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View Full Version : GM admits to making crappy cars


JesseJames
May 30, 2003, 04:41 PM
I don't know if anyone has seen the news blurb that GM's latest ad campaign is to fess up that they made poor quality cars in the past 20 years.
I'm laughing at that one. Anyone who's owned a GM product can attest to that.
I'm thinking of buying a Hyundai Elantra GT for my next vehicle. My first brand-spanking-new car will be a Hyundai. Hahahahahaha! They may have been a joke 10 years ago but no one is laughing now. I hope Hyundai keeps those GM execs awake at night. Hahahahahahahaha!

DakotaGuy
May 30, 2003, 05:00 PM
I haven't seen the ad. In my opinion, GM being scared of Hyundai is sorta like Microsoft being scared of Apple.

I know some people that swear by GM products, so there are probably a few good ones out there.

I have a friend that has a Hyundai and it is a good decent car, much improved over older Hyundai's. I think, however, you will (in general) find Korean automobile quality to be lower then US and European and much lower then Japanese. Daewoo (which I think GM actually owns now) and Kia have had some very troubling models. The Kia Sephia was especially troublesome. Hyundai is probably the best as far as Korean cars are concered. I think however cars like the Pontiac Grand Am or Ford Focus might be a better choice then a Hyundai. Japanese and European cars are excellent, but along with that comes a higher price tag. Just my 0.02 on this.

applemacdude
Jun 1, 2003, 12:14 AM
but we already knew they were crappy

Coca-Cola
Jun 1, 2003, 12:51 AM
Buy a Honda. Honda's are excellent cars. The resale value is very nice also. I just bought a new Pontiac Vibe to replace my 1983 accord. I think the 1983 honda is superior in quality to my twenty year newer GM car. That little car was solid. My Vibe, well, it rattles. Drives me nuts.

Kwyjibo
Jun 1, 2003, 12:56 AM
hmmmm my family loves GM cars for the most part...my uncle is a GM mechanic and my parents swear by their buicks and they got me and my sister a grand am to use....since I can remember the cars have never had any huge problems, the only time it was even gone for more than a few hours was one time my mom got in a fender bender.

King Cobra
Jun 1, 2003, 08:23 AM
We have two vehicles (a car and a truck) from GM, and the electrical circuitry in each could have been improved significantly.

How about for our truck, the time and stereo digits light up, but nothing lights up for the AC/heat? Or perhaps resetting the electrical system before anythhing lights up?

Maybe, in our car, we don't want to know about some high tire pressure 5 times after every time the car starts up, even though the pressure is fine. http://www.thetechpub.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif http://www.thetechpub.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif http://www.thetechpub.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/new_snipersmilie.gif

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Coca-Cola
Buy a Honda. Honda's are excellent cars. The resale value is very nice also. I just bought a new Pontiac Vibe to replace my 1983 accord. I think the 1983 honda is superior in quality to my twenty year newer GM car. That little car was solid. My Vibe, well, it rattles. Drives me nuts.

You bought a Toyota though

(Vibe is based on the Toyota Matrix platform which is essentially a plastic-cladded Corolla in wagon form)

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
I haven't seen the ad. In my opinion, GM being scared of Hyundai is sorta like Microsoft being scared of Apple.

More like Intel being scared of AMD; they know there's a competitor breathing down their neck and it's getting scarier every year.

I know some people that swear by GM products, so there are probably a few good ones out there.

There are people that will swear by any make of car (Okay, maybe not Renault ;) ), it doesn't mean they're all quality vehicles. Many people who swear by GM remember the glory days or were raised by parents who lived the glory days of American iron. Those days are long gone.

I have a friend that has a Hyundai and it is a good decent car, much improved over older Hyundai's.

This has been verified by CR and seems to the consensus amongst auto journalists. IOW, it's gotta be true.

I think, however, you will (in general) find Korean automobile quality to be lower then US and European and much lower then Japanese. Daewoo (which I think GM actually owns now) and Kia have had some very troubling models.

You have to remember that it can vary wildly depending on the specific model. You can never dismiss or accept a car based on its nameplate. There have been plenty of small Ford and GM cars and trucks made by the likes of Isuzu (Geo Storm), Suzuki (Metro), Kia (Ford Aspire) and even Daewoo (Pontiac LeMans) throughout the years, and they were by and large junk.

I think however cars like the Pontiac Grand Am or Ford Focus might be a better choice then a Hyundai.

There are about 13 safety recalls for the Focus that might tend to disagree with you there -- including a tendency for a rear wheel to fly off while driving. And most auto critics will attest that the Grand Am is an exercise in mediocrity.

Japanese and European cars are excellent, but along with that comes a higher price tag. Just my 0.02 on this.

Initially, sometimes. From best to worst in terms of reliability, the scale goes: Japan, Europe, US.

However, TCO is something that needs to be factored in, and while US made cars used to be cheaper to own because the parts were readily available and very cheap (like $20 vs. $150 for domestic vs. foreign; I worked 3 years in the independent auto parts business), this is no longer the case, as domestic parts are just as expensive as imports nowadays.

If you're buying a car for thift, you can't go wrong with a Honda or Toyota.

Most people don't buy a car for one reason, though. They choose one based on a weighted scale of what's important to them.

BTW, I certainly do my homework on cars, but I'm a VW nut and can't see myself ever buying anything not from VWAG, so I don't have any personal stake in Hyundai or anything against GM per se.

job
Jun 1, 2003, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
BTW, I certainly do my homework on cars, but I'm a VW nut and can't see myself ever buying anything not from VWAG, so I don't have any personal stake in Hyundai or anything against GM per se.

Whodathunkit?

I'm a VW fan/nut as well. ;) :D

I restoring an old 1976 Beetle cabrio with my father.

And as to make this post not completely off topic..

I honestly think GM has lost their way. Examine a Tahoe, Yukon, and yes, even an Escalade and tell me if there is any difference other than price. Ugly designs and lack of innovation have been flaws in GM's products for the past several years now.

icetraxxg5
Jun 1, 2003, 11:26 AM
I personally think that a lot of new GM cars/trucks are ugly; but all the GM cars we have had have minimal problems except the last S-10 Extreme we had since it had a handful of problems. I personally think that Hyundai or any other korean car manufactors for that matter mean almost nothing to GM or any of the big 3. I would say the comparision between intel and AMD representing GM and Hyundai is highly flawed because Hyundai has next to nothing in market share when GM has almost 30% market share. Also GM is dedicated to making cars while Hyundai makes many other things besides cars. GM is a good company; offering 0% interest which I believe next to no imported cars are offering.

In conclusion, I believe that anyone who makes fun of GM that even hasn't owned one really needs to shut their mouth. I hate biased people that make conclusions about reliability in certain cars that obviously hasn't owned an american car or a wide variety of cars to make that conclusion. :mad: If you like saying reliability goes Japanese, European, American, then more power to you for being a total idiot :rolleyes: No one can make that conclusion unless they have owned every current Japanese, European, and American cars from a wide variety of Manufacturers. :o Personally we have had tons more problems with the 5 european (BMW) vehicles we have maintained then any of the 12 GM vehicles we have had since 80's to now, ever.

icetraxxg5
Jun 1, 2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by job
I honestly think GM has lost their way. Examine a Tahoe, Yukon, and yes, even an Escalade and tell me if there is any difference other than price. Ugly designs and lack of innovation have been flaws in GM's products for the past several years now.

I believe you are right; GM does have a huge identity problem, they are trying to get the younger crowd to buy Cadillacs... Why? Who cares, leave Cadillac for luxorious (old people, hehe) vehicles. When you say lack of innovation I am guessing you have never seen the aztek :D

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by icetraxxg5
I would say the comparision between intel and AMD representing GM and Hyundai is highly flawed because Hyundai has next to nothing in market share when GM has almost 30% market share.

That market share is eroding and they know it.

Also GM is dedicated to making cars while Hyundai makes many other things besides cars.

Um... GM owns a lot of other businesses, Hughes Satellite being one of them (GM is the largest distributor of pornography in the world because of this connection). So you're dead wrong when you say that GM is dedicated to making cars. In fact, a GM president said "we don't make cars, we make money." Those 0% financing deals you extol? Yup, GMAC financing, a non-car branch of GM.

In conclusion, I believe that anyone who makes fun of GM that even hasn't owned one really needs to shut their mouth. I hate biased people. :mad:

I've owned one. I've driven more than one. Mostly they were blah at best. Please don't tell anyone to shut their mouth, unless you'd like the same sentiment thrown back at you.

job
Jun 1, 2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by icetraxxg5
When you say lack of innovation I am guessing you have never seen the aztek :D

If by "innovation" you mean butt-ass ugly. ;) :p :D :D :D

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by icetraxxg5
When you say lack of innovation I am guessing you have never seen the aztek :D

When you say innovation I take it you mean innovation in the "we let our designers eat 'shrooms on the job and don't double-check the design before releasing it" sense, then yeah, I guess the Aztek is the pinnacle of innovation.

icetraxxg5
Jun 1, 2003, 11:37 AM
Umm... I don't know what numbers you are reading from but GM's market share has increased to 28.8 percent total over the past year from the mid 25's.

icetraxxg5
Jun 1, 2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
When you say innovation I take it you mean innovation in the "we let our designers eat 'shrooms on the job and don't double-check the design before releasing it" sense, then yeah, I guess the Aztek is the pinnacle of innovation.

Well the Aztek is a good... whatever it is...
Well at least its innovation! :D :eek:

icetraxxg5
Jun 1, 2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
That market share is eroding and they know it.



Um... GM owns a lot of other businesses, Hughes Satellite being one of them (GM is the largest distributor of pornography in the world because of this connection). So you're dead wrong when you say that GM is dedicated to making cars. In fact, a GM president said "we don't make cars, we make money." Those 0% financing deals you extol? Yup, GMAC financing, a non-car branch of GM.



I've owned one. I've driven more than one. Mostly they were blah at best. Please don't tell anyone to shut their mouth, unless you'd like the same sentiment thrown back at you.

1. I believe I have answered what you have said about marketshare
2. I believe you are right there and I was wrong.
3. I have edited my post to be more specific.

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by icetraxxg5
Umm... I don't know what numbers you are reading from but GM's market share has increased to 28.8 percent total over the past year from the mid 25's.

Partially right: it's up from 28.1% two years ago, but sales are down.

With almost 1.8 million sales, Toyota Motor Corp. reported its best U.S. results in the 45 years it has sold cars in this country -- its seventh-straight record year. Its luxury Lexus division also posted a record year, with 234,109 sales and leases, sealing a third-straight year as the most popular luxury brand.

Honda Motor Co.'s sales grew 3.3 percent to 1.25 million cars and trucks. And sales of Korea's top automaker, Hyundai, grew 8.3 percent to 375,000.

Market share means jack if your sales are shrinking and your profit margins are dropping.

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 11:45 AM
Also, most of the business they're getting as an increase in market share is being taken from Ford, while European and Japanese automakers continue to increase market share while turning good profit and increasing sales.

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by icetraxxg5
Well the Aztek is a good... whatever it is...
Well at least its innovation! :D :eek:

I don't think I've ever heard the words "good" and "Aztek" in the same sentence, except for "good God, what were they thinking?"

Sales are awful. They couldn't give the things away -- oh, wait, they did -- to the Survivor cast.

job
Jun 1, 2003, 11:54 AM
I'd like to make a point here:

Who would buy a boxy, angular, thing
http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/futuremodels/xlr/images/XLRHero_img.jpg

when they could get a sleeker, and IMO, better car for the same price?
http://www3.us.porsche.com/english/usa/911/c2cabrio/bilder/intro_ani.gif

I personally find the new angular designs of the Cadillacs just as unappealing as the 7- and new 5-Series BMW's.

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by job
I'd like to make a point here:

Who would buy a boxy, angular, thing
http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/futuremodels/xlr/images/XLRHero_img.jpg

when they could get a sleeker, and IMO, better car for the same price?
http://www3.us.porsche.com/english/usa/911/c2cabrio/bilder/intro_ani.gif

I personally find the new angular designs of the Cadillacs just as unappealing as the 7- and new 5-Series BMW's.

That Caddy's a softer, more refined 'Vette with Cavalier switchgear. Gah! And they almost got it right.

But yeah, the Porsche 996 is quite possibly the world's best car all around. (Especially the Turbo)

job
Jun 1, 2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
But yeah, the Porsche 996 is quite possibly the world's best car all around. (Especially the Turbo)

I've been lusting for the Carrera GT for the past few days now.

It's too damn expensive! :p

Kwyjibo
Jun 1, 2003, 12:10 PM
Yeah the porsche looks awesome...they aren't that reliable tho either. My friend (17) bought a boxster it was a 97 with less than 50k miles. Since he bought it in February, its had the check engine light go one three times and each time he pays a grand to get whatever it is fixed (one time 1700), Porsche mechanics in this area get like $100 per hour i think....so hes getting it up the --- because hes got an awesome loooking cars (never seen so many girls waving)...my grand am on the other hand, has had two problems both of whcih were fixed under warranty ..... a broken seat belt clamp (the light wouldn't go off ) and the steering wheel got stuck in my regualr position and i didn't even notice until someone else tried to drive it. My point, yes the porsche looks awesome but don't think that there is a car that has no problems.

Coca-Cola
Jun 1, 2003, 01:10 PM
I used to own an early Chevy Blazer. That was a horrible machine. Every single gasket leaked (no joke). I almost think they planned on having them leak after 50,000 miles. They have been making powertrains for a very very long time. You would think they would have the simple and very important things mastered by now. Horrible, all the eighties GM cars are. How many used chevettes and aries k cars do you see tooling around? I see way more old VW's, Toyotas, and Hondas still making the rounds. GM makes disposable cars.

MacFan25
Jun 1, 2003, 01:15 PM
Some of the newer GM's don't seem to be too bad in reliability. But, it seems that almost ALL toyotas and hondas are very reliable. some of those old toyotas will go 200,000 miles without major problems, easily. :eek: :D

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by job
I've been lusting for the Carrera GT for the past few days now.

It's too damn expensive! :p

Ah, what's a quarter mil?

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Kwyjibo
Yeah the porsche looks awesome...they aren't that reliable tho either. My friend (17) bought a boxster it was a 97 with less than 50k miles. Since he bought it in February, its had the check engine light go one three times and each time he pays a grand to get whatever it is fixed (one time 1700), Porsche mechanics in this area get like $100 per hour i think....so hes getting it up the --- because hes got an awesome loooking cars (never seen so many girls waving)...my grand am on the other hand, has had two problems both of whcih were fixed under warranty ..... a broken seat belt clamp (the light wouldn't go off ) and the steering wheel got stuck in my regualr position and i didn't even notice until someone else tried to drive it. My point, yes the porsche looks awesome but don't think that there is a car that has no problems.

Keep in mind a used Porsche is the one that was beat to hell by the previous owner.

Also remember that there's a difference between being able to afford to buy a car and being able to afford to own a car.

I could have bought a classic Roller for what I paid for my TDI, but I sure as hell wouldn't be able to afford it.

zimv20
Jun 1, 2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Kwyjibo
My friend (17) bought a boxster it was a 97 with less than 50k miles.


a 17 year old w/ a porsche? where did i go wrong? oh yeah, i was born lower-middle class.

i've been lusting after the 911s for as long as i remember. i'll have to make a lot more money before i can afford to own one, though.

in the meantime, i drive my VW New Beetle TDI (yes, the diesel). it's like a poor man's porsche.

zimv20
Jun 1, 2003, 02:19 PM
when i rent cars, they are usually GM. i like driving them because i can reaffirm my position that i don't like GM cars. or trucks, i rented a Blazer once.

they feel cheap, they rattle, they have poor handling. i can't speak to their repair records.

most reliable car i ever had was a mazda (the only japanese car i've owned).

MacFan25
Jun 1, 2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by zimv20
most reliable car i ever had was a mazda (the only japanese car i've owned).
ford now owns mazda.

i think that we can all agree that most japanese and european cars are very reliable.

JesseJames
Jun 1, 2003, 02:26 PM
My father has owned:
'81 Buick Regal; lasted long, until it got past 70,000 miles and just started falling apart.

'86 Chevy Astro; made it to high mileage but then developed trannie problem. Was on the way to garage but got wrecked. Oh well.

'89 Buick Lesabre; was okay, engine made it past 200,000 but everything and I mean EVERYTHING started falling apart.

I have owned:
2 Chevy Camaros. One was a IROC Z28. It was fast but otherwise junk. It got stolen. Twice.
The other Camaro was a 2.8 liter V6 and it was junk. I currently drive a 93 Pontiac Sunbird. It's got over 154,000 miles and it has been serving me reasonably well. But it will soon need to be retired. I've replaced the clutch, clutch master cylinder, repaired oil leak on top of engine block, and done routine maintenance.
I won't be buying another GM product soon because I want to exercise my power as a consumer. And I like the Hyundai Elantra GT 5-door. Americas's Best Warranty!
My father currently drives a Honda Accord.;) :D

Kwyjibo
Jun 1, 2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by zimv20
a 17 year old w/ a porsche? where did i go wrong? oh yeah, i was born lower-middle class.
I know, we walk around school and you cna hear hey theres the kid with the porsche.... it seems really weird to me but i'm used it. I would agree about the beat to hell thing tho.....I'm not sure how he paid for it but my suburb is pure middle to upper middle .... Hes one of the smartest people I know and this fall he kept playing around with the stock market so I think he ended up making about 10 grand in the fall and thne he sold his other car and made it up to about 20k I think he ended up paying between 22 and 25 but i don't have a number, my only point was that I probably push my grand am harder and it runs great whereas his has problems.

Groovsonic
Jun 1, 2003, 03:18 PM
This entire thread leaves me torn. Part of me wants to stand up and try to defend GM. I want GM to do well. I want Caddilacs to be the awesome lustworthy cars they once were. I want Buicks to be the luxo-boats they once were. I want Pontiac to make sporty family cars and I want Chevy to make affordable, exciting cars.
And in part, they are. But they keep missing the mark slightly. The Aztek is a great example. It is, by all accounts, a great whatever it is. It has gotten good reviews for practicality, utility and build quality. However, it is so freaky looking no one will buy it. Most of the cars GM makes are just really bland and while not bad cars, not excellent in any respect. There are a few bright spots (caddilac seville STS, Corvette), but for the most part, they are so uncool.
Japan builds quality cars. No doubt about it. But unless you are willing to spend big bucks, they are so bland. Accords and Camrys will give you no trouble, but they wont excatly turn your head either. There is really nothing exciting about a Camry. Sorry.
Europe builds good looking, reliable cars, but they are so dang expensive for what you get. I realize a fully loaded Jetta is $27,000, and it is worth every penny. I realize its a fantastic car, but its hard to justify buying a Jetta for that much when you can buy a loaded camry or a jeep grand cherokee. I know you can buy a cheaper VW, but you can always buy a cheaper Korean or American car.
I also get the feeling that just like some people will only buy american cars, some people will never buy an american car. Neither is right. There are good cars made in america, and there are bad japaneese cars. And vice-versa. Don't discount a car made by GM or Ford just because it is american. Thats like someone saying they used a Mac in 1990, and they had a problem, so now they hate macs. Thats dumb. Same thing applies here. I have a friend who says fords suck, and would never buy one because their parents bought one like 20 years ago and it had problems. Thats stupid, and has nothing to do with the fords of today. We own a Mercury sable and think its great. We have owned many american cars over the years. Not all have been good, but for the most part, they have been fine.
What I want to know is, why can't american cars be as good or better than both european and japaneese cars? Do we not have the engineering talent here? Do we not have the manufacturing ability here? What is the magic formula that european and japaneese manufacturers have that we do not?

Meanwhile...I can't afford a new car right now... Bring back the YUGO!!!!

(NOT!!!)

zimv20
Jun 1, 2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Groovsonic

I also get the feeling that just like some people will only buy american cars, some people will never buy an american car. Neither is right.


that's a good point. sadly, my 1979 ford pinto was the best (and the oldest) of the 3 fords i've owned.

over the years, i've owned 2 VWs (new, '87 & '98), 1 mazda (new, '92), 3 fords (used, '79, '81, '86 <i think>).

based on that, i found, for reliability:

1. mazda
2. VW
3. ford

but for fun, i found:

1. VW
2. ford
3. mazda