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MacRumors
Feb 20, 2007, 12:54 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Though unconfirmed, Financialwire.net (http://new.quote.com/stocks/story.action?id=ITR047r4312) claims that Apple's Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard will be shipping by the end of March "according to sources."

This date corresponds to an earlier report (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/09/mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-ilife-07-and-iwork-07-in-march/) from ThinkSecret that Leopard development was "wrapping up faster than many at Apple even anticipated". Based on this earlier report, the new versions of iLife '07 and iWork '07 are expected alongside Leopard.

Even after many false rumors about potential Apple media events, buzz continues about the possibility of a future Apple release event.



bigraz
Feb 20, 2007, 12:57 AM
Looking forward to this, with my new iPhone, and revised Mac Pro:)

mcarnes
Feb 20, 2007, 01:01 AM
Bah, leopard. I'm holding out for 10.6 Lion.

persept
Feb 20, 2007, 01:04 AM
In that case, Leopard is going on my birthday list :D
Hopefully it will really come out that early. I am really looking forward to these 'secret' features Steve Jobs talked about

mduser63
Feb 20, 2007, 01:06 AM
If it's shipping at the end of March, we should see an announcement in 2-3 weeks. I personally think mid to late April is more likely. Tiger was released in April 2005.

VanNess
Feb 20, 2007, 01:06 AM
You can file this one right along side the Apple superbowl commercial, the Valentine's day Beatles iTunes launch, the so-called February event (or was it January, I can't remember off hand) as another in the recent spate of totally bogus rumors.

Leopard no earlier than end of April.

kainjow
Feb 20, 2007, 01:07 AM
I just hope that Leopard is noticeably faster on the Intel Macs. 10.4's Intel version feels like a hack :)

4God
Feb 20, 2007, 01:08 AM
I just hope that Leopard is noticeably faster on the Intel Macs. 10.4's Intel version feels like a hack :)

You know, you're right IMO. I thought it was just me. Can't
wait for Leopard though.

xtopher
Feb 20, 2007, 01:11 AM
is this the thing that the other post was talkin bout? i read something is happening on the 20th.

Clive At Five
Feb 20, 2007, 01:12 AM
Why would these guys know better than any of us?

Even ThinkSecret has more credibility than randomstockfluctuatorsite.net.

In both cases, I'll believe it when I see it.

-Clive

D3LM3L
Feb 20, 2007, 01:14 AM
I also read that the PowerBook G5s are coming out around the same time.

Zwhaler
Feb 20, 2007, 01:16 AM
Ahh please be true. Then I could buy a MBP!

Analog Kid
Feb 20, 2007, 01:17 AM
I'm not looking forward to this at all... Too many products launched too close together. Doesn't bode well for the wallet...

dansgil
Feb 20, 2007, 01:19 AM
I wonder if iLife '07 will be Leopard only?

VanNess
Feb 20, 2007, 01:21 AM
I also read that the PowerBook G5s are coming out around the same time.

Oh no, that's wrong.

I have a friend who walks her dog with a guy who works as a cab driver who picked up a Compusa salesperson who overheard him say that Phil Schiller walked into the store and was using iChat on one of the store's iMac's to chat with Jobs and he clearly saw him type "PB G5 2/27/07"

So its new Powerbook G5's next Tuesday! :)

Analog Kid
Feb 20, 2007, 01:21 AM
I wonder if iLife '07 will be Leopard only?
I doubt it, but it will probably use Leopard features if they're available... Holding the release until you can make use of all the bell-and-whistles kinda makes sense.

I have a friend who walks her dog with a guy who works as a cab driver who picked up a Compusa salesperson who overheard him say that Phil Schiller walked into the store and was using iChat on one of the store's iMac's to chat with Jobs and he clearly saw him type "PB G5 2/27/07"

So its new Powerbook G5's next Tuesday! :)

Award winning!

xtopher
Feb 20, 2007, 01:23 AM
broken telephone at its finest

Chaszmyr
Feb 20, 2007, 01:24 AM
Bah, leopard. I'm holding out for 10.6 Lion.

Bah, that won't compare to OSXI Voltron.


Anyway, end of March sounds pretty darn great to me. It also sounds reasonable. Let's hope that this is accurate, and let's hope that we hear something about the "top secret features" within the next week or two!

DMann
Feb 20, 2007, 01:32 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Though unconfirmed, Financialwire.net (http://new.quote.com/stocks/story.action?id=ITR047r4312) claims that Apple's Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard will be shipping by the end of March "according to sources."

This date corresponds to an earlier report (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/09/mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-ilife-07-and-iwork-07-in-march/) from ThinkSecret that Leopard development was "wrapping up faster than many at Apple even anticipated". Based on this earlier report, the new versions of iLife '07 and iWork '07 are expected alongside Leopard.

Even after many false rumors about potential Apple media events, buzz continues about the possibility of a future Apple release event.

Beautiful, I can hardly wait.........

DMann
Feb 20, 2007, 01:35 AM
Bah, leopard. I'm holding out for 10.6 Lion.

10.6 Lion will be comin' out sooner than you think;) Gotta keep up with
MS, ya know, why they're almost caught up to OS 8.5............

Stridder44
Feb 20, 2007, 01:35 AM
broken telephone at its finest


You are made of win. 10.5 at the end of march, installed on a G5 Powerbook demoing Duke Nukem Forever.

BWhaler
Feb 20, 2007, 01:36 AM
I just hope that Leopard is noticeably faster on the Intel Macs. 10.4's Intel version feels like a hack :)

I agree. I am stunned at how NOT fast the Intel version is most of the time.

thejadedmonkey
Feb 20, 2007, 01:42 AM
I also read that the PowerBook G5s are coming out around the same time.Ahh please be true. Then I could buy a MBP!
Don't you mean a PB? ;)

xtopher
Feb 20, 2007, 01:43 AM
You are made of win. 10.5 at the end of march, installed on a G5 Powerbook demoing Duke Nukem Forever.

HUH?!:eek:

synth3tik
Feb 20, 2007, 01:49 AM
I feel like an feind waiting for his fix, I JUST WANT IT NOW!!.


really, we have all waited long enough.

haha

JZ Wire
Feb 20, 2007, 01:57 AM
Wow I hope they are right. Ive been putting off buying my new mac till Leopard is released. Ive even got a new 500GB LaCie external HD waiting for Time Machine to arrive. My poor 12'' PB G4 is not as great as it used to be.

balamw
Feb 20, 2007, 02:03 AM
10.5 at the end of march, installed on a G5 Powerbook demoing Duke Nukem Forever.
Great Ceasar's Ghost. Beware the ends of March (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ides_Of_March)! Close enough, right?

B

Osarkon
Feb 20, 2007, 02:28 AM
Unless some amazing new feature is going to be announced for Leopard then I think i'll be sticking with what I have...there doesn't seem to be that many new features that I'd use.

Mind you, if it does run faster on Intel hardware than the current OS X , then I might find myself getting a copy with my educational discount:rolleyes:

shadowmoses
Feb 20, 2007, 02:31 AM
It would be great if this was the real time period for release, OSX could do with a new lease of life especially for Intel mac's.....
The timing does make sense seeing as Vista just got released, Apple must be waiting for the hype to die down and BOOM launch Leopard...

ShadoW

simX
Feb 20, 2007, 02:31 AM
It would be kind of cool to see Leopard released on the 6th birthday of Mac OS X (March 24th), but I'm not holding my breath. I am, though, looking forward to Leopard itself. New feature giddiness is almost setting in. :)

swingerofbirch
Feb 20, 2007, 02:33 AM
If ever ye grow impatient, think only of the poor Windows fanboy, who sat five years in anticipation and got only a lump of coal--err--Windows Vista Super Ultimate Happy Hour Edition, I mean.

siurpeeman
Feb 20, 2007, 02:41 AM
with all this talk of "secret features" that have yet to be revealed, does anybody think this will only be a lot of empty promises?

MacFly123
Feb 20, 2007, 02:57 AM
IMHO, Leopard will have "Multi-Touch" built into it as we know that it is already in the "Light" version of OSX on the iPhone. This will then be implemented in the small touchpad computer device which has heretofore been called the "new jaw-dropping device" due out early next year, which will be basically a home/media center controller, and the iHome will be here at last :)

One more step towards the "Apple Minority Report" merger :) hehe

aswitcher
Feb 20, 2007, 03:12 AM
Mmm. Apple like doing things early - intel switch.

Renderz
Feb 20, 2007, 03:13 AM
I'm not looking forward to this at all... Too many products launched too close together. Doesn't bode well for the wallet...

LOL, you know what...I was thinking exactly the same thing. I spent £2100 (that's over 4000USD to my American friends) in January. I convinced myself that would all I would spend on toys this year, but there are so many other toys I'm hearing about it's gonna hurt!

iMikeT
Feb 20, 2007, 03:15 AM
With all these rumors of Leopard coming out sooner than expected, I don't know what to believe.

bigandy
Feb 20, 2007, 03:19 AM
With all these rumors of Leopard coming out sooner than expected, I don't know what to believe.

just don't believe anything. i'm optomistic my pessimism is the way to go. :)

4np
Feb 20, 2007, 04:23 AM
damn... just after my ADC student account expires :S I hope I will still get it though...

Superdrive
Feb 20, 2007, 04:23 AM
ThinkSecret is FinancialTimes' source I'd bet. No Leopard til June!

synth3tik
Feb 20, 2007, 04:24 AM
with all this talk of "secret features" that have yet to be revealed, does anybody think this will only be a lot of empty promises?

I have been less then impressed with some Apple offerings, but I can not say I have ever seen any empty promises.

Who knows how great the "secret Features" will be, sadly though I believe we will not see the fullpower of these features right away as no developers for 3rd party software that I know of know what these secret features are.

joelovesapple
Feb 20, 2007, 04:39 AM
One step at a time - where's 10.4.9?

curmi
Feb 20, 2007, 04:47 AM
One step at a time - where's 10.4.9?

10.4.9 required for iLife '07 perhaps?

Regardless, if this rumour is true it probably means no new interface, and very few "secret" new functionality. Not enough time for beta testers to test them - and the beta testers haven't been given anything new like this yet.

So I call that the date is either wrong (too early), or Apple spent too much time and money on the iPhone and neglected Mac OS X...

Erasmus
Feb 20, 2007, 05:00 AM
Yum yum...
End of March eh? Know what else gets released at the end of March? the R600 XTX! One tasty 8-core Clovertown Crossfiring DX10 R600XTX uber melt your eyes out Mac Pro with Leopard installed not coming my way :( but some lucky people's way soon! :p

Of course it could all be BS, in which case general misery shall be felt by all, at least until the next awesome rumour.

chubad
Feb 20, 2007, 05:32 AM
[QUOTE=synth3tik;3372573]I have been less then impressed with some Apple offerings, but I can not say I have ever seen any empty promises.

Really?

Delicious-Apple
Feb 20, 2007, 05:34 AM
It's been said before...

All of the technology/developer tools have been released. Any secret functionality (if indeed there is any) will come from integrated applications. Applications don't require testing outside of Cupertino..

Possibilities:
Maps, Home Automation, iLife Built-In and many more
The Finder is also an Application ;)


Multi-Touch is the only feature I would expect to see at some point that doesn't really fit in here. It could be possible as an App tho (I suppose).

Steven Jackson
Feb 20, 2007, 05:38 AM
I've got no sources or inside info, but this sounds unlikely to me...

I want this stuff as much as the next man, but I reckon it'll happen like this:

Tiger 10.4.9, AppleTV, iLife (including new iTunes), iWork: very soon.

Leopard: WWDC.

Mac Pro: somewhere between the two.

But then again, that could be complete guesswork (of course it is...)

Cheers,

Steve.

Di9it8
Feb 20, 2007, 05:45 AM
When is it coming!!

mark88
Feb 20, 2007, 06:03 AM
with all this talk of "secret features" that have yet to be revealed, does anybody think this will only be a lot of empty promises?

yes

If they announce Leopard and it turns out they haven't made changes to the Finder.

I'm buying Vista. :D

dukeblue91
Feb 20, 2007, 06:15 AM
All though I highly doubt it, I say bring it on.
I'm so ready for some new stuff.

daneoni
Feb 20, 2007, 06:20 AM
Unless some amazing new feature is going to be announced for Leopard then I think i'll be sticking with what I have...there doesn't seem to be that many new features that I'd use.

Mind you, if it does run faster on Intel hardware than the current OS X , then I might find myself getting a copy with my educational discount:rolleyes:

Amen. Unless there is an major overhaul in Finder (Apple might as well just buy out Path Finder) and Safari, i have nothing to look forward to in Leopard. Even speed....it'll have to be 'majorly' fast b4 i reach for my wallet.

GenesisST
Feb 20, 2007, 06:24 AM
Bah, leopard. I'm holding out for 10.6 Lion.

Me, it's for 10.7 Garfield

Luis
Feb 20, 2007, 06:31 AM
Me, it's for 10.7 Garfield

Or 10.8 Liger :D

BenRoethig
Feb 20, 2007, 06:54 AM
One would think they'd have some kind of announcement soon if it were come out in march. Releasing an operating system lowkey doesn't seem very Apple like. They probably woulde have said something at MWSF too. I'm still placing my bet on June 11.

Manic Mouse
Feb 20, 2007, 06:58 AM
It makes you wonder why Apple bothered demonstrating leopard last August at all. I mean if it's released in June that'll be nearly a year since it's preview. We've heard literally nothing on Leopard for 6 months, which I think is just a little ridiculous.

Lonon
Feb 20, 2007, 07:06 AM
They have registered Cougar and Linx. So 10.6 and 10.7 are there. But i think we're not going to see any 10.8 and the like. Remember OS 9? It was little from OS 7 and it was rushed to 9 to sell later OS X, so now that there's no rush, maybe they push OS X 11 or whatever [because the X is here to stay...] and forget about the cats. They can choose another name or continue but without the cat thing... :rolleyes:

BTW: Also expect to see the iMac to be call ":apple:Mac". But "iPod" is not going away.

Max Payne
Feb 20, 2007, 07:06 AM
Or 10.8 Liger :D

Or 10.9 Tom :D

psychofreak
Feb 20, 2007, 07:17 AM
Or 10.9 Tom :D

You're wrong...I think there has to be at least one called 'Top'

Kelmon
Feb 20, 2007, 07:18 AM
ThinkSecret is FinancialTimes' source I'd bet. No Leopard til June!

Agreed. I don't think that Leopard stands a snowball's chance in hell of being released before June. March is clearly nonsense since there has been no new official information about Leopard since WWDC last year so I really cannot see it being released without something approaching a release candidate build of the OS. Current information seems to suggest that the recent builds definitely aren't ready for prime-time and there's been zero mention of the "Secret Features" that Steve gave mention to last year.

This said, maybe the development of the "Secret Features" have slipped such that Apple is prepared to release the update without them in order to release closer to Vista. That's possible, although I certainly hope that this isn't true and that Apple doesn't start marching to Microsoft's beat on this one.

maccam
Feb 20, 2007, 07:34 AM
uh... leopard is comming june 15th

lord patton
Feb 20, 2007, 07:35 AM
I think they're just trying to get some traffic. Did you see all the links to obscure market tools and analyses? Right in the body's text? With no relevence to the "news"?

syklee26
Feb 20, 2007, 07:38 AM
i am starting to believe that the so-called secret features have everything to do with iphones. it didn't make sense for Jobs to make a presentation if it had something to do with iphones at that time because that would reveal the existence of the phone before the release.


speaking of leopard, does anybody know if you can back up using time machine on a hard drive attached to that new airport extreme that let you share the drive wirelessly? that would be pretty cool...

Digitalclips
Feb 20, 2007, 07:41 AM
Unless some amazing new feature is going to be announced for Leopard then I think i'll be sticking with what I have...there doesn't seem to be that many new features that I'd use.

Mind you, if it does run faster on Intel hardware than the current OS X , then I might find myself getting a copy with my educational discount:rolleyes:

I suspect 'Amazing' it will be ... so open that wallet ...

Digitalclips
Feb 20, 2007, 07:51 AM
speaking of leopard, does anybody know if you can back up using time machine on a hard drive attached to that new airport extreme that let you share the drive wirelessly? that would be pretty cool...

I am almost sure it can. I installed the new Airport Extreme this weekend I have Apple's BackUp doing just that every day now from several Macs so why not Time Machine? It is also now hosting an Epson printer and all Macs print well to it as well as a monitor-less PC (run from a Mac with DeskTop Remote) and XP in Parallels (all using Bonjour).

Off topic but while mentioning Aiport Extreme, the best thing for me was the range increase. My old iBook G4 (used for reading web pages now only) which is obviously 11.g has seen a phenomenal increase in wi-fi range. Using my Verizon FiOS wi-fi it was able to network within the house and just on the to the deck. I turned off the Verizon wi-fi and switched to the Apple Extreme yesterday and I walked the iBook down the road and out of our subdivision's gate, this is about 500 yards. The signal was still 100%! I could not believe my eyes.

syklee26
Feb 20, 2007, 08:00 AM
I am almost sure it can. I installed the new Airport Extreme this weekend I have Apple's BackUp doing just that every day now from several Macs so why not Time Machine? It is also now hosting an Epson printer and all Macs print well to it as well as a monitor-less PC (run from a Mac with DeskTop Remote) and XP in Parallels (all using Bonjour).

Off topic but while mentioning Aiport Extreme, the best thing for me was the range increase. My old iBook G4 (used for reading web pages now only) which is obviously 11.g has seen a phenomenal increase in wi-fi range. Using my Verizon FiOS wi-fi it was able to network within the house and just on the to the deck. I turned off the Verizon wi-fi and switched to the Apple Extreme yesterday and I walked the iBook down the road and out of our subdivision's gate, this is about 500 yards. The signal was still 100%! I could not believe my eyes.



interesting. I have a MBP that didn't ship with 11N so I was hesitant about getting the new airport extreme.....did you notice any speed increase besides the range increase?

twoodcc
Feb 20, 2007, 08:02 AM
well i sure can't wait for this.....just please hurry...:apple:

wrldwzrd89
Feb 20, 2007, 08:05 AM
I'm looking forward to Leopard as much as everyone else is, especially since I have an Intel-based Mac now. However, I doubt that it'll be released in March. We've had very little Leopard-related news, and what little we've had suggests that serious bugs still exist in the latest Leopard builds. I'm thinking April or May, if not June, for a Leopard release.

Highland
Feb 20, 2007, 08:07 AM
It makes you wonder why Apple bothered demonstrating leopard last August at all. I mean if it's released in June that'll be nearly a year since it's preview. We've heard literally nothing on Leopard for 6 months, which I think is just a little ridiculous.
WWDC and OS previews are more for developers than customers. Devs need that time to make sure their apps work (and also to help Apple test that they haven't broken anything).

I am almost sure it can. I installed the new Airport Extreme this weekend I have Apple's BackUp doing just that every day now from several Macs so why not Time Machine?
Wow. That's pretty cool. I think I'll do that too :)

Stella
Feb 20, 2007, 08:12 AM
I'm wondering if the "top secret features" statement was in fact BS code for "well, there's nothing much new in Tiger yet, or stable enough to show - since we are behind schedule".

Apple said release in Spring - so if they have got buffer time - that time could be well spent on extra QA time to get the bug count down a little bit.

Apple, buck the trend and make a good XX.0 release.

Dicx
Feb 20, 2007, 08:25 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Though unconfirmed, Financialwire.net (http://new.quote.com/stocks/story.action?id=ITR047r4312) claims that Apple's Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard will be shipping by the end of March "according to sources."

This date corresponds to an earlier report (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/09/mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-ilife-07-and-iwork-07-in-march/) from ThinkSecret that Leopard development was "wrapping up faster than many at Apple even anticipated". Based on this earlier report, the new versions of iLife '07 and iWork '07 are expected alongside Leopard.

Even after many false rumors about potential Apple media events, buzz continues about the possibility of a future Apple release event.

No way, on ADC Apple hasn't even released a beta release yet. So that means that developers have only had alpha releases. Even though the GM of 10.4 was 8A428, there have been not been enough developer builds on ADC to warrant it even being close.

wrldwzrd89
Feb 20, 2007, 08:30 AM
No way, on ADC Apple hasn't even released a beta release yet. So that means that developers have only had alpha releases. Even though the GM of 10.4 was 8A428, there have been not been enough developer builds on ADC to warrant it even being close.
Nope. The build numbering system has nothing to do with alphas and betas. Heck, we don't even know what's considered alpha and beta by Apple... though I think it's safe to assume that the Leopard builds that developers outside Apple have are beta builds.

Remember:
8 = 8th iteration of Darwin (the core on which Mac OS X is based)
A = first fork of the 8th iteration
428 = 428th build of the first iteration of the 8th fork

You can dissect other build numbers in much the same way.

For example:
9A343, the latest Leopard build I can find reported about on MacRumors:

9 = 9th iteration of Darwin
A = first fork
343 = 343rd build

Diatribe
Feb 20, 2007, 08:30 AM
I just hope that Leopard is noticeably faster on the Intel Macs. 10.4's Intel version feels like a hack :)

Well I sure hope this is due to OS X and not the Intel procs, Windows isn't exactly having a good time multi-tasking either.

ppnkg
Feb 20, 2007, 08:36 AM
Amen to that.

generationxwing
Feb 20, 2007, 08:38 AM
My GF and I weren't getting our iMac until May anyway (unless Leopard is ready after that, then we'll wait) so at this point it could be out tomorrow or in a month. Doesn't matter all that much to me.

KindredMAC
Feb 20, 2007, 08:52 AM
OS X 11 Voltron........ too funny!

Are there any legitimate Apple Events other than WWDC happening soon? I can't see Apple releasing Leopard without a special event to show off some of these "top secret" features.

Wouldn't it be funny if one of the top secret features was an updated Exposť that looked just like Vista's version of Exposť? I would die if something snuck past Apple like that.

dmelgar
Feb 20, 2007, 08:52 AM
Any thoughts on when an updated Mac Mini might show up?

I've been waiting to get a Duo Core 2 Mac Mini with 802.11n running Leopard. Hope they show up reasonably soon. June seems like a long way away.

Not sure if its a good move for Steve Jobs to tell customers to stop buying Macs to wait for a year (August to June) before buying a Mac with the OS he's pre-announced.

justflie
Feb 20, 2007, 08:57 AM
With Blu-ray and HD-DVD support seemingly built into the DVD Player in Leopard, when do you guys think we'll see readers and/or burners in the pro line (more specifically, the laptops). I just read somewhere that Dell (boooooo) has already incorporated Blu-ray burners into their high-end laptop line. So I would guess the next rev of MBP would have them too... What do you think?

elppa
Feb 20, 2007, 08:59 AM
I wonder if iLife '07 will be Leopard only?


I'd guess it would be 10.5 and backward compatible with 10.4.9.

But that's a guess, as with everything in life, only smarties have the answer.

KingofAwesome
Feb 20, 2007, 09:00 AM
I think I'm buying my 20" iMac next week, updated specs and OS or not. I am feeling uneasy about it, but I have been waiting for a few months and my friend is buying my mini and also getting tired of waiting. I'd rather buy within the window before the new OS comes out but you get a free upgrade (preferably to iLife as well) so I can still use Tiger until Leopard has proven itself to be stable. But they probably don't base their plans around me. Yet.

brianus
Feb 20, 2007, 09:01 AM
Well I sure hope this is due to OS X and not the Intel procs, Windows isn't exactly having a good time multi-tasking either.

Wow, this is the first I've heard such comments -- could you elaborate on what feels sluggish on Intel Macs that doesn't on PowerPC?

mdntcallr
Feb 20, 2007, 09:01 AM
I also read that the PowerBook G5s are coming out around the same time.

correct, maybe it is coming at the same time as the new apple game console

Ted13
Feb 20, 2007, 09:03 AM
Any thoughts on when an updated Mac Mini might show up?

I've been waiting to get a Duo Core 2 Mac Mini with 802.11n running Leopard. Hope they show up reasonably soon. June seems like a long way away.
A Mac Mini upgrade to 802.11n pretty much has to happen when AppleTV ships. I'm expecting an end of February Apple Event.

SBik2
Feb 20, 2007, 09:05 AM
Unless some amazing new feature is going to be announced for Leopard then I think i'll be sticking with what I have...there doesn't seem to be that many new features that I'd use.

Mind you, if it does run faster on Intel hardware than the current OS X , then I might find myself getting a copy with my educational discount:rolleyes:

do you think the edu price for the single user will be $69 like how tiger is now? Cuz if so, theres no way im letting that pass me by at that price without buying it.

mdntcallr
Feb 20, 2007, 09:06 AM
With Blu-ray and HD-DVD support seemingly built into the DVD Player in Leopard, when do you guys think we'll see readers and/or burners in the pro line (more specifically, the laptops). I just read somewhere that Dell (boooooo) has already incorporated Blu-ray burners into their high-end laptop line. So I would guess the next rev of MBP would have them too... What do you think?

I agree. I want to get Blu-Ray on a new desktop for me, and potentially a new laptop.

But considering i bought my C2D MBP in the spring, my priority is the desktop.

Diatribe
Feb 20, 2007, 09:09 AM
Wow, this is the first I've heard such comments -- could you elaborate on what feels sluggish on Intel Macs that doesn't on PowerPC?

There are several people that OS X feels sluggish to since the switch to Intel.
Frequent beachballing on high RAM machines among other things.

I don't remember having those problems on my G4 1.33GHz with Tiger.

Either the Intel version of OS X is programmed really badly or it is something with the Intel procs. I am hoping for OS X but we will see I guess.

badcrumble
Feb 20, 2007, 09:20 AM
The Mac OS X kernel hasn't been updated and fully optimized for Intel procs; if it were, it'd be blazingly fast, I'm sure, but my guess is that there are problems with supporting two different kernels (one PPC optimized, the other optimized for Intel).

telegix
Feb 20, 2007, 09:23 AM
I have been thinking.. Could it be possible that iLife will be included with Leopard? Honestly, having beta tested Vista since Jan '06 for MS, I can say it's utterly rubbish. However, it does finaly include many of the functionatly of iLife if you buy the normal Vista. For example, if you read www.xvsxp.com and see OS X really does suck in iLife realted things, without iLife installed.. It's ok, but I could never imagine using a mac without iLife.. They should bundle it with Leopard and then sell everyone '08, '09, etc till they have a new OS. Then bundle it again.. :)

cal6n
Feb 20, 2007, 09:24 AM
I just hope that Leopard is noticeably faster on the Intel Macs. 10.4's Intel version feels like a hack :)

It's not that the intel version is a hack. It's that the intel architecture is a lash-up. A fast lash-up, I'll grant you, but it's still a lash-up compared to PPC.

Porchland
Feb 20, 2007, 09:24 AM
You can file this one right along side the Apple superbowl commercial, the Valentine's day Beatles iTunes launch, the so-called February event (or was it January, I can't remember off hand) as another in the recent spate of totally bogus rumors.

Leopard no earlier than end of April.

Yeah, wasn't the "February event" supposed to be today?

Leopard and the widescreen iPod are looming like a pair of giant sumo wrestlers. I wonder now which one will show up first?

Mac Fly (film)
Feb 20, 2007, 09:26 AM
My expectations are so high Leopard can only disappoint me.

Gee4orce
Feb 20, 2007, 09:26 AM
It's not that the intel version is a hack. It's that the intel architecture is a lash-up. A fast lash-up, I'll grant you, but it's still a lash-up compared to PPC.

I really don't know what you guys are talking about. Maybe you're running too much stuff in Rosetta ?

My Intel mini runs faster than my old G5 !

Porchland
Feb 20, 2007, 09:29 AM
Or 10.8 Liger :D

Well said.

http://andrew.serff.net/uploads/Liger/liger.jpg

Diatribe
Feb 20, 2007, 09:30 AM
The Mac OS X kernel hasn't been updated and fully optimized for Intel procs; if it were, it'd be blazingly fast, I'm sure, but my guess is that there are problems with supporting two different kernels (one PPC optimized, the other optimized for Intel).

It's not that the intel version is a hack. It's that the intel architecture is a lash-up. A fast lash-up, I'll grant you, but it's still a lash-up compared to PPC.

I guess we will find out when Leopard is released.

cal6n
Feb 20, 2007, 09:30 AM
Bah, leopard. I'm holding out for 10.6 Lion.

There won't be a 10.6, OS XI will be next.

Anyone remember Steve announcing Tiger? I'm sure he said something like "This is Tiger and there'll be one more version after this" only not in as many words. It's infuriating that I can't remember his exact words. I think his RDF was up to max that day!

brianus
Feb 20, 2007, 09:41 AM
I have been thinking.. Could it be possible that iLife will be included with Leopard? Honestly, having beta tested Vista since Jan '06 for MS, I can say it's utterly rubbish. However, it does finaly include many of the functionatly of iLife if you buy the normal Vista. For example, if you read www.xvsxp.com and see OS X really does suck in iLife realted things, without iLife installed.. It's ok, but I could never imagine using a mac without iLife.. They should bundle it with Leopard and then sell everyone '08, '09, etc till they have a new OS. Then bundle it again.. :)

I've been using Macs for two years (three at work) and, aside from the once-in-a-blue-moon use of iPhoto (which I've largely superceded with Photoshop anyway), I've never had a use for any of the iLife apps that came bundled with my mini. Really, how essential are they? As far as I can see they're all for amateurs self-producing media, and most people just don't do that.

Anyway, Macs come with iLife bundled, so all 'switchers' will be exposed to iLife as if it had been included with OS X. Only the longer-term Mac users wanting an upgrade will have to pay extra, and if they want those kinds of features they'd certainly do that rather than switch to Vista :rolleyes: . Smart strategy, really; I can't see why they'd change it.

puuukeey
Feb 20, 2007, 09:44 AM
http://www.weejohn.com/homer18.gif
mmmmm secret features....



IMO, barring some extremely new stuff, 10.5 is still kind of a let down. I'm ready for a revisited macbook with a *multitouch screen* and direct integration into the os. Hows that for "Wow."

-matt

/they wouldn't know wow from bleh.
//slashies

jaw04005
Feb 20, 2007, 09:44 AM
There will be no Leopard until Apple ramps up the developer seeds. As of now, Leopard still looks like a June release.

balance0211
Feb 20, 2007, 09:45 AM
The email says that Apple will announce Leopard by the end of March. And we have the opportunity to pool a large amount Leopard copies to get discount before March 2Xth. SINCE WE HAVE TO LET APPLE KNOW BEFORE THE LEOPARD ANNOUNCEMENT TO GET DISCOUNT, the release of Leopard at the end of March is very reliable.

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Though unconfirmed, Financialwire.net (http://new.quote.com/stocks/story.action?id=ITR047r4312) claims that Apple's Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard will be shipping by the end of March "according to sources."

This date corresponds to an earlier report (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/09/mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-ilife-07-and-iwork-07-in-march/) from ThinkSecret that Leopard development was "wrapping up faster than many at Apple even anticipated". Based on this earlier report, the new versions of iLife '07 and iWork '07 are expected alongside Leopard.

Even after many false rumors about potential Apple media events, buzz continues about the possibility of a future Apple release event.

morespce54
Feb 20, 2007, 09:46 AM
You know, you're right IMO. I thought it was just me. Can't
wait for Leopard though.

I second that... I like Tiger but it feels faster (and snappier) on my PPC... Plus, I'm having some minor glitchs on my Intel that I didn't had on my PPC (computer doesn't always go into sleep mode by itself. When it does, it takes time for the computer to wake up, etc.)

LDK
Feb 20, 2007, 09:49 AM
If you buy a Macbook today with Tiger installed, will Apple offer you a free upgrade to Leopard when it ships (assuming it ships end of March)? Usually, they allow some sort of window so you don't buy a computer that has an obsolete OS three weeks later.

wrldwzrd89
Feb 20, 2007, 09:52 AM
If you buy a Macbook today with Tiger installed, will Apple offer you a free upgrade to Leopard when it ships (assuming it ships end of March)? Usually, they allow some sort of window so you don't buy a computer that has an obsolete OS three weeks later.
Apple does indeed offer such a program, but the window is usually 15 days, not 3 weeks, and doesn't start until an official release date is announced.

justflie
Feb 20, 2007, 09:54 AM
If you buy a Macbook today with Tiger installed, will Apple offer you a free upgrade to Leopard when it ships (assuming it ships end of March)? Usually, they allow some sort of window so you don't buy a computer that has an obsolete OS three weeks later.
Usually there is some sort or provision like that. However, I think they would need to have already set a launch date for that to take effect. In other words, why say, "if you buy a mac today, you get leopard for free" since that would give away an imminent leopard release? Will they do it retroactively? I don't know. I think Tiger's grace period was 3 weeks or something like that. I ended up in that period (woohoo) after i had bought my mac mini with panther installed.

2ndPath
Feb 20, 2007, 09:58 AM
I've been using Macs for two years (three at work) and, aside from the once-in-a-blue-moon use of iPhoto (which I've largely superceded with Photoshop anyway), I've never had a use for any of the iLife apps that came bundled with my mini. Really, how essential are they? As far as I can see they're all for amateurs self-producing media, and most people just don't do that.

Anyway, Macs come with iLife bundled, so all 'switchers' will be exposed to iLife as if it had been included with OS X. Only the longer-term Mac users wanting an upgrade will have to pay extra, and if they want those kinds of features they'd certainly do that rather than switch to Vista :rolleyes: . Smart strategy, really; I can't see why they'd change it.

Actually, didn't Apple offer a bundle in the past with the then newest operating system and the currenct iLife, which was a bit cheaper than the sum of both? They could do that again. But they shouldn't stop offering OS X without iLife.

KingofAwesome
Feb 20, 2007, 09:59 AM
Usually there is some sort or provision like that. However, I think they would need to have already set a launch date for that to take effect. In other words, why say, "if you buy a mac today, you get leopard for free" since that would give away an imminent leopard release? Will they do it retroactively? I don't know. I think Tiger's grace period was 3 weeks or something like that. I ended up in that period (woohoo) after i had bought my mac mini with panther installed.

That's the window I'm hoping to get into... I just wish they'd do an incremental iMac update really soon, like within the next week. Maybe the day :apple:TV ships...

goosnarrggh
Feb 20, 2007, 10:02 AM
There are several people that OS X feels sluggish to since the switch to Intel.
Frequent beachballing on high RAM machines among other things.

I don't remember having those problems on my G4 1.33GHz with Tiger.

Either the Intel version of OS X is programmed really badly or it is something with the Intel procs. I am hoping for OS X but we will see I guess.

Hopefully with Leopard going 64-bit, the Core 2 Duo and Xeon variants of the OS will take advantage of the doubling the number of general-purpose registers available so that tight loops don't need to swap in and out of RAM as often.

That alone could offer some significant bottleneck relief. Consider that IA32 and "x86_64-in-32-bit-mode" programs currently only have access to 8 GPRs compared to the PPC's 32. In 64-bit mode. x86_64 processors have 16 GPRs.

cal6n
Feb 20, 2007, 10:03 AM
*snip* Plus, I'm having some minor glitchs on my Intel that I didn't had on my PPC (computer doesn't always go into sleep mode by itself. When it does, it takes time for the computer to wake up, etc.)

Just the sort of stuff that I've noticed. I doubt that's the OS. I put it down to EFI being crap when compared with open firmware.

LDK
Feb 20, 2007, 10:05 AM
Apple does indeed offer such a program, but the window is usually 15 days, not 3 weeks, and doesn't start until an official release date is announced.

Thanks.

I can force a release date for Leopard -- but it will be 16 days after I place the order.

Cougar and Lynx are nice, but what about Puma and Cheetah?

Lonon
Feb 20, 2007, 10:08 AM
Well said.

http://andrew.serff.net/uploads/Liger/liger.jpg

LOL

mattscott306
Feb 20, 2007, 10:09 AM
Cougar and Lynx are nice, but what about Puma and Cheetah?
Cheetah and puma were osx 10.0 and 10.1 respectively. Lynx and Cougar have not been used yet (I imagine 10.8 will be cougar).

shawnce
Feb 20, 2007, 10:11 AM
I put it down to EFI being crap when compared with open firmware. No. EFI is rather good... it allows hardware discovery and device tree building in a ways that are faster then open firmware model allowed.

Most often I have found sleep issue to be a result of a processing stalling in such a way as to not allow sleep.

Lonon
Feb 20, 2007, 10:15 AM
Actually, didn't Apple offer a bundle in the past with the then newest operating system and the currenct iLife, which was a bit cheaper than the sum of both? They could do that again. But they shouldn't stop offering OS X without iLife.

Agreed. If you buy Leopard you have to get also iLife, this isn't Microsoft, nobody cares if Apple offer something into the mix that was already been out there in some third party. Like widgets and Sherlock, this is the way to go.

Is iLife a secret feature?

BWhaler
Feb 20, 2007, 10:17 AM
But they probably don't base their plans around me. Yet.

Funniest line this week.

ironring2006
Feb 20, 2007, 10:17 AM
Thanks.

I can force a release date for Leopard -- but it will be 16 days after I place the order.

Cougar and Lynx are nice, but what about Puma and Cheetah?

Joking right? They were the first two codenames

OSX 10.0 - Cheetah
OSX 10.1 - Puma
OSX 10.2 - Jaguar
OSX 10.3 - Panther
OSX 10.4 - Tiger
OSX 10.5 - Leopard

Although someone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but Puma and Cheetah were internal codenames, and Jaguar was the first to be marketed as such.

LDK
Feb 20, 2007, 10:27 AM
Joking right? They were the first two codenames

OSX 10.0 - Cheetah
OSX 10.1 - Puma
OSX 10.2 - Jaguar
OSX 10.3 - Panther
OSX 10.4 - Tiger
OSX 10.5 - Leopard

Although someone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but Puma and Cheetah were internal codenames, and Jaguar was the first to be marketed as such.


Well, if I knew, I wouldn't have asked. You guys would know much more than me.

I suspect that they were indeed internal names, because the first I heard of was Jaguar.

twoodcc
Feb 20, 2007, 10:28 AM
Is iLife a secret feature?

i think you might be on to something.....:apple:

roland.g
Feb 20, 2007, 10:38 AM
somehow I doubt they will let me take advantage of the Final Cut Express HD 3.5 for $99 with any new Mac which expires March 27th and get Leopard pre-installed/disc included.

JGowan
Feb 20, 2007, 10:45 AM
Apple Inc (NASDAQ: AAPL) is set to release its Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard as early as the end of March, according to sources.According to SOURCES?! YOUR SOURCE WAS OUR SOURCE, FRIG'TARD: APPLE! They said SPRING!! WHICH IS LATE MARCH!

Talk about having nothing to say and still reporting on it.

psychofreak
Feb 20, 2007, 10:47 AM
According to SOURCES?! YOUR SOURCE WAS OUR SOURCE, FRIG'TARD: APPLE! They said SPRING!! WHICH IS LATE MARCH!

Talk about having nothing to say and still reporting on it.

Spring goes until sometime in June...June 11th falls under that...

JGowan
Feb 20, 2007, 10:49 AM
I suspect that they were indeed internal names, because the first I heard of was Jaguar.They were probably internal CODE NAMES after-the-fact. I highly doubt they had the foresight to see that coming or we would've heard about the others earlier when OS X was first released as beta (which I was a part of -- and hated.) They would've made sure we got the CAT references from the git-go. Now that they're "internal code names", I have to call BS.

JGowan
Feb 20, 2007, 10:51 AM
Spring goes until sometime in June...June 11th falls under that...Sorry - I've been reading Fake Steve lately and have been looking for a way to use FRIG'TARD in a sentence. I may have been a little over-zealous. :rolleyes:

guzhogi
Feb 20, 2007, 10:51 AM
According to SOURCES?! YOUR SOURCE WAS OUR SOURCE, FRIG'TARD: APPLE! They said SPRING!! WHICH IS LATE MARCH!

Talk about having nothing to say and still reporting on it.

Chill out man! As psychofreak said, Spring last from the end of March until June. That's a 3 month window. Just cool off! As time goes on, they'll have a better idea of how much longer it'll be!

bill4588
Feb 20, 2007, 11:03 AM
I think we should all just calm down. 10.5 will be released when it is ready and there's nothing we can do about it. Just relax and enjoy 10.4.8. I know the anticipation is fun and something to talk about, but anticipation can also be stressful.

psychofreak
Feb 20, 2007, 11:07 AM
Sorry - I've been reading Fake Steve lately and have been looking for a way to use FRIG'TARD in a sentence. I may have been a little over-zealous. :rolleyes:

Chill out man! As psychofreak said, Spring last from the end of March until June. That's a 3 month window. Just cool off! As time goes on, they'll have a better idea of how much longer it'll be!

Wow! An apology and a reference...I am brilliant :rolleyes:

Yupper3D
Feb 20, 2007, 11:18 AM
We'll I've been lurking this forum for a while now reading up on the rumors and such and I don't think it has helped much. I guess itís the very nature of rumors, but I've been getting very disappointed with the lack of reliable information about the release of 10.5. I don't believe this is this site's fault, I think it is a side-effect of the very little information about 10.5 Apple has released since the original presentation in August of last year.

I use Windows at home and Linux at work and I've been anxiously waiting (and saving) for 10.5 to come out and "do the switch" ever since the announcement in August.

I've been tempted to buy my MacBook (high-end white) already many times without waiting for 10.5 to come out, but I eventually decide to wait. I want my new Mac to come factory-installed with 10.5 along with 10.5 restore disks, and iLife '07, etc.

Problem is, I heard the MacBooks will take about a month after Leopard's release to begin shipping with the new OS :( And as much I would love to have my new Mac soon, I believe Apple will take until the end of spring to release Leopard. If that's June, that means that the earliest I can do the switch would be mid to end of July of 2007. Oh well, I guess I should stop reading so many rumors and focus on other things until July comes around...

lOUDsCREAMEr
Feb 20, 2007, 11:24 AM
iLife + iWork 07 will be part of Leopard!!
Remember my words!!

Mac Fly (film)
Feb 20, 2007, 11:32 AM
iLife + iWork 07 will be part of Leopard!!
Remember my words!!

You can't pretend you thought of that one first, cause I did, but with Apple there's no guarantees.

JGowan
Feb 20, 2007, 11:32 AM
Wow! An apology and a reference...I am brilliant :rolleyes:It's all good.

ijimk
Feb 20, 2007, 11:32 AM
iLife + iWork 07 will be part of Leopard!!
Remember my words!!

that would be great if leopard remains at the $129 price! :eek:

rambosou
Feb 20, 2007, 11:36 AM
My birthday is April 19th. I'm going to call up Steve Jobs and let him know his present to me could be to release leopard on that day. Wonder if he will or not? ;)

mrkramer
Feb 20, 2007, 11:39 AM
Problem is, I heard the MacBooks will take about a month after Leopard's release to begin shipping with the new OS :( And as much I would love to have my new Mac soon, I believe Apple will take until the end of spring to release Leopard. If that's June, that means that the earliest I can do the switch would be mid to end of July of 2007. Oh well, I guess I should stop reading so many rumors and focus on other things until July comes around...

As soon as Leopard ships the macbooks will have it either installed in them or have leopard disk put in the box. they may announce it and it take a month to start shipping, but from the time they announce it till it ships if you buy one then at the most you will have to pay for shipping and get Leopard for free.

proteus
Feb 20, 2007, 11:39 AM
Unless Apple has significantly changed their seed schedule, I doubt very much that Leopard will be released in March. The latest beta was very unstable and certainly not ready for prime time. That and the fact that the releases have been very few and far between would lead me to believe late April at the earliest.

wrldwzrd89
Feb 20, 2007, 11:42 AM
Unless Apple has significantly changed their seed schedule, I doubt very much that Leopard will be released in March. The latest beta was very unstable and certainly not ready for prime time. That and the fact that the releases have been very few and far between would lead me to believe late April at the earliest.
Couldn't agree with you more, as I said in an earlier post in this thread. I'm thinking that Apple is doing a lot more internal seeding of Leopard builds and a lot less external seeding, presumably to implement some of these "top-secret" features that Apple has yet to unveil. Why Apple is doing this, I don't know, but my best guess is that it's related to Time Machine, the iPhone, or some as-yet unannounced iDevice.

KingofAwesome
Feb 20, 2007, 11:42 AM
Unless Apple has significantly changed their seed schedule, I doubt very much that Leopard will be released in March. The latest beta was very unstable and certainly not ready for prime time. That and the fact that the releases have been very few and far between would lead me to believe late April at the earliest.

I'm hoping that they haven't been releasing the actual builds of Leopard with the new features (which would replace the features that are making the OS unstable so far). In my perfect fantasy world, they're doing internal testing with that stuff and they will be debuted the day they announce the launch date (or the day it launches).

Apple, I'm keeping my phone close by. Call me.

proteus
Feb 20, 2007, 11:48 AM
Couldn't agree with you more, as I said in an earlier post in this thread. I'm thinking that Apple is doing a lot more internal seeding of Leopard builds and a lot less external seeding, presumably to implement some of these "top-secret" features that Apple has yet to unveil. Why Apple is doing this, I don't know, but my best guess is that it's related to Time Machine, the iPhone, or some as-yet unannounced iDevice.

They've been very tight lipped. There have been no new features, other than a couple of non-functional "new" ones like the HFS files system replacement that somehow slipped into recent builds. The last build was, what, nearly a month ago?

pito189
Feb 20, 2007, 11:55 AM
I second that... I like Tiger but it feels faster (and snappier) on my PPC... Plus, I'm having some minor glitchs on my Intel that I didn't had on my PPC (computer doesn't always go into sleep mode by itself. When it does, it takes time for the computer to wake up, etc.)

Yes, I will definately agree with my MBP taking forever to come back from sleep.

Also beachballing on programs like Fugu and other small things like iChat. Quit annoying especially considering I have 2gb of ram.

andiwm2003
Feb 20, 2007, 11:59 AM
Unless Apple has significantly changed their seed schedule, I doubt very much that Leopard will be released in March. The latest beta was very unstable and certainly not ready for prime time. That and the fact that the releases have been very few and far between would lead me to believe late April at the earliest.

well i hope they announce leopard end of march for release in april. at the same time they should announce updated MBP wich would then include free Leopard upgrades.
that would fit my plans because it would drive prices for refurbished MB/MBP's down.

i don't expect ilife to be included for free though.
but a cheap bundle of Leopard, iWork and iLife would be great.

Shagrat
Feb 20, 2007, 12:08 PM
anybody know why I'd need this (just found it in Software Updater)

The WWAN Support Update v1.0 provides SW support for the following WWAN products:

Available on the Cingular network:
Novatel Merlin XU870 ExpressCard (HSDPA)
Available on the Sprint network:
Novatel Wireless Merlin EX720 Express Card (EVDO Rev. A)
Novatel Wireless Ovation U720 USB Modem (USB Adapter, EVDO Rev. A)
Available on the Verizon network:
Novatel XV620 ExpressCard (EVDO Rev. 0)
Novatel V740 ExpressCard (EVDO Rev. A)
Novatel Wireless Ovation U720 (USB Adapter, EVDO Rev. A)

wrldwzrd89
Feb 20, 2007, 12:10 PM
anybody know why I'd need this (just found it in Software Updater)

The WWAN Support Update v1.0 provides SW support for the following WWAN products:

Available on the Cingular network:
Novatel Merlin XU870 ExpressCard (HSDPA)
Available on the Sprint network:
Novatel Wireless Merlin EX720 Express Card (EVDO Rev. A)
Novatel Wireless Ovation U720 USB Modem (USB Adapter, EVDO Rev. A)
Available on the Verizon network:
Novatel XV620 ExpressCard (EVDO Rev. 0)
Novatel V740 ExpressCard (EVDO Rev. A)
Novatel Wireless Ovation U720 (USB Adapter, EVDO Rev. A)
That question belongs in this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=281263), not here.

zblaxberg
Feb 20, 2007, 12:11 PM
We'll I've been lurking this forum for a while now reading up on the rumors and such and I don't think it has helped much. I guess itís the very nature of rumors, but I've been getting very disappointed with the lack of reliable information about the release of 10.5. I don't believe this is this site's fault, I think it is a side-effect of the very little information about 10.5 Apple has released since the original presentation in August of last year.

I use Windows at home and Linux at work and I've been anxiously waiting (and saving) for 10.5 to come out and "do the switch" ever since the announcement in August.

I've been tempted to buy my MacBook (high-end white) already many times without waiting for 10.5 to come out, but I eventually decide to wait. I want my new Mac to come factory-installed with 10.5 along with 10.5 restore disks, and iLife '07, etc.

Problem is, I heard the MacBooks will take about a month after Leopard's release to begin shipping with the new OS :( And as much I would love to have my new Mac soon, I believe Apple will take until the end of spring to release Leopard. If that's June, that means that the earliest I can do the switch would be mid to end of July of 2007. Oh well, I guess I should stop reading so many rumors and focus on other things until July comes around...


I'm with you on this one because I have a gift card for a macbook pro...enough for the 2.33 ghz with a 160gb hdd and the apple care plan but i've been holding out for leopard. is it really worth it to wait? does anyone think the mbp's will be updated before june or july?

flyinmac
Feb 20, 2007, 12:14 PM
Bah, leopard. I'm holding out for 10.6 Lion.

Nope, it will be:

Mac OS X 10.6 "Putty Tatt"


And, Vista says "I did I did I did see a putty tatt, help, help, help!"

aranhamo
Feb 20, 2007, 12:17 PM
They were probably internal CODE NAMES after-the-fact. I highly doubt they had the foresight to see that coming or we would've heard about the others earlier when OS X was first released as beta (which I was a part of -- and hated.) They would've made sure we got the CAT references from the git-go. Now that they're "internal code names", I have to call BS.

We did hear about the code names back then. I remember the jokes about it being code-named Cheetah, when it was soooo sluggish. I think they just started using the cat code-names publicly because they were already so popular with users.

puckhead193
Feb 20, 2007, 12:18 PM
would apple include ilife updates as part of leopard you think :confused:

wrldwzrd89
Feb 20, 2007, 12:21 PM
would apple include ilife updates as part of leopard you think :confused:
I doubt it. I think Apple's just trying to finish up some Leopard-specific iLife and iWork features before releasing their next versions.

Data
Feb 20, 2007, 12:22 PM
iLife + iWork 07 will be part of Leopard!!
Remember my words!!


I think those were SJ words actually at the wwdc last year ;-), At least the ilife part of it.

flyinmac
Feb 20, 2007, 12:27 PM
with all this talk of "secret features" that have yet to be revealed, does anybody think this will only be a lot of empty promises?

Yep

flyinmac
Feb 20, 2007, 12:34 PM
yes

If they announce Leopard and it turns out they haven't made changes to the Finder.

I'm buying Vista. :D


Well, there will be the multi-tab feature that they showed. Like tabs in Safari.

But, I'm hoping that they actually redo things significantly. The Finder is always so drab looking. It needs some color, some style, etc. It's just too simple. It's actually quite boring to look at.

Sure, it's clean. But, I do prefer a little splash of color in the Finder. That is one area that I really like in Windows.

Yupper3D
Feb 20, 2007, 01:13 PM
I'm with you on this one because I have a gift card for a macbook pro...enough for the 2.33 ghz with a 160gb hdd and the apple care plan but i've been holding out for leopard. is it really worth it to wait? does anyone think the mbp's will be updated before june or july?

I do remember that when Leopard was announced last year, the higher end of the line white MacBooks had smaller hard-drives and code duo processors (as opposed to core 2 duo CPUs). I'm hoping that by June/July, the MacBooks will have updated specs, maybe a bump in CPU speed (~ 0.3 Ghz), and a bump in hard-drive space (~20 to 40 GB).

It just sucks to think that it meyb be June or July before I can switch. Arrgghhh...

dmelgar
Feb 20, 2007, 01:16 PM
There are several people that OS X feels sluggish to since the switch to Intel.
Frequent beachballing on high RAM machines among other things.

I don't remember having those problems on my G4 1.33GHz with Tiger.

Either the Intel version of OS X is programmed really badly or it is something with the Intel procs. I am hoping for OS X but we will see I guess.
Haven't had a PPC system, but my Macbook seems very fast. I have 2GB of RAM. Rarely beachball. Depends on what you're running. Rosetta applications aren't that fast, thinks like MS Word, Quicken.

I've had a substantial laundry list of bugs with Tiger. Sleeping and waking up is reasonably fast... when it works. Its apparently a very risky thing to plug in or remove devices while its sleeping.

justflie
Feb 20, 2007, 01:19 PM
I do remember that when Leopard was announced last year, the higher end of the line white MacBooks had smaller hard-drives and code duo processors (as opposed to core 2 duo CPUs). I'm hoping that by June/July, the MacBooks will have updated specs, maybe a bump in CPU speed (~ 0.3 Ghz), and a bump in hard-drive space (~20 to 40 GB).

It just sucks to think that it meyb be June or July before I can switch. Arrgghhh...

Hold out a little longer, it'll be worth it! :D

phillipjfry
Feb 20, 2007, 01:24 PM
OS X 11 Voltron........ too funny!

Are there any legitimate Apple Events other than WWDC happening soon? I can't see Apple releasing Leopard without a special event to show off some of these "top secret" features.

Wouldn't it be funny if one of the top secret features was an updated Exposé that looked just like Vista's version of Exposé? I would die if something snuck past Apple like that.

I'm laughing at the thought of that board meeting:

"OMG the Flip3D bombed completely in Vista, PUT EXPOSE BACK IN!!"
:)
I'm not getting my first iMac until March 5th anyways. Something just HAS to be announced by then. But I know that the day I receive my computer, Apple will announce the release of updated 24'' iMac processors (3ghz), ilife, and leopard. So maybe I should just order the computer so that it will happen.

Also, these "top secret features" wouldn't be very "top secret" anymore if anyone outside of Apple Super-Extra-Happy-Secretive-Developers-Lair got ahold of a full-featured Leopard build.

The Mac OS X kernel hasn't been updated and fully optimized for Intel procs; if it were, it'd be blazingly fast, I'm sure, but my guess is that there are problems with supporting two different kernels (one PPC optimized, the other optimized for Intel).

It's not that hard really. The bootloader just loads the correct kernel into memory. After that, the slowdown becomes through the programs themselves since they have to support Intel and PPC instructions.

andiwm2003
Feb 20, 2007, 01:25 PM
..........................................
I've had a substantial laundry list of bugs with Tiger. Sleeping and waking up is reasonably fast... when it works. Its apparently a very risky thing to plug in or remove devices while its sleeping.

that's my biggest complain about powerbooks, macbooks. they seem to sometimes get stuck in nirvana when you put them to sleep (or wake them up) and at the same time unplug a device or press a button or close the lid. that can be very embarrassing when you set up a beamer for a presentation.

freeny
Feb 20, 2007, 01:26 PM
I also read that the PowerBook G5s are coming out around the same time.

that "joke" lost all its humor and became a cliche more than a year ago.

please stop.

psychofreak
Feb 20, 2007, 01:28 PM
Well, there will be the multi-tab feature that they showed. Like tabs in Safari.

They never showed that or said anything about it, although it would be nice

theBB
Feb 20, 2007, 01:33 PM
Yes, I will definately agree with my MBP taking forever to come back from sleep.

Also beachballing on programs like Fugu and other small things like iChat. Quit annoying especially considering I have 2gb of ram.
I've got an intel Mac, only half gig of RAM, I've never gotten a beachball from Fugu. Mac wakes up almost instantly as well, but I am comparing it to Windows. I'd say your issue is not with 10.4 or intel.

ingenious
Feb 20, 2007, 01:34 PM
Apple does indeed offer such a program, but the window is usually 15 days, not 3 weeks, and doesn't start until an official release date is announced.


When Panther was released, the backdated the window about eight days.

Diatribe
Feb 20, 2007, 01:46 PM
Haven't had a PPC system, but my Macbook seems very fast. I have 2GB of RAM. Rarely beachball. Depends on what you're running. Rosetta applications aren't that fast, thinks like MS Word, Quicken.

I've had a substantial laundry list of bugs with Tiger. Sleeping and waking up is reasonably fast... when it works. Its apparently a very risky thing to plug in or remove devices while its sleeping.

I am running no Rosetta apps at all and I still have the frequent beachball. Granted, I have a lot of media/data on my HD but my G4 handled that a lot better.
I just have the overall feeling that certain things don't work as well with the Intel chips as they did with the PPC chips.

hypnometal
Feb 20, 2007, 01:52 PM
I just hope that Leopard is noticeably faster on the Intel Macs. 10.4's Intel version feels like a hack :)

Well, My MacBook is faster than my PowerBook G4 was, and 10.4 was faster on that than 10.2. So hopefully 10.5 will be faster. :)

wrldwzrd89
Feb 20, 2007, 01:53 PM
I am running no Rosetta apps at all and I still have the frequent beachball. Granted, I have a lot of media/data on my HD but my G4 handled that a lot better.
I just have the overall feeling that certain things don't work as well with the Intel chips as they did with the PPC chips.
Hmm... interesting. My situation is the exact opposite. I get far fewer beachballs on my MacBook Pro with 2GB of RAM than I did on my iMac G5, with only 512 MB of RAM. I am also not running any Rosetta applications, and I have a fair amount of media/data on my hard drive.

brianus
Feb 20, 2007, 01:54 PM
I am running no Rosetta apps at all and I still have the frequent beachball. Granted, I have a lot of media/data on my HD but my G4 handled that a lot better.
I just have the overall feeling that certain things don't work as well with the Intel chips as they did with the PPC chips.

What systems (models, not just processors) are you comparing here? I've found that while my G4 mini is substantially faster than my half-the-megahertz Power Mac G4, I actually get *more* beachballs on the mini, thanks to the slower HDD, less capable graphics processor, 1GB ram compared to 1.5GB, and who knows what else. But they're the same architecture and OS X binary. Is your Intel supposed to be superior in every respect or are you comparing a mini to a PM, or a laptop to a desktop?

SPUY767
Feb 20, 2007, 01:55 PM
Mac OS XI (Domestic Shorthair)

You heard it here first.

Gymnut
Feb 20, 2007, 01:56 PM
Well, it's 9:55 am, here in Hawaii which would put me roughly three hours behind California time. Would it be safe to assume that absolutely nothing is to be announced today?

flyinmac
Feb 20, 2007, 02:00 PM
Well, it's 9:55 am, here in Hawaii which would put me roughly three hours behind California time. Would it be safe to assume that absolutely nothing is to be announced today?

You must have missed my post in the discussion about the event today:


You must have missed it. Apple just released the latest iPod. I didn't even see this one coming.

It's the iPod Retro

It has all the features of the regular iPod Video. But, it boasts a much larger case that's reminiscent of the old cassette playing Walkman radios. It has a belt clip to snap onto your belt, and comes in Retro Black, Red, and Lime.

Thanks to it's larger size, it features a 6.5-inch wide-screen. This enables the playback of unbelievable videos.

It's absolutely amazing.

And, as an added bonus, it has a huge capacity. Unprecedented in any MP3 player. Thanks to it's larger size, it can take a full-sized 3.5-inch desktop hard drive. That's right, it has a 750 GB storage capacity. The ultimate in MP3 players, this one will hold your entire library, your neighbors library, and even all your friends libraries. And, it would still have room for every video that Apple has released to date in the iTunes Store.

So, go grab yours now. Get it today. Tomorrow it will be out of style.

Diatribe
Feb 20, 2007, 02:01 PM
What systems (models, not just processors) are you comparing here? I've found that while my G4 mini is substantially faster than my half-the-megahertz Power Mac G4, I actually get *more* beachballs on the mini, thanks to the slower HDD, less capable graphics processor, 1GB ram compared to 1.5GB, and who knows what else. But they're the same architecture and OS X binary. Is your Intel supposed to be superior in every respect or are you comparing a mini to a PM, or a laptop to a desktop?

I am comparing a

12" 1.33GHz G4 with a 5400rpm 100GB HD and 784MB RAM

to a

15" 2.33GHz Core Duo with a 5400rpm 120GB HD and 1GB RAM

Telp
Feb 20, 2007, 02:03 PM
Hey im just as pscyed as the next person and more rumors stating the release date is good and all but didnt we just talk about all this like 2 weeks ago? :confused: :confused:

akac
Feb 20, 2007, 02:07 PM
There are several people that OS X feels sluggish to since the switch to Intel.
Frequent beachballing on high RAM machines among other things.

I don't remember having those problems on my G4 1.33GHz with Tiger.

Either the Intel version of OS X is programmed really badly or it is something with the Intel procs. I am hoping for OS X but we will see I guess.

Maybe those people had little RAM - like 512MB. I can say that my Intel machines are all much faster feeling in every way shape and form from my G5 machines.

akac
Feb 20, 2007, 02:09 PM
Just the sort of stuff that I've noticed. I doubt that's the OS. I put it down to EFI being crap when compared with open firmware.

That's not intel or EFI. Its the graphics drivers and some other things (its in RADAR and supposedly fixed in 10.3.9).

jcrowe
Feb 20, 2007, 02:32 PM
I agree. I am stunned at how NOT fast the Intel version is most of the time.

Could you quantify what you mean by this? The OS feels just fine to me but apps that are not universal binaries, and thus use Rosetta, can be slower...the apps that have been created as UBs feel quite nice to me. Apple's iLife06 apps fly on my MBP compared to my G5 iMac. OTOH, Poser 6 is slower on the MBP, but not as much slower as I'd expect. YMMV, but until your apps go UB, the OS upgrade will probably not help as much as you expect.

asphalt-proof
Feb 20, 2007, 02:52 PM
I have a really bad feeling that the "top secret" features mentioned by His Steveness are only going to relate to iPhone and Apple TV. Other than a GUI makeover and Time Machine I think its going to be more of the same.

Even the iPhone had leaks about its capabilities. How the Heck are they keeping such tight wraps on the secret features? I don't think they are. I don't they they exist. Myself, I am prepared to be 'meh' ed'

MartyMoe
Feb 20, 2007, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by Max Payne
Or 10.9 Tom

You're wrong...I think there has to be at least one called 'Top'


TC for short? "It's the best OS-- Top Cat!" (I forget the rest of the lyrics)


What about "Bob"? :D

Telp
Feb 20, 2007, 03:05 PM
I have a really bad feeling that the "top secret" features mentioned by His Steveness are only going to relate to iPhone and Apple TV. Other than a GUI makeover and Time Machine I think its going to be more of the same.

Even the iPhone had leaks about its capabilities. How the Heck are they keeping such tight wraps on the secret features? I don't think they are. I don't they they exist. Myself, I am prepared to be 'meh' ed'

Still dont carry, still psyced for leopard and nothing short of you saying leopard is not going to be apart of OSX but part of some microsoft **** is going to make me not psyced for it. And we all know thats not going to happen

aranhamo
Feb 20, 2007, 04:47 PM
that's my biggest complain about powerbooks, macbooks. they seem to sometimes get stuck in nirvana when you put them to sleep (or wake them up) and at the same time unplug a device or press a button or close the lid. that can be very embarrassing when you set up a beamer for a presentation.

My G3 iMac had problems waking from sleep running 10.3.9. So did my G5 iMac running 10.4.6. So does my Core Duo iMac running 10.4.8. So does my Thinkpad T40 running WinXP. So does my IBM desktop running Win2k. Everytime I get a new computer, I have this morbid curiosity to see if sleep works. Never does. It's always a crap-shoot. Will it wake up this time? I've come to believe that sleep is just not reliable on any computer running any operating system. So I don't use it. I either leave it on or shut it down.

After that, the slowdown becomes through the programs themselves since they have to support Intel and PPC instructions.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. When an application is loaded, the OS just loads the code section for the correct architecture, and it's all native from there (unless you're running a PPC app in Rosetta).

MadDoc
Feb 20, 2007, 04:57 PM
I'm just sick of reading all these rumours about Leopard. The bottom line is, no-one in Cupertino is throwing us a bone and we are all in the dark.

I have my reservations about what is coming. I expect we will see more stuff relating to the iPhone (which I really couldn't care less about) and its integration with OS X.

I want to see a new GUI. I'm bored of Aqua. Yes I know, it's just eye candy but I think Aqua is looking a little dated - just take a look at some of the offerings from Linux (i'm thinking of Enlightenment 17 in particular).

I want to be surprised by Apple (again). I want to be proven wrong. If all we end up getting in Leopard is Time Machine (I can back my data up VERY easily at the moment thank you), Spaces (I really don't need Linux's virtual desktops - Expose is just fine) and bloody notes in Mail then I am just going to cry.

*rant off*

MadDoc,

seashellz2
Feb 20, 2007, 05:00 PM
wheres 10.4.9 already?

Lynxpro
Feb 20, 2007, 05:04 PM
Bah, leopard. I'm holding out for 10.6 Lion.


Isn't it Liger or Tigon?

Damn...Apple ran out of prototype Atari game system names to adopt in their OS version naming convention.

netdog
Feb 20, 2007, 05:06 PM
Isn't it Liger or Tigon?

You crazy Lynx you. Don't fret. Your time will come.

psychofreak
Feb 20, 2007, 05:06 PM
wheres 10.4.9 already?

Behind the cupboard...

netdog
Feb 20, 2007, 05:07 PM
wheres 10.4.9 already?

Another seed went out today. Hopefully this will be the last one before it goes into general release on Software Update.

Why the hell do I get excited about updates? I used to curse XP for downloading so many patches. Macs are a sick addiction.

Cult Follower
Feb 20, 2007, 05:09 PM
The sooner the better. I thought I would be picking up iLife, iWork, and Leopard in January. I guess I had too wishful of thinking, but I really want Leopard.

Mr Skills
Feb 20, 2007, 05:14 PM
If all we end up getting in Leopard is Time Machine (I can back my data up VERY easily at the moment thank you),

Backing up is easy. What's so amazing about Time Machine is the way you restore.

Mr Skills
Feb 20, 2007, 05:16 PM
I am running no Rosetta apps at all and I still have the frequent beachball. Granted, I have a lot of media/data on my HD but my G4 handled that a lot better.
I just have the overall feeling that certain things don't work as well with the Intel chips as they did with the PPC chips.

Next time it's going slow, run Activity Monitor and check there is nothing at all using Rosetta. You might be surprised. When my friend's computer had this problem, it turned out that two dashboard widgets were using Rosetta.

Mr Skills
Feb 20, 2007, 05:17 PM
that "joke" lost all its humor and became a cliche more than a year ago.

please stop.

That's how some jokes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allo_allo) work! ;)

Mr Skills
Feb 20, 2007, 05:19 PM
Or 10.9 Tom :D

What about Hobbes? :D

And wouldn't they run out of numbers after 10.9? :eek: :p ;)
I bet someone takes that seriously...

Lynxpro
Feb 20, 2007, 05:22 PM
You crazy Lynx you. Don't fret. Your time will come.


My time already came....back in 1989... :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Lynx

The Sony PSP is its spiritual offspring...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_psp

I wish it a longer and more successful life...at least it continues the innovation tradition, unlike *cough* Nintendo *cough*, aka "formerly the other tech monopolist located in the State of Washington".

bwanac
Feb 20, 2007, 05:42 PM
I wish it a longer and more successful life...at least it continues the innovation tradition, unlike *cough* Nintendo *cough*, aka "formerly the other tech monopolist located in the State of Washington".


:rolleyes: lol

steve_hill4
Feb 20, 2007, 06:03 PM
Maybe those people had little RAM - like 512MB. I can say that my Intel machines are all much faster feeling in every way shape and form from my G5 machines.

I have to say I ran the first MBP, (my current machine), with 512MB for about a month before I found some bargain memory I was after to put it up to 1.5GB. After the upgrade, it felt faster. Apps opened quicker and I could have much more open at once, which is how I like to work.

However, I still get frequent beach balling. I never owned a PPC Mac, especially one running Tiger. All I have to go on for comparisons are display models at work, both PPC and Intel. Tiger on a 512MB iMac seemed fine for running Safari, word etc. Even iLife on this ran reasonably okay. Switch to Intel and I did notice things were generally faster, but more frequent problems like beach balling occurring.

I just hope Leopard addresses this. I'll almost certainly buy it on launch day, but I would like to see what it will offer me first and get an idea when it will be out.

shrimpdesign
Feb 20, 2007, 06:05 PM
The Finder is always so drab looking. It needs some color, some style, etc. It's just too simple. It's actually quite boring to look at.

Sure, it's clean. But, I do prefer a little splash of color in the Finder. That is one area that I really like in Windows.

I don't know about you, but I prefer interfaces that don't attract attention to themselves.

shigzeo
Feb 20, 2007, 06:27 PM
My time already came....back in 1989... :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Lynx

The Sony PSP is its spiritual offspring...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_psp

I wish it a longer and more successful life...at least it continues the innovation tradition, unlike *cough* Nintendo *cough*, aka "formerly the other tech monopolist located in the State of Washington".

hey mate, i had both lynx systems and have very fond memories of each though each was the size of a small laptop! i had all the great games and well, i am still in love, emulating them on my pc and as well, hopefully soon on my beloved ds!

i never had sore spot in my heart for the nintendo company.

shigzeo
Feb 20, 2007, 06:30 PM
I don't know about you, but I prefer interfaces that don't attract attention to themselves.

this too i agree on. it is two tone or multi-grey which is not too toyish. i think apple almost made the mistake of going too toyish with the first iterations of osx which had all the gum drop looking buttons etc.

vista or even xp, tries to work colour in an interface that looks better flat. the widgets etc are quite cute, but as soon as you look at the start menu and bar, all seems out of sync. finder may not have cut or ability to move files from the save dialogue (my favourite windows feature) but at least its design interface is held together by good engineering and never feels out of place though sometimes a little sparce. i love it.

lamina
Feb 20, 2007, 06:37 PM
I've said it once and I'll say it again.

Take your time Apple. We will still love you if we have to wait till early summer. Work out all the kinks and make it as awesome as we all expect it to be.

Telp
Feb 20, 2007, 07:16 PM
I've said it once and I'll say it again.

Take your time Apple. We will still love you if we have to wait till early summer. Work out all the kinks and make it as awesome as we all expect it to be.

I hear you on that one. Apple fans hold strong. :apple: :cool:

tortoise
Feb 20, 2007, 07:19 PM
Hopefully with Leopard going 64-bit, the Core 2 Duo and Xeon variants of the OS will take advantage of the doubling the number of general-purpose registers available so that tight loops don't need to swap in and out of RAM as often.

That alone could offer some significant bottleneck relief. Consider that IA32 and "x86_64-in-32-bit-mode" programs currently only have access to 8 GPRs compared to the PPC's 32. In 64-bit mode. x86_64 processors have 16 GPRs.


Moving from the IA32 to the AMD64 ISA ("x86-64" is sort of misleading since it is not a strict register size increase but a significantly different ISA) generally nets 15-30% performance boost in the typical case. The reason for the performance increase when switching between the ISAs is only partially due to the increased number of GPRs. For example, the floating point portion of the AMD64 ISA has essentially no relation to IA32 floating point; when it made sense in the design of AMD64, they started from scratch. AMD64 was designed to be efficient on modern processor designs, but with an eye toward easy backward compatibility.

It is worth mentioning that AMD64 ISA (and IA32 ISA for that matter) is considerably more register efficient than the PPC ISA, and so strict GPR comparisons are not entirely relevant. AMD64 probably has little use for more than the 16 GPRs it has. On modern silicon the relatively poor register efficiency of ISAs like PPC actually create a performance disadvantage, which is one of the reasons even out-dated ISAs like IA32 performed as well as they did against RISC. AMD64 essentially kept the best parts of the IA32 ISA design as far as performance is concerned (e.g. using IA32-style CISC ISA) but ditched the outdated/crappy parts of IA32 that were a detriment to performance (archaic register design, obsolete floating point model).

So yeah, switching to the 64-bit environment on Intel should help performance. Which is kind of nice since 32-bit Intel is not exactly slow.

thunderclap
Feb 20, 2007, 07:19 PM
It just sucks to think that it meyb be June or July before I can switch. Arrgghhh...

It better not be June or July! I get married in July and those two months will be savings crunch time where NO money can be spent! April is good though... that's my birthday! :D

On a separate note, is it recommended to format and install 10.5 fresh or will an upgrade be fine? I'd rather not deal with backing up everything to do a clean install. But what's recommended?

justflie
Feb 20, 2007, 07:20 PM
Backing up is easy. What's so amazing about Time Machine is the way you restore.

Agreed. I use backup software regularly, but, if I want to actually restore a single file from a month ago, I need to go back and restore my whole computer to a month ago. All I want is the 1 file, why do I need to mess with the whole computer? That, and the easy ability to find old/deleted files, is why Time Machine is going to be a great addition to the OS. oh yeah, and it looks perty.

Telp
Feb 20, 2007, 07:20 PM
It better not be June or July! I get married in July and those two months will be savings crunch time where NO money can be spent! April is good though... that's my birthday! :D

Congratulations :D

justflie
Feb 20, 2007, 07:20 PM
It better not be June or July! I get married in July and those two months will be savings crunch time where NO money can be spent! April is good though... that's my birthday! :D

Put a maxed out Mac Pro on your registry :p

thunderclap
Feb 20, 2007, 07:47 PM
Congratulations :D

Why thank you!

flyinmac
Feb 20, 2007, 08:07 PM
Backing up is easy. What's so amazing about Time Machine is the way you restore.

Time Machine is the first thing I plan on deactivating.

Think about it. I delete a file because it is no-longer needed. The whole reason I delete it is to free-up space. But, now when I delete it, Time Machine just stores it somewhere else.

So, now I'm not freeing-up space when I delete a file. I'm just moving it so it's not directly in my sight.

Doesn't really make much sense to me.

Of course, it will make it easier to recover accidentally deleted files. But, usually the files I delete are files I want gone now. Not just moved from their current location.

If I simply wanted them moved in-case I need them later, I could just drag them somewhere else and periodically weed through them later.

Seems like a waste of space to me.

flyinmac
Feb 20, 2007, 08:12 PM
Agreed. I use backup software regularly, but, if I want to actually restore a single file from a month ago, I need to go back and restore my whole computer to a month ago. All I want is the 1 file, why do I need to mess with the whole computer? That, and the easy ability to find old/deleted files, is why Time Machine is going to be a great addition to the OS. oh yeah, and it looks perty.

But, the weakness of Time Machine will be that it does absolutely nothing for you if your hard drive gets corrupted, or fails, or any number of other things.

You need to have a good full system backup on a separate drive or media to prevent such issues from causing you major losses.

digitalbiker
Feb 20, 2007, 08:24 PM
I am running no Rosetta apps at all and I still have the frequent beachball. Granted, I have a lot of media/data on my HD but my G4 handled that a lot better.
I just have the overall feeling that certain things don't work as well with the Intel chips as they did with the PPC chips.

I think you are just seeing how bad Finder has gotten. It runs poorly for both intel and PPC.

I have a 1.67 G4 PPC PB with 2GB of ram. Finder is a pig. If I try to access a directory via the dock or get a context menu on a folder with a medium number of files, Finder beachballs, or is extremely slow. Finder code is a hack, bloated, and poorly optimized. It needs a re-write and an updated look.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that 10.5 will bring a new finder.

orangermac
Feb 20, 2007, 08:27 PM
I think that the way Apple wants to play the hype of a new operating system may be different this time, given Vista's recent introduction. When Vista came out it had many of its original features missing. So they may try to have a few extras in the mix beyond what people are expecting...enough to make people want to go out and get it right away. If you see video previews 6 months in advance, features have lost their shine by the time its released...

I agree though, if Finder isn't updated it's going to be a real shame. I'm tired of Finder hanging when I come home from work and forgot to disconnect a server share before leaving (takes ~1 minute to bring up the disconnect prompt).

PathFinder does seem really nice, and could be a good Finder replacement; does it solve the awful network problems?

Right now QuickSilver helps me stay out of the Finder most of the time. Fantastic program!

digitalbiker
Feb 20, 2007, 08:31 PM
Time Machine is the first thing I plan on deactivating.

Think about it. I delete a file because it is no-longer needed. The whole reason I delete it is to free-up space. But, now when I delete it, Time Machine just stores it somewhere else.

So, now I'm not freeing-up space when I delete a file. I'm just moving it so it's not directly in my sight.

Doesn't really make much sense to me.

Of course, it will make it easier to recover accidentally deleted files. But, usually the files I delete are files I want gone now. Not just moved from their current location.

If I simply wanted them moved in-case I need them later, I could just drag them somewhere else and periodically weed through them later.

Seems like a waste of space to me.

Time machine isn't really intended to backup to the same disk. Theoretically you would have this machine hooked to a FW external drive or another network drive and the file would be tagged by the operating system to move the file to the external drive at a pre-configured time.

If you look at the write-up on Apple's website it specifies that the default back-up time is at midnight and an external drive is recommended.

Your drive space will be freed up when the backup occurs but at the same time you will have the piece of mind that your file is completely recoverable if need be at a future date.

flyinmac
Feb 20, 2007, 08:43 PM
Time machine isn't really intended to backup to the same disk. Theoretically you would have this machine hooked to a FW external drive or another network drive and the file would be tagged by the operating system to move the file to the external drive at a pre-configured time.

If you look at the write-up on Apple's website it specifies that the default back-up time is at midnight and an external drive is recommended.

Your drive space will be freed up when the backup occurs but at the same time you will have the piece of mind that your file is completely recoverable if need be at a future date.

Yes, I agree that it makes more sense in that particular configuration. But, consider that your average user (the home user that would benefit from this most) is not likely to have external hard drive's plugged into their iMac. The more stuff we pile on our desks, the less Apple's iMac lives-up to the marketing Apple gives it.

I think if someone buys the iMac for the pure elegance (as Apple markets it), then the idea of additional cables and drives is less appealing.

For someone like myself, it just means devoting a drive to hold files that I've already decided I don't want. But, I guess we all have our preferences.

Peace
Feb 20, 2007, 08:46 PM
Yes, I agree that it makes more sense in that particular configuration. But, consider that your average user (the home user that would benefit from this most) is not likely to have external hard drive's plugged into their iMac. The more stuff we pile on our desks, the less Apple's iMac lives-up to the marketing Apple gives it.

I think if someone buys the iMac for the pure elegance (as Apple markets it), then the idea of additional cables and drives is less appealing.

For someone like myself, it just means devoting a drive to hold files that I've already decided I don't want. But, I guess we all have our preferences.

Enter the Airport Extreme with attached USB Hard Drive ;)

Besides you can delete a file and Time Machine wont keep it unless you use TM to backup your whole disk image.

Diatribe
Feb 20, 2007, 08:49 PM
I think you are just seeing how bad Finder has gotten. It runs poorly for both intel and PPC.

I have a 1.67 G4 PPC PB with 2GB of ram. Finder is a pig. If I try to access a directory via the dock or get a context menu on a folder with a medium number of files, Finder beachballs, or is extremely slow. Finder code is a hack, bloated, and poorly optimized. It needs a re-write and an updated look.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that 10.5 will bring a new finder.

I hope you're right. But whatever is causing all of this I hope it is gone when 10.5 comes out.

syklee26
Feb 20, 2007, 08:54 PM
what i wanna know is whether you can backup your entire HD using time machine and put those files back on a new notebook/desktop. that would be absolutely cool.....one thing I hate going through when I get new laptops is getting all files back into the new system.

Telp
Feb 20, 2007, 08:57 PM
Time Machine is the first thing I plan on deactivating.

Think about it. I delete a file because it is no-longer needed. The whole reason I delete it is to free-up space. But, now when I delete it, Time Machine just stores it somewhere else.

So, now I'm not freeing-up space when I delete a file. I'm just moving it so it's not directly in my sight.

Doesn't really make much sense to me.

Of course, it will make it easier to recover accidentally deleted files. But, usually the files I delete are files I want gone now. Not just moved from their current location.

If I simply wanted them moved in-case I need them later, I could just drag them somewhere else and periodically weed through them later.

Seems like a waste of space to me.

Speak for yourself, there are tons of times where i atleast, and im sure many others accidendtly delete some very important documents. Also, im sure you dont have to backthe stuff up if you dont want to.

daveL
Feb 20, 2007, 08:58 PM
I've been noticing some unexpected slowness on my MBP C2D. I've been looking around for a cause. It seems much more apparent when I first bring the system up. Well, I just found the problem: Palm Desktop and all of its components are PPC only, and it starts a background process when you log in! So, you have this background process that starts up Rosetta when you log in and continues to run! What a piece of CRAP!

digitalbiker
Feb 20, 2007, 09:00 PM
Enter the Airport Extreme with attached USB Hard Drive ;)

Besides you can delete a file and Time Machine wont keep it unless you use TM to backup your whole disk image.

Yes, I agree this would be the most elegant solution. USB drives have come down so much in price that it is cheaper to just keep filling up drives and then replacing them when they are full.

Telp
Feb 20, 2007, 09:01 PM
I've been noticing some unexpected slowness on my MBP C2D. I've been looking around for a cause. It seems much more apparent when I first bring the system up. Well, I just found the problem: Palm Desktop and all of its components are PPC only, and it starts a background process when you log in! So, you have this background process that starts up Rosetta when you log in and continues to run! What a piece of CRAP!

you shoulda checked up on compatibility before you bought some piece of crap palm

digitalbiker
Feb 20, 2007, 09:01 PM
I hope you're right. But whatever is causing all of this I hope it is gone when 10.5 comes out.

I am keeping my fingers crossed. This is the "secret feature" that I hope actually materializes.

Telp
Feb 20, 2007, 09:04 PM
I am keeping my fingers crossed. This is the "secret feature" that I hope actually materializes.

The biggest thing is to actually see if there were any hidden features before we start getting our hopes up =/

digitalbiker
Feb 20, 2007, 09:06 PM
what i wanna know is whether you can backup your entire HD using time machine and put those files back on a new notebook/desktop. that would be absolutely cool.....one thing I hate going through when I get new laptops is getting all files back into the new system.

The way I understand the function of Time Machine, it will restore your system back from a virgin OS state. In otherwords, it makes a full copy once and then makes incremental backups of files that change.

Therefore if your machine crashes or you buy a new machine, all you have to do is start at a clean install state of OS X, perform the full recover from Time Machine and you are back to where you were.

flyinmac
Feb 20, 2007, 09:09 PM
Enter the Airport Extreme with attached USB Hard Drive ;)

Besides you can delete a file and Time Machine wont keep it unless you use TM to backup your whole disk image.

Sure, that way I can share my deleted files with the neighborhood over WiFi :rolleyes:

I use a wired network that sits behind a firewall and then run a firewall on each machine. I'm not crazy about WiFi. And, I'm pretty sure others in my area aren't either (at least not anymore). The local news has been driving around and reporting on how many WiFi networks they are able to log-on to in various areas. 13 in a small subdivision near me. 30 in another small neighborhood. And, of course many others around town. And, these are in areas where the average lot is 2+ acres and apartments are uncommon.

If you got into apartment areas, you could be talking about thousands of WiFi networks to log-on to.

WiFi is just too weak to put confidential files on. The thing about encryption, is that it's only good if the person trying to get in doesn't try very hard. The tools are easy and free to come by. I have them, and I didn't even look for them. Came on a bonus CD with a computer book.

If someone wanted to get on your network, all they need is Google, and to be somewhere near you.

But, I guess WiFi weaknesses are a topic for another discussion.

But, yes, I agree. Apple would likely steer you towards a WiFi enabled network drive. Just hope you don't delete anything that has confidential information.

I can see it now. You delete your files, and your neighbor downloads them. Of course, that would mean free storage right ;) So, when I accidentally delete the wrong file, I can just go door to door until I find the neighbor that has it :D

syklee26
Feb 20, 2007, 09:11 PM
The way I understand the function of Time Machine, it will restore your system back from a virgin OS state. In otherwords, it makes a full copy once and then makes incremental backups of files that change.

Therefore if your machine crashes or you buy a new machine, all you have to do is start at a clean install state of OS X, perform the full recover from Time Machine and you are back to where you were.



i hope u r right on this so i can get myself a new MBP (maybe the one with LED lighting and stuff).

Telp
Feb 20, 2007, 09:15 PM
i hope u r right on this so i can get myself a new MBP (maybe the one with LED lighting and stuff).

youll still have to wait for leopard...

digitalbiker
Feb 20, 2007, 09:16 PM
i hope u r right on this so i can get myself a new MBP (maybe the one with LED lighting and stuff).

Haven't you ever tried Apple's standard migration assistant. If you get a new laptop and haven't installed anything new on it, you can always stick in the OS X installation DVD and just run the migration assistant. It will help you get any apps that you want to migrate, as well as audio and video files. It really is pretty painless.

I usually use this approach for new laptops. I just connect the old laptop using target disk mode over FireWire and then run migration assistant.

MrCrowbar
Feb 20, 2007, 09:40 PM
what i wanna know is whether you can backup your entire HD using time machine and put those files back on a new notebook/desktop. that would be absolutely cool.....one thing I hate going through when I get new laptops is getting all files back into the new system.

"It's backwards compatible all the way to OSX 10.0" if I remember right. It uses the same HFS+ file system you're using right now, just makes an incremental disc image every time it backs up your stuff.

What you need is a complete image of your Hard Drive. Just boot from the Mac OSX DVD number 1, run disk utility from the menu bar. click "new image", use Macintosh HD as source, your external drive as destination, "read only" and no encryption. This will copy your whole partition into a DMG file. Then, connect your backup drive to your new laptop and use disk utiliy from the OSX DVD and use "restore", Backup drive as source, Macintosh HD as destination. Wait, done.

The other way is using "Carbon Copy Cloner". There's a new version since yesterday and it lets you do the same thing while your system is running. It slows down your system a lot though because it's run with root privileges (that makes it "more important" than your admin or user rights) and hogs your hard drive. The scheduling deamons are PPC so you'll notice your RAM dissolving on intel macs. I just let it run sometimes before I go out for a couple of hours. My USB drive has a loud fan in it and it just gets too damn hot when I unplug the fan (there are two 7200rpm drives in there) so I can't sleep when the fan is on. Actually I like the sound of clicking hard drives when I am sleeping alone... it's almost like a living thing that makes its little random sounds. Yea... I'm weird... :o

SiliconAddict
Feb 20, 2007, 11:52 PM
As I've said before. Color me unimpressed. I expect more for $120-ish. So, again, unless there is some massive, hulking, new top secret feature that simply blows all our socks off, a likelihood that is becoming less and less likely with each dev release, I'm probably going to skip 10.5 and wait for 10.6. Al least then you have the combined total feature set of both releases for $120-ish.

PS- And before someone tells me "Well with a student discount it only costs...blah." I'm not a student.

PPS- If they revamped the Finder not only would I buy Leopard the day it came out I would drive my car into the mall and crash it into the Apple store to be first in line. Sure I would go to jail but new finder!

Peace
Feb 20, 2007, 11:59 PM
As I've said before. Color me unimpressed. I expect more for $120-ish. So, again, unless there is some massive, hulking, new top secret feature that simply blows all our socks off, a likelihood that is becoming less and less likely with each dev release, I'm probably going to skip 10.5 and wait for 10.6. Al least then you have the combined total feature set of both releases for $120-ish.

PS- And before someone tells me "Well with a student discount it only costs...blah." I'm not a student.

PPS- If they revamped the Finder not only would I buy Leopard the day it came out I would drive my car into the mall and crash it into the Apple store to be first in line. Sure I would go to jail but new finder!

I'd up your auto insurance if I were you . ;)

phillipjfry
Feb 21, 2007, 12:04 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by that. When an application is loaded, the OS just loads the code section for the correct architecture, and it's all native from there (unless you're running a PPC app in Rosetta).

I figured when you compile a program, you would have to configure arch with both ppc and intel, bloating the software more than it should (eg. if it were just optimized for just 64bit intel). But I could be wrong, I'm pulling info from using linux :)

MrCrowbar
Feb 21, 2007, 12:37 AM
I figured when you compile a program, you would have to configure arch with both ppc and intel, bloating the software more than it should (eg. if it were just optimized for just 64bit intel). But I could be wrong, I'm pulling info from using linux :)

The applications indeed get bigger with PPC and x86, both in 32bit and 64bit versions. But OSX is smart enough only to load what fits best for your system. The Universal Binary is still very useful when you use your backed up applications on an older PPC Mac, it all just works. The only bad thing is, that applications use more space on your hard drive, there are tools to remove the PPC or Intel versions tho, but in my opinion, I wouldn't do that just to save one or 2 GB on my hard drive. Binaries are small, libraries are big, but those are cross-architecture anyway.

goosnarrggh
Feb 21, 2007, 07:01 AM
The applications indeed get bigger with PPC and x86, both in 32bit and 64bit versions. But OSX is smart enough only to load what fits best for your system. The Universal Binary is still very useful when you use your backed up applications on an older PPC Mac, it all just works. The only bad thing is, that applications use more space on your hard drive, there are tools to remove the PPC or Intel versions tho, but in my opinion, I wouldn't do that just to save one or 2 GB on my hard drive. Binaries are small, libraries are big, but those are cross-architecture anyway.

Most applications probably won't even bother differentiating between 64-bit and 32-bit.

64-bit MacOS (both PPC and x86) should very happily run 32-bit userland processes natively. And for most applications I wouldn't expect that there'd be any noticeable performance hit in doing so.

Unless you've got a lot of number crunching to do, there just isn't a compelling reason to spring for the increased development time and storage-size overhead of pushing out a 4-arch binary.

Yupper3D
Feb 21, 2007, 08:51 AM
It better not be June or July! I get married in July and those two months will be savings crunch time where NO money can be spent! April is good though... that's my birthday! :D

On a separate note, is it recommended to format and install 10.5 fresh or will an upgrade be fine? I'd rather not deal with backing up everything to do a clean install. But what's recommended?

I'd say installing fresh is better than upgrading. When you upgrade, you are depending on a separate process to get you to a new version of the OS.

This process involves a series of scripted steps that are aimed at upgrading every individual piece of the OS to the target version (kernel, packages, libraries, etc). Most of the time, the upgrade scripts are able to account for any changes you may have done to your system prior to the upgrade, but speaking from past Linux upgrade experiences, there seems to be always some sort of package that could not be upgraded for lack of dependencies, and things of that sort. Besides, your upgraded OS seems to be fatter because not everything gets deleted from your prior OS version in case you want to go reverse the upgrade, etc. Even if you are given the option to remove these files, there are always going to be traces of the old OS in your installation (stray files, empty directories, etc).

Just my 2 cents :p

PS: Congrats on your wedding!

jhedges3
Feb 21, 2007, 09:38 AM
I want to see a new GUI. I'm bored of Aqua. Yes I know, it's just eye candy but I think Aqua is looking a little dated - just take a look at some of the offerings from Linux (i'm thinking of Enlightenment 17 in particular).

Me too. It would be nice to have something new, but Iím doubtful that itís going to happen.

I want to be surprised by Apple (again). I want to be proven wrong. If all we end up getting in Leopard is Time Machine (I can back my data up VERY easily at the moment thank you), Spaces (I really don't need Linux's virtual desktops - Expose is just fine) and bloody notes in Mail then I am just going to cry.

Yes. I donít care, much, about Time Machine, Spaces, and Notes. They seem like such minor improvements, like there are plenty of ways to do what they do already.

But I donít care that much and I wonít cry regardless of what happens. If it sucks it sucks. Iíll still want to have it. Iíll just be less impressed.

I'm just sick of reading all these rumours about Leopard. The bottom line is, no-one in Cupertino is throwing us a bone and we are all in the dark.

What is the precedent on this? Have people outside of Cupertino known, well in advance, what the main improvements to Tiger and Panther, for example, were going to be? My impression was that they didnít. Well, it seems like they would want to keep something secret. Iím just wondering how much theyíve withheld in the past.

Mgkwho
Feb 21, 2007, 10:00 AM
It has already been three months since Apple last refreshed their computer line. And I'm just talking about the computers- desktops, laptops only.

The most recent release was 8 November 2006. If there isn't a new product release/refresh on the 27th of February, then the earliest would be the 6th of March, four entire months without a computer refresh. And the 27th to me is doubtful, because of :apple:tv shipping.

I really hope there is a refresh of some sort before Leopard is even announced. Mac mini refresh, anyone? Or even iMac...


So would four months be the longest Apple has gone without a computer refresh? (They have released airport extreme, new shuffles in these 3.4 months, but I am only talking about computers). How long have they gone if not four months? Gosh, four months sounds like an eternity, doesn't it?

March = Leopard and other software updates. April will bring MacPros and Displays, me hopes. May probably new iPods? June the iPhone...

-=|Mgkwho

jhedges3
Feb 21, 2007, 10:01 AM
PPS- If they revamped the Finder not only would I buy Leopard the day it came out I would drive my car into the mall and crash it into the Apple store to be first in line. Sure I would go to jail but new finder!

This is the Mall of America youíre referring to? Iím guessing it would be pretty rough for you to get through all that concrete and steel on the south end, or any end, but at least itís ground floor, which helps.

You might consider something more elaborate. Like fast roping onto the top of the Park. Cutting a small hole and parachuting down.

But then again you could also just get in a much more inconspicuous way. Like through an unlocked door. Maybe with a friend's MOA badge. Also, you could just show up early. Are there really that many people in Minnesota willing to line up for Leopard?

But if you were in jail it wouldnít matter what version of Finder was out there in the world. Does anyone know whether people in jail actually have access to Finder? Are there jails that are running OS X?

jhedges3
Feb 21, 2007, 10:04 AM
It has already been three months since Apple last refreshed their computer line. And I'm just talking about the computers- desktops, laptops only.

The most recent release was 8 November 2006. If there isn't a new product release/refresh on the 27th of February, then the earliest would be the 6th of March, four entire months without a computer refresh. And the 27th to me is doubtful, because of :apple:tv shipping.

I really hope there is a refresh of some sort before Leopard is even announced. Mac mini refresh, anyone? Or even iMac...


So would four months be the longest Apple has gone without a computer refresh? (They have released airport extreme, new shuffles in these 3.4 months, but I am only talking about computers). How long have they gone if not four months? Gosh, four months sounds like an eternity, doesn't it?

March = Leopard and other software updates. April will bring MacPros and Displays, me hopes. May probably new iPods? June the iPhone...

-=|Mgkwho

Who cares about their computer line?

aranhamo
Feb 21, 2007, 10:55 AM
The applications indeed get bigger with PPC and x86, both in 32bit and 64bit versions. But OSX is smart enough only to load what fits best for your system. The Universal Binary is still very useful when you use your backed up applications on an older PPC Mac, it all just works. The only bad thing is, that applications use more space on your hard drive, there are tools to remove the PPC or Intel versions tho, but in my opinion, I wouldn't do that just to save one or 2 GB on my hard drive. Binaries are small, libraries are big, but those are cross-architecture anyway.

Exactly, so there should be no performance hit at all, other than the miniscule amount of time it takes to decide which code section to load.

Most applications probably won't even bother differentiating between 64-bit and 32-bit.

64-bit MacOS (both PPC and x86) should very happily run 32-bit userland processes natively. And for most applications I wouldn't expect that there'd be any noticeable performance hit in doing so.

Unless you've got a lot of number crunching to do, there just isn't a compelling reason to spring for the increased development time and storage-size overhead of pushing out a 4-arch binary.

It won't be long before a developer can reasonably not include 32-bit code. My iMac has a 32-bit processor, but I think by the end of this year all Macs will be shipping with 64-bit processors (I think the MacBooks and minis are still using Core Duos, which are 32-bit, right?). So especially for those applications that need 64-bit numbers and such (scientific and such), you could ship only 64-bit PPC and x86, and forget about the 32-bit versions, assuming that your customers would have recent 64-bit machines. But for the general software market, we'll have to support 32-bit systems for a while yet, but that market doesn't really have much use for 64-bit apps.

Apple will have to keep supporting 32-bit systems in the OS for a long time, I'm guessing until around 2012 (that gives at least 5 years support for the 32-bit Macs they are selling right now).

I hope Apple continues to encourage PPC binaries though. Maybe someday there will be a compelling reason for Apple to switch back to PPC, or sell both PPC and x86 systems. If all apps are released with support for both, then switching back and forth whenever needed would be almost painless.

odaiwai
Feb 21, 2007, 11:23 AM
It won't be long before a developer can reasonably not include 32-bit code. My iMac has a 32-bit processor, but I think by the end of this year all Macs will be shipping with 64-bit processors (I think the MacBooks and minis are still using Core Duos, which are 32-bit, right?).

Not quite right. The only 32-bit machines in the current Apple line-up are the Core Duo in the Mini and the Pentium-M in the AppleTV. (iPhone is probably 32-bit too, but it's not shipping yet, and doesn't really count for this sort of thing.)

The mini will probably get bumped to Core2/Santa Rosa when Leopard comes out, just so Steve can brag about a 64-bit OS, and 64-bit computers all across the product line.

MacPanda
Feb 21, 2007, 11:25 AM
LOL, you know what...I was thinking exactly the same thing. I spent £2100 (that's over 4000USD to my American friends) in January. I convinced myself that would all I would spend on toys this year, but there are so many other toys I'm hearing about it's gonna hurt!

wow that is my salary

Lonon
Feb 21, 2007, 11:50 AM
Yes, I agree that it makes more sense in that particular configuration. But, consider that your average user (the home user that would benefit from this most) is not likely to have external hard drive's plugged into their iMac. The more stuff we pile on our desks, the less Apple's iMac lives-up to the marketing Apple gives it.

I think if someone buys the iMac for the pure elegance (as Apple markets it), then the idea of additional cables and drives is less appealing.

For someone like myself, it just means devoting a drive to hold files that I've already decided I don't want. But, I guess we all have our preferences.

Are you making movies? Are you rendering 3d modeling? How many extra drives could you need? I think ONE external drive would solve your "problems" and the elegance of the iMac would be the same. And if you need more power you would not buy the iMac in the first place, instead the Mac Pro would be the choice. It's just one external disk. I don't see much trouble...

Maccus Aurelius
Feb 21, 2007, 12:25 PM
Even with an external hard drive, there would be little cable clutter. All you'd have is the FW cable and the power cable for the drive itself (provided it's a 3.5" drive). For anyone who would require the extra space 1 or 2 extra cables is hardly a big deal and still keeps your desk pretty clear of computer spaghetti.
The average home user might not need an external drive at all. An iMac with 120+gigabytes would probably go throughout its service life with only 50% capacity filled with an average user, who would most likely fill up their computer with pictures and music rather than lots of ripped DVD's and big applications to create and edit much larger files, which would probably call for a more powerful more configurable machine like the aforementioned Mac Pro anyway.
I don't see how iMacs would fail to live up to Apple's marketing claims just because some extra peripherals are tied into it. By this logic, printers, scanners, your keyboard and mouse, any external equipment for music (keyboards, guitars etc.), and even your docked iPod would "ruin" this idealized vision of computerized elegance because they all require cables to connect to your computer.

I think I'll test drive a few computers in the Apple store when Leopard comes out just to get a feel for the different functions before I actually purchase it. I'm glad that 10.5 has a vastly better pricepoint than Vista, which has a near basic-level PC price for anyone who is not eligible for the upgrade program.

CJD2112
Feb 21, 2007, 12:59 PM
Ok, I'm not sure where or if I posted this question, but I don't see it any where lol (yes, the blond is natural). As an ex-Windows user, I used to run Windows on PC's that I custom built myself (my last PC was a 3.0 gHtz Intel processor with a Soundblaster Audigy 2ZS, 8 gig RAM, nVidia video card, 2 optical drives, etc.). I switched to Macs over four years ago, and will never look back...

Now, I've read that some Mac Pro users have been able to swap out the Intel Dual Core processors for their new Quad Core cousins. I know that PC's with compatible chip sockets can be upgraded. When Mac switched to Intel processors, did they also change the motherboard (aka "logicboard" in Mac lingo)? If so, are the new boards used in Intel Mac's technically upgradeable? As a Dual 2.66 dual core Mac Pro user and someone who knows their way around a machine, are Macs technically PC hardware or is it still unique to Apple? :confused:

...anyone... anyone... Bueller?

flyinmac
Feb 21, 2007, 01:00 PM
Who cares about their computer line?

That's what I'm beginning to wonder. Does Apple care about anything more than the iPod line?

flyinmac
Feb 21, 2007, 01:14 PM
Are you making movies? Are you rendering 3d modeling? How many extra drives could you need? I think ONE external drive would solve your "problems" and the elegance of the iMac would be the same. And if you need more power you would not buy the iMac in the first place, instead the Mac Pro would be the choice. It's just one external disk. I don't see much trouble...

Well, yes, I do use the computer to make movies.

But, I was speaking purely hypothetical regarding the elegance Apple promotes.

I don't mind the cables. I refuse to use wireless. That's the first thing I disable if I cannot physically remove it.

The point I was making, is that Apple sells the iMac by praising how few cables there are. They show it using bluetooth keyboards and mice. They even tend to show it from a view point that doesn't show the lonely power cable.

The whole marketing thing is to push you on it's simple, elegant, and uncluttered design. But, when you start adding external devices, that changes. Suddenly, you have an additional box on the desk (the hard drive), another power cable, and another data cable.

But, yes, as the other poster mentioned, there is always the networked drive option. But, then I need an empty closet (and all mine are full :confused: ).

I personally wouldn't care if there were a few additional drives on my desk. But others surely would.

As it is, on my desk is:

a Mac Mac Mini G4
an external firewire drive
a PC tower
a scanner
a printer
my speakers
two keyboards
two mice
and 3 LCD monitors (19-inch wide-screen, 15-inch, and 17-inch)
my electric stapler, and a bunch of papers.

Specs of all the above left-out for simplicity.

And, that's just the desk I'm sitting at right now. That doesn't include the other ones in the house.

So, a few cables don't bother me. The main point was that I know it would bother others since the external accessories would complicate their desk with more wires and cables and devices than they had intended when they purchased the iMac.

ChrisA
Feb 21, 2007, 01:45 PM
Backing up is easy. What's so amazing about Time Machine is the way you restore.

If all we end up getting in Leopard is Time Machine (I can back my data up VERY easily at the moment thank you),

Most users do a very poor backups. If they do it at all all they do is simply make an exact copy of their disk, over writing the last full image copy. This is far from optimal and not as safe as they think. The major problem is that if a file is lost or corrupt you mostly don't know it, until you try to use it and can't. So you go to your backup but if you've been doing full image backups all you will have is the same. A backup of junk is junk. What you want is a history of the file system with all the changes you made so you can go back to the time hen it wa last good, even if that was 30 backup cycles ago.

Profesionals have known this for many decades and always implement some kind of rotating incremental backup system. But the concept of an incremental is to complex for most home uses so that make full image backups and hve no way to recover a file that was delted months ago or to recover a paragraph from a Word document that was deleted by acident four backup cycles ago.

Time Machine will make the correct method easy for the average user. If all that Leopard has is this one feature it will be worth the upgrade price. Why? Good backup software costs as least asmuch as Leopard will cost.

But we do know that Leopard will have other features. There is talk about Apple "borrowing" two features from Solaris "DTrace" and "ZFS". These are major features that put OS X is the Big Leagues

The rest of the "features" may just be "fluff" like changing some minor user interface stuff around and using different colors and what not. And some incremental changes

ChrisA
Feb 21, 2007, 01:56 PM
....consider that your average user (the home user that would benefit from this most) is not likely to have external hard drive's plugged into their iMac. The more stuff we pile on our desks, the less Apple's iMac lives-up to the marketing Apple gives it.

I think this is why Apple added the ability to plug in USB disk to the new Airport Extreme router. The router is the best place for your backup disks to live. Many Mac users have more than one Mac. It would be best to keep all the backups in one remote place.

Now that noteboks are outselling desktops yu really don't want external drives plugged in. ou want you external to be wireless.

My plan is to attach either 500GB or 1TB to the router for use by Time machine and then periodically "clone" that drive and rotate it to an off site location.

flyinmac
Feb 21, 2007, 02:04 PM
I think this is why Apple added the ability to plug in USB disk to the new Airport Extreme router. The router is the best place for your backup disks to live. Many Mac users have more than one Mac. It would be best to keep all the backups in one remote place.

Now that noteboks are outselling desktops yu really don't want external drives plugged in. ou want you external to be wireless.

My plan is to attach either 500GB or 1TB to the router for use by Time machine and then periodically "clone" that drive and rotate it to an off site location.

Yes, I agree with you there.

But, now it remains to be seen as to how easy it is to gain access to information on the WiFi network. I'd hate to just hand my neighbors the keys. And, at least locally, the security of WiFi isn't proving difficult to get past. The local news is doing drive-by WiFi tests to report and hopefully awaken the people.

Diatribe
Feb 21, 2007, 02:22 PM
Yes, I agree with you there.

But, now it remains to be seen as to how easy it is to gain access to information on the WiFi network. I'd hate to just hand my neighbors the keys. And, at least locally, the security of WiFi isn't proving difficult to get past. The local news is doing drive-by WiFi tests to report and hopefully awaken the people.

WPA2 should be pretty safe, of course anything can be broken but WPA2 at least not by anyone driving by or your neighbor casually.

JGowan
Feb 21, 2007, 02:33 PM
Me, it's for 10.7 Garfield

Or 10.8 Liger :D

Or 10.9 Tom :D

You're wrong...I think there has to be at least one called 'Top'

11.0 Felix

They're gonna stick with the Cat thing

flyinmac
Feb 21, 2007, 02:50 PM
WPA2 should be pretty safe, of course anything can be broken but WPA2 at least not by anyone driving by or your neighbor casually.

Hopefully that proves to be true.

Merlyn3D
Feb 21, 2007, 03:11 PM
11.0 Felix

They're gonna stick with the Cat thing

hmm...maybe 11.0 Ocelot


Given the rate at which apple is coming out with these ads though, I personally can't wait to see what ads they cook up for leopard v. vista. That will be great.:D

Peace
Feb 21, 2007, 03:24 PM
hmm...maybe 11.0 Ocelot


Given the rate at which apple is coming out with these ads though, I personally can't wait to see what ads they cook up for leopard v. vista. That will be great.:D

Have you seen the commercial with 2 Lions talking to each other about taco bell or something ?

Visualize : Cartoon characters.

A "leopard" sitting on a hill with a female sitting there over looking a "Vista"

The girl says to the Leopard "Hi,I'm a PC"
The Leopard says "Hi,I'm a Mac".Then gobbles her up :D

Attonine
Feb 21, 2007, 03:57 PM
Wow, this is the first I've heard such comments -- could you elaborate on what feels sluggish on Intel Macs that doesn't on PowerPC?

I know I have to reboot my machine far more often than my colleague with a G4 powerbook does. Having said that it's far, far less than I have to reboot my office windows machine

ebouwman
Feb 21, 2007, 04:48 PM
I'm not looking forward to this at all... Too many products launched too close together. Doesn't bode well for the wallet...

I would have to agree, I still owe people lots of money, bills to pay, Leopard being released, iPhone not to far away :eek:

Lynxpro
Feb 21, 2007, 07:50 PM
11.0 Felix


Mac OS X 11.0 - Lion-O.


Why? Because The ThunderCats rule, that's why!

Old Smuggler
Feb 21, 2007, 08:01 PM
http://files.myopera.com/scaccs/albums/45790/thundercats.png

Lion-O (http://thundercats.vpga.com/bios/lion_o.wav)



Snarf (http://thundercats.vpga.com/bios/snarf.wav)

flyinmac
Feb 21, 2007, 08:07 PM
http://files.myopera.com/scaccs/albums/45790/thundercats.png
Lion-O (http://thundercats.vpga.com/bios/lion_o.wav)
Snarf (http://thundercats.vpga.com/bios/snarf.wav)


That would make for an excellent rebirth of the iBook Clamshell. The shape and everything looks perfect. Bring back the Clamshells.

balamw
Feb 21, 2007, 11:54 PM
11.0 Felix

They're gonna stick with the Cat thing

So would 11.1 be Fritz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_the_Cat)?

B

iW00t
Feb 22, 2007, 07:31 AM
Most users do a very poor backups. If they do it at all all they do is simply make an exact copy of their disk, over writing the last full image copy. This is far from optimal and not as safe as they think. The major problem is that if a file is lost or corrupt you mostly don't know it, until you try to use it and can't. So you go to your backup but if you've been doing full image backups all you will have is the same. A backup of junk is junk. What you want is a history of the file system with all the changes you made so you can go back to the time hen it wa last good, even if that was 30 backup cycles ago.


At $30, Chronosync is a lot cheaper than Leopard :)

zagato27
Feb 22, 2007, 08:04 AM
http://files.myopera.com/scaccs/albums/45790/thundercats.png

Lion-O (http://thundercats.vpga.com/bios/lion_o.wav)



Snarf (http://thundercats.vpga.com/bios/snarf.wav)

Love it! How about a link? Thanks