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Donza
Jan 21, 2007, 06:11 PM
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2426

They seem to be moving from cold cathode fluorescent backlights (CCFLs) towards LED backlights.

"While pricer than CCFLs, LED technology is more efficient at distributing lighting evenly across the entire display surface and offers an increase in color saturation. According to a white paper from Cree, a backlight solutions provider expected to provide its LED technology to Apple, LED-based backlights also consume less power, run cooler, and last longer than CCFLs."

Sounds good to me. Just sold my Macbook so I even might wait for 2nd quarter of this year before buying a new one.



BigJohno
Jan 21, 2007, 06:22 PM
Same I'm waiting till there is somthin new on the line. This is going to look good with that glossy screen they have.

PDE
Jan 21, 2007, 06:26 PM
Same I'm waiting till there is somthin new on the line. This is going to look good with that glossy screen they have.

I wonder if it'll be compatible with the current generation? Would be great to throw my 17" display out and replace it with an LED display...

dllavaneras
Jan 21, 2007, 06:36 PM
I sure want the unreleased but very much anticipated tablet to have this :)

phungy
Jan 21, 2007, 06:37 PM
Thanks for sharing! Can't wait to see what it looks like in person.

Daveway
Jan 21, 2007, 06:45 PM
...and I've just secured my decision of next Apple purchase.

Awesome. No more uneven backlighting and grain (hopefully)

MacRumors
Jan 21, 2007, 07:14 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Appleinsider provides (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2426) confirmation for a rumor that first appeared on Digitimes (Page 2) (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2007/01/20070103163732.shtml) earlier this month. According to Appleinsider, the newest MacBook Pros will transition away from "cold cathode fluorescent backlights (CCFLs) and towards LED backlights."

The rumor site targets the 15" MacBook Pro as the likely recipient of the LED screen in the "second quarter" of this year, but it is unclear when the 17" Pros and 13" MacBooks will also beneift from the upgrades.

LED-lit displays offer some notable improvements over the traditional CCFLs backlit displays, including:

- improved battery life (uses less power)
- maintain brightness longer over current screens
- more vivid colors

kjs862
Jan 21, 2007, 07:17 PM
I'll take one.

gogoman
Jan 21, 2007, 07:18 PM
When are we gonna start seeing OLED displays in our laptops. I hope Apple is secretly working out the fading blues problem in this technology and is first to integrate into laptops. Uses MUCH less power, creates its OWN light and super pixel density.

HiRez
Jan 21, 2007, 07:18 PM
I think another benefit would be more even backlighting, no? Less dark dim blotches? If you use multiple LEDs and space them out evenly anyway, I'm not sure how it's done.

DTphonehome
Jan 21, 2007, 07:20 PM
This is a BIG step up!

shigzeo
Jan 21, 2007, 07:22 PM
i was almost sure that i might somehow post first here... damn. well, as it is a new tech (for notebooks in mass prod) we are not sure how well it will work, but if it is good, we will all want it. i cannot get much more excited!

kenzbud
Jan 21, 2007, 07:23 PM
Improved battery life.... Does anybody have an idea how much? 25% 50%????
Is there any notebooks that currently use this technology already???

GeorgeTheMonkey
Jan 21, 2007, 07:27 PM
Wicked cool.

And scheduled to possibly come out just when I might possibly, crossing-my-fingers maybe will have enough money to upgrade from my aging 17" PowerBook.

But dang, Apple's gotta stop coming out with things for me to spend money on. An iPhone, a potential tablet/mini-Macbook, an Apple TV, and now even more incentive to get a new Macbook Pro. My wallet is feeling lonely already!

aswitcher
Jan 21, 2007, 07:27 PM
I would like to think that they will push the envelope a bit further and introduce new features like inbuilt GPS etc with the next rev.

Chef Medeski
Jan 21, 2007, 07:29 PM
Improved battery life.... Does anybody have an idea how much? 25% 50%????
Is there any notebooks that currently use this technology already???
I would be shocked if it was more than 10%. Id feel vindicated for 5%. Well I mean. If you had robson hybrid hd/ram technology. With these screens. Plus a bit more efficient CPUs. You could potentially get 15-25%. Which if you think about it. On a 4 hours battery life is almost an extra hour. Pretty good. Nothing AMAZING. But good evolution.

twoodcc
Jan 21, 2007, 07:31 PM
seems nice....but i'm happy with my Core2Duo MBP.....

TraceyS/FL
Jan 21, 2007, 07:32 PM
Guess that seals the deal - i have to wait....

Darn it - i need it NOW (but don't have the $$ anyway :P).

HURRY UP!!

Chef Medeski
Jan 21, 2007, 07:33 PM
I would like to think that they will push the envelope a bit further and introduce new features like inbuilt GPS etc with the next rev.

Robson
GPS
LED
A video camera instead of just an isight (only really useful if you can swifel it around to take videos of lecture, altough just a swiveling isight would be nice to snap pics of complex notes.)
More than 5 hours battery life.


That would make me say WHOAH Apple. You didnt forget about your computers. Anything else would just be one more thing...

wozzlewoozle
Jan 21, 2007, 07:34 PM
I would be shocked if it was more than 10%. Id feel vindicated for 5%. Well I mean. If you had robson hybrid hd/ram technology. With these screens. Plus a bit more efficient CPUs. You could potentially get 15-25%. Which if you think about it. On a 4 hours battery life is almost an extra hour. Pretty good. Nothing AMAZING. But good evolution.

I agree. Although I won't complain about a little extra battery life, a little is all I expect this to give.

thejadedmonkey
Jan 21, 2007, 07:37 PM
Robson
GPS
LED
A video camera instead of just an isight (only really useful if you can swifel it around to take videos of lecture, altough just a swiveling isight would be nice to snap pics of complex notes.)
More than 5 hours battery life.


That would make me say WHOAH Apple. You didnt forget about your computers. Anything else would just be one more thing...

As long as you can't even get two mouse buttons on a laptop, you'll never get an isight that can swivle/

Daveway
Jan 21, 2007, 07:37 PM
I don't know of any laptops that have this technology yet, but I think I heard HP, CES, laptop, led mentioned.
Samsung has a desktop panel out and NEC released the first one about 2 years ago that retailed for $6,500.

Hopefully prices have come down.:(

maxp1
Jan 21, 2007, 07:40 PM
Well I'm looking to pass my aging, but still very functional, G4 powerbook down to my girlfriend soon (who's using my old TIbook). It would be fantastic if the new MBP came out with whatever the next processor upgrade is, the next OS upgrade and non-draft-n wifi.
Of course I want it NOW!! I hate playing the waiting game. :) Then again, I've had good luck waiting and managed to catch 2nd generations of significant upgrades (the ones with the bugs worked out) that have lasted a long time. This time I decided not to go for the 2nd generation Intel Macs figuring it would take a bit longer to get everything straight. I chomping at the bit though.

Anyone have a feature wish list for the MBP that's longer than mine?

Glassman
Jan 21, 2007, 07:51 PM
Sony use LED backlight in some of their ultraportables..

LED backlight, great, I'll take it - but for god's sake make it high resolution when you're at it (and with resolution independence behind the doors)..

Leondunkleyc
Jan 21, 2007, 07:55 PM
.

Chundles
Jan 21, 2007, 07:56 PM
Well I'm looking to pass my aging, but still very functional, G4 powerbook down to my girlfriend soon (who's using my old TIbook). It would be fantastic if the new MBP came out with whatever the next processor upgrade is, the next OS upgrade and non-draft-n wifi.
Of course I want it NOW!! I hate playing the waiting game. :) Then again, I've had good luck waiting and managed to catch 2nd generations of significant upgrades (the ones with the bugs worked out) that have lasted a long time. This time I decided not to go for the 2nd generation Intel Macs figuring it would take a bit longer to get everything straight. I chomping at the bit though.

Anyone have a feature wish list for the MBP that's longer than mine?

Well, you won't get final spec 802.11n until it's ratified in 2008 so you'll be waiting a while for that - however it should only take a firmware update to bring the current draft-n spec up to final spec.

RichP
Jan 21, 2007, 07:57 PM
Awesome! It seems like the Santa Rosa-based revision is going to be a BIG revision. The screen does use a decent amount of battery power, going to LED should help leviate it a bit.

papaburgundy
Jan 21, 2007, 07:58 PM
Definitely gonna have to wait and see now. Please apple make it worth the wait.

SpaceJello
Jan 21, 2007, 08:01 PM
does anyone know of any links/pics comparing LCD vs LED screens? I tried googlin but couldn't find a good one.

MrCrowbar
Jan 21, 2007, 08:08 PM
When are we gonna start seeing OLED displays in our laptops. I hope Apple is secretly working out the fading blues problem in this technology and is first to integrate into laptops. Uses MUCH less power, creates its OWN light and super pixel density.

Solution to fading blue: Adapt the color profile once in a while. Apple could make that automatic, so every few weeks of your screen being on, it turns up the blue a notch. The only bad thing about OLED is you can't read it in bright sunlight. That's what's cool about LCD, you can even read it with the backlight off, when there's enough natural light reflected by the panel. You can even shine a maglite through the Apple logo of your Macbook, it lightens up the screen quite a bit.

sluthy
Jan 21, 2007, 08:10 PM
Apple Aus has an education deal going now that gives a $200 cashback on any iPod purchased with a computer before April 17th (a Monday I believe). What's the bet that Santa Rosa-based MBPs with LED backlights, HD resolution and all the bells and whistles comes out on Tuesday the 18th? :D

Now I wonder if I can milk my education discount out long enough to stretch to April...

Chef Medeski
Jan 21, 2007, 08:17 PM
As long as you can't even get two mouse buttons on a laptop, you'll never get an isight that can swivle/

Good point. Two button mouse would be nice. But I dont know. Ctrl's been workin for me for awhile. I dont know whenever I need two buttons I just use my might mouse. Its only like photoshop and word where i really feel it.

wmmk
Jan 21, 2007, 08:18 PM
cool, but I wish apple would only innovate when I was in the market for a new system, but make huge leaps at those times. I'll add that to my list of things to do when the King of Mars installs me as Communist Dictator of the colony Earth...

JudasConstant
Jan 21, 2007, 08:19 PM
I wonder if this means something more like this:
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/

That would be innovative.

coolchan
Jan 21, 2007, 08:20 PM
As long as you can't even get two mouse buttons on a laptop, you'll never get an isight that can swivle/

I don't even use the mouse button. I just use two fingers for right click.

Chef Medeski
Jan 21, 2007, 08:21 PM
I wonder if this means something more like this:
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/

That would be innovative.

Dream on. The couldnt even get a prototype of that after two years. Yet put one in your laptop, yeah....

EagerDragon
Jan 21, 2007, 08:30 PM
This maybe the Santa Rosa upgrade with LED illumination, a higher contrast and higher resolution screen with support for resolution independance. Woot.

Warning: you need to wear sunglasses with these babies and put on some sun tan lotion.

nobunetc
Jan 21, 2007, 08:33 PM
Sony use LED backlight in some of their ultraportables..

Exactly. The model called "type T" in Japan uses LED backlight. The model is called "TX Series" in USA. Longer battery, more vivid colors, and one more thing... the display assembly can be razor-thin.:)

From Win to Mac
Jan 21, 2007, 08:33 PM
Finally a new MBP rumor, damn, I've been wainting for two months already.

If the ship with the x1600 again, I'll cry.

Stridder44
Jan 21, 2007, 08:35 PM
As long as you can't even get two mouse buttons on a laptop, you'll never get an isight that can swivle/

Amen. I mean honestly, one button? I'm usually not that hurt over feature loss but you'd think a two-buttoned mouse in a laptop would be a basic. Im surprised they even included speakers in the Macbooks.

Analog Kid
Jan 21, 2007, 08:35 PM
Anybody know what the LED spectrum is like? Is it white enough to give good color?

I would be shocked if it was more than 10%. Id feel vindicated for 5%. Well I mean. If you had robson hybrid hd/ram technology. With these screens. Plus a bit more efficient CPUs. You could potentially get 15-25%. Which if you think about it. On a 4 hours battery life is almost an extra hour. Pretty good. Nothing AMAZING. But good evolution.

I'd guess that any power reductions will get absorbed by either higher power processors or lighter batteries. I don't think run-time will change.

GoCubsGo
Jan 21, 2007, 08:36 PM
I am curious how this affects the price. Will it be higher or lower now or stay the same because it can?

jmsait19
Jan 21, 2007, 08:37 PM
Sounds great, just two questions, what's the price difference between these and the current backlights, and what is the expected lifespan for them? Is it 5000 hours like most products using LEDs?

most led's in flashlights have 100,000 hours... of course they lose a little brightnss but they maintain very well. it would far exceed that of an lcd screen though, i know that much.

iVoid
Jan 21, 2007, 09:23 PM
Darn it... this means we will probably lose our glowing apple on the other side of the screen. :) :) :)

BlueRevolution
Jan 21, 2007, 09:42 PM
I think the more important point of switching to LED backlights is that there will be no more lead in the computers. That's gotta make Greenpeace happy...

cepler
Jan 21, 2007, 09:42 PM
I hope the brightness holds up with this technology...I know the blue LED's on some of my case fans have DRAMATICALLY faded over the past year or so. I can barely tell that the LED's are there now.. :-/

reallynotnick
Jan 21, 2007, 09:45 PM
Darn it... this means we will probably lose our glowing apple on the other side of the screen. :) :) :)

Trust me Apple will find a way to make that light up, that or we will never go to LED's OR Apple will just stop making laptops.


EDIT: Wow 2 posts just popped right above me, we all posted at like the same time.

SWC
Jan 21, 2007, 10:09 PM
You'll never see a moveable isight because of the fact it would create more breaks in the casing and deter from the smooth edges of the outside shell. If they could get away with it I bet they wouldn't let you replace the battery in your laptop without removing the bottom panel.

Two buttom mouse, Steve won't let that happen anytime soon, it's about ego. Why do you think they have the mighty mouse? its touch sensitive. The new multi-touch track pads (probably a way for apple to work out the kinks before putting it on a screen) these are both things that didn't need to be done but they did it so they didn't have to give into a two button world.

NewSc2
Jan 21, 2007, 10:15 PM
figures... i just bought a new MBP too :(

~Shard~
Jan 21, 2007, 10:59 PM
This would definitely be a nice update to the MBPs. My wife is looking at buying one once Leopard and iLife 07 are released so hopefully the timing will work out well to take advantage of this update as well. :cool:

MrCrowbar
Jan 21, 2007, 11:11 PM
Amen. I mean honestly, one button? I'm usually not that hurt over feature loss but you'd think a two-buttoned mouse in a laptop would be a basic. Im surprised they even included speakers in the Macbooks.

Ever tried the 2 finger tapping? I absolutely love how I can scroll in every direction and right-click using to fingern on the touch pad. I usually use the physical button for mouse-click cuz it's placed so conveniently that the knuckle of my thumb rest on it all the time. If there were 2 button, I would probably end up only using the left half of the touch pad. And I just figured out that tapping one finger has half a second of latency... button is quicker. right click is instant tho...

Does anyone know how the 2 finger stuff works on the touchpads? If it can really detect the position of two fingers at the same time, why not add the "pinch" feature so you can zoom in by moving your fingers apart. Leopard maybe?

Zadillo
Jan 21, 2007, 11:28 PM
If anyone wants to see what LED backlighting looks like, head down to a local CompUSA, Best Buy or SonyStyle store and check out either the Sony TX laptop series or the premium Sony SZ laptops (the premiums are the higher model number ones.... i.e. the Sony Vaio SZ370 is a premium model and includes LED backlighting, while the SZ330 is non-premium and doesn't include it).

I am really glad to see that Apple will be using this tech. The screens on the premium SZ models and the TX models Sony makes are excellent; very bright, very evenly lit, very rich colors. I really loved my C2D MBP, but had to send it back because of the uneven illumination (with the right half of the screen noticeably darker than the left side). LED backlighting should seal the deal.

One thing though, I don't think Apple could put this technology in the regular MacBooks. The price still seems to be pretty high (hence why it only appears in Sony's expensive TX series, and the premium SZ laptops, which cost hundreds more than the non-premium models).

Regarding battery life, on the SZ at least, the premium models do get better battery life than the non-premium ones, but how much more seems to vary. But half an hour to an hour extra life don't seem to be too uncommong.

But either way, can't wait to see these new machines. I think the C2D MBP as it stands is one of the closest things I've seen to laptop perfection, with the screen being the one weak point.

macsaregoodmkay
Jan 21, 2007, 11:28 PM
does anyone know when the new macbook pro will be available? also what kind of processor upgrade? im hearing Q2, does that mean more like april or june? i wonder if its worth the wait at this point... the age old question.

Zadillo
Jan 21, 2007, 11:30 PM
Ever tried the 2 finger tapping? I absolutely love how I can scroll in every direction and right-click using to fingern on the touch pad. I usually use the physical button for mouse-click cuz it's placed so conveniently that the knuckle of my thumb rest on it all the time. If there were 2 button, I would probably end up only using the left half of the touch pad. And I just figured out that tapping one finger has half a second of latency... button is quicker. right click is instant tho...

Does anyone know how the 2 finger stuff works on the touchpads? If it can really detect the position of two fingers at the same time, why not add the "pinch" feature so you can zoom in by moving your fingers apart. Leopard maybe?

I think it's mainly a function of the trackpad technology and the trackpad driver. As it is right now, they're programmed to be able to tell when you have two fingers touching it in separate locations at the same time. I'm not sure if they're sophisticated enough to respond to things like a "pinch" gesture, but I would think it probably isn't out of the realm of possibility for them to do in the future.

Personally I love the two-finger clicking. Once I got used to it, I found that I actually prefer it to the "right-clicking" on a typical laptop, since I can more easily "right-click" with two-finger tapping than having to shift my thumb, etc. to right-click on the physical right button.

Zadillo
Jan 21, 2007, 11:32 PM
does anyone know when the new macbook pro will be available? also what kind of processor upgrade? im hearing Q2, does that mean more like april or june? i wonder if its worth the wait at this point... the age old question.

If you've waited this long and don't need a new system immediately, it probably is worth it.

The processors probably won't be significantly upgraded, but what will be is the underlying system architecture, called Santa Rosa.

The laptops shipping now with Core 2 Duo chips are still actually using the older system architecture, which doesn't take full advantage of the capabilities of these new chips. Santa Rosa actually does, and should see some performance benefits.

Apple's new laptops could also have other interesting new features and capabilities.

I would expect to see something around May, which is when Santa Rosa is supposed to debut, I believe.

The LED backlighting would also be a pretty good reason to wait for the new models, as I think they should be a significant improvement over current MBP screens.

But as always, if you really need something in the next month or two, you might as well get it. Otherwise there will always be something new and better around the corner.

-Zadillo

MrCrowbar
Jan 22, 2007, 12:26 AM
Personally I love the two-finger clicking. Once I got used to it, I found that I actually prefer it to the "right-clicking" on a typical laptop, since I can more easily "right-click" with two-finger tapping than having to shift my thumb, etc. to right-click on the physical right button.

I totally agree. having 2 button and a "scroll button" like most laptops have is kinda retarded compared to multi-finger tap. When I scroll a lot I use the touchpad, the mighty mouse can't scroll freely in 2 dimensions, and I find the ...clitoris very akward to use.

Back on topic: What will Apple do with the saved space if they use LED backlighting? I mean, 15" or even 17" laptop screens should not be too thin to be stable and sturdy enough. There's a limit when you're using aluminum. Would apple make the base thicker? Hell they won't. Maybe they'll keep the current enclosure as it is, but put a giant wireless antenna into the lid... or a very flat second battery? Or how about some flash memory in there? My Macbook's lid is twice as thick as my iPod nano, so I suppose there would be some space for flash memory behind the backlight. Or a GPS antenna, or 3G, you get the idea.

As for the shiny Apple logo on the lid of Apple laptops, I think it would probably have it's dedicated backlighting. Or make it like all those flip phones that have a second display for when the lid is closed. How cool would and OLED screen in the shape of the apple logo be? Let it run iTunes visualizer on the Apple to freak out people in trains. Make it pulsate together with the sleep LED, make it green when on AC power, orange when charging so you know what's going on when it's closed. This is all highly unlikely, but I douubt they would totally ditch the glowing Apple on the Laptops. I mean, how lame is that just to have a logo cut out of plastic like most other brands? I love how the logo pisses off people in front of me. :-)

iEric
Jan 22, 2007, 12:34 AM
sweet. just as long as they keep the matte option. if they don't i will kill my neighbor. okay, i won't, but i'd be pissed.

Zadillo
Jan 22, 2007, 12:42 AM
I totally agree. having 2 button and a "scroll button" like most laptops have is kinda retarded compared to multi-finger tap. When I scroll a lot I use the touchpad, the mighty mouse can't scroll freely in 2 dimensions, and I find the ...clitoris very akward to use.

Back on topic: What will Apple do with the saved space if they use LED backlighting? I mean, 15" or even 17" laptop screens should not be too thin to be stable and sturdy enough. There's a limit when you're using aluminum. Would apple make the base thicker? Hell they won't. Maybe they'll keep the current enclosure as it is, but put a giant wireless antenna into the lid... or a very flat second battery? Or how about some flash memory in there? My Macbook's lid is twice as thick as my iPod nano, so I suppose there would be some space for flash memory behind the backlight. Or a GPS antenna, or 3G, you get the idea.

Not sure, but Sony at least uses carbon fiber casing for the TX and premium SZ lids to go along with the LED backlighting, so I wouldn't be surprised if Apple did something similar to offer thinness while keeping it durable.

sethypoo
Jan 22, 2007, 12:49 AM
...and I've just secured my decision of next Apple purchase.

Awesome. No more uneven backlighting and grain (hopefully)

Heh, I've never, ever noticed any "uneven backlighting" or "grain" in any of the many Apple LCD's, iBook's, PowerBooks, or MacBook's I've used over the years.

CCFL's work fine, if manufactured properly. Call me a CCFL loyalist, but LED seems almost too good to be true, for now. I'll wait a year or two and let them work the kinks out, then I may upgrade.

benbow
Jan 22, 2007, 02:12 AM
I recall reading that Canon's original IXUS digital camera displays (1.5-1.8") had LED backlights to minimize battery consumption. Now all digital cameras and cell phones probably use LEDs rather than CCFL light sources.

Now that superluminescent white LEDs are available LCD display manufacturers must have figured out how to evenly illuminate notebook displays using white LEDs. I imagine it involves putting the LEDs along the edges and having a reflective surface behind the plates holding the liquid crystal pixel array, or putting them directly behind a white diffusing screen in a two dimensional grid.

Analog Kid
Jan 22, 2007, 04:01 AM
Any word on new desktop displays? We'll be in the market for one soon, but I'm hoping 4 things happen before we have to take the plunge:
--glossy finish
--higher pixel count (anticipating Leopard)
--integrated iSight
--LED backlight and thinner form factor.

Does anyone know how the 2 finger stuff works on the touchpads? If it can really detect the position of two fingers at the same time, why not add the "pinch" feature so you can zoom in by moving your fingers apart. Leopard maybe?

I'm guessing the current touch pads only recognize how much of the pad is contacted by a finger(s) and the rough center of the touch. I don't think they can track two independent touch points.

CCFL's work fine, if manufactured properly. Call me a CCFL loyalist, but LED seems almost too good to be true, for now. I'll wait a year or two and let them work the kinks out, then I may upgrade.

We've been using LED backlighting on small size displays in embedded devices for probably 20 years because of the power savings and reliability and lack of high frequency, high voltage power supplies. What's new is that there are decent white LED sources now, so they can be used in color displays.

lorien
Jan 22, 2007, 04:43 AM
It's about time Apple does something about all those display issues. Blue screens, black screens, flickering screens (I've had a blue myself) I'm waiting till May and hopefully by then they have a new display on the MBP, otherwise I'll have to buy one anyway and put my trust in AppleCare!

EGT
Jan 22, 2007, 05:40 AM
I am curious how this affects the price. Will it be higher or lower now or stay the same because it can?

From the article ..

While pricer than CCFLs, LED technology is more efficient at distributing lighting evenly across the entire display surface and offers an increase in color saturation.

No doubt Apple will charge a premium for this "new" technology. I've never seen LED backlit laptops but when they upgrade the MBPs, I hope they up the resolution a bit too!

And just when I was about to purchase a Macbook! These things can't come soon enough!

Lone Deranger
Jan 22, 2007, 05:51 AM
Very interesting.

I seem to recall reading that LED technology offers an increased colour gamut when compared to conventionally lit LCD panels. That alone would warrent any potential upgrade. :)

This rumour also makes me wonder wether it has anything to do with the ulta-lite/thin MBP rumours floating around...

Detektiv-Pinky
Jan 22, 2007, 06:39 AM
I think the more important point of switching to LED backlights is that there will be no more lead in the computers. That's gotta make Greenpeace happy...

It is Mercury that is the photo-active substance in the fluorescend lamps, not lead.

Heh, I've never, ever noticed any "uneven backlighting" or "grain" in any of the many Apple LCD's, iBook's, PowerBooks, or MacBook's I've used over the years.

CCFL's work fine, if manufactured properly. Call me a CCFL loyalist, but LED seems almost too good to be true, for now. I'll wait a year or two and let them work the kinks out, then I may upgrade.

I noticed the grain in the display when I do a slide-show in iPhoto and use the 'Ken-Burns' Effect that moves the still pictures across the screen. You can then see movement in the colors of the picture, as it moves across. I think otherwise it is hardly noticeable.

I wonder where this comes from. Maybe other LCDs also have it?

bommai
Jan 22, 2007, 07:25 AM
Very interesting.

I seem to recall reading that LED technology offers an increased colour gamut when compared to conventionally lit LCD panels. That alone would warrent any potential upgrade. :)

This rumour also makes me wonder wether it has anything to do with the ulta-lite/thin MBP rumours floating around...

That is correct. Look at upcoming LCD TVs with LED backlighting as well as the Samsung DLP TV that uses LED backlighting. The contrast ratios on the LCDs went way up and the color gamut went up too.

Zadillo
Jan 22, 2007, 08:53 AM
Heh, I've never, ever noticed any "uneven backlighting" or "grain" in any of the many Apple LCD's, iBook's, PowerBooks, or MacBook's I've used over the years.

CCFL's work fine, if manufactured properly. Call me a CCFL loyalist, but LED seems almost too good to be true, for now. I'll wait a year or two and let them work the kinks out, then I may upgrade.

I am glad to hear that you've never noticed either of these problems, but a number of people have. I am one of them; I loved my 15" C2D MBP, but the uneven backlighting was just too problematic; all I had to do was fill the screen with white, and the right-hand side of it was grey because it was so much darker. And this wasn't just me being crazy; when I showed it to the guys at the Apple Genius bar they agreed and let me return it.

Moreover, I would have been glad to just replace it instead, but every MBP, glossy and matte, had the same issue.

Also, you speak about LED backlighting as being "too good to be true" as if it wasn't a technology that was already available. But it is; as mentioned before, Sony has been using it for a while now in the Sony Vaio TX series, as well as the premium Sony SZ series (go look for a Sony Vaio SZ370 or SZ470 and you will see the difference it makes). Just a brighter more even screen across the board. It will be a major boon to Apple to get this stuff in the MBP's.

-Zadillo

L3X
Jan 22, 2007, 08:54 AM
dangit...i guess i will wait... just when i was getting ready to get a C2D MBP...hurry up already with this refresh pleeeeeease!

how has Apple let Sony use it for so long and beat them to the punch. Seems like Apple would have been on this a while back.

sethypoo
Jan 22, 2007, 09:12 AM
We've been using LED backlighting on small size displays in embedded devices for probably 20 years because of the power savings and reliability and lack of high frequency, high voltage power supplies. What's new is that there are decent white LED sources now, so they can be used in color displays.

Yes, but an application on a device with a screen as large as a MacBook Pro seems a little different than what LED backlighting has done so far. I know that the Vaio's have had it as well as a handful of other devices, but I still am going to wait. I've been burned enough times with tech that, while later very useful, at it inception was faulty.

eme jota ce
Jan 22, 2007, 09:40 AM
Improved battery life.... Does anybody have an idea how much? 25% 50%????
Is there any notebooks that currently use this technology already???

That was my quesiton, too.

The Cree website announces LED lighting technology for LCD screens that is 12% more efficient that traditional CCFLs. (That's less that I expected, but would be a welcome boost the the MacBook Pro line. I recently sold my MBP to get a MB primarily for the increased battery life and increased WiFi range of the MB over the MBP)

http://www.cree.com/press/press_detail.asp?i=1143574732375

Macinposh
Jan 22, 2007, 10:04 AM
Heh, I've never, ever noticed any "uneven backlighting" or "grain" in any of the many Apple LCD's, iBook's, PowerBooks, or MacBook's I've used over the years.



Wow!!!:eek:

You must be called Steve or be a good friend with him..

In short time I saw 4 faulty 17" MBPs (blue tint+lightfloods up and down) and one 15" MBP.
On top of that on our premises we have 1 faulty 30" (big yellow flood on the lower part of the screen, 1 faulty 23" (magenta hue that isnt correctable) and 1 20" wich developed faulty pixels.

NONE were repaired on the behalf of apple because they have the 99% policy of dead pixels and lightfloods+magenta were classifed as non-issue...

So in the end,the only flawless displays left were old 3 powerbooks ,2 iBooks (2) and 1 30" display.


So by those standards, you have a 50/50 chance of apple display of being unusable for higher quality production standards.



As i sais,lucky you..

MDMac
Jan 22, 2007, 11:04 AM
I'm hoping they'll add a smaller version of the MBP to the line. I loved how portable the 12" inch was, for sure. Hopefully the price doesn't differ too much.

antonioconte
Jan 22, 2007, 11:21 AM
I can wait 4 weeks for a new 17 MBP, but no longer really. I've really been put off by the comments regarding the screen though?

zblaxberg
Jan 22, 2007, 11:51 AM
Improved battery life.... Does anybody have an idea how much? 25% 50%????
Is there any notebooks that currently use this technology already???

there's no way you'll get 25% more battery life....you would be lucky to get 10%

zblaxberg
Jan 22, 2007, 12:00 PM
is there anything else that they are gonna change with the 15" MBP's cuz i'm waiting to get mine for college but I want the latest and greatest....a 7200 rpm hard drive would be nice........

macsaregoodmkay
Jan 22, 2007, 12:25 PM
any idea when this will happen? and will it be touted as a new mbp or is it just a speed bump? are we looking at major speed increases or just a little faster than current speeds? if this is 4 months away we may as well buy now and be happy. will i have to wait for the kinks to iron out once this comes out?

slffl
Jan 22, 2007, 12:33 PM
Amen. I mean honestly, one button? I'm usually not that hurt over feature loss but you'd think a two-buttoned mouse in a laptop would be a basic. Im surprised they even included speakers in the Macbooks.

The day Apple puts 2 buttons on their laptops is the day I stop buying them. Just because you and other windows users like 2 buttons doesn't mean everyone does. For instance, ME, I hate 2 buttons on a laptop. I RARELY use the 2nd mouse button to begin with and I want to click in the middle of the button without having to look down or move my thumb slightly to the left. God I wish they would come up with a solution to this (well besides already being able to do it 2 different ways) so people could get on with their lives.

Multimedia
Jan 22, 2007, 12:39 PM
Well Sony & Samsung as well as HP and Dell are all bragging about Cold Cathode Florescent Lamps (CCFL) being the NEW superior way to backlight HDTVs and their latest 30" monitors providing a 92% Color Gamut. Sony even claims to have a superior CCFL backlight beyond what Samsung offers. And now we are told here that CCFL is old school and "LED backlights" are next? I'm confused. :confused: :eek:

Does anyone know why CCFL is being used by marketing in the above situations when it is in fact not new or what is really going on with regard to this technology? Is it really traditional or new? Perhaps this is a new version of older less mature CCFL technology? :confused:

As fas as the LED backlight for the next gen mobile Macs, that's enough for me to want to wait for it to reach the 17" model before I pull the trigger. :)Add user replaceable HDDs to my 'want list' on new MBPs...Me too. In fact this is the one missing feature that has kept me from getting one already most of all.

mandoman
Jan 22, 2007, 12:50 PM
Add user replaceable HDDs to my 'want list' on new MBPs...

oldwatery
Jan 22, 2007, 12:51 PM
Great news I think?

Now I really don't know what to do with my 3rd 17"MBP.
I've been offered a full refund but it means I have to wait probably 3-6 months for the new machines.
Another replacement seems like such a waste of time.
If only my trusty old TiBook could keep going till then.

Oh what to do:confused:

ShnikeJSB
Jan 22, 2007, 01:07 PM
I was planning on replacing my Dell XPS Gen 2 (yes, I went to the dark side for a couple years...) when I finally graduate around June. Man, if this rumor turns out to be true, I will be SO happy I waited! I was looking forward to Santa Rosa and Leopard, but LED screens will just be the icing on the cake!!! I can't wait!

Analog Kid
Jan 22, 2007, 01:28 PM
Well Sony & Samsung as well as HP and Dell are all bragging about Cold Cathode Florescent Lamps (CCFL) being the NEW superior way to backlight HDTVs and their latest 30" monitors providing a 92% Color Gamut. Sony even claims to have a superior CCFL backlight beyond what Samsung offers. And now we are told here that CCFL is old school and "LED backlights" are next? I'm confused. :confused: :eek:

Does anyone know why CCFL is being used by marketing in the above situations when it is in fact not new or what is really going on with regard to this technology? Is it really traditional or new? Perhaps this is a new version of older less mature CCFL technology? :confused:

Like you said, it's marketing... That accounts for a lot of it.

I think most HDTVs use some sort of incandescent bulb to get the brightness levels for that large a screen, so CCFL might be new for them. In the 30" monitors, they've probably introduced a new chemistry giving better color. Either way, marketing's job is to make the mundane sound new and exciting.

sehix
Jan 22, 2007, 01:34 PM
Two buttom mouse, Steve won't let that happen anytime soon, it's about ego.

It's a non-issue; you already have the functionality on all shipping MacBooks and MBPs, tapping two fingers on the trackpad.

Why do you think they have the mighty mouse?

For four buttons and scrolling? Is this a trick question?[/QUOTE]

4np
Jan 22, 2007, 02:07 PM
Exactly. The model called "type T" in Japan uses LED backlight. The model is called "TX Series" in USA. Longer battery, more vivid colors, and one more thing... the display assembly can be razor-thin.:)

Could this led backlight rumor be related to that previous 'thin' MacBook Pro rumour that surfaced recently?

4np
Jan 22, 2007, 02:11 PM
If the ship with the x1600 again, I'll cry.

I agree; there should be a GPU apgrade. X1600 is not a Pro GPU (anymore)...

Butthead
Jan 22, 2007, 02:13 PM
Well Sony & Samsung as well as HP and Dell are all bragging about Cold Cathode Florescent Lamps (CCFL) being the NEW superior way to backlight HDTVs and their latest 30" monitors providing a 92% Color Gamut. Sony even claims to have a superior CCFL backlight beyond what Samsung offers. And now we are told here that CCFL is old school and "LED backlights" are next? I'm confused. :confused: :eek:

Does anyone know why CCFL is being used by marketing in the above situations when it is in fact not new or what is really going on with regard to this technology? Is it really traditional or new? Perhaps this is a new version of older less mature CCFL technology? :confused:

As fas as the LED backlight for the next gen mobile Macs, that's enough for me to want to wait for it to reach the 17" model before I pull the trigger. :)Me too. In fact this is the one missing feature that has kept me from getting one already most of all.

Not to pick on MM, but have any of the posters here asking redundant questions on this redudant rumor, actually read the initial rumor thread? So now we know where AppleInsider really gets their scoops, Digitimes :p

The Samsung (read the other thread) 20in monitor that was just annouced that uses
http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20061104_0000298342

LED backlighting, is designed for professionals and as such those LED's are purpose specific, 114% of NTSC gamut. But that hardly means you'll get super accurate color on a commodity laptop from Apple. Meaning they don't necessarily require significanly greater costs to produce such a screen, mass produced led's are coming down in price all the time, especially the tiny size that would be needed for a backlight (also read my links on the other thread, re: OLED, not ready for prime time/economy of scale, but the fading blue issue has recently been worked out...unless you use your laptop everyday of they year and spend more than 8hrs each and everyday, otherwise don't sweat the 'limited' blue spectrum of the OLED when they finally go into production).

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=3269416&highlight=samsung+oled#post3269416

Zadillo
Jan 22, 2007, 02:15 PM
I agree; there should be a GPU apgrade. X1600 is not a Pro GPU (anymore)...

But what GPU would you fit in there? To date, there still aren't any significantly better video cards that could fit into a 1" thick 15" notebook. Frankly even on thicker 15", the most powerful cards now are the X1700 and GeForce 7700, which are only slightly more powerful than the X1600 and GeForce 7600.

it's fine to say there should be a GPU upgrade, but I think someone would have to propose what GPU upgrade that would be that would make a significant performance difference.

4np
Jan 22, 2007, 02:20 PM
Ever tried the 2 finger tapping? I absolutely love how I can scroll in every direction and right-click using to fingern on the touch pad.

Erh? 2 finger tapping? right clicking with your finger on the touch pad?

4np
Jan 22, 2007, 03:01 PM
But what GPU would you fit in there? To date, there still aren't any significantly better video cards that could fit into a 1" thick 15" notebook. Frankly even on thicker 15", the most powerful cards now are the X1700 and GeForce 7700, which are only slightly more powerful than the X1600 and GeForce 7600.

it's fine to say there should be a GPU upgrade, but I think someone would have to propose what GPU upgrade that would be that would make a significant performance difference.

a Radeon x1800 or GeForce GO 7900 or something?

Compare, for example, the 3DMarks between this asus a7g notebook (http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.aspx?page=3&articleid=756&cid=2) with x1600 GPU and this dell xps m1710 notebook (http://www.mobilityguru.com/2006/04/18/dell_xps_m1710/page9.html) with GO 7900 gpu. Of course the difference in hardware should also be taken into account but the difference below is too huge to be difference in (other) hardware only.

Asus A7G (X1600)
http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item756/3dm.png

Dell XPS M1710 (Go 7900)
http://images.tomshardware.com/2006/04/18/dell_xps_m1710/image027.gif

And here a comparisson (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1867125,00.asp) between different GPU's:
http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/util_get_image/11/0,1425,i=115583,00.gif

Looking at all these number the X1800 seems the best option now and as you can see: it is a huge difference compared to the x1600...

Zadillo
Jan 22, 2007, 03:08 PM
a Radeon x1800 or GeForce GO 7900 or something?

Compare, for example, the 3DMarks between this asus a7g notebook (http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.aspx?page=3&articleid=756&cid=2) with x1600 GPU and this dell xps m1710 notebook (http://www.mobilityguru.com/2006/04/18/dell_xps_m1710/page9.html) with GO 7900 gpu.

Asus A7G
http://www.hothardware.com/articleimages/Item756/3dm.png

Dell XPS M1710
http://images.tomshardware.com/2006/04/18/dell_xps_m1710/image027.gif

Note that the XPS M1710 is a behomoth 17" notebook. The thinnest notebook I've seen with a card like that is Toshiba's P105-S9722, which has a GeForce 7900GS, but is over 1.5 inches thick (and gets closer to 2 inches thick in the portion where the video card is).

The X1800, 7900 mobile GPU's can't reasonably be housed in anything less than those big 17" notebooks........... even if you managed to fit them into a 15" form factor, the heat would probably be a major problem. There's no conceivable way I could see for a card like those to fit into a 1" thick MBP chassis.

That's really the sticking point. There are more powerful mobile GPUs out there, but they require thicker and larger cases.

-Zadillo

Bern
Jan 22, 2007, 03:11 PM
Well whatever Apple might be updating the MBP to I hope it happens before May because that's when I'm getting one :D

MrCrowbar
Jan 22, 2007, 03:29 PM
Not to pick on MM, but have any of the posters here asking redundant questions on this redudant rumor, actually read the initial rumor thread? So now we know where AppleInsider really gets their scoops, Digitimes :p

The Samsung (read the other thread) 20in monitor that was just annouced that uses
http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20061104_0000298342

LED backlighting, is designed for professionals and as such those LED's are purpose specific, 114% of NTSC gamut. But that hardly means you'll get super accurate color on a commodity laptop from Apple. Meaning they don't necessarily require significanly greater costs to produce such a screen, mass produced led's are coming down in price all the time, especially the tiny size that would be needed for a backlight (also read my links on the other thread, re: OLED, not ready for prime time/economy of scale, but the fading blue issue has recently been worked out...unless you use your laptop everyday of they year and spend more than 8hrs each and everyday, otherwise don't sweat the 'limited' blue spectrum of the OLED when they finally go into production).

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=3269416&highlight=samsung+oled#post3269416

Believe it or not, I use my Macbook everyday for 8 hours or more. I use it for work, watching DVDs, watching TV, surfing etc... come to hink of it, I probably stare at a screen 12 hours of the day. Even when driving i got the GPS, who knows, I might go crazy I I don't see a screen for one whole day. I'm really anxious for OLEDs in big displays. The picture quality of those things is stellar, real black even in the dark, less ghosting even than CRT, ultra high framerates, no false colors if viewed at an angle. The fading blue can be adjusted by an automatically adjusting color profile I guess. You probably lose some gamut over time, but it won't really b noticeable I guess.

Don't traditional LCDs fade from white to beige overtime?

4np
Jan 22, 2007, 03:30 PM
Well whatever Apple might be updating the MBP to I hope it happens before May because that's when I'm getting one :D

I certainly hope it will be sooner that that... preferably march/april. :)

4np
Jan 22, 2007, 03:33 PM
Believe it or not, I use my Macbook everyday for 8 hours or more. I use it for work, watching DVDs, watching TV, surfing etc...

Me too, dvd, vlc, work, surfing, mailing, video editing and -like some overpriced stereo- for playing music to my airport express.

direzz
Jan 22, 2007, 03:51 PM
great, but an update that is late and also another reason for apple to raise their prices, or keep them at the same ridiculous price they are at now :)

Martin C
Jan 22, 2007, 04:07 PM
A video camera instead of just an isight
You can record video in iMovie using the iSight camera...

psychofreak
Jan 22, 2007, 04:12 PM
You can record video in iMovie using the iSight camera...

Even simpler is QT pro..

Plymouthbreezer
Jan 22, 2007, 04:13 PM
Exciting. :)

skeep5
Jan 22, 2007, 04:36 PM
This is what i've been waiting for, a better screen.

powermac_daddy
Jan 22, 2007, 04:59 PM
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2426

They seem to be moving from cold cathode fluorescent backlights (CCFLs) towards LED backlights.

"While pricer than CCFLs, LED technology is more efficient at distributing lighting evenly across the entire display surface and offers an increase in color saturation. According to a white paper from Cree, a backlight solutions provider expected to provide its LED technology to Apple, LED-based backlights also consume less power, run cooler, and last longer than CCFLs."

Sounds good to me. Just sold my Macbook so I even might wait for 2nd quarter of this year before buying a new one.


I did two years of lighting research in california. I played with many different types of LED, and made prototypes etc.... You say "less power, run cooler, and last longer than CCFLs."

I would say yes to "less power and last longer than CFLs". Indeed, LED is amazing. But run cooler? I'm not quite sure about that.

justflie
Jan 22, 2007, 05:03 PM
My main hope for a new MBP would be a better GPU. I guess, given some of the above posts, this might be difficult to do in such a thin notebook. This LED-lit display has my interest perked a little bit. I'm going to be waiting until Leopard and the next rev. of the macbook pro to buy one. Hopefully LED's will be in the cards by then. Anyone in the Massachusetts area wanna buy my iMac when that happens? :)

manu chao
Jan 22, 2007, 05:26 PM
Solution to fading blue: Adapt the color profile once in a while. Apple could make that automatic, so every few weeks of your screen being on, it turns up the blue a notch. The only bad thing about OLED is you can't read it in bright sunlight. That's what's cool about LCD, you can even read it with the backlight off, when there's enough natural light reflected by the panel. You can even shine a maglite through the Apple logo of your Macbook, it lightens up the screen quite a bit.

Solution to anybody worried about color accuracy: Calibrate your screen, for best results repeat every two weeks.

4np
Jan 22, 2007, 05:31 PM
iTV is already incorporating the HDMI port; will the revised MBP's have a HDMI port as well? Or will Apple push iTV as the HD device and never introduce a HDMI port in their other products?

A blue ray drive would also make sense, both for backup purposes (for example: video editting and digital photography require a lot of backup space) and playing HD media.

In comparison: the Sony Vaio AR series (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_BrowseCatalog-Start?CategoryName=cpu_VAIONotebookComputers_AR_Series&Dept=computers) is in the MBP price range and does offer blue-ray drive, TV tuner (nice but could do without), high resolution screen (1920x1200), GeForce Go 7600 (not standard) and a HDMI port... Note that this is a 17" notebook though.

Alchematron
Jan 22, 2007, 06:09 PM
Blu-Ray plus LED gets my vote!

Anyone else want Blu-Ray?

robphoton
Jan 22, 2007, 06:37 PM
While it is true you can have a thinner notebook and extended battery life with an LED backlit display, there are significant problems too.

First, in order to get the extended battery life you must use white LEDs because the colored LEDs are on average only about 1/3 as efficient. White LEDs provide far inferior color reproduction, yet are the most common backlights in cell phones and small portables.

The second problem with an LED backlit display is it does not have as long a life as a fluorescent backlit display. LEDs can have long life, but the low cost electronics supporting them do not. LED backlights on portables can have life as short as 5,000 hrs, while flourescent backlights may be 10X longer.

Most people may never log 5,000 hrs of use on their lap top during the life of the laptop, but I think they will be very annoyed at the poor color. The color can be improved by using different phosphors on the white LED, but the efficiency is worse, and battery life gets worse. Most people seem to want greater battery life over good color.

Analog Kid
Jan 22, 2007, 06:41 PM
re: OLED, not ready for prime time/economy of scale, but the fading blue issue has recently been worked out...unless you use your laptop everyday of they year and spend more than 8hrs each and everyday, otherwise don't sweat the 'limited' blue spectrum of the OLED when they finally go into production).
Rules out OLED for me...
I did two years of lighting research in california. I played with many different types of LED, and made prototypes etc.... You say "less power, run cooler, and last longer than CCFLs."

I would say yes to "less power and last longer than CFLs". Indeed, LED is amazing. But run cooler? I'm not quite sure about that.
Less power means it runs cooler... Heat might be localized differently, but less power means less heat (assuming you want the same brightness).

Analog Kid
Jan 22, 2007, 06:44 PM
The second problem with an LED backlit display is it does not have as long a life as a fluorescent backlit display. LEDs can have long life, but the low cost electronics supporting them do not. LED backlights on portables can have life as short as 5,000 hrs, while flourescent backlights may be 10X longer.
What exactly is failing? LEDs require much less support than CCFL...

oldwatery
Jan 22, 2007, 06:47 PM
While it is true you can have a thinner notebook and extended battery life with an LED backlit display, there are significant problems too.

First, in order to get the extended battery life you must use white LEDs because the colored LEDs are on average only about 1/3 as efficient. White LEDs provide far inferior color reproduction, yet are the most common backlights in cell phones and small portables.

The second problem with an LED backlit display is it does not have as long a life as a fluorescent backlit display. LEDs can have long life, but the low cost electronics supporting them do not. LED backlights on portables can have life as short as 5,000 hrs, while flourescent backlights may be 10X longer.

Most people may never log 5,000 hrs of use on their lap top during the life of the laptop, but I think they will be very annoyed at the poor color. The color can be improved by using different phosphors on the white LED, but the efficiency is worse, and battery life gets worse. Most people seem to want greater battery life over good color.

Are you saying this is a step backwards:confused:

SWC
Jan 22, 2007, 07:23 PM
It's a non-issue; you already have the functionality on all shipping MacBooks and MBPs, tapping two fingers on the trackpad.



For four buttons and scrolling? Is this a trick question?[/QUOTE]


I'm perfectly happy with the two finger right click I have grown to perfer it actually and find myself trying to use it on my work laptop too often but it all comes down to ego. The mighty mouse was a way to do a multi button mouse without having more than one physical button.

truz
Jan 22, 2007, 07:56 PM
I hope they offer this screen in there 12" widescreen model for the macbook pro (if they release one that is). I'm in great need of a laptop right now, but I'm trying to hold off for a 12" macbook pro as I need a small screen when I'm on the go with dedicated graphics.

Zadillo
Jan 22, 2007, 08:15 PM
I hope they offer this screen in there 12" widescreen model for the macbook pro (if they release one that is). I'm in great need of a laptop right now, but I'm trying to hold off for a 12" macbook pro as I need a small screen when I'm on the go with dedicated graphics.

What sort of dedicated graphics are you expecting to find in a 12" MacBook Pro (or any other 12" notebook for that matter)?

-Zadillo

Boxer
Jan 22, 2007, 08:23 PM
I am interested to see how these turn out. Anything will be better than the inconsistant quality that they have been putting out in the last few months. Luckily my last one is perfect. Can't say that about the first two.

digitalbiker
Jan 22, 2007, 10:14 PM
While it is true you can have a thinner notebook and extended battery life with an LED backlit display, there are significant problems too.

First, in order to get the extended battery life you must use white LEDs because the colored LEDs are on average only about 1/3 as efficient. White LEDs provide far inferior color reproduction, yet are the most common backlights in cell phones and small portables.

The second problem with an LED backlit display is it does not have as long a life as a fluorescent backlit display. LEDs can have long life, but the low cost electronics supporting them do not. LED backlights on portables can have life as short as 5,000 hrs, while flourescent backlights may be 10X longer.

Most people may never log 5,000 hrs of use on their lap top during the life of the laptop, but I think they will be very annoyed at the poor color. The color can be improved by using different phosphors on the white LED, but the efficiency is worse, and battery life gets worse. Most people seem to want greater battery life over good color.

What are you talking about? The LED is only used as a white backlight source. Color is provided by the LCD. The liquid crystal display when charged controls the color spectrum. LED's are placed behind the LCD and only used as a light source. They are not used to generate color. Also no phosphorous is used in these displays. The LED is a light emitting diode, and the LCD chnages spectrum depending on charge.

From reading your post I really don't know what the flip you are talking about. Either you are confusing the technolgy with something else. Or you are posting FUD to create post activity.

MrCrowbar
Jan 22, 2007, 11:21 PM
Solution to anybody worried about color accuracy: Calibrate your screen, for best results repeat every two weeks.

Oh, I actually don't care. the colors change when I move my head anyway, so why bother? :-)
Those calibration units are pretty expensive. I had to use them quite a bit when I was at a newspaper company and the pictures on photoshop had to be just like the printouts on beige newspaper. Adding a little cyan actually makes white seem even more white on newspapers.

soapsuds
Jan 22, 2007, 11:51 PM
What are you talking about? The LED is only used as a white backlight source. Color is provided by the LCD. The liquid crystal display when charged controls the color spectrum. LED's are placed behind the LCD and only used as a light source. They are not used to generate color. Also no phosphorous is used in these displays. The LED is a light emitting diode, and the LCD chnages spectrum depending on charge.

From reading your post I really don't know what the flip you are talking about. Either you are confusing the technolgy with something else. Or you are posting FUD to create post activity.

Huh? LCDs can only remove or reduce various frequencies that are present in the backlighting (white light is basically an equal proportion of all visible frequencies). They can't add light or change the frequency of existing light. If the backlight changes color, that will effect the ability of the display to reproduce color. For instance, if it turns yellow, that means that blues will not be full intensity even if it is recalibrated. LEDs can only emit a single-frequency color. "White" LEDs are actually a blue LED that excites a phosphor coating which in turn gives off white light. The phosphor can degrade over time.

synth3tik
Jan 22, 2007, 11:53 PM
Hummmm, that might be just enought to push me into selling my powerbook for a Macbook pro:D

4np
Jan 23, 2007, 12:48 AM
I don't understand that everybody here is getting so enthousiastic about leds. Sure I want the display to look good but as far as I care it can be leds or regular backlights. I'm interested to the spec changes I can really use (blue-ray, high res, gpu etc) instead of lighting and lighting. Sure, if it saves a lot of battery and it works as well as a regular backlight that's fine with me of course but the other specs have my real interest...

UKFletch
Jan 23, 2007, 06:22 AM
The problem is (as always) are they going to stealth this upgrade (or upgrades) out, or will they make a big song and dance. During the keynote SJ did say that it wasn't about that Mac that day, and there was also a report that there would be some more news SOON.

So I ask, when is "soon". I am in the market for a MBPro, but will need one is about 4 weeks when the wife steals my Dell for her OU course. So, if March is soon, I could wait a week or so, if it's June/July, then I will have to buy, and then read NO MORE sites ever, to avoid that robbed feeling.

Anyone any ideas when they may reveal the deal???

Fletch

Zadillo
Jan 23, 2007, 08:15 AM
I don't understand that everybody here is getting so enthousiastic about leds. Sure I want the display to look good but as far as I care it can be leds or regular backlights. I'm interested to the spec changes I can really use (blue-ray, high res, gpu etc) instead of lighting and lighting. Sure, if it saves a lot of battery and it works as well as a regular backlight that's fine with me of course but the other specs have my real interest...

I'm not sure if you were actually looking for an explanation for why people are enthusiastic about this, but I will tell you why I am at least:

1) I got a C2D MacBook Pro and thought it was an excellent laptop overall, except for one thing; the backlighting on it was uneven and distracting (when looking at it straight on, the right half of the screen was darker than the other; it was impossible to view a single solid color uniformly across the entire screen). I found this same problem in a replacement and just about every other MacBook Pro at the Apple Store, and thus had to return it. This was disappointing because aside from the screen, it was about as close to perfect as a laptop as I've ever seen.

2) I have already seen and been wowed by the LED backlighting in Sony's TX Vaio laptops, and their premium SZ Vaio laptops. The screens were brighter and more evenly lit, and looked much better to me than the comparable Apple laptops. I would even go so far as to say I was almost considering buying a Vaio for the screen, even if it meant giving up OS X.

So, in conclusion, I'm excited about this because, if Apple does use this screen technology in the upcoming MacBook Pro revisions, it will basically fix the one major issue I have with them, and will make them just about as close to the perfect laptop for me as exists on the market right now.

L3X
Jan 23, 2007, 09:16 AM
I'm with you Zadillo.

rt_brained
Jan 23, 2007, 09:27 AM
Hurry up and release the new MBP's before I blow all my money on hookers and crack.

And MetRx bars (One must eat healthy to remain healthy.).

EGT
Jan 23, 2007, 10:02 AM
This upcoming revision won't include Santa Rosa will it?

If it's a similar logic board/processor to the current MBP, I wonder if they'll add any other new features apart from LED displays. Case redesign, magnetic latch, easier removal/installation of HDD? These are all fairly plausible and it would be one hell of a computer. :eek:

And then when Santa Rosa comes with 800MHz FSB, larger RAM capacity .... WOW.

Zadillo
Jan 23, 2007, 10:21 AM
This upcoming revision won't include Santa Rosa will it?

If it's a similar logic board/processor to the current MBP, I wonder if they'll add any other new features apart from LED displays. Case redesign, magnetic latch, easier removal/installation of HDD? These are all fairly plausible and it would be one hell of a computer. :eek:

And then when Santa Rosa comes with 800MHz FSB, larger RAM capacity .... WOW.

I think it depends on when these revisions are due. Personally I would assume that Apple isn't going to do some interim update to the MBP between now and May/June (or whenever the Santa Rosa-based MBP's show up), so I would think these screen updates would coincide with the new Santa Rosa MBP's.

4np
Jan 23, 2007, 12:06 PM
I think it depends on when these revisions are due. Personally I would assume that Apple isn't going to do some interim update to the MBP between now and May/June (or whenever the Santa Rosa-based MBP's show up), so I would think these screen updates would coincide with the new Santa Rosa MBP's.

I agree, I think Santa Rosa plus other improvements will be in the next MBP revisions. On the other hand... Apple was quite slow to incorporate the C2D in the MBP range...

I'm not sure if you were actually looking for an explanation for why people are enthusiastic about this, but I will tell you why I am at least...

Zadillo, I can totally sympathise with your reasons :) However, the backlight distribution could also be fixed by changing the current (old style?) backlighting. Of course you won't hear me complain if they do introduce LED's but I'd rather see a fixed backlighting (with or without led's) and interesting hardware upgrades like Santa Rose, better GPU, High Resolution displays, blue-ray, etc...

But I totally agree the backlighting should be evenly distributed; it is unacceptable this occurs in a (pricy) Pro range notebook...

Zadillo
Jan 23, 2007, 12:09 PM
I agree, I think Santa Rosa plus other improvements will be in the next MBP revisions. On the other hand... Apple was quite slow to incorporate the C2D in the MBP range...



Zadillo, I can totally sympathise with your reasons :) However, the backlighting could also be fixed by regular backlighting. Of course you won't hear me complain if they do introduce LED's but I'd rather see a fixed backlighting (with or without led's) and interesting hardware upgrades like Santa Rose, GPU, High Resolution displays, etc... But I totally agree the backlighting should be evenly distributed; it is unacceptable this occurs in a Pro range (prixy) notebook...

I think the only reason Apple was relatively slower to incorporate C2D in the MBP range is because they were also making other improvements to the case design (specifically the changed vents, etc.). Pretty much every other laptop manufacturer just swapped out CD chips for C2D chips and called it a day, making it easier to release sooner.

Anyway, it's true that Apple could fix the issue with better standard LCD backlighting, but I would just as soon see them switch to the better LED backlighting anyway.

And again, I don't think Apple is just going to swap out the screens in some interim update. I think they will bring out this backlighting, if they do, to coincide with the rest of the expected updates to the MBP line (Santa Rosa, some case changes perhaps, etc.).

UKFletch
Jan 23, 2007, 12:42 PM
OK, I understand all the talk of LED lit screens and how much better they are, Santa Rosa an how much better it is, a better GPU and how much wowser it will be etc.

BUT WHEN?

This is my ONLY problem with Apple. They get us all wound up with rumors of new iterations, and then fail to give ANY tangible dates.

Let me make myself, and a lot of other peoples, view clear;

1. We know tech changes.

2. We like shiney things.

3. We want to buy a Macbook of some form now.

4. We would like the chance to know if we need to wait.


If by waiting a few weeks we get more suitable machine for our needs then fine, but being in a constant state of "should I have waited another day" is stupid, and does put people off. And hey how do we know or not if we need to wait if all we have to go on is speculation.

It's one thing if the changes are every year or two and there is a massive range of products, but Apple DOES NOT have a massive range of products, but it seems to change systems by stealth, overnight, randomly, without ANY warning. I know that this makes Apple UNIQUE, but it also sucks imho.

What do you think. I encourage constructive criticism :)

Fletch

Zadillo
Jan 23, 2007, 12:46 PM
OK, I understand all the talk of LED lit screens and how much better they are, Santa Rosa an how much better it is, a better GPU and how much wowser it will be etc.

BUT WHEN?

This is my ONLY problem with Apple. They get us all wound up with rumors of new iterations, and then fail to give ANY tangible dates.

Let me make myself, and a lot of other peoples, view clear;

1. We know tech changes.

2. We like shiney things.

3. We want to buy a Macbook of some form now.

4. We would like the chance to know if we need to wait (i.e. the next one is so much better it's worth the wait or NOT!).


If by waiting a few weeks we get more bang for buck then fine, but being in a constant state of "should I have waited another day" is stupid, and does put people off.

It's one thing the changes are every year or two and there is a massive range of products, but Apple DOES NOT have a massive range of products, but seem to change them by stealth, overnight, randomly, without ANY warning. And that sucks imho.

What do you think. I encourage constructive criticism :)

Fletch

Honestly I don't think Apple is THAT different from anyone else.

Do you know what or when Dell or Sony's Santa Rosa laptops will come out, what their specs will be, any details like changes to case designs, etc.? I don't know, because Sony and Dell don't really release these kinds of details any more than Apple does.

If anything, Apple's release schedule has become more predictable since the Intel switch (i.e. when C2D chips were unveiled, we knew that we could expect MB and MBP updates soon, for example).

oldwatery
Jan 23, 2007, 01:19 PM
I don't understand that everybody here is getting so enthousiastic about leds. Sure I want the display to look good but as far as I care it can be leds or regular backlights. I'm interested to the spec changes I can really use (blue-ray, high res, gpu etc) instead of lighting and lighting. Sure, if it saves a lot of battery and it works as well as a regular backlight that's fine with me of course but the other specs have my real interest...

I guess you haven't been reading any of the threads concerning bad MBP displays:rolleyes:

It goes beyond enthusiasm for those of us who have been trying in vain to get a decent display on our $3000 lap tops.

I am about to call Apple and get a refund on my 3rd machine. I will wait out the next few months in the hope that my dream machine will be arriving with this next revision.

Specs are all well and good if the machine lives up to them. But you can keep your gpu and bluray upgrades and I'll take a reasonably color accurate and even lit display over any of that other stuff.

Chef Medeski
Jan 23, 2007, 06:26 PM
I don't understand that everybody here is getting so enthousiastic about leds. Sure I want the display to look good but as far as I care it can be leds or regular backlights. I'm interested to the spec changes I can really use (blue-ray, high res, gpu etc) instead of lighting and lighting. Sure, if it saves a lot of battery and it works as well as a regular backlight that's fine with me of course but the other specs have my real interest...
Umm... blupray, gpu, these are things that are pretty infeasible or only adhere to a very few percent of users. LED would help not only all through better screen but more battery. So... while you basically want a Mac Pro you can carry around. We want a decent laptop. I'm not going to be doing Video-editing on mine, if you are I suggest you buy a desktop. Just the price alone to put in a really crappy Blu-ray player could most likely buy you a used or refurbished G5 PowerMac. That would most likely be more useful to you.

I think the only reason Apple was relatively slower to incorporate C2D in the MBP range is because they were also making other improvements to the case design (specifically the changed vents, etc.). Pretty much every other laptop manufacturer just swapped out CD chips for C2D chips and called it a day, making it easier to release sooner.

Anyway, it's true that Apple could fix the issue with better standard LCD backlighting, but I would just as soon see them switch to the better LED backlighting anyway.

And again, I don't think Apple is just going to swap out the screens in some interim update. I think they will bring out this backlighting, if they do, to coincide with the rest of the expected updates to the MBP line (Santa Rosa, some case changes perhaps, etc.).

Yes because vents take forever. Well lets say vents to take a lot time, you have to build prototypes and test them for various effects on heat. Could take you months. Too bad they had the chip atleast 6 months b4 the release. So why didnt they switch so fast, they still had CD chips in stock. Dont give me the bullcrap of they had to change the vents.... oooooohhh. Really working there in an update. :rolleyes:

Somehow other companies can innovate, put in new technologies, and still roll out new models each month including ones a week after a very big new component is made available shows that Apple knows they can milk their customers a bit more.

justflie
Jan 23, 2007, 07:46 PM
Yes because vents take forever. Well lets say vents to take a lot time, you have to build prototypes and test them for various effects on heat. Could take you months. Too bad they had the chip atleast 6 months b4 the release. So why didnt they switch so fast, they still had CD chips in stock. Dont give me the bullcrap of they had to change the vents.... oooooohhh. Really working there in an update. :rolleyes:


And besides, there's plenty of great engineering software out there that can model heat transfers in solid models quite well. They wouldn't even (necessarily) have to test a prototype for long, just long enough to confirm their numerical data with the experimental from the prototype.

Zadillo
Jan 23, 2007, 07:50 PM
Yes because vents take forever. Well lets say vents to take a lot time, you have to build prototypes and test them for various effects on heat. Could take you months. Too bad they had the chip atleast 6 months b4 the release. So why didnt they switch so fast, they still had CD chips in stock. Dont give me the bullcrap of they had to change the vents.... oooooohhh. Really working there in an update. :rolleyes:

Somehow other companies can innovate, put in new technologies, and still roll out new models each month including ones a week after a very big new component is made available shows that Apple knows they can milk their customers a bit more.

Yeesh, what's your beef? You seem to be trying to criticize everything about Apple.

Yes, there could be other reasons too that Apple didn't release C2D MBP's immediately, but it's not like they delayed them terribly. We don't know the details though.

What does innovating have to do with sticking C2D chips in a laptop? It doesn't require innovation to do that; Apple probably could have done that if they wanted, and not made the changes the existing MBP (or as you suggest, they possibly could have had the new cases ready before).

Also, most companies took a fair amount of time to actually have C2D laptops on the market. The big difference was that they announced them almost immediately, but actual availability on the market was usually a month later at best. It wasn't that much farther until Apple came out with C2D MBP's.

Anyway, milk their customers for a bit more? Give me a break. Dell continues to sell Core Duo systems even today.

Why the heck are we even focusing on this anyway? The CPU upgrade wasn't that big a deal anyway.

-Zadillo

oldwatery
Jan 23, 2007, 08:10 PM
Somehow other companies can innovate, put in new technologies, and still roll out new models each month including ones a week after a very big new component is made available shows that Apple knows they can milk their customers a bit more.

Getting off track a bit...but are you seriously accusing Apple of not innovating :eek:

As for Apple milking customers....if you feel like a cow then I guess you can expect to get milked ;)

New products every month. Why

Apple annoy the hell out of me sometimes......but I'd hate to not have them in my life in a big way:D

sorry about all the emoticons:p

oldwatery
Jan 23, 2007, 08:14 PM
So my question remains...

Is the announcement of lcd panels a good thing?

Will it put and end to the current MBP screen problems?

I need to know.

I need relief :(

Zadillo
Jan 23, 2007, 08:18 PM
So my question remains...

Is the announcement of lcd panels a good thing?

Will it put and end to the current MBP screen problems?

I need to know.

I need relief :(

If they are similar quality to the LED backlighting displays that Sony uses on some of their premium systems, then yes, it should be a notable improvement over current MBP screens.

Chef Medeski
Jan 23, 2007, 08:18 PM
Yeesh, what's your beef? You seem to be trying to criticize everything about Apple.

Yes, there could be other reasons too that Apple didn't release C2D MBP's immediately, but it's not like they delayed them terribly. We don't know the details though.

What does innovating have to do with sticking C2D chips in a laptop? It doesn't require innovation to do that; Apple probably could have done that if they wanted, and not made the changes the existing MBP (or as you suggest, they possibly could have had the new cases ready before).

Also, most companies took a fair amount of time to actually have C2D laptops on the market. The big difference was that they announced them almost immediately, but actual availability on the market was usually a month later at best. It wasn't that much farther until Apple came out with C2D MBP's.

Anyway, milk their customers for a bit more? Give me a break. Dell continues to sell Core Duo systems even today.

Why the heck are we even focusing on this anyway? The CPU upgrade wasn't that big a deal anyway.

-Zadillo
I have beef with Apple because they charge a premium. Be it a quality product, premium stuff. Either way its supposed to be upscale and if Im going to pay extra for extra goods that means being critical of them. I love OS X to deeath. And my 12" PB is my favorite computer. But..... I am critical, Im not demanding outrageous things, 8 hr battery life, 3 GHz CPU, Blu-Ray. I would like some more rational useful features to reemerge to justify the price. They want to charge a premium. Fine. Yet, justify it so people buy it. I paid the extra cash for a PB, I am given the right to be critical of their hardware. When you pay hundreds of dollars more than competiting hardware, you get the right to be critical.

Zadillo
Jan 23, 2007, 08:22 PM
I have beef with Apple because they charge a premium. Be it a quality product, premium stuff. Either way its supposed to be upscale and if Im going to pay extra for extra goods that means being critical of them. I love OS X to deeath. And my 12" PB is my favorite computer. But..... I am critical, Im not demanding outrageous things, 8 hr battery life, 3 GHz CPU, Blu-Ray. I would like some more rational useful features to reemerge to justify the price. They want to charge a premium. Fine. Yet, justify it so people buy it. I paid the extra cash for a PB, I am given the right to be critical of their hardware. When you pay hundreds of dollars more than competiting hardware, you get the right to be critical.

I agree, rational useful features would be nice. I just personally don't think that SideShow is really that useful a feature, personally.

I expect Apple is doing some interesting things with their future portables; but these are just opinions. If the SideShow features really impress you though, I think you might be better off getting that Asus or maybe that new Toshiba tablet; if tablet functionality and sideshow displays to show you the number of new e-mails you have, etc. impress you, I think you'll see it on those systems before you'd see Apple implement them.

Chef Medeski
Jan 23, 2007, 08:34 PM
I agree, rational useful features would be nice. I just personally don't think that SideShow is really that useful a feature, personally.

I expect Apple is doing some interesting things with their future portables; but these are just opinions. If the SideShow features really impress you though, I think you might be better off getting that Asus or maybe that new Toshiba tablet; if tablet functionality and sideshow displays to show you the number of new e-mails you have, etc. impress you, I think you'll see it on those systems before you'd see Apple implement them.
Yeah they are cool but not neccesairly something I would really care for. I really would love a wi-fi finder though. Plus buttons for BT and Wi-fi since I often turn them off and on. Those would be greatly useful features. Those are easy to implement. Not very intrusive. I dont see why Apple doesnt do these little things anymore before it seemed like anything little, fun and innovative thing they could do they would in order to make a very appealing package to counter their under powered PBs. I guess now that they are not underpowered, they dont think they need to do the fun little Apple things to hold sales as Q1 sales actually prove. A body that has been around practically 5 years with only minor bumps and updates ( I mean the case not the innards) is really playing it conservative. Plus there are many noted disadvangates of the Alumminum and even precurser Titanium books. Bend easy. Bad Wireless reception. Probably add heft. I mean they have known about these things and taken no effort, atleast none that the consumer has seen, whatsoever to remedy these. I really hope the next rev. of the MacBook Pro is going to be good because I want to buy a laptop from Apple. But really I dont want just a larger, faster version of my 12" PB.

History of little thing updates:

Jan. 7, 2003: Al Books. Backlit keyboard.
Jan. 31, 2005: Added scrollin trackpad. Sudden Motion Sensor.
Jan. 10, 2006: Magsafe. iSight.

4 new things in the past 4 years. Kinda sad. If you count Backlit keyboards thats 5 in the past like 8 years.

Plus scrolling trackpad could already done. And Sudden Motion Sensor barely counts since its more of an innard safety feature than a full blown, bell or whistle.

So... you are pushing it at his level and when you compare this to Windows where they now have Linux distros, wi-fi buttons, wi-fi finders, sudden motion sensor equivalents, spill-proof keyboard, media buttons (something Apple would have a lot easier time implementing).

I mean come on Apple. Dont tell me they are innovating. Dropping in an Intel chip, the industry standard to replace an old, slow processor doesnt count as innovative merely as obvious. And the only reason it didnt happen previously is ego.

Zadillo
Jan 23, 2007, 08:52 PM
Yeah they are cool but not neccesairly something I would really care for. I really would love a wi-fi finder though. Plus buttons for BT and Wi-fi since I often turn them off and on. Those would be greatly useful features. Those are easy to implement. Not very intrusive. I dont see why Apple doesnt do these little things anymore before it seemed like anything little, fun and innovative thing they could do they would in order to make a very appealing package to counter their under powered PBs. I guess now that they are not underpowered, they dont think they need to do the fun little Apple things to hold sales as Q1 sales actually prove. A body that has been around practically 5 years with only minor bumps and updates ( I mean the case not the innards) is really playing it conservative. Plus there are many noted disadvangates of the Alumminum and even precurser Titanium books. Bend easy. Bad Wireless reception. Probably add heft. I mean they have known about these things and taken no effort, atleast none that the consumer has seen, whatsoever to remedy these. I really hope the next rev. of the MacBook Pro is going to be good because I want to buy a laptop from Apple. But really I dont want just a larger, faster version of my 12" PB.

History of little thing updates:

Jan. 7, 2003: Al Books. Backlit keyboard.
Jan. 31, 2005: Added scrollin trackpad. Sudden Motion Sensor.
Jan. 10, 2006: Magsafe. iSight.

4 new things in the past 4 years. Kinda sad. If you count Backlit keyboards thats 5 in the past like 8 years.

Plus scrolling trackpad could already done. And Sudden Motion Sensor barely counts since its more of an innard safety feature than a full blown, bell or whistle.

So... you are pushing it at his level and when you compare this to Windows where they now have Linux distros, wi-fi buttons, wi-fi finders, sudden motion sensor equivalents, spill-proof keyboard, media buttons (something Apple would have a lot easier time implementing).

I mean come on Apple. Dont tell me they are innovating. Dropping in an Intel chip, the industry standard to replace an old, slow processor doesnt count as innovative merely as obvious. And the only reason it didnt happen previously is ego.

Fair enough, although I have to be honest..... as a former Toshiba and Sony Vaio owner, I didn't see any major changes there either. Hell, Sony's been using the same basic S series design (now with the SZ) for a few years now.

I don't know though, based on the things that you said appeal to you, like hardware wi-fi finders (what exactly is the use of this? You take your laptop out and check the wifi finder before turning it on or something?) or the media player functions, I just don't think Apple is the right platform for you.

Again, I think it comes down to taste. I had a laptop with one of those media player things (the thing that you can boot into directly without having to boot into Windows), but I found it to be almost worthless. I much preferred actually booting into Windows and using the player software I wanted to, which I found to be much better interface wise. It's one of those things that seems more like a gimmick to me, personally, and not practically useful.

Hardware wireless buttons are nice I guess, but I only liked them on PC laptops because I found it to be more of a pain in the ass to turn wifi and bluetooth on and off; I didn't have a problem with just doing it from the OS X menus for those items.

Frankly, in terms of practical innovations, I would take the MagSafe adaptor over any of those other things, because it is something that really does help from a hardware perspective.

Anyway, I think it is still a big stretch to say that Apple hasn't been doing anything. You mentioned tablet PC's, for example, but I think a lot of those have not done well because the hardware hasn't been up to what the hopes are.

Like the iPhone or hate it, it points to a lot of the work Apple has been doing on completely new interfaces, etc. I would venture to say it might be a preview of things to come if Apple does ever come out with a touchscreen portable of some type or other.

But it's an example of what Apple does do that really is innovation; I think it compares favorably to MS's half-assed Tablet PC version of Windows, for example.

-Zadillo

Chef Medeski
Jan 23, 2007, 09:14 PM
I don't know though, based on the things that you said appeal to you, like hardware wi-fi finders (what exactly is the use of this?

The use of this is when I want to go online but I'm downtown or on campus. I want to see if I have wireless before actually opening the computer turning the wi-fi on and checking. If it doesnt have this then I wouldnt have to do all that just put the computer back in my bag.

Plus I've often been going places by car then I get lose. I want to get online to get some directions but end up driving around with an open PB in the right side checking for spots. And once I had to brake slighly hard and the computer went and dropped on the floor.

Now if it had a wi-fi finder on it, say on the bottom. I would jsut turn it over. Press it until I see a signal. And then use it. Much better!


Anyway, I think it is still a big stretch to say that Apple hasn't been doing anything. You mentioned tablet PC's, for example, but I think a lot of those have not done well because the hardware hasn't been up to what the hopes are.

Like the iPhone or hate it, it points to a lot of the work Apple has been doing on completely new interfaces, etc. I would venture to say it might be a preview of things to come if Apple does ever come out with a touchscreen portable of some type or other.

But it's an example of what Apple does do that really is innovation; I think it compares favorably to MS's half-assed Tablet PC version of Windows, for example.

-Zadillo
I'm not saying Apple hasnt been doing anything. Just not anything Hardware wise that we have seen. The only case redesign was the Macbook and that was really a mere widening of the case. Well with a couple nice things like Mag latch. Magsafe. Swappable hard drives. 13.3" screen and iSight. But it wasnt like they redesigned a feature. Just changed components or added components that were out there. Nothing really new. Everything else. The case has been the same for years such as the PB, since the G5, or since its introduction such as the Mini Mac.

Now I do agree for MS to put a very clunky, pen-based Tablet PCs that were underpowered and short on battery life was stupid. My father bought one and really only liked it as a slate to look at webpages while sleeping on the couch. Slate is really the best way to go. A lot of Slates have been emerging that have good specs. Are touch-screens. Its very good. The only thing people say is where is the keyboard. But I have found one with a very nice on screen keyboard a la the UMPC. Which means thumb tapping. It makes for an insatiable product. Only problem is that it runs Windows.

But thing about it. A MacBook like Axiotron put out. But with Multi-touch like the iPhone. So then firstly you wouldnt need a pen but a finger. A stylus though is neccessary for writing recognition. Plus you could type in various positions, like a normal keyboard, a dynamic UMPC keyboard, writing recognition. Plus with pinch and stuff you could add a whole new level to OS X. Thing of pinching the screen to zoom in on say a program. Yet due to Resolution Independence the menu bar and dock are refitted to the same size. Plus the applications is smoothed out so it looks like you have merely maximized the window when you have just looked more closely at it. Think of it this way. You have a nice big desk. You cover it in papers. The closer you moved your head towards the desk, the bigger things seem along with a smaller scope. Yet nothing gets fuzzy or blurry. Now add a menu bar and dock that would float and shrink down to those size with you. And you have just created a VERY INTERESTING, USEFUL virtual desktop. Its much more realistic in that you can have apps open that are off screen while stile being open and quickly seen, not minimized, the quivalent of storing something in a drawer. I think thats very innovative. And Apple has the power to do it unlike any other company at this point. Its tight Hardware/Software integration with multi-touch patents would make it a great canidate. Any other manufacturer would have to design a multi-touch thing then beg Windows to support it let alone develop for it. Apple has the technology. And since the software is right there could tell the guys ok, I know you have been working on Resolution INdpenpendence. Could you make this work? Of course Steve, not a problem. Suddenly you have a Tablet that has a virtual desktop space larger than the actual resolution. It would be amazing for smaller 12-14" screens. You could fit something the size of 20". Zoom out to see what you want. Then just pinch on the app ur using at the time such as say Word to easily see it. While being able to quickly slide over to the e-mail you have right next to you. No fiddling with the mouse. With virtual desktops or minimized apps. No pressing Expose. That is a revolution in how you use a computer. And its easy to implement, all the technologies right there. And this simple thing of devleoping the first virtual desktop larger than the actual resoltuion would be hallmarked as a grand innovation in computer technology.

Computer is about to change. The hardware limitations of yester year are slowly erroding as can be seen with a less push for more power, but more efficiency. We already cant find anything to do with all that computing power. Yet this power will allow for radical changes in UI. Soon you will see a more natural, flowing UI with multi-touch screens. Once the revolution in batteries occurs, it will be done. Laptops will become no longer computer. But virtual desks, filing cabinets, TVs that can go anywhere with you. Its coming. It wont be long. Will it be in 2007? Its only the beginning (or was that the first 30 yrs). ;)

Zadillo
Jan 23, 2007, 09:26 PM
The use of this is when I want to go online but I'm downtown or on campus. I want to see if I have wireless before actually opening the computer turning the wi-fi on and checking. If it doesnt have this then I wouldnt have to do all that just put the computer back in my bag.

Plus I've often been going places by car then I get lose. I want to get online to get some directions but end up driving around with an open PB in the right side checking for spots. And once I had to brake slighly hard and the computer went and dropped on the floor.

Now if it had a wi-fi finder on it, say on the bottom. I would jsut turn it over. Press it until I see a signal. And then use it. Much better!


I'm not saying Apple hasnt been doing anything. Just not anything Hardware wise that we have seen. The only case redesign was the Macbook and that was really a mere widening of the case. Well with a couple nice things like Mag latch. Magsafe. Swappable hard drives. 13.3" screen and iSight. But it wasnt like they redesigned a feature. Just changed components or added components that were out there. Nothing really new. Everything else. The case has been the same for years such as the PB, since the G5, or since its introduction such as the Mini Mac.

Now I do agree for MS to put a very clunky, pen-based Tablet PCs that were underpowered and short on battery life was stupid. My father bought one and really only liked it as a slate to look at webpages while sleeping on the couch. Slate is really the best way to go. A lot of Slates have been emerging that have good specs. Are touch-screens. Its very good. The only thing people say is where is the keyboard. But I have found one with a very nice on screen keyboard a la the UMPC. Which means thumb tapping. It makes for an insatiable product. Only problem is that it runs Windows.

But thing about it. A MacBook like Axiotron put out. But with Multi-touch like the iPhone. So then firstly you wouldnt need a pen but a finger. A stylus though is neccessary for writing recognition. Plus you could type in various positions, like a normal keyboard, a dynamic UMPC keyboard, writing recognition. Plus with pinch and stuff you could add a whole new level to OS X. Thing of pinching the screen to zoom in on say a program. Yet due to Resolution Independence the menu bar and dock are refitted to the same size. Plus the applications is smoothed out so it looks like you have merely maximized the window when you have just looked more closely at it. Think of it this way. You have a nice big desk. You cover it in papers. The closer you moved your head towards the desk, the bigger things seem along with a smaller scope. Yet nothing gets fuzzy or blurry. Now add a menu bar and dock that would float and shrink down to those size with you. And you have just created a VERY INTERESTING, USEFUL virtual desktop. Its much more realistic in that you can have apps open that are off screen while stile being open and quickly seen, not minimized, the quivalent of storing something in a drawer. I think thats very innovative. And Apple has the power to do it unlike any other company at this point. Its tight Hardware/Software integration with multi-touch patents would make it a great canidate. Any other manufacturer would have to design a multi-touch thing then beg Windows to support it let alone develop for it. Apple has the technology. And since the software is right there could tell the guys ok, I know you have been working on Resolution INdpenpendence. Could you make this work? Of course Steve, not a problem. Suddenly you have a Tablet that has a virtual desktop space larger than the actual resolution. It would be amazing for smaller 12-14" screens. You could fit something the size of 20". Zoom out to see what you want. Then just pinch on the app ur using at the time such as say Word to easily see it. While being able to quickly slide over to the e-mail you have right next to you. No fiddling with the mouse. With virtual desktops or minimized apps. No pressing Expose. That is a revolution in how you use a computer. And its easy to implement, all the technologies right there. And this simple thing of devleoping the first virtual desktop larger than the actual resoltuion would be hallmarked as a grand innovation in computer technology.

Computer is about to change. The hardware limitations of yester year are slowly erroding as can be seen with a less push for more power, but more efficiency. We already cant find anything to do with all that computing power. Yet this power will allow for radical changes in UI. Soon you will see a more natural, flowing UI with multi-touch screens. Once the revolution in batteries occurs, it will be done. Laptops will become no longer computer. But virtual desks, filing cabinets, TVs that can go anywhere with you. Its coming. It wont be long. Will it be in 2007? Its only the beginning (or was that the first 30 yrs). ;)

Regarding the wi-fi finder; I think I understand what you're saying, but personally for the uses you described, I think it would be a lot more convenient to just use one of those keychain wi-fi finder things, rather than having to take your whole laptop and push some wi-fi finder button on it (especially if you carry your laptop in a laptop bag).

Regarding the computer stuff; I agree with you. I think things will be changing, and I don't think Apple is just sitting idly by.

I read one interview with one of the Apple Engineers, and they were actually explaining why they avoided doing any major changes to coincide with the switch to Intel. They pointed out that they specifically wanted to make the new Intel-based Macs look like the existing Macs, to reinforce the idea that these were still Macs. The feeling was that a radically new design, etc. might throw people off and fuel the "It's no longer a Mac!" kind of worrying.

I suspect that in 2007 and 2008 we will be seeing more significant overhauls of the Mac product line, and possibly new devices as well (i.e. a larger tablet-type system that might even use something similar to the new iPhone interface).

Chef Medeski
Jan 23, 2007, 09:39 PM
Regarding the wi-fi finder; I think I understand what you're saying, but personally for the uses you described, I think it would be a lot more convenient to just use one of those keychain wi-fi finder things, rather than having to take your whole laptop and push some wi-fi finder button on it (especially if you carry your laptop in a laptop bag).

Regarding the computer stuff; I agree with you. I think things will be changing, and I don't think Apple is just sitting idly by.

I read one interview with one of the Apple Engineers, and they were actually explaining why they avoided doing any major changes to coincide with the switch to Intel. They pointed out that they specifically wanted to make the new Intel-based Macs look like the existing Macs, to reinforce the idea that these were still Macs. The feeling was that a radically new design, etc. might throw people off and fuel the "It's no longer a Mac!" kind of worrying.

I suspect that in 2007 and 2008 we will be seeing more significant overhauls of the Mac product line, and possibly new devices as well (i.e. a larger tablet-type system that might even use something similar to the new iPhone interface).
I hope for that tablet-type device. Right now I'm eyeing a replacement for my 12" PB. A tablet is what I want, but OS X is what I need. So, out of the current offerings I'm lookina t a 15" Pro. I'm goin wait for Santa Rosa though since I got a few months to spare and I really like what Ive been hearing about that. Yet, if they released a 13 or 12" MBP, Id be hard pressed to actually get the 15" since I love my cuddling ability of my 12". MacRumors in bed is the most addictive, unproductive, and fun thing you can do. Now if there is a 12/13" tablet. Done deal. Its mine. 12/13" MBP, I'll probably think about it for a week or two and end up with the smaller one since chick love the 12" :cool: .


But note Apple. I would probably pay like $2500 for a Laptop that was multi-touch. $2200 for a Laptop that was merely a touch screen as long as they incorporated a dynamic keyboard a la UMPC (actually knowing Mac users, there will be an add-on within a month). So yeah over $2000, that more than I would be willing to spend on a MB Pro 15". Listen Apple... listen. Please. Dont make me beg. :o

iW00t
Jan 24, 2007, 09:51 PM
I always thought the colour is produced by light shining through the liquid crystals in the LCD display? How does changing the light actually result in richer colours? :confused:

LastZion
Jan 24, 2007, 11:09 PM
I always thought the colour is produced by light shining through the liquid crystals in the LCD display? How does changing the light actually result in richer colours? :confused:

That is what I thougt as well... perhaps we are missing something

Zadillo
Jan 25, 2007, 08:17 AM
I always thought the colour is produced by light shining through the liquid crystals in the LCD display? How does changing the light actually result in richer colours? :confused:

There might be more to it than just the LED backlighting. But frankly, even better illumination can make colors look better.

This is probably a poor comparison, but think of a Stained Glass window. If the light shining through it is poorer, less bright, uneven, etc. the stained glass will seem duller, etc. But if it is full and bright, the color of the stained glass will shine through much better.

iW00t
Jan 25, 2007, 01:56 PM
There might be more to it than just the LED backlighting. But frankly, even better illumination can make colors look better.

This is probably a poor comparison, but think of a Stained Glass window. If the light shining through it is poorer, less bright, uneven, etc. the stained glass will seem duller, etc. But if it is full and bright, the color of the stained glass will shine through much better.

Ahh ok. But I still believe the screen itself has a more important role. No matter how bright your light is, if you have a dirty and dusty screen all you will see through the stained glass will be a grainy and dirty looking picture.

There are plenty of PeeCee laptops with better looking LCDs that uses the old backlighting technology, what makes this some revolutionary break through all of a sudden? Somehow I think even with this new backlight technology all we will get is just another grainy looking display with lousy washed out colours... but brighter (as though brighter is even a metric for screen quality, pfft!). Not getting my hopes up somehow.

Zadillo
Jan 25, 2007, 02:02 PM
Ahh ok. But I still believe the screen itself has a more important role. No matter how bright your light is, if you have a dirty and dusty screen all you will see through the stained glass will be a grainy and dirty looking picture.

There are plenty of PeeCee laptops with better looking LCDs that uses the old backlighting technology, what makes this some revolutionary break through all of a sudden? Somehow I think even with this new backlight technology all we will get is just another grainy looking display with lousy washed out colours... but brighter (as though brighter is even a metric for screen quality, pfft!). Not getting my hopes up somehow.

Well, of course we'll have to wait and see.

While there are other PC laptops out there with better quality screens than the current MBP's, I have not seen any PC laptops with screens as good as the Sony Vaio SZ370 and Sony TX (the ones featuring the new LED backlighting).

There is more to it in terms of having good colors, etc.

But if Apple can get screens at least as good as those Sony Vaio premium screens, it will be a major improvement. I do expect this to be a major improvement over current MBP screens, if it does come to pass.

lxpk
Jan 25, 2007, 05:09 PM
I think the more important point of switching to LED back lights is that there will be no more lead in the computers. That's gotta make Greenpeace happy...

I'm a committed environmentalist and I've been funding Greenpeace for years with monthly contributions for the courageous work they do but they really have behaved badly towards :apple: Apple. I doubt that anything Apple could do would get them to back off on their pursuit of such a high-profile target.

macsaregoodmkay
Jan 26, 2007, 01:42 AM
I always thought the colour is produced by light shining through the liquid crystals in the LCD display? How does changing the light actually result in richer colours? :confused:

i think the leds produce a fuller or more even spectrum for the liquid crystals to filter...?:rolleyes:

iW00t
Jan 28, 2007, 05:12 AM
Well, of course we'll have to wait and see.

While there are other PC laptops out there with better quality screens than the current MBP's, I have not seen any PC laptops with screens as good as the Sony Vaio SZ370 and Sony TX (the ones featuring the new LED backlighting).

There is more to it in terms of having good colors, etc.

But if Apple can get screens at least as good as those Sony Vaio premium screens, it will be a major improvement. I do expect this to be a major improvement over current MBP screens, if it does come to pass.

Indeed, I've seen a few in the departmental stores and they truly are insanely gorgeous. Do they come in matte finishing? The ones I've seen so far are all glossy.

Zadillo
Jan 28, 2007, 10:33 AM
Indeed, I've seen a few in the departmental stores and they truly are insanely gorgeous. Do they come in matte finishing? The ones I've seen so far are all glossy.

All glossy as far as I'm aware (although I've personally found that the glossy Sony screens they use for their premium models don't seem quite as reflective; that is, I haven't noticed glare being quite such a problem with them).

In general, it seems like matte screens are becoming a rarity.

-Zadillo

smueboy
Feb 1, 2007, 10:51 AM
It took a while for ThinkSecret to catch up to this:

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0702leddisplay.html


But if LED displays cost more (at present) when will Apple incorporate them? I doubt Apple will want to increase the cost of the MB/MBP's much.