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MacRumors
Jan 28, 2007, 11:28 PM
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USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2007-01-28-verizon-iphone_x.htm?POE=TECISVA) reports that Verizon Wireless rejected Apple's offer to carry the iPhone exclusively due to Apple's terms.

According to the article, Apple wanted "a percentage of the monthly cellphone fees, say over how and where iPhones could be sold and control of the relationship with iPhone customers."

This included limited distribution to Apple Stores and Verizon stores only, leaving Wal-Mart, Best Buy and other Verizon distributors out of the loop. Apple also reportedly insisted on "sole discretion over whether to replace or repair the phone" with regard to customer service.

Cingular reps refused to provide the details of their agreement, but according to the report, the exclusive deal is a five year contract. This is contrary to previous reports that the Cingular's exclusive contract was only through 2008.

Apple's entry of the cell phone market was predicted (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/12/16/iphone-and-cell-phone-market-dynamics/) to shake up the existing dynamics. Indeed, Apple appears to have made unique demands of cell phone carriers.



iMacZealot
Jan 28, 2007, 11:30 PM
I wouldn't think VZW would like iTunes conflicting with VCast and all.

SheriffParker
Jan 28, 2007, 11:33 PM
5 years with Cingular (AT&T)?

Guess I'll be switching as soon as my contract runs out! :D

DMann
Jan 28, 2007, 11:34 PM
Well, seems Verizon lost out on this one. Cingular might pick up lots
of new customers as a result. Besides, once phones are unlocked
and hit the eBay marketplace, they'll be used on other networks.

iMacZealot
Jan 28, 2007, 11:35 PM
My Verizon phone broke 16 months into the contract in November, and I was debating whether or not to stay with Verizon, get the Sidekick I always wanted, or wait for the iPhone. I ended up getting the SK, but I really don't regret it. I have a phone that works for me. Plus, AT&T gets bad reception here.

sunchildx
Jan 28, 2007, 11:35 PM
smart move on cingular. with voip catching up, things are definitely in the blender. plus, with iphones being handed around with verizon distributors, i'm pretty sure things would get "lost" or "discounted" which would piss apple off.

coday182
Jan 28, 2007, 11:35 PM
don't try to save yourself lol

Jovian9
Jan 28, 2007, 11:36 PM
Yet another reason why I do not like Verizon and cannot wait until my contract is up :)

iMacZealot
Jan 28, 2007, 11:36 PM
Plus T-Mobile's launching a NATIONWIDE HSDPA network sometime this year (perhaps this quarter!)

Rodimus Prime
Jan 28, 2007, 11:36 PM
hmm sounds like Verizon stated that if apple wanted to sell there iPhone it would have to play by Verizon rules.

I have to say some of those list of demands by apple are pretty far out there. Big one being apple being the one who decided if phone warrants replacement. Verizon not going to play that game because that means they take the blame when they tell a customer "we sorry we can not help you. you have to talk to apple."
Limiting the distribution from Verizon other outlets again something I think was a little over board.

Demanding a % out of the contract is a little over board.

For the most part it looks like apple demanding to much and Verizon stated it was not willing to bend to apple rules.

Apple needed Verizon more than Verizon needed apple. Hell apple needs the cellular companies more than they need apple and yet apple demands to be the one in control.. typical apple. I wonder if after being told off by Verizon they change there demands quite a bit.

NoCleverSNForMe
Jan 28, 2007, 11:37 PM
Wow.

Two things:

1) I don't believe this is true, because I don't think Apple would have started with a non-GSM phone. Apple's a global company, and they would have started their first edition of the iPhone with the global standard, GSM. Cingular and T-Mobile use the GSM standard and Sprint and Verizon Wireless use the CDMA standard (only in the USA and some smaller Asian countries).

2) If it is true, Verizon missed out on a huge opportunity because Apple's offer didn't conform to the industry norm. Tip of the hat to Cingular for breaking the unwritten rules of the cell phone industry.

dashiel
Jan 28, 2007, 11:39 PM
Apple needed Verizon more than Verizon needed apple. Hell apple needs the cellular companies more than they need apple and yet apple demands to be the one in control.. typical apple. I wonder if after being told off by Verizon they change there demands quite a bit.

i don't think apple needed verizon more than verizon needed apple. cingular has a bigger network and so more potential customers. if the iphone does indeed become ipod big verizon will be kicking themselves.

bearbo
Jan 28, 2007, 11:44 PM
Apple needed Verizon more than Verizon needed apple. Hell apple needs the cellular companies more than they need apple and yet apple demands to be the one in control.. typical apple. I wonder if after being told off by Verizon they change there demands quite a bit.

i dont think so... there are plenty wireless carrier, but only one apple... and apple electronic is right now the symbol of coolness aside from other factors, so i bet if a wireless carrier can sign exclusive deal, they get much benefit too.

given steve jobs (and the narrative of his meeting shown in one of the thread flowing around) i doubt they (or steve) 'd change THEIR(god, people, spell it right!) demand.

Chundles
Jan 28, 2007, 11:44 PM
Gee I'm glad they did this - there's so little CDMA coverage here, everyone's basically on GSM until 3G-HSDPA or UTMS really takes off. We've had 3G here for about 8 years or so but it's only now that Telstra are rolling out their 850MHz HSDPA network (they're replacing the last pockets of CDMA with the new network as well as using it for highspeed wireless internet - up to 14mbps) that it's really starting to become a popular solution.

Going with regular CDMA would've limited iPhone customers here to a few people in the rural areas where CDMA still has coverage but before they need to use satellite phones (ie about 20 people...) so they'd have very few customers indeed. Every provider here is GSM with the phase out of the never-popular-nor-widespread CDMA network

GSM/EDGE will do for the moment but if they really want to make inroads they'll need a 3G capable version at least before they enter the Asian market if not the European one as well.

Andrew F
Jan 28, 2007, 11:49 PM
If this story is true, I don't blame Verizon for passing up on the iPhone. There is no reason that Verizon should be held hostage for a product like that. Personally, I will have a really hard time justifying the money for an iPhone. They are really expensive. But that seems to be Apple's thing. Wanting a percentage of the cell phone service is totally absurd. Apple wouldn't be doing anything to assist the service, contributing to the service, or anything else. They would just be stealing money from the other company. Of course, I only feel this way it this is all true. And I don't think Cingular will pick up a bunch of new customers because of the iPhone unless they will be discounting the service greatly. The phone is very pricy and when you can get good phones for next to or for nothing with other contracts, I don't think the iPhone is going to be a must have thing.

NoCleverSNForMe
Jan 28, 2007, 11:53 PM
Apple needed Verizon more than Verizon needed apple. Hell apple needs the cellular companies more than they need apple and yet apple demands to be the one in control.. typical apple.

I think you need to take a class on logic. ;)

Pretend you're Cingular for a second. No, seriously. Pretend you're Cingular. You have some 50 different cell phones for your customers to choose from. You have 51 million customers, Verizon is gradually increasing right behind you at 45 million.

Now, enter Apple. They call you up, telling you that they have a hot new phone that you know is going to sell like hotcakes, and they're offering it to you exclusively. It'll bring new customers to you and it'll make your current customers happy that they have Cingular.

Apple asks for __% of the revenue and to not have the phone available through resellers.

Since you're pretending to be Cingular here...think from their perspective: What do you have to lose?

If you subscribe to that deal, what's going to happen? Are Cingular customers going to cancel their contracts and go to Verizon because you have the iPhone? No! Of course not! What's the worst that happens? Apple takes some of your money? Okay, big deal. Now look at the POSITIVE. You will get new customers, you will get the spotlight in the media, you will make your current customers happy by having more hot phones available...all for what? Sharing your revenue with this one manufacturer? If it's going to bring you more customers and happier customers, then it's going to pay off on its own...because happier customers refer their friends, who become happy customers themselves.

Now, if you don't subscribe to that deal and let it slip away to T-Mobile (for example), what happens? T-Mobile will start grabbing all the attention. Some of your customers will be intrigued and move over to T-Mobile. You will no longer be discussed as the company that has all the cool phones.

You have nothing to lose by adding this phone to your lineup. Nothing. Sure, some resellers will be pissed, but they'll get over it. They already have some 50 phones to stock from your lineup. You have nothing to lose and yet have so much to gain.

You are giving your customers the CHOICE. As a successful small business owner myself, I can tell you that it's a very good business practice.

The more cell phones and the better cell phones a cellular provider has, the more chances it will get more customers, and happier customers at that.

It's Apple that has the clear advantage here. Every cell phone manufacturer does (because every cell carrier should want the most and best phones on their lineup as possible). It's too bad the cell phone manufacturers willfully gave up their power a long time ago.

bigbossbmb
Jan 28, 2007, 11:57 PM
5yrs...geeeesh!

I really dislike my Verizon service, so I have been looking for an excuse to change. The iPhone is perfect. I want it...Cingular here I come...

Object-X
Jan 29, 2007, 12:00 AM
Verizon is going to rue the day they turned down this deal. When the iPhone becomes a run-away success there are going to be some unhappy board members over there. AT&T will siphone away custumers and Verizon will give Apple whatever they want when the AT&T deal is up.

Consider where the iPod landed five years after it's debut. I think it's foregone conclusion the iPhone is going to be an even bigger success story for Apple.

rjwill246
Jan 29, 2007, 12:01 AM
Apple needed Verizon more than Verizon needed apple. Hell apple needs the cellular companies more than they need apple and yet apple demands to be the one in control.. typical apple. I wonder if after being told off by Verizon they change there demands quite a bit.

Not even... Apple was not going to play by the rules that are killing the phone makers and that includes services that are NOT being offered to the American public because the phone companies dictate what will or will not be a feature. One day you may thank Apple for not playing ball 'cause this phone is the start of something new for the American consumer. Apple has not, not it seems, will be content to buckle under someone else's rules, if those rules stifle innovation and Apple's idea of what "best" is. Thank heavens.

NoCleverSNForMe
Jan 29, 2007, 12:02 AM
Wanting a percentage of the cell phone service is totally absurd.

It's not as absurd as you think.

It's common practice in quite a few professions. It's the concept of referrals; if I refer you a client, I will get a portion in your sale. You should be grateful, because if I didn't refer you the client, then the sale never would've happened. The concept applies here.

I don't think Cingular will pick up a bunch of new customers because of the iPhone unless they will be discounting the service greatly. The phone is very pricy and when you can get good phones for next to or for nothing with other contracts, I don't think the iPhone is going to be a must have thing.

That's what they said and some still say about the Macintosh and the iPod. I can't wait until next MacWorld when Apple and Cingular prove you wrong.

slazareth
Jan 29, 2007, 12:06 AM
first person to unlock an iphone will be a rich rich human being thanks to good ol ebay.

darwen
Jan 29, 2007, 12:07 AM
...wonder if Verizon regrets that decision?

Apple really is tying the hands of the provider with their demands. It makes sense to meet Apple's demands but, seriously, they were asking a lot!

61132
Jan 29, 2007, 12:07 AM
First off, I can't stand Verizon at all, they lock up features on a phone that other carriers let us use (bluetooth contact sync for example), then force us to pay if we want to use that. I CANT STAND VERIZON. As soon as the iphone is released I will be trashing verizon moving on to cingular.

BobbyDigital
Jan 29, 2007, 12:07 AM
And I don't think Cingular will pick up a bunch of new customers because of the iPhone unless they will be discounting the service greatly.

Cingular will get alot of new customers from this. I know about 10 people already who are ditching their current provider for Cingular and the iPhone.

Goodbye Sprint!

budugu
Jan 29, 2007, 12:12 AM
5yrs...geeeesh!

I really dislike my Verizon service, so I have been looking for an excuse to change. The iPhone is perfect. I want it...Cingular here I come...

If you have t-mobile coverage, i would suggest t-mobile + some unlocked iphone! Just for customer service i would not move away from t-mobile.

As much as i loathe Verizon (paid 175 to break the contract!!!), I think apple went over board as to decide who woud be able to sell it etc. It is none of apple's business to get into the distribution channels. The amount of work needed to keep all these parameters in play + your traditional distributors getting pissed etc is just not worth it. And by the end of a year you will have comparable phones from nokia, RIM, moto, LG (heck they already have one!) and Samsung. iphone for all its hype != ipod of the cell phones. Cingular/Att just bought into it just so that no other network would have the advantage (if there was any).

bluebomberman
Jan 29, 2007, 12:14 AM
The pain! The pain! Argh! The pain!

Why, why, why Verizon must you suck so much? Why do I keep on paying you month after month when I hate you so? Why am I stuck under contract with you for another 18 months?

Rodimus Prime
Jan 29, 2007, 12:14 AM
well apple needed Cingular or Verizon to really have a chance with the iPhone. The other carrier are just 2 small. And they will do just find with out the iphone but if apple wanted to sell an real amount of the iPhones they needed those 2 companies. Based on this I do not think you will see the iPhone ever really spreading outside of cingular because apple demands are pretty damn high.

The % sells maybe. But the ones that I think are over board are the outlets it can be sold, and apple being the only one allowed to decide on repairs and replacement. That 2nd one is a sure fire way to making customers pissed off because they are going to take there broken phone to cellular store they got them from before they would contact apple. I mean it will just piss people off telling them they need to contact apple. And apple would be a lot slower o a turn around time the the stores which can be mins compared ot what from apple more than likely would be days. Something people never can stand.

I can understand the limiting of the subsidizing but apple made a lot of demands that are well over the top and I think it was the correct thing to do by Verizon turning them down.

Oh yeah and pretending I was cingular yeah I would of turned apple down limiting where it could be sold and for the repair and replacement one. both those a great way to piss off customers and risk losing them. Even more so since it appears that insurance will be even less of an option is apple holding all the cards.

But then again those demands are typical apple. if cingular turn them down apple would of had to really back down on there demands. Hell I would not be surprised if cingular force them to because apple needs the cell companies a hell of a lot more than they need apple.

budugu
Jan 29, 2007, 12:17 AM
It's not as absurd as you think.

It's common practice in quite a few professions. It's the concept of referrals; if I refer you a client, I will get a portion in your sale. You should be grateful, because if I didn't refer you the client, then the sale never would've happened. The concept applies here.



That's what they said and some still say about the Macintosh and the iPod. I can't wait until next MacWorld when Apple and Cingular prove you wrong.

Referral - generally gets you (if you refer some one) a 1 time bonus ... not a life long revenue stream. All phones are discounted by the providers

Cingular charges rediculously high price for the Data service ~ 50$ or more for unlimited. How many of them will be willing to have a 100% rise in their bill?

mlrproducts
Jan 29, 2007, 12:18 AM
This is a mess. I for one cannot predict what will happen like I believe us Apple devotees usually can. A few points:

1) iPhone is expensive so they have room for $400 iPods below the phone line.
2) I doubt Apple demanded portions of the contracts.
3) I think a FIVE year contract is a bad move. For whom, Apple, Cingular, consumers, I don't know.
4) The iPhone will revolutionize the mobile phone industry BUT...
5) The iPhone and its subsequent lines will probably not see the popularity that the iPod sees.

NoCleverSNForMe
Jan 29, 2007, 12:22 AM
Referral - generally gets you (if you refer some one) a 1 time bonus ... not a life long revenue stream. All phones are discounted by the providers

You're absolutely right. It may truly be a one-time referral, with Apple receiving revenue from the two-year contract. (At the end of the two-year contract, the customer may renew where Apple doesn't get anything off of the new one. On the other hand, the customer may elect to purchase a new iPhone for another two-year contract and sell their old one on eBay :D )

Then again, that's all speculation. We don't know the inner workings of the deal to truly comment on it.

Cingular charges rediculously high price for the Data service ~ 50$ or more for unlimited. How many of them will be willing to have a 100% rise in their bill?

I believe it's $39.99 for unlimited data. The $49.99 plan is unlimited data plus 1,000 text messages.

We should keep two things in mind:

1) Cingular is about to be transformed into AT&T, which may choose to change its plans to something more competitive.

2) AT&T may have some kind of special data pricing for iPhone customers. Keep in mind, Yahoo! has already struck a deal to give iPhone customers a free Yahoo! Plus upgrade to get the IMAP service. There's a possibility that AT&T may have separate iPhone prices, much like the special Blackberry plans.

Again, we won't know anything until June. So hang on tight, guys.

maxterpiece
Jan 29, 2007, 12:23 AM
First off, I can't stand Verizon at all, they lock up features on a phone that other carriers let us use (bluetooth contact sync for example), then force us to pay if we want to use that. I CANT STAND VERIZON. As soon as the iphone is released I will be trashing verizon moving on to cingular.

Yeah verizon is a joke. they are all about making it impossible to switch (they charge ridiculous $ to buy out their contracts), they put that horrible software, remove features, use old technology so their phones are only compatible with their service. You can usually erase the verizon software from the phones though ---- google around and you'll find info on how.

As far as the five year contract goes, Cingular can have a 5 year contract with Apple to sell the phones and it can say in the contract that they have exclusive rights to the iPhone for X amount of time (what is it, two years?).

Andrew F
Jan 29, 2007, 12:24 AM
That's what they said and some still say about the Macintosh and the iPod. I can't wait until next MacWorld when Apple and Cingular prove you wrong.

They very well may. And if they do, good for them. However, I still say that the price, assuming the service is not discounted, is too high to really get a very large number of people to buy them right away. Everyone has music, especially teens and young adults. Because of this, everyone wants an iPod which has led to its awesome success. But iPods don’t cost $500+ dollars. I think that every one here assumes that the same demographic that buys iPods will buy the iPhone. The largest group of buyers, I believe, is going to be the people would need the other capabilities it offers, which is much smaller than the group who want to carry along a lot of music. The iPod is great because every kid in the world wants one. Not every kid in America needs a computer in their hands. And for people with a large music library, the iPhone is not going to cut it.

The iPhone is going to be an awesome product. It I could afford it, I would get it in a second. But it is kind of like a BMW. It will be wanted by many, but only affordable to a few. I only hope I can be in the few about the time it comes out.

And, although the Macintosh has had a great past year, its success is almost non existent compared to the iPod and what every one here expects the iPhone to be, so you really can't use that as a comparison.

chaser1522
Jan 29, 2007, 12:24 AM
i don't think apple needed verizon more than verizon needed apple. cingular has a bigger network and so more potential customers. if the iphone does indeed become ipod big verizon will be kicking themselves.



ok, for one. Verizon does have a bigger network. I promise. Um number two I would rather talk to apple about service over Verizon any day. I could have a verizon store in my basement and I would rather deal with Apple. Like Steve said they can sell 10 million phones in a q. Going through Cingular anyways. Anything to get them in the door works great and 10 million times 499.99? Also it's an apple not a motorola so hopefully were not in a store throwing our phone's at the nearest unhelpful customer service dude like we are now. I hate Verizon and Vcast sucks a mean one anyway. Verizon screwed up and it will poke them later. The chocolate by LG is the worst pile of crap I have ever used and same goes for the MOTO Q. Hat's off to Cingular and as soon as I can GOODBYE VERIZON BS.

chaser1522
Jan 29, 2007, 12:28 AM
Actually Steve probably had a Verizon contract for his phone and that's why we now have an iPhone.

Ryan5505
Jan 29, 2007, 12:33 AM
Here on the east coast Verizon does a great job with their service coverage. Customer service used to be a lot better with vzw but has slipped down hill, they used to fix most phone problems, but now ask if you have insurance on a damaged phone, and ask you to just make a claim to the insurance company.

I hate my razor phone, its slow and I must pay to use any feature. When I first purchased the razor I could send pics from my laptop via bluetooth connection. Verizon later updated the software and removed this feature. The phone is very slow to respond, due to verizon installing their own operating system on top of the motorolla operating system which forces the phone to operate two systems at once. The verizon logo is also annoying to see on the home screen and now on the outer screen which was also done with the update to the software.

Verizon does not have many "FUN" phones to chose from only the Razr, Krazr, and smartphones Q and Palm series. Bad choice on verizon not to take on a new phone to add more FUN to their lineup.

I may be switching....

yg17
Jan 29, 2007, 12:36 AM
The iPhone isn't going to make or break any carrier. It's a niche market and way too damn expensive. The average person is just fine with the phone they get for free when singing a contract. Verizon isn't screwing themselves over and Cingular won't be the only company doing well.

PBGPowerbook
Jan 29, 2007, 12:41 AM
A. Agreed with the previous poster who does not believe this, I think that in constructing the business plan for this phone (features, operating system, and interface aside) the network capability would have been of prime importance. I don't believe that everything was ready except the choice of GSM or CDMA and Apple just stuck the radio in depending on who bit on the deal.

B. Agreed with the previous poster who claims Cingular has little to lose. Yes, if you dig up the MOST expensive and exotic phones from mobileburn and phonescoop and infosyncworld, et al. the iphone is slightly less revolutionary (not that i'm not saving for it) but the LG prada and the N Nokias and so on are not ON THE FRONT PAGE OF usa today, NYTimes, wall street journal and every other print and web medium. This is humongous for cingular whether or not the first gen iphone is a sellout success.

Things will never be the same for Apple now that ipod is big; this is not comparable to the october 2001 ipod release. But at the same time this phone isnt make or break. A zillion people will buy this phone and its descendants. It's starting a new line of devices when your popularity is already fairly untouchable.


edit - post above me is really on target, what a coincidence, i hate W and am from St Louis too! took to long typing my reply i guess

siurpeeman
Jan 29, 2007, 12:52 AM
Well, seems Verizon lost out on this one. Cingular might pick up lots
of new customers as a result. Besides, once phones are unlocked
and hit the eBay marketplace, they'll be used on other networks.

even if it's possible to use the iphone unlocked, you won't be able to use some of the touted features like random access voicemail.

arn
Jan 29, 2007, 12:56 AM
For those who are saying that they don't believe it due to the GSM/CDMA difference in networks...

remember, this all started 2 years ago. Cingular signed on without ever even seeing the phone. So, it could have been very early in development.

arn

lazyrighteye
Jan 29, 2007, 12:57 AM
Cingular will get alot of new customers from this. I know about 10 people already who are ditching their current provider for Cingular and the iPhone.

Goodbye Sprint!

I too have been patiently waiting to move both me & my wife's accounts from VZW to something else (aka: whomever was going to offer the iPhone). While my VZW contract is up in June, hers has another year.
For us, it will be worth the early termination fee to not deal with VZW's "customer service" any more. Granted, all US carriers suffer the same annoying issues VZW does, but at least I'll have that experience with an Apple-branded phone in my pocket.

I know 4 others who are switching from VZW (3) or T-Mobile (1) to Cingular in June.

From my perspective, it appears Cingular is shaping up to gain quite a few customers.


I suppose I could be wrong...

spicyapple
Jan 29, 2007, 12:57 AM
It's a niche market and way too damn expensive.
People said the very same thing when the iPod was introduced.

I would argue for what the iPhone does, in relation to competitors like Blackberry, the price is very attractive. Businesses will snap up iPhones for their employees like crazy.

powermac_daddy
Jan 29, 2007, 12:59 AM
greedy s.o.b

$500 for a phone is not enough, and now wanna control the sells and want more money... shame!

p0intblank
Jan 29, 2007, 01:06 AM
Meh... as bad as this sounds, an iPhone with Verizon service would be so locked it wouldn't even be worth getting in the end. I have a phone with Bluetooth file transfer functionality and Verizon locks me out of such features. :rolleyes:

Word is around the house that we may be switching to Cingular anway. :)

McGarvels
Jan 29, 2007, 01:09 AM
greedy s.o.b

$500 for a phone is not enough, and now wanna control the sells and want more money... shame!

Yeah, it's almost as bad as a Network locking out your bluetooth transfer functions and crippling the phones in other ways so you have to use their service to buy their crappy ringtones, etc. Gosh, thank goodness no US network does that right?

....oh wait.

LethalWolfe
Jan 29, 2007, 01:09 AM
As much as i loathe Verizon (paid 175 to break the contract!!!), I think apple went over board as to decide who woud be able to sell it etc. It is none of apple's business to get into the distribution channels.
Why? Down the line I'm sure we'll see Apple relax it's rules, but why release a product like this and not use it to drive more foot traffic into their own stores?

But iPods don’t cost $500+ dollars.
Not anymore but they used to. IIRC, the 4th gen iPods were the first not to have a $500 model.


Lethal

A is jump
Jan 29, 2007, 01:13 AM
hmm sounds like Verizon stated that if apple wanted to sell there iPhone it would have to play by Verizon rules.

I have to say some of those list of demands by apple are pretty far out there. Big one being apple being the one who decided if phone warrants replacement. Verizon not going to play that game because that means they take the blame when they tell a customer "we sorry we can not help you. you have to talk to apple."
Limiting the distribution from Verizon other outlets again something I think was a little over board.

Demanding a % out of the contract is a little over board.

For the most part it looks like apple demanding to much and Verizon stated it was not willing to bend to apple rules.

Apple needed Verizon more than Verizon needed apple. Hell apple needs the cellular companies more than they need apple and yet apple demands to be the one in control.. typical apple. I wonder if after being told off by Verizon they change there demands quite a bit.

I think Apple was pretty sure they didnt want to work with Verizon. But went into talks with them anyway. always talk to your hopeful partner's competitor.
once the deal with Cingular was looking the way apple wanted, I wouldnt be surprised if they shot Verizon a deal that was very favorable to Apple.
If Verizon would have excepted those terms... that would have been really good for apple, good enough to go back to cingular with some new demands.

either way, even though I have verizon, I could care less, I'm ditching them as soon as my contract runs up.... potentially sooner with the iphone out.

A is jump
Jan 29, 2007, 01:17 AM
Yeah, it's almost as bad as a Network locking out your bluetooth transfer functions and crippling the phones in other ways so you have to use their service to buy their crappy ringtones, etc. Gosh, thank goodness no US network does that right?

....oh wait.

AMEN! You and I are on the same page brother McGarvels!

Nermal
Jan 29, 2007, 01:18 AM
Gee I'm glad they did this - there's so little CDMA coverage here, everyone's basically on GSM until 3G-HSDPA or UTMS really takes off.

Interesting, we have CDMA (and GSM) everywhere, and as far as I know have UMTS and EV-DO in the major cities. I guess I assumed that Australia had a similar system, as I was under the impression that you could roam there with a CDMA phone.

donlphi
Jan 29, 2007, 01:18 AM
I can't help but remember Universal and Zune deal:

Doug Morris, chief executive of Universal, commented "We felt that any business that's built on the bedrock of music we should share in."

or

Steve Jobs, CEO of Apple inc., commented "We felt that any business that's built on the bedrock of AMAZING INOVATIVE TECHNOLOGY we should share in."

The whole Verizon thing sounds like a crock to me. Some exec. caught some sh%t from his boss and had to try and save face because he missed a great opportunity. Steve (and his crew) probably walked in and layed out the "PLAN". Verizon probably laughed in their face and refused to even REALLY listen.

Congrats to Cingular for trusting one of the last companies that truly cares about creating a quality product. I just wish they would get a faster data network. EDGE??? geeze

twoodcc
Jan 29, 2007, 01:19 AM
well considering i already have Cingular, this doesn't bother me one bit....

donlphi
Jan 29, 2007, 01:21 AM
Just out of curiosity, how much will it cost Verizon or Sprint users to DROP their contract early? Anybody know? :confused:

jbernie
Jan 29, 2007, 01:21 AM
Verizon is going to rue the day they turned down this deal. When the iPhone becomes a run-away success there are going to be some unhappy board members over there. AT&T will siphone away custumers and Verizon will give Apple whatever they want when the AT&T deal is up.

Consider where the iPod landed five years after it's debut. I think it's foregone conclusion the iPhone is going to be an even bigger success story for Apple.

Right now it is a matter of IF it becomes a run away success. Lets get the product to the market first.

Also keep in mind, as much as the iPhone is very fancy, there are other phones that will get to market either before or close to the same time as Apple with basically the same functionality (Samsung?). IF all of these phones offer basically the same features, then $$ will come into play very quickly. I would like an Apple iPhone but the extra $200 up front is too much (example only).

Obviously a lot of people here are more than willing to cough up the $$ for the Apple phone, but then you would expect that on Apple forum. For too many people the cost of the phone up front removes them from the potential market and they will go with a much less expensive device.

BWhaler
Jan 29, 2007, 01:41 AM
Not so sure about this.

I think Apple wanted a GSM phone since it is the global standard.

My money is one Apple negotiated both so they could play one off of the other. Verizon was probably used as leverage with Cingular.

5 years of Cingular is just depressing. Here's hoping these Apple phones get unlocked fast.

BWhaler
Jan 29, 2007, 01:43 AM
Just out of curiosity, how much will it cost Verizon or Sprint users to DROP their contract early? Anybody know? :confused:

I think it may be 175 bucka. but call your carrier.

simX
Jan 29, 2007, 02:16 AM
They very well may. And if they do, good for them. However, I still say that the price, assuming the service is not discounted, is too high to really get a very large number of people to buy them right away. Everyone has music, especially teens and young adults. Because of this, everyone wants an iPod which has led to its awesome success. But iPods don’t cost $500+ dollars.

Seriously, you seem to have a very short memory. The iPod debuted at a $400 price point. It was 3 years before the lower-priced ($249) iPod mini came out, and 1 year after that before the even-lower-priced ($99) iPod shuffle came out. Given the nature of the iPhone (the touch-screen with flick-scrolling, Cover Flow on an iPod, phone capabilities, awesome web browsing capabilities), I don't think it's unreasonable for Apple to ask for $150 above what the high-end iPod retails for.

The iPhone has been hyped for almost as long as Steve said it was in development. Make no doubt about it: there will be a supply and demand imbalance for many months after the iPhone initially gets released, so debuting at a lower price would have no advantage whatsoever for Apple. Only after a year or so will Apple will lower the price so that more of the market will be able to buy an iPhone.

Here is the key point: Apple does not make commodity products. They make very high-end products with great attention to detail and design. They market to the high-end of the market. Once they capture a large portion of that market, only then do they start reaching for the middle part of the market, and they never go for the low end. (Even the iPod shuffle at $79 is a bit expensive as an MP3 player when you can get 1 GB flash drives for something like $20 (http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/Category.asp?Category=324&name=Flash-Memory-Readers).) If you look at countries like South Korea, where consumers are almost exclusively buying ridiculously cheap and low-end commodity products, Apple has only recently clawed its way up to a 10% market share, in contrast to the United States where it has a 70-something% share. The difference is in consumers' buying habits, and its more skewed toward the high-end here in the United States.

[...] assuming the service is not discounted [...]

I don't understand what you mean by this. Did you not hear that you get a 2-year contract included with the price of an iPhone? Or are you talking about web data services, which may not cater to all of the iPhone's potential customers anyway?

And, although the Macintosh has had a great past year, its success is almost non existent compared to the iPod and what every one here expects the iPhone to be, so you really can't use that as a comparison.

Yeah, and the lowest-priced Mac is $599 without display or keyboard, so of course the iPod is going to appeal to many more consumers. For example, parents are probably not going to buy a Mac for every one of their kids, but not nearly as many would balk at a $79 iPod shuffle or a $149 iPod nano as a Christmas or birthday present.

dontmatter
Jan 29, 2007, 02:21 AM
Remember the outrage when music labels wanted a piece of the ipod pie? Well, who wants a piece of somebody else's pie now? The percentage of cellphone carriers incomes is pretty insane. I wonder what the logic was- dollars signs in their eyes, expectations that the ease of use would make people send far more data than they do, and it might be a boon, a desire to not get their phone devalued by discounts but still get the subsidation of the phone companies?

I don't get it. I'd really like to hear all of apple's logic on this. It looks like they wanted an exclusive contract with one carrier, doing away with freedom of customer choices, while simultaneously taking the opposite stand and going for a more unlocked phone model with opposing discounts on the phone (which essentially mean that they're saying no, don't pay me, phone companies). And choosing replacement or repair, etc.? It all just doesn't fit together for me yet. What's the game plan?

simX
Jan 29, 2007, 02:28 AM
I don't get it. I'd really like to hear all of apple's logic on this. It looks like they wanted an exclusive contract with one carrier, doing away with freedom of customer choices, while simultaneously taking the opposite stand and going for a more unlocked phone model with opposing discounts on the phone (which essentially mean that they're saying no, don't pay me, phone companies). And choosing replacement or repair, etc.? It all just doesn't fit together for me yet. What's the game plan?

Apple wants to control the iPhone's image. They don't want a re-hash of what happened when Apple allowed crappy electronics stores like Best Buy or CompUSA to sell their Macs.

-- say over how and where iPhones could be sold: control over the sales experience
-- control of the relationship with iPhone customers: control over customer service experience
-- sole discretion over whether to replace or repair the phone: again, control over customer service experience
-- exclusive contract with one provider: yet again, control over customer's experience with the iPhone

Your analogy with the RIAA wanting a share of the profits of Apple's iPod doesn't hold water. The RIAA's only job is to be a middle-man: they don't create the music, they don't sell the music, they don't create any MP3 player device, they don't run any music-download store. In the internet age, the RIAA is outdated, unneeded. They don't deserve any part of the profits.

In contrast, Apple is the device maker for the Apple iPhone. The iPhone is a one-of-a-kind mobile phone/iPod/"internet communicator", and so if Cingular wants in on the iPhone, they'd better make it worth Apple's while.

I don't see how this is hard to understand. Without Apple, Cingular/AT&T wouldn't be getting buzz over their exclusive contract with Apple, they wouldn't be enticing a boatload of customers to jump ship from other providers, and they wouldn't be seen as a "hip" company that allows an innovative company to bend the rules in favor of the customer. Apple brings a lot to the table, and deserves a cut of the profits. The RIAA does not, and by analogy, does not deserve a cut of the profits.

If Verizon didn't want to let Apple shake things up a bit, that's their own damn problem. But if it's true that Verizon turned down the deal, I'm pretty sure they'll be slapping themselves come June, if they aren't already doing so now, given the positive press that Apple has generated for Cingular/AT&T.

Cepe Indicum
Jan 29, 2007, 02:43 AM
Living in the UK, I can't understand the difference between Cingular / Verizon / Sprint / etc. What I do know is, on the day the iPhone was announced, on MacRumors all I saw were you guys in the US saying what a tragedy it was that it was exclusive to Cingular...

Now, the majority of the posts in this thread are... "I'm switching to Cingular asap", "Verizon is rubbish, Cingular here I come", etc.

What's going on? :confused:

Has Cingular got better in two weeks? Were you just annoyed that it was a locked phone (understandable)? Or are all the Cingular bashers staying away from this thread? Explain please...

roxnadz
Jan 29, 2007, 03:05 AM
I, for one, wouldn't switch to Stinkular if you paid me. They wouldn't know customer service if it walked up and bit them in the rear.

And for all their touting their coverage, it's funny that more often than not I only have 1 or 2 bars on my phone when I want to make a call.

I just finished a contract with Sprint for my personal phone and despite T-Mobile's lagging behind in coverage, we will be going with them over Stinkular.

No, they haven't gotten better. They've gotten the iPhone. That's all that matters to most people here.

Fortunately, some of us are willing to wait for not only the phone itself to be unlocked, but for it to actually be a better phone.

Digital Skunk
Jan 29, 2007, 03:07 AM
Living in the UK, I can't understand the difference between Cingular / Verizon / Sprint / etc. What I do know is, on the day the iPhone was announced, on MacRumors all I saw were you guys in the US saying what a tragedy it was that it was exclusive to Cingular...

Now, the majority of the posts in this thread are... "I'm switching to Cingular asap", "Verizon is rubbish, Cingular here I come", etc.

What's going on? :confused:

Has Cingular got better in two weeks? Were you just annoyed that it was a locked phone (understandable)? Or are all the Cingular bashers staying away from this thread? Explain please...

I have Sprint and I am not leaving.... Cingular sucks. Everyone wants to say "they have the biggest network and the most customers" so does Windows douche bag! Cingular can stick it. I will wait five years and get the screaming new iPhone with thought recognition, and the narks that switched to Cingular early can have their horrible customer service.

:D :apple: Apple still rules....

Cingular... is very questionable:mad:

kugino
Jan 29, 2007, 03:23 AM
in 6 years i've been with sprint, AT&T (pre-cingular merger), cingular, and now verizon. and the truth? they all stink. i actually liked at&t the best - they had pretty decent customer service.

i hope the iphone succeeds...but if it doesn't, it will be b/c of cingular and the messed up cell phone system in the states. i don't trust any of the cell phone companies...

fraggle
Jan 29, 2007, 03:49 AM
I would argue for what the iPhone does, in relation to competitors like Blackberry, the price is very attractive. Businesses will snap up iPhones for their employees like crazy.

No, they won't as long as said employees can't sync with Outlook.

JoeG4
Jan 29, 2007, 04:22 AM
Did they say FIVE YEARS?!?!?!

Let me reiterate:

FIVE YEARS?!

That's fricken monopoly! I'm disgusted, I mean *&*(&#% Apple WANTS MA-BELL TO GET BACK THEIR POWER!!!

Who the *(#@$%%@# all is going to benefit if AT&T (who owns cingular), buys out Verizon, Sprint, and everyone else too?!

With news like that, I wouldn't buy an iPhone if it was the last phone on earth. No, in fact I'd rather buy a phone that had "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" as a ring tone.

Cepe Indicum
Jan 29, 2007, 04:55 AM
No, they haven't gotten better. They've gotten the iPhone. That's all that matters to most people here.

Fortunately, some of us are willing to wait for not only the phone itself to be unlocked, but for it to actually be a better phone.

I understand your comments here, but it still doesn't really explain why everyone, all of a sudden, is all for getting a Cingular iPhone. I would say (and I'm sure there was a poll on it straight after the Keynote), that 80% were against getting the iPhone in the US; now it seems to be 80% want it, and not only that, but are bashing the competing carriers... :confused:

To those in the UK with me... do we find any one carrier better / worse than all the others? Coverage seems to be fine with most carriers. I've been with T-Mobile, Orange, 02 and '3', and - except for poor customer service with '3' - I'd say they were pretty similar... any comments?

I'm with Orange now (student deal), therefore I hope they get the iPhone. But I wouldn't worry that much about switching if someone else got it.

zap2
Jan 29, 2007, 05:54 AM
Good...I hate Verizon...I don't even get service at my house! With Cingular I do.

But Verizon will end up kicking themselves...the iPhone is a HUGE deal, even if some think its to much money, it will come down in price before Verizon gets a chance to sell it and Cingular will have even more people come to get the iPhone.


Apple is one of the few companys which can release and Phone and have people switch service providers. I've been putting of getting a new Phone simply because Apple was coming out with a new phone

leandroc76
Jan 29, 2007, 05:54 AM
I hope Sprint signs on, anyone hear anything on that?

GregA
Jan 29, 2007, 06:08 AM
Gee I'm glad they did this - there's so little CDMA coverage here, everyone's basically on GSM until 3G-HSDPA or UTMS really takes off.
Interesting, we have CDMA (and GSM) everywhere, and as far as I know have UMTS and EV-DO in the major cities. I guess I assumed that Australia had a similar system, as I was under the impression that you could roam there with a CDMA phone.
I prefer to be more subtle... but Chundles has a whole load of facts wrong.

Australia has CDMA nationwide via Telstra (with EV-DO in the major cities) and the coverage is considered excellent (better than any other network's GSM coverage), though Telstra will shut the network down in 18 months. They are replacing it with a new 3G network on the same frequencies that they've called "NextG" (equal coverage to CDMA, give-or-take a few swings and roundabouts). NextG is regular 3G, but on the lower (non-standard) frequencies, and it has HSDPA (high speed data). Vodafone and Optus are trialing HSDPA on the regular 3G frequencies.

We've had 3G here for about 8 years or so but it's only now that Telstra are rolling out their 850MHz HSDPA network (they're replacing the last pockets of CDMA with the new network as well as using it for highspeed wireless internet - up to 14mbps) that it's really starting to become a popular solution.
<snip>
GSM/EDGE will do for the moment
3G has been here since 2003 when Three (Hutchison) released it to a couple of cities (Sydney & Melbourne only to start?), in a joint venture with TelecomNZ and roaming onto Telstra 2G when out of range. It was October 2005 before Vodafone and later Optus released 3G (sharing much network infrastructure), mainly in the capital cities. Vodafone really has a very similar setup in Australia and NZ (just a much lower market share in Australia).

Telstra did a deal with Three and expanded their joint network some. Telstra were a little behind on the whole 3G thing, until they did an amazingly fast rollout of 3G nationwide on their existing CDMA frequencies (850Mhz) after they convinced the government that CDMA was too expensive. They're now using the same frequency Cingular are using for 3G, which may bode well for Australia being one of the only countries that could use the 2nd generation iPhone??? (though personally I hope Apple supports regular 3G frequencies!!)

mrthieme
Jan 29, 2007, 06:18 AM
Iphone rumors should be taken with a very big grain of salt. Having the word iphone in the title guarantees views, if it's true doesn't really matter. Apple probably did have talks with Verizon, beyond that is anyone's GUESS.

If I know Verizon, they wanted to charge 50 cents for every ; sync with computer, picture taken, call answered recieved or missed, song played, contact added or deleted,reboot etc. Verizon sucks out loud, I'm glad they didn't get the iphone.

dsnort
Jan 29, 2007, 06:35 AM
Long before the iPhone was introduced people were predicting that Verizon wouldn't have it. Verizon has always insisted on installing it's own UI, that VCast abomination, on every phone, and we all know that wouldn't sit well with his Jobness. That is most likely the demand that Verizon wouldn't meet, and this article smacks of spin on their part.

Kabeyun
Jan 29, 2007, 06:35 AM
This reminds me of when Hershey grabbed the deal after M&M/Mars passed on product placement in the movie ET. Remember what happened? Reese's Pieces became a household name, and, 15 years later M&M's still needed to introduce new colors to try to regain market share.

Roller
Jan 29, 2007, 06:36 AM
Right now it is a matter of IF it becomes a run away success. Lets get the product to the market first.

Also keep in mind, as much as the iPhone is very fancy, there are other phones that will get to market either before or close to the same time as Apple with basically the same functionality (Samsung?). IF all of these phones offer basically the same features, then $$ will come into play very quickly. I would like an Apple iPhone but the extra $200 up front is too much (example only).

Obviously a lot of people here are more than willing to cough up the $$ for the Apple phone, but then you would expect that on Apple forum. For too many people the cost of the phone up front removes them from the potential market and they will go with a much less expensive device.

Agreed. It's too early to predict how the iPhone will do based on what we know, including "reviews" based on 10 minutes of use by a few industry pundits. For example, if the iPhone gets a bad reputation because of the on-screen keyboard or slow Web access, it'll be hard to overcome, especially at such a high price point.

whooleytoo
Jan 29, 2007, 06:41 AM
The iPhone isn't going to make or break any carrier. It's a niche market and way too damn expensive.

That's exactly what Apple is trying to change - computers were once 'niche' items, as were MP3 players; and it was Apple's entry into these markets that brought these devices into the mainstream. The iPhone is designed to take 'smartphone' usage (web, mail, messaging etc) into the mainstream.

Interestingly - in the first (fiscal) year of iPod sales, they sold 376,000 iPods. Apple is forecasting 10,000,000 iPhone sales in the first year. That should tell you a lot about how big Apple believes the iPhone will be - it's certainly not a device aimed at a niche.

The fact that Apple devoted almost it's entire Macworld keynote - its one annual 'soapbox' that the entire tech industry tunes into - to the iPhone should back that up.

Sutekidane
Jan 29, 2007, 06:42 AM
Looks like this iPhone is going to be a very over-priced, exclusive device.

poe diddley
Jan 29, 2007, 06:57 AM
cingular is only good in certain areas, so i think it's ludicrous of apple to use one exclusive carrier. cingular is by far the WORST phone service you can have in my area of NC. when i lived in FL cingular was ok, but up here i couldn't even get signal in my house using cingular, i had to walk outside in the yard. missed lots of calls that way till i switched to verizon. not that this is the case for everybody in the world, but this is just an example.

if i can't get proper signal at my house, and cingular tells me there are no plans to add more towers in my area or upgrade it in any way no matter what phone i get from them, then why would i ever get an iphone?

it looks cool but if i have only one choice of carriers for the next 5 years then i predict that the iphone will eventually flop because people who can't use cingular in their area will lose interest no matter how good it is, and i'm sorry but cingular is not the best provider in a lot of places.

mrthieme
Jan 29, 2007, 06:59 AM
Looks like this iPhone is going to be a very over-priced, exclusive device.
I just took a quick look at other high end phones, the ones iphone will compete with, many were $300 to$400 with contract. So it is a bit more expensive, Apple hardware usually is, but from what I see it is easily worth a couple hundred more in terms of value, and the experience using it.

While it is priced and designed to compete with the top line phones, I bet this will also pull people up the ladder from the "buy one, get one free" crappy phones we see thrown around like party favors. It's that cool.

poe diddley
Jan 29, 2007, 07:08 AM
We should keep two things in mind:

1) Cingular is about to be transformed into AT&T, which may choose to change its plans to something more competitive.

2) AT&T may have some kind of special data pricing for iPhone customers. Keep in mind, Yahoo! has already struck a deal to give iPhone customers a free Yahoo! Plus upgrade to get the IMAP service. There's a possibility that AT&T may have separate iPhone prices, much like the special Blackberry plans.

Again, we won't know anything until June. So hang on tight, guys.


you've got it backwards i think.
at&t wireless is becoming cingular.
when i lived in FL i had at&t wireless and it became cingular. then i had to get a new phone to keep their service shortly before moving up here to nc and discovering that cingular blows big time up here.
maybe that's not everywhere in the US but it is in these two states anyway......

ZipZilla
Jan 29, 2007, 07:11 AM
(only in the USA and some smaller Asian countries)


Yeah....China and South Korea are "smaller Asian countries."

GSM is the world standard, but CDMA is more widespread than people think. It also has some key advantages. An iPhone on Verizon's (or Sprint's, for that matter) network would have been phenomenal...perhaps it would've had 3G data instead of the slow GSM/EDGE.

dlastmango
Jan 29, 2007, 07:19 AM
you've got it backwards i think.
at&t wireless is becoming cingular.
when i lived in FL i had at&t wireless and it became cingular. then i had to get a new phone to keep their service shortly before moving up here to nc and discovering that cingular blows big time up here.
maybe that's not everywhere in the US but it is in these two states anyway......

Im in FL (Bradenton Sarasota market) and I have begun seeing comercials on TV mentioning that Cingular... along with BellSouth is the new AT&T.

I too had AT&T just before they merged with Cingular. They were terrible. I paid over $500 to cancel my accountssince their service was soo bad. I dont understand it. why go back to AT&T branding?

kingconsulting
Jan 29, 2007, 07:25 AM
i dont think so... there are plenty wireless carrier, but only one apple... and apple electronic is right now the symbol of coolness aside from other factors, so i bet if a wireless carrier can sign exclusive deal, they get much benefit too.

given steve jobs (and the narrative of his meeting shown in one of the thread flowing around) i doubt they (or steve) 'd change THEIR(god, people, spell it right!) demand.

That is the best. Complain about someone's spelling then fill your own paragraph with grammar and punctuation errors.

Sutekidane
Jan 29, 2007, 07:34 AM
I just took a quick look at other high end phones, the ones iphone will compete with, many were $300 to$400 with contract. So it is a bit more expensive, Apple hardware usually is, but from what I see it is easily worth a couple hundred more in terms of value, and the experience using it.

While it is priced and designed to compete with the top line phones, I bet this will also pull people up the ladder from the "buy one, get one free" crappy phones we see thrown around like party favors. It's that cool.

I doubt people used to getting free phones are going to dump $500 into iPhone because of all the hype.

MacFan782040
Jan 29, 2007, 07:36 AM
Verizon= greedy SOB's. They probably didn't want a phone interfering with their "crippled bluetooth" business plan.

BillHarrison
Jan 29, 2007, 07:46 AM
It's not as absurd as you think.

It's common practice in quite a few professions. It's the concept of referrals; if I refer you a client, I will get a portion in your sale. You should be grateful, because if I didn't refer you the client, then the sale never would've happened. The concept applies here.



That's what they said and some still say about the Macintosh and the iPod. I can't wait until next MacWorld when Apple and Cingular prove you wrong.


Whoa there. Apple makes some great products, we all know or we would not be here. But not everything they come up with is "Magic" or "Gold". This will not do as well as the iPod. End of story. Different time, higher price, etc, etc. Will it do well? Likely. Will it change "Cellular" service as we know it? No way.

Multimedia
Jan 29, 2007, 08:11 AM
If Verizon was the iPhone carrier, it would make my adoption of it much easier since they are my carrier to date. I live where Verizon works much better than Cingular and thus would be trading better signal coverage for worse if I were to adopt an iPhone. So I'm torn about this. :confused: :eek: :(

Multimedia
Jan 29, 2007, 08:13 AM
Verizon= greedy SOB's. They probably didn't want a phone interfering with their "crippled bluetooth" business plan.Please explain what you mean. :confused:

Lepton
Jan 29, 2007, 08:26 AM
Apple is predicting 10 million phones by the end of 2008, that's 18 months, not a year. I'm sure they will meet and exceed that, and I bet they have three models out by them..

Cingular is the only carrier that reaches into my house which is kind of in a low spot here on Long Island. The lower GSM frequency they use in the US penetrates better, even into my finished basement. And my contract is up for renewal in May, which means they offer a phone upgrade, so I'm sitting pretty, ready to get an iPhone.

My area already offers Cingular's 3G and my contract gives me access to it, so I was upset that iPhone won't have it, but I'll wager before a year is out they will, so I'll pick up the new model and try to sell the old. So that's two sales for Apple already lined up, and I bet I'll even get a decent resale price for a cell phone.

MovieCutter
Jan 29, 2007, 08:30 AM
I hope Sprint signs on, anyone hear anything on that?

No, Sprint will not be getting the iPhone for another 5 years, if at all. Sorry kiddo.

blitzkrieg79
Jan 29, 2007, 08:33 AM
Ehhhh, iPhone, may be revolutionary (but I just say it has a better interface which is more of an evolution than revolution) and the price of it at $600 is a little overboard for average consumer for a cell phone WITH a contract. Hell I can get a Sidekick here for free with a 2 year contract. Best selling cell phones are in the $100-$150 range. Of course people on this board which most are Apple fans will probably buy it but there is not a lot of you out there.

IPhone in the best case scenario will be a niche product (unless they will drop it's prices), not a lot of people in their right mind will buy a $600 cell phone no matter how cool it may be, the main function of a phone is to call other people, all those other gadgets are secondary. Another thing, according to various statistics Verizon offers the best phone reception which is an important issue because no matter how cool of a phone you can have, if there is no reception the cell phones main function is useless.

zwida
Jan 29, 2007, 08:51 AM
Verizon= greedy SOB's. They probably didn't want a phone interfering with their "crippled bluetooth" business plan.
Please explain what you mean. :confused:

Probably something to do with the fact that Verizon cripples the bluetooth on their handsets to "encourage" consumers to pay for over the air downloads. In fact, they recently lost a significant class action lawsuit based on what they did to the V710, so I'd say MacFan is on to something on this one.

jhedges3
Jan 29, 2007, 08:53 AM
I prefer to be more subtle... but Chundles has a whole load of facts wrong.

Australia has CDMA nationwide via Telstra (with EV-DO in the major cities) and the coverage is considered excellent (better than any other network's GSM coverage), though Telstra will shut the network down in 18 months. They are replacing it with a new 3G network on the same frequencies that they've called "NextG" (equal coverage to CDMA, give-or-take a few swings and roundabouts). NextG is regular 3G, but on the lower (non-standard) frequencies, and it has HSDPA (high speed data). Vodafone and Optus are trialing HSDPA on the regular 3G frequencies.


3G has been here since 2003 when Three (Hutchison) released it to a couple of cities (Sydney & Melbourne only to start?), in a joint venture with TelecomNZ and roaming onto Telstra 2G when out of range. It was October 2005 before Vodafone and later Optus released 3G (sharing much network infrastructure), mainly in the capital cities. Vodafone really has a very similar setup in Australia and NZ (just a much lower market share in Australia).

Telstra did a deal with Three and expanded their joint network some. Telstra were a little behind on the whole 3G thing, until they did an amazingly fast rollout of 3G nationwide on their existing CDMA frequencies (850Mhz) after they convinced the government that CDMA was too expensive. They're now using the same frequency Cingular are using for 3G, which may bode well for Australia being one of the only countries that could use the 2nd generation iPhone??? (though personally I hope Apple supports regular 3G frequencies!!)

Is there any reason that you guys discuss this other than that you live in Australia? Like when you post these things are you of the opinion that most readers are interested in telecommunications markets in Australia or that these markets significantly impact Apple and AT&T's business development and relationship?

These questions could apply to any of you that live in far away places and for, what generally appears to be little more than simple narcissism and want for attention, like to remind everyone about your place. That Japan has such and such, in England we don't know about this and that, but we have this, the rest of the world has whatever, South America, where is it again, Antarctica, to the extent that it remains (shrinking) exists as well, and Canada likes Apple as well, I'm sure there are people with phones in Micronesia, but what about Madagascar, oh them also I suppose, and Ireland has plenty, heck even Sadr City probably expects to have 3G at some point.

For so long, I was optimistic about our chances of adding anything insightful. But day-by-day we fill these pages with what seems an endless, a cacophony, a plethora, a deluge, a lot of words and little else. We ramble on endlessly, never caring when, and if, we repeat each other. In fact, getting more posts rewards us as the all-important metric will go up as a result regardless of repition or whether what we say has anything to do with the issue at hand.

All this is like trying to gain an understanding of the ecological state of the world by tuning in for the sound bites of an army of amnesiac and narcissist single-species watchers. Someone over there saying mosquitoes are dying in mass. Someone else saying the Water Bufallo has lost their footing, in large part thanks to the advances in recent generations of some sort of cat or some other nasty predator. The rabbits are breading like hotcakes this year. But what about the mosquitoes again, I forgot.

And what hubris we have, always thinking that the people for whom these predictions and analyses matter most are the ones who get it the most wrong. That some how we got it right cause we thought about this or that. Because we know about what signals are being sent in and around Northern Beaches.

And where are all of us who are willing to say maybe and let’s wait and see. In a few months, we’ll know more, for example, about whether we have a revolution or a flop.

rdrr
Jan 29, 2007, 08:55 AM
I don't know how Apple and Verizon would have done business together anyway. Verizon likes to have control over the UI and tend to cripple the functions of the phones they offer. The first thing they do is remove the ability to transfer files of Bluetooth. Although the iPhone full details hasn't come out yet, I am betting on it performing OBEX. Also I cannot see Steve allowing a company that has such horrendous UI, to put input into the look and function of the iPhone.

applekid
Jan 29, 2007, 09:05 AM
This included limited distribution to Apple Stores and Verizon stores only, leaving Wal-Mart, Best Buy and other Verizon distributors out of the loop. Apple also reportedly insisted on "sole discretion over whether to replace or repair the phone" with regard to customer service.

That part seems awkward... Does that mean the whole new phone every two years from most cell phone companies not apply to the iPhone? That would suck. No replaceable battery and a weak battery life spells disaster for the iPhone in a couple of years of use.

Nevertheless, Verizon rejecting the iPhone should be no surprise. With Verizon's crummy "features" added into all phones and really crippling the phone, it's no wonder Apple didn't get far in talks with Verizon. Although, with this story uncovered, maybe Apple and Verizon will make a compromise so that I won't have to change providers next year to get an iPhone (although AT&T is looking better by the day).

ncbill
Jan 29, 2007, 09:08 AM
Here in the U.S., adoption of GSM came after other digital cellular technologies like TDMA (replaced by GSM) and CDMA.

GSM coverage is still lacking outside metro area in lower population states like mine.

Here, if you go as little as 3 miles outside the city limits, or 1 mile off the major highways, chances are you won't have GSM coverage, but you will have CDMA or analog coverage.

I expect this to improve, slowly, but note that companies "cherry-pick" where they put new GSM towers (i.e., GSM coverage is very good in rural resort areas, with $1 million+ new homes)

Living in the UK, I can't understand the difference between Cingular / Verizon / Sprint / etc. What I do know is, on the day the iPhone was announced, on MacRumors all I saw were you guys in the US saying what a tragedy it was that it was exclusive to Cingular...

CEAbiscuit
Jan 29, 2007, 09:10 AM
I don't know how Apple and Verizon would have done business together anyway. Verizon likes to have control over the UI and tend to cripple the functions of the phones they offer. The first thing they do is remove the ability to transfer files of Bluetooth. Although the iPhone full details hasn't come out yet, I am betting on it performing OBEX. Also I cannot see Steve allowing a company that has such horrendous UI, to put input into the look and function of the iPhone.

I was proved wrong on this one a while back. take a look at the Verizon Blackberry. Blackberry interface.

uzombie
Jan 29, 2007, 09:14 AM
Verizon saw that this was not a good deal. And it's not.
(I recall that Cingular-ATT has rollover minutes. VZW would never do that. They should. But they won't. Look at all the money they lose).
I can't wait to read about the iPhone theft rate and "unlocked" models sold on eBay...or DIY battery replacement kits that VOID warranty from both Apple and ATT.
You Jones' can have the first wave of iPhones. I'll wait. I'm happy with my plain old cell. That works. Sheeple.

Rodimus Prime
Jan 29, 2007, 09:17 AM
Here in the U.S., adoption of GSM came after other digital cellular technologies like TDMA (replaced by GSM) and CDMA.

GSM coverage is still lacking outside metro area in lower population states like mine.

Here, if you go as little as 3 miles outside the city limits, or 1 mile off the major highways, chances are you won't have GSM coverage, but you will have CDMA or analog coverage.

I expect this to improve, slowly, but note that companies "cherry-pick" where they put new GSM towers (i.e., GSM coverage is very good in rural resort areas, with $1 million+ new homes)

well it is understandable why the US GSM coverage is weaker than the CMDA. CMDA/Analog both have a wider cover range per tower so it take fewer towers to cover everywhere.

On top of that the US has a lot much lower population density than other countries that has good cell phone coverage and a hell of a lot more land area to cover. That takes time and money and you have fewer people using each tower. I would not be surprised in the least to see Canad in the same boat just because there is just a huge area to cover with relatively few people in range of each tower. And the towers I believe I saw a figure that put them at about $800,000 each to put up. That not counting operational cost that goes with each tower as well.

donlphi
Jan 29, 2007, 09:30 AM
I hear a bunch of people complaining about how Apple wants to control so much, including which stores sell their product. I think the reason is obvious there. If you have ever been to a Target or Wal-Mart, you know how they display their items, a box away from looking like COSTCO (or someother warehouse store). They put the iPODs right between the CDs and Cassette Tapes...The phones are on these giant display counters that have been tampered with by every teenager that has ever walked in the store. You can't help but want to stay out of those places.

Stay out of the discount stores... keep the quality up.

ManchesterTrix
Jan 29, 2007, 09:34 AM
People said the very same thing when the iPod was introduced.

I would argue for what the iPhone does, in relation to competitors like Blackberry, the price is very attractive. Businesses will snap up iPhones for their employees like crazy.

The iPhone does not offer the same service that a Blackberry with Enterprise Server and Exchange integration does. And that's the type of service businesses need. Most businesses are also practical, they don't spend extra hundreds of dollars just so their employees can play music. An iPhone doesn't offer any increased productivity over a Blackberry.

WishIWasntHere
Jan 29, 2007, 09:37 AM
Well, somebody needs to shake up the dynamics of the wireless industry in the US. The wireless carriers seem to control every aspect of your phone once you're locked into a contract. Is it true that Verizon blocks you from installing 3rd party applications on your phone and also blocks you from an open internet connection? Screw them. It's *your* phone! I have a camera phone but Sprint charges extra to upload the photos from my phone. Some companies severely limit the Bluetooth capabilities of your phone and even disable some features that the phone manufacturers build in. Screw them.

What if Internet service providers forced you to buy computers only through them, blocked you from installing an application that you didn't purchase from them, and limited the features of your computer because they can't find a way to charge you extra for the service that those features would give you?

210
Jan 29, 2007, 09:46 AM
The article mentions what Apple's demands were for Verizon and that Verizon rejected them. We don't know if AT&T kept those demands or did they come to some compromise.

The percentage Apple are asking of AT&T depends on if this is still the case. Also, considering Apple wants to take responsibility in the customer service side, this is work AT&T don't have to do any more, so maybe that's why they want something for it.

Considering quite a few people said they wouldn't get the iPhone because of the price, quite a few others say they will! I think it depends on AT&T's service plan as if it is less because you are buying the 'phone, I'm sure people would buy it.

Apple are a premium company - not in the same league like Bang & Olufsen, but still more than other companies. They charge more because of the desirability of their products. However, this can pay off. iPods were considered ridiculously expensive just for a digital music player, but people still bought it in droves.

Product placement for the iPhone will be sky-high and it will become a sought-after 'phone no matter what the price. The public are influenced by what celebrities have and it's pretty much guaranteed they will all have an iPhone.

Apple are enjoying publicity for the iPhone just like the iPod. You couldn't open a magazine without some mention of the iPod and this was before the commercials were out. 6 months before the iPhone is even out, everyone already knows about it.

As for these conditions set on Cingular/AT&T, I think a little sacrifice will go a long way. Their brand recognition has shot up massively. Not just in the US, but internationally. Most people I have spoken to have never heard of Cingular, but as soon as the iPhone was accounced with a Cingular contract, everyone has now heard of them. Just from one Keynote speech. You can't buy publicity like that.

princealfie
Jan 29, 2007, 09:47 AM
Why is Verizon evil!

http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/05/22/78363_21NNnsaspying_1.html

Enough said.

I want no iphone on verizon! :mad:

puckhead193
Jan 29, 2007, 09:50 AM
God dam i hate verizon, such greedy people

princealfie
Jan 29, 2007, 09:51 AM
God dam i hate verizon, such greedy people

Can you add some more spicier terms? I feel like we need more of a R-rated statement from you. ;)

Rocketman
Jan 29, 2007, 09:56 AM
Wow.

Two things:

1) I don't believe this is true, because I don't think Apple would have started with a non-GSM phone. Apple's a global company, and they would have started their first edition of the iPhone with the global standard, GSM. Cingular and T-Mobile use the GSM standard and Sprint and Verizon Wireless use the CDMA standard (only in the USA and some smaller Asian countries).

2) If it is true, Verizon missed out on a huge opportunity because Apple's offer didn't conform to the industry norm. Tip of the hat to Cingular for breaking the unwritten rules of the cell phone industry.

The Apple job listings for EDGE engineers started about a year ago so it seems clear they had a mid-course correction when Verizon said no.

One wonders what high speed wireless network AT&T (Cingular) is deploying. Has anyone heard? Edge is literally first generation wireless data, and it is pretty clear the long-term plan for iPhone (ATN) is to rely mostly on 802.11 and voip.

Rocketman

rhett121
Jan 29, 2007, 10:00 AM
I hate Verizon to the very core of my being! I actually threw my phone on the ground and broke it I was so furious at the horrible service (both cellular and customer).
Because of the "Rumor" that an Apple phone would launch on Cingular, I went out and bought an unlocked phone and signed up with Cingular service (no contract) and just paid out the last month of my Verizon contract.
If the iPhone had been announced on Verizon I would NOT buy it, even if they were giving them away for free! I hate Verizon that much!

However, I believe that if this were AT&T negotiating, the deal would never have happened either. There is a reason that Cingular became bigger than AT&T wireless, because AT&T has no vision. Remember all of those TV commercials from the 80's touting the wonderful things that AT&T would bring in the future? They didn't deliver on any of them! Other companies did! It's sad that Cingular is now being rolled back into that turd of a company AT&T. I think it's a terrible idea to re-brand Cingular under the horrible brand of AT&T. I only hope they don't screw it up again!

coldmember
Jan 29, 2007, 10:00 AM
What are the chances that Apple just came up with the demands and tossed them to Verizon as a feeler just to see what service providers would or wouldn't provide?

If you know that you're not going to go exclusive with a limited CDMA market, why not test the waters by tossing out a feeler to see what you can reel in? Then, take those lessons learned and move on to the guy you really want to do business with?

iMikeT
Jan 29, 2007, 10:04 AM
What a loss of Verizon's part...:rolleyes:

Rocketman
Jan 29, 2007, 10:05 AM
What if Internet service providers forced you to buy computers only through them, blocked you from installing an application that you didn't purchase from them, and limited the features of your computer because they can't find a way to charge you extra for the service that those features would give you?

Um . . . With all due respect you just described iPhone.

Except they found a way to charge you extra of course.

Rocketman

w00master
Jan 29, 2007, 10:10 AM
you've got it backwards i think.
at&t wireless is becoming cingular.
when i lived in FL i had at&t wireless and it became cingular. then i had to get a new phone to keep their service shortly before moving up here to nc and discovering that cingular blows big time up here.
maybe that's not everywhere in the US but it is in these two states anyway......

Actually, you're both wrong. LOL. It's confusing, but in a nutshell:

Cingular bough AT&T Wireless --> Cingular Wireless

AT&T (The big company) bought Cingular Wireless --> AT&T

Cingular spent BILLIONS of dollars to create their brand, and now to throw it all away. Irony.

w00master

lazyrighteye
Jan 29, 2007, 10:11 AM
Actually Steve probably had a Verizon contract for his phone and that's why we now have an iPhone.

Easily my favorite post of this thread.

C00rDiNaT0r
Jan 29, 2007, 10:13 AM
If you know that you're not going to go exclusive with a limited CDMA market, why not test the waters by tossing out a feeler to see what you can reel in? Then, take those lessons learned and move on to the guy you really want to do business with?

Yea I think some of us here are automatically assuming that Cingular got the same deal as Verizon. Maybe it was a very different deal.

By the way, do we know if Cingular/AT&T's contract require Apple to not make a CDMA version of iPhone for Verizon/Sprint?

Next question is, since iPhone is entering the Asian market so late, anyone think by then they will have a better revision (i.e. 3G, VOIP, 802.11n, 3MP camera, etc.) ready for Asia?

peharri
Jan 29, 2007, 10:21 AM
For those who are saying that they don't believe it due to the GSM/CDMA difference in networks...

remember, this all started 2 years ago. Cingular signed on without ever even seeing the phone. So, it could have been very early in development.

arn

Doesn't matter. Two years ago, Apple would have decided on the technology before shopping around for a slavemaste... erm, I mean carrier.

Choose IS-95/IS-2000 ("CDMA"), and you limit yourself to US carriers and, at the time, Australian, Korean, and Japanese operators (that's three operators BTW, it's not like there was more than one IS-2000 carrier in each country.)

Choose GSM/UMTS, and you have the world at your feet.

And building a phone on two platforms isn't an option either if you actually want to define something that's more than a "Enter digits and hit SEND" type device.

I find it hard enough believing they've signed up to five years of exclusive, locked, phones for Cingular, but that they ever courted Verizon doesn't pass the smell test. About the best I can imagine is that Verizon also passed on it because Jobs also insisted on a network technology change that, despite Vodafone's interest, Verizon was very unwilling to make.

eyebye
Jan 29, 2007, 10:22 AM
From what I've read I would buy the iPhone tomorrow but there is no way in hell I would drop Verizon to get it. Verizon is in a league all its own when it comes to cell coverage and voice network bandwidth. In every major metropolitan area I've been in my Verizon service has always been better than when I had Cingular or T-Mobile. Verizon leads in nearly every satisfaction survey when it comes to coverage and voice quality. That said, Verizon is one greedy company and I hate how they hamstring features to squeeze some extra revenue out of their customers. Still, at the end of the day the network reins supreme and this where Apple is making a huge mistake.

slffl
Jan 29, 2007, 10:22 AM
Good. I'm glad they didn't go with Verizon. They probably wanted to brand the hell out of iPhone including their lame ass red theme, not to mention crippling the bluetooth and everything else about it.

And I really don't see how a device like the iPhone could work on a CDMA network. Last time I checked you couldn't be on a call and use data at the same time. Also, if you were using data your calls would goto voicemail. Is this still the case with EV-DO? It is on my EV-DO phone on sprint. I think being able to use voice and data at the same time is a huge feature.

Finally, for everyone who complains about lack of coverage, 'business features', etc etc. Apple makes products for consumers. Have you seen a mac ad lately? Obviously they aren't going after the business crowd. I for one don't need exchange push email, I don't need coverage in caves, and I don't need the high prices that go along with that.

war
Jan 29, 2007, 10:22 AM
Look at the wikipedia entry for cingular

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cingular

The at&t of today is not the AT&T of yesterday. The new at&t is just the old SBC telecom company with the at&t logo on it since they bought AT&T. Cingular is owned by SBC (now the new at&t) and BellSouth (now the new at&t) so it made sense to rename cingular to at&t so the company would all be under one umbrella name. It's simple branding.

joeconvert
Jan 29, 2007, 10:23 AM
Apple needed Verizon more than Verizon needed apple. Hell apple needs the cellular companies more than they need apple and yet apple demands to be the one in control.. typical apple. I wonder if after being told off by Verizon they change there demands quite a bit.

Slightly disagree. I current have two voice lines with Verizon, one of them being connected to a Treo 700w with a PDA data plan. Additionally I have a mobile PC CARD with Verizon. I spend about $270 a month with Verizon and I never come close to touching the minute cap. I am the kind of customer Verizon wants. Now, once the iphone is 3G, I'm gone.

TheBobcat
Jan 29, 2007, 10:26 AM
I'm actually suprised that Cingular is going to go back to AT&T for nomenclature. AT&T had a horrible reputation, (at least in Michigan and surrounding areas), while Cingluar has a markedly better one. Well, try and explain to anyone the telcom name changes and mergers and your head will spin.

While I don't think this rumor is true, it is very feasible. CDMA is old and pretty scarce on a global stage, and it just seems unlike Apple to adopt such a thing.

Of course, Verizon's size and decent reception reputation could also have a lot to do with Apple considering CDMA, if they did. Either way, I think its good for Apple that they didn't let the iPhone become a "Verizon Product" like many phones are seen. Verizon destroys their phones to force you to pay for their gouged services, and Apple wanted none of that (plus a cut). Either way, I say given the American carriers, Cingluar was the best choice if you were Apple. And since the iPhone is pretty much intact with all you would expect, we made out OK too.

mmzplanet
Jan 29, 2007, 10:27 AM
Also I cannot see Steve allowing a company that has such horrendous UI, to put input into the look and function of the iPhone.

It is strange seeing an Apple fan bash another company for making things easier for the common user. While the Verizon UI is not the greatest, it makes it easy for the common user out there to get a different phone from another manufacturer and still have a UI that they are familiar with. Verizon wants an Apple like control over user experience on a cell phone. So its natural that they bumped heads on this issue. With that said, its doubtful that contributed to this rumor. Verizon sells phones with an unaltered Windows Mobile interface. So the iPhone would have been left alone.

Why I think the iPhone may not work well...All the griping on here is about geek stuff that 90% or more of a cell phone user base even cares about. CDMA or GSM? They dont have a clue. Is it "global", again they dont care, they want it to work where they live. My family recently got a Mac. They have no clue what make OS X what it is... as far as they are concerned it just works.

I am very tech knowledgeable, but with phones I draw the line. I want one thing from a phone.... I want it to be just that.... a phone. My Verizon RAZR does everything i need... it makes calls, clearly. As a little extra, iSync puts my calendars, alarms and contacts on my phone with bluetooth. Crippled for a geek? Sure. For me and most others? Not really.


My last comment... I never thought I'd see the day that AT&T would be credited for GOOD customer service.

csimmons
Jan 29, 2007, 10:28 AM
Right now it is a matter of IF it becomes a run away success. Lets get the product to the market first.

Also keep in mind, as much as the iPhone is very fancy, there are other phones that will get to market either before or close to the same time as Apple with basically the same functionality (Samsung?). IF all of these phones offer basically the same features, then $$ will come into play very quickly. I would like an Apple iPhone but the extra $200 up front is too much (example only).

Obviously a lot of people here are more than willing to cough up the $$ for the Apple phone, but then you would expect that on Apple forum. For too many people the cost of the phone up front removes them from the potential market and they will go with a much less expensive device.

This is a typical arguement from those who still don't understand why the iPod was a success and why the iPhone will likely be successful.

How many features a device has is only a small part of the big picture: it's the UI and the total value of the device that sets it apart from what's currently on the market.

What good does it do to have a device loaded with features if the UI sucks?
:confused:

peharri
Jan 29, 2007, 10:29 AM
well it is understandable why the US GSM coverage is weaker than the CMDA. CMDA/Analog both have a wider cover range per tower so it take fewer towers to cover everywhere.

On top of that the US has a lot much lower population density than other countries that has good cell phone coverage and a hell of a lot more land area to cover. That takes time and money and you have fewer people using each tower. I would not be surprised in the least to see Canad in the same boat just because there is just a huge area to cover with relatively few people in range of each tower. And the towers I believe I saw a figure that put them at about $800,000 each to put up. That not counting operational cost that goes with each tower as well.

This is one of those myths that I thought was debunked years ago, but... I guess the fight against the damage Qualcomm's army of shills did still needs to be fought.

GSM has a maximum range from the tower of about 25 miles (35km), that means you can get away with towers spaced around 50 miles apart, if you're cheap.

In practice, neither GSM nor IS-95 have any real advantages over one another in terms of range. An ordinary IS-95 phone isn't going to transmit more than 25 miles away, because the 1-2W maximum power for a handset just doesn't go that far, especially with no clear line-of-sight. The theoretical range of IS-95 is only achievable with a high-wattage carphone. When was the last time you saw one of those?

The US's population metrics actually mirror those of Finland, which isn't exactly known as a GSM blackspot. And as a former Sprint PCS user, and a current T-Mobile user, I can assure you Sprint's (IS-95) coverage here in typical Anytown-USA Florida is no better than (GSM) T-Mobile's.

bretm
Jan 29, 2007, 10:36 AM
Well, seems Verizon lost out on this one. Cingular might pick up lots
of new customers as a result. Besides, once phones are unlocked
and hit the eBay marketplace, they'll be used on other networks.

Except the cool feature for random access voice mail (which also appears as a list on your phone) only works with cingular because it's a dynamic application working with the phone.

You can bet more integration like this will be in the shipping product, making unlocking it kinda pointless.

mikeh123
Jan 29, 2007, 10:37 AM
$400 - $500 is not that steep for the phone itself as a product.

Check out the unlocked high end phones or smart phones and they all range between $400 and $800.

Now the key is the contract elelment that you are tied into. Now if you don't like Cingular - Tough - no amount of justification or whining is going to make a jot of difference. I think the price point with contract is not cheap by any means but sits reasonably well within the market they are hitting. Ipods are not cheap in comparison to other players (generally have been) and they do rely on their design and market position and reputation.

You dont like Cingular you dont have an iPhone (unless of course it is possible to unlock but I think Apple will have a way of verifying against carrier to work).

The UK market is still unknown but I expect they will sign up with a company with good European coverage and tie the phone to that carrier. Cingular have had to do work on their side of things to allow the phone to work as apple want and Uk providers will have to provide the same guarantees and features.

We will find out soon enough.

blitzkrieg79
Jan 29, 2007, 10:51 AM
$400 - $500 is not that steep for the phone itself as a product.

Check out the unlocked high end phones or smart phones and they all range between $400 and $800.

Now the key is the contract elelment that you are tied into. Now if you don't like Cingular - Tough - no amount of justification or whining is going to make a jot of difference. I think the price point with contract is not cheap by any means but sits reasonably well within the market they are hitting. Ipods are not cheap in comparison to other players (generally have been) and they do rely on their design and market position and reputation.

You dont like Cingular you dont have an iPhone (unless of course it is possible to unlock but I think Apple will have a way of verifying against carrier to work).

The UK market is still unknown but I expect they will sign up with a company with good European coverage and tie the phone to that carrier. Cingular have had to do work on their side of things to allow the phone to work as apple want and Uk providers will have to provide the same guarantees and features.

We will find out soon enough.

$500 is a lot for any cell phone any way you look at it. Most people buy cell phones along with the plan (most of the time when you sign up for 2 years you get the actual phone for free or for $50, if Apple and Cingular woudl offer the iPhone for lets say $100 with a contract then there would be no discussion but $500 with a contract seems like a lot to me). Apple wants to sell around 10 million iPhones in one year, and I ask the question who the hell will buy it at that price point? iPhone for average consumer is too expensive and no matter how cool it is price will play an important factor. Business users don't want to spend extra money on not needed features such as built in cameras or MP3 players.

People bring up the iPod that it also was supposed to fail, the difference is that iPod is basically priced right there with all the other MP3 players, not that much more expensive. Besides, not everything Apple does is a guaranteed automatic success, they have failed miserably with a lot of revolutionary products before.

peharri
Jan 29, 2007, 10:52 AM
Living in the UK, I can't understand the difference between Cingular / Verizon / Sprint / etc. What I do know is, on the day the iPhone was announced, on MacRumors all I saw were you guys in the US saying what a tragedy it was that it was exclusive to Cingular...

Now, the majority of the posts in this thread are... "I'm switching to Cingular asap", "Verizon is rubbish, Cingular here I come", etc.

What's going on? :confused:

Has Cingular got better in two weeks? Were you just annoyed that it was a locked phone (understandable)? Or are all the Cingular bashers staying away from this thread? Explain please...

Nothing, it's just different people. Plus, in the UK you're used to acceptable pre-paid systems and relatively low contracts (though I've noticed 18mo contracts are beginning to creep in.) In the US, they make it fairly hard to get an acceptable plan that doesn't involve signing up for two, or even three, years at a time.

So people have various reasons to like carrier A and "hate" carrier B:

- In their area, A's great and B sucks, at least in their limited experience. (Remember, "in their area" could mean "In my kitchen, and in the cubicle where I work")
- They signed up to carrier A, and wouldn't admit it's a bad idea if carrier A invoked the "You must get rid of your landline and only browse the Internet on our network, and then at 1c/kb" clause in the contract they never noticed before.
- They simply like carrier A more, and it's carrier B that has the iPhone.
- They signed up to carrier B, had a minor issue that customer service turned into a major one, and now hate carrier B with a passion.

The fact that national carriers in the US are a relatively new phenomenom also doesn't help. There are swathes of the country unserved by anyone who uses your carrier's technology, and most US carriers have to rely upon roaming agreements with each other to acheive anything approximating to the type of coverage you might be used to with Vodafone or Orange. This is in part because of the lack of standardization, and in part because the FCC, for reasons I still think are absurd to this day, thinks it's a great idea to auction spectrum in clusters of counties, rather than nationwide. So very often, a "national" carrier can't even offer service where they want.

Essentially, US operators require long contracts. They all have huge coverage holes. The decision not to regulate, while having some good points, means operators are free to be power-crazy, and that seems to be a common fault of the IS-95/2000 operators, particularly Verizon. There are more reasons to hate an operator, and plenty of people who'll get very fanboyish over them because one operator happens to fit them at that precise moment in time.

Nuc
Jan 29, 2007, 10:53 AM
Not sure if anyone has posted this link (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=269239&highlight=verizon). But engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/12/verizon-increases-sms-rates-customers-now-free-of-their-contr/) has an article that says you may be able to get of your contract with Verizon.

Nuc

lazyrighteye
Jan 29, 2007, 11:05 AM
(I'm sure it has been asked) Does anyone here think Apple will eventually, after contracts expire w/ Cingular, go their own route? Meaning, act as service provider, offering total control of the user experience? That maybe this whole Cingular thing is just to gain experience in a complex industry they have zero experience with?

I obviously don't fully understand the layers of complexity of doing such, but when I think back to that data center acquisition... just makes me wonder.

Data center + iPhone rumors had me SO hoping Apple would at least go the MVNO route. For now, I'll gladly kick VZW to the curb and go Cingular (as much as I loath VZW, they're all the same - they all cripple features, they all drop calls, they all have bloated service fees and they all offer up unacceptable customer service/experience) just to start using the phone. Hopefully, one day it will be all Apple.

bayportbob
Jan 29, 2007, 11:16 AM
i would have preferred iPhone on Verizon because Verizon coverage is better nationwide than Cingular/AT&T. i have been with Verizon since they were PrimeCo and don't want to change because my phone works well almost everywhere i travel which is what i desire with my mobile phone provider.

i would like to get an iPhone just to have one not cause i need it, you know how that goes. but i really have not heard a lot good about Cingular/AT&T for phone network coverage the same as i have heard good about Verizon. that is the deal breaker for me to switch.

maybe in 5 years the iPhone will be on more networks, or not, only time will tell if this iPhone - Cingular/AT&T marriage is going to be a good one.

gugy
Jan 29, 2007, 11:27 AM
If Verizon was the iPhone carrier, it would make my adoption of it much easier since they are my carrier to date. I live where Verizon works much better than Cingular and thus would be trading better signal coverage for worse if I were to adopt an iPhone. So I'm torn about this. :confused: :eek: :(

I am exactly in the same boat as you.
Unfortunately Verizon seems to work better where I live. I need to do a test drive get Cingular phone from a friend and see if they improved their reception since the last time I was their customer 5 years ago.
If I can get reception, then I am pretty sure I'll switch to Cingular, as long as they offer a discount in their plans. If not, I will keep my Verizon and wait for the 5" widescreen iPod and just move on with life.

From what I've read I would buy the iPhone tomorrow but there is no way in hell I would drop Verizon to get it. Verizon is in a league all its own when it comes to cell coverage and voice network bandwidth. In every major metropolitan area I've been in my Verizon service has always been better than when I had Cingular or T-Mobile. Verizon leads in nearly every satisfaction survey when it comes to coverage and voice quality. That said, Verizon is one greedy company and I hate how they hamstring features to squeeze some extra revenue out of their customers. Still, at the end of the day the network reins supreme and this where Apple is making a huge mistake.


Ditto.
I just hope Cingular has a better coverage now where i live. If not, why would I want the best phone in the world(iPhone) if I can't use it?:eek:

thumb
Jan 29, 2007, 11:34 AM
I am very glad Apple is trying to change the way cell carriers handle their phones and customer service. Verizon has a deplorable history of handicapping their handsets, an amount of control over another companies products that Jobs would never accept. For me, I would rather the carrier company be invisible, and my choices be which phone manufacturer, not the other way around.

Mulyahnto
Jan 29, 2007, 11:35 AM
i would have preferred iPhone on Verizon because Verizon coverage is better nationwide than Cingular/AT&T. i have been with Verizon since they were PrimeCo and don't want to change because my phone works well almost everywhere i travel which is what i desire with my mobile phone provider.

i would like to get an iPhone just to have one not cause i need it, you know how that goes. but i really have not heard a lot good about Cingular/AT&T for phone network coverage the same as i have heard good about Verizon. that is the deal breaker for me to switch.

maybe in 5 years the iPhone will be on more networks, or not, only time will tell if this iPhone - Cingular/AT&T marriage is going to be a good one.

One word why to chose Cingular over Verizon: GSM

pagansoul
Jan 29, 2007, 11:44 AM
I live in the Atlanta, Georgia area and have had both Cing and T cells and never had any problem with their services. Never had a Verizon phone but the people that I work with don't have any problem. The thing is is that I never used the extra stuff on my phones, only talk. I've purchased only one ring-tone just to see how it worked. I love the look of the iphone but don't see me getting one this year. This year I am saving for a new Mac Pro. I have a PPC iMac that is on its 3rd year so that is that. I do not understand why people are getting so crazy about the contract/deals made between Apple and AT&T/Cing/BellS...we will see the end product in June. Just don't start any new contracts and wait it out.

Sweetfeld28
Jan 29, 2007, 11:45 AM
The main reason I am switching to Cingular, from Verizon, isn't because of the Service Coverage, its because of: The iPhone and because of Verizon's prices, disabled features on Phones, and because their Customer Service sucks.

I would of switched a long time ago, if it wasn't for my friend being a Rep. for Verizon talking me into staying. But, since Verizon decided to raise the price of each Text Message sent or received from/to your phone by 5 cents, it has since pissed me off.

Digg This (http://digg.com/tech_news/Cancel_your_account_without_a_Penalty_Verizon_Raises_Text_Messaging_Fees)

robbyx
Jan 29, 2007, 11:49 AM
I'm so happy Apple didn't go with Verizon. If there's one company out there I cannot stand, it's Verizon. I've never experienced worse customer service from anyone (repeatedly). Cingular, on the other hand, has very good service. Apple made the right move by going with Cingular. Verizon would surely have soiled Apple's good name in one way or another.

SplinterCell
Jan 29, 2007, 11:49 AM
Just out of curiosity, how much will it cost Verizon or Sprint users to DROP their contract early? Anybody know? :confused:

$200 for T-Mobile. I checked but I don't think I'll switch. T-Mobile plans & service is far better than Cingular's...But the iPhone & it's features are temping.

rdrr
Jan 29, 2007, 11:51 AM
It amazes me that Verizon is still in business if they don't know the difference between dollars and cents. :)

http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/

iomar
Jan 29, 2007, 11:55 AM
Even though I love my verizon and I hate cingular but to get the iphone I will switch from verizon to cingular.. I think this is a big loss for Verizon.

seashellz2
Jan 29, 2007, 11:58 AM
that as they are mass produced, the cost of the iPhone will come down somewhat, driving even more people to buy them, in DROVES.
Verizon will come crawling to APPLE on its knees when it sees how many of it's customers are driven to Cingular...again, in DROVES.
Word my mark!
So true:
>>"If I had a Verizon store in my basement, I would still rather deal with Apple...."
too funny for words
Being one of the last few Trogledites not having a cell phone, I seem to recall that ATT service sucked-
'scuse me if my memory is wrong.
Now 2 ugly companies are merging-and already ATT is phasing the Verison logo off of phones, Company letterheads, and ads. Soon the word "Verizon" will be a memory-like say PAN AM...

flashphire
Jan 29, 2007, 12:00 PM
Man, everybody's really hating on Cingular. I've had no troubles with it at all ever. Also, if you want to get out of your contract with other carriers, there's plenty of websites that offer advice on how to get out of your current contract without paying the termination fees. For instance, if they change their pricing on text messages- you can usually get out of your contract (since they've already broken it). So search around, because although it's not easy- getting out of your contract without paying is certainly not impossible.

ChrisA
Jan 29, 2007, 12:06 PM
Demanding a % out of the contract is a little over board.


Not really. The way it works now is you buy a phone a steep discount (below cost) from the service provider. and then part of the monthly service charge goes to pay for the phone. The typical contract now has maybe half the monthly fee going to pay for ther phone and half for service. What Apple was saying is that if the customer pays for the phone up front the service provider does not need so much mony every month because it is not having to cover the loss on the phone. So Apple was asking for a cut because Apple was bringing customers to the phone service company.

Looks like Cingular/ATT really is saving some money not having to provide discounted a phone hence the rumors for service discounts on Apple phones. I wonder how much of a typical contract is really finacing on the phone?

Rychiar
Jan 29, 2007, 12:24 PM
people bash verizon alot but they relaly do have the best coverage. on the east coast at least. I get better service than any of my non VZ friends. Customer service has always been grreat on the phone tho the instore people are dicks. but i've had phones replaced multiple times and they alwasy freely replace batteries. Leather cases and headsets and car chargers are also included standard with every phone unlike other places. Verizon at least lets u affordably use texting. I looked at cingular data plans and they seem utterly insane next to all the free in network stuff im used to with verizon. I am switchin for the iPhone as my verizon contract is up and my phone is ancient but i will likely regret changing carriers:(

EstorilM
Jan 29, 2007, 12:38 PM
5yrs...geeeesh!

I really dislike my Verizon service, so I have been looking for an excuse to change. The iPhone is perfect. I want it...Cingular here I come...

+1, especially with their service.

I'm kinda pissed that I just bought (rather, HAD TO because they wouldn't replace my 815 that dropped dead randomly for NO REASON, perfect condition) a VX8600 Chocolate Flip. I would have much rather put that $250 towards an iPhone in June. :(

SiliconAddict
Jan 29, 2007, 12:44 PM
5 years with Cingular (AT&T)?

Guess I'll be switching as soon as my contract runs out! :D



Sad. Really sad the day a phone is more important then the service you are getting. Be it customer, telephony, or data. This is why certain business have gotten so powerful in this country. People aren't willing to flip em the bird and go somewhere else. As such companies, like AT&T\Cingular, will continue to walk all over their customers as they gladly shell out a [bleep] load of money per month. Sad.

mi5moav
Jan 29, 2007, 12:49 PM
If Verizon where the carrier they would probably hijack my phone and make me put Windows Mobile on it. My wife finally gave up Verizon for T-Mobile last month. She had been brainwashed all those years, now she has no reason why she kept her overpriced phone and ridiculously expensive rate plan.

robertnq
Jan 29, 2007, 12:52 PM
My contract is up in November...and I have no complaints about Verizon what so ever...

but I want that damn :apple:Phone...sorry

SiliconAddict
Jan 29, 2007, 12:52 PM
Man, everybody's really hating on Cingular. I've had no troubles with it at all ever. Also, if you want to get out of your contract with other carriers, there's plenty of websites that offer advice on how to get out of your current contract without paying the termination fees. For instance, if they change their pricing on text messages- you can usually get out of your contract (since they've already broken it). So search around, because although it's not easy- getting out of your contract without paying is certainly not impossible.



I do not know a SINGLE Cingular customer who likes or even loves them. The best I've been able to get is meh...they are OK. The complaints range from their coverage maps being outright lies, to customer service that blows with hurricane force, to mysterious upgrades on their service, to getting major run arounds when you try and cancel your service, and on and on and on. All this coming from several dozen people ranging from corp accounts, to personal accounts.
Frankly I'd rather go without a cellphone then go with Cingular. what it boils down to is that Apple has gotten in bed with the Microsoft of the mobile phone industry. :(

PBGPowerbook
Jan 29, 2007, 01:09 PM
One wonders what high speed wireless network AT&T (Cingular) is deploying. Has anyone heard? Rocketman

One does not wonder. HSDPA is active on cingular in a few areas, about to go up to 3.6Mbits. They have a few handsets ('blackjack', RAZR, 8525) that use it. And Jobs has said that there will be a 3G iphone (hsdpa on cingular) later on when more area is covered. There was a mini speculative debate on some sites recently as to whether this would be a software/firmware upgrade or entail a new device.

lukeisme09
Jan 29, 2007, 01:09 PM
with the combination of apple's great products and cingular's great service i can bet that thousands of people will switch to cingular. cingular is promoting this phone like no body's business. and we will probably start to see some apple commercials that are promoting the i phone. Im not sure where i am going at except for i really, really wish i owned cingular right now. $$$$$$:D

tutubibi
Jan 29, 2007, 01:21 PM
Verizon is going to rue the day they turned down this deal. When the iPhone becomes a run-away success there are going to be some unhappy board members over there. AT&T will siphone away custumers and Verizon will give Apple whatever they want when the AT&T deal is up.

Consider where the iPod landed five years after it's debut. I think it's foregone conclusion the iPhone is going to be an even bigger success story for Apple.

I don't think iPhone will be huge success story. Personally, I don't find it too appealing considering restrictions, price and (non)availability.

phillipjfry
Jan 29, 2007, 01:29 PM
Is there any reason that you guys discuss this other than that you live in Australia? Like when you post these things are you of the opinion that most readers are interested in telecommunications markets in Australia or that these markets significantly impact Apple and AT&T's business development and relationship?...
...For so long, I was optimistic about our chances of adding anything insightful. But day-by-day we fill these pages with what seems an endless, a cacophony, a plethora, a deluge, a lot of words and little else. We ramble on endlessly, never caring when, and if, we repeat each other. In fact, getting more posts rewards us as the all-important metric will go up as a result regardless of repition or whether what we say has anything to do with the issue at hand...
...And where are all of us who are willing to say maybe and let’s wait and see. In a few months, we’ll know more, for example, about whether we have a revolution or a flop.

I like long-winded threads like this, it gives some of us something to read while waiting for work to be done :)

In regards to the OP:
I believe Apple had its sights on Cingular all along. It first went to Verizon to try and bait the attention of Cingular, gave outrageous demands knowing Verizon wouldn't dare accept them, and made Cingular putty in their (Apple) hands. The iPhone will make a dent in the market, people will switch (or stay) with Cingular. But without a product on the market, promises will be made, posts will be highly flammable and only in June will we be able to actually provide details on how awesome the iPhone will be. Remember, the phone isn't even done yet. You don't know what features the phone will (not) have, no matter what the rumors claim. After all, that's why they are called 'rumors'. :)

MacAddict1978
Jan 29, 2007, 01:53 PM
We forget that though an i-pod is less exensive, it lacks the video features of the i-phone. Combine the price of a new phone (because even some phones with a contract renewal or as a new customer still can cost you $50-$200 if they are the hot new thing) the price of the i-phone is not out of line. Ditch a palm pilot and u have 3 devices (almost 4) in one unit. I don't think the price will scare hardly anyone off.

And so what if you go to apple for service? Year after year they are ranked in the top 5 for cusotmer service in their industry and beyond. Having used the top 3 carriers (sprint, att&t/cingular, and verizon) I would be elated to have apple handle my tech issues over their people or a third party insurance company. And hey, be able to talk to a person who speaks english and has a vested interest in the success of a product! I'm sure apple's strategy for service will not change on iphone. Your ipod stops working under apple care, they just give u a new one (sometimes a better model than what you bought 2 years ago).

I think without the phone feature the price of this device is fairly in line for the technology you are getting.

The only drawback I see to the phone is storage space.... (nano/mini anyone?) and that didn't stop people from buying with that factor before.

This is a win win for both parties. Verizon is notorius for bad service and crappy phones.

And network.... they all have the biggest, best, most powerful network according to their campaigns.

Gasu E.
Jan 29, 2007, 01:54 PM
Apple needed Verizon more than Verizon needed apple. Hell apple needs the cellular companies more than they need apple and yet apple demands to be the one in control.. typical apple.

Now Apple has the biggest cell phone company. And for the rest, including Verizon, it's one more competitive disadvantage.

Actually, you're both wrong. LOL. It's confusing, but in a nutshell:

Cingular bough AT&T Wireless --> Cingular Wireless

AT&T (The big company) bought Cingular Wireless --> AT&T

Cingular spent BILLIONS of dollars to create their brand, and now to throw it all away. Irony.

w00master

Add to that: SBC (a big company, and former baby bell) bought the near defunct AT&T solely for their name.

Even after all these years and BILLIONS of dollars, "AT&T" is still the strongest brand name in US telecom, and the only US telecom brand that has any international cachet.

yg17
Jan 29, 2007, 02:13 PM
I do not know a SINGLE Cingular customer who likes or even loves them. The best I've been able to get is meh...they are OK. The complaints range from their coverage maps being outright lies, to customer service that blows with hurricane force, to mysterious upgrades on their service, to getting major run arounds when you try and cancel your service, and on and on and on. All this coming from several dozen people ranging from corp accounts, to personal accounts.
Frankly I'd rather go without a cellphone then go with Cingular. what it boils down to is that Apple has gotten in bed with the Microsoft of the mobile phone industry. :(

I found the easiest way to cancel my Suckgular contract was not to call and talk to some guy named "John" in New Dehli, but to port the number over to a better carrier. Port=auto cancel :D

But yeah, I couldn't imagine attempting to call them to cancel. It would probably be horrible. Their customer service doesn't just blow with hurricane force.....they're 4 hurricane Katrinas and the customers are New Orelans :D

donlphi
Jan 29, 2007, 02:29 PM
Okay... let's not get the iPhone... let's just wait for the Apple Ultra-Portable MacBook Pro w/ 12" widescreen and a Slot for my Sprint EV-DO Rev. A card.

Problem solved. :D

Next rumor please.

SiliconAddict
Jan 29, 2007, 02:31 PM
Add to that: SBC (a big company, and former baby bell) bought the near defunct AT&T solely for their name.

Even after all these years and BILLIONS of dollars, "AT&T" is still the strongest brand name in US telecom, and the only US telecom brand that has any international cachet.

A better summery.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj1Mtv9cD0I

:D

Porchland
Jan 29, 2007, 02:49 PM
Apple needed Verizon more than Verizon needed apple. Hell apple needs the cellular companies more than they need apple and yet apple demands to be the one in control.. typical apple. I wonder if after being told off by Verizon they change there demands quite a bit.

Your first statement conflicts with your second.

Apple didn't need Verizon at all because Cingular/AT&T gives them the exact same thing -- a nationwide carrier with a large market share. When the exclusivity period runs out and the iPhone is the No. 1 phone in the country in America, the other carriers will all want it.

The fact that Apple will eventually want all of the carriers doesn't mean it needs Verizon or any other single carrier.

autrefois
Jan 29, 2007, 02:52 PM
Living in the UK, I can't understand the difference between Cingular / Verizon / Sprint / etc. What I do know is, on the day the iPhone was announced, on MacRumors all I saw were you guys in the US saying what a tragedy it was that it was exclusive to Cingular...

Now, the majority of the posts in this thread are... "I'm switching to Cingular asap", "Verizon is rubbish, Cingular here I come", etc.

What's going on? :confused:

Has Cingular got better in two weeks? Were you just annoyed that it was a locked phone (understandable)? Or are all the Cingular bashers staying away from this thread? Explain please...

You apparently aren't familiar with the cycle:

Apple makes a controversial/questionable move. Tons (usually a majority) of people moan and groan. Negative comments and questions abound and are generally acceptable albeit contested, while a minority of voices support Apple.

A few days go by. More and more people start to find arguments explaining why Apple made that move. Obviously Apple knows what it's doing, look at past history (iPod, etc.). It's about half and half.

In a couple of weeks, the majory of people declare that Apple obviously knew what it was doing all along and that anyone who doesn't agree is obviously uninformed or doesn't trust/like Apple enough.

Does the number of people on each side change? Probably, because a lot of people here are well informed and some disinformation is cleared up. But in some cases, I think naysayers just lose their resolve eventually. That's why you'll see a lot of negative rankings even when most comments are positive or neutral.

Are the naysayers usually right or wrong? Depends on your perspective. Apple as a company are doing magnificently financially right now. This doesn't necessarily mean they do the best for their customers or for advancing technology in general, but their goal is to make money.

Could they be doing better financially or marketshare-wise if they used other strategies? Probably in some cases, but it's hard to say. As long as Steve Jobs is at the head of the company, there will be plenty of times when they do something that seems crazy or maybe is crazy, but for whatever reason (reality distortion field, luck/karma, business acumen) these crazy things work...a lot of the time.

Porchland
Jan 29, 2007, 03:11 PM
Actually, you're both wrong. LOL. It's confusing, but in a nutshell:

Cingular bough AT&T Wireless --> Cingular Wireless

AT&T (The big company) bought Cingular Wireless --> AT&T

Cingular spent BILLIONS of dollars to create their brand, and now to throw it all away. Irony.

w00master

That's not exactly right.

In 2001, SBC and BellSouth formed Cingular as a joint venture, combining their collective wireless assets into one company.

In 2004, Cingular bought AT&T Wireless for $41 billion. (AT&T had been broken into several chunks, one of which was the wireless business.)

In 2005, SBC -- which owned part of Cingular -- bought AT&T (another chunk that was not the wireless chunk) for $16 billion and adopted its name.

In 2006, AT&T (i.e. SBC) bought BellSouth for $85 billion, putting Cingular -- owned by SBC and BellSouth -- under one roof.

AT&T is now more or less four of the the original Baby Bells (Pacific Bell, Southwestern Bell, BellSouth and Ameritech) that resulted from the 1984 divestiture of AT&T (long distance) from the Regional Bell Operating Companies (local carriers). The other original Baby Bells are now Qwest (US West) and Verizon (Nynex and Bell Atlantic).

When in doubt, wiki.

And yeah, dumping the Cingular brand is stupid.

wnurse
Jan 29, 2007, 03:24 PM
Yet another reason why I do not like Verizon and cannot wait until my contract is up :)

You don't like verizon becuase they didn't want apple to own their customers?. Actually, I think Verizon is smart and cingular is stupid if they signed such a deal. Apple independent dealers have a thing or two to tell cingular. Remember when apple independent dealers were told they had to push apple protection plans and not only that, but to hand apple their customers list and many independent dealers were complaining about how apple would call their customers behind their backs?. Yeah. Everyone was on apple side on that, claiming that the independent dealers suck, yada, yada, yada. Well, why would verizon agree to hand over to apple their customers?. We'll see how smart cingular is within 5 years when apple decides to start their own cell phone companies and have at their fingertips the phone numbers and contact data for all of cingular customers. Cingular is in business to make money, not be cool to apple fans. If i were a cingular shareholder, i'd be furious. Customer data is not free. Companies pay billions for customer data and yet not only is apple acquiring customer data for free (this data they can use when and if they decide to start their own cell phone company) but they are demanding carriers pay for the privelege of divulging their business secret. Wow, that is amazing. If i was a verizon shareholder, i'd be loving them right now. Cingular, you have just bought yourself short term boost but long term, you have given the market to verizon. The apple phone is not gonna put verizon out of business.. it will not even make that significant a dent to verizon (how many people are gonna pay $500 for a phone?.. not me for sure) but all verizon has to do is sit back and wait inevitably for apple to stab cingular in the back.

Rot'nApple
Jan 29, 2007, 03:31 PM
I understand your comments here, but it still doesn't really explain why everyone, all of a sudden, is all for getting a Cingular iPhone. I would say (and I'm sure there was a poll on it straight after the Keynote), that 80% were against getting the iPhone in the US; now it seems to be 80% want it, and not only that, but are bashing the competing carriers... :confused:

To those in the UK with me... do we find any one carrier better / worse than all the others? Coverage seems to be fine with most carriers. I've been with T-Mobile, Orange, 02 and '3', and - except for poor customer service with '3' - I'd say they were pretty similar... any comments?

I'm with Orange now (student deal), therefore I hope they get the iPhone. But I wouldn't worry that much about switching if someone else got it.

You can't handle the truth! Sorry, I just had to add that tag line from the movie "A Few Good Men" with Tom Cruise and Jack Nicolson.

Jack Nicolson's character has the answer to your question. It went something like this in the movie, "I'm an educated man, but I am affraid I can't speak intelligently on the travel habits of William Santiago".

I'm an educated person but I am afraid I can't speak intelligently on the rantings of Americans other than to say, we love to be opposite because it will agitate someone, somewhere. It's not a hate thing or anything like that, it's just an American thing.

That is why someone can bash Cingular one day and then say I'm switching to them the next. They may not want Cingular's service, for whatever their reason, but they are forced to, so they bash. They do want the Apple iPhone, therefore they are willing to go with Cingular in their next "rant" post. Regarding why Cingular was bashed first, then accepted and now everone has moved on bashing Verizon or Sprint or whatever, that is just because Americans love to gripe!

Hope that helps.:D

richard4339
Jan 29, 2007, 03:33 PM
My quandry is simple; Verizon clearly sucks, they have horrible customer service and lock down everything so they can make money off of it. Unfortunately, in my area, the only cell phone company with reception worth using is Verizon; Cingular's "Least Dropped Calls" argument does not hold up here. TMobile is gaining on Verizon in reliability, but I don't really want to use them for personal reasons (I worked for a TMobile store once, didn't like their practices). The thing is, I'd love an iPhone, but in this area, I'd definately be sacrificing reliability.

Disclaimer: I want to clarify before a TMobile employee attacks; I worked for a TMobile authorized retailer and it was their practices I did not like, not TMobile as a whole. As a result, I would just prefer to not work for them. Strangely enough, they are now a Sprint authorized retailer.

wnurse
Jan 29, 2007, 03:34 PM
with the combination of apple's great products and cingular's great service i can bet that thousands of people will switch to cingular. cingular is promoting this phone like no body's business. and we will probably start to see some apple commercials that are promoting the i phone. Im not sure where i am going at except for i really, really wish i owned cingular right now. $$$$$$:D

Go ahead, buy cingular and hope millions of people will fork over $500 cause we like, don't have anything better to do with our money. Only people who are interested in looking cool will fork over their money, usually, those people are single digits percentage (ask apple, they should know.. afterall their marketshare for computers are single digits). Yeah, run, don't walk to get cingular shares and in 5 years when apple stabs them in the back by forming their own cell phone company and stealing cingular customers (to which they will have customer data readily available).. please don't forget to dump the stock like a hot radioactive potato. I think Verizon will live. There are many cool phones on the market and for the people who don't care to plunk $500 for a phone, verizon will seem like a excellent choice (also for those that like to be connected). Personally, i am not a verizon customer but in the washingto dc area, they have the best reception. At the end of the day, a phone is a phone and a cardinal sin is for a phone not being able to make a call (playing music and browsing pictures are just nice perks).

People said the very same thing when the iPod was introduced.

I would argue for what the iPhone does, in relation to competitors like Blackberry, the price is very attractive. Businesses will snap up iPhones for their employees like crazy.

Why?. Will the iphone have push email?. Will it be able to access corporate networks. Will it have a multitude of third party programs (oh wait, i remember stevie saying something about that). You are too hilarious. Yeah, companies can't wait to give their employees a device whoose main strength will be that it can play music from the itunes store. We all know what a productivity tool that is. Forget reading corporate email, access corporate documents (word, pdf, etc). No!!!.. corporations have been dying for a device that would allow their employees to play music from itunes, see cover art, transer their photos. Damn corporate documents. Those are boring anyway!. As for push email. Bleh, corporations can do without that. Who needs email anyway when you can give your employees an overpriced ipod that can make phone calls. Personally, i have always had a disdain for blackberries which can be had for 299 (some models).. personally, i think they are too cheap. I've been saving my hard earned cash for a really expensive phone. I know i for one will get the $600 version and $500 is too cheap for me.

aixia
Jan 29, 2007, 03:53 PM
I've used Verizon and Cingular (and AT&T) and I use Verizon currently. While I'm disappointed that I won't have the option of having an iPhone anytime soon, I'm NOT switching. First off, I don't have $500 to spend on a phone, that's ludicrous. I get the freebie (or cheapie) phone every two years when I renew my contract, I don't see much point in shelling out that kind of money for a phone. But second, I had so many problems with both AT&T and Cingular when I had them it was pathetic. I was in rural Utah, and they were the only choice in terms of coverage. However, they both, a year apart, signed me up for the wrong plan (pay-as-you-go) and charged me more than I'd agreed to. Canceling my service was a huge hassle, both times. Both times I complained, and both times it went nowhere. I've been quite happy with Verizon for years. (My grad school actually had a Verizon tower on the roof of the main building- best reception ever!)

If Verizon thought they were doing the best for their bottom line by telling Apple no, fine. It would have been nice to have the option, but it's not an option I would have taken anyway. While the iPhone is cool, it's so expensive that I find it hard to believe that it's going to sell as well as people keep predicting. Maybe I'm woefully behind the times, but do people really have the disposable income to drop that much money for a phone, in addition to having to pay for the monthly service?

iW00t
Jan 29, 2007, 03:54 PM
Why does Apple deserve a percentage of the user's monthly usage charges?

Is it not enough that their phone is 300% more expensive than the competition?

jhedges3
Jan 29, 2007, 03:54 PM
Why is Verizon evil!

http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/05/22/78363_21NNnsaspying_1.html

Enough said.

I want no iphone on verizon! :mad:

Not enough said. Did you actually read that article?

(1) It says reports claim, “AT&T, BellSouth, and Verizon turned over customer information.” So why is it again that Verizon, in particular, is evil?

(2) It says, “DoJ also subpoenaed 34 ISPs, including Verizon and major Internet search and security firms in that case. According to the documents obtained by InformationWeek, some of those companies, including Verizon, objected to the requests, citing the sensitivity of the data being requested.” So is Verizon evil because it objected to DoJ requests or was it something else that bothered you about them?

(3) Furthermore, is a company evil to you if it lawfully provides information used in serious and legitimate terror investigations?

(4) What does all of this have to do with you not wanting an iPhone? Are you really that concerned that if Verizon had the iPhone they’d be passing on your information to some twisted government agency?

TuckBodi
Jan 29, 2007, 04:10 PM
$200 for T-Mobile. I checked but I don't think I'll switch. T-Mobile plans & service is far better than Cingular's...But the iPhone & it's features are temping.

I'm in a quandary...as an old AT&T Wireless user I absolutely hated them. Bad reception and even poorer customer service. Like this person I'm now with T-Mobile here in Denver and love them. Great reception all the way into the mountains and even when I travel out of state. The little times I've had to call customer service they've been night & day compared to AT&T Wireless. Even with that said, my contract is up and I'm thinking of switching to Cingular and an iPhone.

What other T-Mobile users are out there and are you thinking of switching?

Are there any Denver Cingular users out there and what do you think of their coverage and service these days?

Last comment...I have to believe HSDPA is just around the corner for the iPhone. Everything on the phone just crys out for it and its gotta just be a matter of Cingular building out the network. Here's hoping a firmware upgrade will get you on it!

donlphi
Jan 29, 2007, 04:15 PM
Why does Apple deserve a percentage of the user's monthly usage charges?

Is it not enough that their phone is 300% more expensive than the competition?

I think the reason WHY is because they are being exclusive with Cingular, therefore limiting the amount of money they COULD make. We also don't know how much of the phone cost goes to cingular and how much goes to Apple. LET'S NOT FORGET UNIVERSAL and the MICROSOFT ZUNE EFFECT.

Either way, who cares...

It's an iPOD: (cheapest one cost $150 w/o video)

It plays video: (iPOD video cost around $250)

It makes phone calls: (sure phones with a camera could be free with most plans, but for a decent one will run you at least $100)

It syncs with iCal, Address Book, and Mail on my mac (priceless)

It browses the internet like no other phone... slow, but formatted correctly. (priceless).

Cutting Edge Technology and UI (also priceless)

Data Speed/Service aside, the $600 is a reasonable price. Sure I'd like to see a few more features for that price (maybe a free cleaning service for my apartment for a month and a subscription to sports illustrated), but overall, I think MOST people will be pleased with the bang they get for their buck.:D

Anyway... Apple has to get some of that money back for all of the years of developing the iPHONE. Several people on that design team need to get paid.

iW00t
Jan 29, 2007, 04:20 PM
I think the reason WHY is because they are being exclusive with Cingular, therefore limiting the amount of money they COULD make. We also don't know how much of the phone cost goes to cingular and how much goes to Apple. LET'S NOT FORGET UNIVERSAL and the MICROSOFT ZUNE EFFECT.

Either way, who cares...

It's an iPOD: (cheapest one cost $150 w/o video)

It plays video: (iPOD video cost around $250)

It makes phone calls: (sure phones with a camera could be free with most plans, but for a decent one will run you at least $100)

It syncs with iCal, Address Book, and Mail on my mac (priceless)

It browses the internet like no other phone... slow, but formatted correctly. (priceless).

Cutting Edge Technology and UI (also priceless)

Data Speed/Service aside, the $600 is a reasonable price. Sure I'd like to see a few more features for that price (maybe a free cleaning service for my apartment for a month and a subscription to sports illustrated), but overall, I think MOST people will be pleased with the bang they get for their buck.:D

Anyway... Apple has to get some of that money back for all of the years of developing the iPHONE. Several people on that design team need to get paid.

Yes. For $600 it comes with 3G and UTMS too.... oh wait.

I can also sync and load in my third party applications.... oh wait on that too...

I will happily leave T-mobile and sign up with Cingular. Big oh wait.

Because tons of IT departments are running Macs and hence sync their employees with iCal. That oh wait line is starting to get old.

More caveats than pros. We shall see how it'd ultimately pan out. I can see lots of people buying it to use as a video player, but as a smart phone it is kinda.... as interesting as a Windows XP user with "Calculator".

Stella
Jan 29, 2007, 04:22 PM
To get this thing sold it needs the support of cellular network providers. If they wouldn't take the iPhone it wouldn't sell as well as otherwise... even if you are paying full price for a phone that is still locked down to one provider.

Suurreee... the iPhone is the only phone that can manage correctly formatted web pages.... :\

Really, some people are saying the iPod contains functionality that no other phones does ( and that really does get irrirating ).

I think the reason WHY is because they are being exclusive with Cingular, therefore limiting the amount of money they COULD make. We also don't know how much of the phone cost goes to cingular and how much goes to Apple. LET'S NOT FORGET UNIVERSAL and the MICROSOFT ZUNE EFFECT.

Either way, who cares...

It's an iPOD: (cheapest one cost $150 w/o video)

It plays video: (iPOD video cost around $250)

It makes phone calls: (sure phones with a camera could be free with most plans, but for a decent one will run you at least $100)

It syncs with iCal, Address Book, and Mail on my mac (priceless)

It browses the internet like no other phone... slow, but formatted correctly. (priceless).

Cutting Edge Technology and UI (also priceless)

Data Speed/Service aside, the $600 is a reasonable price. Sure I'd like to see a few more features for that price (maybe a free cleaning service for my apartment for a month and a subscription to sports illustrated), but overall, I think MOST people will be pleased with the bang they get for their buck.:D

Anyway... Apple has to get some of that money back for all of the years of developing the iPHONE. Several people on that design team need to get paid.

yg17
Jan 29, 2007, 04:29 PM
I'm in a quandary...as an old AT&T Wireless user I absolutely hated them. Bad reception and even poorer customer service. Like this person I'm now with T-Mobile here in Denver and love them. Great reception all the way into the mountains and even when I travel out of state. The little times I've had to call customer service they've been night & day compared to AT&T Wireless. Even with that said, my contract is up and I'm thinking of switching to Cingular and an iPhone.

What other T-Mobile users are out there and are you thinking of switching?

Are there any Denver Cingular users out there and what do you think of their coverage and service these days?

Last comment...I have to believe HSDPA is just around the corner for the iPhone. Everything on the phone just crys out for it and its gotta just be a matter of Cingular building out the network. Here's hoping a firmware upgrade will get you on it!

I'm a T-Mobile user....been with them for a month after my 2 year contract with Suckgular was up. They're excellent, and I wouldn't go back to Cingular if they gave me the phone and service for free.

If you didn't like ATT Wireless, then you'll find nothing to like about Cingular. They're one in the same. I had ATT Wireless pre-merger and they weren't that bad. I switched to Cingular shortly after the merger when they were letting ATT customers switch to Cingular and break the ATT contract with no fees (we wanted new phones and to add a line as well, that's why we switched) and it was just horrible for those 2 years. If you didn't like ATT then, then you won't like ATT now.

Granted, I have no idea what Cingular is like in Denver. I imagine they suck more than a drunk Paris Hilton, but who knows, it does vary by region. But one thing doesn't vary by region, and that's customer service. Having talked to both Cingular and T-Mo customer service, I agree, the difference is like night and day. With Cingular, I felt like an extra few dollars in some CEO's income, with T-Mobile, I feel like a valued customer.

iW00t
Jan 29, 2007, 04:32 PM
To get this thing sold it needs the support of cellular network providers. If they wouldn't take the iPhone it wouldn't sell as well as otherwise... even if you are paying full price for a phone that is still locked down to one provider.

Suurreee... the iPhone is the only phone that can manage correctly formatted web pages.... :\

Really, some people are saying the iPod contains functionality that no other phones does ( and that really does get irrirating ).

I am no fan of Verizon but some of Apple's terms sounds kinda unreasonable to me.

It is just too bad that Verizon doesn't see Apple's latest brainchild as anything more than another turd from Nokia or Motorola. It may be cool, but at least some corporate PHBs in Verizon have their heads screwed on correctly to maintain perspective.

Restrictions on stores it can be sold in? 2 year contract but no subsidies on pricing? Monthly percentage of user's subscription fees? On top of that the phone costs $600? Exclusive or not we all know how well it is going to sell (read: no better than another smartphone, but it sure is not going to steal a lot of sales from the average-phone-using crowd).

Rodimus Prime
Jan 29, 2007, 04:45 PM
I am no fan of Verizon but some of Apple's terms sounds kinda unreasonable to me.

It is just too bad that Verizon doesn't see Apple's latest brainchild as anything more than another turd from Nokia or Motorola. It may be cool, but at least some corporate PHBs in Verizon have their heads screwed on correctly to maintain perspective.

Restrictions on stores it can be sold in? 2 year contract but no subsidies on pricing? Monthly percentage of user's subscription fees? On top of that the phone costs $600? Exclusive or not we all know how well it is going to sell (read: no better than another smartphone, but it sure is not going to steal a lot of sales from the average-phone-using crowd).

Oh I think Verizon would of seen it going well. Most people know Apple has following of people who love them. In this following you have a small number who would buy anything apple including something dog poo painted white and pay a pretty heavy amount for it and call it one of the greatest things on earth. Yes that is an extreme end but Verizon would of know that. They would of known people would break contracts to switch over to them just because of the iPhone.

But Verizon also saw this deal apple was offering as bad for them and rightfully so called it unreliable and turned it done rightfully so. I agree with Verizon on turning down those terms because I sure as hell would of if I was Verizon.

clevin
Jan 29, 2007, 04:46 PM
Verizon isn't stupid, iphone isn't necessarily going to sell good anyway. If apple want iPhone to succeed, establish its own network. lol

iW00t
Jan 29, 2007, 04:49 PM
Oh I think Verizon would of seen it going well. Most people know Apple has following of people who love them. In this following you have a small number who would buy anything apple including something dog poo painted white and pay a pretty heavy amount for it and call it one of the greatest things on earth. Yes that is an extreme end but Verizon would of know that. They would of known people would break contracts to switch over to them just because of the iPhone.

But Verizon also saw this deal apple was offering as bad for them and rightfully so called it unreliable and turned it done rightfully so. I agree with Verizon on turning down those terms because I sure as hell would of if I was Verizon.

It cuts both ways.

There are people who buy things marketoids tell them are "cool", and there are also people who see things that everyone is using as uncool.

Well there are a lot of Apple fans alright, but only 3% are fan enough to actually walk the walk and buy a Mac. See the contradiction?

With low commitment and investment items like the iPod, hell $300 is just throw away money. With a $600 phone that requires a 2 year contract for a $100 monthly phone plan with a not so stellar service provider? Get out!

Raidersmojo
Jan 29, 2007, 04:58 PM
cingular is about to get a bunch of new customers thanks to the iphone..I already know my dad has said when it comes out we will be switching to cingular and getting two iphones (one for him and myself :D )

my mom is also planning on getting one and switching to cingular...oh and her husband will be doing that too

a bunch of my friends are contemplating the switch as well

the phone is to cool, its the best piece of technology out there right now. 5 years ahead of its time and some people are saying its a bad move? we won't know until a few months after the phone is released

but we should start a tally of how many people (just on this forum maybe a poll?) who are going to switch to get this device

Rodimus Prime
Jan 29, 2007, 05:00 PM
It cuts both ways.

There are people who buy things marketoids tell them are "cool", and there are also people who see things that everyone is using as uncool.

Well there are a lot of Apple fans alright, but only 3% are fan enough to actually walk the walk and buy a Mac. See the contradiction?

With low commitment and investment items like the iPod, hell $300 is just throw away money. With a $600 phone that requires a 2 year contract for a $100 monthly phone plan with a not so stellar service provider? Get out!

True but I just started it from the extreme end and from there it a good deal. and it also playing off the iPod fame.

I am personally waiting for some good laugh when people start posting here complaining on the fact they have to buy a new phone because they broke there iPhone. I expect to see quite post on people breaking there iPhone.

I personally do not think the iPhone is worth it. it a 600 dollar phone that can easily break and I do not see it lasting 2 years in my ownership. I am pretty rough on my phones. That and it just not something I would want it has a lot of flaws in it.

Cingular I have no problem with. I switch over to them about 7 months ago and have not had a single issue. When I did deal with costumer service they where pretty good. (only had to deal with them once) and the call quality for me has been great. Just not going to get an iPhone. I like my cheaper tougher, lighter and smaller flip phone a lot more. It also function better as a phone which is my primary use for a cell phone. The iPhone has to give up some of that funtionallity to allow for everything else. But to each there own.

GotPro
Jan 29, 2007, 05:31 PM
Why would Apple NOT want it's iPhone in as many distribution channels as possible?

Sounds a little TOO MUCH like 1984, if you ask me... :mad:

AppleIntelRock
Jan 29, 2007, 05:38 PM
Don't get me wrong, I HATE verizon, but I would have rather switched to verizon then cingular. they're both horrid, and at least w/ verizon we would have gotten 3G/EV-DO service. Knowing have restrictive verizon is with phone software, I'm really not surprised.

jettredmont
Jan 29, 2007, 06:00 PM
We'll see how smart cingular is within 5 years when apple decides to start their own cell phone companies and have at their fingertips the phone numbers and contact data for all of cingular customers.

As though starting a cell phone network in a saturated landscape like the US is even within the realm of possibility. Unless Apple starts on a separate range of frequencies that is suddenly freed for civilian use in the US, it is 100% guaranteed that any Apple network which was built from scratch would have crappy coverage everywhere. Same reason why Cingular coverage sucks in some areas where Verizon coverage is stellar: it's not because Cingular doesn't want to sell plans in Northern California; the "good" frequencies are just not available for their use!

yg17
Jan 29, 2007, 06:10 PM
cingular is about to get a bunch of new customers thanks to the iphone..I already know my dad has said when it comes out we will be switching to cingular and getting two iphones (one for him and myself :D )

my mom is also planning on getting one and switching to cingular...oh and her husband will be doing that too

a bunch of my friends are contemplating the switch as well

the phone is to cool, its the best piece of technology out there right now. 5 years ahead of its time and some people are saying its a bad move? we won't know until a few months after the phone is released

but we should start a tally of how many people (just on this forum maybe a poll?) who are going to switch to get this device

Every single member on this forum could switch, and Cingular wouldn't notice they're there, and the other provider wouldn't notice they're gone.

And Cingular isn't going to get a bunch of new customers. Well, it depends on what you define a bunch as. Maybe to us, a million is a lot, but when Cingular has nearly 60 million customers, the million isn't a lot. It's not even a drop in the bucket....and I doubt Cingular will even get a million new customers.

I said it before in this thread and I'll say it again. The iPhone will not make or break any carrier. We've had a ton of phones come out in their past, that for their time, were just as revolutionary as the iPhone...Blackberries, Treos, Sidekicks, hell, even the crappy old RAZR was revolutionary a couple years ago (well, maybe not revolutionary, but definitely the "cool" phone to have...like the iPhone). The Sidekick was (still is) exclusive to T-Mobile and the RAZR was exclusive to cingular for awhile, and while I'm not sure about the Blackberry or Treo, they might have also been exclusive. And right now, there aren't any carriers struggling because they weren't the first to have a phone, and there aren't any carriers doing ridiculously well because they were the first to have a phone. And considering that the iPhone is twice as much as any of those phones I listed above, it's not going to change anything.

And the iPhone vs. iPod comparison is (no pun intended) Apples vs. Oranges. The iPod doesn't require you to sign a 2 year contract stating that you'll ONLY use iPods or pay a hefty termination fee. The iPod doesn't come along with a monthly data bill. The iPod had hardly any competition when it came out. Unlike cell phones, not everyone and their dog already had an MP3 player when the iPod came out.

manhattanboy
Jan 29, 2007, 06:19 PM
I am glad that apple choose Cingular over verizon.
I for one will not be buying an iPhone, and will let cingular's crappy network get overflooded with people trying to use their iPhones while my verizon one stays relatively fast. Hell, with ATT, I have had the "network is too busy" error message when I used to use their network in the past for just phone service let alone data.

Part of what makes apple great is simplicity and if any idiot can do it than all the idiots will be browsing the web and using data. BT-DUNning and data x-fer over verizon is still relatively not for the grandma's and grandpa's of the world and weeds out some congestion. That's a good thing.

AppleIntelRock
Jan 29, 2007, 07:15 PM
Every single member on this forum could switch, and Cingular wouldn't notice they're there, and the other provider wouldn't notice they're gone.

And Cingular isn't going to get a bunch of new customers. Well, it depends on what you define a bunch as. Maybe to us, a million is a lot, but when Cingular has nearly 60 million customers, the million isn't a lot. It's not even a drop in the bucket....and I doubt Cingular will even get a million new customers.



If you honestly think if a carrier lost one million customers they woulnd't notice/care you've got another thing coming. ONE million customers is 1/60 of their ENTIRE customer base (on Cingular's end, even more with any other carrier). That's an extremely significant number and would represent a very sizable loss of revenue.

areyouwishing
Jan 29, 2007, 07:28 PM
I think apple knew that verizon (at the time) was going to have 3g sooner than all the others in the US... so they decided to ask verizon... again, this is 2.5 years ago before the merger of cingular and at&t (i think)... so they were also looking at the biggest US carrier at the time.

Apple is now screwing Verizon the best it can because they snubbed apple. So apple is basically saying, we are exclusive with Cingular for a few years, GSM is god's gift to the world, and did we mention multi-touch?

AppleIntelRock
Jan 29, 2007, 08:00 PM
I think apple knew that verizon (at the time) was going to have 3g sooner than all the others in the US... so they decided to ask verizon... again, this is 2.5 years ago before the merger of cingular and at&t (i think)... so they were also looking at the biggest US carrier at the time.

Apple is now screwing Verizon the best it can because they snubbed apple. So apple is basically saying, we are exclusive with Cingular for a few years, GSM is god's gift to the world, and did we mention multi-touch?

Sprint is pioneering high-speed cellular data STOP And has a very large 3.5G network already STOP

barnaby
Jan 29, 2007, 09:40 PM
well apple needed Cingular or Verizon to really have a chance with the iPhone. The other carrier are just 2 small. And they will do just find with out the iphone but if apple wanted to sell an real amount of the iPhones they needed those 2 companies. Based on this I do not think you will see the iPhone ever really spreading outside of cingular because apple demands are pretty damn high.

The % sells maybe. But the ones that I think are over board are the outlets it can be sold, and apple being the only one allowed to decide on repairs and replacement. That 2nd one is a sure fire way to making customers pissed off because they are going to take there broken phone to cellular store they got them from before they would contact apple. I mean it will just piss people off telling them they need to contact apple. And apple would be a lot slower o a turn around time the the stores which can be mins compared ot what from apple more than likely would be days. Something people never can stand.

I can understand the limiting of the subsidizing but apple made a lot of demands that are well over the top and I think it was the correct thing to do by Verizon turning them down.

Oh yeah and pretending I was cingular yeah I would of turned apple down limiting where it could be sold and for the repair and replacement one. both those a great way to piss off customers and risk losing them. Even more so since it appears that insurance will be even less of an option is apple holding all the cards.

But then again those demands are typical apple. if cingular turn them down apple would of had to really back down on there demands. Hell I would not be surprised if cingular force them to because apple needs the cell companies a hell of a lot more than they need apple.

I've always found apple's service on hardware to be really good. That's more than I can say for either of the two carrier's I've been with. I refuse to purchase a phone from a carrier anymore because of their service. I don't see apple not wanting the carrier to do service on their hardware to be a bad thing.

robbyx
Jan 29, 2007, 11:52 PM
I do not know a SINGLE Cingular customer who likes or even loves them.

Well, love is a strong word, but I like Cingular very much. Their customer service is great. They're friendly, return calls, and don't seem to outsource. At least I haven't been unlucky enough to get some tech in India whom I can't understand. My experiences with Verizon have, by comparison, been a nightmare. I think they are by far the most incompetent telco out there. Cingular may not be the BMW of cell carriers, but they blow Verizon away.

areyouwishing
Jan 30, 2007, 12:30 AM
Sprint is pioneering high-speed cellular data STOP And has a very large 3.5G network already STOP

I'm guessing you were granted demi-god status for more reasons than your quick to judge cell phone carrier abilities, STOP.

Yes, sprint has the largest 3g coverage in the US. But if you read my entire post, I also mention that little fact of subscriber base and actual cell coverage. to quote myself "... so they were also looking at the biggest US carrier at the time."

What is the killer app of the iPhone?... THE PHONE CALLS! Hence verizon, and cingular... the only 2 Apple could partner with at the moment. STOP.

zenntench_oni
Jan 30, 2007, 03:55 AM
hmm i can see hows the flood phone lines when people calls cingular (i mean at&t) customer service about the iphone and upgrade their phone. .. its like that time when i waited 12:01am just for upgrade my phone to a sidekick 3 that day. hmm

and i can see when everybody goes to apple with there iphone and going to the genius bar or going to cingular asking somewhat dumb questions while they have internet at there homes and lazy to search it out.

and flooding the calls on cingular's customer service lines. . lol not to be mean though.

:p

gothiquegirrl
Jan 30, 2007, 04:02 AM
Well, love is a strong word, but I like Cingular very much. Their customer service is great. They're friendly, return calls, and don't seem to outsource. At least I haven't been unlucky enough to get some tech in India whom I can't understand....

The only Carrier that is worth a ***** where I am is cingular. After the hurricanes a couple of years ago.. the only cell service we had here was cingular. They set up trucks with temporary towers all over Lousy-anna and Southeast Texas.. They also set up places so people could buy those pre-paid phones because NO OTHER carrier gave a crap to come down here and help people have some conneciton to the outside world. SO.. I'm happy with cingular.. even if they are crap.. the fact that I was able to call out of this area in a disaster.. well ..that made an impression.

Ang

wnurse
Jan 30, 2007, 06:25 AM
As though starting a cell phone network in a saturated landscape like the US is even within the realm of possibility. Unless Apple starts on a separate range of frequencies that is suddenly freed for civilian use in the US, it is 100% guaranteed that any Apple network which was built from scratch would have crappy coverage everywhere. Same reason why Cingular coverage sucks in some areas where Verizon coverage is stellar: it's not because Cingular doesn't want to sell plans in Northern California; the "good" frequencies are just not available for their use!


Ever heard of the term MVNO?. Look it up in google.
BTW, it means mobile virtual network operator

Stella
Jan 30, 2007, 08:38 AM
Yep, those terms from Apple are so draconian. I'm really not surprised they told Apple where they could stick them!

The carriers should be able to subsidise how they like - also, its better for the consumer.

I'm no doubt the iPhone will sell, but I'm in no doubt that they'll be some very disappointed people when they find out how limiting the device is. No way is this device for corporate - it just doesn't have what it needs to fill that hole. This is a consumer device only.

Very, very expensive ( and limited functionality-wise ) phone.
I am no fan of Verizon but some of Apple's terms sounds kinda unreasonable to me.


Restrictions on stores it can be sold in? 2 year contract but no subsidies on pricing? Monthly percentage of user's subscription fees? On top of that the phone costs $600? Exclusive or not we all know how well it is going to sell (read: no better than another smartphone, but it sure is not going to steal a lot of sales from the average-phone-using crowd).

jettredmont
Jan 30, 2007, 10:17 AM
Every single member on this forum could switch, and Cingular wouldn't notice they're there, and the other provider wouldn't notice they're gone.

And Cingular isn't going to get a bunch of new customers. Well, it depends on what you define a bunch as. Maybe to us, a million is a lot, but when Cingular has nearly 60 million customers, the million isn't a lot. It's not even a drop in the bucket....and I doubt Cingular will even get a million new customers.


First, any decent company would notice a 1.7% uptick in their customer volume. Not saying Cingular is a decent company, but tone down the hyperbole. They'd notice 1 million new customers, and Verizon would notice the loss.

That having been said, I really doubt there will be 1 million new Cingular customers as well.

My analysis is that there are "hard" and "soft" reasons someone is with their current cellular provider.

HARD:
* Service reliability (in the area where they live, the area where they work, and the area in between at minimum).
* Feature availability (3G networks if needed, bluetooth file transfers if needed, etc)
* [Time-limited] Lock-in from contract

SEMI-SOFT:
* Price of service plans
* Available phone features
* [-] Inability to get "new customer" discount when contract ends

SOFT:
* Previous experiences with companies
* [-] Cool new phones exclusive to other providers

Even the coolest new phone has a hard time going against the "hard" reasons above. While some areas are blessed with decent coverage from multiple cellular companies, I've never lived in one. Everywhere I've lived has had a "good coverage" provider and a slew of "you won't be able to make a call half of the time" providers. There's no sense getting a cool phone if you can't make a call on it. Likewise, if you can't afford to use the cool features on your phone then they're as good as not there; plan pricing will easily trump features when those features use the network (as cell providers wish all cool features did).

My prediction is that Cingular will see an uptick in new subscribers when the iPhone comes out, but not long-term significant. How significant in the short term depends on how well it prices plans to use the iPhone; long-term gains will require network improvements on both the speed and coverage sides. That having been said, the history of the cell provider industry in the past ten years is that such exclusives provide a nice boost, and without any exclusives the provider loses market share in the long term.

Ever heard of the term MVNO?. Look it up in google.
BTW, it means mobile virtual network operator

Yeah. You buy coverage from the established companies and market it to customers. While it is a possibility, MVNOs will always (assuming no massive regulation of the industry) lose to the primary networks. While Apple could make itself another "me too" in the industry going that route, they couldn't shape the industry because they would always be beholden to the actual infrastructure owners.

IMHO, not a likely scenario for Apple to pursue. It is possible, but not likely. And becoming an MVNO would not, by any stretch of the imagination, have the effect on Cingular the original poster claimed (stealing all of Cingular's customers because they have the call list and can annoy said customers with dinner-time calls until they relent and bow down to their new cell phone overlords).

Rodimus Prime
Jan 30, 2007, 11:17 AM
First, any decent company would notice a 1.7% uptick in their customer volume. Not saying Cingular is a decent company, but tone down the hyperbole. They'd notice 1 million new customers, and Verizon would notice the loss.

That having been said, I really doubt there will be 1 million new Cingular customers as well.

My analysis is that there are "hard" and "soft" reasons someone is with their current cellular provider.

HARD:
* Service reliability (in the area where they live, the area where they work, and the area in between at minimum).
* Feature availability (3G networks if needed, bluetooth file transfers if needed, etc)
* [Time-limited] Lock-in from contract

SEMI-SOFT:
* Price of service plans
* Available phone features
* [-] Inability to get "new customer" discount when contract ends

SOFT:
* Previous experiences with companies
* [-] Cool new phones exclusive to other providers

Even the coolest new phone has a hard time going against the "hard" reasons above. While some areas are blessed with decent coverage from multiple cellular companies, I've never lived in one. Everywhere I've lived has had a "good coverage" provider and a slew of "you won't be able to make a call half of the time" providers. There's no sense getting a cool phone if you can't make a call on it. Likewise, if you can't afford to use the cool features on your phone then they're as good as not there; plan pricing will easily trump features when those features use the network (as cell providers wish all cool features did).

My prediction is that Cingular will see an uptick in new subscribers when the iPhone comes out, but not long-term significant. How significant in the short term depends on how well it prices plans to use the iPhone; long-term gains will require network improvements on both the speed and coverage sides. That having been said, the history of the cell provider industry in the past ten years is that such exclusives provide a nice boost, and without any exclusives the provider loses market share in the long term.

yeah I think that going to be the case. I have a feeling that a lot of people are going to switch over to cingular and really regret it. A lot of those people are on this board. They reason they are switching is for the soft reasons you listed. Always a bad bad idea if they pay no attention to the ones above it because after the newest factor wears off (2-3 weeks) the regret will set in and now they are going to be dealing with a network that could easily be really bad where they live and the coverage will be poor (which I think is the number one reason to figure out which provider to go with. Always choose one that network covers well where you are).

The reason I switch over from Verizon to Sprint was Verizon network coverage was crap where I spend about 1/2 my year and then 2 years later I switch to cingular because cingular coverage is better where I spend most of my time. Spint was get at my university but it coverage on my drive home was poor and there where more dead spots. Also Cingular mobile to mobile was a huge plus to me because most of my friends are cingular.

The phones that cingular has compared to the others plays no part in who I will choose. I pick my phone after I choose who I am going to go with and for that that is cingular.

wnurse
Jan 30, 2007, 12:23 PM
My quandry is simple; Verizon clearly sucks, they have horrible customer service and lock down everything so they can make money off of it. Unfortunately, in my area, the only cell phone company with reception worth using is Verizon; Cingular's "Least Dropped Calls" argument does not hold up here. TMobile is gaining on Verizon in reliability, but I don't really want to use them for personal reasons (I worked for a TMobile store once, didn't like their practices). The thing is, I'd love an iPhone, but in this area, I'd definately be sacrificing reliability.

Disclaimer: I want to clarify before a TMobile employee attacks; I worked for a TMobile authorized retailer and it was their practices I did not like, not TMobile as a whole. As a result, I would just prefer to not work for them. Strangely enough, they are now a Sprint authorized retailer.

Yeah. You buy coverage from the established companies and market it to customers. While it is a possibility, MVNOs will always (assuming no massive regulation of the industry) lose to the primary networks. While Apple could make itself another "me too" in the industry going that route, they couldn't shape the industry because they would always be beholden to the actual infrastructure owners.

IMHO, not a likely scenario for Apple to pursue. It is possible, but not likely. And becoming an MVNO would not, by any stretch of the imagination, have the effect on Cingular the original poster claimed (stealing all of Cingular's customers because they have the call list and can annoy said customers with dinner-time calls until they relent and bow down to their new cell phone overlords).


Well, you don't know what is likely. Even if it is not likely, why bet it is not?. Even if apple were to annoy cingular customers with dinner calls and half of them tell them to go to hell, the point is that they have a list to work with. If that was trivial, every company would have a list and no one would pay for it. Are you aware that companies pay a lot of money for customer lists?. This is free to apple. Whether they take advantage or not is irrelevant, the point is, they get tangible priceless property for free. Now, it may just be that cingular agreement with apple forbades them from poaching their customers but that is difficult to enforce... more likely would be an agreement with cingular not to enter the cell market for X number of years, otherwise, cingular is just selling its soul just to get a cool phone of the month. After the iphone, there will be other cool phones.. remember the razr?. When it came out, everyone and their cat wanted one. All the teeny boppers had one and even adults. (i did not and am sure there are many that did not but you get the point, the phones were hot). If I ran Cingular, you could never get me to sell my soul for a cool toy of the week.. i am sorry. Consumer taste are too ficke for apple to gurantee sales of this phone for any significant period of time. My customer list would be 100 times more valuable than any new cool toy.

GregA
Jan 30, 2007, 02:49 PM
Yep, those terms from Apple are so draconian. I'm really not surprised they told Apple where they could stick them!

The carriers should be able to subsidise how they like - also, its better for the consumer. I don't think they're draconian. Apple has a unique way of designing and selling and it's part of the reality distortion field (rdf). Every advertiser does their own version of an rdf... Apple just does it well. I'm sure it's in Apple's best interests (for now), and that should be good for the network provider too.

A bad move by Apple would be to make one deal and then force a change to one that wasn't good for the network provider (I'm sure they'll change their deals & methods over time!).

While some areas are blessed with decent coverage from multiple cellular companies, I've never lived in one. Everywhere I've lived has had a "good coverage" provider and a slew of "you won't be able to make a call half of the time" providers. There's no sense getting a cool phone if you can't make a call on it. Likewise, if you can't afford to use the cool features on your phone then they're as good as not there; plan pricing will easily trump features when those features use the network (as cell providers wish all cool features did).Agreed on both counts - coverage and plan costs. Atleast when you're at home or work, the costs for data should be nothing.

If Apple allowed you to seamlessly switch to VoIP when at home or work (still charging something, and even giving Cingular a cut?) you could be guaranteed of great coverage at home and work and, probably, quite adequate coverage elsewhere on most networks.

SpinThis!
Jan 30, 2007, 04:04 PM
For all those bashing Verizon or Cingular, factor this in... according to Consumer Reports (the only non-biased source on this board), Verizon is generally tops all-around in service/support but only by a couple percentage points (which aren't meaningful in their tests). So whatever bed Apple decided to get into, they knew it wasn't going to be very pretty for whatever carrier they chose.

Why would Apple NOT want it's iPhone in as many distribution channels as possible?
Because Apple is trying to position this product as more of a computer than a phone. And nobody knows Apple products better than Apple itself. Apple tried the sales/support things years ago when they tried to put Macs in Best Buy and other retail stores—the sales people were generally clueless about Macs in general and Apple ended up pulling the plug on the whole ordeal and ended up going with their own stores. (The best move they could have made.) Verizon/Cingular/etc has a lot of phones—you think every employee who works at a Cellphone kiosk knows the ins/outs, how it syncs with iTunes, using widgets, etc? I doubt it. If your iPod breaks, you generally don't go back to the store for support—you call Apple. I'd imagine most of the support requests for the phone aren't going to revolve around Cingular; they're going to involve the software aspects of the phone.

truz
Jan 30, 2007, 04:08 PM
I think the apple move to cingular is great. This gives cingular the chance to gain more clients and improve there network coverage and high speed internet on your phone.

I switched from nextel/sprint in Oct 2006, signed up with cingular and there service has been great so far.

kirk26
Jan 30, 2007, 08:38 PM
This should have more positive votes than negative. Verizon is known to cripple their phones. If Verizon got this then there wouldn't be any wifi and limited bluetooth. Also, iPhone, welcome to two years. My Pocket PC is way beyond you.

TuckBodi
Jan 31, 2007, 12:42 AM
For all those bashing Verizon or Cingular, factor this in... according to Consumer Reports (the only non-biased source on this board), Verizon is generally tops all-around in service/support but only by a couple percentage points (which aren't meaningful in their tests).

A year ago a friend of mine went with Verizon because of this Consumer Reports source. Every time I talk to him he drops 2 or 3 times a call and the poor guy has to put up with me making fun of him (because he insisted I was making a mistake going with T-Mobile).

AppleIntelRock
Jan 31, 2007, 12:44 AM
For all those bashing Verizon or Cingular, factor this in... according to Consumer Reports (the only non-biased source on this board), Verizon is generally tops all-around in service/support but only by a couple percentage points (which aren't meaningful in their tests). So whatever bed Apple decided to get into, they knew it wasn't going to be very pretty for whatever carrier they chose.


Being reliable and being open/pro-consumer are two VERY different things.

SpinThis!
Jan 31, 2007, 09:32 AM
This should have more positive votes than negative. Verizon is known to cripple their phones.
That's what I absolutely hate about Verizon... they cripple their phones (not to mention they're anti-union but let's not go down that road atm) so they can nickel/dime you for other things. The article doesn't mention it but I'm sure Verizon would have wanted VCast integrated in some way with the iTunes Store—of course sharing profits with Apple. The iTunes store is Apple's baby—God forbid let's not taint it with Verizon. Verizon's slogan should be.. (How) Can we screw you now?!

mike2q
Jan 31, 2007, 11:56 PM
Maybe the contract in only applicable to the first iPhone and not the entire line of things to follow.
Also, I've bounced around from carier to carier and have settled on Verizon for solid coverage. I don't use Vcast or any other entertainment features. I just want my phone to work where ever I am. One user posted that "I don't need my phone to work in the back of a cave". I don't understand that comment. I don't "need" my phone to work in a lot of places but its nice when it does. Isn't that the point of a cellular telephone is that you can use it anywhere? I've heard variouse comments that dispute which company has the "largest network". I've heard Cingular has it and I've heard that Cingular is refering to number of subscribers it has when it touts those numbers. Emperical evidence for me is that Verizon works more places without droped calles than any of the providors I've tested. Also, I havn't seen too many coverage complaints on this forum about Verizon. I see complaints about the geek features (ie bluetooth music, ringtone, wallpaper transfers) but not too many on the coverage most people actually buy a phone for in the first place. I even see comments that say that "Even though Cingulars coverage isn't that great I'm still switching to the iPhone."
Maybe Apple is on to something here. People are willing to sacrifice their phones main use for a built in iPod. I love my iPod, my Mac and my PDA, it would be nice to have them all together but I'm not willing to to sacrifice coverage for features.

Obviously coverage is very relitive to where you live and even more so, where you use your phone. There is always going to be one apartment complex where carrier "A" doesn't work. That said, I'd like to know what coverage experience others on this forum have had.

Also, I'm tired of the iPhone GSM CDMA issue. Isn't the iPhone pushing their internet browsing and isn't CDMA currently better suited to the data task? Then there is the "world standard" but according to this article from apple insider (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1770) The US instalation base for iPods is around 70%. That means the whole rest of the world combined only comes up with about 30% of Apples iPod business. Thats still a lot when combind but considering that the US is still the large majority of their iPod income I don't see it as a huge issue. If it is that profitable they could just make a dual mode phone as a few manufactures already have at a cost well below the iPhones cost. Also, do that many of the posters on this board regualry travel abroad? I would wager that of the one ones who do regualrly that most are on business trips. As has been stated, the iPhone will not replace the blackberry or other such device that the majority of business users needing PDA's would want.

Rodimus Prime
Feb 1, 2007, 12:06 AM
Just sit back and wait for people to complain who are giving up good coverage to go over to cingular in an area where they are weak coverage for the iPhone. Apple is having it cult following switching over to cingular. I would just expect in oh July August to see complains up about poor coverage and them regretting switching.

As for the features I have to say I used to not think much of blue tooth until I had a phone that has it and now I think it is on of the greatest things. I like using my blue tooth head set with my phone. It makes doing other things a hell of a lot easier and just talking on the phone easier and I am really only using it around the house. I am honestly surprised at Sprint and Verizon both slow move over to getting blue tooth on there phones because one of the best thing about blue tooth is the wireless head sets.

AppleWine
Feb 4, 2007, 11:34 PM
It's a shame that it didn't work out with Verizon. Although I know Cingular covers most of the US, they absolutely suck in NYC and the NorthEast. My friends havecingular and are constantly borrowing my phone because they don't get reception. Grrrrrr

Saxguy87
Jul 7, 2007, 04:03 AM
...wonder if Verizon regrets that decision?

Apple really is tying the hands of the provider with their demands. It makes sense to meet Apple's demands but, seriously, they were asking a lot!

Apple's demands were fair and justifiable. Apple doesn't wanna be some freshly reaped hardware phone manufacturer to join the long list of sadly pwned phone companies. I say Apple's doing the right thing by sticking it to the man and rewriting cellular history. Now, any phone manufacturer can feel hope in fighting for their company's betterment. Now, Apple is using ATT, and not the other way around. Apple says, "WE'VE GOT THE PHONE! Just give us your services and we'll be cool." As opposed to Motorola, "We've got the RAZR, that's all we know about it, could you help us sell this thing?" Total pwnage.:cool:

HasanDaddy
Jul 7, 2007, 06:22 AM
good for apple - im glad they didnt push it with verizon

The reason why so many cellphones suck is because companies like vzw and sprint kill all the good features and suck the life outta good phones

Ultimately companies like lg and samsung start making crappy phones that constrict to company demand

Im glad apple left vzw and im proud to be with att

uNext
Jul 8, 2007, 07:19 PM
Been a cingular customer for 4 years
now that att took over they service is down the drain..
Shame the iPhone is so limited in bad network...


Dont get me wrong love the iphone but i hate att always have nothing but bad experience...

AppleIntelRock
Jul 8, 2007, 09:29 PM
Verizon= Rock solid network, wonderful voice quality, fast 3G EVDO service... 1 or 2 dropped calls- A YEAR, horrible customer service, only care about money, terrible billing problems- hence the class-action law-suit. $Expensive$

Sprint= Good network- not the greatest, fast data speed (3G EVDO) good customer service, fair pricing. All around good network

T-Mobile= WONDERFUL customer service (look at JD pwr) sub-par network, sloww data speeds, small phone selection- insanely good rates- esp w/ wifi phones (voip calling)

AT&T/Cingular= Poor network, dropped calls, slow data (for the most part), bad customer service, high rates... why would ANYONE pick them? (besides iPhone customers)

All'n'all I think Verizon has the best network... with T-Mobile having the best customer service. Were it now for the iFone™ I'd be using a Treo 755p on Sprint's network.

ITASOR
Jul 8, 2007, 10:48 PM
The reason why so many cellphones suck is because companies like vzw and sprint kill all the good features and suck the life outta good phones


Everyone says this, but then look at the iPhone. You can't use OBEX or even upload a ring tone to it...

And those features weren't just disabled, they don't even exist. :(

Verizon is getting better about crippling phones. Most of them now have some sort of OBEX file transfer enabled, even if it's only for pictures.