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MacRumors
Feb 13, 2007, 02:04 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

With the early announcement of the iPhone, competition appears to be heating up for similar touch-screen cellphones from other manufacturers.

VR Zone posts (http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=4659) photos of an iPhone look-alike from Chinese company Meizu. The "miniOne" reportedly runs Windows CE 6.0 and offers a similar look to the unreleased Apple iPhone. The clone, however, does offer a higher resolution screen (720x480) and a 3 megapixel camera.

Meanwhile, Samsung has announced the F700 (http://news.com.com/2300-1035_3-6158987-1.html) which also incorporates a touch-screen, but also offers a slide-out keyboard for text entry.

Finally TelecomsKorea reports (http://www.telecomskorea.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=5074&Itemid=42) that LG officials believe that the iPhone is a copy of their Prada phone, which was shown 3 months before the iPhone's announcement.

We consider that Apple copycat Prada phone after the design was unveiled when it was presented in the iF Design Award and won the prize in September 2006.

The similarities between the Prada phone and the Apple iPhone were widely noted (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/11/iphone-and-lg-ke850-separated-at-birth) shortly after the iPhone's announcement.

Based on the available information, none of the iPhone-alikes appear to offer a multi-touch screen which has been considered an innovative new feature of the iPhone.



aricher
Feb 13, 2007, 02:11 PM
Nobody will get close to replicating Apple's intuitive UI. They may have touch-screen abilities but that doesn't make them iPhones.

jonharris200
Feb 13, 2007, 02:13 PM
Based on the available information, none of the iPhone-alikes appear to offer a multi-touch screen which has been considered an innovative new feature of the iPhone.

And there it is.

bbydon
Feb 13, 2007, 02:13 PM
I did see the Prada phone when it came out then the iphone. I couldnt believe the iphones similarities to the prada LG....

Just posing a dumb question but what if the iphone isnt the final design....and it was just another mock up?

kansaigaijin
Feb 13, 2007, 02:14 PM
LG knows how long it takes to design, prototype, and get a device to work.

rubbish.

eenu
Feb 13, 2007, 02:14 PM
Based on the available information, none of the iPhone-alikes appear to offer a multi-touch screen which has been considered an innovative new feature of the iPhone.

EEEErrrrrrr maybe because its patented!

As Jobs said at the keynote!

lazyrighteye
Feb 13, 2007, 02:14 PM
Of the three mentioned, that miniOne looks the most like the iPhone. Even down to their iCal-like icon.
And is that a camera facing the user, I see??

OK Samsung's. I get it. They both have rounded corners.
Beyond that the F700 looks as much like an iPhone as I do Brad Pitt.

For LG to claim Apple ripped THEM off is merely to generate buzz about their POS phone. That said, there is no way Apple saw the Prada, thought "wow, that looks incredible" and then designed, produced and presented their own by MWSF. No way. Nope. Wrong.

Clone all you want people. You don't have multi-touch nor OS X.

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 13, 2007, 02:15 PM
But the iPhone was in development for a couple of years, the wankstains at LG can shove it. How different can two phones with an entire touch screen face look from each other? :rolleyes:

Anyway, the resolution is really decent for the phone, and although it's not as high as that of the F700, the F700 has positively anemic storage. It has an onboard flash drive with 64MB capacity with the option of a MicroSD expansion which will no doubt drive the price up just a tad. I read somewhere that the Prada phone will not only be more expensive than the iPhone, it will be more expensive by almost, if not over $100, which makes it a big ripoff. So far these other phones are licked in terms of initial storage capacity. 4-8GB of storage is not common amongst these types of phones, and anyone familiar with purchasing those tiny flash cards knows they don't come cheap. As for the camera, 2 MP is not great, but since I also own a digital camera I couldn't care less. Seriously, who cares about having near pro quality on a cell phone digicam.

cwedl
Feb 13, 2007, 02:15 PM
Whilst many people will probably buy these "cheap imitations", it would be nice to see another company trying to innovate, instead of just relying on Apple for their Research and Development. At the end of the day, Windows Mobile Sucks (I haven't tried Windows Mobile 6 though! - but it doesn't look that nice), Apple looks as if they have got a winner, And I will be a customer for sure, when the iPhone is released in the UK.

MacFly123
Feb 13, 2007, 02:18 PM
I'm sorry, there is no way Apple ripped off the Prada phone. Apple has been working on the iPhone for 2 years.

I'll also add that I'm not at all surprised with the shameless rip off atempts of the iPhone. Don't any of these companies have any pride? Why can't other people innovate and come up with their own ideas instead of just trying to ride Apple's genious? It's really starting to piss me off!!!

jonharris200
Feb 13, 2007, 02:19 PM
I couldnt believe the iphones similarities to the prada LG....

Side by side comparison, anyone?

Kobushi
Feb 13, 2007, 02:21 PM
As usual, companies trying to stay afloat in Apple's wake of innovation. "Look at us, we can do that too".

No, no, you can't.

andiwm2003
Feb 13, 2007, 02:24 PM
seems that reinventing the phone and entering the smart phone market isn't as easy as apple had thought.:p

now we have to wait and see if the ipod and the touch screen in the iphone are enough to make people pay $599 and choose it over the competition.

at least there is hope that apples software integration and ease of use makes the phone better than the competitors offers.

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 13, 2007, 02:24 PM
I'm just flabbergasted that the tards at LG can b*tch and moan about a phone whose form factor is taken directly from the iPod. The iPhone shape is simply a more rounded translation of the iPod fifth generation. The entire face of the device is just a touch screen, and mimics the UI of no one. The rest of the device is simply a brushed aluminum iPod shell. It even has the proprietary cable port and headphone jack in the exact same places. everything else is just a chrome bezel around the face plate. I see no similarities other than the point of input being expanded across the fascia, which is not a copyright, at least not on this planet.

andiwm2003
Feb 13, 2007, 02:26 PM
I'm sorry, there is no way Apple ripped off the Prada phone. Apple has been working on the iPhone for 2 years.

I'll also add that I'm not at all surprised with the shameless rip off atempts of the iPhone. Don't any of these companies have any pride? Why can't other people innovate and come up with their own ideas instead of just trying to ride Apple's genious? It's really starting to piss me off!!!


the other phones have been in development long before apples iphone was shown. so it's not necessarily shamless rippoffs. get real. it's just that other engineers are just as good as apples.

nukiduz
Feb 13, 2007, 02:29 PM
i am more excited about samsung f700 than about iphone. however, steve got me at scrolling...

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 13, 2007, 02:30 PM
I don't think other touch screen phones are any sort of ripoff of Apple's iPhone. The only differentiation is in the multitouch, though not an invention of their own, is rare in consumer electronic implementation. Full faced touch screens on phones was inevitable. Touch screen PDA's could've told us that. The iPhone is basically a touch screen iPod with a phone built in, and while this is not completely unique, it's not a blatant copy of anyone else either.

I was interested in the F700 until I found out how much storage it has. In order to take advantage of the screen, you have to purchase an extra memory card.

TheBobcat
Feb 13, 2007, 02:33 PM
We consider that Apple copycat Prada phone after the design was unveiled...


For some reason I can really envision them saying that quote exactly like that, in their headquarters, with like a really heavy accent.

Then singing the I'm So Lonely song from Team America!!!!

Object-X
Feb 13, 2007, 02:38 PM
There are rip offs and then there are logical designs based on technology limitations. The iPhone and the LG phone represent the latter. A rectangle all touch phone is a basic idea. Anyone could and would come up with that. Square buttons are the byproduct of touch screen technology. It's the obvious choice for a finger press.

But the iPhone is far more advanced in terms of it's design and functionality than the LG phone, it makes their claim seem stupid. It's obvious to everyone that Apple had to have been working on this for years. And they couldn't have just ripped the interface since it is so tied into the underlying technology.

I imagined a phone like this years ago, but never thought it would be made. Especially when you look at the current generation phones. I couldn't believe my eyes when I watched Jobs' demo. It truely is years ahead of anything else, including LGs phone.

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 13, 2007, 02:42 PM
While I may never purchase an iPhone (it's a lifestyle phone, which happens to contradict my lifestyle), I'm very interested to see how Apple applies the tech used in their phone to their other products, namely the iPod video and possibly laptops.

miketcool
Feb 13, 2007, 02:45 PM
Yeah, ok?

I think it is safe to say this is the thing the iPhone was copied after:

http://daapspace4.daap.uc.edu/~wiglemd/apple.jpg

spicyapple
Feb 13, 2007, 02:46 PM
iPhones have sync compatibility with iTunes, although by the time it ships in June, Apple would need to release a Windows version of Apple Mail, iCal and Address Book. Apple's legendary ease of use and simplicity will guarantee it's superiority against these competitors.

Could we be seeing a brand new iPhone management app from Apple? :)

gloss
Feb 13, 2007, 02:50 PM
That Meizu lookalike is hilarious. I don't think China has had an original industrial thought in 50 years.

miketcool
Feb 13, 2007, 02:50 PM
Could we be seeing a brand new iPhone management app from Apple? :)

What Apple really needs is a copyright lawsuit management app.

iLife, iWork and iClaim:cool:

Porco
Feb 13, 2007, 02:51 PM
Plastic front, metal back.. er iPod circa 2001 no? I'm not sure what else the iPhone was supposed to look like if it's classed as an iPod.

50548
Feb 13, 2007, 02:53 PM
Nobody will get close to replicating Apple's intuitive UI. They may have touch-screen abilities but that doesn't make them iPhones.

The funniest thing is that they all think that touchscreen means multi-touch...even more ironic is the fact that all those "pioneers" only appeared after Apple once more dictated how the phone market will be in the next months...they are all borndead to Apple, which leads technology and UI like no one else.

domtarOpaque
Feb 13, 2007, 02:54 PM
Now everyone that makes a black faced phone with a touchscreen is going to cry lawsuit. This is all just to gain publicity for thier phones because they can't compare to Apple's marketing and street appeal.

Analog Kid
Feb 13, 2007, 02:56 PM
This is where Cingular exclusivity starts to hurt... If it's almost as good as an iPhone, and you can keep your existing carrier then why not buy the clone?

Mobile handset companies have a ton of resources and they're used to cut-throat competition-- it really won't take long for them to get something out the door to compete.

50548
Feb 13, 2007, 02:58 PM
Whilst many people will probably buy these "cheap imitations", it would be nice to see another company trying to innovate, instead of just relying on Apple for their Research and Development. At the end of the day, Windows Mobile Sucks (I haven't tried Windows Mobile 6 though! - but it doesn't look that nice), Apple looks as if they have got a winner, And I will be a customer for sure, when the iPhone is released in the UK.

Ditto for me in Switzerland...it's a done deal...and it's gonna be for millions more, despite its fairly high price...the iPhone is just 1000 years ahead of any other phone.

archosage
Feb 13, 2007, 02:58 PM
It's all coincidence that they are all so similar, soon in a few years all phones will bear resemblence of the iPhonesque design (smaller too). Phones like this don't take a few weeks to develop.

Mobile technology has been moving in this direction. Don't worry though, a lot of the iPhone look-a-likes are not going to be in the US, like the F700, their marketbases are in Asia and Europe, places which Apple still has a smaller base.

Either way, the Apple is definitely encouraging more innovation in other companies, and the direction of Mobiles is very exciting.

Voidness
Feb 13, 2007, 02:58 PM
The clone, however, does offer a higher resolution screen (720x480)
Sweet! That's the kind of screen I'd like to see on the future iPhone :)

Finally TelecomsKorea reports (http://www.telecomskorea.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=5074&Itemid=42) that LG officials believe that the iPhone is a copy of their Prada phone, which was shown 3 months before the iPhone's announcement.
Someone's getting jealous... :p

xenotaku
Feb 13, 2007, 02:59 PM
hell, that miniOne looks better than the iPhone. In design that is, the OS of the iPhone will be better, but the miniOne looks to have a user-faced camera AND a replaceable battery!

Sandfleaz
Feb 13, 2007, 03:06 PM
ahhh .....the sincerest form of flattery! :D

the vj
Feb 13, 2007, 03:09 PM
Well, just look how long took to the others to copy the iPhone. Way too similar. If you have the technology already all you need is to give it a shape, enough time for Apple to do it.

You have to consider too that the iPhone still under production, so, what we saw at the keynote was a barelly usable demo version that can be created in 3 months for shure. I reapeat, the real phone still yet to come so that Apple got the idea from LG can apply perfectly.

RichP
Feb 13, 2007, 03:16 PM
LG and Samsung have not had a truly well designed and original product..umm..yet. These things are all full-screen touchscreen devices, how diferent could they possibly look?

I will say this:
Apples UI is going to blow these things away.
The quality of the Apple phone will be higher.

And that Miezu miniOne isnt even an operational prototype! Jst look carefully at the images. Umm yeah..RichP enterprises is entering the phone market next week, with mePhoneHD. 1920x1200 resolution, Core Quadro processor, and removeable hydrogen fuel-cell.

ready2switch
Feb 13, 2007, 03:16 PM
How different can two phones with an entire touch screen face look from each other? :rolleyes:

Exactly. And as was stressed before, it's the multi-touch that makes the iPhone innovative.

ShakingPaper
Feb 13, 2007, 03:18 PM
""If it's almost as good as an iPhone, and you can keep your existing carrier then why not buy the clone?""

Is there another phone on the market with 4-8 gigs of storage - No, with multi touch screen patented tech - No, running anything close to OS X with Widgets - No, with true iTunes - No, with this kind of advanced web browser - No, with this kind of photo archiving and displaying - No, that plays movies and TV shows...in Widescreen - No, that lets you choose which order to listen to your VM - No, with multiple text messaging sessions - No, that is an Apple - NO.

mikeinternet
Feb 13, 2007, 03:24 PM
this is the obvious design of any entirely touch based device. for the most part we are talking about a rectangle? what is any other product remotely similar going to do??

the more choices the better. i know which one i'm buying. but hopefully this will push apple to keep making these better and to give us the features we know are out there (2nd cam for video chat more megapixels, GPS, more drive, more battery, thinner, 3rd party apps....)

Poff
Feb 13, 2007, 03:24 PM
This market is a lot more competitive than the mp3-market (as we can see), and I hope Apple will get rid of their habit of releasing products with sub-standard technologies. Yeah, the UI is great, but if I can get a phone with 3mpix camera, higher resolution screen and 3G for the same price, then I don't know if Apple will be the one I'm choosing. I guess the camera is the deal-breaker for me, as I'm eager to get rid of my Canon and use mobile only. And a 2mpix cam won't do much for me there.. :/ (not a 3mpix btw. But there are phones with 5mpix on the european market, and at least 8 on the Korean market)

Well, just look how long took to the others to copy the iPhone. Way too similar. If you have the technology already all you need is to give it a shape, enough time for Apple to do it.

You have to consider too that the iPhone still under production, so, what we saw at the keynote was a barelly usable demo version that can be created in 3 months for shure. I reapeat, the real phone still yet to come so that Apple got the idea from LG can apply perfectly.

The Apple phone was not a prototype, and the one in the keynote was not "barely usable". The reason we have to wait for it to come out, is that it needs FCC-approvement. The phone is ready. Created. Finished. Only software flaws can be corrected now.

mainstreetmark
Feb 13, 2007, 03:29 PM
I bet all those so-called 'clones' are an open platform and you can write your own applications for them. That's nearly worth more than multi-touch to me.

And, as stated, how many different ways can a slim box with a touchscreen face be designed?

chubad
Feb 13, 2007, 03:30 PM
Cool! Another iPhone thread. :(
When are we going to see some announcements not iPhone or iPod related?
I'm going into withdrawal. Help! :apple: :D

Elrond39
Feb 13, 2007, 03:33 PM
This market is a lot more competitive than the mp3-market (as we can see), and I hope Apple will get rid of their habit of releasing products with sub-standard technologies. Yeah, the UI is great, but if I can get a phone with 3mpix camera, higher resolution screen and 3G for the same price, then I don't know if Apple will be the one I'm choosing. I guess the camera is the deal-breaker for me, as I'm eager to get rid of my Canon and use mobile only. And a 2mpix cam won't do much for me there.. :/ (not a 3mpix btw. But there are phones with 5mpix on the european market, and at least 8 on the Korean market)

That's just the mega-pixel myth talking. Throwing in more MP isn't going to improve the camera, you realize that, right? It's about the quality of the sensor, and the relation between sensor size and MP count. Cramming 5MP onto such a small sensor will only result in significantly larger photos with a similar quality of 2MP. In other words, take a picture with a 2MP camera, and increase the size to what a 5MP camera would produce. Bad image quality is all you're getting. Well, and a bigger picture, so you can see the noise better. :D

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 13, 2007, 03:33 PM
I wonder if widgets will open up the iPhone in a way for third party development.

Georgie
Feb 13, 2007, 03:34 PM
Generally speaking, all this competition is a good thing. It will force Apple to rapidly upgrade the iPhone hardware. Hopefully by the time it's released it will have at least a 3 megapixel camera, and within one model refresh a higher resolution screen, more memory and GPS. That's what I'm dreaming for anyway. Then the iPhone will rock not only the user interface, which is swell, but the hardware capabilities too. And then I'll be willing to plonk down $600.

I just hope they have a lab working on miracle batteries too. Though I don't know the relationship between size and battery life (beyond those variables being directly related), I'd take a thicker iPhone with a longer battery life. The thing looks super thin in photos, but that won't matter much if the battery runs down quickly.

mick4394
Feb 13, 2007, 03:35 PM
I love reading all of these posts talking about how great "multi-touch" is. How many of you guys have actually used it? Zero.

I like Apple computers and iPods as much as the next guy, but I don't believe that something is the greatest thing ever just because Steve Jobs says so. Until I see otherwise, I will not believe that a touch screen is a viable replacement for a full qwerty keyboard, no matter who manufactures it.

Georgie
Feb 13, 2007, 03:37 PM
That's just the mega-pixel myth talking. Throwing in more MP isn't going to improve the camera, you realize that, right? It's about the quality of the sensor, and the relation between sensor size and MP count. Cramming 5MP onto such a small sensor will only result in significantly larger photos with a similar quality of 2MP. In other words, take a picture with a 2MP camera, and increase the size to what a 5MP camera would produce. Bad image quality is all you're getting. Well, and a bigger picture, so you can see the noise better. :D

What we want is a 3 megapixel camera then, with a better sensor too. It's not like the market is stagnant.

Elrond39
Feb 13, 2007, 03:39 PM
What we want is a 3 megapixel camera then, with a better sensor too. It's not like the market is stagnant.

There you go. Be more specific with your wishlist. ;)

True, though, the market isn't stagnant. And we have Apple to thank for their "swift-kick-in-the-pants" style and adding some seriously new technology. Less stagnation, more innovation!

fawlty
Feb 13, 2007, 03:41 PM
How can Meizu present a phone with an Internet Explorer icon and expect us to keep a straight face?

Abstract
Feb 13, 2007, 03:42 PM
the other phones have been in development long before apples iphone was shown. so it's not necessarily shamless rippoffs. get real. it's just that other engineers are just as good as apples.

It didn't take the other guys 2 years to design what is essentially a shell and a slightly different take on the basic phone OS.

The iPhone's OS and everything regarding its use is different from the rest.

The reason so many touch-screen phones are coming out so quickly is because everyone was probably thinking about doing it. However, you can see how they just quickly churned out a touchscreen phone just to be out ahead of the iPhone. What they did was "physically" similar, if you're talking about components and such. It was too difficult to rip off the OS, so they just quickly put together a phone with a touchscreen. Too bad none of them offer an OS that's unique in any way. They just created a touchscreen phone, but without the OS to go along with it. Why bother having a touchscreen phone when the "purpose" behind including one isn't there? If the OS isn't significantly different, it would never take any real advantage of the touchscreen feature anyway.

Arcady
Feb 13, 2007, 03:46 PM
The Prada phone has "send" and "end" buttons on it. What is this, 1989? :p

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 13, 2007, 03:47 PM
Why oh why should anyone truly care about the mega pixel capacity of a cell phone's built in camera? If it's clear enough to show at least moderate detail with decent resolution I'm pretty much satisfied. After all, it's just a phone, not my digital camera replacement. All a cell phone's camera is good for is the same thing we use iSights and other webcams for. They're for small relatively lower quality pictures that are esentially disposable email stuffers. If I want to take hi-res shots of something I'll invest in a proper camera, not a cell phone.

The reason why multitouch matters is that it makes it possible for soft-press QWERTY keypads. Since other screens only allow for single point input at a time it wouldn't be possible to perform alternate key functions, such as shift to use a different symbol with the same key. Scoff if you will, but this is a step forward, and it seriously simplifies the hardware package, since it means no sliding/moving parts that eventually wear with use.

AppleMan101
Feb 13, 2007, 03:51 PM
I've found where they all copied the design from...
.
...
.....
...
.
The Acer n35....
http://www.fm-i.de/de/downloads/Acern35_400dpiRGB_Bildschirm.jpg

jonharris200
Feb 13, 2007, 03:52 PM
What! Has the iPhone rumour been confirmed then...?!

gerlitzappel
Feb 13, 2007, 03:59 PM
I did see the Prada phone when it came out then the iphone. I couldnt believe the iphones similarities to the prada LG....

Just posing a dumb question but what if the iphone isnt the final design....and it was just another mock up?

I would love to see the features enhanced by the time of release. With all of these look alikes being anounced, it would be awesome if Apple trumped them all in June!

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 13, 2007, 04:01 PM
I've found where they all copied the design from...
.
...
.....
...
.
The Acer n35....
http://www.fm-i.de/de/downloads/Acern35_400dpiRGB_Bildschirm.jpg

Lol and Acer copied that from the Dell Axim. :p

jhedges3
Feb 13, 2007, 04:04 PM
I’m planning on making my own iPhone thanks to this pdf (http://www.sneakmove.com/images/diy_iphone.pdf).

Here is one being worked on:

http://www.sneakmove.com/uploaded_images/diyiphone02-741318.jpg

Poff
Feb 13, 2007, 04:06 PM
That's just the mega-pixel myth talking. Throwing in more MP isn't going to improve the camera, you realize that, right? It's about the quality of the sensor, and the relation between sensor size and MP count. Cramming 5MP onto such a small sensor will only result in significantly larger photos with a similar quality of 2MP. In other words, take a picture with a 2MP camera, and increase the size to what a 5MP camera would produce. Bad image quality is all you're getting. Well, and a bigger picture, so you can see the noise better. :D

As with everything, it might be a good idea to look at tests and buy the product that actually produces good pictures. Some phone cameras have both, high resolution and good quality. Others have none. low resolution and bad quality. But a low resolution good quality cam will never look good if you want bigger than standard pictures on your wall.

cbud
Feb 13, 2007, 04:11 PM
This market is a lot more competitive than the mp3-market (as we can see), and I hope Apple will get rid of their habit of releasing products with sub-standard technologies. Yeah, the UI is great, but if I can get a phone with 3mpix camera, higher resolution screen and 3G for the same price, then I don't know if Apple will be the one I'm choosing. I guess the camera is the deal-breaker for me, as I'm eager to get rid of my Canon and use mobile only. And a 2mpix cam won't do much for me there.. :/ (not a 3mpix btw. But there are phones with 5mpix on the european market, and at least 8 on the Korean market)

Don't expect a lens the size of a pencil eraser to give you the quality photographs your cannon lens does, no matter how many mega pixels it has.

3G a deal breaker? Yeah 3G is faster, but how many cities actually have it right now? Also, how many cell phones come with Wi-Fi? Wi-Fi is the deal-maker for me.

Has anybody heard anything about the iPhone’s video recording ability? Does anybody think it would be possible for it to record in h.264?

Poff
Feb 13, 2007, 04:12 PM
After all, it's just a phone, not my digital camera replacement.

A handful of the new phones in korea and japan have cameras that surpass a lot of good digital cameras when it comes to image quality.

Don't expect a lens the size of a pencil eraser to give you the quality photographs your cannon lens does, no matter how many mega pixels it has.

3G a deal breaker? Yeah 3G is faster, but how many cities actually have it right now? Also, how many cell phones come with Wi-Fi? Wi-Fi is the deal-maker for me.

Has anybody heard anything about the iPhone’s video recording ability? Does anybody think it would be possible for it to record in h.264?

We have 3G "everywhere" here. But I understand it's not so popular in the US. As I said above, some mobile cams do get very good pictures indeed. For someone who's not so picky, there are even mobile phones sold in Europe and the US that take perfectly good pictures.

Clive At Five
Feb 13, 2007, 04:17 PM
I have the worst phone in the history of phones. The Nokia 3100 (http://www.nokiausa.com/phones/3100) (it was free with the family plan, okay?).

Anyway, when I select "menu," I am brought to a screen that looks very similar to that of the iPhone's. The only difference (aside from different "applications") is that I use the keypad to navigate.

It looks sort of like this (but cheaper):

http://www.siamphone.com/review/2006/nokia/3250/image/menu/02.jpg

How different is that from the iPhone?

Not much.

I agree with those who say that the home screens of the LG Prada and the iPhone are the natural progression of cell phone UIs.

I also agree with those who say that the multi-touch, advanced applications, and syncability are going to set the iPhone apart from the rest.

I additionally agree, however, with those who see Apple's partnership with Cingular potentially damaging. Ignorant fools, like those who would buy a Zune, will buy the LG or Samsung. It's a shame that Apple is forcing us to pick sides on the cell phone carrier wars.

-Clive

Gosh
Feb 13, 2007, 04:18 PM
My year 2000 Palm m100 has a touch interface if I use my little finger - doesn't make it a freaking iPhone!

Eventually most phones and MP3 players will resemble a - screen!

The sophistication will be the functionality the OS and it's human interface! After how may years has anyone really caught the ipod?

cbud
Feb 13, 2007, 04:24 PM
iPhones have sync compatibility with iTunes, although by the time it ships in June, Apple would need to release a Windows version of Apple Mail, iCal and Address Book. Apple's legendary ease of use and simplicity will guarantee it's superiority against these competitors.

Could we be seeing a brand new iPhone management app from Apple? :)

This is a good point. How is iTunes going to sync with all the different e-mail, calendar, and address programs found on a PC and still work seamlessly?


Finally a phone that will sync my iCal categories!

Stella
Feb 13, 2007, 04:26 PM
ROTFL.

Some of the initial posts are a hoot!

"Apple didn't rip off other manufacturers"...
( which I agree with, due to development time )

But if another phone immediately ( give or take a few months ) comes AFTER iPhone, then Company X has ripped off the iPhone, or is an iPhone clone - never that the iPhone is a clone of another!! I'm pointing out the double standards going on...

Just to give some open minded perspectiveness:

""If it's almost as good as an iPhone, and you can keep your existing carrier then why not buy the clone?""

Is there another phone on the market with 4-8 gigs of storage - No, with multi touch screen patented tech - No, running anything close to OS X with Widgets - No, with true iTunes - No, with this kind of advanced web browser - No, with this kind of photo archiving and displaying - No, that plays movies and TV shows...in Widescreen - No, that lets you choose which order to listen to your VM - No, with multiple text messaging sessions - No, that is an Apple - NO.

- there are phones with:
* 4gig of memory! YES
* OSX like Widgets!! YES ( Yahoo mobile client for Symbian )
* Advanced Web browsers - YES
* Plays movies and TV in wide screen - YES ( including DivX etc )
* Photo displaying - YES
* As nice GUI - No! ( ofc not!, yet )

You could look at it the other way -

Does iPhone have :
- open platform development for 3rd party developers ? No
- GPS? - No
- Expandable memory / removable memory ? No
- Subsidized by carriers - thus cheaper - No!
- 3G support? No!
- non-exclusivity - No
- *user replaceable* batteries - indications are NO (iPod battery is not designed to be user replaceable as a comparison)
- built in radio - No
- Blackberry messaging compatible - No ( customers use this too )
- Video recording camera - No? ( some one confirm )
- Good quality built in ( > 2MP ) camera with flash? No
- VOIP - No
- Speed dial - No ? ( someone confirm )


Oh, and don't tell me that any features that iPhone lacks is an indication that other phones have unnecessary functionality leading to bloat!!!!

cbud
Feb 13, 2007, 04:32 PM
We have 3G "everywhere" here. But I understand it's not so popular in the US. As I said above, some mobile cams do get very good pictures indeed. For someone who's not so picky, there are even mobile phones sold in Europe and the US that take perfectly good pictures.

When will Europe get the iPhone? It will probably have 3G by then.

I agree, some cell phones take great pictures and hopefully the iPhone will too. I just think people rely way too much on mega-pixels for measuring camera quality when the lens is the most important thing.

MrCrowbar
Feb 13, 2007, 04:34 PM
""If it's almost as good as an iPhone, and you can keep your existing carrier then why not buy the clone?""

Is there another phone on the market with 4-8 gigs of storage - No, with multi touch screen patented tech - No, running anything close to OS X with Widgets - No, with true iTunes - No, with this kind of advanced web browser - No, with this kind of photo archiving and displaying - No, that plays movies and TV shows...in Widescreen - No, that lets you choose which order to listen to your VM - No, with multiple text messaging sessions - No, that is an Apple - NO.

Thank You! My thoughts exactly. People tend to look at the hardware specs and, and that's it. Macs may be more expensive than PCs with similar specs (except when the Mac gets updated, then it's cheaper than comparable PCs but does not get updated every few weeks) but you get lots of free stuff you would have to pay for with windows: iLife, an imaging tool (disk utility), tons of developer tools free of charge (how expensive is a Visual Studio License?) etc.

The iPhone is not done yet, who knows, we might get some cool stuff that Steve did not tell us about yet.

PD: the iPod sucks big time when you compare it to other players on a hardware level. But it's so nice how it just works, syncs with iTunes, gets all the music, pictures and contacts I have on my computer automatically. And yea, there are so many accessories for it out there. Did I mention it looks pretty? My black nano is pretty beat up already, the sharp edges got dents and you see the bare metal because I just put it in my jeans pocket or in my wallet without a "protective case" around it. The screen is still unscratched the cickwheel is tho...

Poff
Feb 13, 2007, 04:37 PM
When will Europe get the iPhone? It will probably have 3G by then.

I agree, some cell phones take great pictures and hopefully the iPhone will too. I just think people rely way too much on mega-pixels for measuring camera quality when the lens is the most important thing.

aswell as the image processor. 2mpix will work fine for your 5x4inch photos, but if you want them 16x12inch 2mpix will be very grainy.

cbud
Feb 13, 2007, 04:41 PM
ROTFL.

Some of the initial posts are a hoot!

"Apple didn't rip off other manufacturers"...
( which I agree with, due to development time )

But if another phone immediately ( give or take a few months ) comes AFTER iPhone, then Company X has ripped off the iPhone!!!

- there are phones with 4gig of memory! YES
- there are phones with OSX like Widgets!! YES ( Yahoo mobile client for Symbian )
- Advanced Web browsers - YES
- Plays movies and TV in wide screen - YES
- Photo displaying - YES
-

"Is there another phone on the market with 4-8 gigs of storage - No, with multi touch screen patented tech - No, running anything close to OS X with Widgets - No, with true iTunes - No, with this kind of advanced web browser - No, with this kind of photo archiving and displaying - No, that plays movies and TV shows...in Widescreen - No, that lets you choose which order to listen to your VM - No, with multiple text messaging sessions - No, that is an Apple - NO."

You could look at it the other way -
Does iPhone have :
- open platform development for 3rd party developers ? No
- GPS? - No
- Expandable memory / removable memory ? No
- Subsidized by carriers - thus cheaper - No!



Does iPhone have non-exclusivity - No
Does iPhone have

It is not that they necessarily rip off Apple, its that they try to hitch a ride on Apple's publicity.

I have owned many cell phones. They have had large memory, played movies, did e-mail, linked to a GPS, recorded video...but they all were not very good at it.

I say let every company make a touch screen phone, but I know only Apple will make it actually work.

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 13, 2007, 04:43 PM
A handful of the new phones in korea and japan have cameras that surpass a lot of good digital cameras when it comes to image quality.

No cell phone is going to beat my Rebel SLR. Not by a long shot. :p I imagine image quality will increase, but given the nature of the device it's attached to it's really not a big deal.

With regards to removable memory, this really ISN'T a plus if one feels they must add more memory to their already expensive phone. Having a lack of memory expansion when one already has 4-8GB on hand as standard is really a non-issue.

Stella
Feb 13, 2007, 04:44 PM
It is not that they necessarily rip off Apple, its that they try to hitch a ride on Apple's publicity.

I have owned many cell phones. They have had large memory, played movies, did e-mail, linked to a GPS, recorded video...but they all were not very good at it.

I say let every company make a touch screen phone, but I know only Apple will make it actually work.

Your first sentence - yes, true - that is definitely more the truth than what others have said.

Second - Thats a bit subjective, since my phone does all of those well - except its lacking GPS. So - thats down to personal experience.

Apple definitely know how to make a good UI. No doubts about that!!

alansky
Feb 13, 2007, 04:50 PM
Imagine what would happen if BMW designed a new sports car and Saturn responded by building an exact duplicate (superficially, at least). They'd be ridiculed by the automotive press! But in the electronics industry, anything goes. The prevalence of shameless copycatting is truly shocking!

Nemesis
Feb 13, 2007, 04:51 PM
Ditto for me in Switzerland...it's a done deal...and it's gonna be for millions more, despite its fairly high price...the iPhone is just 1000 years ahead of any other phone.

People simply don't realise that iPhone is not the phone.
It's something else. It's an iPod, a portable video player, a computer, a communication device, a Star Trek tricorder, wireless device that connects with the mainframe (your supercomputer at home) and does all great things for you.

Other guys are just producing cheap plastic phones, which are painful to use anyway. Nothing else.

xenotaku
Feb 13, 2007, 04:52 PM
Im not buying an iPhone until the battery is replaceable. Spending 500-600 on a phone that will loose its charge in a year or so is a joke. :mad:

Georgie
Feb 13, 2007, 04:52 PM
Why oh why should anyone truly care about the mega pixel capacity of a cell phone's built in camera? If it's clear enough to show at least moderate detail with decent resolution I'm pretty much satisfied. After all, it's just a phone, not my digital camera replacement.

I agree. I just happen to think that 3 megapixels is around the sweet spot for every day, social, good-enough-quality use. Yes, I'd rather a relatively high-quality 2 megapixel image than a poor quality 5 megapixel image, but ideally I'd like a high quality 3 megapixel image. That'd be just about right (for now anyway, until I have that and decide I want more).

I don't expect my camera phone images to look like a Nikon D40, sheesh, no not even an SD800, but it's not unreasonable to expect quality to improve with time (or rather as new products are developed). The images produced by my Moto E815 look terrible, just awful. I think I remember reading that the cameras on NASA's Mars rovers have 1 megapixel sensors, and they take fantastic images because the sensor is so high quality (though NASA is also probably stitching together the images into larger frames here on Earth). That's an extreme example, but Fuji has come up with neat technology, which they've put in their new Finepix cameras, that significantly reduces noise without significantly increasing the sensor size. The Fuji Finepix F30 produces a pretty nice photo at ISO 800 (w/o flash), and ISO 1600 is even usable in a pinch. It seems like that technology makes good sense for a camera phone.

bloodycape
Feb 13, 2007, 04:56 PM
That Meizu lookalike is hilarious. I don't think China has had an original industrial thought in 50 years.

It may look funny but its 3G capability, removable battery and a solid 3rd party support isn't.


with this kind of advanced web browser - No, that plays movies and TV shows...in Widescreen, No, with multiple text messaging sessions

Actually the iphone isn't true wide-screen from what I have read. I know there are some HTC device that offer this similar wide screen resolution of the iphone so that would be a yes. I could do multiple text message sessions on my Treo 650 that came out a few years back and it is one of the rare things Palm actually did right. And since Palm introduced the 750 also has the feature(only device that has it from factory). Then some smart developers/hackers copied that feature so it can work on an WM phone, so it is sorta no longer a Palm exclusive. So that another yes. I dunno know about you but Opera mobile is fairly advance browser and can do a lot things. But, then again it is yet to be seen how real advance Safari for the iPhone can be.

cbud
Feb 13, 2007, 04:58 PM
Your first sentence - yes, true - that is definitely more the truth than what others have said.

Second - Thats a bit subjective, since my phone does all of those well - except its lacking GPS. So - thats down to personal experience.

Apple definitely know how to make a good UI. No doubts about that!!

I agree, it does them 'well', but not great. My Nokia 6682 does many things well and I am merely satisfied. If your phone does all of those things to your satisfaction then fine. I guess I expect more from my phone.

I don't want to be satisfied, I want to be amazed, I want to get goose bumps when I use it.

twoodcc
Feb 13, 2007, 05:03 PM
Nobody will get close to replicating Apple's intuitive UI. They may have touch-screen abilities but that doesn't make them iPhones.

i agree. i'm not worried about the lookalikes. Apple and the iPhone will be fine

Poff
Feb 13, 2007, 05:05 PM
No cell phone is going to beat my Rebel SLR. Not by a long shot. :p

Of course. Mobile phone cams will never beat the image quality of an SLR. But a consumer-camera..? I think so.

iShak
Feb 13, 2007, 05:06 PM
how else is one supposed to make a rectangle touch screen phone with no buttons?

if you round the corners (samsung) you are copying apple
if you dont round the corners (LG) you are copying apple

i say even the automobile industry isn't innovative then, for the last 40 years all they have come up with are 4 wheels and a body (minus reliant) ..huh copy cats!

cbud
Feb 13, 2007, 05:06 PM
Im not buying an iPhone until the battery is replaceable. Spending 500-600 on a phone that will loose its charge in a year or so is a joke. :mad:

Then you will never buy one.

My 2G iPod (2002) battery still holds a charge and will play for about 3 hours.

Apple stores are popping up everywhere now. I won't mind walking in to one in a year or two after purchase and paying $50 to get a new battery.

Georgie
Feb 13, 2007, 05:11 PM
"Apple didn't rip off other manufacturers"...
( which I agree with, due to development time ) But if another phone immediately ( give or take a few months ) comes AFTER iPhone, then Company X has ripped off the iPhone, or is an iPhone clone - never that the iPhone is a clone of another!! I'm pointing out the double standards going on...

If you want to talk about double standards, let's talk about virtualization. Microsoft is demonized by the Mac community for stipulating in their user agreement that only the higher end versions of Vista may be virtualized. However they're not given credit for even allowing virtualization. Apple will not. There's no absolute technical reason why OS X can't be virtualized a la Vista (though it may be more difficult with Core Animation, etc.), only that Apple says you may not do it. So for the sake of fairness, we should all turn around and scorn Apple too.

(In my defence, I dislike Microsoft as much as the next guy: I'm a recent switcher and I tell everyone I know to get a Mac if they have any choice at all. But I'm just sayin...)

Poff
Feb 13, 2007, 05:11 PM
A battery normally costs half the price of a newer, more powerful phone anyways.. I've never heard of a single person buying a new battery. But they are in stores, so someone must be buying them..

Georgie
Feb 13, 2007, 05:12 PM
the lens is the most important thing.

You can take some pretty nice photos with a pinhole camera. Amazing depth of field.

Sorry, I'm just being contrarian now.

Poff
Feb 13, 2007, 05:13 PM
If you want to talk about double standards, let's talk about virtualization. Microsoft is demonized by the Mac community for stipulating in their user agreement that only the higher end versions of Vista may be virtualized. However they're not given credit for even allowing virtualization. Apple will not. There's no absolute technical reason why OS X can't be virtualized a la Vista (though it may be more difficult with Core Animation, etc.), only that Apple says you may not do it. So for the sake of fairness, we should all turn around and scorn Apple too.

(In my defence, I dislike Microsoft as much as the next guy: I'm a recent switcher and I tell everyone I know to get a Mac if they have any choice at all. But I'm just sayin...)

People are trying. A lot of people are trying. But noone have made it yet. They've managed to start Darwin, but not OS X.

cbud
Feb 13, 2007, 05:15 PM
Of course. Mobile phone cams will never beat the image quality of an SLR. But a consumer-camera..? I think so.

What about optical zoom? Most consumer cameras have 3 to 10X optical zooms. That won't happen on a phone.

Phone cameras are good and are going to get better. For some people, that is all they will need. But I think most people who are somewhat serious about photography will not be relying on their cell phone (no matter how good) to take pictures of their kids, vacations, etc.

Poff
Feb 13, 2007, 05:16 PM
What about optical zoom? Most consumer cameras have 3 to 10X optical zooms. That won't happen on a phone.

Phone cameras are good and are going to get better. For some people, that is all they will need. But I think most people who are somewhat serious about photography will not be relying on their cell phone (no matter how good) to take pictures of their kids, vacations, etc.

you have 3x optical zoom on several phones now. Problem with seriousness is most people aren't really that serious about photography.. If it looks good, it's good. :)

bloodycape
Feb 13, 2007, 05:17 PM
A handful of the new phones in korea and japan have cameras that surpass a lot of good digital cameras when it comes to image quality.

Yeah just look at some the new sony ericsson phones, they have phones that are 3.2meg and supposedly take pictures that equal many of their low end digital cameras and this on their Walkman and Symbian series phones. I don't think it would have been to hard for Apple to do this. Also we have 3G in a lot of cities here. It is just that Cingular does not offer it. It is Verizon and Sprint that have the better coverage.

bilbo--baggins
Feb 13, 2007, 05:18 PM
There is no way Apple would copy a design by LG. It's more likely that they would design it so that it didn't look like other products. Any similarities are purely down to necessity of design when creating a phone with a touchscreen that fills the front.

For anyone that's familiar with the similarities between certain Rover and Jaguar cars, it would be like Rover claiming that Jaguar had copied their design...

KindredMAC
Feb 13, 2007, 05:18 PM
I was worried about this type of thing in the cell phone market. You can have no names knocking your designs off left and right and there never seems to have been any recourse over it.

Apple might be a 2 ton great white in the computing world for innovating but in the cellphone world they are a tiny little goldfish stuck in a soup bowl of water with 50 other fish, all bigger than them.

Truly unfortunate....

davidb367
Feb 13, 2007, 05:19 PM
The iPhone is cool. Don't get me wrong.

Where Apple may take a hit is in the markets where people just want a basic cell phone. Most of Apple's patented features are used in conjunction with the web browsing, text messaging, and other advanced features that I don't want in a cell phone.

A Korean or Chinese made basic phone with just the basic cell phone features could be perfected and established before Apple can get around to making the iPhone "nano" or "mini" or whatever.

I'd love a touch screen basic cell phone that looked like the iPhone. That's all I need.

jhedges3
Feb 13, 2007, 05:20 PM
What about optical zoom? Most consumer cameras have 3 to 10X optical zooms. That won't happen on a phone.

Phone cameras are good and are going to get better. For some people, that is all they will need. But I think most people who are somewhat serious about photography will not be relying on their cell phone (no matter how good) to take pictures of their kids, vacations, etc.

Who cares about optical zoom in a phone? Maybe it will happen in time, maybe it won't.

I just don't see why it's even worth discussing things like this.

Are there things an iPhone doesn't have? Yes, of course.

Will its functionality and capabilities progress? Yes, of course.

Georgie
Feb 13, 2007, 05:22 PM
What about optical zoom? Most consumer cameras have 3 to 10X optical zooms. That won't happen on a phone.

My last post and then I must get back to work, but:

This new "origami lens" means that camera phones may indeed have optical zooms in the future, and without the telescoping lens's like Sony's high-end camera phones.

See here and here:
http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/foldedlens07.asp
http://blogs.zdnet.com/emergingtech/?p=477

bloodycape
Feb 13, 2007, 05:27 PM
Then you will never buy one.

My 2G iPod (2002) battery still holds a charge and will play for about 3 hours.

Apple stores are popping up everywhere now. I won't mind walking in to one in a year or two after purchase and paying $50 to get a new battery.

Why pay 50 for a new battery when you can pay 50 or less for a battery that extends the life of the phone by 30% or more

jhedges3
Feb 13, 2007, 05:27 PM
The iPhone is cool. Don't get me wrong.

Where Apple may take a hit is in the markets where people just want a basic cell phone. Most of Apple's patented features are used in conjunction with the web browsing, text messaging, and other advanced features that I don't want in a cell phone.

A Korean or Chinese made basic phone with just the basic cell phone features could be perfected and established before Apple can get around to making the iPhone "nano" or "mini" or whatever.

I'd love a touch screen basic cell phone that looked like the iPhone. That's all I need.

Oh. You mean that your needs (preferences) in a phone are shaping your assessment of how well the iPhone will be received among a specific target market (people who want basic phones, which is to say people like you).

And then you’re going a step further to suggest that a Korean or Chinese made basic phone, which is some how different than the thousands that already exist, could be developed in the few months that remain to really cut into that percentage of Apple’s projected market success with the iPhone.

Brilliant.

You should feel right at home in just about any of these forums about the iPhone. You’ve reached that optimal point at which you’re blending your preferences with various international dynamics and market stuff and how whoever is in charge at Apple may have forgotten this or that thing that you’ve picked up on.

I read MR for things like this.

EagerDragon
Feb 13, 2007, 05:29 PM
I look forward to all the competition the iPhone can get. Competition is good for the consumer as it speeds up the implementation of new technology and sometimes also drops the prices.

I think other companies have a tall order in trying to meet and surpasse the iPhone, specially with over 200 patents protecting the iPhone.

It will be interesting to see what the competition comes with. Hehe.

cbud
Feb 13, 2007, 05:29 PM
you have 3x optical zoom on several phones now. Problem with seriousness is most people aren't really that serious about photography.. If it looks good, it's good. :)

Yeah, I see your point now. Now that I think about it half the people I know just point and shoot.

I am not too serious about photography, but I do like to have some control. I like to zoom, control aperture, shutter. I like the wide-angle and macro lenses, and I have a couple of filters too.

Maybe as cell phone cameras get better people will stop buying low end consumer cameras and the prices of the high end SLR will drop.

Pants Dragon
Feb 13, 2007, 05:29 PM
The one thing about these stupid ripoffs that pisses me off is that they use the EXACT SAME phone icon. I mean ripping off the entire product/concept/interface is one thing, but MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN ICONS!

cbud
Feb 13, 2007, 05:32 PM
Why pay 50 for a new battery when you can pay 50 or less for a battery that extends the life of the phone by 30% or more

What?

I meant a removable battery means nothing to me when I can easily get it replaced if need be.

xenotaku
Feb 13, 2007, 05:33 PM
A battery normally costs half the price of a newer, more powerful phone anyways.. I've never heard of a single person buying a new battery. But they are in stores, so someone must be buying them..


No they dont, and for people that can't afford a new phone every two years, having a user replaceable battery is a big deal. I just bought a new battery for my Samsung Sprint phone and went from charging every night, to not having to charge for a few days for 29.99.


It's really sad that all the people on this board feel the need to defend Apple on every single decision they make. I love Apple, and even have my little Apple sticker on my car, but come on. Every single phone on the market has a user replaceable battery, and every phone that touts 'Internet Ready' coming out supports faster networks than Edge. Browsing on the net using Edge will be slower than my 28.8k modem from 10 years ago.


Lastly, I'm sorry to be blunt, but all of you complaining about them copying apple are just plain idiots. How freaking different can a touch screen be? It's thin, its rectangle, and the entire face is nothing but a screen! If anything, they are being more innovative by putting the camera on the front, letting the user buy whatever battery they want, and supporting 3G. And its not like they just whipped these things up in the last two weeks, they have probably been in development as long or nearly as long as the iPhone. There are only so many ways you can design a simplistic touch screen phone.

Lastly, whats the most important thing for a phone? Not the internet, not the UI, not the chatting....its the voice quality. As far as that goes, Apple has a lot to prove on this front. As of right now, the advantage is with Motorola and Samsung as they are veterans of the phone market. I can't believe people so blindly follow Apple that so many have already sworn to buy the product with
out even knowing how it sounds!

I will say, the new version of Windows Mobile looks like DOS compared to Apples UI for the phone. droolll...I love apple software.

Oh yeh....and there really should be a removable media slot. 4 or 8 gigs? What is that like a 10th of my ipod? WITHOUT videos?

bloodycape
Feb 13, 2007, 05:37 PM
What?

I meant a removable battery means nothing to me when I can easily get it replaced if need be.

Yes and you can just as easily get a extended battery for phones with removable batteries for around 50 bucks or less. That what I was trying to say.

jhedges3
Feb 13, 2007, 05:41 PM
I look forward to all the competition the iPhone can get. Competition is good for the consumer as it speeds up the implementation of new technology and sometimes also drops the prices.

I agree.

I've never understood why so many people on MR seem to despise competition and see copying and influence as something other than flattering.

If the iPhone is more than the sum of its parts it will sell. Why say in one sentence that you think it’s the best phone over and that that’s obvious and carry on in hyperbolae. Then in the next sentence belittle and be so alarmist and negative about another product that’s similar or that copies particular aspects of the phone.

If some consumers want a different phone that has, among other characteristics, matching icons, so what? That’s their choice and if there are such people, or such people can be projected to exist, companies will release phones that appeal to them. Why should we be critical of that?

xenotaku
Feb 13, 2007, 05:47 PM
Yes and you can just as easily get a extended battery for phones with removable batteries for around 50 bucks or less. That what I was trying to say.


Fo shiz, just bought a new battery for my Samsung for 29.99. I only have to charge my phone every few days now on a 4 year old phone!

cbud
Feb 13, 2007, 05:48 PM
No they dont, and for people that can't afford a new phone every two years, having a user replaceable battery is a big deal. I just bought a new battery for my Samsung Sprint phone and went from charging every night, to not having to charge for a few days for 29.99.


It's really sad that all the people on this board feel the need to defend Apple on every single decision they make. I love Apple, and even have my little Apple sticker on my car, but come on. Every single phone on the market has a user replaceable battery, and every phone that touts 'Internet Ready' coming out supports faster networks than Edge. Browsing on the net using Edge will be slower than my 28.8k modem from 10 years ago.


Lastly, I'm sorry to be blunt, but all of you complaining about them copying apple are just plain idiots. How freaking different can a touch screen be? It's thin, its rectangle, and the entire face is nothing but a screen! If anything, they are being more innovative by putting the camera on the front, letting the user buy whatever battery they want, and supporting 3G. And its not like they just whipped these things up in the last two weeks, they have probably been in development as long or nearly as long as the iPhone. There are only so many ways you can design a simplistic touch screen phone.

I have had a new phone every two years for the past 6 years. I paid ~100 dollars for the first one, nothing for the second (new contract, new phone) and $50 for my third (new contract, new phone). I don't see that too hard to afford.

The iPhone is not just a phone and should not be compared to the crap service providers give away.

It is not about defending Apple, its about defending the features we find important. If I have to have EDGE, a non-removable battery, and Cingular, fine, because I get Wi-Fi, amazing multimedia play back, and seamless syncing with my Mac.

Again, its not that anybody is ripping anybody off, its just funny to see all these touch screen phones making headlines.

Yes and you can just as easily get a extended battery for phones with removable batteries for around 50 bucks or less. That what I was trying to say.

Yeah I know, I bought an extended battery for my Nokia for like 40 bucks. It gave me a lot more talk time!

I was trying to say that having a removable battery is nice, but I don't find it a deal-breaker when buying a high end device like the iPhone.

xenotaku
Feb 13, 2007, 05:58 PM
So your fine with buying a 600 dollar phone with a measly 8 gigs (and no removable storage), and either buy a new one in 2 years when the battery starts dying, or paying apple an additional 79-129 dollars to replace the battery?

Yeah I know, I bought an extended battery for my Nokia for like 40 bucks. It gave me a lot more talk time!

I was trying to say that having a removable battery is nice, but I don't find it a deal-breaker when buying a high end device like the iPhone.


yeh, and with the iPhone that wont be possible. You will have to pay Apple a hundred bucks or so, just to use the phone you already paid 600 for. That's a load of crap if ya ask me.

steve_hill4
Feb 13, 2007, 06:12 PM
It's really sad that all the people on this board feel the need to defend Apple on every single decision they make. I love Apple, and even have my little Apple sticker on my car, but come on. Every single phone on the market has a user replaceable battery, and every phone that touts 'Internet Ready' coming out supports faster networks than Edge. Browsing on the net using Edge will be slower than my 28.8k modem from 10 years ago.
I completely agree, the sooner Apple get full 3G into an iPhone, the sooner I can waste some money on it. I sure am hell not going from 3G internet access back to something which will take as long to load as WAP did for me 6 years ago, (faster speed+more data=same speed).

Lastly, I'm sorry to be blunt, but all of you complaining about them copying apple are just plain idiots. How freaking different can a touch screen be? It's thin, its rectangle, and the entire face is nothing but a screen! If anything, they are being more innovative by putting the camera on the front, letting the user buy whatever battery they want, and supporting 3G. And its not like they just whipped these things up in the last two weeks, they have probably been in development as long or nearly as long as the iPhone. There are only so many ways you can design a simplistic touch screen phone.


Firstly, there's many ways you can implement a touch screen, just look at the current market to get an idea. Then add that it's multi-touch, not basic touch and you get a more natural feel. Camera on the front? Why are so many on MR going on about cameras on the front of phones at the moment? Does nobody around here own one that already has one? They are purely for video calls on 3G, one reason why the iPhone doesn't yet have one. While I agree it feels like a step back having a non-replaceable battery, how many around here say "The iPod doesn't have a user replaceable battery, think I'll go for a clone of it that looks identical, but has the facility for me to change the battery myself"? I know I don't see it much.

Yes, many have been in development for a while, but not the 2+ years Apple have been doing this thing. If they had, surely we would have heard more about them beforehand, they would have potentially been able to use multi-touch before Apple announced the iPhone, (thus either allowing them to do so, or forcing Apple's hand by threatening patent litigation). To me and most of the tech world, it seems a little too coincidental that within the space of a couple of months either side of the iPhone, (and well within times when all rumours pointed to a multi-touch, keypad-less interface), pretty much every other manufacturer has released a near identical model and claimed Apple copied them. If they have proof, sue Apple, because I'm sure any court would have lots of fun looking over Apple's R&D over the last two years and comparing what others were doing, before deciding how much they owe Apple.

Ha ze
Feb 13, 2007, 06:13 PM
external battery/charger pack that plugs in the bottom when needed?

awshux
Feb 13, 2007, 06:14 PM
Forgetting the other two phones for a sec, I think LG was reacting to the fact that many bloggers were referring to the Prada as an iphone knockoff, when in fact, they had revealed their phone before. Not having the hype machine apple does hurts, especially when you've dropped a ton of money on a licensing deal with a name like Prada, and everyone calls you a clone.

Abstract
Feb 13, 2007, 06:16 PM
A handful of the new phones in korea and japan have cameras that surpass a lot of good digital cameras when it comes to image quality.

No cell phone is going to beat my Rebel SLR. Not by a long shot. :p I imagine image quality will increase, but given the nature of the device it's attached to it's really not a big deal.


Can't wait to see what your pants look like with a Canon Rebel in your pocket. I'm going to guess "ridiculous" is my answer. ;)

You just can't get over the fact that sometimes people want to take a photo of something, and yet they don't have a (decent) camera on hand.

My friend just bought an old, used phone for around $15 USD, and it comes with a 3 MP camera.

chubad
Feb 13, 2007, 06:23 PM
So your fine with buying a 600 dollar phone with a measly 8 gigs (and no removable storage), and either buy a new one in 2 years when the battery starts dying, or paying apple an additional 79-129 dollars to replace the battery?

Yup. In 2 years I will be buying another phone anyways, as will probably most of the other early adopters. You don't think that the iPhone won't improve as well as drop in price?
Ever hear of E-bay? I'll bet even a 2 year old iPhone will be worth some decent money.
So how do you know the price of the battery replacement?
Since when is a PHONE with 8 gigs considered "measly"?

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 13, 2007, 06:31 PM
And still, a camera is not a high priority item on a cell phone. If it takes higher quality shots..great. If not, eh I'll live with this just fine.:D

Abstract, I was being facetious genious. Obviously I'm not going to seriously compare a camera phone with a pro level camera.

MrConspiracy
Feb 13, 2007, 06:33 PM
So there are cosmetic similarities - you haven't seen everything yet on the iPhone. I honestly don't think Steve and the Gang are stupid enough to show the whole works, and then essentially give the competition 5 months to catch up/rip off. Whenever this thing is ready for ship, we're gonna see some further innovation/feature/function that Steve just happened to gloss over this last time.

After all, who says he had the thing in its full final form on-stage?

EagerDragon
Feb 13, 2007, 06:41 PM
So your fine with buying a 600 dollar phone with a measly 8 gigs (and no removable storage), and either buy a new one in 2 years when the battery starts dying, or paying apple an additional 79-129 dollars to replace the battery?
Live and let live, different strokes for different folks.

iPoodOverZune
Feb 13, 2007, 07:03 PM
That's just the mega-pixel myth talking. Throwing in more MP isn't going to improve the camera, you realize that, right? It's about the quality of the sensor, and the relation between sensor size and MP count. Cramming 5MP onto such a small sensor will only result in significantly larger photos with a similar quality of 2MP. In other words, take a picture with a 2MP camera, and increase the size to what a 5MP camera would produce. Bad image quality is all you're getting. Well, and a bigger picture, so you can see the noise better. :D

Well, it is the quality of the lens that matter. The plastic lens usually found on phones dont do much to quality. And as you said, higher MP only gives you bigger picture with same resolution/noise as lower MP. Now if apple can do something in this regard to come up with some innovative idea of cramming good lenses on iPhone, that would be great. Or who knows they might? we just haven't seen a demo of that yet. Also, remember some of this noise, etc can be dealt in the software also. So apple will probably (hopefully) come up with a better solution to this problem, thus providing good quality even at lower specs.

Analog Kid
Feb 13, 2007, 07:10 PM
That Meizu lookalike is hilarious. I don't think China has had an original industrial thought in 50 years.
:rolleyes: Funny, the same was said about Japan. Actually, it still is by those who don't want to believe the students can outperform the teachers. Then, some day, we all wake up and ask "What happened to GM?"...

iPoodOverZune
Feb 13, 2007, 07:37 PM
ROTFL.

- there are phones with:
* 4gig of memory! YES
* OSX like Widgets!! YES ( Yahoo mobile client for Symbian )
* Advanced Web browsers - YES
* Plays movies and TV in wide screen - YES ( including DivX etc )
* Photo displaying - YES
* As nice GUI - No! ( ofc not!, yet )



There are "phones" with all that, but is there a phone that carry all these features and then carry out functions extremely well. What I know from usage of many phones so far is that each of these phones will be quite good at one or two aspects (take famous RAZR - super slim but just look at its software and ease of use; Argh....completely non-sense, want to throw it underneath my car's tires) but there are very few phones which will do good on all areas. Nokia won out with good ease of use with all the features they provided.
So far we have seen that in many or most apple products, easy of use is foremost. Lets see how this one will come out! Although I personally think that this company is legendary for ease of use. So I will definitely go for lower specs but functionally wise making every bit of the least important function available on it. Right now, I dont think I use even more than 10% of functions on the phones I have used. Hope that helps to clear some clouds why it doesn't matter to have it all, what matters is how it does all it has!:)

bloodycape
Feb 13, 2007, 07:53 PM
There are "phones" with all that, but is there a phone that carry all these features and then carry out functions extremely well. What I know from usage of many phones so far is that each of these phones will be quite good at one or two aspects (take famous RAZR - super slim but just look at its software and ease of use; Argh....completely non-sense, want to throw it underneath my car's tires) but there are very few phones which will do good on all areas. Nokia won out with good ease of use with all the features they provided.
So far we have seen that in many or most apple products, easy of use is foremost. Lets see how this one will come out! Although I personally think that this company is legendary for ease of use. So I will definitely go for lower specs but functionally wise making every bit of the least important function available on it. Right now, I dont think I use even more than 10% of functions on the phones I have used. Hope that helps to clear some clouds why it doesn't matter to have it all, what matters is how it does all it has!:)

Actually there is phone that can do all those well. There is the Nokia N and E-series phones. And there there is the the HTC phones(TyTn, Herms just to name a few). Granted some of the Nokia and HTC phone will 4gig space comes from an SD(any format I guess) card, but 4gigs is 4gigs no matter how you look at it.

iPoodOverZune
Feb 13, 2007, 07:59 PM
PD: the iPod sucks big time when you compare it to other players on a hardware level. But it's so nice how it just works, syncs with iTunes, gets all the music, pictures and contacts I have on my computer automatically. And yea, there are so many accessories for it out there.


EXACTLY!

stephenli
Feb 13, 2007, 08:02 PM
Ditto for me in Switzerland...it's a done deal...and it's gonna be for millions more, despite its fairly high price...the iPhone is just 1000 years ahead of any other phone.


1000 years ahead? i dont think so....Steve only said......5 years! haha

however take a look at these oh-my-god function of the Meizu!!!

720 x 480 px screen
3mp camera

SHARP / NEC already shipped their mobile with 2.4 inch LCD in VGA resolution....and I have been using phone with 3mp for more than a year...
Apple have the ability to make it better, but why they didnt?! The components are available, the technology is ready, and the price is not a big deal i suppose....:mad:

Stella
Feb 13, 2007, 08:08 PM
I agree, it does them 'well', but not great. My Nokia 6682 does many things well and I am merely satisfied. If your phone does all of those things to your satisfaction then fine. I guess I expect more from my phone.

I don't want to be satisfied, I want to be amazed, I want to get goose bumps when I use it.

Don't judge every phone as a 6682:D

I hope your satisfied with your iPhone after you find out how limited it is, and its all just candy eye and half a months rent! :)

SiliconAddict
Feb 13, 2007, 08:23 PM
We'll ignore the fact that a couple of those phones were announced before the iPhone was even announced in Jan. (Specifically the LG phone won an award for best design in Dec.) But hey. Why bother with pesky things like facts. :rolleyes: The all screen phone is not a new concept.



Apple have the ability to make it better, but why they didnt?! The components are available, the technology is ready, and the price is not a big deal i suppose....:mad:

Simple. size. Jobs has a size fetish about his wares. He is willing to sacrifice features over form. *shrugs*

PS- Oh and you know what is going to make these things winners over the iPhone? Price and availability. Unlike the iPod the iPhone can only be obtained by signing your life away to another 2 year contract with Cingular. These other phones will probably be able to be purchased through your current provider or can be purchased outright somewhere else without needing to sell a kidney to get one.

JGowan
Feb 13, 2007, 09:36 PM
There are rip offs and then there are logical designs based on technology limitations. The iPhone and the LG phone represent the latter. A rectangle all touch phone is a basic idea. Anyone could and would come up with that. Square buttons are the byproduct of touch screen technology. It's the obvious choice for a finger press.So many words to say so little. It's a RIP OFF, M-ron.

fluidinclusion
Feb 13, 2007, 11:39 PM
Yeah, ok?

I think it is safe to say this is the thing the iPhone was copied after:

http://daapspace4.daap.uc.edu/~wiglemd/apple.jpg

Hopefully, someone will point out this comparison to LG and they will drop it. Unless it's because the Newton wasn't a phone so it wouldn't matter?

oober_freak
Feb 13, 2007, 11:44 PM
Whilst I agree that the iPhone is a good product, but it is nowhere as 'innovative' as people here are pointing it out to be.

I have a Nokia E50 that cost me around $200. It has Symbian 9.1(3rd edition) as its OS.

The first thing that I didn't like about the iPhone was that it won't support third party apps. I have a lot of respect for Steve Jobs, but the whole thing about networks going down because of third party applications is BS. Plain and simple BS.

My $200 phone supports third party applications. I can install Google Maps, Yahoo GO, Yahoo Messenger and MSN Messenger. Heck there are multi-IM messengers for the platform.

There is an application called Fring. I can use the VOIP and IM functionality of Skype AND Google Talk right on my phone. For free. Heck, even OS 10.4.8 on my Mac Mini doesn't have a single app that supports the VOIP functionality of Google Talk.

The mp3 player on my Symbian phone supports AAC, WMA and MP3 songs. I can install a small app to get OGG support.

Videos? I use SmartMovie and DivX that allow me to play 320x240 videos both in landscape and portrait modes. mp4, dix, xvid. The inbuilt realplayer is good too.

Before someone tells me about Safari on iPhone, I'd like to point out that Webkit is pre-installed on my Symbian phone. RSS feeds, AJAX support, multi-window support, Flash support right on the phone. Yes, it renders full pages.
http://s60.com/business/productinfo/applicationsandtechnologies/webrowser/techinfo

If that wasn't enough, Opera is coming out with v9 of its web browser for Symbian. V8.65 is very good, v9 will be better.

I can edit PDF, DOC, XLS files using Quickoffice and OfficeSuite.

As for security and the whole 'network going down' thing, on v9.x symbian phones, applications require a developer certificate to install on your phone. This certificate is provided by Nokia(correct me if I am wrong). You can also get your own certificate, but that will work only on your phone(You have to enter your phone's IMEI no. while getting it signed).

As for the UI, iPhone will have the best UI of all phones. However, Nokia's UI, especially that of its new 9.1 phones is very very good. I have installed a couple of themes, and it looks even better. :)

Here are some screenshots(Forgive me for using the Vista theme :p. Vista sucks, but this theme looks really cool on the phone)

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6996/screenshot0002pm4.jpg

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/9630/screenshot0004uv0.jpg

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/9439/screenshot0006oq6.jpg

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1692/screenshot0005ms3.jpg


The thing that really interests me about the iPhone is its touchscreen functionality. THat is a brilliant innovation :) The Apple team has again showed that they can do what no one else can do. However, expect for the design and the UI, I do not think that the iPhone is worth paying $499 for. I got a 1 GB kingston card for Rs. 650($10-12).

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 14, 2007, 12:28 AM
We'll ignore the fact that a couple of those phones were announced before the iPhone was even announced in Jan. (Specifically the LG phone won an award for best design in Dec.) But hey. Why bother with pesky things like facts. :rolleyes: The all screen phone is not a new concept.




Simple. size. Jobs has a size fetish about his wares. He is willing to sacrifice features over form. *shrugs*

PS- Oh and you know what is going to make these things winners over the iPhone? Price and availability. Unlike the iPod the iPhone can only be obtained by signing your life away to another 2 year contract with Cingular. These other phones will probably be able to be purchased through your current provider or can be purchased outright somewhere else without needing to sell a kidney to get one.

Yet LG's KE850 Prada will be even more expensive than the iPhone, by a sugstantially large amount. Try 600 Euros, which comes to around 700 bucks US. And this is for a phone with the OPTION of higher capacity with a MicroSD slot a smaller display and an identical 2MP camera. From the looks of the hardware, I'd say that any accusations against the iPhone could apply doubly on the LG. If you ask me, the LG is a very very poor offer for what you get. After paying 700 bucks, why would anyone want to pay more for a 2-4GB flash card to boost storage?

I've seen a few products suffer from their form factors with design flaws inherent to the fashionable figures (macbook RSD, macbook pro overheating issues), but how were any of these products somehow feature deprived on account of their form factors? What makes the iPhone featureless on account of its form?

stainlessliquid
Feb 14, 2007, 01:02 AM
Wait, so the F700 is an "iphone-alike" but the iphone isnt an "LG-alike"? The iphone is a hell of a lot more "alike" to the LG than the f700 is to the iphone. The chinese one is a clear ripoff and had every intention of ripping off the iphone, nobody could debate that, but youd have to be a pretty big fanboy to think Samsung is ripping off the iphone with the f700. The interface isnt even remotely similair, either is the design. If anyone should get credit for touchscreen phones and the copycats created by it its LG. This is just a case of touchscreen technology suddenly becoming affordable and every major phone company starting their engines to use it for 2007, any similarities are strictly by coincidence thanks to common sense design.

The iphone offers a lot of things that are unique that other companies arent doing, Im so sick of hearing how every new touchscreen phone coming out is a rip off of the iphone when LG already beat Apple in that area. I also dont understand why a multi touch screen on a phone is innovative or useful, I think the tilt feature is way more interesting and has many more uses than being able to put 2 fingers on your phone.

California
Feb 14, 2007, 01:10 AM
First off, the Chinese probably knew well in advance what the iPhone was going to look like because Jobs stupidly uses their concentration camps -- whoops, I mean labor camps -- whoops I mean factories to manufacture Apple products. The blatant Chinese rip offs of shuffles ipods etc., even using Apple plastic die forms -- is sickening.

Then when one factors in that North Korea does most of its lord and master China's bidding politically (c'mon, now, WHO supplied Kim I SO LONELY Jong Ill whatever with nukes?), then one factors in that in the commie mindset, economic warfare is as viable as actual military moves -- these two companies are playing Jobs off each other in order to make him cease and desist in any lawsuit or intellectual property lawsuit that the WTO would HAVE to recognize.

Jobs should sue the HELL out of the Chinese and then pull all Apple factories out of there. Rip off thieves.

koobcamuk
Feb 14, 2007, 02:20 AM
...
Jobs should sue the HELL out of the Chinese and then pull all Apple factories out of there. Rip off thieves.

Are you being serious? Let's manufacture them in the UK or the USA and watch the price go up by a few thousand %...? Up to you dude. Get over it.

powermac_daddy
Feb 14, 2007, 03:03 AM
It's funny to see people getting piss off on this site.
what are you going to sue? too many rice field? too many people want to get rich and copy from the rich?

Apple can't do ****, there is not way they can do anything to the sly chinese.
Apple just have to live with it. When you destory one, there are 1.2 bil more.

an iPhone look-alike from Chinese company Meizu. what a message to Jobs. I like that.

needthephone
Feb 14, 2007, 03:18 AM
The Chinese are masters at reverse engineering and they do 'somehow' get their hands on CAD Data of the real parts so they can burn their own mould tools. Its easy to scan something now anyway and get a 3D reproduction. I have seen mistakes reproduced in Chinese copies ie there is no reason some features are there anymore but they are reproduced nevertheless. Crafty designers are starting to add meanngless bosses or ribs to act as traps so they can catch out counterfitters.

component manufacturers will exhibit the next lines at trade shows, in the trade journals and proably touch screens were the next big thing six months ago-they probaly had a hunch about what apple was doing anyway. Also as someone sad most of these suppliers are in Asia and word will get around about who is working on what, it is difficult to keep something secret once you start speaking to suppliers.

sunfast
Feb 14, 2007, 03:32 AM
I find it hilarious that the miniOne is so obviously cloned from the iPhone. All these imitations do is make me prefer the iPhone more but it would be interesting if they undercut the iPhone significantly.

As ever though, competition can only be a good thing. I wonder if Apple will improve the iPhone camera specs though. Doesn't 2MP strike you as a bit small. My FREE phone has a 3.2MP camera and a flash - I'd like the iPhone to at least match that if I'm going to spend such a large amount of cash on one.

a456
Feb 14, 2007, 03:35 AM
Apple Macs are now basically PCs, but the reason people buy them is because of the quality of build, the attention to detail, the reliability and of course OS X. We are not sure that any of the other phones have multi-touch, we don't even know if the Windows Mobile that they run would support it. Yes they might look similar and promise great things but with Apple you are more likely to get those things become a reality and to have the phone further developed hand in hand with the OS. The other manufacturers are at the mercy of MS and therefore appeal to fashion more than utility.

I wonder if Apple will improve the iPhone camera specs though. Doesn't 2MP strike you as a bit small. My FREE phone has a 3.2MP camera and a flash - I'd like the iPhone to at least match that if I'm going to spend such a large amount of cash on one.

I personally don't know why they bothered with the camera, it's not in their nature to add such an obvious gimmick - why not 'think different' and leave it out, use the space to expand storage or something. A facing iSight would be great, but anything else just seems to be them bowing to phone carrier. Who wants a load of pictures of poor quality that they wished they had taken on a proper camera.

California
Feb 14, 2007, 03:41 AM
Are you being serious? Let's manufacture them in the UK or the USA and watch the price go up by a few thousand %...? Up to you dude. Get over it.

I'm not over it and I'm not a dude. Jobs should realize the back end cost of dealing with the reverse engineering, rip off Chinese is staggering and simply get a real US/UK crew of workers who get the same concentration camp laborer's job done with Western ingenuity and genius -- not Chinese slave driver's sweat, fear, thievery and obfuscation. Anyone know that some freaky Chinese company actually reverse engineered a Mercedes and markets the copycat under some vaguely sounding Western name? Sick and unsafe "businessmen" over there. Actually corrupt politicos.

Jobs should get the hell out of China; it is the most unGreen, corrupt hellhole I can think of. And then he should sue in every local, federal, world, international trade court or principality he can figure out for this iPhone rip off.

zac4mac
Feb 14, 2007, 04:04 AM
Obfuscation? Well you're educated...
China is where Taiwan/Pakistan/India were 10 years ago -
Where Korea was 20 years ago -
Where Japan was 40 years ago -
Where the US was 150 years ago.

Technological evolution from an agrarian society begins with "copy-catting".

Odd seeing so much hostility, then a quote by St. Thomas Aquinas.

Z

needthephone
Feb 14, 2007, 04:15 AM
I agree patly with the anology that China is like Japan 40 yrs ago but the Japanese at least had signed the various IP treaties. China doesn't respect (although it may claim it does) patents, trade marks, design registration and that is where the differance lies. Its driven purely by low cost labor.

I haven't got lofty ideals about loss of jobs, its the World economy and it will always go for low labour cost. For me, I'm fed up with buying rubbish all the time, even from the major manufacturers who make stuff over there, it breaks down or doesn't work out of the box. I would honestly pay more for a quality product which I know will last a few months at least. For me and quite a few people I know The Made In China mark is a serious turn off-I noticed that on the 2G Shuffle Apple have the Made In China partly (well you have to try hard to find it!)hidden behind the clip.

ddubbo
Feb 14, 2007, 04:16 AM
Prada Phone just prove one more time, that iPhone has nothing revolutionary or innovative but design.All features that Jobs introduced as "Innovations" or "reinventing" already exists at other smart phones, or at least, as Multi Touch, invented by someone else.
Other thing - the people hate touch screens. The proof - despite touch screens in use about 20 years, it didn't catch significant market share. It's being using only at the places where people have no place or choice. Like restaurants or ATM. Until now most ATM dubbed with hard coded keys. There are no touch screens at houses or touch screens keyboards or manage boards for comps. Most of the people will always prefer keyboard to touch screen, and mobile device is no exception for this

VespR
Feb 14, 2007, 04:26 AM
Don't judge every phone as a 6682:D

I hope your satisfied with your iPhone after you find out how limited it is, and its all just candy eye and half a months rent! :)


May I ask what phone you have?

zac4mac
Feb 14, 2007, 04:47 AM
More on topic than my last post -

My SE T 637 is a good phone, voicemail works well, as do texts. That's all I use it for as the screen's too small and so are the buttons - even though it syncs perfectly over BT with my Macs.

I have a Dell Axim with WinCE5.5 or something that syncs with my PC and has a screen big enough for my old eyes to read e-mail and the notes and locations of appointments and meetings. I can even use my finger instead of the stylus if I'm careful.

I have a bunch of iPods that get used for car audio and docked at my desk and other stuff.

I'm going to get an iPhone that will do all of that in one package. Also looking forward to a real web browser without being a software geek... I'm more of a hardware geek.

Z

iMikeT
Feb 14, 2007, 05:50 AM
I wonder how much these guys will be paying to Apple.

Evangelion
Feb 14, 2007, 06:11 AM
Apple stores are popping up everywhere now.

I'm in Helsinki. I believe the nearest Apple Store is in London. Draw your own conclusions.

Offtopic: This is really getting pathetic. Every single nook and cranny in USA has an Apple Store. There are handful of stores in Europe, all of them in the UK. What about rest of us? "You guys don't matter". Well, gee thanks.

Hopefully, someone will point out this comparison to LG and they will drop it. Unless it's because the Newton wasn't a phone so it wouldn't matter?

I really don't see much similarities between the two, apart from both being handheld-devices with a large screen. And that dictates quite a bit of the resulting overall design. We need to look at the details, and the details are different. iPhone has rounded corners, Newton does not. Newton has curved surface, iPhone is flat. iPhone is metal/plastic, Newton is 100% plastic.

California
Feb 14, 2007, 06:20 AM
Obfuscation? Well you're educated...
China is where Taiwan/Pakistan/India were 10 years ago -
Where Korea was 20 years ago -
Where Japan was 40 years ago -
Where the US was 150 years ago.

Technological evolution from an agrarian society begins with "copy-catting".

Odd seeing so much hostility, then a quote by St. Thomas Aquinas.

Z The US was NOT copycatting like the Chinese 150 years ago. They were inventing. Geniusing. Communism/Marxism breeds an unholy materialism, which in turn has bred kleptocracies in the former USSR and a thieving, counterfeiting culture in China -- vastly different mindsets than the U.S. Korea (South) or Japan. Read De Toqueville's comparison of the nascent US and Russia in the 1830's.

The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy... I appreciate the beauty of Jobs and Ives' machines it stirs me to anger to see them being stolen from. I'm not hostile, I'm impatient for justice to fall on the Chinese counterfeiting culture. Jobs should know that you lay down with dogs, you get fleas...

hagjohn
Feb 14, 2007, 06:43 AM
Who Cares?

LOL.... “like omigawd” (in my best valley girl impression)... :D ... competition is great. It will hopefully drive down prices and increase quality for all phones.

“Like, oh my God” (expresses shock). The word “like” is often used alone as a filler such as “um” or “uh”. It is sometimes euphemistically spelled “omigod” or “omigawd”. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_girl)

jhedges3
Feb 14, 2007, 07:22 AM
Aparently... All the people who have posted, except you!!!

I've posted and I don't care.

Well, I don't care as much or in the same way.

lachs99
Feb 14, 2007, 08:05 AM
Can someone post or is there already a detailed tabled comparison on all four phones?
(based on the confirmed specs)
this way every one can argue on the same facts without missing any features …

three innovative things that all have in common:
all touch-screen, all large screen w/ auto-rotate, all play mp3/video


my opinion so far (based on the facts I read/heard so far)

iphone - great product, no doubt in that.
my favorite features (when first shown): great design, great UI, multi-touch, large display, 8GB, full screen video, portrait/landscape auto-change, 802.11g
what is bothering me? network binding, no 3rd app, forecasted price in europe (4GB, EUR 899, about $1.200) in US still $499, no UMTS w/ HSPDA support, only 1 camera at 2 mega pixels

miniOne - nearly a 100% clone as far as I can tell - same design, similar display, specs are a little better (higher resolution, smaller, 3 mega pixels, 2nd cam) - I found no info on capacity, network or price so far - future will tell …

LG KE850 - like the design, comparable resolution, also 2 mega pixels, about EUR 600 ($780) w/ no carrier (!!) but no UMTS or 802.11 ? only 8MB internally plus SD slot ??

F700 - not much info here - it’s a little thicker, touch-screen but still a key pad, smaller screen 2.78in, but 5 mega pixels camera

Therefore:
some thoughts on improvement for the iphone(pimp my iphone ;-)
- add UMTS w/HSPDA & 802.11n (should happen)
- bump-up to 4-6 mega pixels and add 2nd camera for video calling (could happen)
- increase resolution (could happen)
- increase capacity (will happen, sometime - I think no questions on that)
- open-up for other networks (will definitely not happen)
- offer same price in europe (out of the question, since overhere every single product costs more)

the main questions, though, remains: who stole who's technology/ideas/design … well, design-wise my vote goes to Apple, but on the other hand, competition is good and hopefully this will lead to even better products …

Data
Feb 14, 2007, 08:34 AM
OSX is the main reason why i will go for the iphone instead off any other phone, i want it to just work. And by the looks off things the only thing they are getting close with on the clones are the way it looks , no osx and no multitouch screen, in my eyes , that makes it no comparasing.
But i have to admit i am a bit biast when it comes to apple ;-).

clevin
Feb 14, 2007, 08:45 AM
OSX is the main reason why i will go for the iphone instead off any other phone, i want it to just work. And by the looks off things the only thing they are getting close with on the clones are the way it looks , no osx and no multitouch screen, in my eyes , that makes it no comparasing.
But i have to admit i am a bit biast when it comes to apple ;-).

when it out, go try it, a so called 'micro OSX' might not as you expected.

Evangelion
Feb 14, 2007, 08:53 AM
OSX is the main reason why i will go for the iphone instead off any other phone, i want it to just work.

Every single phone I have owned have "just worked".

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 14, 2007, 09:00 AM
On a lighter note my Ericsson T610 is a piece of crap with poor reception :p

iShak
Feb 14, 2007, 09:06 AM
when it out, go try it, a so called 'micro OSX' might not as you expected.

agreed, its not the same OSX as we know it, the software for iPhone has been purpose built for mobile device and has OSX label slapped on it to give it some association with a very popular and trusted product that many of us use everyday.

and people shall fall for it.

morespce54
Feb 14, 2007, 09:08 AM
What Apple really needs is a copyright lawsuit management app.

iLife, iWork and iClaim:cool:

LOL !!! :D

cbud
Feb 14, 2007, 09:20 AM
So your fine with buying a 600 dollar phone with a measly 8 gigs (and no removable storage), and either buy a new one in 2 years when the battery starts dying, or paying apple an additional 79-129 dollars to replace the battery?

Yep! But I believe the battery will last longer than two years, or be replaced by my warrenty, and it most likely will cost less than $75.

whooleytoo
Feb 14, 2007, 09:23 AM
Other thing - the people hate touch screens. The proof - despite touch screens in use about 20 years, it didn't catch significant market share. It's being using only at the places where people have no place or choice. Like restaurants or ATM. Until now most ATM dubbed with hard coded keys. There are no touch screens at houses or touch screens keyboards or manage boards for comps. Most of the people will always prefer keyboard to touch screen, and mobile device is no exception for this

People dislike touchscreens because of the way they're currently implemented. On my Sony Ericsson to scroll you had to use a stylus to click a tiny scroll arrow (far too small to click with a finger) or drag the scroll thumb up and down - not the easiest thing with a stylus! It became a chore to use, hence you naturally do everything you can to avoid having to use it.

The flicking up and down with a finger is so much quicker and more direct I think it will change how people feel about using touchscreens.

Stella
Feb 14, 2007, 09:26 AM
Yep! But I believe the battery will last longer than two years, or be replaced by my warrenty, and it most likely will cost less than $75.

In other news....

... I replaced the battery in my old cell phone last year...
- The battery cost less than $35
- I could replace it myself without needing to read instructions off the internet
- I didn't need any tools to open up the battery compartment
- The battery replacement process took less than 30 seconds!
- it was truely 'user replaceable' and very end user friendly!
- the previous battery lasted for just over 2 years and gave the phone plenty of talk / stand by time - and still a smartphone.

( ^ re: iPhone if its anything like iPod ) .


:-)

cbud
Feb 14, 2007, 09:26 AM
Don't judge every phone as a 6682:D

I hope your satisfied with your iPhone after you find out how limited it is, and its all just candy eye and half a months rent! :)

I have had or used many other phones and they perfom very well too. But again, they don't do it great.

Actually, it will be a full month's rent!

Whilst I agree that the iPhone is a good product, but it is nowhere as 'innovative' as people here are pointing it out to be.

I have a Nokia E50 that cost me around $200. It has Symbian 9.1(3rd edition) as its OS.

The first thing that I didn't like about the iPhone was that it won't support third party apps. I have a lot of respect for Steve Jobs, but the whole thing about networks going down because of third party applications is BS. Plain and simple BS.

My $200 phone supports third party applications. I can install Google Maps, Yahoo GO, Yahoo Messenger and MSN Messenger. Heck there are multi-IM messengers for the platform.

There is an application called Fring. I can use the VOIP and IM functionality of Skype AND Google Talk right on my phone. For free. Heck, even OS 10.4.8 on my Mac Mini doesn't have a single app that supports the VOIP functionality of Google Talk.

The mp3 player on my Symbian phone supports AAC, WMA and MP3 songs. I can install a small app to get OGG support.

Videos? I use SmartMovie and DivX that allow me to play 320x240 videos both in landscape and portrait modes. mp4, dix, xvid. The inbuilt realplayer is good too.

Before someone tells me about Safari on iPhone, I'd like to point out that Webkit is pre-installed on my Symbian phone. RSS feeds, AJAX support, multi-window support, Flash support right on the phone. Yes, it renders full pages.
http://s60.com/business/productinfo/applicationsandtechnologies/webrowser/techinfo

If that wasn't enough, Opera is coming out with v9 of its web browser for Symbian. V8.65 is very good, v9 will be better.

I can edit PDF, DOC, XLS files using Quickoffice and OfficeSuite.

As for security and the whole 'network going down' thing, on v9.x symbian phones, applications require a developer certificate to install on your phone. This certificate is provided by Nokia(correct me if I am wrong). You can also get your own certificate, but that will work only on your phone(You have to enter your phone's IMEI no. while getting it signed).

As for the UI, iPhone will have the best UI of all phones. However, Nokia's UI, especially that of its new 9.1 phones is very very good. I have installed a couple of themes, and it looks even better. :)

Here are some screenshots(Forgive me for using the Vista theme :p. Vista sucks, but this theme looks really cool on the phone)

The thing that really interests me about the iPhone is its touchscreen functionality. THat is a brilliant innovation :) The Apple team has again showed that they can do what no one else can do. However, expect for the design and the UI, I do not think that the iPhone is worth paying $499 for. I got a 1 GB kingston card for Rs. 650($10-12).

Nokia does do it well, Symbian is awesome when it comes to installing 3rd party apps. I have pretty much the same set up as you and I am satisfied. But the iPhone is going to do most of that out of the box, no installing or purchasing apps. SmartMovie cost $30, OfficeSuite cost $50, the built in calender and 3rd party calenders don't sync catagories with iCal, internal memory (RAM) is low, etc. SmartMovie is OK, but come on, it is no iPod! Your E50 cost you around $200, add another $100 for the apps, another $20 for memory card, the time to install them...It took me two days to get a DVD movie on my phone (using a Mac) that SmartMovie would play correctly (audio sync issues). I'd rather pay another $100 bucks to not have to worry about all that.

I'm in Helsinki. I believe the nearest Apple Store is in London. Draw your own conclusions.

Offtopic: This is really getting pathetic. Every single nook and cranny in USA has an Apple Store. There are handful of stores in Europe, all of them in the UK. What about rest of us? "You guys don't matter". Well, gee thanks.

Sorry. When will Europe get the iPhone?

Stella
Feb 14, 2007, 09:52 AM
He can do all of that because there is a 3rd party software library out there.

What happens when you ( or someone ) wants to do something more with their iPhone than just the provided stock applications? You can't - you have to rely on whatever 3rd party controlled software is out there - which will be far more limited in range.

Add $20 for the memory card - fine. But what happens when you've filled up your 4 or 8 gig of memory on the iPhone - you have to start making room - you can't just add more memory or use an additional memory card ( which is slightly awkward - yes ).

Soo my point in this post - "flexibility". iPhone is not particularly very flexible - you get what your given and that is about it, including exclusivity. Buy a full priced phone ( iPhone ) and have it still locked to one carrier. That must be a first in the cell phone world.

What if you wanted to use ICQ MSN, or even, Skype, on your iPhone - well, you can't, Apple may not provide such a multi-messenger client, and may keep it that way. This is one example and not an exhausive list!


Nokia does do it well, Symbian is awesome when it comes to installing 3rd party apps. I have pretty much the same set up as you and I am satisfied. But the iPhone is going to do most of that out of the box, no installing or purchasing apps. SmartMovie cost $30, OfficeSuite cost $50, the built in calender and 3rd party calenders don't sync catagories with iCal, internal memory (RAM) is low, etc. SmartMovie is OK, but come on, it is no iPod! Your E50 cost you around $200, add another $100 for the apps, another $20 for memory card, the time to install them...It took me two days to get a DVD movie on my phone (using a Mac) that SmartMovie would play correctly (audio sync issues). I'd rather pay another $100 bucks to not have to worry about all that.

MacBram
Feb 14, 2007, 09:53 AM
agreed, its not the same OSX as we know it, the software for iPhone has been purpose built for mobile device and has OSX label slapped on it to give it some association with a very popular and trusted product that many of us use everyday.

and people shall fall for it.

The "not the same OSX as we know it" part will likely be a very different and much more positive reality than the way Windows Mobile or Windows CE differs from Windows (http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/C866B1E6-BF99-43D4-A719-3AC4D347667A.html) for the desktop.

Microsoft basically has to maintain a couple of diff OS's whose only similarity is the word "Windows" in the name. In contrast, it appears the guts of OS X can be ported to different platforms. Afterall, Apple has experience in this area. An article from Roughly Drafted (http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/69DDEC68-9E93-4A21-9C5F-F15F0D67F740.html) shows how the footprint for OS X can be significantly reduced while maintaining core features. The language files, help files, drivers for hardware, files for drawing multiple windows, etc, etc, make up most of the weight of the desktop OS.

Those concerned about the whole third-party-app issue can read about that on roughly drafted as well. Makes sense.

bigbigmac
Feb 14, 2007, 10:00 AM
Unlike many people here, I can't say I love iPhone before I can actually try it out myself.

OSX is great on my MBP, but how it works on a phone is still an unknown.

People say Multi-Touch is great, but will it allow single-hand operation?

To be honest, if you have spent some time in Japan and (to a lesser extend) other parts of Asia, you'd find that although the iPhone is pretty and innovative in certain areas (e.g. UI), it lacks massively in functions. Jobs said it's 5 years ahead of any phones, but I'd say that it's at least 2 years behind a typical phone that you can find in Japan. For years, Japanese have been using their phones for:

- watching live TV and video
- downloading music
- high speed web access/browsing
- editing documents
- remote controlling home appliances
- playing online games
- video calls
- reading ebooks
- GPS nativagtion
- taking pictures
- recording good quality video
- banking
- shopping
- working as an e-wallet (paying for transportations, vending machines and other small transactions)
... and many more!

Also, for those people who say the Samsung F700 is a copycat, I read from Gizmodo that the UI for the F700 is indeed designed by Adobe for Samsung, and is based on Flash. It also feature VibeTonz which gives you tactile feedback when you type on the screen.

As good as Apple is, you can't just write off other players in the mobile phone market.

cbud
Feb 14, 2007, 10:05 AM
He can do all of that because there is a 3rd party software library out there.

What happens when you ( or someone ) wants to do something more with their iPhone than just the provided stock applications? You can't - you have to rely on whatever 3rd party controlled software is out there - which will be far more limited in range.

Add $20 for the memory card - fine. But what happens when you've filled up your 4 or 8 gig of memory on the iPhone - you have to start making room - you can't just add more memory or use an additional memory card ( which is slightly awkward - yes ).

Soo my point in this post - "flexibility". iPhone is not particularly very flexible - you get what your given and that is about it, including exclusivity. Buy a full priced phone ( iPhone ) and have it still locked to one carrier. That must be a first in the cell phone world.

What if you wanted to use ICQ MSN, or even, Skype, on your iPhone - well, you can't, Apple may not provide such a multi-messenger client, and may keep it that way.

I found this 'flexibility' to not work to my satisfaction, but I understand why others would not like the iPhone because they can't install some 3rd party app. I don't use ICQ,MSN,Skype etc. But if it works for you and you don't see the benifits of the iPhone, then fine, don't buy one. But for me, the iPhone appears to have features I cannot find elsewhere. Is it perfect? No. But its imperfections don't matter to me as much as the imperfections of other phones and that's the bottom line.

jhedges3
Feb 14, 2007, 10:14 AM
Every single phone I have owned have "just worked".

I'm guessing it's not a fair comparison though.

If all of the phones you’ve owned had nearly matching functionality and general specs as the iPhone you’d have a point, but I’m assuming they didn’t.

Digitalclips
Feb 14, 2007, 10:56 AM
I'm sorry, there is no way Apple ripped off the Prada phone. Apple has been working on the iPhone for 2 years.

I'll also add that I'm not at all surprised with the shameless rip off attempts of the iPhone. Don't any of these companies have any pride? Why can't other people innovate and come up with their own ideas instead of just trying to ride Apple's genious? It's really starting to piss me off!!!

And it has been going on for well over 30 years. I doubt IBM would have rushed that piece of junk called an IBM PC (I was an an Apple and PC micro dealer back then) into the market but for the Apple][ .. and from then on Apple (or rather Steve - nothing really happened between his leaving and returning at Apple) has been the R&D department for many, many companies.

I am sure Steve has become used to it and plans accordingly.

I found this 'flexibility' to not work to my satisfaction, but I understand why others would not like the iPhone because they can't install some 3rd party app. I don't use ICQ,MSN,Skype etc. But if it works for you and you don't see the benifits of the iPhone, then fine, don't buy one. But for me, the iPhone appears to have features I cannot find elsewhere. Is it perfect? No. But its imperfections don't matter to me as much as the imperfections of other phones and that's the bottom line.

Right on. Let me give an illustration of an average cell phone user who is not a computer geek ... my wife. Every six to 12 months or so she gets some kind of upgraded Phone from her provider. It can be weeks before she has figured out how to change ring tones, get text messages and deal with all the features. Not that she is dumb, she is simply very busy with her real work and hasn't the time to learn the new way the UI is on each new phone the same day she gets it. Mostly the phone is from the same company yet it is totally different in its UI. It is this very fact that for many moving to a smart phone hasn't happened, if a straight forward phone's UI is so totally crappy and unintuitive they stay clear of a more complex and more features so called smart phone.

Enter the Mac of Phones ... it is to a phone what a MacPlus was to an IBM PC running DOS. Simple, elegant. Can it do everything...? maybe not but frightening it isn't. I think many will buy them for the reason that they just know that the UI will be logical, obvious, straightforward and intuitive.

radio893fm
Feb 14, 2007, 11:07 AM
ROTFL.

Some of the initial posts are a hoot!

"Apple didn't rip off other manufacturers"...
( which I agree with, due to development time )

But if another phone immediately ( give or take a few months ) comes AFTER iPhone, then Company X has ripped off the iPhone, or is an iPhone clone - never that the iPhone is a clone of another!! I'm pointing out the double standards going on...

Just to give some open minded perspectiveness:



- there are phones with:
* 4gig of memory! YES
* OSX like Widgets!! YES ( Yahoo mobile client for Symbian )
* Advanced Web browsers - YES
* Plays movies and TV in wide screen - YES ( including DivX etc )
* Photo displaying - YES
* As nice GUI - No! ( ofc not!, yet )

You could look at it the other way -

Does iPhone have :
- open platform development for 3rd party developers ? No
- GPS? - No
- Expandable memory / removable memory ? No
- Subsidized by carriers - thus cheaper - No!
- 3G support? No!
- non-exclusivity - No
- *user replaceable* batteries - indications are NO (iPod battery is not designed to be user replaceable as a comparison)
- built in radio - No
- Blackberry messaging compatible - No ( customers use this too )
- Video recording camera - No? ( some one confirm )
- Good quality built in ( > 2MP ) camera with flash? No
- VOIP - No
- Speed dial - No ? ( someone confirm )


Oh, and don't tell me that any features that iPhone lacks is an indication that other phones have unnecessary functionality leading to bloat!!!!

Finally someone with some sense!!! I was laughing at the fanboyism in its more pathetic way!

iShak
Feb 14, 2007, 11:21 AM
The "not the same OSX as we know it" part will likely be a very different and much more positive reality than the way Windows Mobile or Windows CE differs from Windows (http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/C866B1E6-BF99-43D4-A719-3AC4D347667A.html) for the desktop.

Microsoft basically has to maintain a couple of diff OS's whose only similarity is the word "Windows" in the name. In contrast, it appears the guts of OS X can be ported to different platforms. Afterall, Apple has experience in this area. An article from Roughly Drafted (http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/69DDEC68-9E93-4A21-9C5F-F15F0D67F740.html) shows how the footprint for OS X can be significantly reduced while maintaining core features. The language files, help files, drivers for hardware, files for drawing multiple windows, etc, etc, make up most of the weight of the desktop OS.

Those concerned about the whole third-party-app issue can read about that on roughly drafted as well. Makes sense.

why does everything needs to be compared to microsoft? and while we are at it i think windows CE and mobile editions do their job very well indeed, i am yet to try out version 6 but its very promising, compared to iPhone's OSX (why os 'ten'? why not start from one? it is first of its kind isnt it? just another proof of how apple's using the 'label') which i am yet to see and use ..

to compare something you havent even seen to something that has been around for atleast 5 year is just .. /you-know-what

sionharris
Feb 14, 2007, 11:36 AM
i've just come up with a brilliant idea for touch-screen phones.

fingerprint security! instead of having to remember codes, just use your fingerprint to log-in, to authorise stuff, etc.

i've seen (part of) the future!

Porco
Feb 14, 2007, 11:41 AM
i've just come up with a brilliant idea for touch-screen phones.

fingerprint security! instead of having to remember codes, just use your fingerprint to log-in, to authorise stuff, etc.

i've seen (part of) the future!

Except when you're mugged for your phone, they cut your finger off too! Can't wait! :p

JGowan
Feb 14, 2007, 11:45 AM
my opinion so far (based on the facts I read/heard so far)

<snip specs and speculations>

The one thing that you didn't include among your list of pros and cons was the Brand and Quality that is Apple. Sure, a knock-off might have a little better camera (if you're counting pixels alone which a higher count doesn't always mean) but is the company you're buying from as reputable as Apple or known for incredible integration and scrutinized details? That's a big factor to consider and one that I think people will certainly consider.

Think about this? Even with FM Tuners, voice recording, bluetooth squirting and other features that the Zune and others have that iPods don't, people still bought Apple's player in record numbers this past holiday seasons. Specs don't always equal the superior solution: a fact I believe many on this thread are losing sight of.

oober_freak
Feb 14, 2007, 11:48 AM
Nokia does do it well, Symbian is awesome when it comes to installing 3rd party apps. I have pretty much the same set up as you and I am satisfied. But the iPhone is going to do most of that out of the box, no installing or purchasing apps. SmartMovie cost $30, OfficeSuite cost $50, the built in calender and 3rd party calenders don't sync catagories with iCal, internal memory (RAM) is low, etc. SmartMovie is OK, but come on, it is no iPod! Your E50 cost you around $200, add another $100 for the apps, another $20 for memory card, the time to install them...It took me two days to get a DVD movie on my phone (using a Mac) that SmartMovie would play correctly (audio sync issues). I'd rather pay another $100 bucks to not have to worry about all that.

Actually, DivX has come out with its own version of a video player(free). It has the same UI that Smart Movie has, and it plays all the files that Smartmovie does. Even I have faced audio sync issues with Smart Movie. I fixed the sync issue by setting the 'Audio preroll time' to -0.36 seconds.

But I agree with you when you say that the iPhone will do all this in a more elegant way.

I'm a little disappointed that Apple will start selling the phone here only in 2008. I mean come on cell phones are not mp3 players. The two biggest markets for cell phones will get the iPhone only in 2008?!?! It just doesn't make sense.

Sorry. When will Europe get the iPhone?

Yet, Apple will be introducing the iPhone starting with the place, where phones sell the least currently.

In mobile phone sales it's more like Asia>Europe>North America.

Even if Apple does not introduce the iPhone in Asia before 2008, it will start appearing in shady non-legit dealerships within months of it being introduced in America.

It'll mean loss of revenue for those governments and loss of revenue for the local Apple offices, considering everything from Apple sells at 10% premium minimum outside of North America.

bloodycape
Feb 14, 2007, 12:28 PM
miniOne - nearly a 100% clone as far as I can tell - same design, similar display, specs are a little better (higher resolution, smaller, 3 mega pixels, 2nd cam) - I found no info on capacity, network or price so far - future will tell …

Last I read it was going to be GSM and CDMA phone(WCDMA I think it is called?)

i've just come up with a brilliant idea for touch-screen phones.

fingerprint security! instead of having to remember codes, just use your fingerprint to log-in, to authorise stuff, etc.

i've seen (part of) the future!

yeah if the future was 2004. Hp has had pocket pc devices with finger print scanners that do what you are asking for.

50548
Feb 14, 2007, 12:44 PM
If you want to talk about double standards, let's talk about virtualization. Microsoft is demonized by the Mac community for stipulating in their user agreement that only the higher end versions of Vista may be virtualized. However they're not given credit for even allowing virtualization. Apple will not. There's no absolute technical reason why OS X can't be virtualized a la Vista (though it may be more difficult with Core Animation, etc.), only that Apple says you may not do it. So for the sake of fairness, we should all turn around and scorn Apple too.

(In my defence, I dislike Microsoft as much as the next guy: I'm a recent switcher and I tell everyone I know to get a Mac if they have any choice at all. But I'm just sayin...)

Sorry, you compare Apples with Bananas here...it's a BASIC paradigm of Apple's business model to prohibit any usage of OS X outside the Mac environment, be it with clones, cheapo PC boxes or virtualization...simple as that.

It CANNOT be compared with MS, which is BY DEFINITION a seller of OSs to any computer out there...so MS has no grounds to forbid virtualization, apart from pure greed...Apple does it because otherwise it will become a software company, which it is NOT, by a long shot.

JGowan
Feb 14, 2007, 12:53 PM
i've just come up with a brilliant idea for touch-screen phones.

fingerprint security! instead of having to remember codes, just use your fingerprint to log-in, to authorise stuff, etc.

i've seen (part of) the future!I've seen the other part of the future. The part where a person sticks a gun in your face and tells you to change ownership of the phone to him. Obviously you'll need to swipe your finger to get to that part of the menu, but you can bet that changing ownership to another's fingerprint would be necessary in order to sell the device. In this case, steal the device.

epardilla
Feb 14, 2007, 12:56 PM
I wish Apple Inc would stop announcing new products that aren't going to readily available in stores... i.e. appletv (Gdmmit I want one NOW---two weeks is too long to wait!) and iphone which to apple's detriment in announcing early has caused an explosion of ifoneys!

Stella
Feb 14, 2007, 12:58 PM
Apple had to announce it early - due to FFC - any devices submitted become public knowledge. Of course, SJ doesn't want his thunder stolen!

Anyway, it takes time to develop the GUI - so some of these phones are not straight rip-offs from the iPhone - since some where released,too soon after iPhone - for it to be possible, or before the iPhone was announced.

Apple have never ripped off other ideas - NOT! They are just as guilty as other companies.

I wish Apple Inc would stop announcing new products that aren't going to readily available in stores... i.e. appletv (Gdmmit I want one NOW---two weeks is too long to wait!) and iphone which to apple's detriment in announcing early has caused an explosion of ifoneys!

cbud
Feb 14, 2007, 01:10 PM
...Apple have never ripped off other ideas - NOT! They are just as guilty as other companies.

Please give an example.

Stella
Feb 14, 2007, 01:13 PM
Please give an example.

Your being serious? You really want examples of where Apple have copied other companies?

Do you seriously believe that Apple have never copied?

One example:

- Watson -> and that became Sherlock ( much dumbed down immitation )


EDIT:
How about searchable File Meta data? BEOS implemented that before Apple, and microsoft announced they were implementating in windows way before Tiger - in fact - Cairo - back in the 1990s.

You'll probably dismiss this - but if Apple had implemented first - the Fan boi's would be crowing - the world was copying Apple because they implemented first, and thus their idea. You see, it also works in reverse too! Apple copying the searchable meta data idea.

cbud
Feb 14, 2007, 01:19 PM
Your being serious? You really want examples of where Apple have copied other companies?

Do you seriously believe that Apple have never copied?

I do not have any information on the subject, that is why I asked you for an example. One or two will be fine.

bretm
Feb 14, 2007, 01:21 PM
I do not have any information on the subject, that is why I asked you for an example. One or two will be fine.

Another example: Widgets.

Stella
Feb 14, 2007, 01:23 PM
I do not have any information on the subject, that is why I asked you for an example. One or two will be fine.

Three provided for you ( thanks BretM )! OK, I was just curious why you wanted to know...

cbud
Feb 14, 2007, 01:30 PM
One example:

- Watson -> and that became Sherlock ( much dumbed down immitation )


EDIT:
How about searchable File Meta data? BEOS implemented that before Apple, and microsoft announced they were implementating in windows way before Tiger - in fact - Cairo - back in the 1990s.

You'll probably dismiss this - but if Apple had implemented first - the Fan boi's would be crowing - the world was copying Apple because they implemented first, and thus their idea. You see, it also works in reverse too! Apple copying the searchable meta data idea.

Don't assume what I will dismiss. If there is evidence, I will not dismiss it. I may enjoy Apple's products, but it does not mean I will ignore the truth. Thank you for providing me with information. I don't write on these forums to praise Apple, but instead to share ideas and learn more about computer technology.

Stella
Feb 14, 2007, 01:38 PM
Don't assume what I will dismiss. If there is evidence, I will not dismiss it. I may enjoy Apple's products, but it does not mean I will ignore the truth. Thank you for providing me with information. I don't write on these forums to praise Apple, but instead to share ideas and learn more about computer technology.

Sorry I didn't mean "you" in particular - but more others - i.e,. "fan boys".

cbud
Feb 14, 2007, 01:55 PM
Sorry I didn't mean "you" in particular - but more others - i.e,. "fan boys".

It’s all good. I just read about Watson, I had never heard about that.

When does implementing become stealing? Does it have to be copyrighted? It appears to be a very thin line. So thin, that it is hard (or not worth it) to take legal action (like in Watson’s case).

I don't think the companies making these 'new' cell phones are stealing from each other; they are just implementing ideas, concepts, and technologies that are around.

Stella
Feb 14, 2007, 02:02 PM
Yep.

I suppose 'stealing' depends on who is doing the stealing and how much of a fan boy that person is who is trying define the word ;-)

Watson got sold to Sun ( I think ) and was never heard of again.

Yep, I think your definitely right there - all cell manufacturers copy each other, and innovate those ideas into products.

It’s all good. I just read about Watson, I had never heard about that.

When does implementing become stealing? Does it have to be copyrighted? It appears to be a very thin line. So thin, that it is hard (or not worth it) to take legal action (like in Watson’s case).

I don't think the companies making these 'new' cell phones are stealing from each other; they are just implementing ideas, concepts, and technologies that are around.

jhedges3
Feb 14, 2007, 02:04 PM
Three provided for you ( thanks BretM )! OK, I was just curious why you wanted to know...

I believe that this discussion of copy or not copy is misplaced. If someone, say a MS developer, comes up with an efficient way to do something, for example, then others should adopt it, either as is or with additional improvements. It is to the benefit of all users for this sharing to take place. Or do you feel that we could progress at the same speed if, for pride or otherwise, every company developed it’s own solutions in parallel?

It’s a little like criticizing Honda for adopting power windows since Toyota had them first. Would it be better if such functionality remained a Toyota thing forever? And it would be no better to continue in this way and start saying things like well yeah Toyota is no better because they adopted power steering, which Honda had before they did.

Stella
Feb 14, 2007, 02:17 PM
I'm in no way criticising companies for copying Apple or vice versa.

All companies do it ( yes, even Apple ), and as you say, benefits the consumer. Those ideas are improved upon in the next iteration of products.

You have good points.

I believe that this discussion of copy or not copy is misplaced. If someone, say a MS developer, comes up with an efficient way to do something, for example, then others should adopt it, either as is or with additional improvements. It is to the benefit of all users for this sharing to take place. Or do you feel that we could progress at the same speed if, for pride or otherwise, every company developed it’s own solutions in parallel?

It’s a little like criticizing Honda for adopting power windows since Toyota had them first. Would it be better if such functionality remained a Toyota thing forever? And it would be no better to continue in this way and start saying things like well yeah Toyota is no better because they adopted power steering, which Honda had before they did.

Evangelion
Feb 14, 2007, 02:28 PM
Please give an example.

Fast User Switching (even admitted by SJ himself)

Spotlight

Spaces

That's after 5 seconds of thinking.

Jut remembered: Gadgets appeared in Vista in one of the beta-version, long before OS X got Widgets.

Sorry. When will Europe get the iPhone?

In 4th quarter of this year. And I don't think that Apple is going to open dozen or stores across Europe by that time. I would love for them to prove me wrong, but I don't see that happening.

I'm guessing it's not a fair comparison though.

If all of the phones you’ve owned had nearly matching functionality and general specs as the iPhone you’d have a point, but I’m assuming they didn’t.

My previous phone was Nokia 9300 Communicator. Current phone is Nokia E60, soon I'll be moving to E61.

jhedges3
Feb 14, 2007, 02:50 PM
My previous phone was Nokia 9300 Communicator. Current phone is Nokia E60, soon I'll be moving to E61.

I'm not familiar. Are they similar to the iPhone?

scrambledwonder
Feb 14, 2007, 02:59 PM
I love reading all of these posts talking about how great "multi-touch" is. How many of you guys have actually used it? Zero.

I like Apple computers and iPods as much as the next guy, but I don't believe that something is the greatest thing ever just because Steve Jobs says so. Until I see otherwise, I will not believe that a touch screen is a viable replacement for a full qwerty keyboard, no matter who manufactures it.

Man, after watching Jeff Han demo his touch screen, I was ready to sell my car for one. . . . Definitely a replacement for a traditional keyboard. There are so many advantages. The size of the keyboard isn't set in stone. The number of keys isn't. The whole layout isn't either. Think about it, you could design your own keyboard layout to maximize efficiency. We wouldn't be slaves to the QWERTY, which was developed sometime in the Paleocene, I believe. It will definitely revolutionize the keyboard for people who speak and write languages that aren't based on the roman script; like Chinese, Japanese, Thai, etc. The touch screen as an input device is far more flexible than a keyboard. And I haven't even begun to discuss the ability to manipulate images. . .

I think touch screen—either Apple's idea of it or Jeff Han's or Nokia's or whatever—is the biggest thing to happen in computing EVER. It will totally change user interfaces in ways we've only begun to imagine. And Steve Jobs didn't tell me that, I figured it out on my own.

Anyway, back on topic. Who cares if anybody stole the design of the iPhone or vice versa? Artists, engineers, musicians, even scientists borrow and remix other people's ideas all the time. It's how information flows and changes and GROWS.

Stella
Feb 14, 2007, 03:02 PM
I'm not familiar. Are they similar to the iPhone?

They have common functionality plus they offer extra functionality that the iPhone does not have.

You shouldn't start dissmissing phones simply because they aren't touch screen.

jhedges3
Feb 14, 2007, 03:17 PM
They have common functionality plus they offer extra functionality that the iPhone does not have.

You shouldn't start dissmissing phones simply because they aren't touch screen.

I'm not dismissing anything. I don't care about touch screen, although I do like watching things with Jeff Han.

Someone said that iPhone is cool with Os X because it will work. Evangelion said that all of his phones work. But that doesn't seem fair if they don't have the same functionality.

Telp
Feb 14, 2007, 04:25 PM
Nobody will get close to replicating Apple's intuitive UI. They may have touch-screen abilities but that doesn't make them iPhones.

besides the fact that tthey prolly wont connect so easily with macs

wilburdl
Feb 14, 2007, 04:47 PM
Couple things I'd like Apple to copy from these other phones are 1.higher resolution and 2.second camera for video calls.

bretm
Feb 14, 2007, 05:08 PM
Couple things I'd like Apple to copy from these other phones are 1.higher resolution and 2.second camera for video calls.

Couple things I'd like other phones to do worth a crap...

Address Book
Web Surfing
Calendar
Voice Mail

They are all horrible horrible horrible. Just flat out crappy. And that's beside the point that their user interface is acrhaic as is the keyboard.

The iphone is cheaper than many, and more expensive than some and it appears to only lack full apps like excel or word. But perhaps it will have some mini apps. Perhaps they're riding on the imminent iWork release.

No what none of the other phones are? A widescreen iPod. The most advanced iPod to date at that. Except for the lack of storage of course. But hell, inside this iPhone is a nano with a 3.5 inch screen. What's that worth? An 8gig nano with a 1 inch non-touch screen is $200.

Just the amazing voice mail capabilities would make me want one. What other phone can you browse your voice mail right on the screen?

California
Feb 14, 2007, 05:34 PM
I'm in no way criticising companies for copying Apple or vice versa. Start by doing your homework. Windows itself is a rip off of the original Mac OS. Ever try to play on a pre 1984 PC? Code Code Code. Horrid. Apple is the best and you are sniping at gnats.

jhedges3
Feb 14, 2007, 05:47 PM
They are all horrible horrible horrible. Just flat out crappy. And that's beside the point that their user interface is acrhaic as is the keyboard.

Why can't someone release a new standard to supplant the keyboard that’s designed for typing with thumbs, or maybe with a finger or two? I’m guessing that would be some sort of radial pattern of letters, with high frequency letters near the center. It should obviously be touch-based.

I just don’t get why we should be pleased to have a QWERTY arrangement if we’re never going to type in that way. One of the few advantages that might have over say the number-based ones that some phones have is that users might be more familiar with what keys are where.

clevin
Feb 14, 2007, 05:52 PM
Start by doing your homework. Windows itself is a rip off of the original Mac OS. Ever try to play on a pre 1984 PC? Code Code Code. Horrid. Apple is the best and you are sniping at gnats.

was, don't forget the world is actually turning. You might intend to say that windows 3.2 was a rip off of OS1. but You sounds like you were saying windows vista/xp is a rip off of OSX, please, don't be exaggerate. and remember OSX copies numerous code from BSD. So you don't really have any position on OSX.

just don’t get why we should be pleased to have a QWERTY arrangement if we’re never going to type in that way. One of the few advantages that might have over say the number-based ones that some phones have is that users might be more familiar with what keys are where.
check wiki for the invention of the keyboard, there was no reason why it was invented that way, as long as ppl use it that way without problem, who care how they were arranged.

Stella
Feb 14, 2007, 06:08 PM
Start by doing your homework. Windows itself is a rip off of the original Mac OS. Ever try to play on a pre 1984 PC? Code Code Code. Horrid. Apple is the best and you are sniping at gnats.

Where do you think Apple got their UI from? Xerox. MAC OS is a 'copy'... if your going down that road.

Your post is a classic Fan Boi post if ever I saw one.

jhedges3
Feb 14, 2007, 06:45 PM
check wiki for the invention of the keyboard, there was no reason why it was invented that way, as long as ppl use it that way without problem, who care how they were arranged.

I have read about it on Wikipedia (see below). According to Wikipedia the QWERTY layout was designed to solve problems that the iPhone doesn’t have, such as jammed keys on a typewriter. Furthermore, even if a person typed with all of their fingers in home row on an iPhone, which nobody will, the layout was designed for slowness, biases typing to the left hand, etc.

Furthermore, I’m not convinced that people do use such a layout on an iPhone, or any other phone, without problems, as you suggest. If you have any evidence that they do I’d be very curious to see it. In any case, whether a better layout should be adopted should not depend on whether people have problems with the existing one. If the benefits of having a newer one out way the negatives of keeping the old one, we should have a new one, one should be developed.

I care about how they’re arranged. There is simply no reason, given multi-touch technology, that we should continue with an archaic standard. It would seem that the ability to have different keyboards for different situations may benefit people with disabilities, people with different hand sizes, people who speak and write in different languages, and people who’ve already, or will, develop some sort of physiological strain from using QWERTY.

From Wikipedia:

The QWERTY keyboard layout was devised in the 1860s by the creator of the first modern typewriter, Christopher Sholes, a newspaper editor who lived in Milwaukee. Originally, the characters on the typewriters he invented were arranged alphabetically, set on the end of a metal bar which struck the paper when its key was pressed. However, once an operator had learned to type at speed, the bars attached to letters that lay close together on the keyboard became entangled with one another, forcing the typist to manually unstick the typebars, and also frequently blotting the document[1]. Sholes solved the jamming problem not by forcing typists to slow down, but by separating common sequences of letters in English[2]. Pairs of keys that are frequently struck in succession were placed as far from each other as possible, so that the hammers that were likely to be used in quick succession were less likely to interfere with each other. [citation needed]

The home row (ASDFGHJKL) of the QWERTY layout is thought to be a remnant of the old alphabetical layout that QWERTY replaced. QWERTY also attempted to alternate keys between hands, allowing one hand to move into position while the other hand strikes a key. This sped up both the original double-handed hunt-and-peck technique and the later touch typing technique; however, single-handed words such as stewardesses, lollipop and monopoly show flaws in the alternation.

An unfortunate consequence of the layout, for right-handed typists, is that many more words can be spelled using only the left hand. In fact, thousands of English words can be spelled using only the left hand, while only a couple of hundred words can be typed using only the right hand.

jingbugle
Feb 14, 2007, 07:24 PM
- Cam on the front
- GPS
- Voice recognition driven navigation
- Bluetooth headphones (apple branded?)
- (of course) bump in existing specs to match or exceed others

If he gives all at once, we will not see him soon!

deputy_doofy
Feb 14, 2007, 08:43 PM
Well, if Apple's phone does catch on, and I think it will, I will be buying a rev. b or rev. c model. Count me in as someone who will finally give up on Nokia phones for this.

iPoodOverZune
Feb 14, 2007, 09:04 PM
The whole layout isn't either. Think about it, you could design your own keyboard layout to maximize efficiency. We wouldn't be slaves to the QWERTY, which was developed sometime in the Paleocene, I believe. It will definitely revolutionize the keyboard for people who speak and write languages that aren't based on the roman script; like Chinese, Japanese, Thai, etc. The touch screen as an input device is far more flexible than a keyboard.

Anyway, back on topic. Who cares if anybody stole the design of the iPhone or vice versa? Artists, engineers, musicians, even scientists borrow and remix other people's ideas all the time. It's how information flows and changes and GROWS.

With you former part of the comment, I think that the patent where apple showed one could use a touchscreen kind of interface and then on top of that you could put different human interfaces like keyboard, etc might be something which we will see in near future from apple. and of course other companies may come up with some touchscreen applications of their own. So may be touchscreen itself may not radically change the keyboards but it will definitely morph into many more uses.

I couldn't agree more with the latter part of the comment! We do innovation in our scientific pursuits with borrowing ideas and adding our inputs and giving unique twists here and there and in the process cracking a puzzle. That's how information and our society grows. In research you can't be a lone ranger. You have to depend on something - that could be individuals or prior information or whatever - and then implement those with something from yourself. Now in that process, it may happen that you may stumble upon something or come up with something which will revolutionize the whole process of doing research/work. Probably fire and wheel were such incidents in the past. Aircrafts and air mode of transportation in last century. In more modern times, for example in scientific fields, cracking DNA code, building a PCR, innovative reactions like Sharpless asymmetric synthesis, then in electronics fields like computer, use of mouse, GUI implementation. So nothing started in vacuum. I consider perfectly OK to implement ideas around.

But then there is a difference between plaigarizing something and implementing by innovating a borrowed idea. Now here is where something gets interesting. You will find this with people around you in general too but it is especially true in research areas. There will be many individuals who will be more comfortable (or shall i say more predisposed) to copy things from others (which i like to call as "You do that in rat, I will do it in cat" thing). And then there will be some who will be always predisposed (or more thrilled) to come out with something novel and innovative, even though that step may involve some amount of borrowing information. So this is also true of companies. All companies do some amount of coping/borrowing thing, but then there are some who want to do something special all the time, paying attention to details and try to have edge over the rest and then there will be others who will be more mediocre in innovating/inventing stuff. Just like individuals, the philosophy/approach of company towards their business differentiates the way we look at them. So probably that's how apple is more often seen as innovating and microsoft more often seen as copying although both does it to certain extent. At last, it should be fine wih us to accept both types. Both types helps advancement of our world. :)

clevin
Feb 14, 2007, 09:27 PM
I have read about it on Wikipedia (see below). According to Wikipedia the QWERTY layout was designed to solve problems that the iPhone doesn’t have, such as jammed keys on a typewriter. Furthermore, even if a person typed with all of their fingers in home row on an iPhone, which nobody will, the layout was designed for slowness, biases typing to the left hand, etc.

Furthermore, I’m not convinced that people do use such a layout on an iPhone, or any other phone, without problems, as you suggest. If you have any evidence that they do I’d be very curious to see it. In any case, whether a better layout should be adopted should not depend on whether people have problems with the existing one. If the benefits of having a newer one out way the negatives of keeping the old one, we should have a new one, one should be developed.


c, im not interested to defend something that doesn't really have a reason, the only reason that layout is still strong, is simply a habit, if you think apple should re-invent the layout, I won't say its not right, I can only say it will not be good for business, coz it against the habit. and this habit, in my opinion, is neither good, nor bad.

bloodycape
Feb 14, 2007, 11:40 PM
Just the amazing voice mail capabilities would make me want one. What other phone can you browse your voice mail right on the screen?

technically any windows mobile device with the right 3rd party app and I think there is also a similar software out for palm phones.

ortuno2k
Feb 14, 2007, 11:58 PM
I love Apple and their products, but I'm SO SICK of this iPhone talk.

Evangelion
Feb 15, 2007, 01:23 AM
Evangelion said that all of his phones work. But that doesn't seem fair if they don't have the same functionality.

Well, the Communicator can do everything iPhone can do, and more (well, it might be lacking in the music/video-department, but still). I had SSH-client in my Communicator for remote server administration for example. And during the keynote, SJ compared iPhone to Nokia E61 (E62 in USA), so they are more or less comparable. My coworker has been using the E61 for months and it's a rock-solid device.

Yes, iPhone has a layer of candy not found on those Nokias. But as far as actual functionality is concerned, they are quite similar.

California
Feb 15, 2007, 04:41 AM
Where do you think Apple got their UI from? Xerox. MAC OS is a 'copy'... if your going down that road.

Your post is a classic Fan Boi post if ever I saw one.

Fan Goil btw.

What are you on MR for if you don't think Apple is the best?

Start a Linux Rumors site and stop trolling.

encro
Feb 15, 2007, 06:26 AM
Fan Goil btw.

What are you on MR for if you don't think Apple is the best?

Start a Linux Rumors site and stop trolling.

I think the point of MacRumors is a place to discuss the latest information or products and not to have a single minded opinion standing around doing overzealous high fives with each other. Stella has been on MacRumors for a long time and if anything the extra opinion provided will make people think a little bit more about the product rather than instantly turning into an unwarranted celebration.

Its clear the iPhone is undoubtedly nice with the multitouch and accelerometer features but the rest is on a par with the industry and there are definitely devices that are better in other ways and more capable than the demo'd product at the MacWorld Keynote. I guess we will find out in June whether it lives up to the hype but personally for me the lack of 3rd party applications and unavailable as a modern 3G cellular network mobile makes the iPhone a dramatic backward step for me personally. That and the fact it won't be available here in Australia until December 2007.

Evangelion
Feb 15, 2007, 07:10 AM
What are you on MR for if you don't think Apple is the best?

Are sites like these only meant for people who cream their pants every time SJ says something? If that is the case, it would get really boring really fast, since we would just have bunch of people declaring their undying love for something and patting each other on the back.

A healthy dose of sceptisism can be a good thing. It prevent anyone from getting too complacent.Yes, we can be Mac-users and like Apple-products, but that doesn't mean that we should have no room for differing opinions. And it doesn't mean that we should regard every single thing Apple does as the best thing since sliced bread. iPhone IS very very cool, and I'm certainly interested in it, both professionally and personally. But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't think "Hmmm, I can already do all that stuff, albeit with less iCandy...."

jsw
Feb 15, 2007, 08:54 AM
What are you on MR for if you don't think Apple is the best?
There is no requirement that members here consider Apple to be the best, and certainly not that they consider Apple to be infallible.

While we do not tolerate obvious trolls who come here simply to stir things up, there is nothing wrong with discussing flaws - real or perceived - in Apple's products, strategy, etc. As mentioned above, those who prefer Apple products but who see and admit to problems with them have more sway here than those who blindly love or hate them. Those who prefer non-Apple products but who see some plusses to Apple's stuff? Same thing.

whooleytoo
Feb 15, 2007, 09:37 AM
I love Apple and their products, but I'm SO SICK of this iPhone talk.

Well, you'd better get used to it. Given that the iPhone even has its own sub-forum, there are going to be LOTS of iPhone threads.

cbud
Feb 15, 2007, 12:01 PM
Where do you think Apple got their UI from? Xerox. MAC OS is a 'copy'... if your going down that road.

Your post is a classic Fan Boi post if ever I saw one.

Obviously we should listen and consider opposing views; you should have learned that in grammar school. We should have also been taught to respond to others politely, logically, and without 'name calling'. Please continue providing another view, but please also stop the hostility.

clevin
Feb 15, 2007, 12:17 PM
Obviously we should listen and consider opposing views; you should have learned that in grammar school. We should have also been taught to respond to others politely, logically, and without 'name calling'. Please continue providing another view, but please also stop the hostility.

well, as you can see, there is a reason for what he said, read the post he quoted, You might find that to be a little bit hostile too. and, to be frank, that post's content is unreasonable and oppose the facts and truth. I do encouraging ppl debate and make things clear, but to lesson other ppl with personal imagination, especially when its not true, is quite inappropriate, IMHO. And I don't think what he said is name calling, maybe u can show me some forum rules to confirm that.

Stella
Feb 15, 2007, 12:56 PM
I removed the original content of this post - clevin, above, sums what I wanted to say far better than I did.

( By the way, I do think we should listen to opposing views, I've got absolutely no problem with that ).
( I wasn't name calling either - I said the quoted post was Fan Boy-ish, not the poster!! :-) )

cbud
Feb 15, 2007, 01:01 PM
well, as you can see, there is a reason for what he said, read the post he quoted, You might find that to be a little bit hostile too. and, to be frank, that post's content is unreasonable and oppose the facts and truth. I do encouraging ppl debate and make things clear, but to lesson other ppl with personal imagination, especially when its not true, is quite inappropriate, IMHO. And I don't think what he said is name calling, maybe u can show me some forum rules to confirm that.

Both posts are written poorly, both a too emotional.

Calling others a "Fan Boy" every time they write a post to me is name calling. He does not do in a funny, or teasing way. I have felt pre-judged or classified by him as something just because I like the iPhone. Don't call me a Fan Boy. I enjoy Apple products, but I am not going to take a bullet for SJ. I am also very happy there is not a rule for 'name calling' or 'pre-judging', for that should have been taught in kindergarten.

clevin
Feb 15, 2007, 01:05 PM
Both posts are written poorly, both a too emotional.

Calling others a "Fan Boy" every time they write a post to me is name calling. He does not do in a funny, or teasing way. I have felt pre-judged or classified by him as something just because I like the iPhone. Don't call me a Fan Boy. I enjoy Apple products, but I am not going to take a bullet for SJ. I am also very happy there is not a rule for 'name calling' or 'pre-judging', for that should have been taught in kindergarten.

well, he is obviously referring to the guy who says windows is rip off of OSX, not referring to the ppl who like iPhone, there is really no reason to think that much, and I feel like I said too much stuff that has nothing to do with the topic of this post, so i will just stop here.

cbud
Feb 15, 2007, 01:13 PM
well, he is obviously referring to the guy who says windows is rip off of OSX, not referring to the ppl who like iPhone, there is really no reason to think that much, and I feel like I said too much stuff that has nothing to do with the topic of this post, so i will just stop here.

No the iPhone part happened to me 50 of so posts ago in this thread. I was labeled as a fan boy by him and treated as such. I say this cause it makes it no fun to come here when that happens.

California
Feb 15, 2007, 02:02 PM
Are sites like these only meant for people who cream their pants every time SJ says something? If that is the case, it would get really boring really fast, since we would just have bunch of people declaring their undying love for something and patting each other on the back.

A healthy dose of sceptisism can be a good thing. It prevent anyone from getting too complacent.Yes, we can be Mac-users and like Apple-products, but that doesn't mean that we should have no room for differing opinions. And it doesn't mean that we should regard every single thing Apple does as the best thing since sliced bread. iPhone IS very very cool, and I'm certainly interested in it, both professionally and personally. But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't think "Hmmm, I can already do all that stuff, albeit with less iCandy...."

Free speech hooray. Stella implies my posts are "fan boish" I'm implying his or her posts are trollish. His/her criticisms lack bite because they don't take in the totality of Apple's design ingenuity, Ive's/Job's deep understanding of "modern" as applicable to 20th century industrial design and the fact that no other company comes near to having the infinite design triumphs that constitute the track record of Apple, including the triumph of OSX. I consider the iPhone one of Apple's latest /best victories. Who else comes close?

This is not blind idolatry, rather giving honor where honor is due. And Apple -- with all of its flaws -- still is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of striving for excellence.

My biggest gripe with Apple remains its insistence upon using concentration camp style manufacturing plants in god forsaken China - which, in the long run, will prove to be a money and energy suck for the company despite the short term allure of labor camp wages.

Jobs is casting pearls before swine by allowing Asian reverse-engineers a crack at his hard won design triumphs through the backdoor of supposedly WTO regulated Chinese manufacturing "plants" (i.e. "slave labor camps"). Last night's feeble defense of the Chinese iPhone rip off by the miniOne CEO only underscores Jobs' miscalculation.

concordeBOAC
Feb 15, 2007, 02:25 PM
Whilst many people will probably buy these "cheap imitations", it would be nice to see another company trying to innovate, instead of just relying on Apple for their Research and Development. At the end of the day, Windows Mobile Sucks (I haven't tried Windows Mobile 6 though! - but it doesn't look that nice), Apple looks as if they have got a winner, And I will be a customer for sure, when the iPhone is released in the UK.


As cwedl noted, apart from Apple, how many companies out there do you see being truly innovative ? How many have shown the foresight that Apple has. How many companies have taken existing technology and changed the way we all use it ? Its easy to copy. What has Microsoft produced in recent years that could be considered as truly innovative ? If Apple didnt exist today, just think of the choices we would have. Good grief ! Its as if companies wait for Jobs keynote just to see what they have to do to follow...... Just look at this coming year and see what the major manufactures come up with...nothing really innovative I am sure ( Apple not included ) Of course, if you believe all those great designs ol' Stevie submits to China are safe and free from replication, well, just watch how quicky China brings out similar products ! :) :apple:

rxse7en
Feb 15, 2007, 06:53 PM
That Sammy F700 is sweet! I love my Macs, but if that Sammy comes in around $100 with a contract...I'm buying. Personally, I just can't see spending $500 on a phone. Not trying to belittle the iPhone--I would still love one--but I have pretty simple needs for a phone and the love of a bargain:
1. High speed modem capability for when I'm traveling
2. I REALLY want a decent phone camera--nice glass with at least 3.2mp and autofocus. Get tired of carrying around the D70, an Elph AND a cell phone.
3. The ability to read ebooks
4. Multimedia capabilities would be cool--perhaps being able to play Divx movies off of an SD card
5. Ability to install apps and games at will as I don now with Symbian S60.

I've enjoyed my Nokia Symbian OS phones. My current one has been great, though it's getting very scratched up, the camera sucks and I'd like a bigger screen. Symbian's a great little OS for phones. I'm not a cell-o-phile by any stretch, but I lucked into getting a phone with a Symbian OS and it's capabilities have amazed me. Being able to do things on it I never even knew could be done on a phone. If you're a newb when it comes to phone it's worth looking into Symbian based phones.

I can't really attest to Windows Mobile phones, though I do own a Dell Axim that never gets used because the OS kept crashing and I just got really tired of reinstalling it and trying to get it to sync to the Macs. I'm sure that's changed in the two years since I've put it away. I have no experience with Blackberry. But DAMN(!) I would love to have an iPhone with a decent camera and a somewhat open software capability.

Sorry about the rambling.

:D

bloodycape
Feb 15, 2007, 07:00 PM
I just saw some pics that were taken from the new HTC TyTN phone, and wow they looked pretty good for a phone. I think I maybe getting the CDMA version of it.

chukronos
Feb 15, 2007, 08:41 PM
The f700 looks great. I much prefer tactile keys over touch. I guess I'm old fashioned.

Evangelion
Feb 16, 2007, 01:35 AM
This is not blind idolatry, rather giving honor where honor is due.

Well, you did basically say "what are you doing on this forum if you do not love Apple and everything it does?". I have seen it before in these forums. Someone says something remotely negative about Apple or their products, and someone comes along and says "why are you on these forums? Go to some PC/Linux/Whatever-forum instead!". And every single time I see it, it pisses me off.

That kind of attitude encourages groupthink. No dissenting opinions are allowed. People with such opinions should go to some different forums, instead of coming to this forum. What ever happened to "Think Different"? It went to some PC-related forum, that's what.

And Apple -- with all of its flaws -- still is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of striving for excellence.

Irrelevant and besides the point

DMann
Feb 16, 2007, 04:13 AM
Nobody will get close to replicating Apple's intuitive UI. They may have touch-screen abilities but that doesn't make them iPhones.

True - the iPhone has been 2 years in the making, leaps and
bounds ahead of what has been surfacing recently.

The f700 looks great. I much prefer tactile keys over touch. I guess I'm old fashioned.

Funny, no one has said anything about the RAZRs lack of tactile
keys (minimal) As far as texting is concerned, voice recognition
will indeed play a future role.

California
Feb 18, 2007, 02:00 AM
Well, you did basically say "what are you doing on this forum if you do not love Apple and everything it does?". I have seen it before in these forums. Someone says something remotely negative about Apple or their products, and someone comes along and says "why are you on these forums? Go to some PC/Linux/Whatever-forum instead!". And every single time I see it, it pisses me off.

That kind of attitude encourages groupthink. No dissenting opinions are allowed. People with such opinions should go to some different forums, instead of coming to this forum. What ever happened to "Think Different"? It went to some PC-related forum, that's what.



Irrelevant and besides the point

Apple's excellence is the point.

Apple has already thought very different and people are copying it.

I'm attracted by Apple's excellence and humbly presume other MR members are, too. What's wrong with that?

Whatever, the chinese need to foment their own creativity instead of running concentration camp body part mills, counterfeiting other people's intellectual property and stop the arms build up on the Taiwan Strait and the invisible helping hand to Kim Jong Ill N. Korean tyrant's murderous ways. They are just perpetuating economic warfare against the West and it bothers me that they are screwing with Apple's patents while Bush whistles up a rope at the whole mess. I can live without 99 cent stores and their Chinese-made crap, but not Apple.

ocap
Feb 20, 2007, 04:26 AM
Back in 2001 a Swedish company presented a new cellphone. The first prototypes were shown in 2002 and the phone was awailble for the public in 2004.

Back in 2002 it didnt get that great reviews ( http://testcentret.idg.se/produkt.asp?pID=4607 )
For you who dont speak swedish the article says that its missing Java, vibrator, mms, e-mail and so on. The manufacturer said that thes features were gonna be availeble later with softwareupgrades (and they were.. well some of them anyway), the reviewers claim that the sound was terible (i dont think it was that bad)

So, Why am i posting this?

The Pros of the phone was that it got a SD-memorycardslot and came with a 64mb memorycard (were the phones software is locaded. of course you could upgrade both software and memorycard) you watch mpegs (on that tiny screen), listen to mp3s, the phone have a 4-way button and, yes, its got a touchscreen.

(Not shure how mac compatible it is thou :) )

Gizmodo 2004:
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/bydate/2004/10/
Then ":apple: + F" and search for neonode


http://www.neonode.com/


Edit: to comment the above discussion, of course apple is the best. But they are not perfect.
I absolutley love apple (even got an apple-tattoo), but hey, ive had problems with my macs and ipods. Those few times i dont swear at them, they are like my children and hey, the´re only human ;)

bigwig
Feb 25, 2007, 02:13 PM
I don't like Apple's limited list of carriers. Where I live Cingular/ATT is worthless because they have lousy reception in many places, including where I live. Plus the iPhone won't have a CDMA version, so I can't use it with my current favorite carrier, MetroPCS ($45/month + tax, unlimited local & long-distance, unlimited text and pictures).

As to the iPhone's camera, what's the big deal about a camera anyway? I'd much rather have an iPhone with improved (a) battery capacity, (b) storage capacity, and/or (c) RF performance. Apple, please dump the stupid camera or make an iPhone without one.