Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard), iLife '07, and iWork '07 in March?

[sparky672]

I haven't even looked up thesoftware that it's the icon for... I just like the look of it.

It's the icon for an open source program called Celestia (http://www.shatters.net/celestia/).

http://forums.macrumors.com/image.php?u=4461&dateline=1165698035

Celestia Site (http://www.shatters.net/celestia/)

[shawnce]

i'm talking about it not being virtual...the whole system running as 32bit systems use ram now...64bit would mean that all apps are accessing ram (then virtual memory when ram is full or "sleeping") and so basically what you're saying is that leopard will NOT be 64bit? it will only allow apps to be ran virtually as 64bit?

Sorry you misunderstand how operating systems work (don't take this the wrong way but your post is nonsensical)... you should read up on how virtual memory is used in modern operating systems.

Anyway... Leopard is a true 64 bit operating system... which means it supports running application with 64 bit address spaces (again virtual address space).

[shawnce]

What is resolution independance?:confused:

See a prior post of mine http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=3170636#post3170636 as well as the following...

Resolution Independence (http://developer.apple.com/leopard/overview/)
The old assumption that displays are 72dpi has been rendered obsolete by advances in display technology. Macs now ship with displays that sport native resolutions of 100dpi or better. Furthermore, the number of pixels per inch will continue to increase dramatically over the next few years. This will make displays crisper and smoother, but it also means that interfaces that are pixel-based will shrink to the point of being unusable. The solution is to remove the 72dpi assumption that has been the norm. In Leopard, the system, including the Carbon and Cocoa frameworks, will be able to draw user interface elements using a scale factor. This will let the user interface maintain the same physical size while gaining resolution and crispness from high dpi displays.

The introduction of resolution independence may mean that there is work that you’ll need to do in order to make your application look as good as possible. For modern Cocoa and Carbon applications, most of the work will center around raster-based resources. For older applications that use QuickDraw, more work will be required to replace QuickDraw-based calls with Quartz ones.

Also see... Resolution Independent UI Release Notes for Mac OS X v10.4 (http://developer.apple.com/releasenotes/GraphicsImaging/RN-ResolutionIndependentUI/index.html)

[casik]

die!

vista is a piece of crap that was stolen from apple...I'm a switcher and I'm never going back to windows

I dunno about that... if vista was stolen from apple... it would have been a good OS hahahaha

[Toe]

It's the icon for an open source program called Celestia (http://www.shatters.net/celestia/).
Yeah, I've looked it up now, and... wow! That's some cool software. Totally worth the price.

[sexyfoolxx]

"True 64-bit" as you describe it is worthless to the end user, and the developer. Unlike Windows, OS X using universal binaries, and libraries that are now compiled for both 32 and 64 bit... you can compile a binary to run the best it can on any of the 4 supported architectures. Add on top of that the fact that having 32-bit processes and 64-bit processes running at the same time don't interfere with each other... and there is no point on phasing out 32-bit support in the OS anytime in the next 6-7 years.

i never said it was worth while or worthless...i was explaining what 64bit was about to an end user..i also never said that 32 and 64 would interfere with each other...and i also did say that we wouldn't see true 64bit for a while now...anything else you'd like to add?

[sexyfoolxx]

Sorry you misunderstand how operating systems work (don't take this the wrong way but your post is nonsensical)... you should read up on how virtual memory is used in modern operating systems.

Anyway... Leopard is a true 64 bit operating system... which means it supports running application with 64 bit address spaces (again virtual address space).

so are you telling me that when you refer to virtual memory you're not referring to swap files?

also i think you're misunderstanding me...i only said leopard was a step closer to everything being 64bit because it will allow the user to run 64bit applications...otherwise being true 64bit has nothing to do with leopard.. i was talking about when 32bit is no longer available, when we have systems that only use 64bit apps, where the whole os is only 64bit (not allowing 64/32 to be ran side by side)

[MacsAttack]

when in march are we tlaking about? late or just anytime in march is highly unlikley
:apple: :apple: :apple:

If it were to be March, then it would probably be March 29th...

Or maybe Apple would wait until April 1st :apple:

[Kelmon]

I don't know where ThinkSecret is getting its information from but I don't believe this for a moment. As I and other have said before, due to the fact that we haven't seen a feature-complete version of the OS outside of Apple's labs yet (unless Steve was either not telling the truth or over-blowing what "secret features" actually entailed) this either implies that Leopard isn't anywhere near close to being ready or that Apple is going to be positively suicidal by releasing an OS that hasn't been widely tested yet.

My bet remains a release in June and I'd much prefer that at this moment than a rushed release in March.

[tartaruga]

After wading through the previous posts, I have to say I agree with those who just want a stable release. Whether it's March or June is less important. I wouldn't be surprised to see an announcement in March with a release in April or May.

My only problem is that I'm still on an iBook G3, and I can't afford a Macbook.

[aafuss1]

I'll probably get Leopard and iLife/iWork '07-before I buy Vista.

[syriana]

I hope they package iLife with the OS, they go together, that is what is shown to bring the switchers so they should come together.

Bring it on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:cool:

switchers have to BUY a new mac, so they will have leopard & iLife 07 in the box

[Egomaniac]

If the "secret" of leopard doesn't require developers testing...could it possibly be just an UI change? Like the ever rumoured "Illuminous" GUI.

Unlikely. Changing the UI used by current applications very much would require testing -- interface components aren't going to be exactly the same sizes, baselines might shift a bit, and so forth -- not to mention the fact that developers would want the chance to adjust their color choices, fonts, and so forth to better fit the new theme. Making major changes to the default appearance of Aqua without warning wouldn't be a good move on Apple's part.

They could of course introduce another theme alongside the existing ones, using it for their own apps without disturbing current applications. That's really the only scenario that would make sense as a surprise new feature, and while it's certainly possible I think people are getting ahead of themselves. Keep in mind that brushed metal was such a new theme -- and consider that you might be getting excited over what basically amounts to a new brushed metal.

One important thing to note: leaked screenshots of Leopard have demonstrated how many of Aqua's interface elements, such as the close / minimize / zoom buttons on windows, which did not properly support resolution independence in Tiger now do in Leopard. The fact that Apple is taking the time to make Aqua elements support a Leopard-only feature strongly suggests that Aqua will continue to look much the same in Leopard.

[matticus008]

One important thing to note: leaked screenshots of Leopard have demonstrated how many of Aqua's interface elements, such as the close / minimize / zoom buttons on windows, which did not properly support resolution independence in Tiger now do in Leopard. The fact that Apple is taking the time to make Aqua elements support a Leopard-only feature strongly suggests that Aqua will continue to look much the same in Leopard.
On the contrary, the Leopard builds so far have barely touched any of the artwork. The window glyphs as far as I'm aware are the only ones that have been replaced, and likely just for testing purposes.

Further, there is almost no outside testing required, especially given that developers are working on implementing resolution independence (Apple requests that developers get it done by 2008). Do XP apps need to be updated for Vista? Did 2000 ones for XP? Does every KDE theme need to be tested against thousands of applications? The answer to all of these things is "no." Unless you're expecting some radical new approach to the way we interact with computers, there's no reason that there needs to be widespread public testing six months in advance. All the big apps will be exempt or tested internally and notified. The small ones don't have access to developer software anyway, so it doesn't matter. The relatively narrow middle ground band is the only affected group, and the likelihood of problems itself is quite small. If anything, all the apps not ready for resolution independence will stay Aqua and everything upgraded will go with the new style--RXScrollbar instead of NSScrollbar and so forth.

[k2k koos]

After wading through the previous posts, I have to say I agree with those who just want a stable release. Whether it's March or June is less important. I wouldn't be surprised to see an announcement in March with a release in April or May.

My only problem is that I'm still on an iBook G3, and I can't afford a Macbook.

Being on an iBook G3, is not a real problem is it? It just shows the longlivity of Apple's designs, eventhough it's 'old' in computer terms, it is not yet obsolete :-)

[Egomaniac]

On the contrary, the Leopard builds so far have barely touched any of the artwork. The window glyphs as far as I'm aware are the only ones that have been replaced, and likely just for testing purposes.

Many of the images have been updated -- unless I misremember, radio buttons, check boxes, and other components did not scale cleanly in Tiger. They do in Leopard.

Further, there is almost no outside testing required, especially given that developers are working on implementing resolution independence (Apple requests that developers get it done by 2008). Do XP apps need to be updated for Vista? Did 2000 ones for XP? Does every KDE theme need to be tested against thousands of applications? The answer to all of these things is "no."

Sure, they could drop a major UI overhaul on everyone without giving developers the chance to test it. I didn't say that it was impossible, merely that it would be a bad move on Apple's part, and I stand by that.

And yes, applications did need to be tested against Vista. Hence the huge, lengthy beta process. Sure, most of the problems were unrelated to the visual changes, but I'm sure more than a few issues were discovered. I know at least one product at my company required updates for specifically for Aero.

I'm not in any way suggesting that most applications wouldn't work just fine with a changed theme. But there are going to be (as there always are) a handful of exceptions, which is why these developer seeds are important. I maintain that if Apple were to spring a significant UI change on everyone without giving developers the chance to test against it first, it would be crappy policy. Not impossible, but crappy.

[Egomaniac]

In what way? Other than visually speaking (because the UI glyphs and widgets are not themselves ready), my impression was that resolution independence seems finished. I'm curious; what's broken?

The underlying framework is done, but I still see lots of issues with Apple's own software. Mostly minor things -- the middle part of a component being shifted up a pixel relative to the left and right ends, a blank pixel between two images which are supposed to be adjacent, and (can't remember if this is in the current seed or the one prior to it) at least one major application which is still running in magnified mode. For the non-developers out there, imagine implementing resolution independence by taking a picture of your screen, scaling it up using nearest-neighbor interpolation, and calling it resolution independent. That's magnified mode, and at least one major Apple application was still running that way when I last checked.

There are a few major issues as well; I've had Safari get horribly confused about the current scale factor and draw images at different scale than text, or perform layout using a scale of 1.0 but drawing using my specified scale, causing all of the content to be clipped horribly. Doesn't happen all the time, but it's happened more than once and it renders the browser basically unusable.

None of these are worrisome for, say, a May or June release. But March strikes me as unrealistic.

[matticus008]

Many of the images have been updated -- unless I misremember, radio buttons, check boxes, and other components did not scale cleanly in Tiger. They do in Leopard.
I recall those working, along with text. But it has been a while, and if you are right, it's still no big deal to replace checkboxes and radios. Last I checked, all the animated parts still didn't work right (zooming rather than scaling), and a healthy number of icons, buttons, and other odds and ends didn't work.
Sure, they could drop a major UI overhaul on everyone without giving developers the chance to test it.
Right, but they're not going to spring it on us the night of the launch party--it'll show up in the final few builds when developers are doing the cleanup phase (which includes minor UI issues). They still have plenty of time to test it, even if it's coming in late March (which I, like you, highly doubt). More to the point though, they don't need advance testing if Apple intends to roll the new UI out with renamed resources (rather than NSresources), meaning that apps won't be affected until developers choose to flip the switch.

Sure, most of the problems were unrelated to the visual changes, but I'm sure more than a few issues were discovered.
Effectively zero were a result of the visual changes. I have yet to see a single report of a single application which suddenly bugged out on Vista as a result of the new visual style (not due to the API changes).
I know at least one product at my company required updates for specifically for Aero.
In what way? For Aero glass, perhaps you had some outdated calls which reverted the app to Aero basic, but that's not really a bug. The only thing that bothers me about the Aero basic is that it knocks back the entire system instead of just the affected application. Other than that, it's essentially the same setup as I would implement, were I Apple (incompatible applications appear as Aqua applications without impacting the rest of the system's appearance).
But there are going to be (as there always are) a handful of exceptions, which is why these developer seeds are important. I maintain that if Apple were to spring a significant UI change on everyone without giving developers the chance to test against it first, it would be crappy policy. Not impossible, but crappy.
I agree in principle, but the reality is that the developers who have access to developer seeds either have the resources to fix any glitches in a matter of days (and therefore don't need the UI until the final few seeds) or they aren't going to change their schedule because of it anyway (and therefore don't care when the beta is seeded). There's no sense in waiting for developers whose applications are used by 1-2% of the user base to correct a minor bug. This is particularly true if the new UI has an amnesty phase-in like most other Apple transitions.

I've done some work on this in the past. I know how fast fixes come when they're motivated and how slow they come when the priorities are elsewhere. I also know that the problem rate is remarkably small (I've watched near flawless rollouts) and only happens where some programmer did something they shouldn't have as a quick hack. The reality is that no matter how long they delay, some small app somewhere is going to have a problem. As long as it doesn't affect a large number of users, it's not going to be a real issue.

[Chupa Chupa]

I call BS. End of March is highly unrealistic based on the fact no rumors of an RC have even been leaked much less a GM. Apple would need at least 4-6 weeks to press, package, and ship enough copies for launch and pre-order fulfilment.

It's almost the middle of Feb. Apple gives reporters, etc, a week heads up on Apple events. No invites yet, so the earliest an Apple event could happen is the 19th IF Apple sent out invites on Monday. That would give Apple enough time to press and ship Leopard IF if was complete. But its not complete. There is no GM yet. It's close, but no cigar. 10.4.9 isn't even out yet. So the reality of Leopard in March I think is nill. Maybe we'll get a release date in March, but no product.

[shawnce]

so are you telling me that when you refer to virtual memory you're not referring to swap files? No I am not refering to swap files.

Applications on modern operating system live in a virutal address space... one that the OS is free to map as needed to physical memory. This is how multiple application share the pool of physical memory attached to the system (also how the file cache is managed on Mac OS X, etc.). Having 64 bit addressing does not change the fundamental need for virtual addressing nor does virtual addressing only imply swap files.

Yes virtual memory systems can use swap files as needed to deal with over demand situations but that is just one aspect of what virtual memory systems do.

also i think you're misunderstanding me...i only said leopard was a step closer to everything being 64bit because it will allow the user to run 64bit applications...otherwise being true 64bit has nothing to do with leopard.. i was talking about when 32bit is no longer available, when we have systems that only use 64bit apps, where the whole os is only 64bit (not allowing 64/32 to be ran side by side) Again what the heck is "true 64 bit" or "full 64 bit" ... it is an arbitrary and generally unimportant line that you have drawn.

Leopard is a 64 bit operating system that also allows 32 bit application to run... going 64 bit doesn't make sense for many classes of applications and so Leopard (and likely Mac OS X for the next few major releases) do not force you to covert your application to 64 bit.

Will Mac OS X some day drop support for running 32 bit applications? Likely but we are talking far in the reasonable distant future and well after advances in hardware eclipse some of the negatives of 64 bit applications and the pool of 32 bit only hardware has been replaced with 64 bit capable hardware. The main reason they would drop support is to save on code size (don't have to ship 32 bit libraries/frameworks).

[BenRoethig]

I find March extremely unlikely. Steve Jobs isn't the type for a quiet launch of an operating system. He would have taken a minute or two out of they keynote to give a date.

[BRLawyer]

I agree. Email templates - Wow!

Really disheartened with Apple recently. Hopefully there will be something simply awesome in Leopard that they have held back until the last moment.

I really really want to see an interface refresh, I'm not saying overhaul, that brings OS X up to Vista's eye-candy - I agree with the Wired Mac guy, OS X looks slightly dated in comparison.

I don't care if it's right, but half the attraction of an Apple Mac for me was its attractive design, both on screen and off. I don't want a £399 Dell running Vista making my Mac look less attractive - So c'mon Apple, satisfy my vanity.

Bring OS X "up to" Vista's candy? Is this a joke? Please, if you go as far enough as to think that Vista is more advanced than OS X in any sense (including design), please buy a copy from MS...there is no use in participating in a Mac forum, man.

OS X is miles ahead of Vista in design, and does not equate that stupid mix of copycat transparency with clutter...Vista plain sucks, period.

[orangermac]

Maybe Apple is thinking of pushing even further the "full package" selling point that Steve made at WWDC. Vista has some DVD video burning capabilities built in, if I understand correctly. This may push Apple to bundle iLife with Leopard. Maybe they'd do the same for iWork (AppleWorks used to be included on some machines).

It'd be a lost revenue stream BUT with all the comparisons that will be made between Leopard and Vista, it'd make Leopard that much more impressive of a package....

[Telp]

Maybe Apple is thinking of pushing even further the "full package" selling point that Steve made at WWDC. Vista has some DVD video burning capabilities built in, if I understand correctly. This may push Apple to bundle iLife with Leopard. Maybe they'd do the same for iWork (AppleWorks used to be included on some machines).

It'd be a lost revenue stream BUT with all the comparisons that will be made between Leopard and Vista, it'd make Leopard that much more impressive of a package....

As much as id love that, i dont think thats how Apple thinks. They don't care that some features that mac and MS both share, MS is giving away free in Vista. ilife wills till come on the machines but chances are (and i hope im wrong) they wont bundle them together. However, they may do it for this major point seeing as this is when a lot of PC users are switching over to Mac, making it look a lot better, however, then they are just buying a new computer and not leopard seperatly, so no i dont see it happening.

[sexyfoolxx]

No I am not refering to swap files.

Applications on modern operating system live in a virutal address space... one that the OS is free to map as needed to physical memory. This is how multiple application share the pool of physical memory attached to the system (also how the file cache is managed on Mac OS X, etc.). Having 64 bit addressing does not change the fundamental need for virtual addressing nor does virtual addressing only imply swap files.

Yes virtual memory systems can use swap files as needed to deal with over demand situations but that is just one aspect of what virtual memory systems do.

Again what the heck is "true 64 bit" or "full 64 bit" ... it is an arbitrary and generally unimportant line that you have drawn.

Leopard is a 64 bit operating system that also allows 32 bit application to run... going 64 bit doesn't make sense for many classes of applications and so Leopard (and likely Mac OS X for the next few major releases) do not force you to covert your application to 64 bit.

Will Mac OS X some day drop support for running 32 bit applications? Likely but we are talking far in the reasonable distant future and well after advances in hardware eclipse some of the negatives of 64 bit applications and the pool of 32 bit only hardware has been replaced with 64 bit capable hardware. The main reason they would drop support is to save on code size (don't have to ship 32 bit libraries/frameworks).

thanks for clearing up the virtual memory!!! and my "true 64bit" is exactly what you state, that 32 will be dropped EVENTUALLY...as i stated before we're a long ways off...but was i wrong in stating that when 32bit is no longer, that we'd need more than 4gigs of ram for 64bit programs to access...otherwise my mentioning of leopard (i will say it again) has NOTHING to do with me talking about 64bit, except that we're one step closer to being true 64bit...i never said anything about 32bit or 64bit interfering (you didn't mention this, somebody else did)..i also never said that it made sense for apps to be 64bit, if you'll re-read my posts, i clearly stated that we don't have need for even 1 or 2 apps to be 64bit yet
thanks again for clearing up the virtual memory

[Telp]

yes thanks for clearing that up Shawnce :)

[scottlinux]

thanks for clearing up the virtual memory!!! and my "true 64bit" is exactly what you state, that 32 will be dropped EVENTUALLY...as i stated before we're a long ways off...

Yes this is true. I don't know why others are having such a hard time with this. Computers have gone 8bit -> 16bit -> 32bit (currently) -> 64bit (is coming/here!)

This is the logical progression of computer technology. XP and Vista have a 64bit version, though 64bit Windows drivers are problematic for many.

Linux also comes in a 64bit distro flavor. And it has a 32bit compatibility layer built in to execute 32bit code. So I assume that 10.5 will be similar. Fully 64bit, but able to run 32bit code/apps.

[Thunderbird]

I am (or am going to be) a switcher. So once Leopard comes out, I will be getting an iMac. However, as impatient as I am to make the switch and get my hands on a shiny new mac, I am still willing to wait until the work on Leopard is done in a (hopefully) thorough and well-tested manner.

Whether it's March, April, WWDC in June, August, October or even MWSF in Jan 08 ;) ; doesn't matter, as long as the job gets done right. (of course Apple doesn't want to look as foolish as MS did with it's excruciatingly long overdue release of Vista, previous codename 'Longwait').

My guess: WWDC in June.

[mozmac]

I wish I had a new Mac to run it on. I bet they will drop G3 support with this OS and finally make my 6 year old iBook G3 500 MHz obsolete. Once they come out with a new MacBook Pro that blows my socks off, I will buy.

[mattcube64]

Well, now that I apply for the student discount, I'll be buying Leopard on day one, no matter when that day actually comes...

Hopefully they show off new Mac Pros with the Leopard release. I'm thinking if the new Mac Pro blows me away, I'll get one. If not, I'll stick with a 20" iMac and save me some money.

[chubad]

Maybe Apple is thinking of pushing even further the "full package" selling point that Steve made at WWDC. Vista has some DVD video burning capabilities built in, if I understand correctly. This may push Apple to bundle iLife with Leopard. Maybe they'd do the same for iWork (AppleWorks used to be included on some machines).

It'd be a lost revenue stream BUT with all the comparisons that will be made between Leopard and Vista, it'd make Leopard that much more impressive of a package....

Unless they bundle them and raise the price for Leopard.
I would like it if they were bundled into the OS and Leopard was $169.00 instead of $129.00. Much better than shelling out $79.00 a year for iLife.
;)

[sachamun]

Bring OS X "up to" Vista's candy? Is this a joke? Please, if you go as far enough as to think that Vista is more advanced than OS X in any sense (including design), please buy a copy from MS...there is no use in participating in a Mac forum, man.

OS X is miles ahead of Vista in design, and does not equate that stupid mix of copycat transparency with clutter...Vista plain sucks, period.

An opinion on design is a subjective thing, so I think you should leave people alone and let them express themselves. If you have an opinion, fine, but you can't say that others are not welcome here just because they don't automatically subscribe to the notion that 'vista sucks'.

[chubad]

Also let's not forget that Think Secret said "AS EARLY AS March" Talk about waffling!:rolleyes:
If it comes out in March or anytime after they can (and will) say "as we predicted." :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Peace]

An opinion on design is a subjective thing, so I think you should leave people alone and let them express themselves. If you have an opinion, fine, but you can't say that others are not welcome here just because they don't automatically subscribe to the notion that 'vista sucks'.

I agree with that.I'm a Mac person but It's my opinion that the Aero Glass effect is much better looking than Aqua's "eye candy"

[chubad]

I agree with that.I'm a Mac person but It's my opinion that the Aero Glass effect is much better looking than Aqua's "eye candy"

The bottom line is that no matter what interface design is chosen some people are not going to like it.
I like the Aqua look and while a small change or two is fine I would rather they improved things under the hood rather than fretting about eye candy. Believe it or not alot of people do not want or like their computers to change. Especially in a production environment. There are quite a few design pros I know who do not upgrade anything unless they absolutely have to. The reason is that they use computers as a tool rather than a hobby or diversion. They do great work and get paid and have minimal down time for learning upgrades.
I am very happy Apple is continuing to spend more time making the OS run and function transparently. Ultimately computers should be far more intuitive to use. The less you have to deal with the machine the more you can devote to doing more compelling creative work.

[bathysphere]

Unless they bundle them and raise the price for Leopard.
I would like it if they were bundled into the OS and Leopard was $169.00 instead of $129.00. Much better than shelling out $79.00 a year for iLife.
;)

i think they should put ilife back into osx without raising the price, like it was a couple years ago (although to be fair that was before garageband and without idvd, so maybe a $10-$20 jump in price would even things out).

[Nukemkb]

part of me wants to IMMEDIATELY jump on Leopard when it comes out, and my conservative part says "wait!"

[steve_hill4]

I am (or am going to be) a switcher. So once Leopard comes out, I will be getting an iMac. However, as impatient as I am to make the switch and get my hands on a shiny new mac, I am still willing to wait until the work on Leopard is done in a (hopefully) thorough and well-tested manner.

Whether it's March, April, WWDC in June, August, October or even MWSF in Jan 08 ;) ; doesn't matter, as long as the job gets done right. (of course Apple doesn't want to look as foolish as MS did with it's excruciatingly long overdue release of Vista, previous codename 'Longwait').


Glad you're making the switch, but Vista's codename was "Longhaul". ;)

[chubad]

i think they should put ilife back into osx without raising the price, like it was a couple years ago (although to be fair that was before garageband and without idvd, so maybe a $10-$20 jump in price would even things out).

I would like that as well! But with Apples recent history I doubt that.

[Telp]

part of me wants to IMMEDIATELY jump on Leopard when it comes out, and my conservative part says "wait!"

I think we all want to immediatly jump on Leopard.

[billyboy]

I think we all want to immediatly jump on Leopard.
In answer to your question, I will take my time getting Leopard. Basically I upgraded from Jaguar to Panther because I had to. But Panther is plenty good enough, so I will have the luxury of time to see just what is better in Leopard to justify an upgrade. Bearing in mind my PB is 4 years old, there will probably be graphics improvements in Leopard that I cant take advantage of...

[Telp]

In answer to your question, I will take my time getting Leopard. Basically I upgraded from Jaguar to Panther because I had to. But Panther is plenty good enough, so I will have the luxury of time to see just what is better in Leopard to justify an upgrade. Bearing in mind my PB is 4 years old, there will probably be graphics improvements in Leopard that I cant take advantage of...

True, and its good to wait, but that doesnt mean you dont want it...just that it economically and traditionally makes sence to not.

[Telp]

I wish I had a new Mac to run it on. I bet they will drop G3 support with this OS and finally make my 6 year old iBook G3 500 MHz obsolete. Once they come out with a new MacBook Pro that blows my socks off, I will buy.

They are required to support you until your computer is 8 years old i think. However, i do believe it wise to upgrade to a newer computer soon, unless you dont need to, just an opionion

[maverick808]

They are required to support you until your computer is 8 years old i think. However, i do believe it wise to upgrade to a newer computer soon, unless you dont need to, just an opionion

They aren't required to support your machine for any length of time at all. They could even stop supporting MacBooks today if they wanted. Where did you pull 8 years from?

[TheSpaz]

I'd also like to have an OS that was built for an Intel processor (Tiger was developed for PPC, then ported to Intel).


You are wrong about that. Ever since Mac OS X was developed, Apple has been working on an Intel version along side of the PPC version but, they kept it a secret. Tiger was not ported from the PPC version! Mac OS X in general has been Intel compatible since the beginning but, only the PPC version was ever shipped until Apple announced the Intel Macs.

Does anyone have the official Apple document that states this because I actually remember Steve mentioning this from when the Intel switch was first announced.

[Telp]

They aren't required to support your machine for any length of time at all. They could even stop supporting MacBooks today if they wanted. Where did you pull 8 years from?

I'm not sure, haha i did just read that from somewhere awile ago, so yeah i dont know if it true...sory bout that.

And i think there would be a few problems if they decided to drop support for the new macbooks, so im gunna say they couldn't drop support for that now, ;)

[MacinDoc]

You are wrong about that. Ever since Mac OS X was developed, Apple has been working on an Intel version along side of the PPC version but, they kept it a secret. Tiger was not ported from the PPC version! Mac OS X in general has been Intel compatible since the beginning but, only the PPC version was ever shipped until Apple announced the Intel Macs.

Does anyone have the official Apple document that states this because I actually remember Steve mentioning this from when the Intel switch was first announced.
I don't think there was an official document about this, but SJ did mention it during his WWDC keytnote on June 6, 2005. MacWorld (http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/06/06/liveupdate/index.php) provided a partial transcript of the keynote, in which SJ said the following:
So today for the first time, I can confirm the rumors that every release of Mac OS X has been compiled for PowerPC and Intel. This has been going on for the last five years.

[MacsAttack]

You are wrong about that. Ever since Mac OS X was developed, Apple has been working on an Intel version along side of the PPC version but, they kept it a secret. Tiger was not ported from the PPC version! Mac OS X in general has been Intel compatible since the beginning but, only the PPC version was ever shipped until Apple announced the Intel Macs.

Does anyone have the official Apple document that states this because I actually remember Steve mentioning this from when the Intel switch was first announced.

You are correct - but the statment that OS X for intel has been in developemnt along-side the PPC version all these years is a little misleading. True - Apple were keeping the OS design "platform agnostic", but the Intel version had not been optimised (the PPC version gets "faster" with each release). Neither had the Intel version been so extensivly tested as the PPC one. It took Apple time to get OS X for intel ready for prime-time. They had to add Rosetta. They had to get their own apps up to speed too. They had to go from "only just works" to "Just Works!". That they did this in a remarkably short time span and with so few problems (for the average user) is a testament to just how well the team keepig the "super-secret" Intel version going did their job, and to the guys who delivered Tiger for Intel. No way was this a simple project.

One of the "hidden" reasons why I'm eager to see Leopard is that this will be the first full release for the Intel platform. Asside from the features that have been previewed, I'm looking to see some nice performance gains from optimization for the Intel-based systems Apple have released.

What will be real interesting is how fast Apple will roll on to 10.6 (hope they call it Liger :) ). MicroSoft have announced they have started work on "Vienna" - the replacement for Vista - and are targeting release for 2009

http://news.yahoo.com/s/infoworld/20070209/tc_infoworld/85937

Is that the sound of photocopiers I hear???? :apple:

[BayAreaMacFan]

I think it's a little unrealistic to expect a new UI, no matter when the release date. It'd be a pretty amazing feat to release the iPhone and a new version of OSX with a completely revamped UI within a 6 month time frame.

[steve_hill4]

I'm not sure, haha i did just read that from somewhere awile ago, so yeah i dont know if it true...sory bout that.

And i think there would be a few problems if they decided to drop support for the new macbooks, so im gunna say they couldn't drop support for that now, ;)

Well you were part right. I believe that they are obliged, (at least in the EU), to ensure parts are available for models for around 10 years, actual length unknown.

For software and OSes, there is no time limit to my knowledge, but if they dropped install options for a machine less than 5 years old on this front too, there may be too much of an uproar from consumer groups. The worst extent I have seen is with new printers and such required 10.3.9 installed, which is now almost 2 years old. The way I guess they could get around this would be to say if the machine supports 10.4, which is still available to purchase, they can upgrade to that and install the new printer. Therefore support is still there to install new hardware and software.

[steve_hill4]

One of the "hidden" reasons why I'm eager to see Leopard is that this will be the first full release for the Intel platform. Asside from the features that have been previewed, I'm looking to see some nice performance gains from optimization for the Intel-based systems Apple have released.
Yes, the first OSX that was built for Intel from the ground up. I hope to see some awesome speed gains and features and unless I see the final version and think "that's not much different from the developer, looks same as tiger and no extra killer features", Leopard will probably be installed within the first week of release.
What will be real interesting is how fast Apple will roll on to 10.6 (hope they call it Liger :) ). MicroSoft have announced they have started work on "Vienna" - the replacement for Vista - and are targeting release for 2009

http://news.yahoo.com/s/infoworld/20070209/tc_infoworld/85937

Is that the sound of photocopiers I hear???? :apple:

Liger again? Since they haven't trademarked it yet, (unless I missed that), but they have done so with the names Lynx and Cougar, so we are more likely going to see those first. And those photocopiers, I hear them in overdrive in Redmond, but wait, what's that I hear? Photocopiers in Cupertino? Must be copying more features from Microsoft and Linux for 10.6 to blow us away with as brand new concepts.:)

[pake]

I don't know where but I think I saw Steve mentioning the name for 10.6 It was lynx, another great cat.

I really believe that Leopard will be released in june (WWDC), where apple can preview the new features. I don't know about ilife, but I'll be expecting it a little sooner, perhaps.

[Peace]

I don't know where but I think I saw Steve mentioning the name for 10.6 It was lynx, another great cat.

I really believe that Leopard will be released in june (WWDC), where apple can preview the new features. I don't know about ilife, but I'll be expecting it a little sooner, perhaps.

I may be wrong but to my knowledge OS X GM has never been released at any WWDC.They have been previewed with developers getting early copies to make sure their apps run on the next version.This is what happened in 2006,2005,2004 and 2003.Leopard was shown ( with secret parts missing ) to the development community last year and promised by "Spring" 2007.Unless Apple is really behind on development Leopard will be out before WWDC2007.

[BBC B 32k]

as i recall 10.6 is to be named Kodkod. not sure where i heard this poss. whilst having lunch with Steve.

10.7 is to be Lynx - Spanish Lynx to be exact in an effort to be inclusive of the USA's mixed population.

[MacsRgr8]

I don't know where but I think I saw Steve mentioning the name for 10.6 It was lynx, another great cat.


Nice to know that the "king" has not yet been used.... Lion :cool:

[Mgkwho]

If TS is right, AppleTV won't ship until March. But if Gizmodo is right, AppleTV ships on February 27th.

I hope the beatles thing comes out in February, otherwise March is going to be jam-packed.

-=|Mgkwho

[GregA]

I think it's a little unrealistic to expect a new UI, no matter when the release date. It'd be a pretty amazing feat to release the iPhone and a new version of OSX with a completely revamped UI within a 6 month time frame.Apple's a big company, there are many teams. And it's 2 (or more?) years of working on a revamped UI (edit: IF they have one) and 3 years of working on an iPhone. Just because they are releasing at similar times doesn't make it harder... in fact, the iPhone may link to Leopard features like resolution independence (and maybe dashcode?), or top secret features (groupware iCal?)

[Quillz]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

ThinkSecret reports (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0702leopardilife.html) that Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) development is "wrapping up faster than many at Apple even anticipated" and that the newest version of Mac OS X could be expected as soon as the end of March.

The rumor site also expects that Apple will launch the new versions of iLife '07 and iWork '07 alongside Leopard. They claim that both iLife and iWork were delayed due to the addition of some Leopard-specific features to the productivity suites.

Apple last stated (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/17/mac-os-10-5-leopard-in-spring-2007-and-ilife-soon/) that Leopard would still ship in spring and implied that the iLife suite would be updated soon.
Hmm... While I would love to see Leopard released in March, keep in mind that spring begins in March, and lasts until June, so it's quite possible it may not be released until WWDC '07.

[phillipjfry]

Is it even remotely possible that they want to keep these "top secret features" top secret that they would not allow even developers to see them? Maybe they are seeding the parts of leopard they want developers to test and leaving everything else to Apple specific developers? Just tryin to be optimistic about this March release date. :) :apple:

[Telp]

Is it even remotely possible that they want to keep these "top secret features" top secret that they would not allow even developers to see them? Maybe they are seeding the parts of leopard they want developers to test and leaving everything else to Apple specific developers? Just tryin to be optimistic about this March release date. :) :apple:

haha nice name....futurama? and yes i believe it is possible, but dont get your hopes up, but dont let them sag too low ;) :apple: :apple: :apple:

[4np]

One of them is assuredly ZFS -- I suppose I can talk about this since it has been so thoroughly leaked -- but that doesn't work at all right now either. The hooks are obviously there, you can attempt to format a volume as ZFS, but after scores of attempts I have never managed to create a working ZFS volume. In the current seed it doesn't even try, it just errors out immediately.

Is time machine already working in the latest seed? Because the speculation is that time machine will just be a front-end to ZFS... So I guess that if ZFS is not working yet, time machine will probably also not be working.

Can it be that the seeds are stripped from the top secret elements? Which is the reason that some elements do not yet work (and will never work in the seeds)?

[4np]

Unless there is some "top-secret enabled" version of Leopard which has never been seeded to the developers which is far more reliable, I can't see this OS being released next month.

That's exactly what I think there is :) I think you don't get to see the top secret features in the development seeds. Apple of course knows that these feature will not be top secret anymore if they do that :)

So as I wrote above, I think that some things that are not stable or do not work properly are not going to be fixed because they are already fully functional in the leopard + secret features releases :)

[Telp]

That's exactly what I think there is :) I think you don't get to see the top secret features in the development seeds. Apple of course knows that these feature will not be top secret anymore if they do that :)

So as I wrote above, I think that some things that are not stable or do not work properly are not going to be fixed because they are already fully functional in the leopard + secret features releases :)

it makes sence. Im routing for that theory :apple: :apple: :apple:

[fastlane1588]

ok so all of this talk about leopard is starting to excite me. I got my mbp the day they changed to the c2d chips so I could run leopard in full 64bit mode. having some free time tonight I was messing around on the apple sight drooling over all of the stuff I cant have I noticed that the iphone interface is all black. when you make a call it comes up with the black box w/ functions like speaker, add numbers, keypad etc. I was wondering if maybe this was somthing that may end up in leopard. I know how apple likes to have all of their products some what the same (ie, screens match the mbps and mac pros) and I know that one of the features in the iphone was waiting on leopard. so what if the black interface on the iphone is going to be the same as on leopard? Just a thought.

[EagerDragon]

Sorry you misunderstand how operating systems work (don't take this the wrong way but your post is nonsensical)... you should read up on how virtual memory is used in modern operating systems.

Anyway... Leopard is a true 64 bit operating system... which means it supports running application with 64 bit address spaces (again virtual address space).
I'm I out of contact with what 64 bits means?
Yes it does means that it is able to address 64 bit addresses, but it was also my understanding that 64 bit chips also have registers that are 64 bit wide, and instructions that can work on 64 bits at a time. For example intead of performing mutliple 8 bit operations or 4 16 operations or 2 32 bits operations, it instead executes 1 single intruction able to operate on all 64 bits in that clock cycle.

Has this change and now all they do is perform on large address spaces?

If that is the case, it's not worth as much.

[maxrobertson]

I want to love vista, simply for it's looks. But I'm gonna have to give it time for the bugs to be worked out, just like Leopard.

You know, the only part of Vista that I think looks good is the window title bar blurred glass effect. Everything else is just... unrefined.

[Plumbstone]

I am in two minds about Leopard.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't time machine need its own partition to run? Kind of greedy don't you think?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am reasonably together, I back up pretty regulaly and keep pretty good track of what goes on on my computer. When I delete something I want it gone, not copied onto some space hungry partition with everycopy of every document I've ever created...

Spaces however, that's a different story....

Oh and I have 100% confirmation that 10.6 is simply ging to be called "*****"

[gusapple]

Wow, I have been too optimistic for too long. To think that Leopard could come out at MacWorld made me feel like an idiot. Then I thought that it would come out on February 20., and now late March? I'm just a dreamer I guess.

:apple: :apple: :apple: :apple: :apple: :apple: :apple: :apple: :apple: :apple:

[Telp]

Wow, I have been too optimistic for too long. To think that Leopard could come out at MacWorld made me feel like an idiot. Then I thought that it would come out on February 20., and now late March? I'm just a dreamer I guess.


yeah well with all the rumors going around, its only natural :apple: :apple: :apple:

[sachamun]

ok so all of this talk about leopard is starting to excite me. I got my mbp the day they changed to the c2d chips so I could run leopard in full 64bit mode. having some free time tonight I was messing around on the apple sight drooling over all of the stuff I cant have I noticed that the iphone interface is all black. when you make a call it comes up with the black box w/ functions like speaker, add numbers, keypad etc. I was wondering if maybe this was somthing that may end up in leopard. I know how apple likes to have all of their products some what the same (ie, screens match the mbps and mac pros) and I know that one of the features in the iphone was waiting on leopard. so what if the black interface on the iphone is going to be the same as on leopard? Just a thought.

Well yeah - there's quicklook (http://www.flickr.com/photos/skyzyx/330750311/). I can't imagine everything being black but I'm sure whatever they do they'll make it more than work. I'm really hoping for a more customizable GUI, but I think the reason Apple doesn't do that is because they want it to be distinguished and recognizable, which the current UI certainly is. I really like the blurred glass in Vista too, but I'd have to see exactly how it feels to use...for some reason it looks a bit weird having the window semi-transparent but it's content solid.

[akac]

why would they release dev seeds at all if there were huge chunks of code "hidden" from testers. From what I hear, there isn't much new there to test...

Because they aren't developer focused chunks. Why would a dev NEED to know about a new Finder (not saying there is one, but an example). All the things Steve has talked about are dev facing technologies. Time Machine, Spaces, and so on are things that devs can take advantage of with APIs.

Finder - no. New UI - arguable. And so on. Many things could be vastly new or improved apps - things that devs simply don't need to know.

[phillipjfry]

Because they aren't developer focused chunks. Why would a dev NEED to know about a new Finder (not saying there is one, but an example). All the things Steve has talked about are dev facing technologies. Time Machine, Spaces, and so on are things that devs can take advantage of with APIs.

Finder - no. New UI - arguable. And so on. Many things could be vastly new or improved apps - things that devs simply don't need to know.

I still stand by my theory that Apple gives public developers (NDA or not) the chunks of Leopard they want them to see, and not the whole Leopard code. Who knows? Maybe one of the public developers might photocopy some stuff and ship it off to Redmond.

[sexyfoolxx]

i can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet, but looprumors brought it to my attention a month (or two?) ago...that on march 24th (officially spring) will mark the 6th year anniversary of OS X, and also resides on a saturday (like when 10.0 was released) makes perfect sense to me.

[kimnkk]

What happened to the rumour that iLife 07 was coming out this 20th Feb?

So is it safe for me to order my Macbook, or should i wait till 20th Feb to see whats up? Unfortunately, i won't be able to wait much longer than that.

Thanks :)

[mattydodgy]

I sure hope Apple supplies a cheap upgrade to Leopard and iLife 07' :)

[goosnarrggh]

I'm I out of contact with what 64 bits means?
Yes it does means that it is able to address 64 bit addresses, but it was also my understanding that 64 bit chips also have registers that are 64 bit wide, and instructions that can work on 64 bits at a time. For example intead of performing mutliple 8 bit operations or 4 16 operations or 2 32 bits operations, it instead executes 1 single intruction able to operate on all 64 bits in that clock cycle.

Has this change and now all they do is perform on large address spaces?

If that is the case, it's not worth as much.

Yes, the x86_64 architecture also increases all general-purpose registers to 64 bits, and adds the ability to perform atomic 64-bit register-to-register (and register-to-RAM?) operations. It also adds a greater number of general-purpose registers than can be accessed by the IA32 architecture (or 32-bit mode processes running on the x86_64).

This is tied in to the common principle that sizeof(int) == sizeof(void*).

Of course, the 64-bit virtual address space and 64-bit atomic integer size are both inextricably tied to the presence of a 64-bit processor (but as has been very thoroughly pointed out, it has nothing to do with the width of the address bus which physically interfaces with the outside world), so all of us early adopters and un-modded Mac Mini users will still be working in a purely 32-bit world.

[justflie]

I still stand by my theory that Apple gives public developers (NDA or not) the chunks of Leopard they want them to see, and not the whole Leopard code.
Agreed. Apple gives the developers what they need so that they can start developing their programs (makes sense). It doesn't need to give the devs all the new features if they don't directly impact the developers' work. Why give them a BMW when an ford escort will get them to work (for now).

[Roy Hobbs]

I am in two minds about Leopard.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't time machine need its own partition to run? Kind of greedy don't you think?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am reasonably together, I back up pretty regulaly and keep pretty good track of what goes on on my computer. When I delete something I want it gone, not copied onto some space hungry partition with everycopy of every document I've ever created...

Spaces however, that's a different story....

Oh and I have 100% confirmation that 10.6 is simply ging to be called "*****"

You may do those things but the average person does not. Time Machine is a huge plus for the average person.

[shawnce]

I sure hope Apple supplies a cheap upgrade to Leopard and iLife 07' :)

The retail box for 10.5 will likely be $129 ($199 for family pack) (http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/) just like it has been for the last 3 major releases of Mac OS X.

[Nym]

Nope. A popular myth, but a myth, nonetheless. Gates tries to make it sound this way because it benefits him, but it's just not so.

Here's a good reference:

http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ui_history.html

Tell all your friends. This is one of those "say it enough and it might as well be true" pieces of the mythology I'd just as soon see go away.

Chris

Ahhhh! Excelent! I was trying to remember that website to clear some facts to the guy you quoted too! I'm glad someone remembered to clear Apple's name in that myth :)

Anyway, Leopard in June, that would be my bet. And it's all good, I love Tiger, it's not like we're anxiously waiting for the OSX release that will change our lives, 10.4 is a very very good OS.
Though I agree, it's much more stable on the PPC platform.

[JonasLondon]

I bailed as soon as they started charging for it.

What disappointment.
(... shortened/removed for sake of brevity...)

.Mac to me is basically just an overpriced version of Hotmail, or Gmail, or any other free service.

My having a .Mac e-mail address did more for Apple in terms of advertising the Mac than it ever did for me. I already had free e-mail available from my ISP, and could get any number of them for free from anyone else.

Otherwise, it's only useful feature might be synchronization or iDisk. But, like many, I have little desire to place my files on a remote server (where I have to wait to download them as I need them). And, synchronizing is not really that hard to do without .Mac. I keep 3 systems synced without paying a dime for any utility.

So, really, what they need more than an update is a price reduction. $99 is just ridiculous.

Here we go again, George Castanza's of the web come forward...

Maybe all of us who DO like the "miserable", "pathetic", "ridiculous", "rip-off" (pick one) service called .mac would happily pay an additional $9 per year to compensate disappointed users if it kept them from whining in forums.

I am aware of the fact that I can get all of this for less if I sign up to 5 different providers and spent hours on testing it all out. It now so happens that my time is worth more than that. If your situation is different, that's your life. Perhaps consider spending your time on Linux too, some buck to be saved there as well (as long as your "time" is "free"). For myself, I'll stick to Apple OS X and .mac because it works great for me.. And yes, I am aware of del.icio.us and Amazon S3 (which is great too, no doubt!), and do use them for specific things. :apple:

It never ceases to amaze me how people whine about things ("online storage" for example) just because THEY don't like it and automatically feel the need to tell the world how it is crap for everyone. :)

Security guy: "You have come to a sad realization... Allow or Deny?" :D

[psingh01]

i can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet, but looprumors brought it to my attention a month (or two?) ago...that on march 24th (officially spring) will mark the 6th year anniversary of OS X, and also resides on a saturday (like when 10.0 was released) makes perfect sense to me.

I've posted this before. I think there were also other versions of OS X (maybe 10.1?) that were released on 3/24.

[flyinmac]

I've posted this before. I think there were also other versions of OS X (maybe 10.1?) that were released on 3/24.

I'm not really sure that Apple cares much about anniversaries. After-all, they let their 30th come and go without even acknowledging it.

I can't imagine any other company ignoring such an event. Many companies have annual anniversary parties / sales. Apple let the 30th go by without a word. I guess Steve isn't married :p Or, at least not to Apple. If he was, he'd have known not to let that milestone go unacknowledged. If Apple were a woman, she'd have smacked him good for that one :D

[Peace]

I'm not really sure that Apple cares much about anniversaries. After-all, they let their 30th come and go without even acknowledging it.

I can't imagine any other company ignoring such an event. Many companies have annual anniversary parties / sales. Apple let the 30th go by without a word. I guess Steve isn't married :p Or, at least not to Apple. If he was, he'd have known not to let that milestone go unacknowledged. If Apple were a woman, she'd have smacked him good for that one :D

The 20th anniversary Mac wasn't released until almost a year after the 20th anniversary of the Mac.

http://www.apple-history.com/?page=gallery&model=anniversary&performa=off&sort=date&order=ASC

"Although officially produced in celebration of the Twentieth Anniversary of Apple, the 20th Anniversary Mac was released close to a year after the fact, in late Spring, 1997."

The 30th could very well be on it's way ;)

[sexyfoolxx]

I'm not really sure that Apple cares much about anniversaries. After-all, they let their 30th come and go without even acknowledging it.

I can't imagine any other company ignoring such an event. Many companies have annual anniversary parties / sales. Apple let the 30th go by without a word. I guess Steve isn't married :p Or, at least not to Apple. If he was, he'd have known not to let that milestone go unacknowledged. If Apple were a woman, she'd have smacked him good for that one :D

it was acknowledged at the beginning of the year with macworld and the banners, also who says you can't celebrate all year, and steve did mention that 07 was gonna be the most exciting year for apple...to me the new products seem to be the celebration

[flyinmac]

it was acknowledged at the beginning of the year with macworld and the banners, also who says you can't celebrate all year, and steve did mention that 07 was gonna be the most exciting year for apple...to me the new products seem to be the celebration

Well, I guess I could see that as an acknowledgment from a certain perspective.

But, the way it was presented simply said to me that we've been building computers for 30 years and we're going to really blow your mind with our new phone.

So, yes they acknowledged 30 years. But, not in a way that really indicated that it was an anniversary.

I guess I look at it this way:

If I tell someone in-front of my wife that we've been married for say 15 years, that doesn't carry the same weight as if I said today is our 15th anniversary.

I guarantee you that my wife would see a distinction there.

[Peace]

Well, I guess I could see that as an acknowledgment from a certain perspective.

But, the way it was presented simply said to me that we've been building computers for 30 years and we're going to really blow your mind with our new phone.

So, yes they acknowledged 30 years. But, not in a way that really indicated that it was an anniversary.

I guess I look at it this way:

If I tell someone in-front of my wife that we've been married for say 15 years, that doesn't carry the same weight as if I said today is our 15th anniversary.

I guarantee you that my wife would see a distinction there.

Did you not read my post?

[flyinmac]

Did you not read my post?

Yes. I read it.

I guess that would fall into the sorry I missed the date, but I remembered eventually. Please don't leave, I'll get flowers on the next one. I promise :D

But, seriously, it would be possible that they'd still release a 30th anniversary Mac later like they did for the 20th. But, it is strange that they would wait until the year of the anniversary is over to celebrate it.

If I remember correctly, the 30th anniversary was in April or so of 2006.

If my wife didn't slap me for forgetting the date of our anniversary, she'd definitely slap me for suddenly acknowledging it sometime the following year and still on the wrong date :o

But, yes, I agree it is possible that they might still acknowledge it with a machine later like you propose.

It would be interesting to see what such a machine might have.

[sexyfoolxx]

Yes. I read it.

I guess that would fall into the sorry I missed the date, but I remembered eventually. Please don't leave, I'll get flowers on the next one. I promise :D

But, seriously, it would be possible that they'd still release a 30th anniversary Mac later like they did for the 20th. But, it is strange that they would wait until the year of the anniversary is over to celebrate it.

If I remember correctly, the 30th anniversary was in April or so of 2006.

If my wife didn't slap me for forgetting the date of our anniversary, she'd definitely slap me for suddenly acknowledging it sometime the following year and still on the wrong date :o

But, yes, I agree it is possible that they might still acknowledge it with a machine later like you propose.

It would be interesting to see what such a machine might have.

the reason why this makes sense is because the point isn't to have it released for the 30th year, but for it to be made in the 30th year and released as the 30th ann. mac

[flyinmac]

the reason why this makes sense is because the point isn't to have it released for the 30th year, but for it to be made in the 30th year and released as the 30th ann. mac

Yes. But, wasn't the 30th year last year (2006).

As I understand it, they were founded April 1, 1976

That would make the year between April 1, 1976 and April 1, 1977 their first year.

So, if we follow that through:

April 1, 1976 to April 1, 1977 (1st year)
April 1, 1977 to April 1, 1978 (2nd year)
April 1, 1978 to April 1, 1979 (3rd year)
April 1, 1979 to April 1, 1980 (4th year)
April 1, 1980 to April 1, 1981 (5th year)
April 1, 1981 to April 1, 1982 (6th year)
April 1, 1982 to April 1, 1983 (7th year)
April 1, 1983 to April 1, 1984 (8th year)
April 1, 1984 to April 1, 1985 (9th year)
April 1, 1985 to April 1, 1986 (10th year)
April 1, 1986 to April 1, 1987 (11th year)
April 1, 1987 to April 1, 1988 (12th year)
April 1, 1988 to April 1, 1989 (13th year)
April 1, 1989 to April 1, 1990 (14th year)
April 1, 1990 to April 1, 1991 (15th year)
April 1, 1991 to April 1, 1992 (16th year)
April 1, 1992 to April 1, 1993 (17th year)
April 1, 1993 to April 1, 1994 (18th year)
April 1, 1994 to April 1, 1995 (19th year)
April 1, 1995 to April 1, 1996 (20th year)
April 1, 1996 to April 1, 1997 (21st year)
April 1, 1997 to April 1, 1998 (22nd year)
April 1, 1998 to April 1, 1999 (23rd year)
April 1, 1999 to April 1, 2000 (24th year)
April 1, 2000 to April 1, 2001 (25th year)
April 1, 2001 to April 1, 2002 (26th year)
April 1, 2002 to April 1, 2003 (27th year)
April 1, 2003 to April 1, 2004 (28th year)
April 1, 2004 to April 1, 2005 (29th year)
April 1, 2005 to April 1, 2006 (30th year)

April 1, 2006 to April 1, 2007 (31st year)


So, with that in-mind, it would appear as though they would have had to release it by April 1, 2006 in order to have released it during the 30th year.

If they release it now, it will be released during their 31st year. And, if they release it after April 1 this year, then it would be released during their 32nd year.

So, in that sense, it would be released for their 30th anniversary celebration and NOT during their 30th year.

Either way, it would be very late at this point.

But, if they wanted to release it for the 30th anniversary of the actual Macintosh, then I guess they'd still have a little while left since the Mac was first announced in 1984.

[EagerDragon]

Yes, the x86_64 architecture also increases all general-purpose registers to 64 bits, and adds the ability to perform atomic 64-bit register-to-register (and register-to-RAM?) operations. It also adds a greater number of general-purpose registers than can be accessed by the IA32 architecture (or 32-bit mode processes running on the x86_64).

This is tied in to the common principle that sizeof(int) == sizeof(void*).

Of course, the 64-bit virtual address space and 64-bit atomic integer size are both inextricably tied to the presence of a 64-bit processor (but as has been very thoroughly pointed out, it has nothing to do with the width of the address bus which physically interfaces with the outside world), so all of us early adopters and un-modded Mac Mini users will still be working in a purely 32-bit world.

Thanks for the explanation, and yes the chip set ussualy controls the number of address leads and depending on the number of leads you may only be able to address only a max of 4 gigs of memory regardless of what is possible at the x86 chip level.

Well I feel better now as there are 64 bit instructions that if used can speed up some of the operations. Most programs won't take advantage of the 64 bit instructions but some would. 0.0001 faster is better than none, LOL.

[EagerDragon]

Yes. But, wasn't the 30th year last year (2006).

As I understand it, they were founded April 1, 1976

That would make the year between April 1, 1976 and April 1, 1977 their first year.

So, if we follow that through:

April 1, 1976 to April 1, 1977 (1st year)
April 1, 1977 to April 1, 1978 (2nd year)
April 1, 1978 to April 1, 1979 (3rd year)
April 1, 1979 to April 1, 1980 (4th year)
April 1, 1980 to April 1, 1981 (5th year)
.
.
.
April 1, 2005 to April 1, 2006 (30th year)

April 1, 2006 to April 1, 2007 (31st year)


So, with that in-mind, it would appear as though they would have had to release it by April 1, 2006 in order to have released it during the 30th year.

If they release it now, it will be released during their 31st year. And, if they release it after April 1 this year, then it would be released during their 32nd year.

So, in that sense, it would be released for their 30th anniversary celebration and NOT during their 30th year.

Either way, it would be very late at this point.

But, if they wanted to release it for the 30th anniversary of the actual Macintosh, then I guess they'd still have a little while left since the Mac was first announced in 1984.

I think I read somewhere that Apples considers the first year as year zero, so year 31 would be year 30th. I guess it comes from all the programming where array subscripts start with 0 and not 1. LOL

[ready2switch]

It's a file system. A file system is essentially the software that stores files on a disk, determining where to put them, and how to find them. Macintoshes normally use HFS+ for their file systems. Mac OS X also supports a file system called UFS, but almost nobody uses it. HFS+'s origins go back to later versions of classic Mac OS, where it was an upgrade to HFS, which in turn was designed back in the late 1980s, when most Macs primarily used 400k-1.4M floppy disks.

ZFS is an extremely advanced file system that supports a lot of things HFS+ doesn't. Many of them fit into the Macintosh "Just works" philosophy. For example, you can add a disk to your computer, and configure your existing "drive" to be spread over both the disk that was already in your computer, and the new one, without reformatting or losing any files. So by adding the disk, you've just added space to your computer, and it was completely transparent. No reorganizing of your disk is necessary.

ZFS is more future proof than HFS+ which means future Macs will be able to interoperate better with current Macs. It uses 128bit values to store things like file positions and sizes. What this boils down to is that you can have more bytes in a file than there are atoms in the universe, and ZFS will handle it gracefully. Of course, you'll need a disk that big, which you'll not be able to get, because, well, you'd need a lot of atoms ;)

Older file systems generally get "upgraded" every years with a batch of hacks to support larger disk sizes than were anticipated when the file system was written. That will not be necessary with ZFS.

ZFS supports the same kinds of things you're used to in Mac OS X, such as long filenames, directories, "meta data" (icons, file type information, default application, etc), and other useful extras.

It's extremely fast, and has little or no legacy issues that would slow it down.

Does that help?

Bravo. :D

[Peace]

For all the conspiracy freaks out there.

A couple of weeks ago I posted info that Apple had a huge presence at this years NAB show in April.I found this out by going to Apple's website and looking at their list of upcoming events.Apple had the link to the NAB show there.It has been removed from the site.

If one goes to the NAB Show website and look at the exhibitors list Apple is no longer listed like it was when I visited that site a couple weeks ago,however if you dig deeper and look at the floorplan Apple is shown now with one VERY LARGE booth.It measures 160'X160'..

It makes me wonder exactly why Apple removed the NAB show listing from their upcoming events page and why the NAB removed Apple from the official list even though Apple is on the floorplan.


Something BIG is on it's way.
It's just one Mac freak's opinion but watch out for late March early April!!

[flyinmac]

I think I read somewhere that Apples considers the first year as year zero, so year 31 would be year 30th. I guess it comes from all the programming where array subscripts start with 0 and not 1. LOL

Sure... Leave it to Apple to ignore standard math and come up with 1=0, 1+1=1, and 2+1=2, and so on.

Sounds like college math all over again. 1=1 unless x+1=Apple.

I guess they like to think different :rolleyes:

Maybe I'll try that one with my wife. Tell her, I didn't forget. It's just the way I do math. You'll see. I'll get you a gift on the date that I mathematically calculate to be our anniversary. Thinking that 1=1 is so yesterday. Get over it. Slap :mad:

[4np]

If what is coming in Leopard is what I think we will be blown away and Vista will sink.

Perhaps native support virtualization / virtual machines in OS X? If they do that they'll be a whole lot quicker than Microsoft (http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/02/09/HNvistafollowup_1.html) (= 2009).

[4np]

For all the conspiracy freaks out there.

A couple of weeks ago I posted info that Apple had a huge presence at this years NAB show in April.I found this out by going to Apple's website and looking at their list of upcoming events.Apple had the link to the NAB show there.It has been removed from the site.

If one goes to the NAB Show website and look at the exhibitors list Apple is no longer listed like it was when I visited that site a couple weeks ago,however if you dig deeper and look at the floorplan Apple is shown now with one VERY LARGE booth.It measures 160'X160'..

It makes me wonder exactly why Apple removed the NAB show listing from their upcoming events page and why the NAB removed Apple from the official list even though Apple is on the floorplan.


Something BIG is on it's way.
It's just one Mac freak's opinion but watch out for late March early April!!

you're right; it's quite a huge booth (http://www.nab.org/nabshow/vr2/shows/nab2007/start.html)...

[MadDoc]

For all the conspiracy freaks out there.

A couple of weeks ago I posted info that Apple had a huge presence at this years NAB show in April.I found this out by going to Apple's website and looking at their list of upcoming events.Apple had the link to the NAB show there.It has been removed from the site.

If one goes to the NAB Show website and look at the exhibitors list Apple is no longer listed like it was when I visited that site a couple weeks ago,however if you dig deeper and look at the floorplan Apple is shown now with one VERY LARGE booth.It measures 160'X160'..

It makes me wonder exactly why Apple removed the NAB show listing from their upcoming events page and why the NAB removed Apple from the official list even though Apple is on the floorplan.


Something BIG is on it's way.
It's just one Mac freak's opinion but watch out for late March early April!!

What's the NAB show?

MadDoc,

[Peace]

What's the NAB show?

MadDoc,


The National Association Of Broadcasters (http://nabshow.com/) show is the largest professional Audio/Video/Production/TV Broadcasting/Media Professionals show of the year.

[MadDoc]

Meh,

I doubt the NAB show appearance has squat to do with Leopard in that case!

I want garbage collection in Objective-C darn it!

MadDoc,

[Peace]

Meh,

I doubt the NAB show appearance has squat to do with Leopard in that case!

I want garbage collection in Objective-C darn it!

MadDoc,

imho Leopard has a LOT to do with digital technology and *gasp* HDTV's

As a matter of fact I'm going out on a limb and predicting right now that Apple will be introducing HDTV's and other types of "Living Room" electronic gadgets.

I've been way off before though so :-)

[MadDoc]

HDTV?

I'm from the UK.

You've got to be joking.

MadDoc,

[Peace]

HDTV?

I'm from the UK.

You've got to be joking.

MadDoc,

The U.S National Broadcasters don't revolve around the UK.Nothing personal :)

[MadDoc]

No offence taken. I just wish the UK would embrace HDTV like the states is doing :cool:

MadDoc,

[EagerDragon]

Sure... Leave it to Apple to ignore standard math and come up with 1=0, 1+1=1, and 2+1=2, and so on.

Sounds like college math all over again. 1=1 unless x+1=Apple.

I guess they like to think different :rolleyes:

Maybe I'll try that one with my wife. Tell her, I didn't forget. It's just the way I do math. You'll see. I'll get you a gift on the date that I mathematically calculate to be our anniversary. Thinking that 1=1 is so yesterday. Get over it. Slap :mad:

<Sound of rings being flushed>

[flyinmac]

<Sound of rings being flushed>

Exactly :cool:

[shawnce]

I've posted this before. I think there were also other versions of OS X (maybe 10.1?) that were released on 3/24.

Nope no other version of Mac OS X (http://www.levenez.com/unix/history.html#13)has been release on 3/24 other then 10.0.

[darh]

For all the conspiracy freaks out there.

A couple of weeks ago I posted info that Apple had a huge presence at this years NAB show in April.I found this out by going to Apple's website and looking at their list of upcoming events.Apple had the link to the NAB show there.It has been removed from the site.

If one goes to the NAB Show website and look at the exhibitors list Apple is no longer listed like it was when I visited that site a couple weeks ago,however if you dig deeper and look at the floorplan Apple is shown now with one VERY LARGE booth.It measures 160'X160'..

It makes me wonder exactly why Apple removed the NAB show listing from their upcoming events page and why the NAB removed Apple from the official list even though Apple is on the floorplan.


Something BIG is on it's way.
It's just one Mac freak's opinion but watch out for late March early April!!

ehm, when I look at apples website I do see NAB listed:

http://www.jasperbel.nl/images/events.png

Their booth is indeed very large, the biggest of all booth at NAB...

[Peace]

ehm, when I look at apples website I do see NAB listed:

http://www.jasperbel.nl/images/events.png

Their booth is indeed very large, the biggest of all booth at NAB...

Ya I saw that list yesterday but when I first saw it it was on this page.Now it's gone.

[j26]

I hope its released soon. I just unwrapped the trial version of '06 that came with my MacBook and I'm liking Pages a lot. I had a quick trick about with keynote and it also looks very good (but I have limited use for it at the moment). A spreadsheet would be great.

Unfortunately I only have 26 days left on the trial and I'm not buying '06 with '07 so close :( .

[jotadeo]

I think I read somewhere that Apples considers the first year as year zero, so year 31 would be year 30th. I guess it comes from all the programming where array subscripts start with 0 and not 1. LOL

Year 1 is year 0, that is, if you follow the way we look at people's ages. When you are born, you are not considered to be a 1-year old (unless you're in Korea or some other country that looks at it that way...Turkey does too, I think). Up until your 1st b-day you are in your 1st year of life, but you are not 1 until your 1st b-day. Then you are 1 until your next b-day.

So, if you were born on April 1, 1976, then you would have turned 30 on April 1, 2006 and you would be 30 until April 1, 2007. Following that logic, there is some time left yet. And I am sure that you'd be glad to get a b-day present belatedly, especially if it were a nice mac loaded with tons of fun stuff!!!

[this is what gets me to join MR! :D ...well, this is an area where I can actually add something to the conversation. Glad to join the fun!!!!!]

[MacAaron]

I am planning to switch from Windows to Mac, but I am waiting for Leopard to come out.

[lord patton]

I hope its released soon. I just unwrapped the trial version of '06 that came with my MacBook and I'm liking Pages a lot. I had a quick trick about with keynote and it also looks very good (but I have limited use for it at the moment). A spreadsheet would be great.

Unfortunately I only have 26 days left on the trial and I'm not buying '06 with '07 so close :( .

My wife is in the same boat, and she keeps asking me when she can buy Pages.

However, she hasn't quit Pages is several weeks, and the program continues to work... even though her "trial" has been over for at least a fortnight. So I told her not to quit or shut down or run any software updates until iwork '07 comes out. Impossible on a PC, easy on a Mac :apple: :apple: :apple:

[guzhogi]

My wife is in the same boat, and she keeps asking me when she can buy Pages.

However, she hasn't quit Pages is several weeks, and the program continues to work... even though her "trial" has been over for at least a fortnight. So I told her not to quit or shut down or run any software updates until iwork '07 comes out. Impossible on a PC, easy on a Mac :apple: :apple: :apple:

I found out a way to have the trial go on forever: delete the preferences! That resets the trial to whatever it is (30 days?). Don't know if this is legal, but definitely possible.

[Peace]

Sure has been quiet in Macdom since MacWorld..Eerily quiet if you ask me.

just a thought :)

[Nenita]

Sure has been quiet in Macdom since MacWorld..Eerily quiet if you ask me.

just a thought :)

hehehe... just wait for the cat that is coming... it will surprise you in ways you did not expect....lol

:apple: :cool: :apple:

[j26]

My wife is in the same boat, and she keeps asking me when she can buy Pages.

However, she hasn't quit Pages is several weeks, and the program continues to work... even though her "trial" has been over for at least a fortnight. So I told her not to quit or shut down or run any software updates until iwork '07 comes out. Impossible on a PC, easy on a Mac :apple: :apple: :apple:

Does that work through sleep? I'm on a MacBook and I need to be portable.

deleting the preferences is possible, but I've a lot of custom styles/templates already, and I'd hate to have to redo them all.

[BenRoethig]

Sure has been quiet in Macdom since MacWorld..Eerily quiet if you ask me.

just a thought :)

Which means Apple has something up their sleeve or the iPod world is just more important to them right now.

[lord patton]

Does that work through sleep? I'm on a MacBook and I need to be portable.

yes, sleep's no problem.

[Peace]

hehehe... just wait for the cat that is coming... it will surprise you in ways you did not expect....lol

:apple: :cool: :apple:


I doubt it very much ;)

[Telp]

Which means Apple has something up their sleeve or the iPod world is just more important to them right now.


no WAY apple wouldnt do that

[ortuno2k]

I'm sick of waiting! I'm checking the MacRumors homepage at least 10-15 times a day; and Apple's website another 5-7 times, hoping for some news, a bit of light or something...but no, it's iPhone all over.
I think ThinkSecret is full of it.

[MikeTheC]

Meh. I'm not a gamer, so the possibility of gaming on the :apple:TV, while interesting on a purely technical basis, is of little practical value to me.

And without actual PVR capabilities, I think the :apple:TV will be a major disappointment to many of those who actually buy it, and a flop as far as overall sales go.

[seashellz2]

June 12-deal with it...
Large problems to deal with in just 3 months.
Oh, and BTW...we will see a 10.4.10...

10.4.9 should be released while you are reading this....

[Nenita]

Meh. I'm not a gamer, so the possibility of gaming on the :apple:TV, while interesting on a purely technical basis, is of little practical value to me.

And without actual PVR capabilities, I think the :apple:TV will be a major disappointment to many of those who actually buy it, and a flop as far as overall sales go.

once more :apple: TV is not ment to be a stand alone product, it is ment to work with a "main" computer, a "digital hub" the :apple: TV only job is to get the information to your TV from your main Computer; Now that said i thnk some of you guys are forgeting the mini, this little machine fits great in the livingroom plug it upto a 50" HDTV, add a wireless KB and mouse, stak it onto a 500GB HD (more if you like) and an 8211n wireless router and that alone its a great little media center. now just for ***** and giggles lets say it gets a TV tuner and elgato software (they have some TV tuner adaptors the size of flash drives) and a better Video card...

then get more games (casual gaming style games for now) into the iTMS, and te final development of cider in to the computer game industry....

its coming... the question is ... when?

:apple: :cool: :apple:

[GregA]

And without actual PVR capabilities, I think the :apple:TV will be a major disappointment to many of those who actually buy it, and a flop as far as overall sales go.

To me, in Australia, the AppleTV is simply INCAPABLE of showing TV without a PVR. Music, iPhoto slideshows, and movie previews - but there's no movie store.

We'll know more soon about how expandable (or not) the AppleTV is - after all, it is just a simpler PentiumM-based Mac running OSX withOUT the standard GUI. As such I'm not convinced that AppleTV won't have PVR capability via EyeTV, nor that it's not expandable with other codecs (DivX/XviD). We'll see soon.

[flyinmac]

June 12-deal with it...
Large problems to deal with in just 3 months.
Oh, and BTW...we will see a 10.4.10...

10.4.9 should be released while you are reading this....


Thank you for the enlightenment. Downloading 10.4.9 as I type. Thank you for the heads-up.

[thunderclap]

Thank you for the enlightenment. Downloading 10.4.9 as I type. Thank you for the heads-up.

Where are you finding 10.4.9? It's not in the Software Update nor can I find it listed on Apple's site.

[ghall]

Where are you finding 10.4.9? It's not in the Software Update nor can I find it listed on Apple's site.

I think it was sarcasm.

[flyinmac]

I think it was sarcasm.

Yep. Surprised it took that long for someone to try it.

When it becomes available, it should be at this link though:

PowerPC
http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/macosx1049comboupdateppc.html

or, if you have an Intel system:
http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/macosx1049comboupdateintel.html

Of course, Apple could change their site structure and post it somewhere else as well.

Until then, don't expect anything useful at those links.

[Peace]

March 5th is going to be a very,very busy day.

[flyinmac]

March 5th is going to be a very,very busy day.

Now you're just messing with us :p

[zblaxberg]

I'm sick of waiting! I'm checking the MacRumors homepage at least 10-15 times a day; and Apple's website another 5-7 times, hoping for some news, a bit of light or something...but no, it's iPhone all over.
I think ThinkSecret is full of it.

I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed when tuesday comes around because for months we have all been expecting leopard to come out but i don't have high hopes for its release any time soon. the rumors sites suck at getting the release date right and no one is gonna know till the day of so i'm kinda just giving up on waiting for leopard unfortunately

[zblaxberg]

March 5th is going to be a very,very busy day.

what's planned for march 5th? have you given up on the feb20th release date as well?

[flyinmac]

so i'm kinda just giving up on waiting for leopard unfortunately

If you are planning to just go ahead and buy a new Mac now, I can guarantee you that on whatever day you purchase it, Leopard will be released immediately on the following day.

Go ahead and buy your new Mac. I'm tired of waiting for Leopard. Buy your Mac today so I can get Leopard tomorrow ;)

[mark88]

There's a black hole when it comes to Mac News lately. I'm dissapointed that we've not seen anything of Leopard since WWDC in August, if Steve would have told us then that you wouldn't hear or see *anything* else regarding Leopard for 6+ months then people would have wondered what's up.

[flyinmac]

There's a black hole when it comes to Mac News lately. I'm dissapointed that we've not seen anything of Leopard since WWDC in August, if Steve would have told us then that you wouldn't hear or see *anything* else regarding Leopard for 6+ months then people would have wondered what's up.

Yes, the long silence from Apple definitely gives the feeling that major changes are coming. No real computer advances, almost no computer updates, and basically nothing for 6 months now is quite unusual for Apple.

Usually, they update on a rotating schedule. But, lately, it seems as though they aren't doing anything.

Sure, they announced an over-priced phone. But, even that isn't really a big deal. It just makes them one more brand of phone offered by the cell phone companies. It doesn't really do much for advancing the Mac product line though.

O.K., here's the real secret. All the office lights at Apple are off. Everyone's gone home. They're just letting us buy-up the products as long as we are willing. Once we catch-on, they'll come forward and admit that we have seen the last of the Mac.

The one guy left handling orders is sitting in a big empty office with a full warehouse. His days are lonely as he sits by himself filling orders. But, he knows it won't be for long. He knows his last day is coming as well.

The poor guy.

[zblaxberg]

I don't think the source can be that reliable if it confirmed a release date of March for Leopard.

I can't say to much because I develop for the Macintosh platform so my evaluation of the beta test of Leopard is covered by an NDA, so I can make no comment on the OS itself and how ready it is.

I'm running the 9A343 release that came out only a few days ago and I would put my money on it not being a March release.

Apple are making massive strides in the development of Leopard, but this is too an aggressive turn-around even for Jobs to pull off.

I saw this somehwere else and i'm still doubting it's release which really sucks:mad:

p.s. that was posted about 3 weeks ago

[Habusho]

March is next month! That would be out of this world if it was true.

[bwanac]

This better come out soon... it would be nice if apple did a windows and let us buy now promising an upgrade to leopard when it comes out.

[sonicboom]

I would pay $130 just for Time Machine.

And I'd give one or two body parts for the new Mail and iCal.

I'd also like to have an OS that was built for an Intel processor (Tiger was developed for PPC, then ported to Intel).

P.S. And compare the $130 for all the new cool stuff in Leopard vs. the $200-400 for the lame-excuse-for-an-upgrade called Vista.

Tiger is OS X... OS X is unix... Unix is a very portable operating system. Most of the code is written in a high-level portable language (C). Only a tiny percentage of the code is machine specific.

In other words, while OS X debuted on PPC, porting to other architectures is a trivial exercise in the grand scheme of things. It runs just as naturally today on Intel as it does on PPC.

Leopard may deliver some more performance optimizations, but I think they will go largely unnoticed, overshadowed by the new features.

[bousozoku]

Tiger is OS X... OS X is unix... Unix is a very portable operating system. Most of the code is written in a high-level portable language (C). Only a tiny percentage of the code is machine specific.

In other words, while OS X debuted on PPC, porting to other architectures is a trivial exercise in the grand scheme of things. It runs just as naturally today on Intel as it does on PPC.

Leopard may deliver some more performance optimizations, but I think they will go largely unnoticed, overshadowed by the new features.

Considering what people have posted of the virtual memory system statistics, I'd say the Intel version of Mac OS X doesn't run as naturally as the PowerPC version. Hopefully, Leopard will fix that because it seems to lead to more disk access than is necessary.

While Apple apparently had an Intel version running as long as the PowerPC version, they didn't have a wide range of real world field testing, as they do now with so many users.

By the way, please don't resort to insults. It's not necessary to make a point.

[Peace]

what's planned for march 5th? have you given up on the feb20th release date as well?

Never did think anything was or is going to happen Feb.20.

The March 5th thing.I was referring to the approx. date a lot of people will have their new :apple: TV hooked up. :)

[eluk]

Tomorrow will come and go without troubling us. :)

[psychofreak]

Tomorrow will come and go without troubling us. :)

I hope apple bring an unfinished OS out early just to spite you!

[eluk]

I'll let you help iron out the bugs then. :)

[ortuno2k]

There.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zfs

I think the part about boiling the oceans is pretty cool. Geek factor.:D

[scokim]

From an email sent out :
"With over 100 sessions devoted to Mac OS X Leopard technology and personal access to the engineers behind it, WWDC 2007 will be a critical stop for any developer on the road to a killer Leopard-ready application. And for IT professionals, there's no better place to go in-depth with Leopard and Leopard Server."

Note the word Leopard-ready. Does that mean Leopard won't be out by then ?

[Toe]

Note the word Leopard-ready. Does that mean Leopard won't be out by then ?
I suspect not. They can't say "Leopard compatible" because that engenders negative connotations of incompatibility. "Leopard ready" just seems to imply that it is ready (as in able) to take advantage of Leopard's features, not that it is ready for the eventual release of Leopard.

[Peace]

From an email sent out :
"With over 100 sessions devoted to Mac OS X Leopard technology and personal access to the engineers behind it, WWDC 2007 will be a critical stop for any developer on the road to a killer Leopard-ready application. And for IT professionals, there's no better place to go in-depth with Leopard and Leopard Server."

Note the word Leopard-ready. Does that mean Leopard won't be out by then ?

On the contrary.The email sent out and the new sessions descriptions themselves imply Leopard will have already been released when these sessions take place in June.

[matticus008]

On the contrary.The email sent out and the new sessions descriptions themselves imply Leopard will have already been released when these sessions take place in June.
Absolutely, with the one possible caveat that "released" might not necessarily also imply shipping by WWDC.

[MacAaron]

It looks like to me the only major addition from Mac OS X 10.4 to Mac OS X 10.5 is Time Machine and Spaces (which you can other freeware version of this). These to me are the only notable upgrades from Tiger to Leopard in my opinion.

[Samwise592]

It looks like to me the only major addition from Mac OS X 10.4 to Mac OS X 10.5 is Time Machine and Spaces (which you can other freeware version of this). These to me are the only notable upgrades from Tiger to Leopard in my opinion.

well, don't forget about all those fun "secret features" that good O'l Steve hasen't told us about yet.

[Toe]

There's the little issue of the integrated calendar/contacts/mail. If you've ever tried to share a calendar with iCal, you'd know how sucky it is now and how excellent the new versions look.

And anyway... Time Machine in itself is worth $130. It is a very nice backup system and a revolutionary way to do restores.

[TigerPRO]

I was as surprised as anyone when Apple didn't even mumble a peep at Macworld about iLife, iWork, or Leopard. But the longer it takes, the more excited I get. It's only going to be that much better and or more stable if they take their time. Rushing products out the door isn't good for anyone. As the iLife updates have started to weaken of intensity over the years, I think a longer development cycle has been long overdue.

[Manic Mouse]

I was as surprised as anyone when Apple didn't even mumble a peep at Macworld about iLife, iWork, or Leopard. But the longer it takes, the more excited I get. It's only going to be that much better and or more stable if they take their time. Rushing products out the door isn't good for anyone. As the iLife updates have started to weaken of intensity over the years, I think a longer development cycle has been long overdue.

Just think how excited we'll all be if they release it in 40 years!

[Chris Bangle]

Ideally leopard should ship with a 200GB ext harddrive, infrared receiver for frontrow, remote, and a cloth to clean ure mac with like the one provided with my imac G4. These should all be standard or included in a Leopard Ultimate Version for like £50 more

[aswitcher]

I really hope they do a Mega-Family Combo Pack of all 3 at some discount.

[Mgkwho]

Does anyone think Apple will release any new hardware before Leopard?

I did think that, but now that it's been so long (4 months) without a release, I'm wondering if Apple just wants to wait.

I don't really see the point, I mean they could market it for new computers afterwards, but their bit about Vista is that Leopard runs on old hardware too.

I do see the point for software that relies on Leopard, just not hardware.

-=|Mgkwho

[Telp]

I really hope they do a Mega-Family Combo Pack of all 3 at some discount.

whats that mean?

[Telp]

Does anyone think Apple will release any new hardware before Leopard?

I did think that, but now that it's been so long (4 months) without a release, I'm wondering if Apple just wants to wait.

I don't really see the point, I mean they could market it for new computers afterwards, but their bit about Vista is that Leopard runs on old hardware too.

I do see the point for software that relies on Leopard, just not hardware.

-=|Mgkwho

I hope so, though it's not like I will be buying any of it, it would just be nice to see.

[aswitcher]

whats that mean?

Leopard, iLife 07, iWorks 07 - 5 licence family version. Cheaper than buying family versions of Leopard etc seperatly

[Telp]

Leopard, iLife 07, iWorks 07 - 5 licence family version. Cheaper than buying family versions of Leopard etc seperatly

oh yes, wouldnt that be amazing, tho im the only one who uses iLife so its not a big deal, but that would be a great deal for those.

[Toe]

Does anyone think Apple will release any new hardware before Leopard?
-=|Mgkwho

Adobe is releasing CS3 at the end of March. Apple almost has to release new Mac Pros then.

April 1 is always a big day for Apple. It seems like a great day to release some new hardware... if not to "April Fools" us by releasing Leopard and iLife and the iPhone on April 1st.

[Telp]

Adobe is releasing CS3 at the end of March. Apple almost has to release new Mac Pros then.

April 1 is always a big day for Apple. It seems like a great day to release some new hardware... if not to "April Fools" us by releasing Leopard and iLife and the iPhone on April 1st.

now that would be amazing! hahaha

[murfle]

Adobe is releasing CS3 at the end of March. Apple almost has to release new Mac Pros then.

Actually, Adobe is announcing the release date at the end of March. March 27th to be exact. True, they could say "We're releasing March 30th" or earlier, but I highly doubt that. If Adobe comes back and says they're releasing in June, then by your logic, Apple has a few months... :P

[TigerPRO]

Just think how excited we'll all be if they release it in 40 years!

I would be excited; except by then I might be dead. So in the meantime I think they should split that forty year upgrade cycle into smaller chunks like two years. They make enough progress in several years to merit a significant update. Microsoft taking over half a decade to release Vista should have meant they were unvieling the greatest leap of technology in the history of mankind. But instead it was nothing more than a fancy service pack for Windows XP that costs money.*

* denotes a ridiculous exaggeration.

[mrkgoo]

i'm starting to believe a makeover is going to be in Leopard - and that's teh reason iLife is also kinda low on the radar - ti might give away some of the features they have planned. Perhaps wishful thinking.

[TigerPRO]

It looks like to me the only major addition from Mac OS X 10.4 to Mac OS X 10.5 is Time Machine and Spaces (which you can other freeware version of this). These to me are the only notable upgrades from Tiger to Leopard in my opinion.

I have been around on these forums during the development of Panther, Tiger, and now Leopard. For those of you interested, there is a distinct pattern. Every time, without fail, a significant number of users will always come out suggesting that the upgrade is either overpriced, insignificant, or unnecessary. They also always have one thing in common: they are mistaken. If you had listened to all the complaining and opinions on this forum since then, you would have come to the conclusion that there really isn't any big difference between Jaguar and Tiger! Which is ludicrous! Here are some obvious examples of the macrumors disease of oversimplification:

Panther Upgrade: "I'm not paying $130 for just Exposé and user switching!"

Tiger Upgrade: "Dashboard and Spotlight are really the only new features!"

Leopard Upgrade: "Time Machine? Is that all they can come up with?"

Look, an operating system is a huge piece of software and technology. There is allot more to it than meets the eye. Most of you are utterly clueless about the inner workings of Tiger; and ironically, these invisible things you have taken for granted have probably affected you more than the 'front-stage' features (like dashboard) that you thought were the most important.

Here is a simple analogy I'd like you to try on for size. The Macintosh operating system is almost like a car. There is vast difference between a 1960 Cadillac with 300,000 miles on it and a 2007 Cadillac with 50 miles on it. And guess what, at the end of the day, both cars will get you from point A to point B! But it would be idiotic for me to assume that there aren't other drastic ramifications to consider between the two. You can't oversimplify the situation and say that the 1960 model "does the same exact thing" and that "you would be wasting your money on a new one." If that's your philosophy, I suggest you save a few bucks and look into a used copy of Puma on Ebay.*

So, if you are new to the Macintosh operating system, and this will be your first upgrade, I advise you against taking the impressions of every obsurd notions that Leopard is anything less than earth shakering; because it is!!!

* slight exaggeration for affect

[Manic Mouse]

I would be excited; except by then I might be dead. So in the meantime I think they should split that forty year upgrade cycle into smaller chunks like two years. They make enough progress in several years to merit a significant update. Microsoft taking over half a decade to release Vista should have meant they were unvieling the greatest leap of technology in the history of mankind. But instead it was nothing more than a fancy service pack for Windows XP that costs money.*

* denotes a ridiculous exaggeration.

Actucally you're not far wrong. I've been running Vista for nearly a year now (I'm a beta tester) and I'm pretty sick of the OS to be honest. The little innovation that it does have over XP has been largely ripped off from other sources, it's a resource hog and it has the most irritating security system. It astounds me that OSX is a far more advanced OS yet at the same time runs on a lot less system resources.

I can't wait to buy my first Mac as soon as Santa Rosa MBs are released (along with Leopard of course).

[Multimedia]

I doubt there will be an iLife/iWork '07. The release is late enough to skip '07 and call them iLife/iWork '08. That way they don't have to come up with more features in only 6 months and the name will work until January 2009 MacWorld Expo on the eve of the Lion 10.6 OS X release. :D

[eluk]

Alternatively they could release iLife/iWork '07 so and skip an '08 version. Although personally I prefer your scenario.

[twoodcc]

I doubt there will be an iLife/iWork '07. The release is late enough to skip '07 and call them iLife/iWork '08. That way they don't have to come up with more features in only 6 months and the name will work until January 2009 MacWorld Expo on the eve of the Lion 10.6 OS X release. :D

yeah i think this is whats gonna happen.....or least i hope it happens...

[Nitromaster]

well, don't forget about all those fun "secret features" that good O'l Steve hasen't told us about yet.
Like compiz , hopefully,

[LS1]

Here is a simple analogy I'd like you to try on for size. The Macintosh operating system is almost like a car. There is vast difference between a 1960 Cadillac with 300,000 miles on it and a 2007 Cadillac with 50 miles on it. And guess what, at the end of the day, both cars will get you from point A to point B! But it would be idiotic for me to assume that there aren't other drastic ramifications to consider between the two. You can't oversimplify the situation and say that the 1960 model "does the same exact thing" and that "you would be wasting your money on a new one." If that's your philosophy, I suggest you save a few bucks and look into a used copy of Puma on Ebay.*

So, if you are new to the Macintosh operating system, and this will be your first upgrade, I advise you against taking the impressions of every obsurd notions that Leopard is anything less than earth shakering; because it is!!!

* slight exaggeration for affect

I do agree with you for the most part, but that analogy is ridiculous. A car with 300,000 miles is a piece of crap and will die soon. An operating system that has been out for a few years, and has receive numerous updates and improvements, is nothing like an old car. Tiger is still a great operating system and leopard, although great, will need some time to work out bugs (yes there will be bugs).

So, *old piece of crap car vs brand new car* is nothing like *tiger vs leopard*.

[Chris Bangle]

or they could just call it ilife 7

[phillipjfry]

...The little innovation that it does have over XP has been largely ripped off from other sources, it's a resource hog and it has the most irritating security system...

Actually funny story behind that. While out and about with my girlfriend, we stopped by Fry's over the weekend to look at everything. We get to making our rounds (and hoping...just hoping that they would have an :apple:tv) and as usual we stop at the laptops since she has been in the market for one (and will most likely end up getting a MB). They all had vista running on them. She started to play on one of them and it kept coming up with that annoying "You just clicked this, Cancel or Allow" (yes, I know I oversimplified the box). After a few minutes of frustration just trying to look around, she walks away stating "I can't believe people paid for that!" I giggled as I continued to play with the laptop I had my eye on....until it froze on me. :(
*hugs his 24'' iMac* :)

[jonutarr]

I cant believe iLife is taking this long, it better be damn good

[Telp]

I cant believe iLife is taking this long, it better be damn good

It prolly shares some sort of new UI or something under the hood so that it has to wait for leopard.

[billyboy]

I consulted time machine for a prediction of when leopard is coming out for the masses, and it crashed before it could provide the answer!

[GregA]

I consulted time machine for a prediction of when leopard is coming out for the masses, and it crashed before it could provide the answer!
The good thing about having a time machine built into your computer is that it removes all lag.

The trick is that after the computer has spent 2 hours performing some task, it sends the result back in time to the exact instant you clicked your mouse... so it no longer has to perform the task. Everything becomes instant.

Of course there are those that say that this causes a multitude of minor paradoxes and muddies up the timelines with lots of stray time strands, but most people are willing to risk ripping a hole in the universe for the chance of saving a few seconds.

(Yes - converting a divx to AppleTV format becomes instant too.)

[MacPomme]

Rumours and suspicions abound with regard to the secret functionality that Apple has held back from public announcement in relation to it’s forthcoming release of OSX 10.5 Leopard.

Steve Job’s mocked at WWDC ’06 that the reason some details were held back from public announcement was to prevent the competition, aka Microsoft, from being able to copy these secrets into what was, at the time, the impending finalisation of Windows Vista. I do love that line “Redmond, start your photocopiers.” though.

So why didn’t Steve announce the complete functionality of OS X 10.5 at WWDC - was it really to stop Microsoft copying some “new and you beaut” technology in the weeks between WWDC and Windows Vista RTM version? Of course not. We all know that was just some PR.

Could it have been because Apple was unsure whether the secret bits would not be finished in time to meet the release deadlines? Possibly, but I don’t think so - and I’ll explain why later. So we’ve just about ruled out competitive pressures and product feature completion as the reasons behind Apple not announcing the full functionality of OS X 10.5 Leopard.

And then along comes the iPhone announcement at Macworld. But! At MacWorld there was hardly a mention of Mac’s by Apple nor of OS X 10.5 Leopard. Apple, Steve, was conspicuously silent on both subjects except a brief mention that the transition to Intel had been completed ahead of schedule. That was it.

And where are we, as Apple product consumers, now (late March ‘07)? We still know nothing further of the secret features of OS X 10.5 Leopard, and a variety of forecasters are suggesting that all Mac models are overdue for upgrades.

Furthermore, iLife ’07 and iWork ’07 are due - and again not a word exists in the aether as to their release dates or possible functionality - save the spreadsheet and, less likely, database rumours. So why hasn’t Apple announced any of its secrets? Vista’s been released so what the heck!

There must be a legitimate and cogent business rationale for not disclosing what it is about OS X 10.5 Leopard that is so secret that announcing it early would create unrealistic expectations in the market that will not be met, or that announcing the full functionality would have harmed income and profit between the time of announcement and the time of release to market.

My vivid belief is that Apple has held back on all, but some innocuous, functionality announcements regarding OS X 10.5 Leopard for fear of creating such an expectation, anticipation and demand for an unreleased product that income and profit would suffer significantly between the period from the announcement to the release.

OS X 10.5 Leopard will introduce, in my opinion, a revolutionary user interface on a new line of Mac hardware models that will not require, but can use, a keyboard and a mouse. For support of this “guess” have a look at the way OS X has been implemented on the iPhone. Also have a look at Jeff Han’s presentation on revolutionary computer - human interfaces. The similarities are striking - and relevant.

I intentionally used the words “revolutionary UI” in the above paragraph. That is exactly what Steve Job’s said about OS X on the iPhone. Why would this sort of interface be made available by Apple ONLY on the iPhone. Why not capitalise on this multiple-touch sensitive screen on all Apple models with a screen.

Of course this type of human-computer interface cannot be tested on anything but a computer with a touch sensitive screen in the vein of the iPhone or the screen technology used by Jeff Han in his presentation. Hence all developer seeds of OS X 10.5 do not include this revolutionary UI. It can’t be used by them, why include it.

Steve even alluded to this in the iPhone Keynote - saying that Apple had tried a variety of technologies before settling on the one implemented in the iPhone. Why would Apple amortise the cost of such research only on the iPhone?

A simple look at the facets Apple has included in OS X 10.5 are pointers:

* Core Animation
* Resolution Independence
* Garbage Collection
* XCode 3.0 (not released because to do so would give away the UI)

iMacs, Macbooks and Macbook Pros are all due for upgrades - if you are one who subscribes to a time based model for hardware upgrades.

If my guesses above are anywhere near the truth, then it follows that if Apple had announced this revolutionary UI at WWDC ’06, or anytime before product release, sales of Mac hardware would have fallen off significantly while consumers waited for OS X 10.5 Leopard to be finalised and released. An announcement of this kind would have dramatically affected the transition to Intel, and also the conversion of many Windows users to Mac / OS X users.

A couple of other rumours are germaine:

* Apple building a tablet PC. Well this is close to the mark but not quite on the money.
* OS X 10.5 Leopard is a 3D operating system (well Finder). Again this is close to but not quite the whole story.

Apple is a company in business. They do things for business and not emotive reasons. An announcement of such functionality in OS X 10.5 Leopard, or a major hardware model change (multiple-touch sensitive screens) would have impacted its bottom line significantly and weakened dramatically the impact of the Intel transition, and consequent switchers from Windows to OS X.

Oh, and I think that Steve didn't mention OS X, Macs or iLife / iWork at Macworld for 2 reasons:

* Apple didn't want to steal any thunder away from the iPhone - fair enough; and
* Apple didn't want to draw any attention to the feature set in OS X and, possibly, iLife and iWork '07, and they certainly didn't want to defer sales of new Macs if they announced touch screen technology was planned.

Is OS X Leopard a Windows Vista killer? No question of it, provided you, the consumer, have the hardware to support its revolutionary new interface.

So, thats it for me this autumn afternoon on the patio … time for another cold beer.

(Posted in OS X Forum as well)

[JNB]

Rumours and suspicions abound with regard to the secret functionality that Apple has held back from public announcement in relation to it’s forthcoming release of OSX 10.5 Leopard.
<severely snipped>

While you may be as completely wrong as I - and others - will likely be, that was nonetheless one of the most cogent and possibly prescient analyses thus far on the entire OS/Hardware update saga.

A good read. Thanks much! :D

[GregA]

OS X 10.5 Leopard will introduce, in my opinion, a revolutionary user interface on a new line of Mac hardware models that will not require, but can use, a keyboard and a mouse. I was about to say the same thing as John.

While the interpretation is a stretch and may be wrong, it is one of the most thoughtful analyses on the current state of Apple's plans that I have seen, far exceeding many of the "analysts" we see out there. And I've read a lot.

Thank you
ps.
On a related note, I was watching the AppleTV screen saver on a small screen, seeing lots of great pictures go by. Occassionally I wanted to touch the screen and push a picture to the right or left so I could look at something behind it... it seemed such a natural thing to do.

[jayeskreezy]

perhaps they are just waiting for the new fiscal year to begin

[GregA]

(Posted in OS X Forum as well)
Where's the other post? I'd like to see other comments.

[TigerPRO]

I do agree with you for the most part, but that analogy is ridiculous. A car with 300,000 miles is a piece of crap and will die soon. An operating system that has been out for a few years, and has receive numerous updates and improvements, is nothing like an old car. Tiger is still a great operating system and leopard, although great, will need some time to work out bugs (yes there will be bugs).

So, *old piece of crap car vs brand new car* is nothing like *tiger vs leopard*.

Every analogy fails at some point of course. And that's because in any comparison you'll find other properties that don't line up with your point. I was exclusively making a comparison with that of functionality; not appearance or longevity. As you validly distinguish, this analogy only works on that very isolated portion of it. Perhaps we should revise the comparison to a new 1960 Cadillac vs. a new 2007 Cadillac.

[Jarcrew]

http://www.lifestartsat.com/motoring/img/swiss_tony.gif
"You know, selling an operating system is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman..."

[eluk]

…and he'd know?

[mark88]

I'm doubting whether it's going to ve even called iLife 07...

iLife 07.5 or iLife 08 might be more appropriate if they don't hurry up ;-)

[peharri]

And look at the Apple.com front page, it's showing the Leopard box with the slogan "Even a Tiger changes its spots. Available now. $129. For Mac or PC"







Just kidding.

Har har!

[emotion]

Ban?


:)

[Slumbercub]

http://www.lifestartsat.com/motoring/img/swiss_tony.gif
"You know, selling an operating system is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman..."

LOL. The fabulous Swiss Tony, if only he worked for Apple.:D

[gusapple]

Wow, now I feel like an idiot for thinking that this would come out in March!

[Telp]

Wow, now I feel like an idiot for thinking that this would come out in March!

=D It would have been a disaster had it been released then.

[nitynate]

Wow, now I feel like an idiot for thinking that this would come out in March!
Holy bump, Batman!