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MacRumors
Feb 17, 2007, 12:38 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

The Wall Street Journal delves deeper (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117168001288511981.html?mod=home_whats_news_us) (Subscription Required) into the history of the development of the Apple iPhone and touches on a number of details that had already emerged in the weeks following the iPhone announcement.

The article reinforces the impression that Apple been able to negotiate a remarkably favorable deal in a traditionally Cell Phone Carrier-slanted market. The Wall Street Journal confirms details such as a lack of Cingular branding, limited retail availability (Cingular Stores and Apple Stores only), and even Cingular sharing monthly revenue with Apple.

The deal also calls for Cingular to share with Apple a portion of the monthly revenues from subscribers, a person familiar with the matter says.

Many of these terms and conditions were previously revealed (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/29/verizon-rejected-iphone-deal-due-to-apples-terms/) when news came out that Verizon had passed on the iPhone. The original article's claims that Apple wanted "a percentage of the monthly cellphone fees, say over how and where iPhones could be sold and control of the relationship with iPhone customers" appears to be true.

Apple's level of secrecy surrounding this project appears to have reached all time highs as previously noted (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/11/keeping-the-iphone-secret/). Earlier reports claimed that several fake prototypes were circulated to confound rumors of the device. This new article confirms that very few individuals had seen the full iPhone prior to launch. Even Cingular engineers were given dummy versions with very limited access. Even now, "the handful of Cingular people who have access to the sample phones at the company's headquarters were required to sign confidentiality agreements."



DMann
Feb 17, 2007, 12:50 AM
This will be big, no doubt. Verizon's loss, Cingular's gain....

ipedro
Feb 17, 2007, 01:00 AM
I still think Apple would have been better off being their own service provider.

This is perhaps what they'll do once they've entered the market and the Cingular deal expires.

jhedges3
Feb 17, 2007, 01:09 AM
I still think Apple would have been better off being their own service provider.

This is perhaps what they'll do once they've entered the market and the Cingular deal expires.

Is that even feasible?

I thought Cingular has exclusive rights for a few years.

arn
Feb 17, 2007, 01:39 AM
I still think Apple would have been better off being their own service provider.

This is perhaps what they'll do once they've entered the market and the Cingular deal expires.

The article mentions this and Jobs didn't want to do it


Early on, both sides determined it would be a bad idea for Apple to offer its own cellphone service, leasing access to Cingular's network. Even though Virgin Mobile USA and other startup cellphone operators were using that method with some success, Mr. Jobs was cautious. He viewed the cellphone business as an unforgiving one, where carriers are blamed for network problems and overwhelmed by customer complaints.

zombitronic
Feb 17, 2007, 02:33 AM
This will be big, no doubt. Verizon's loss, Cingular's gain....

Agreed. I wonder if Verizon had regrets about passing after the phone was revealed. But then again, Cingular might be the one with regrets if the phone isn't as much of a money maker to them as they're hoping.

Personally, I can't wait to ditch T-Mobile for a service that actually works within my house. They've got my $600...however they split it. And it would feel good to me knowing that Apple would be putting some of my monthly bill back into their pockets. That just tells me that it's more about the phone than the service.

Anyone know if Cingular lets you bring over your number from another carrier?

Barabas
Feb 17, 2007, 02:47 AM
I played around with the iPhone last night, finally able to borrow a friends. The touch screen worked really well and I was suprized how elegant it was to hold. The colors looked great.

Then I woke up. :mad:

bigandy
Feb 17, 2007, 03:03 AM
With monthly revenue sharing, no network branding and the suchlike, I think Cingular just realised how important it could be to have Apple on your side in the marketplace.

I'm glad about the lack of branding, I can't stand network logos on phones. Yuk. :o

GFLPraxis
Feb 17, 2007, 03:36 AM
Agreed. I wonder if Verizon had regrets about passing after the phone was revealed. But then again, Cingular might be the one with regrets if the phone isn't as much of a money maker to them as they're hoping.

Personally, I can't wait to ditch T-Mobile for a service that actually works within my house. They've got my $600...however they split it. And it would feel good to me knowing that Apple would be putting some of my monthly bill back into their pockets. That just tells me that it's more about the phone than the service.

Anyone know if Cingular lets you bring over your number from another carrier?

What makes you think Cingular will be significantly better? T-Mobile and Cingular are both GSM...

Over here, T-Mobile tends to be regarded as the better of the two, but I haven't seen any kind of tests.

darwen
Feb 17, 2007, 05:15 AM
Apple's level of secrecy surrounding this project appears to have reached all time highs as previously noted (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/11/keeping-the-iphone-secret/). Earlier reports claimed that several fake prototypes were circulated to confound rumors of the device. This new article confirms that very few individuals had seen the full iPhone prior to launch. Even Cingular engineers were given dummy versions with very limited access. Even now, "the handful of Cingular people who have access to the sample phones at the company's headquarters were required to sign confidentiality agreements."

This is starting to sound borderline paranoid. I knew this from previous reports but how it is phrased here just sounds ridiculous.

I have never heard of another corporation as locked down as Apple. Can someone please explain why it is necessary for Apple to have confidentiality agreements on a product Steve Jobs spent 1.5 hours talking about??? How much could there be that he hasn't told us? On top of that, what is it that he could still be hiding?

This just all seems over the top. I thought it was cool until the iPhone, Apple is just getting crazy now. Maybe if they spent less time making fake iPhones we wouldn't need to wait till June to buy them. Am I alone on this complaint?

Chupa Chupa
Feb 17, 2007, 06:38 AM
This is starting to sound borderline paranoid. I knew this from previous reports but how it is phrased here just sounds ridiculous.

I have never heard of another corporation as locked down as Apple. Can someone please explain why it is necessary for Apple to have confidentiality agreements on a product Steve Jobs spent 1.5 hours talking about??? How much could there be that he hasn't told us? On top of that, what is it that he could still be hiding?

This just all seems over the top. I thought it was cool until the iPhone, Apple is just getting crazy now. Maybe if they spent less time making fake iPhones we wouldn't need to wait till June to buy them. Am I alone on this complaint?


Because no other company is copied as much as Apple. It's the old saying...just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. One leak could take away Apple's competitive edge. Go worry about something else and Apple will worry about getting its products to market just fine.

Chaszmyr
Feb 17, 2007, 06:41 AM
Because no other company is copied as much as Apple. It's the old saying...just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. One leak could take away Apple's competitive edge. Go worry about something else and Apple will worry about getting its products to market just fine.

This is sad but true. Apple really is the most copied company out there.

However, I doubt that's the only reason for the secrecy, at least before launches. Steve just likes to unveil surprises.

Stella
Feb 17, 2007, 07:15 AM
"The deal also calls for Cingular to share with Apple a portion of the monthly revenues from subscribers, a person familiar with the matter says."

Pure greed.

I find it difficult to see why Apple would want revenues from cell network subscribers who have iPhone. Once Apple have made the sale of the iPhone, thats it. Period. Just like any other phone. No wonder Verizon passed on the deal - too many demands from Apple.

Surely this is like the RIAA wanting a cut of $ from sales of iPod.

As nice as the GUI on the iPhone is, I really don't think its worth the demands. Is the iPhone always going to be exclusive - what happens out-of-exclusivity - are Apple going to want a share of any cell network revenues per iPhone subscriber?

The an Apple own cell network would never work: it would be u.s only and higher priced than any other service ( .Mac for example?). Jobs comments are well founded on the matter.

macridah
Feb 17, 2007, 07:53 AM
jobs is quite the negotiater

crees!
Feb 17, 2007, 08:10 AM
"The deal also calls for Cingular to share with Apple a portion of the monthly revenues from subscribers, a person familiar with the matter says."

Pure greed.

I find it difficult to see why Apple would want revenues from cell network subscribers who have iPhone. Once Apple have made the sale of the iPhone, thats it. Period. Just like any other phone. No wonder Verizon passed on the deal - too many demands from Apple.

Surely this is like the RIAA wanting a cut of $ from sales of iPod.

As nice as the GUI on the iPhone is, I really don't think its worth the demands. Is the iPhone always going to be exclusive - what happens out-of-exclusivity - are Apple going to want a share of any cell network revenues per iPhone subscriber?

The an Apple own cell network would never work: it would be u.s only and higher priced than any other service ( .Mac for example?). Jobs comments are well founded on the matter.

Apple takes a few cents from each purchase of iTMS so what's the difference?


Anyone know if Cingular lets you bring over your number from another carrier?

In the US, yes. There is a law in place to allow this.

This is starting to sound borderline paranoid. I knew this from previous reports but how it is phrased here just sounds ridiculous.

I have never heard of another corporation as locked down as Apple. Can someone please explain why it is necessary for Apple to have confidentiality agreements on a product Steve Jobs spent 1.5 hours talking about??? How much could there be that he hasn't told us? On top of that, what is it that he could still be hiding?

This just all seems over the top. I thought it was cool until the iPhone, Apple is just getting crazy now. Maybe if they spent less time making fake iPhones we wouldn't need to wait till June to buy them. Am I alone on this complaint?

Sadly, I believe you're the only one. And you haven't seen nothing yet regarding the iPhone

JHankwitz
Feb 17, 2007, 08:15 AM
Having a cut from subscriptions would help off-set the costs of support at Apple's stores.

Stella
Feb 17, 2007, 08:19 AM
The different is:
iTMS is a store, so like any store, Apple charges the provider of the goods a small amount of money.

In this case, Apple is the provider and, strangely, Apple want money from Cingular per iPhone subscriber.


Apple takes a few cents from each purchase of iTMS so what's the difference?


The cost of support should be priced into the phone, just like any other Apple / non-Apple product. Remember, its Apple who demands to support the customer, not the cell provider ( this is correct? ).

If I have a problem with my Nokia phone, I don't go to Fido, I'll contact Nokia.


Having a cut from subscriptions would help off-set the costs of support at Apple's stores.



EDIT: Oh God its so early on Saturday and my grammar has gone to hell. Too many mistakes to fix!

Punkwaffle
Feb 17, 2007, 09:26 AM
FYI everyone, the exclusivity of Cingular having the iPhone is multi-year. Exactly how many years you ask- 5 YEAR EXCLUSIVE!:eek:
i spoke with our data team specialist (i work at Cingular) and this is legit.

ltcol266845
Feb 17, 2007, 09:30 AM
T-Mobile has BY FAR the best smartphone plan. (granted, 3G is not quite off the ground yet) $60 a month gets one unlimited internet, unlimited text messages, 1000 minutes a month with unlimited nights and weekends!! haven't seen ANYONE with a plan to match!

This deal with AT&T sounds really strange... Be interesting to see how it progresses

EDIT:: Here is a link. I know it says it is for BlackBerrys, but it is compatible with their other smartphones too.
http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/plans/detail.aspx?tp=tb1&id=56263805-e16b-471e-92d7-3ec0885e2004

Digital Skunk
Feb 17, 2007, 09:52 AM
FYI everyone, the exclusivity of Cingular having the iPhone is multi-year. Exactly how many years you ask- 5 YEAR EXCLUSIVE!:eek:
i spoke with our data team specialist (i work at Cingular) and this is legit.

Sounds like one of those inside source rumors you get on these sites now a days...:D

Seriously though that is true from what everyone else is saying. My new Sprint iPhone will be sweet :cool: :cool: when I get it. It will have been five years improved over the current one. Can't wait for that.

2012 here I come.

clevin
Feb 17, 2007, 09:54 AM
ugly business deals, looking at both side, u can only see one thing which is greedy. lol

Digital Skunk
Feb 17, 2007, 09:57 AM
T-Mobile has BY FAR the best smartphone plan. (granted, 3G is not quite off the ground yet) $60 a month gets one unlimited internet, unlimited text messages, 1000 minutes a month with unlimited nights and weekends!! haven't seen ANYONE with a plan to match!

This deal with AT&T sounds really strange... Be interesting to see how it progresses

EDIT:: Here is a link. I know it says it is for BlackBerrys, but it is compatible with their other smartphones too.
http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/plans/detail.aspx?tp=tb1&id=56263805-e16b-471e-92d7-3ec0885e2004

This is exactly why I cried a bit when Jobs said it was with Cingular only and not at least with the big three (Cingular, Sprint, Verizon) and that you couldn't get the phone unlocked and just use it as a $600 widescreen iPod/PDA. I am not made of money and I am not switching service providers to get an iPhone... thought about it... but don't have the cash:(

So I am just going to pick up Treo 700p with that ugly UI to replace my two year old LG. Grab a cheap 2GB SD card and Pocket Tunes to play my AAC files and I am good to go.

clevin
Feb 17, 2007, 10:00 AM
This is exactly why I cried a bit when Jobs said it was with Cingular only and not at least with the big three (Cingular, Sprint, Verizon) and that you couldn't get the phone unlocked and just use it as a $600 widescreen iPod/PDA. I am not made of money and I am not switching service providers to get an iPhone... thought about it... but don't have the cash:(

So I am just going to pick up Treo 700p with that ugly UI to replace my two year old LG. Grab a cheap 2GB SD card and Pocket Tunes to play my AAC files and I am good to go.
so ur hate for cingular+palm surpassed ur love for iPhone? sorry, its just a calculation apple need to think when they made the deal, and trust me, apple got as much as they can from this deal.

Think about it, If you can't buy iPhone for whatever reason, Im sure then you actually belong to the part of users apple already planed to give up.:D

Lepton
Feb 17, 2007, 10:24 AM
I still think Apple would have been better off being their own service provider.
That's what I was convinced they would do. It is the only way to have complete control over the data plans and services they could provide, and I'm sure they want to allow downloading of songs from iTunes, good syncing, all you can eat high speed data, and so on.

But I guess I can understand. Billing, logistics, it's quite a burden, and doing it worldwide would be a nightmare, so I guess they decided to go with getting the best deals they could with individual companies in various world markets. And Apple does have leverage, because people with brains know Apple will do phones up right and be successful as heck at it. People with brains are few and far between at the phone companies though, but I guess they found a few.

reallynotnick
Feb 17, 2007, 10:30 AM
"The deal also calls for Cingular to share with Apple a portion of the monthly revenues from subscribers, a person familiar with the matter says."

Pure greed.

I find it difficult to see why Apple would want revenues from cell network subscribers who have iPhone. Once Apple have made the sale of the iPhone, thats it. Period. Just like any other phone. No wonder Verizon passed on the deal - too many demands from Apple.

Surely this is like the RIAA wanting a cut of $ from sales of iPod.


The reason it is fesable is because they are going exclusive with Cingular. If they really just wanted to sell phones it would be unlocked. So personally I think it is all fair if Cingular wants the best phone ever to be exclusive to them.

hookedonitunes
Feb 17, 2007, 10:42 AM
Is that even feasible?

I thought Cingular has exclusive rights for a few years.

From what I gather, this is limited to THIS SPECIFIC iPhone. But I may be wrong.

CJD2112
Feb 17, 2007, 10:59 AM
What makes you think Cingular will be significantly better? T-Mobile and Cingular are both GSM...

Over here, T-Mobile tends to be regarded as the better of the two, but I haven't seen any kind of tests.

I used Vericrap for years, and switched recently to Cingular. I couldn't stand Verizon's bs policy on crippling the bluetooth OBEX feature on all their phones in order to force customers to pay for services such as Get It Now, when Cingular and T-Mobile allow customers full access to all their phones' features (Vericrap was sued over crippling the bluetooth on the Motorola v710 and lost big time, but still refused to enable it on future phones as they admitted it's their right and business to do so). More over, Vericrap kept messing up my bill by not adjusting my plans when I phoned to increase my minutes or text messaging allowment, charging me $400-500/month in fees that should have been remedied.

I considered T-Mobile, as they have the cheapest plans, but then realized my friends who use T-Mobile, here in NY, California and Florida, had always dropped my calls when speaking to them from my Vericrap phone. So I switched to Cingular, LOVE IT. Have never dropped a call, my plan is GREAT, roll-over minutes allow me to have a cheaper monthly plan, calls are crystal clear, GSM allows me to use the phone when I'm overseas, customer service was PHENOMENAL. Representatives actually treat you with respect and courtesy (a refreshing change from most of America's big business "we don't care about you" corporations). I can make my own ringtone's and download them to my RAZR and am also able to send and recieve my own pictures for FREE.

As an aside, a lot of people have complained about Cingular's EDGE network. Personally, EDGE is improving with faster HSDPA rates over Vericrap's EV-DO network very quickly. I researched this a great deal with both companies. My only concern is iPhone's lack of 3G, especially given the phone's heavy need for bandwidth as Safari is a fully enabled browser requiring fast download rates for multimedia information. A LOT of people have noted that downfall with the iPhone, that is was EXTREMELY SLOW. I certainly hope this is corrected, as one of the most important features of the phone is it's multimedia web browsing capabilities. :(

CJD2112
Feb 17, 2007, 11:04 AM
From what I gather, this is limited to THIS SPECIFIC iPhone. But I may be wrong.

Cingular has exclusive rights to the iPhone for 5 YEARS. At first, the media were given the impression it would only be two, which was quickly corrected in later reports that Cingular has a 5 year contract with Cingular.

Stella
Feb 17, 2007, 11:20 AM
The reason it is fesable is because they are going exclusive with Cingular. If they really just wanted to sell phones it would be unlocked. So personally I think it is all fair if Cingular wants the best phone ever to be exclusive to them.

"Best phone ever" is subjective! :-)

Thank God other phone manufacturers don't try tricks like this - we'd be paying much higher prices than we do now!

From all those conditions, Cingular took it from Apple, begging!

I'm wondering what Apple will do in other countries where locking of phones is illegal?

MacSamurai
Feb 17, 2007, 11:52 AM
sorry not related to the subject but some one put up thread,new mac pro rumor at http://www.looprumors.com/article.php?new-mac-pro-redesign,762623722

Doctor Q
Feb 17, 2007, 12:23 PM
I wonder if Verizon had regrets about passing after the phone was revealed.It reminds me of the true story (http://www.snopes.com/business/market/mandms.asp) of candy-maker Mars., Inc turning down the chance to have M&Ms be the candy in E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, so Reese's Pieces got the deal instead.

However, I doubt Cingular is going to get rich from this deal. It could turn into a successful part of their business, but it won't cause a huge jump in customers as the sci-fi movie did for Reese's.

arn
Feb 17, 2007, 12:38 PM
sorry not related to the subject but some one put up thread,new mac pro rumor at http://www.looprumors.com/article.php?new-mac-pro-redesign,762623722

This was posted last week on Page 2:

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/14/report-mac-pro-to-be-redesigned/

direct your conversation to that thread (125 replies)

arn

dongmin
Feb 17, 2007, 02:55 PM
"The deal also calls for Cingular to share with Apple a portion of the monthly revenues from subscribers, a person familiar with the matter says."

Pure greed.So you think Apple shouldn't have gotten the best deal they could have? All this talk about 'greed' makes no sense at all. It is a business deal. Each got what they thought was fair. No one was forced to do anything.

And why shouldn't Apple get a cut of the monthly fees if they help grow Cingular's customer base???

The iPhone users will most likely buy the higher-end plans from Cingular, so the typical iPhone customer will be worth multiples of your average phone customer. The iPhone is expensive but if you get a high-volume plan and add a data plan, the service contract could be worth $2000 over two years ($80 a month). And if these customers end up staying with Cingular for 4-5 years, which is not unreasonable given the low "churn rate" (2-3%) in cellular service, signing a new iPhone customer could be worth $4000-5000 for Cingular.

All people focus on is the $499 price tag but don't think about the larger implications of this deal. If Apple-Cingular sells 4 million iPhones a year in the US, that's $4 billion worth of service per year for Cingular. From the iPhone alone. Apple would be absolutely crazy to not try to get a cut of this.

However, I doubt Cingular is going to get rich from this deal. It could turn into a successful part of their business, but it won't cause a huge jump in customers as the sci-fi movie did for Reese's.If my math is anywhere close, Cingular is gonna make a killing.

SiliconAddict
Feb 17, 2007, 03:03 PM
This will be big, no doubt. Verizon's loss, Cingular's gain....

Screw the iPhone. I'm sorry but while this may sell new subscriptions there will be new touchscreen phones out in short order that don't tie you to the most craptacular carrier in North America.

People need to get this through their heads. This is not the same as the iPod. The iPod anyone could pick up and use. This requires you to sign a 2 year contact with Cingular. That is a steep requirement IMHO. How well do you think the iPod would have done if Apple had required that any songs purchased for it had to be done through the iTMS for the next 12 month? A better example was how well did the iPod do when it was Mac only? It only really burst out onto the scene when it supported the PC. Parrallels would be Cingular vs..the entire industry.

This is the first time I've been impressed with Verizon. They actually showed that they own a set and said no to Jobs. It sounds like Jobs is trying to make Cingular turn their head and cough and they are succeeding. The only thing good I'm seeing come out of the iPhone is shaking up the phone market. Which had stagnated for year. That being said there are several iPhone type phones that were announced prior to the iPhone debuting in Jan. The LG phone in particular is interesting. Honestly though I'm not sure why people are so hyped up about the iPhone. Apple has issues with just a new revision of a device. It scares the crap out of me to think what could potentially be wrong with a device Apple has ZERO experience with.
Thanks but I’m not a Guinea pig. I want a PHONE. Not a fashion statement.

And yes I'm being very hostel about this. I'm sorry but I use my phone for work. I don't care about bells and whistles. I don't care about a pretty device. I want a tool. I'm seeing too many device manufacturers turn their devices into fashion statements all in the name of attracting the younger crowd, and I think the iPhone is simply going to accelerate this trend further.

Stella
Feb 17, 2007, 04:01 PM
Cingular shouldn't have taken it up the arse, begging.

You could argue the same case for ANY exclusive phone.

It that case - why shouldn't RIAA take a profit of iPod sales because the iPod helps grow digital music sales, and thus, grow the digital music market?

In fact, there was a discussion on the exact topic, and from what I remember, everyone was pretty much against the idea!

Oh, because its Apple.

So you think Apple shouldn't have gotten the best deal they could have?
And why shouldn't Apple get a cut of the monthly fees if they help grow Cingular's customer base???
[/i].

dongmin
Feb 17, 2007, 04:29 PM
Cingular shouldn't have taken it up the arse, begging.

You could argue the same case for ANY exclusive phone.

It that case - why shouldn't RIAA take a profit of iPod sales because the iPod helps grow digital music sales, and thus, grow the digital music market?

In fact, there was a discussion on the exact topic, and from what I remember, everyone was pretty much against the idea!

Oh, because its Apple.

1. If Cingular is taking it up the arse, it's out of their own choice. Fault Cingular for bad business sense, but don't fault Apple for asking for more... and getting it.

3. Every phone manufacturer is free to get a better deal; it's b/c of their own ineptitude that they haven't. In fact, manufacturers like Samsung are probably thanking Apple because the Cingular deal opens the door for others to get similar deals. For all we know, Apple may be starting a new trend here. But of course, there are very few companies in the consumer products market that has clout and leverage like Apple.

2. You're getting it backwards. iPhone (hardware) adds more subscribers to Cingular (service). If we extend this argument to music and say iPods help grow the digital music service, then it is Apple who should be getting a cut of the music sales. In fact they do, through the iTunes Store.

4. Who was against the idea of Apple taking a cut of the service contracts? I don't think it's ever really come up. The questions have always been Should Apple become a MVNO? or Should Apple sell unlocked phones?

If the iPhone becomes a hit, this is a really really big deal. The repercussions will be far greater than with digital music.

clevin
Feb 17, 2007, 04:55 PM
4. Who was against the idea of Apple taking a cut of the service contracts? I don't think it's ever really come up. The questions have always been Should Apple become a MVNO? or Should Apple sell unlocked phones?


unless apple refunds the money they cut from cingular, otherwise, who do I care if they did? dog fights dog, as an end user, it means nothing for me.

Stella
Feb 17, 2007, 04:56 PM
Nope, I don't think so.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

People are over rating the iPhone.


2. You're getting it backwards. iPhone (hardware) adds more subscribers to Cingular (service). If we extend this argument to music and say iPods help grow the digital music service, then it is Apple who should be getting a cut of the music sales. In fact they do, through the iTunes Store.

If the iPhone becomes a hit, this is a really really big deal. The repercussions will be far greater than with digital music.

gugy
Feb 17, 2007, 05:49 PM
The only thing I know is that I wish Apple did not have introduce the iPhone at MWSF. It's just getting old this whole thing. June is dam so far away and I think Apple is losing sales because the more people wait, tired they get.

I understand Apple had to introduce it at MWSF because the stock market, but I wished otherwise.

I hope Apple could give us more info about iPhone and have AT&T present their service plans cost etc. so consumers can make their minds soon and people on the fence like me get excite about getting the iPhone or just forget about it.

Like I said, this whole thing is getting old and tiring.

clevin
Feb 17, 2007, 06:00 PM
The only thing I know is that I wish Apple did not have introduce the iPhone at MWSF. It's just getting old this whole thing. June is dam so far away and I think Apple is losing sales because the more people wait, tired they get.

I understand Apple had to introduce it at MWSF because the stock market, but I wished otherwise.

I hope Apple could give us more info about iPhone and have AT&T present their service plans cost etc. so consumers can make their minds soon and people on the fence like me get excite about getting the iPhone or just forget about it.

Like I said, this whole thing is getting old and tiring.

I agree with you, when hype is over, ppl will see it more critically, but hey, thats good for customers, doesn't it? carefully check it, rather than buy it with hype.

Also, this shows how hard and difficult to balance all the factors when entering a new market.

Flowbee
Feb 17, 2007, 06:07 PM
People are over rating the iPhone.

...and some people are under-rating the iPhone.

rohitp
Feb 17, 2007, 06:29 PM
Pure greed.


What are you - some kind of socialist?? We live in a capitalistic system. It is in Apple's best interest and in fact, Apple's feduciary duty, to negotiate the very best financial terms for it's employees and shareholders. Both companies negotiated and figured out what was best for each, and the total synergy of the venture.

Greed?!! Good gosh!

clevin
Feb 17, 2007, 06:36 PM
What are you - some kind of socialist?? We live in a capitalistic system. It is in Apple's best interest and in fact, Apple's feduciary duty, to negotiate the very best financial terms for it's employees and shareholders. Both companies negotiated and figured out what was best for each, and the total synergy of the venture.

Greed?!! Good gosh!

lol, being apple's best interest doesn't mean its not greed, same goes for cingular, every greed company has a reason to be so, aren't they?

Stella
Feb 17, 2007, 07:21 PM
...and some people are under-rating the iPhone.

I'm not. :-)

I have a phone that can do almost all that the iPhone can do, plus more on top.

Digital Skunk
Feb 17, 2007, 07:49 PM
so ur hate for cingular+palm surpassed ur love for iPhone? sorry, its just a calculation apple need to think when they made the deal, and trust me, apple got as much as they can from this deal.

Think about it, If you can't buy iPhone for whatever reason, Im sure then you actually belong to the part of users apple already planed to give up.:D

Nope.... I actually love Palm... I wish their UI/OS was improved over the 7 year old interface (that is very effective but MAN IS IT OLD... hasn't changed much from my Palm VIIe:D ) that is starting to show its age. I think the Treo is one of the better smartphones. I know people are going to scream and shout about that fat and wide Blackberries and Blackjacks and Black(place word here)s but the Treo is the best of size and functionality. The only thing I don't like about them is their small screens, but I can get over that.

Don't reall hate Cingular, haven't used their service. I guess I am just whining cuz I can't afford to switch and since I can't switch I am stuck with what I can get. The "what I can get" is a great option though. But it doesn't come close to the iPhone. When I sync my computer with my Treo all of my calendar entries will come in with no category, so I will have to go through and categorize my entire year. All of my contacts will do the same, and as stated before the UI is just OLD. The iPod UI is getting their as well. I hope that Apple places the iPhone UI into an iPod (full sized of course) so it would really blow the market away.

As for Palm... I hope they just upgrade their OS/UI before I get my Treo. (which will be for a while since my G5's logic board got fried :mad: ) WTF man!

akac
Feb 17, 2007, 07:50 PM
The only thing I know is that I wish Apple did not have introduce the iPhone at MWSF.

Sure they did or else it would show up on FCC paperwork and they had to show it to their partners so they could finish it. They knew it would leak otherwise so let them show it when they choose instead of forcing to show it when they don't.

The Motorola RAZR was shown to the public 9 months before it was available for purchase. Most phones are like that. What else is new?

birdsong
Feb 17, 2007, 07:59 PM
"The deal also calls for Cingular to share with Apple a portion of the monthly revenues from subscribers, a person familiar with the matter says."

Pure greed.

I find it difficult to see why Apple would want revenues from cell network subscribers who have iPhone. Once Apple have made the sale of the iPhone, thats it. Period. Just like any other phone. No wonder Verizon passed on the deal - too many demands from Apple.

Surely this is like the RIAA wanting a cut of $ from sales of iPod.


Be careful. Your post exudes ignorance. It has nothing to do with greed. It has to do with good business. People are going to move to Cingular just to use the iPhone in numbers previously unseen. It's nothing like the RIAA, nothing whatsoever. The parallel would be that the RIAA should get a cut because the RIAA is drawing people to the artists. It's quite the opposite, in fact. The RIAA contributes nothing useful to the artists. The RIAA leeches off artists, not the other way around.

Stella
Feb 17, 2007, 08:34 PM
May be good business *for Apple*, but not for the customer: Having to pay full price for a locked phone.

I disagree with 'its nothing like the RIAA'. Once more:
- RIAA wants a cut of iPod profits
- Apple want a cut of Cingular iPhone subscriber revenue

Of course, we'll go around in circles in this discussion until the cows come home M0000ooooOOOOOO and still end up disagreeing with each other :D

Be careful. Your post exudes ignorance. It has nothing to do with greed. It has to do with good business. People are going to move to Cingular just to use the iPhone in numbers previously unseen. It's nothing like the RIAA, nothing whatsoever. The parallel would be that the RIAA should get a cut because the RIAA is drawing people to the artists. It's quite the opposite, in fact. The RIAA contributes nothing useful to the artists. The RIAA leeches off artists, not the other way around.

rohitp -> nothing wrong with socialism ( socialism != communism ). On the list of top countries in the world to live - the majority of them are socialist ( but this is so far off topic ).

Rot'nApple
Feb 17, 2007, 10:30 PM
As an aside, a lot of people have complained about Cingular's EDGE network. Personally, EDGE is improving with faster HSDPA rates over Vericrap's EV-DO network very quickly. I researched this a great deal with both companies. My only concern is iPhone's lack of 3G, especially given the phone's heavy need for bandwidth as Safari is a fully enabled browser requiring fast download rates for multimedia information. A LOT of people have noted that downfall with the iPhone, that is was EXTREMELY SLOW. I certainly hope this is corrected, as one of the most important features of the phone is it's multimedia web browsing capabilities. :(

I have a technical question maybe someone can clarify. The complaint is that it is not 3G compliant and to use EDGE service would provide slow transfer rates or whatever the complaint is about EDGE over 3G. Now my question, what is the 3G technology versus EDGE. Could this technology already be built into the iPhone and activated at a later date? Remember during the keynote when Steve talked about some new great feature you invent for the phone, what are the other "smartphones" going to do? Add another button? The phones are already in the hands of their customers. Whereas the iPhone could probably have a "software update" and bam - you start up your iPhone and there is a new button for new service or whatever. But would 3G over EDGE fall into this scenario? Please advise.

DMann
Feb 17, 2007, 10:43 PM
Agreed. I wonder if Verizon had regrets about passing after the phone was revealed. But then again, Cingular might be the one with regrets if the phone isn't as much of a money maker to them as they're hoping.

Personally, I can't wait to ditch T-Mobile for a service that actually works within my house. They've got my $600...however they split it. And it would feel good to me knowing that Apple would be putting some of my monthly bill back into their pockets. That just tells me that it's more about the phone than the service.

Anyone know if Cingular lets you bring over your number from another carrier?

I'll be switching from T-Mobile to Cingular once the iPhone is released.
The $200 early cancellation fee will easily be absorbed by Cingular's 1.5 yrs of free service, plus use of roll-over minutes which support a lower minute plan overall. The iPhone will very likely be a boon for Cingular, drawing
hundreds, if not thousands of new customers who would not have considered joining otherwise.

twoodcc
Feb 17, 2007, 11:04 PM
This will be big, no doubt. Verizon's loss, Cingular's gain....

i sure hope so. can't wait for this to come out though, for sure. glad i already have Cingular :)

CJD2112
Feb 18, 2007, 12:01 AM
I have a technical question maybe someone can clarify. The complaint is that it is not 3G compliant and to use EDGE service would provide slow transfer rates or whatever the complaint is about EDGE over 3G. Now my question, what is the 3G technology versus EDGE. Could this technology already be built into the iPhone and activated at a later date? Remember during the keynote when Steve talked about some new great feature you invent for the phone, what are the other "smartphones" going to do? Add another button? The phones are already in the hands of their customers. Whereas the iPhone could probably have a "software update" and bam - you start up your iPhone and there is a new button for new service or whatever. But would 3G over EDGE fall into this scenario? Please advise.

EDGE is 3G technology, utilizing HSDPA for high speed downloads. 3G (third generation) really refers to the latest HSDPA.Here's a link:
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/93CA0BF6-6296-4DCF-88EA-9E27E617E96A.html

DMann
Feb 18, 2007, 12:14 AM
I used Vericrap for years, and switched recently to Cingular. I couldn't stand Verizon's bs policy on crippling the bluetooth OBEX feature on all their phones in order to force customers to pay for services such as Get It Now, when Cingular and T-Mobile allow customers full access to all their phones' features (Vericrap was sued over crippling the bluetooth on the Motorola v710 and lost big time, but still refused to enable it on future phones as they admitted it's their right and business to do so). More over, Vericrap kept messing up my bill by not adjusting my plans when I phoned to increase my minutes or text messaging allowment, charging me $400-500/month in fees that should have been remedied.

I considered T-Mobile, as they have the cheapest plans, but then realized my friends who use T-Mobile, here in NY, California and Florida, had always dropped my calls when speaking to them from my Vericrap phone. So I switched to Cingular, LOVE IT. Have never dropped a call, my plan is GREAT, roll-over minutes allow me to have a cheaper monthly plan, calls are crystal clear, GSM allows me to use the phone when I'm overseas, customer service was PHENOMENAL. Representatives actually treat you with respect and courtesy (a refreshing change from most of America's big business "we don't care about you" corporations). I can make my own ringtone's and download them to my RAZR and am also able to send and recieve my own pictures for FREE.

As an aside, a lot of people have complained about Cingular's EDGE network. Personally, EDGE is improving with faster HSDPA rates over Vericrap's EV-DO network very quickly. I researched this a great deal with both companies. My only concern is iPhone's lack of 3G, especially given the phone's heavy need for bandwidth as Safari is a fully enabled browser requiring fast download rates for multimedia information. A LOT of people have noted that downfall with the iPhone, that is was EXTREMELY SLOW. I certainly hope this is corrected, as one of the most important features of the phone is it's multimedia web browsing capabilities. :(

I agree, Cingular seems to be the most customer-centric of all networks
available - the most fair regarding unused minutes, and the most promising
in terms of development. I look forward to signing on in June.....
By then, I'll bet 3G will be introduced as a "surprise" feature to be
enabled in the iPhone as Cingular makes its strides in upgrading to 3G.

Azurael
Feb 18, 2007, 09:07 AM
If they only offer the iPhone in the UK on one network, and it's impossible to buy it sim-free/unlock it, there's no way I'll get one, even if it is on whatever network I happen to prefer at the time it's released here. I object to moronic marketing like this; if I want to buy an iPod, I don't have to buy a special service contract which I'm locked into to listen to my music, so why should I in this case. Sure, you can say most phones are bought locked to a specific provider on an airtime contract, but I can't think of any phones you can't also buy sim-free...

SPUY767
Feb 18, 2007, 10:28 AM
Nope, I don't think so.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

People are over rating the iPhone.

Overrate and derivatives are one word. One a side note, at this point you have nothing good to say and are practically trolling the board. Does that never get boring to you?

Stella
Feb 18, 2007, 10:59 AM
Overrate and derivatives are one word. One a side note, at this point you have nothing good to say and are practically trolling the board. Does that never get boring to you?

Trolling - because I'm not praising Apple at every turn? Because I consider that I have an open mind and see the negatives in Apple products ( AS WELL AS the POSITIVES ) instead of blindly thinking that all Apple products are 100% great?

If I can give reasons to why the iPhone isn't all that great - then I'm not trolling - and I can certainly give a lot of reasons for why the iPhone is over rated ( sic ).

I have little good to say about the iPhone, apart from the candy eyed interface. On other Apple subjects, I have more positive things to say about them.

xfiftyfour
Feb 18, 2007, 11:04 AM
glad i already have Cingular :)

same here! the timing works out amazingly, too, because I'll be eligible to upgrade phones in May.. so if they DO offer any deals on top for signing a new 2 year contract like the rumors say, I'll be set. :D

engadget was reporting the 8GB version at $399 and the 4GB version at $299. I don't know how reliable that is, but hot damn if it's true!

SPUY767
Feb 18, 2007, 01:14 PM
Trolling - because I'm not praising Apple at every turn? Because I consider that I have an open mind and see the negatives in Apple products ( AS WELL AS the POSITIVES ) instead of blindly thinking that all Apple products are 100% great?

If I can give reasons to why the iPhone isn't all that great - then I'm not trolling - and I can certainly give a lot of reasons for why the iPhone is over rated ( sic ).

I have little good to say about the iPhone, apart from the candy eyed interface. On other Apple subjects, I have more positive things to say about them.

Well, the majority of the things I see you post are very negative and some make little sense I didn't know if yu were simply trying to get a rise out of people or what.

ictiosapiens
Feb 18, 2007, 02:37 PM
I just can't believe I'm seeing so many people actually defending and praising measures that restrict their usage of a very expensive product.

Yeah, yeah, free market, blah, blah, blah... You need some kind of regulation, because, as it has been proven here, the majority of people are IGNORANT and need protection from the big greedy corporations. Not to the extreme, but a nice and healthy dose of european regulation...

Just amazing... Some of you are just happy to leave your mobile phone provider with whom you've been with years, and which would probably give you a free phone every year(if they are at all like in the UK) to move to a new network, get a new number, and HAVE TO PAY $600!!! just to loyaly follow your favorite company... WOW, thats something...

Braced and ready for I have unleashed the anger of the "loyal capitalistic costumers" LOL...

DMann
Feb 18, 2007, 03:11 PM
I just can't believe I'm seeing so many people actually defending and praising measures that restrict their usage of a very expensive product.

Yeah, yeah, free market, blah, blah, blah... You need some kind of regulation, because, as it has been proven here, the majority of people are IGNORANT and need protection from the big greedy corporations. Not to the extreme, but a nice and healthy dose of european regulation...

Just amazing... Some of you are just happy to leave your mobile phone provider with whom you've been with years, and which would probably give you a free phone every year(if they are at all like in the UK) to move to a new network, get a new number, and HAVE TO PAY $600!!! just to loyaly follow your favorite company... WOW, thats something...

Braced and ready for I have unleashed the anger of the "loyal capitalistic costumers" LOL...

Considering that it hasn't even been released yet, there's no reason
to be upset about how Apple and Cingular have been 'testing the waters' with their initial intentions. As soon as the iPhone is released, it'll be quite easy to purchase, unlocked, and hacked to your wildest desires. Until it is released though, no one will truly know how restricted things will be initially. FYI, Apple has to at least appear to be playing nice with Cingular (AT&T) to get the ball rolling. Once that happens, restrictions ought to loosen quite a bit.

Sandfleaz
Feb 18, 2007, 10:25 PM
I use Cingular (AT&T) for my family's service. Sprint for my company Blackberry.
Can't say I really have any complaints about Cingular (AT&T).

This is a great move for Cingular if they never make a dime out of the deal (and they will). Just to have an exclusive deal and be associated with Apple and the iPhone is worth a bunch. In addition to a ton of free press, they become a little bit "cooler" by being aligned with Apple.
Cell phone service providers are viewed like utility companies, no matter how competent they are, they send you a bill every month, nothing glamorous.
Love or hate Apple you can’t deny they have an amazing PR machine. It can only help any carrier who is their exclusive partner.

blipper
Feb 18, 2007, 10:43 PM
Cingular a good network? That's laughable. I think third party surveys show Verizon outranking Cingular and my own experience certainly bears that out. I left Cingular (then Cell One) in 1999 for Verizon and have never looked back. Phone and audio quality is just way better. And ultimately, that's what I want in a phone. I already have an IPod.

paja
Feb 18, 2007, 11:43 PM
I left Verizon 4 years ago for Cingular and couldn't be happier. Never have had a problem with Cingular. I'm not saying Versizon was bad it's just that I hated the phones they were offering that year.

Overall I'm happy I switched because I'm getting the iPhone shortly after it ships. It's all the phone I've wanted for two years. It does everything I want. I don't run a business from my phone nor does my life need to be stored on my phone. I'm more than happy with the feature set of the iPhone. I want the mix that the iPhone offers. It will replace my 4Gb Nano with a 8GB Widescreen iPod (minus 500MB for OS X) and it more than replaces my aging Sony Ericsson phone.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MacBook Pro 2.0Ghz / 4GB Nano / DELL 2.6Ghz Desktop

Digital Skunk
Feb 18, 2007, 11:43 PM
i sure hope so. can't wait for this to come out though, for sure. glad i already have Cingular :)

You still have to sign up for a new two-year contract. They can't sell the phone without a two year contract no matter what. So if you wanted the phone you would have to go through the same crap that I do.

Unless you want 2 "two year contracts" with Cingular:D

Digital Skunk
Feb 18, 2007, 11:47 PM
Cingular a good network? That's laughable. I think third party surveys show Verizon outranking Cingular and my own experience certainly bears that out. I left Cingular (then Cell One) in 1999 for Verizon and have never looked back. Phone and audio quality is just way better. And ultimately, that's what I want in a phone. I already have an IPod.

I agree with you to some extent. I am no big fan of Cingular.... don't hate them or like them. If my family and girlfriend were using Cingular and they didn't wany me to make a $250 deposit then I would be a Cingular customer. But they all use Sprint... and I am not paying $250 to leave them then another $250 to join Cingular and the $500 for the phone and the two months of service all in one month just to get an iPhone....

My main point: I don't think you can compare Cingular in 1999 to the Cingular in 2007... that is 8 years. You and I aren't the same person we were 8 years ago.

JeffDM
Feb 19, 2007, 01:12 AM
I want a PHONE. Not a fashion statement.

If you really just want a phone, then iPhone would be a bad idea. You can get phones for $30 fron any number of brands, so I don't see the problem.

My idea of a fashion statement is something that's irritating to use/wear/own and purchased only because it looks good, and Apple doesn't necessarily have that.

And yes I'm being very hostel about this.

You are a youth hotel?

JeffDM
Feb 19, 2007, 01:14 AM
With monthly revenue sharing, no network branding and the suchlike, I think Cingular just realised how important it could be to have Apple on your side in the marketplace.

I'm glad about the lack of branding, I can't stand network logos on phones. Yuk. :o

The brand is still in the software display though. Usually the branding is subtle on most phones, so I don't have a problem with it.

The revenue sharing isn't unprecidented, I understand that RIM gets $5 for every Blackberry subscription. I know that RIM does provide services that do justify that cost, now we just have to see if Apple provides a recurring service or not. The revenue sharing is just another rumor though, so it's best not to get too worked up until there's more hard information available.

JeffDM
Feb 19, 2007, 01:18 AM
The only thing I know is that I wish Apple did not have introduce the iPhone at MWSF. It's just getting old this whole thing. June is dam so far away and I think Apple is losing sales because the more people wait, tired they get.

I understand Apple had to introduce it at MWSF because the stock market, but I wished otherwise.

Actually, it's a good idea because it gives people a chance to let their contracts lapse rather than renew and be stuck with a different plan for another couple years.

JeffDM
Feb 19, 2007, 01:24 AM
The $200 early cancellation fee will easily be absorbed by Cingular's 1.5 yrs of free service, plus use of roll-over minutes which support a lower minute plan overall.

You do realize that the first part is just a rumor, right? I don't remember any confirmations or denials of said free service. If they do offer it, I think it would be just the data plan, not the phone plan.

dontmatter
Feb 19, 2007, 01:49 AM
What are you - some kind of socialist?? We live in a capitalistic system. It is in Apple's best interest and in fact, Apple's feduciary duty, to negotiate the very best financial terms for it's employees and shareholders. Both companies negotiated and figured out what was best for each, and the total synergy of the venture.

Greed?!! Good gosh!

I thought the whole pro-greed it makes the world go round perspective was fashionable in the 90's, but became passé when the tech bubble burst and greedy enron and worldcom etc. screwed the less savy embracers of greed who invested money they didn't have to spare in these companies.

anyway, I get the point, b/c the problem of the 90's was the use of greed to justify making bad decisions and tearing down/not enforcing rules, rather than that motivation by profit changed at all.

Oh, and by the way, socialism isn't all that bad, read up on it. Most people want far more socialistic institutions than their talk regarding socialism indicate (public education, parks, healthcare, transportation, a sliding tax scale, etc.)

About the RIAA analogy, I think it is right in that it is one buisness asking for a cut of another buisness they really don't have a right to, but the difference here is this: The RIAA acts as a near monopoly in music, while apple is nothing of the sort in the mobile phone field. Therefore the RIAA would be forcing the fees on apple because as a monopoly, it can threaten to cut off apple's supply of content, and apple has nowhere to go. Apple, though, can only deny a carrier a small part of the market, allowing the carrier a real choice to accept or decline the offer, making for fair negotiations.

jhedges3
Feb 19, 2007, 02:39 AM
I fail to understand why so many of you continue to summarize your opinions of-and personal experiences with-one or a few wireless carriers. It’s like trying to get a sense for whether American-made cars are as reliable as Japanese-made ones by having everyone who cared to say something describe their experiences with each of them. In total, we might end up with a few hundred remarks, all from different circumstances, some in half English, some based on a months worth of observations, some on a few years, all rather fragmented and difficult to compare. How bout summaries based on 10,000 responses to standardized questions with sensible analyses and people who address these issues for a living?

To those that continue to pass on your views about Verizon and Cingular, why not defer to studies and statistics, which, for example, have an N greater than one or two. Your experiences for how well your Sprint phone worked while you were living in Orlando means nothing to most of us. And every time you mention it you’re opening the door to more people who may or may not have had experiences that are similar to yours.

The influence of provider on experience is probabilistic. Some companies will suck for some people at some points in time with some phones in some locations, and some won’t. Cingular has ~61 M customers, Verizon has ~59 M, and T-Mobile has ~25 M. We should, at least try, to deal with something this complicated like people who have, at least once in our lives, heard of something like a t-test and an analysis of variance.

It takes a few seconds for most of us to find good articles on this subject. Here are some quotes from those that compare wireless carriers:

consumerreports.org: (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/cellphone-complaints-705/index.htm)

Complaint data obtained by Consumers Union, publisher of Consumer Reports and ConsumerReports.org, from the Federal Communications Commission show that Cingular and AT&T, which combined last year to form the nation's largest wireless phone company, have the worst combined complaint record for 2004. AT&T alone has had the worst complaint record two years running.

The combined Cingular/ AT&T had a complaint rate nearly four times the rate for Verizon Wireless, the nation's second-largest carrier.

consumerreports.org (from wsj) (http://www.wsj.consumerreports.org/wsjreport59.html):

Verizon topped the Ratings in each city, as it did in the previous two surveys. In 10 cities, it wasn’t ahead of the pack in a statistically meaningful way, however. And Verizon wasn’t problem-free. It simply had fewer problems than other carriers.

consumersunion.org:
(http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/core_telecom_and_utilities/002089.html)
Cingular and AT&T Wireless, which merged late last year to form the nation’s largest cell phone company, have the worst combined complaint record for 2004, according to records obtained by Consumers Union from the Federal Communications Commission through the Freedom of Information Act. AT&T Wireless also had the worse complaint record for two years running, the data showed.

consumersearch.com: (http://www.consumersearch.com/www/electronics/cell-phone-plans/index.html)

Best wireless service, domestic U.S.
Considering all factors, reviews say Verizon has the best call quality. Verizon customers experience fewer dropped calls and circuit overloads than with other carriers. While plan prices may not be the cheapest, rates are competitive. Verizon works on the CDMA network, which is not compatible with European or Asian GSM networks; T-Mobile -- which ties for first or finishes a close second to Verizon in most reviews and which received J.D. Power's top rating for customer service..

Cingular has been in the hot seat for its latest ad campaign claiming that "the leading independent research company" has proven Cingular has the fewest dropped calls. Cingular doesn't identify this mysterious "research company" in its ads or on its website. While you might assume Consumer Reports is the publication being referenced, that's not the case. It turns out that the referenced study was conducted by a company called Telephia Corp., but according to an investigative article by Bruce Mohl published in the Boston Globe, neither Cingular nor Telephia will release the results of this study to anyone.

Cingular isn't the only wireless company that makes big advertising claims, but Cingular's claims are perhaps least supported by any of the available independent testing data. In the large survey conducted by J.D. Power, Cingular is rated lowest in overall call quality in four of six regions. In the remaining two regions, subscribers rate overall call quality in the bottom two. In the survey at PC Magazine, readers rate Cingular call quality higher than that of Sprint/Nextel and Qwest, but significantly lower than Verizon, Alltel and U.S. Cellular...

In the most recent J.D. Power study, T-Mobile's wireless service (plans start at *est. $30) performs particularly well, ranking highest in all six regions (including four ties), for overall customer satisfaction. Verizon Wireless (plans start at *est. $40) ties with T-Mobile in the Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, North Central and Southeast regions. Verizon's main strengths are call quality, particularly in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast, where Verizon call quality is significantly better than that of T-Mobile. Most companies share the award for the best customer service nationwide.

Results from other surveys generally agree with the results of the J.D. Power study, with Verizon and T-Mobile trading places for first and second, depending on region. At Consumer Reports, editors say that users in metropolitan areas should go with the cell-phone plan that gets the highest rating. Since Verizon and T-Mobile both rank highly in most regions, your best bet is to ask around -- find out how happy friends and neighbors are with their cell-phone service. Additionally, websites like CellReception.com can give you a good idea of what you can expect in your specific area. This website is a great source for identifying service 'dead spots.'

While Verizon and T-Mobile are usually ranked highest overall, smaller wireless provider Alltel (plans starting at *est. $40) ranks highly in a couple of areas, including Phoenix and parts of the Southwest, and parts of the Southeast, such as Miami. Sprint/Nextel and Cingular almost always rank lower. In most of the country, reviews say T-Mobile deserves first consideration. T-Mobile's pricing is usually less expensive than Verizon; for the same $40, T-Mobile gives you 600 minutes plus unlimited nighttime and weekend calling. Verizon's $40 plan gives you 450 anytime minutes plus unlimited nighttime and weekend calls. If you live in the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic, however, Verizon is the better choice, since its scores for call quality in those regions is better than that of T-Mobile.

J.D. Power and Associates (from cnnmoney.com): (http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/31/technology/cellular_survey/)

For their Wireless Network Quality Assessment Study, the market research and customer satisfaction survey company polled 16,800 wireless telephone customers. Wireless companies were ranked on a scale, with 100 representing an average score. Scores above 100 represented better network quality.

Verizon (VZ: Research, Estimates) scored best at 104. Nextel (NXTL: Research, Estimates) and Cingular followed, with scores of 103 and 101, respectively.

AT&T Wireless (AWE: Research, Estimates) was average while Sprint PCS (PCS: Research, Estimates), with 95, and T-Mobile, with 94, were below average. Alltel (AT: Research, Estimates) was ranked last with a score of 93.

boston.com: (http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2006/04/23/the_fewest_dropped_calls/?page=1)

Cingular Wireless is running ads everywhere saying it has the fewest dropped calls of any cellular phone carrier, but what's missing from the massive campaign is evidence to back up the claim.

A Cingular spokeswoman said the research company was Telephia Corp. of San Francisco, and referred questions about the study to a spokesman there. The Telephia spokesman declined to provide any information, saying Cingular shouldn't have even mentioned the company's name to a reporter.

Without the study, it's hard to know how significant the Cingular claim is. Did the company have the fewest dropped calls by a wide margin or a tiny margin? How did it fare on other yardsticks of network reliability, including calls that don't go through, static, echoes, voice distortion, and notification failures for voice and e-mails?

Both Verizon and Sprint have their own credibility issues. Sprint doesn't offer any backup in its ads for its claim that it has the most powerful network in Boston. A spokesman said the claim refers to the wide variety of services Sprint can offer.

Verizon bases its reliability claims on its own testing, supposedly available at its website. But a detailed breakdown of the tests isn't provided, there's no information on Boston, and what little is available on four other markets dates to 2003.




Personally, I can't wait to ditch T-Mobile for a service that actually works within my house. They've got my $600...however they split it.

I used Vericrap for years, and switched recently to Cingular. I couldn't stand Verizon's bs policy on crippling the bluetooth OBEX feature on all their phones in order to force customers to pay for services such as Get It Now, when Cingular and T-Mobile allow customers full access to all their phones' features (Vericrap was sued over crippling the bluetooth on the Motorola v710 and lost big time, but still refused to enable it on future phones as they admitted it's their right and business to do so). More over, Vericrap kept messing up my bill by not adjusting my plans when I phoned to increase my minutes or text messaging allowment, charging me $400-500/month in fees that should have been remedied.

I considered T-Mobile, as they have the cheapest plans, but then realized my friends who use T-Mobile, here in NY, California and Florida, had always dropped my calls when speaking to them from my Vericrap phone. So I switched to Cingular, LOVE IT. Have never dropped a call, my plan is GREAT, roll-over minutes allow me to have a cheaper monthly plan, calls are crystal clear, GSM allows me to use the phone when I'm overseas, customer service was PHENOMENAL. Representatives actually treat you with respect and courtesy (a refreshing change from most of America's big business "we don't care about you" corporations). I can make my own ringtone's and download them to my RAZR and am also able to send and recieve my own pictures for FREE.

I use Cingular (AT&T) for my family's service. Sprint for my company Blackberry.
Can't say I really have any complaints about Cingular (AT&T).

Cingular a good network? That's laughable. I think third party surveys show Verizon outranking Cingular and my own experience certainly bears that out. I left Cingular (then Cell One) in 1999 for Verizon and have never looked back. Phone and audio quality is just way better. And ultimately, that's what I want in a phone.

I left Verizon 4 years ago for Cingular and couldn't be happier. Never have had a problem with Cingular. I'm not saying Versizon was bad it's just that I hated the phones they were offering that year.

Overall I'm happy I switched because I'm getting the iPhone shortly after it ships. It's all the phone I've wanted for two years. It does everything I want. I don't run a business from my phone nor does my life need to be stored on my phone. I'm more than happy with the feature set of the iPhone. I want the mix that the iPhone offers. It will replace my 4Gb Nano with a 8GB Widescreen iPod (minus 500MB for OS X) and it more than replaces my aging Sony Ericsson phone.

ripoff? i pay 70$ for 600 min and an additional 10$ for 200 texts [which i frequently exceed] (cingular)

thats CHEAP for cingular.

when i had tmobile i payed 50$ for 600 min and 10$ for 800 texts. problem is, tmobile has the WORST network coverage and NO 3/2.5G at all... max signal i'd get is 4 bars and frequently when driving around i get no coverage or "emergency only"

My Verizon phone broke 16 months into the contract in November, and I was debating whether or not to stay with Verizon, get the Sidekick I always wanted, or wait for the iPhone. I ended up getting the SK, but I really don't regret it. I have a phone that works for me. Plus, AT&T gets bad reception here.

Yet another reason why I do not like Verizon and cannot wait until my contract is up :)

I really dislike my Verizon service, so I have been looking for an excuse to change. The iPhone is perfect. I want it...Cingular here I come...

First off, I can't stand Verizon at all, they lock up features on a phone that other carriers let us use (bluetooth contact sync for example), then force us to pay if we want to use that. I CANT STAND VERIZON. As soon as the iphone is released I will be trashing verizon moving on to cingular.

Yeah verizon is a joke. they are all about making it impossible to switch (they charge ridiculous $ to buy out their contracts), they put that horrible software, remove features, use old technology so their phones are only compatible with their service. You can usually erase the verizon software from the phones though ---- google around and you'll find info on how.

I too have been patiently waiting to move both me & my wife's accounts from VZW to something else (aka: whomever was going to offer the iPhone). While my VZW contract is up in June, hers has another year.
For us, it will be worth the early termination fee to not deal with VZW's "customer service" any more. Granted, all US carriers suffer the same annoying issues VZW does, but at least I'll have that experience with an Apple-branded phone in my pocket.

I know 4 others who are switching from VZW (3) or T-Mobile (1) to Cingular in June.

I, for one, wouldn't switch to Stinkular if you paid me. They wouldn't know customer service if it walked up and bit them in the rear.

And for all their touting their coverage, it's funny that more often than not I only have 1 or 2 bars on my phone when I want to make a call.

I just finished a contract with Sprint for my personal phone and despite T-Mobile's lagging behind in coverage, we will be going with them over Stinkular.

No, they haven't gotten better. They've gotten the iPhone. That's all that matters to most people here.

Cepe Indicum
Feb 19, 2007, 02:53 AM
The influence of provider on experience is probabilistic. Some companies will suck for some people at some points in time with some phones in some locations, and some won’t. Cingular has ~61 M customers, Verizon has ~59 M, and T-Mobile has ~25 M. We should, at least try, to deal with something this complicated like people who have, at least once in our lives, heard of something like a t-test and an analysis of variance.

I have heard of t-tests and ANOVA, as well as correlation and regression, and your post is interesting, but isn't this a mac community discussion forum (see top of any macrumors page)?

The idea is you read all the analysis elsewhere, then post your thoughts / opinions... Or am I wrong there? I actually find it more interesting to hear other peoples' opinions on the subject.

macintologist
Feb 19, 2007, 06:54 AM
What I don't understand is how is Apple going to benefit from locking the iPhone into Cingular as opposed to selling the iPhone unlocked so ANYONE can use it with ANY carrier (that is GSM, so in the USA that would be Cingular and TMobile only because they are the only GSM carriers in America, unfortunately)

CJD2112
Feb 19, 2007, 07:26 AM
I fail to understand why so many of you continue to summarize your opinions of-and personal experiences with-one or a few wireless carriers. It’s like trying to get a sense for whether American-made cars are as reliable as Japanese-made ones by having everyone who cared to say something describe their experiences with each of them. In total, we might end up with a few hundred remarks, all from different circumstances, some in half English, some based on a months worth of observations, some on a few years, all rather fragmented and difficult to compare. How bout summaries based on 10,000 responses to standardized questions with sensible analyses and people who address these issues for a living?

To those that continue to pass on your views about Verizon and Cingular, why not defer to studies and statistics, which, for example, have an N greater than one or two. Your experiences for how well your Sprint phone worked while you were living in Orlando means nothing to most of us. And every time you mention it you’re opening the door to more people who may or may not have had experiences that are similar to yours.

[/INDENT]


Yawwwwnnnn :rolleyes: . Thanks for essentially slamming my comment and personal experience. While your point may have some weight, my "opinion" is backed up by huge lawsuits against Verizon (google "California v710 bluetooth Verizon"). While these so-called independent companies that have studied North American mobile service providers are interesting, I believe you give them too much weight as you claim we give our own opinions too much weight. Frankly, all these companies and customers, well, how does that saying go, "opinions are list a$$holes, everybody has 'em". People are simply describing their own personal experiences to 1) vent and 2) inform others as to warn them or share in similar experiences. In the end, what matters most is the fact that paying far too much for mobile service is still screwing everyone in North America. As has been discussed on other threads on Macrumors, it seems Europeans are bewildered by how much U.S. (and Canadian) companies are putting the screws to its customers by charging for such things as incoming text messages and incoming phone calls (something I always believed to be quite ludicrous). Any one recall the lawsuit against Verizon ten years ago or so in which it was claimed (and proven) that Verizon used software to "trick" users into thinking they had a voicemail when they did not, thereby charging them minutes every time one of their millions of subscribers called to check? Bottom line, American big business will do anything to make money of the unsuspecting and naive American consumer, including having "exclusive rights" to a particular product cough*iPhone*cough*cough charging huge sums of money, putting more subscribers into their service, making big bucks off activation fees (everyone has forgotten that companies still charge a $30 activation fee for new service), and enforcing the "we are the biggest service provider" image by adding more people into their network. Companies don't care about the individual; they care about the bottom line. In the end, we're all getting screwed, so we can moan, groan, compare "our" service providers johnson sizes, ad nauseam, it doesn't mean any thing. Until companies actually care about its customer base, this is all meaningless drivel.

koobcamuk
Feb 19, 2007, 08:05 AM
If they only offer the iPhone in the UK on one network, and it's impossible to buy it sim-free/unlock it, there's no way I'll get one, even if it is on whatever network I happen to prefer at the time it's released here. I object to moronic marketing like this; if I want to buy an iPod, I don't have to buy a special service contract which I'm locked into to listen to my music, so why should I in this case. Sure, you can say most phones are bought locked to a specific provider on an airtime contract, but I can't think of any phones you can't also buy sim-free...

I can't see them locking to one network in the UK. It would be suicide here. Also, no go for a 2 year contract. Phones change so much... in one and a half years time (3 if you're in the UK as it won't be here for nearly a year) the phones will have moved on a hell of a lot.

Maybe Apple want a turn around every 2 years on their models....

I dunno. It is upgrade time for me. I might get a 12 month contract now and see what happens later. There are some awesome phones out in the UK now...

Digital Skunk
Feb 19, 2007, 08:22 AM
What I don't understand is how is Apple going to benefit from locking the iPhone into Cingular as opposed to selling the iPhone unlocked so ANYONE can use it with ANY carrier (that is GSM, so in the USA that would be Cingular and TMobile only because they are the only GSM carriers in America, unfortunately)

Yeah but at least we would have two options instead of just one.

jhedges3
Feb 19, 2007, 08:33 AM
I have heard of t-tests and ANOVA, as well as correlation and regression, and your post is interesting, but isn't this a mac community discussion forum (see top of any macrumors page)?

MR is a Mac community discussion forum. And it’s obviously not up to me to decide on and to define what is and what is not included in that.

But if my previous post has no place on MR then for consistencies sake the endless stream of discussion as to whether, for example, Cingular is better than Verizon also has no place. In other words, if users have discussed this at length in the past I don’t see why I shouldn’t have the opportunity to respond.

For what it’s worth to you, I feel that the boundaries of what we’re allowed to discuss should be relatively wide. It’s great that people are directed (i.e., this post belongs in this other thread). But I see no reason that users especially should have narrow views about what’s Mac community and what isn’t. Anyway, all others and myself should be perfectly within Mac community in discussing wireless providers since, as you know, Apple is now a maker of a phone and has a relationship with Cingular.

The idea is you read all the analysis elsewhere, then post your thoughts / opinions... Or am I wrong there? I actually find it more interesting to hear other peoples' opinions on the subject.

I agree in part that you read analysis elsewhere then post thoughts/opinions. Although it seems clear that in some cases people have not read analysis elsewhere, which is to say that they have opinions, for example, that run counter to, or are antithetical to analysis, elsewhere, but they carry on as if that analysis never existed, they make no mention of it.

It may be, in cases, interesting to hear people’s opinions on issues such as whether Cingular is better than Verizon. I actually think it is not that interesting because it’s been said many times before, it has a sort of built in redundancy, and applies really only to people with similar conditions and similar priorities.

But regardless of whether these thoughts/opinions are interesting is whether they actually tell us something, whether they’re of any use, or whether they’re, for example, of more use than actual studies on these issues. Would you say, for example, reading every post on MR about whether Cingular is better than Verizon would give you as much certainty and clarity on that issue as if you’d read a handful of articles about it, maybe a few pages of Wikipedia?

phillipjfry
Feb 19, 2007, 08:45 AM
Cingular shouldn't have taken it up the arse, begging.

You could argue the same case for ANY exclusive phone.

It that case - why shouldn't RIAA take a profit of iPod sales because the iPod helps grow digital music sales, and thus, grow the digital music market?

In fact, there was a discussion on the exact topic, and from what I remember, everyone was pretty much against the idea!

Oh, because its Apple.

You're thinking too high up in the food chain. RIAA is just a single entity in the music industry. They control the media. Cingular is just one amongst many many other carriers. RIAA makes money through the industry because they control all others below them (your country may vary).

OT: I think Apple wanted Cingular all along and to show impartiallity, they went to Verizon with high(er?) demands for carrying the iPhone in which no company would accept. Then they left and went to Cingular and cut a much easier deal to swallow. Or I just might be paranoid :)

peharri
Feb 19, 2007, 10:15 AM
So, according to the component breakdowns, the phone costs $300 to build.

It'll sell for $600.

It'll require a two year contract on top of the $600, a significant proportion of which is going to Apple (hence, the subscription will be more expensive than it needs to be.)

So it's ridiculously over-priced. It perpetuates the two-years-in-handcuffs deal. It's EDGE, not UMTS, and doesn't run anything but a limited amount of Apple-approved software (apparently because the operating system is insecure - that's what Jobs seems to be implying anyway, and the lack of a managed programming environment would seem to confirm that.) And I can buy extremely capable competing phones that do what I want them to (possibly not as elegantly, that remains to be seen, but with more functionality) for less, unlocked, no contractual restrictions, no need to sign up to a specific provider.

Unfortunately, despite it being everything I utterly despise about modern business practices, I think Apple may even succeed with this. That's how bad things are right now.

But I'm not going to be buying one. I just hope whatever's actually good about the Apple phone will make its way into other phones, without what's bad, closed, locked, etc, coming in too. That's the biggest fear about what Apple is doing, that it will legitimize this aspect of the industry, that slowly the adoption of open GSM/UMTS in the Americas had, until now, been undermining.

peharri
Feb 19, 2007, 10:31 AM
EDGE is 3G technology, utilizing HSDPA for high speed downloads. 3G (third generation) really refers to the latest HSDPA.Here's a link:
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/93CA0BF6-6296-4DCF-88EA-9E27E617E96A.html

EDGE, as an air interface, is accepted as part of the ITU-2000 3G standards, but no, it has nothing to do with HSDPA. HSDPA is an enhancement to the W-CDMA air interface. W-CDMA is also a 3G air interface, and is used by UMTS (next generation GSM) and FOMA.

EDGE is ok, but it's essentially a higher-bandwidth version of GPRS. It has lousy latency and isn't much higher in bandwidth than ISDN. Indeed, people who use it could be forgiven for thinking it's slower than dial-up.

Sandfleaz
Feb 19, 2007, 10:38 AM
I guess it would be to simple just to say,
"The iPhone is way cool, I will pay $500 and join AT&T"

Cepe Indicum
Feb 19, 2007, 12:10 PM
But regardless of whether these thoughts/opinions are interesting is whether they actually tell us something, whether they’re of any use, or whether they’re, for example, of more use than actual studies on these issues. Would you say, for example, reading every post on MR about whether Cingular is better than Verizon would give you as much certainty and clarity on that issue as if you’d read a handful of articles about it, maybe a few pages of Wikipedia?

Apologies, I think you've missing the point of my previous post. I simply don't understand why you decided to write such a long and detailed post on the basis that you don't appear to like reading the biased opinions of others...

If everyone posted the way you appear to want people to post, then there would be one post per subject - and it would be like your first, incredibly long post!

My point is this... what's the point of this forum if people can't give their opinions. And, and answer your question above, I know that if I want facts and figures on which is better - Cingular or Verizon - I should go elsewhere. I'm here to read what people think on the subject, and about their personal experiences of Cingular and Verizon.

gugy
Feb 19, 2007, 12:35 PM
I fail to understand why so many of you continue to summarize your opinions of-and personal experiences with-one or a few wireless carriers. It’s like trying to get a sense for whether American-made cars are as reliable as Japanese-made ones by having everyone who cared to say something describe their experiences with each of them. In total, we might end up with a few hundred remarks, all from different circumstances, some in half English, some based on a months worth of observations, some on a few years, all rather fragmented and difficult to compare. How bout summaries based on 10,000 responses to standardized questions with sensible analyses and people who address these issues for a living?
[/INDENT]


THANK YOU!
You just proved what I already suspect. Cingular is "most" of the time sucks.
I was their customer few years back. I switch to Verizon. My service now is OK but I know Cingular is worse.
Once again, this is my case.
I love the iPhone but using Cingular just to brag to people I have one iPhone is ridiculous. Sorry Apple, I'll pass the this time. Hopefully someday other carriers will be able to have the iPhone.

gugy
Feb 19, 2007, 12:40 PM
Yawwwwnnnn :rolleyes: . Thanks for essentially slamming my comment and personal experience. While your point may have some weight, my "opinion" is backed up by huge lawsuits against Verizon (google "California v710 bluetooth Verizon"). While these so-called independent companies that have studied North American mobile service providers are interesting, I believe you give them too much weight as you claim we give our own opinions too much weight. Frankly, all these companies and customers, well, how does that saying go, "opinions are list a$$holes, everybody has 'em". People are simply describing their own personal experiences to 1) vent and 2) inform others as to warn them or share in similar experiences. In the end, what matters most is the fact that paying far too much for mobile service is still screwing everyone in North America. As has been discussed on other threads on Macrumors, it seems Europeans are bewildered by how much U.S. (and Canadian) companies are putting the screws to its customers by charging for such things as incoming text messages and incoming phone calls (something I always believed to be quite ludicrous). Any one recall the lawsuit against Verizon ten years ago or so in which it was claimed (and proven) that Verizon used software to "trick" users into thinking they had a voicemail when they did not, thereby charging them minutes every time one of their millions of subscribers called to check? Bottom line, American big business will do anything to make money of the unsuspecting and naive American consumer, including having "exclusive rights" to a particular product cough*iPhone*cough*cough charging huge sums of money, putting more subscribers into their service, making big bucks off activation fees (everyone has forgotten that companies still charge a $30 activation fee for new service), and enforcing the "we are the biggest service provider" image by adding more people into their network. Companies don't care about the individual; they care about the bottom line. In the end, we're all getting screwed, so we can moan, groan, compare "our" service providers johnson sizes, ad nauseam, it doesn't mean any thing. Until companies actually care about its customer base, this is all meaningless drivel.


Ditto,
All carriers in the USA suck.
I wish it could change and we get the European and Asian carriers quality and infra structure.
Hey even in south america the quality and services of their carriers are better than USA.
Very sad our atate of union! :eek: :rolleyes:

CJD2112
Feb 19, 2007, 02:16 PM
EDGE, as an air interface, is accepted as part of the ITU-2000 3G standards, but no, it has nothing to do with HSDPA. HSDPA is an enhancement to the W-CDMA air interface. W-CDMA is also a 3G air interface, and is used by UMTS (next generation GSM) and FOMA.

EDGE is ok, but it's essentially a higher-bandwidth version of GPRS. It has lousy latency and isn't much higher in bandwidth than ISDN. Indeed, people who use it could be forgiven for thinking it's slower than dial-up.

Cingular and T-Mobile utilize GSM, not Verizon's CDMA. HSDPA is a 3G mobile telephony protocol from the HSPA family. HSDPA utilizes a new W-CDMA channel as HS-DSCH (high speed download shared channel), much different than UTMS CDMA. UTMS is already used, however HSDPA is quickly being snapped up by service providers world wide. In fact, many countries such as Australia and South Korea have cut their CDMA-EVDO networks in favor of adopting HSDPA.

CJD2112
Feb 19, 2007, 02:20 PM
Ditto,
All carriers in the USA suck.
I wish it could change and we get the European and Asian carriers quality and infra structure.
Hey even in south america the quality and services of their carriers are better than USA.
Very sad our atate of union! :eek: :rolleyes:

What's interesting is the US's control of new technology. While most countries are eager in getting new and better systems out to the public, US companies have a sort of "agreement" in holding technology back in order to slowly release it as a commercialized "latest and greatest" in order to charge more. As an example, high definition broadcasting has been around since the late 80's in Japan. However, companies didn't adopt it as a "new" standard until almost 20 years later, allowing them to market it and make big bucks. Same with the mobile phone industry. Features and services that are included free of charge in most other countries are labelled as "extra" and/or luxury items in order to bump up mobile bills. In the end, everyone buys into it and the companies make their bloated wallets that much bigger. If anything, America has proven that an unchecked, free market does NOT benefit the consumer as much as it should. Pretty sad state of affairs, and yet we claim we're the "leader of the free world". HA. :rolleyes:

theBB
Feb 19, 2007, 02:47 PM
What's interesting is the US's control of new technology. While most countries are eager in getting new and better systems out to the public, US companies have a sort of "agreement" in holding technology back in order to slowly release it as a commercialized "latest and greatest" in order to charge more. As an example, high definition broadcasting has been around since the late 80's in Japan. However, companies didn't adopt it as a "new" standard until almost 20 years later, allowing them to market it and make big bucks. Same with the mobile phone industry. Features and services that are included free of charge in most other countries are labelled as "extra" and/or luxury items in order to bump up mobile bills. In the end, everyone buys into it and the companies make their bloated wallets that much bigger. If anything, America has proven that an unchecked, free market does NOT benefit the consumer as much as it should. Pretty sad state of affairs, and yet we claim we're the "leader of the free world". HA. :rolleyes:
In Europe, the governments specify the exact details of the standards to be used by the cell phone companies when selling wireless spectrum, whereas in the US the government sets the basic rules only. That's what allowed CDMA to prove its worth on a large scale. Otherwise, who knows how long it would take for it to go from a promising research project into a commercially viable product. All of the 3G standards use derivatives of this technology. You are speaking about the merits of WCDMA or HSDPA on these forums thanks to the free market rules in the US. It even benefits the Europeans.

CJD2112
Feb 19, 2007, 03:19 PM
In Europe, the governments specify the exact details of the standards to be used by the cell phone companies when selling wireless spectrum, whereas in the US the government sets the basic rules only. That's what allowed CDMA to prove its worth on a large scale. Otherwise, who knows how long it would take for it to go from a promising research project into a commercially viable product. All of the 3G standards use derivatives of this technology. You are speaking about the merits of WCDMA or HSDPA on these forums thanks to the free market rules in the US. It even benefits the Europeans.

What about technologies that AREN'T developed in the US (which is just about everything)? As per my example of high definition broadcasting that was developed and utilized in Japan in the 80's. High definition broadcasting has been available for a long time, but American companies have just started making this available in a broad scale over the past few years. For example, Time Warner Cable has been pushing high definition very steadily over the past two years, offering it in most if not all areas of the country. It does not require Time Warner to lay new cable or new equipment, but simply broadcasting the high definition signals to televisions that have NTSC/QAM and/or high definition tuners and cable boxes. In NY, digital cable signals are broadcast directly through already existing cable lines allowing any television with basic cable to tap directly into a cable line and receive high definition channels. Yet Time Warner charges customers extra for high definition and cable boxes/cards without any sound financial reason (except for voodoo economics). In Japan and other countries, high definition broadcasting is standard service and not labeled as an “extra".

Similar with mobile companies in EU and Asia, incoming calls and text messages are not charged to the receiver, just to the SENDER. US companies charge the sender and recipient for everything. How would people feel if the post office charged for every piece of mail that someone receives? It's ludicrous. Let's look at VOIP, internet phone was free for people with online high speed home access and the right equipment. Now Time Warner came along and decided to charge a monthly fee for the service that was already available (and no, increased bandwidth use and service does not warranty a monthly charge as it is not any where near the bandwidth already utilized by heavy internet and television traffic on cable lines, it's illogical). Other countries have been using 3G and HSDPA for a while now; most mobile companies include it in their service. Yet US companies acquire the technology, slowly "develop" it, market it to the public as a great, new technology and sell it for ridiculous amounts of money.

The same could be said of pharmaceutical companies. I have friends who work in research for companies such as Merck and Novartis who state that companies will NEVER cure a disease as treating illnesses brings in more money long-term. As a diabetic since 12, I can assure you that companies are making money HAND OVER FIST in glucose test strips, insulin, syringes, med's - you name it, and many individuals say that a cure is just around the corner but funding from these companies is strictly limited to improving the lifestyle not the cure. It's b.s., money talks and everything else walks. The idea that the free market works for the better of humanity is a load of crap...

peharri
Feb 20, 2007, 09:20 AM
Cingular and T-Mobile utilize GSM, not Verizon's CDMA. HSDPA is a 3G mobile telephony protocol from the HSPA family. HSDPA utilizes a new W-CDMA channel as HS-DSCH (high speed download shared channel), much different than UTMS CDMA. UTMS is already used, however HSDPA is quickly being snapped up by service providers world wide. In fact, many countries such as Australia and South Korea have cut their CDMA-EVDO networks in favor of adopting HSDPA.

The point I was arguing with you about was your contention that EDGE uses HSDPA. It doesn't. EDGE has barely anything to do with HSDPA. The only way they're related is in that they're both enhanced air interfaces for a GSM derived mobile phone standard.

EDGE is (usually implemented as) an enhancement to GSM (2.x) (though supposedly an IS-136 version exists too, though everyone I'm aware of got off the D-AMPS train before it had a chance to take off.)

HSDPA is an enhancement to W-CDMA, and thus to UMTS (GSM 3.x) which uses W-CDMA as an air interface.

I'm not sure where you read into my comment that T-Mobile used "Verizon's" CDMA, because nothing to that effect was in my comment at all.

jhedges3
Feb 20, 2007, 02:20 PM
Apologies, I think you've missing the point of my previous post. I simply don't understand why you decided to write such a long and detailed post on the basis that you don't appear to like reading the biased opinions of others...

If everyone posted the way you appear to want people to post, then there would be one post per subject - and it would be like your first, incredibly long post!

It doesn’t really matter (I mean in a way it’s silly to carry on about this). But it’s not clear to me how I can miss your point if you haven’t made it before. To save you the trouble of looking for your initial response to my ‘long and detailed post’:

I have heard of t-tests and ANOVA, as well as correlation and regression, and your post is interesting, but isn't this a mac community discussion forum (see top of any macrumors page)?

The idea is you read all the analysis elsewhere, then post your thoughts / opinions... Or am I wrong there? I actually find it more interesting to hear other peoples' opinions on the subject.

You said nothing about length before. You just said you didn’t think the subject of my post was appropriate since MR is a Mac community discussion forum.

I don’t actually feel that my initial post was unnecessarily long. About 300 out of 2400 words of what I wrote were my own. Another 1100 or so was quotes on the quality of different wireless providers. The remaining 1000, quotes of users and their impressions and judgments of the quality of one provider verses another.

Why 1100 on somewhat redundant partial summaries of the quality of different providers? Well, for one thing, to get people to halfway believe it. To attempt to dispel the reflexive response that the finding that Verizon rates better than Cingular is an outlier (if you only have one or two data points how can you be sure that you don’t just have a funny result). In the same way, the summaries show consistency. And these summaries seem relatively frank. They say things like no provider is perfect, but some are better than others. Here’s how they rate.

My point is this... what's the point of this forum if people can't give their opinions. And, and answer your question above, I know that if I want facts and figures on which is better - Cingular or Verizon - I should go elsewhere. I'm here to read what people think on the subject, and about their personal experiences of Cingular and Verizon.

In any case, if the most you can do is criticize that post for being long or for not being Mac related enough I’m fine with it. It seems as if you’d rather not address why a collection of individual impressions of wireless service are useful, why they’re interesting, and why they’re better positioned to actually address the question of whether one provider is better than another. If you’ve already agreed that they don’t, even in total, tell us very much about whether, for example, Cingular is better or worse than Verizon then why do you find it interesting to read posts that address exactly that?

I never said that people shouldn’t give their opinions. They can and should, just as I’m giving mine. I only challenged whether those opinions can actually provide more insight on something that has been addressed more robustly and more succinctly and more comprehensively elsewhere.

Fiveos22
Feb 20, 2007, 02:25 PM
jobs is quite the negotiater

Stick it to 'em Stevsie!

Cepe Indicum
Feb 20, 2007, 05:22 PM
It doesn’t really matter (I mean in a way it’s silly to carry on about this).

jhedges3, I have to agree with you here, but you have made your point clearly, and I will make mine...

Firstly, you obviously have some experience in analysis, fair play. But, my point is, if someone want facts, figures and analysis on a given subject, they should visit the relevant websites (by all means, provide the readers of MacRumors links if you wish: most do; you have; and I have no problem with this). But the first paragraph, from your initial post was (and here it is to save you the trouble of looking it up):

I fail to understand why so many of you continue to summarize your opinions of-and personal experiences with-one or a few wireless carriers. It’s like trying to get a sense for whether American-made cars are as reliable as Japanese-made ones by having everyone who cared to say something describe their experiences with each of them. In total, we might end up with a few hundred remarks, all from different circumstances, some in half English, some based on a months worth of observations, some on a few years, all rather fragmented and difficult to compare. How bout summaries based on 10,000 responses to standardized questions with sensible analyses and people who address these issues for a living?

It appears the main reason you posted a detailed analysis was because you don't understand why people 'continue to summarise [their] opinions of - and personal experiences with - one or a few wireless carriers'. Hence my comment about this being a mac rumours and discussion forum.

I don't want to stop you posting whatever you want - if you want to post more analysis, go ahead - I'm sure it'll be an interesting read. But please don't do it on the basis that you don't like reading the experiences and opinions of others on a discussion forum.

emoeric
Feb 21, 2007, 11:55 AM
"Best phone ever" is subjective! :-)

Thank God other phone manufacturers don't try tricks like this - we'd be paying much higher prices than we do now!

From all those conditions, Cingular took it from Apple, begging!

I'm wondering what Apple will do in other countries where locking of phones is illegal?


*An apology in advance if someone commented already on this*(I made it to #30 and had to comment)*

Really interesting that you state other countries not allowing locked phones. Europe is definitely going to get this phone as they have always and will always be ahead of the world in cell phone technology (besides japan, but even that is a crap shoot).

I personally feel that there will be a version in the UK or France, etc, that will allow you to use the phone unlocked. Then its a matter of spending another $100 to get the phone from a local importer. Is it work a whopping $700? I dont know.

Personally I hate cingular service. I really do. Ever since they sold the ORIGINAL INFRASTRUCTURE to tmobile back in 2005 (and adopted AT&T's 850mhz)... its just been down hill. Furthermore, what in world is cingular thinking by changing their name to "The New AT&T". The AT&T brand name has suffered so much negative publicity over the past 5 years that this is the worst marketing move in my opinion. AT&T wireless lives in the minds of angry customers as the worst: retail outlet, customer service, and cell phone coverage (however they did have great plan rates).

Its a tough call. I know I am personally waiting for a 2 year upgrade to get the iphone, but I really do not like the AT&T name, the cell service sucks (unless you are using cingular UMTS! That network interoperability is amazing!!!), and the price tag is pretty steep. Alas, Im still a sucker for the love of apple.

Any thoughts on the above?


P.S. I would love to debate about the AT&T brand name thing with anyone, but keep in mind I have a BA in marketing.