being checked out by somebody.

Separate from what I said about the DNC (or the RNC, for that matter), all political groups, whether party folks in general or campaign staffs in particular, are looking for any and all dirt they can find about any opponent.

The art of the smear is becoming ever more highly refined; it's certainly nothing new in politics. The effort today is less about sexual peccadillos and more about that which will strike the modern public nerve: In this case, anything concerning Islam.

Face it: Discussions of a candidate's political philosophy are seen as boring. Discussions of the details and ramifications of issues are seen as boring. Sound bites over trivia are easy to make. Personal stuff can be made exciting, which attracts an audience, which sells advertising. IMO, we're way too much into the, "How does it feel?" nonsense.

'Rat

No matter how you look at it, Fox News ran with a political hit piece which was generated by a highly partisan rag without making even the most rudimentary effort to determine if the story was true. To say they demonstrated their usual complete lack of judgement is an understatement.

[solvs]

I'll take "backpeddling" instead of "back-pedal(l)ing" as my fifth. ;)
Thought that looked wrong. Spellchecker said it was peddle. That's why I don't usually correct grammar/spelling. There but for the grace.

As far as "vicious attacks", I doubt any of them would be any worse than what's been said here on this website, these last few years...
We're not a major news outlet claiming to be fair and balanced.

all political groups, whether party folks in general or campaign staffs in particular, are looking for any and all dirt they can find about any opponent.
Why is being around Muslims when you're a child "dirt"?

[pseudobrit]

Apparently I'm not allowed to call out obeygiant anymore without getting all my posts deleted without explanation. So I guess he'll go on my ignore list instead.

[zimv20]

I guess he'll go on my ignore list instead.
my world is a much happier place with him on mine.

but from the quoted snippets i see, it really does look like he's descending into madness.

[IJ Reilly]

but from the quoted snippets i see, it really does look like he's descending into madness.

Always the first step towards perfect clarity.

[solvs]

Apparently I'm not allowed to call out obeygiant anymore without getting all my posts deleted without explanation.
I wouldn't take it personally. Some things of mine got deleted too. I can't remember what they were, but they were probably flippant.

I'd rather just keep from being banned, which for some reason the people we keep arguing with don't seem to be too worried about.