No homophobia in sports?

[leekohler]

Whoa, it doesn't usually get this obvious.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sfl-215hardaway,1,4003389.story?coll=chi-sportstop-hed

A week after retired center John Amaechi became the first active or former NBA player to publicly acknowledge he was gay, one of the most popular players in Heat franchise history offered a blunt view on homosexuality Wednesday during a radio interview.

Former Heat guard Tim Hardaway, who had been making public appearances for the NBA, said on Miami-based 790 The Ticket he would not have tolerated a gay player on his team and would have asked to have been traded in such a situation or would have asked to have the gay teammate be traded.

"Well, you know, I hate gay people," Hardaway said near the close of an interview that mostly focused on his tenure with the Heat and the team's current state. "I let it be known, I don't like gay people. I don't like to be around gay people.

"Yeah, I'm homophobic. I don't like it. It shouldn't be in the world for that or in the United States for that. So, yeah, I don't like it."

After the NBA learned of Hardaway's comments, a league spokesman said Hardaway had been removed from further league-related appearances.

"It is inappropriate for him to be representing us given the disparity between his views and ours," NBA Commissioner David Stern said in a statement to the Sun-Sentinel.

Hardaway was listed Tuesday as an "NBA Legend" when the league launched its NBA FIT program at the YMCA of Southern Nevada and had been part of the NBA's Community Caravan leading up to Sunday's All-Star Game in Las Vegas.

Hardaway played for the Heat from 1996 to 2001.

Shortly after arriving in Las Vegas, agent Henry Thomas, who also represents Heat guard Dwyane Wade, issued a statement through his office from Hardaway that read, "I want to apologize for my comments yesterday regarding gays. My comments were offensive and I regret making them. I'm sorry to anyone I have offended."

However, when contacted by Channel 4 before that statement was issued, Hardaway reiterated the comments he made in the radio interview.

"I don't condone it. And if people got problems with it, I'm sorry. I'm saying I can't stand being around that person, knowing that they sleep with somebody of the same sex," he told the television station, adding he would not talk to a gay family member.

When asked in the radio interview about how he would have dealt with a gay teammate, Hardaway responded, "First of all, I wouldn't want him on my team. And second of all, if he was on my team, you know, I would really distance myself from him because I don't think that is right."

[adrianblaine]

People tend to hate in others what they hate in themselves... Wasn't there a pastor who did the same thing? He condemned homosexuality and then was turned in by a male prostitute?

[leekohler]

People tend to hate in others what they hate in themselves... Wasn't there a pastor who did the same thing? He condemned homosexuality and then was turned in by a male prostitute?

Persh the thought! Are you suggesting Hardaway might be...a sissy? :)

[adrianblaine]

Persh the thought! Are you suggesting Hardaway might be...a sissy? :)

I was suggesting that! Not that he has ever acted on it, but those secure with their own sexuality tend to not be so uncomfortable around those that are different right? I'm sure there have been studies about this, it's kind of interesting.

[gauchogolfer]

People tend to hate in others what they hate in themselves... Wasn't there a pastor who did the same thing? He condemned homosexuality and then was turned in by a male prostitute?

Yep, the one and only Ted Haggard, from Colorado Springs.

[zimv20]

"i hate gay people." sheesh, what is this, mississippi in the 40's? has mr hardaway no sense of irony?

anyway, here's the question with which i'm wrestling: is this approach a better one than masking one's homophobia?

i'm tending towards "yes".

[leekohler]

"i hate gay people." sheesh, what is this, mississippi in the 40's? has mr hardaway no sense of irony?

anyway, here's the question with which i'm wrestling: is this approach a better one than masking one's homophobia?

i'm tending towards "yes".

I think so too. Tell me exactly what you think, then I can make sure I'm beating the crap out of you for the precisely right reasons. ;)

[Sun Baked]

Yep, the one and only Ted Haggard, from Colorado Springs.

But there is a group that "cured" him.

yeah right.

[jelloshotsrule]

tim hardaway is a quality individual. :rolleyes:

[leekohler]

So I guess now he'll go through sensitivity training. Which basically means, you can think what you want, just don't say it. :rolleyes: I doubt the root issues will ever be addressed.

[nbs2]

So I guess now he'll go through sensitivity training. Which basically means, you can think what you want, just don't say it. :rolleyes: I doubt the root issues will ever be addressed.

Which brings the question: what is better/worse - The guy that expresses his views or the one that holds them close to the vest?

[adrianblaine]

Which brings the question: what is better/worse - The guy that expresses his views or the one that holds them close to the vest?

That's already been stated by zimv20.


anyway, here's the question with which i'm wrestling: is this approach a better one than masking one's homophobia?

i'm tending towards "yes".

To which leekohler wants to know...

... exactly what you think, then I can make sure I'm beating the crap out of you for the precisely right reasons. ;)

[Kalns]

I'm curious, if someone didn't agreee with homosexuality but didn't condemn the individuals who practice it, would you consider them homophobic too?

[nbs2]

That's already been stated by zimv20.

To which leekohler wants to know...

I saw that, and yet I missed it. I really must be tired and/or bored.

[adrianblaine]

I'm curious, if someone didn't agreee with homosexuality but didn't condemn the individuals who practice it, would you consider them homophobic too?

I would say no, because homophobia is a fear of someone who's homosexual. If we were phobic of everything we didn't agree with, it would be a sad, sad life.

[MBHockey]

All this proves is that NBA players are generally idiots. But we already knew that.

[nbs2]

I would say no, because homophobia is a fear of someone who's homosexual. If we were phobic of everything we didn't agree with, it would be a sad, sad life.

Then what term/suffix is applicable?

[mactastic]

What an ass...

[leekohler]

I'm curious, if someone didn't agreee with homosexuality but didn't condemn the individuals who practice it, would you consider them homophobic too?

kalns- disagreeing with gay people is like disagreeing with left-handed people. It makes no sense. Left-handed people don't have to write with their left hand, do they? But it's natural for them and hurts no one. This is at least how I see it these days. And at least this guy is honest.

[adrianblaine]

Then what term/suffix is applicable?

I have no idea. What do you call someone you don't agree with but are not afraid of? No one completely agrees with anyone else, so I would call them human. :)

[Swarmlord]

Sounds like he's not very articulate. :D

[swiftaw]

I'd be interested in what people have to say about this reaction.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2764353&name=broussard_chris

[nbs2]

I have no idea. What do you call someone you don't agree with but are not afraid of? No one completely agrees with anyone else, so I would call them human. :)

Ahh...but explain that to everybody with a "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality. I see it everywhere, including my workplace.

As an OT example, if I don't believe in ignoring our borders, I'm xenophobic. If I believe in the economic growth provided by immigration, I'm all for letting in terrorists.

Back on topic - I don't think we can ever eliminate people's feelings regarding homosexuality. Is it possible to move beyond bigot and queer and reach human.

kalns- disagreeing with gay people is like disagreeing with left-handed people. It makes no sense. Left-handed people don't have to write with their left hand, do they? But it's natural for them and hurts no one. This is at least how I see it these days. And at least this guy is honest.

I think it is human nature to disagree with we find different. To me it is natural to believe in God, but take a look at this forum and see how many people think that such belief is abnormal, stupid or wrong and that those who do believe shouldn't be in the United States or in the world. I can think of other groups in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_Order_(Mormonism))that have endured worse than verbal hatred.

[Kalns]

kalns- disagreeing with gay people is like disagreeing with left-handed people. It makes no sense. Left-handed people don't have to write with their left hand, do they? But it's natural for them and hurts no one. This is at least how I see it these days. And at least this guy is honest.

Sure, I understand that view point. It's just not consistent with my worldview. Of course you know I don't have any ill will towards you because of your sexual preferences. You and I get along quite well. I just believe that we'll all be made to answer for our sins when we die according to my beliefs.

I've been studying some really fascinating stuff in my classes (I'm a religion major if you'll recall) and I wish I could bring it up here, but I know what kind of reaction it'd be met with.

[bousozoku]

Whatever! He's probably been in the locker room with more gay or bi men than he's realised.

It's just silly that he's apologised for saying it in the first place. It doesn't really mean anything because he wouldn't have said the original statement if he didn't really feel it.

People need to think before they speak.

[adrianblaine]

Ahh...but explain that to everybody with a "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality. I see it everywhere, including my workplace.

As an OT example, if I don't believe in ignoring our borders, I'm xenophobic. If I believe in the economic growth provided by immigration, I'm all for letting in terrorists.

Back on topic - I don't think we can ever eliminate people's feelings regarding homosexuality. Is it possible to move beyond bigot and queer and reach human.

The only word that comes to my mind is ignorance.

The older (and hopefully wiser) I get, the more I realize that there are really very few things that people should get angry about. Things like cruelty, murder, theft, abuse (anything that harms another person) etc... are the only things that should cause us to be truly angry with another person. Almost everything else is a difference of opinion and should be treated as such.

It would be very hard to rid people's feelings toward homosexuality, but I don't think it will be impossible, just lots (and lots) of time.

[Kalns]

As an extension of my earlier question, what exactly makes someone a bigot? Where is the line crossed between disagreement and bigotry?

[tobefirst]

As an extension of my earlier question, what exactly makes someone a bigot? Where is the line crossed between disagreement and bigotry?

By definition, it's when one stubbornly believes their views to be superior or above another persons.

[mactastic]

By definition, it's when one stubbornly believes their views to be superior or above another persons.
Oh ****! I'm a 24/7 bigot then! :D

[Kalns]

I find that definition lacking. Aren't all views held because the individual believes them to be superior to another (or several other) views?

[adrianblaine]

As an extension of my earlier question, what exactly makes someone a bigot? Where is the line crossed between disagreement and bigotry?

In the thesaurus widget, another word for bigot is zealot (fanatic, extremest). So to me it crosses the line when you no longer just disagree with someone, but are actively persecuting (oppress, abuse, victimize, mistreat, torment, torture...) that person because of their belief.

[Kalns]

Ah, now that's a much better definition! However, in light of that, I think the word bigot is thrown around far too casually. Of course it seems a rather subjective thing as to what is considered abuse or mistreatment versus good old everyday idiocy.

In this case specifically I would say yes he does come off very much so as homophobic, BUT I would be hesitant to call him a bigot because I merely see a man whose words are motivated by a kind of fear and not a man who is actively seeking to persecute gays.

[tobefirst]

In the thesaurus widget, another word for bigot is zealot (fanatic, extremest). So to me it crosses the line when you no longer just disagree with someone, but are actively persecuting (oppress, abuse, victimize, mistreat, torment, torture...) that person because of their belief.

Also from the Dictionary, noted under "zealot:" ...it is the bigot who causes the most trouble, exhibiting obstinate and often blind devotion to his or her beliefs and opinions. In contrast to fanatic and zealot, the term bigot implies intolerance and contempt for those who do not agree.

[mactastic]

In this case specifically I would say yes he does come off very much so as homophobic, BUT I would be hesitant to call him a bigot because I merely see a man whose words are motivated by a kind of fear and not a man who is actively seeking to persecute gays.
He said that had he known, he would have sought to have the gay teammate traded away.

That sounds like an action that would be persecutorial towards gays...

[Kalns]

He said that had he known, he would have sought to have the gay teammate traded away.

That sounds like an action that would be persecutorial towards gays...

I can understand that point of view, but again, looking at it, it's motivated by homophobia, not neccessarily by a desire to persecute.

[mactastic]

I can understand that point of view, but again, looking at it, it's motivated by homophobia, not neccessarily by a desire to persecute.
So Caesar was only motivated by Christo-phobia, not necessarily by a desire to persecute Christians?

[tobefirst]

So Caesar was only motivated by Christo-phobia, not necessarily by a desire to persecute Christians?

I agree with you.

Why can fear not be a motivator to persecute? What about hate? Hardaway: "I hate gay people."

[adrianblaine]

In contrast to fanatic and zealot, the term bigot implies intolerance and contempt for those who do not agree.

But it isn't as simple as you stated earlier.

By definition, it's when one stubbornly believes their views to be superior or above another persons.

Intolerance implies a certain level of retaliation and not mere disagreement, otherwise most people would be bigots. Who doesn't think their views are superior? No one think their views are less superior to everyone elses.

[Kalns]

Yeah, you guys are right. I guess there is enough evidence there to call him a bigot.

[tobefirst]

But it isn't as simple as you stated earlier.



Intolerance implies a certain level of retaliation and not mere disagreement, otherwise most people would be bigots. Who doesn't think their views are superior? No one think their views are less superior to everyone elses.

Fair enough. I'd agree with you on that.

[Sayhey]

Timmy, Timmy, Timmy. How I used to love to watch you play back in the Run TMC days. Great point guard. Now, I see further proof, not that anyone really needs it, that having great skills on the court doesn't necessarily translate to intelligence or character off it. What a stupid, hateful fool you've turned out to be. Ah, well.... :(

[leekohler]

I think it is human nature to disagree with we find different. To me it is natural to believe in God, but take a look at this forum and see how many people think that such belief is abnormal, stupid or wrong and that those who do believe shouldn't be in the United States or in the world. I can think of other groups in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_Order_(Mormonism))that have endured worse than verbal hatred.

Oh- so since it hasn't gotten that bad, we shouldn't be concerned? Ok, I'll wait til all our rights have been voted away, then I'll say something. :rolleyes: You might want to brush up on your Holocaust education too- it wasn't just Jews in those camps, we were there as well. The US also has a nasty history of denying us employment, having us imprisoned, using electro-shock and hormone therapy on us amongst other things. I'd say that goes well beyond verbal.

Here's the thing man- I don't give a **** what anybody thinks of me or any other gay person. What I can't stand is when people use their biases and beliefs to deny others their rights. When constitutional amendments get made against Christians marrying and having kids in the US, you can come cry to me about your persecution complex. I'm sorry but there's no comparison here.

Also, this basketball player said he'd try to get a teammate traded over being gay. That's totally ridiculous and shouldn't be tolerated.

[SpookTheHamster]

What bugs me is that the general public will probably let this slide after his "apology".

[zimv20]

kalns --

this was a page or two back, when you asked what a bigot is, and i haven't seen an answer i find satisfying.

imo, a bigot is a person who judges someone else not for who that person is, but by which group(s) that person belongs to.

[Kalns]

That makes sense Zim. Kind of like a "if you're not with me, you're against me" attitude?

[zimv20]

That makes sense Zim. Kind of like a "if you're not with me, you're against me" attitude?
i think it's just simply a dismissive one, at its most benign. at the extreme ends, you get people like racial separatists and those who'd want to, say, imprison gays.

and you'd like to think that when a bigot makes friends with someone from their "dislike group", that would change their minds. but i haven't seen that, it's usually something like, "well bob's a good guy, but i still don't like gays." an indefensible position, imo.

[Kalns]

Do you think it's in part due to a lack of ability to express what they don't like? For instance, to take your example, the guy may say"....but I still don't like gays." but maybe what he means is "I'm uncomfortable with the idea of same sex attraction" or "I think it's immoral and I don't enjoy being in those situations."

Does that change anything in your mind, or is it all the same essentially?

[zimv20]

Do you think it's in part due to a lack of ability to express what they don't like?
imo, it's not really an issue w/ how one expresses something, it's a character flaw. some combination of anger, frustration, close-mindedness, i reckon it varies by person. and conditioning, too, i don't want to leave that out.

when i hear someone refer to "welfare mothers", i don't think they're having any trouble communicating their biases.

[leekohler]

Do you think it's in part due to a lack of ability to express what they don't like? For instance, to take your example, the guy may say"....but I still don't like gays." but maybe what he means is "I'm uncomfortable with the idea of same sex attraction" or "I think it's immoral and I don't enjoy being in those situations."

Does that change anything in your mind, or is it all the same essentially?

See this is what I don't get- why does any of that matter? Is the gay person having sex with this guy? Is he having sex in front of him? No. So being uncomfortable seems to be more about what going on with that particular person. They need to check themselves and perhaps realize that the problem lies within, not with the gay person.

It's the same as when I moved here to Chicago from rural Ohio. The first time I got on the train everyone on it was African American. I was not just uncomfortable, I was scared. Did anybody do anything to me? No. I then realized what a jerk I was. Here I was thinking I was gonna be all cool and urban, and I had all this prejudice inside me. I have never been more ashamed of myself. Needless to say, I got over it fast.

[Kalns]

See this is what I don't get- why does any of that matter? Is the gay person having sex with this guy? Is he having sex in front of him? No. So being uncomfortable seems to be more about what going on with that particular person. They need to check themselves and perhaps realize that the problem lies within, not with the gay person.

It's the same as when I moved here to Chicago from rural Ohio. The first time I got on the train everyone on it was African American. I was not just uncomfortable, I was scared. Did anybody do anything to me? No. I then realized what a jerk I was. Here I was thinking I was gonna be all cool and urban, and I had all this prejudice inside me. I have never been more ashamed of myself. Needless to say, I got over it fast.

No it doesn't matter and you're exactly right. If it's any consolation I can relate well. When I first became a Christian three years ago I hadn't ever been exposed to any of the more shall we say outward expressions of faith and it made me uncomfortable to be around those people. BUT as I increased in understanding, I found my natural defenses went down as well. I'd think that'd be the same for most any situation.

[obeygiant]

Is it too idealistic to say that being tolerant is accepting people who dont like you?

[Thomas Veil]

It's the same as when I moved here to Chicago from rural Ohio. The first time I got on the train everyone on it was African American. I was not just uncomfortable, I was scared. Did anybody do anything to me? No. I then realized what a jerk I was. Here I was thinking I was gonna be all cool and urban, and I had all this prejudice inside me. I have never been more ashamed of myself. Needless to say, I got over it fast.Funny you mentioned that, lee. I was talking about something very similar with a co-worker regarding the Hardaway situation.

I grew up in a very white neighborhood, went to a very white grade school, then a very white high school. But at the college level, I found myself at an urban campus where 65-70% of the population was black. Can you say "culture shock", children? It seemed to me (at the time) that they all talked and behaved so differently from what I was used to. I wasn't in fear of imminent attack or anything, but I have to admit to being rather wary.

But this was (thank goodness) back in the late '60s, when racial tolerance was being talked about constantly. I honestly think that helped me get my head on straight. Back then I kept telling myself to get over it. And I take that stance today regarding gays. If I ever found myself standing close to two men who were kissing, I think I'd have to admit I'd find it off-putting, but I would simply tell myself, "Grow up and get over it."

Life is too short to let yourself get freaked out by everyone who's different from you.

[leekohler]

Is it too idealistic to say that being tolerant is accepting people who dont like you?

Yes. And you're looking for a justification for hatred. You're trying to say that we should just accept that people hate us and pass laws against us, and that's OK- they're just doing what they think is right. :rolleyes: Your logic is messed up. Just for once I'd love to see you add something constructive to a conversation rather than simply trying to subvert it. But hey- that's your MO. You don't look for solutions, just ways to stir up the pot. You should be a news reporter.

[aquajet]

Is it too idealistic to say that being tolerant is accepting people who dont like you?

If by idealistic you mean unrealistic, then yes.

[adrianblaine]

Yes. And you're looking for a justification for hatred. You're trying to say that we should just accept that people hate us and pass laws against us, and that's OK- they're just doing what they think is right.

The word "tolerant" does imply that there still could be a level of hate. I had never thought of that before. You can hate someone and still tolerate them. The most idealistic view would be for everyone to move beyond tolerance, and the only word I can think of that is beyond that is "love". That is idealistic.

And in that world, people would not care what other's race, gender, or sexual preference was, because if you love someone, those things don't matter. And no one would tell someone that they are going to hell. Sorry, I can't give that one up for some reason, I just completely disagree that anyone has the right to say that to anyone else. *Letting go*

[leekohler]

Excellent article from the Sun-Times on this subject.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/telander/259918,CST-SPT-rick16.article



Tim Hardaway, the retired five-time NBA All-Star and a Chicago native, was the guest.

Hoops was the topic.

The interview was about over. Commercials beckoned.

''I almost forgot to ask the question,'' Le Batard said. ''I would have forgotten if my producer hadn't whispered in my ear.''

And what was it the producer whispered?

Ask Tim what he thinks about John Amaechi and gays.

Hello, roadside bomb.

''I hate gay people,'' Hardaway said. ''I am homophobic. I don't like [homosexuality]. It shouldn't be in the world or in the United States.''

Amaechi, of course, is the former NBA player from England who recently came out as a homosexual, saying pro sport is not ready for an active gay male athlete. Too much prejudice, Amaechi said. Too much danger.

In a way, the public has been waiting for a sporting face who would become the poster for gay hatred, the face of the intolerant and horrified and cruel that Amaechi and others like him have said exists on a grand scale.

And here -- out of the blue -- he came.

Tim Hardaway -- the hard-working point guard who, in 1991-92, averaged 23 points, 10 assists, four rebounds and two steals for the Golden State Warriors; who won a gold medal in the 1994 World Championship; who won an Olympic gold in 2000 -- he was it.

Le Batard freaked.

''I didn't know how to handle it,'' he told me on the phone Thursday night. ''I should have asked 10 more minutes' worth of questions. Instead, I went to the break. I was just stunned.''

Even more stunning to Le Batard was his ensuing Thursday radio show.

''It blew my mind,'' he said, ''all the people who called in and agreed with Hardaway.''

'It's fear and ignorance'
Clearly, we have a problem in this country.

It seems likely that strict interpretation of religious tracts such as the Bible and the Koran have contributed to the lack of tolerance shown to homosexuals, because the word of God often is used in judgment against them by critics.

But gays are everywhere, and they are not predatory and they are not freaks and they did not make themselves, and if tolerance and understanding are not part of religion, then what is religion itself?

''It's like the only thing people [like Hardaway] think about gays is that gays want to have sex with them,'' Le Batard said. ''It's fear and ignorance.''

Perhaps we need to be reminded that sexual assault and harassment laws cut evenly, in all directions, all ways.

If an NBA player has a problem undressing in a locker room with a gay teammate present, he can wear a towel. Female reporters are routinely present in male locker rooms these days. Trainers are often female. Somehow heterosexual male athletes deal with that.

Indeed, it seems that until someone has an ''out'' relative/friend/boss/ mentor/teammate, he or she need not confront the actual humanity of homosexuals and can view the group, generally, as outcasts who only want to make life unpleasant for straights.

Billy Bean, the former major-league baseball player who came out after his playing career, told me a couple of years ago that he didn't ''choose'' to be gay, that he was, in fact, confounded as a youth by his feelings, that as a handsome, talented multisport high school star in California, his life would have been so much easier if only he were heterosexual.

But he wasn't. And he isn't.

Former NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue has an openly gay son, Drew. Drew and his male partner are shown in the Tagliabues' Christmas cards along with the straight members of the family, and the world has not stopped, nor have NFL players started wearing tutus.

Tough old Paul recently was honored by P-FLAG, the national organization for friends and family of lesbians and gays, because of his donation of money and time to the cause. And if Tags can be understanding of people unlike himself, who can't be?

Homophobes in the cross hairs
Those who don't want to believe gays are alive and well and socially and politically active in this country might want to check out the March issue of the Atlantic, wherein gay, near-billionaire computer-software businessman Tim Gill is profiled.

Gill and other very rich gay (and many straight) men are engaging in grassroots, scientifically orchestrated election donations, backing state politicians of either Democratic or Republican party who are interested in promoting ''gay equality'' and destroying knee-jerk prejudice.

Gill (who founded publishing-software giant Quark Inc.) and his stealthy proponents, such as Jeff Soref, heir to the Master Lock fortune, have blown up the careers of a number of openly homophobic elected officials.

And more are to come. They guarantee it.

''My goal is to see that all Americans are treated equally, regardless of sexuality,'' Gill says.

Maybe Hardaway, who has apologized for his statements, should simply do some history reading instead.

In case he hasn't noticed, minorities in this country will have their day.

[adrianblaine]

I am still interested in the subject at hand, and I apologize to leekohler since I was part of the divergence. I know you want to keep discussing, but is there something in particular? I know you've said to get back on topic a few times (so I am :) ) but you never mention what you are getting at. Unless of course you are just waiting for us to naturally get to it...


''It blew my mind,'' he said, ''all the people who called in and agreed with Hardaway.''

'It's fear and ignorance'
Clearly, we have a problem in this country.

I'm tired of people getting so offended about everything. No one believes the same as anyone else, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just because someone believes differently than you do that does not give grounds to hate, oppress and put them down. The best example I can think of to put toward any was the Amish School Shooting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_school_shooting) back in October.

CNN reported a grandfather of one of the murdered Amish girls said of the killer on the day of the murder: "We must not think evil of this man."

If people can forgive someone who murdered their children, I think we can find it in ourselves to love anyone, no matter what their beliefs. What is keeping Hardaway and people like him for accepting people for who they are? It is fear and ignorance, but I don't know how to change that.

[tobefirst]

I must say that I was *fascinated* by this subject yesterday. (The Tim Hardaway thing...not the kalns thing.) (: I listen to sports talk radio on my way to work and on my way home, but I listened for about 8 hours during work, too...just to hear the fall out, and everyone's opinions and such.

Before this whole thing, I was of the belief that the sporting arena would be one of the last places we would have tolerance towards homosexuals, and men in particular. After this whole thing, I am just more grounded in that belief, unfortunately.

I heard all sorts of comments yesterday. One that stood out was a comparison to Jackie Robinson. Being neither black nor homosexual, I cannot fully appreciate how well the two would compare, but I thought the comparison was interesting nonetheless.

Furthermore, I do not agree with what Tim Hardaway has to say, but I appreciate that he has a right to say it. As a result, he is automatically entitled to backlash for his actions. In this case, I like that, too. (:

One more thought: I would bet the farm that Tim Hardaway would have no problem with two lipstick lesbians. Strange, huh?

[psychofreak]

I think we should all live in harmony; christians, jews, racists, muslims, seeks, homophobes, Buddhists, taoists and everyone else...

I have to say that honestly, while I am not particularly keen on seeing anyone kiss in the street, my natural instinct with homosexual men kissing is one of [/trying not to be offensive] disgust [/failing miserably]...sorry, but this is the way I am, and others are.

Many people are wrongly informed about homosexuality, but many people have opinions. I plead with gay people to accept and not be outraged at others views, or accept that other people will be outraged with theirs. A minority should not strive for double standards.

[jelloshotsrule]

Many people are wrongly informed about homosexuality, but many people have opinions. I plead with gay people to accept and not be outraged at others views, or accept that other people will be outraged with theirs. A minority should not strive for double standards.

personally i don't have a big problem with you not wanting to see two guys kiss. the way i see it, it's something that is engrained in you (what is or isn't attractive), and while it may be not be a good thing to be "disgusted" by an act of real affection, i don't think it makes you bad or wrong.

however, you are asking gay people, people who are hated and mistreated for something they did not choose about themselves, to accept that others hate and mistreat them. no. accept x person's right to voice their disapproval? maybe. accept x person's actions to keep the gay people down? absolutely not.

[psychofreak]

personally i don't have a big problem with you not wanting to see two guys kiss. the way i see it, it's something that is engrained in you (what is or isn't attractive), and while it may be not be a good thing to be "disgusted" by an act of real affection, i don't think it makes you bad or wrong.

however, you are asking gay people, people who are hated and mistreated for something they did not choose about themselves, to accept that others hate and mistreat them. no. accept x person's right to voice their disapproval? maybe. accept x person's actions to keep the gay people down? absolutely not.
Of course I am in the wrong. Gay people do NOT deserve to be treated worse for their sexual preference.

I am not sure about this exact case, but if a manager thinks that his team would perform worse with a gay member due to homophobia from the other teammates, is it wrong for that manager to trade the gay player away, to benefit team performance, or should he be nice to the guy and suffer worse performance?

I think 'disgusted' was too strong a word, I apologize. I think the feeling I have is that I want to look away.

[leekohler]

I'm tired of people getting so offended about everything. No one believes the same as anyone else, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just because someone believes differently than you do that does not give grounds to hate, oppress and put them down.

I'm confused- are you saying that what Hardaway said was "just his opinion" and nobody should have been offended? Are you kidding? "I hate gay people", "it shouldn't be allowed in the world or the United States"- what about these statements could be construed as anything other than offensive? Not to mention the fact that the guy goes on to say how he would try to have a gay teammate traded. How is that not offensive?

[jelloshotsrule]

I'm confused- are you saying that what Hardaway said was "just his opinion" and nobody should have been offended? Are you kidding? "I hate gay people", "it shouldn't be allowed in the world or the United States"- what about these statements could be construed as anything other than offensive? Not to mention the fact that the guy goes on to say how he would try to have a gay teammate traded. How is that not offensive?

i agree that his opinion was unclear based on the quoted text. however, based on the latter part of that post, and his other posts, i'd have to guess that that was not his intended meaning at all. moreso that hardaway needs to learn to respect people who are different and not respond with hatred.

[psychofreak]

What I meant to object to (although it definitely came out wrong), was how so many gay people are so easily offended by people (read: idiots) who hate them.

In the UK and France we are having a big problem with muslims complaining at every so-called racist act, and I feel that outward homosexuals are displaying the same action.

Some of the world is not ready for gay pride just yet, let them come to terms with Brokeback Mountain, and then try and tell them that their colleague is gay.

[leekohler]

I am not sure about this exact case, but if a manager thinks that his team would perform worse with a gay member due to homophobia from the other teammates, is it wrong for that manager to trade the gay player away, to benefit team performance, or should he be nice to the guy and suffer worse performance?

Are you joking with this? Yeah, it's definitely wrong to trade a player away because some players may be uncomfortable with him. Are people on a team to have sex or play a game?

[psychofreak]

Are you joking with this? Yeah, it's definitely wrong to trade a player away because some players may be uncomfortable with him. Are people on a team to have sex or play a game?

Of course they are not there to have sex. Would you risk your team's performance (and a lot of $$$) in order to please a minority?

It is a manager's job to keep the team playing at its best, and this includes close bonding of players. Please accept that some people find it difficult to have that bond with gay people, and so the team may not play as well.

[jelloshotsrule]

Are people on a team to have sex or play a game?

guess it depends who you ask. ;)


yeah, psychofreak... i'd love to hear a list of examples of time when people (gay people in this case) overreacted and got upset over a tiny little thing like someone hating them. the problem is not so much hardaway's personal feelings, it's the fact that he is reaching a large audience, there are way too many people who share his feelings ("that shouldn't exist in this country or world"? what?!?). his feelings have ramifications beyond just a simple "i don't like you"

[leekohler]

Of course they are not there to have sex. Would you risk your team's performance (and a lot of $$$) in order to please a minority?

It is a manager's job to keep the team playing at its best, and this includes close bonding of players. Please accept that some people find it difficult to have that bond with gay people, and so the team may not play as well.

Well for that matter, why should gay people be allowed to have jobs at all? I mean, if everybody's so uncomfortable with us, aren't we the reason the companies aren't performing as well as they could? Give me a break, dude. That is lame.

[mactastic]

Are people on a team to have sex or play a game?Why can't it be both? :D

Seriously though, did all the Christians who think Hardaway should be allowed to have his opinion in peace say the same when Jesse Ventura said that organized religion was a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people? Or did they get all offended at his slam of them and speak out, saying that it wasn't right for someone to hate on a group of people like that?

[Kalns]

Where are the Christians defending Hardaway? Can you point them out to me?

[tobefirst]

Where are the Christians defending Hardaway? Can you point them out to me?

I'm a Christian, and, as an American, I believe he has a right to say what he did. I do, however, completely disagree with what he has to say. (:

[psychofreak]

Well for that matter, why should gay people be allowed to have jobs at all? I mean, if everybody's so uncomfortable with us, aren't we the reason the companies aren't performing as well as they could? Give me a break, dude. That is lame.

Come on...how many of your posts support rights of other minorities? But when I look at your thread history, a lot of them are pointing out homophobia. It shouldn't exist, but it does affect working teams.

I never said that 'everybody is uncomfortable', if you are so interested in rights of people then please show it by supporting anti-racism groups etc, instead of solely what seems to be your own cause...

[calculus]

if a manager thinks that his team would perform worse with a gay member due to homophobia from the other teammates, is it wrong for that manager to trade the gay player away

Yes it is, he should get rid of the homophobes instead.

[mactastic]

Where are the Christians defending Hardaway? Can you point them out to me?
Please. At the beginning of this you were trying to argue that Hardaway wasn't a bigot.

You want me to point one out for you? Point out your index finger and look in the mirror.

Can you honestly tell me you would have let Jesse Ventura's statement go with only a "he has a right to say it" comment? Or would you have wanted to use him as an example of anti-Christian attacks in this country?

[Kalns]

Please. At the beginning of this you were trying to argue that Hardaway wasn't a bigot.

You want me to point one out for you? Point out your index finger and look in the mirror.

Can you honestly tell me you would have let Jesse Ventura's statement go with only a "he has a right to say it" comment? Or would you have wanted to use him as an example of anti-Christian attacks in this country?

I said that he was for sure a homophobe and once convinced I said he was also a bigot. Does that sound like support to you? Not being so eager to condemn someone and support are different things Mac.

[leekohler]

Come on...how many of your posts support rights of other minorities? But when I look at your thread history, a lot of them are pointing out homophobia. It shouldn't exist, but it does affect working teams.

I never said that 'everybody is uncomfortable', if you are so interested in rights of people then please show it by supporting anti-racism groups etc, instead of solely what seems to be your own cause...

Excuse me, what? What are you talking about? I don't support other causes, what? Dude, you seriously don't know me. Do I have to give you a list of all the groups I've ever donated to? Would that make you happy?

You know what? Homophobia affects me personally, of course I point it out a lot. I want it gone.

[FleurDuMal]

It is a manager's job to keep the team playing at its best, and this includes close bonding of players. Please accept that some people find it difficult to have that bond with gay people, and so the team may not play as well.

OK, to take an amoral (as possible) perspective on the managers role.

The players are professional sportsmen. As far as I can tell, the essence of being professional is that you get on with the job at hand and do not let personal issues affect that performance. If a player won't/can't play as well with a gay man on the team, then he is not a very good professional sportsmen, in which case it is not the gay man who should be traded, it is the player not fulfilling his obligation as a professional.

A manager trading a player because he is gay and some players can't handle it would be as bad as sacking someone because he was gay. Although I'm not saying that anti-discrimination principles can never be qualified, for them to be qualified on the basis of performance of others would be absurd and would remove the teeth of such principles.

[mactastic]

OK, to take an amoral (as possible) perspective on the managers role.

The players are professional sportsmen. As far as I can tell, the essence of being professional is that you get on with the job at hand and do not let personal issues affect that performance. If a player won't/can't play as well with a gay man on the team, then he is not a very good professional sportsmen, in which case it is not the gay man who should be traded, it is the player not fulfilling his obligation as a professional.

A manager trading a player because he is gay and some players can't handle it would be as bad as sacking someone because he was gay. Although I'm not saying that anti-discrimination principles can never be qualified, for them to be qualified on the basis of performance of others would be absurd and would remove the teeth of such principles.
Not to mention the holy stink that would get raised were a player to have made the same comments Hardaway made, but about Christians. Imagine the uproar if an NBA player said he hated Christians and would seek to have any Christian player on his team traded because of his Christianity.

Oh yeah, they'd just sit there and say "he has a right to his opinion" and "well if it affects the cohesion of the team maybe it's justified".
:rolleyes:

[psychofreak]

OK, to take an amoral (as possible) perspective on the managers role.

The players are professional sportsmen. As far as I can tell, the essence of being professional is that you get on with the job at hand and do not let personal issues affect that performance. If a player won't/can't play as well with a gay man on the team, then he is not a very good professional sportsmen, in which case it is not the gay man who should be traded, it is the player not fulfilling his obligation as a professional.

A manager trading a player because he is gay and some players can't handle it would be as bad as sacking someone because he was gay. Although I'm not saying that anti-discrimination principles can never be qualified, for them to be qualified on the basis of performance of others would be absurd and would remove the teeth of such principles.

This has to be the best argument I have heard so far, but please remember that while the 'right thing to do' may be to sack the homophobes, this may not be the best option for the team (not in the moral sense), and a manager's job is to keep the team winning...homophobia seems to be decreasing to me, but I think that immediately responding with harsh remarks (like calling this moron a moron), however true they may be, just increases hatred and separation. I again ask you to look at the OP's past threads, a lot of which seem to be about his seeming obsessiveness with anti-homophobia. Anti-homophobia is of course right, but continually complaining does not help anyone.

[jelloshotsrule]

I again ask you to look at the OP's past threads, a lot of which seem to be about his seeming obsessiveness with anti-homophobia. Anti-homophobia is of course right, but continually complaining does not help anyone.

it seemed to help the blacks in the south put an end to a variety of racist laws and practices. they should've just quit their whining!

just because lee chooses to voice his opinions about gay rights doesn't mean he doesn't care about other issues (if you actually read all his posts you'd find plenty of anti-war concerns, etc). the fact is, he is a gay man and this single issue affects his life greatly, and directly. i am a straight white man. so while i can call myself a feminist or a gay rights supporter, i simply will not have the same authority as people within those groups clamoring for change. that won't shut me up, of course, nor should it. but it is natural for us to take most dearly the causes which affect us most directly.

[leekohler]

This has to be the best argument I have heard so far, but please remember that while the 'right thing to do' may be to sack the homophobes, this may not be the best option for the team (not in the moral sense), and a manager's job is to keep the team winning...homophobia seems to be decreasing to me, but I think that immediately responding with harsh remarks (like calling this moron a moron), however true they may be, just increases hatred and separation. I again ask you to look at the OP's past threads, a lot of which seem to be about his seeming obsessiveness with anti-homophobia. Anti-homophobia is of course right, but continually complaining does not help anyone.

That's right- I'm obsessed. :rolleyes: OK- Hardaway isn't a jerk. He just has an opinion about which no one has a right to speak, especially me because I obviously don't support any minority besides my own. :rolleyes: Dude, try walking in somebody else's shoes for a change. And no- I'm not gonna shut up until it's gone.

[mactastic]

That's right- I'm obsessed.
With men for some reason. :p

[psychofreak]

it seemed to help the blacks in the south put an end to a variety of racist laws and practices. they should've just quit their whining!

just because lee chooses to voice his opinions about gay rights doesn't mean he doesn't care about other issues (if you actually read all his posts you'd find plenty of anti-war concerns, etc). the fact is, he is a gay man and this single issue affects his life greatly, and directly. i am a straight white man. so while i can call myself a feminist or a gay rights supporter, i simply will not have the same authority as people within those groups clamoring for change. that won't shut me up, of course, nor should it. but it is natural for us to take most dearly the causes which affect us most directly.

I think that the people who helped the black population most were those who proved themselves to have intelligent opinions of their own, not just ridiculing others, like Dr Martin Luther King Jr.

Of course the OP has stronger opinions about homosexual rights (like my Judaism gives me stronger views about anti-semitism), but I feel that he should stop spending so much of his time pretty much telling people off.

There are idiots in the world, the best thing to do, I think, is to try and convince them that there is nothing wrong with being gay, and not by telling them off.

[leekohler]

I think that the people who helped the black population most were those who proved themselves to have intelligent opinions of their own, not just ridiculing others, like Dr Martin Luther King Jr.

Of course the OP has stronger opinions about homosexual rights (like my Judaism gives me stronger views about anti-semitism), but I feel that he should stop spending so much of his time pretty much telling people off.

There are idiots in the world, the best thing to do, I think, is to try and convince them that there is nothing wrong with being gay, and not by telling them off.

Look, I'm not a saint- never claimed to be. I'm human too. Yeah, I do get a bit emotional at times, and get frustrated and go off. After 20 years of "being nice" the frustration builds. So you're saying I have to be perfect while other people get to be jerks? And you're saying I have no intelligent opinions?

[compuwar]

Whatever! He's probably been in the locker room with more gay or bi men than he's realised.

It's just silly that he's apologised for saying it in the first place. It doesn't really mean anything because he wouldn't have said the original statement if he didn't really feel it.

People need to think before they speak.

He's apologized to those who are offended by him saying it, that seems perfectly fair to me- he doesn't seem to have apologized for feeling it, which would be hypocritical.

[Rower_CPU]

Broad ranging Christianity discussion not germane to the topic has been moved: split thread

[psychofreak]

Look, I'm not a saint- never claimed to be. I'm human too. Yeah, I do get a bit emotional at times, and get frustrated and go off. After 20 years of "being nice" the frustration builds. So you're saying I have to be perfect while other people get to be jerks? And you're saying I have no intelligent opinions?

I am sorry for how my posts came out...and I can see that there is much more homophobia nowadays than anti-semitism, but I try not to let the moronic neo-nazis get to me.

Your arguments at times (like mine...) seem to be based more on your frustration with others than looking at both sides of the coin. Many people have been brought up (IMO wrongly) to believe that homosexuality is pure evil, and just saying that it is 'bad' is a big step forward than previous opinions. I think that the next step will be for religious figures to slowly accept homosexuality and then the next stage will be for others to follow.

I am trying my best not to stereotype, or make rash decisions about you as a person, as I do not know you or what you have been through, but in my mind I group you with so many other single-issue people who have good causes, but fail to see that slight improvements over time are the only solution.

[adrianblaine]

I'm confused- are you saying that what Hardaway said was "just his opinion" and nobody should have been offended? Are you kidding? "I hate gay people", "it shouldn't be allowed in the world or the United States"- what about these statements could be construed as anything other than offensive? Not to mention the fact that the guy goes on to say how he would try to have a gay teammate traded. How is that not offensive?

i agree that his opinion was unclear based on the quoted text. however, based on the latter part of that post, and his other posts, i'd have to guess that that was not his intended meaning at all. moreso that hardaway needs to learn to respect people who are different and not respond with hatred.

Sorry about the misunderstanding! I did mean those who are offended by homosexuality (need not be so offended...). Of course, offended is not the word that really describes Hardaway's words. If what he said were in physical form, it would have been a violent beating. That's not just being offended, that's hostility.

[leekohler]

Sorry about the misunderstanding! I did mean those who are offended by homosexuality. Of course, offended is not the word that really describes Hardaway's words. If what he said were in physical form, it would have violent beating. That's not just being offended, that's hostility.

Ok, gotcha. ;)

[leekohler]

I am sorry for how my posts came out...and I can see that there is much more homophobia nowadays than anti-semitism, but I try not to let the moronic neo-nazis get to me.

Your arguments at times (like mine...) seem to be based more on your frustration with others than looking at both sides of the coin. Many people have been brought up (IMO wrongly) to believe that homosexuality is pure evil, and just saying that it is 'bad' is a big step forward than previous opinions. I think that the next step will be for religious figures to slowly accept homosexuality and then the next stage will be for others to follow.

I am trying my best not to stereotype, or make rash decisions about you as a person, as I do not know you or what you have been through, but in my mind I group you with so many other single-issue people who have good causes, but fail to see that slight improvements over time are the only solution.

Then I'll be dead before anything happens at the rate we're going. And religious leaders will be the last people to get on board.

[psychofreak]

And religious leaders will be the last people to get on board.

It only takes one priest to convince a community. I recently studied a Protestant priest in France during WW2 who convinced an anti-semitic community of collaborators to help the Jews, by reminding them of all the people who sheltered the Protestants in the religious clashes against the Catholics in France.

Although those heading the church etc will be 'the last people to get on board', I believe that one by one communities will accept gay people based on religious acceptance. It seems to me (as a Londoner) that the Bible is widely misunderstood by those who claim to follow it the most, and showing people that there is nothing against gay people from Jesus is the most effective method of convincing evangelical homophobes that their views are misguided.

[adrianblaine]

Then I'll be dead before anything happens at the rate we're going. And religious leaders will be the last people to get on board.

My pastor did a sermon once, and totally rallied against most main stream Christians and called for people to (can't remember the exact word) put that aside and love the person (truly care for them). Granted, he does not agree with it, but still, the fact that he put Christians on the same playing field (and not holding them above because Christians are sinners too. Some "Christians" are the worst sinners of all) would be considered a huge step forward in most Chuches (and some conservatives would say in the wrong direction, of course).

I have several homosexual friends, and I love them the same as all my other friends. I don't treat them any different and I certainly don't judge them. Hardaway proves that you react with hostility toward things you don't understand, and I think homosexuality is one of those things that are hard to understand for most people.

[solvs]

I'll bet he's just a latent homosexual himself.

Ok, he probably isn't. But everyone should keep saying they think he is. They should say everyone who's that bad is. Self haters. Should shut them up, but as mentioned, look at Ted Haggard.

[scem0]

It might shut them up, but I don't think it would do much good otherwise. Homophobia needs to be stopped at its source. Which, to a degree, I think is already happening. Kids, today, are a lot less homophobic than kids 20 years ago, then they were 40 years ago, etc. They're exposed to more homosexuality, and it's shown in a positive light more often. This is why I think it's so important for the media to represent homosexuals accurately. Corporations like MTV have done a lot of good because they've softened biases against homosexuality in the younger generation. Now the young'uns see homosexuals as nothing special. I mean, there's a big 'ol 'mo on every MTV show, and they're always just like all the other characters.

So, I think this battle will be won by exposing the truth to young people, that we're just people. The fact that we are queer is just a small quality that really doesn't matter all that much in the overall scheme of things.

e

[Dont Hurt Me]

Look people, that guy got slammed by the NBA the second he opened his mouth about gays, not even hours had past before he was spewing his iam sorry story. If that aint progress what is?:rolleyes:

[psychofreak]

We should feel sorry for the guy cos he is missing out on one hell of a show with 'Will and Grace'...

[adrianblaine]

Look people, that guy got slammed by the NBA the second he opened his mouth about gays, not even hours had past before he was spewing his iam sorry story. If that aint progress what is?:rolleyes:

The progress is absent in my mind because he still thinks that way. He just had to apologize because he said it out loud. I'm pretty sure he hasn't changed his views. It is every bit as important to change the way you think as what you say out loud, IMO

[BoyBach]

Has anybody seen The Onion's take on the story? It's very funny.

John Amaechi Comes Out As Former NBA Player

STOCKPORT, ENGLAND—British homosexual John Amaechi sent shockwaves throughout the sporting world last week when he announced, much to the surprise of his family and friends—in addition to NBA players and fans—that he lived a double life for five years in which he secretly worked as a professional basketball player.

"It was difficult living with this secret," said Amaechi, who in his new autobiography Man In The Middle reveals that he played in the NBA for the Cleveland Cavaliers, Utah Jazz, Orlando Magic, and perhaps most shockingly, the New York Knicks. "I loved it and hated it at the same time. And I was afraid that if I ever acted on some of my impulses, like say by requesting more playing time, that I would have ultimately embarrassed myself and everyone close to me."

...

In his book, Amaechi states that he even hid his occupation from his parents because he "came from a traditional British household" and his parents would not have approved of their son being an NBA player. Amaechi admits he was constantly worried during the Jazz's nationally televised playoff series with the Sacramento Kings in 2002, because cameras panning over to the bench could have revealed to his family and friends at home that he was in the NBA.

- The Onion (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/john_amaechi_comes_out_as_former)

[solvs]

I mean, there's a big 'ol 'mo on every MTV show, and they're always just like all the other characters.

Actually, they usually seem to be more fun. Wish the gay guys I knew were as fun as the ones on TV. They're pretty boring actually. But then again, so are the girls. Damn you MTV and your pretty and interesting people! ;)

Anyway, today I hear some new commenter say he had a point. About how he felt lied to and couldn't trust them anymore when he discovered someone was gay that he thought was straight. Yeah, wonder why they didn't come out sooner. :rolleyes:

Must be pretty self conscious if he's uncomfortable with some dude seeing him in the shower. I'd be flattered. Hell, at this point I'd love for anybody to want to see me in the shower. :o

[FleurDuMal]

Hurrah. So now my hometown of Stockport is known not only for that bird from Girls Aloud and the most violent bus route in Europe, it also produced the NBA's first openly gay player. Thats quite a list.

[leekohler]

Actually, they usually seem to be more fun. Wish the gay guys I knew were as fun as the ones on TV. They're pretty boring actually. But then again, so are the girls. Damn you MTV and your pretty and interesting people! ;)


Hey- I'm not boring! I'm kinda pretty too. And every once in a while, I'm interesting. :)

[srobert]

I love George Takei's answer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA20dKc3kK8

Sulu rules ^_^

[leekohler]

I love George Takei's answer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA20dKc3kK8

Sulu rules ^_^

Thanks! That rocks! You made my day man.

[zimv20]

that was awesome. "one day, when you least expect it..."

i'm surprised and happy that he upped the stakes there.

[scem0]

yeah, that was my favorite part :).

e

[jelloshotsrule]

hahah. that was awesome!