Sony's New PS3 European Mess Up

[LukeW]

Hi kids! Want a PS3, well, it coming to a European store near you, with a huge mark up on RRP price over what American and Japanese gamers are paying and, guess what, you can now Get LESS for MORE! Thats right, those backward compatible features that will allow you to play your old PS2 back catalogue, kiss those goodbye, or at least at a severely reduced capacity, lets hope you arent the unlucky sod that has the games that wont work, knowing my luck they will probably include Ico and Shadow of the Collossus.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070223/tc_nm/sony_playstation_europe_dc

Software will take over some of the functionality that was originally taken care of by dedicated chips, which means far fewer PlayStation 2 (PS2) games can be played on a European PS3 compared with the Japanese and American PS3 models which play 98 percent of old games.

"Sony is managing expectations by saying now that the new console will play fewer of the old games, and that's a good thing," said analyst Alex Kwiatowski at British market research group Vertical Market Technologies.

[MacRumorUser]

Glad I imported.

So basically we are 1 - only allowing you to buy the more expensive model

And 2 - we have taken out the ps2 dedicated chips to reduce "our" costs - not yours.

:rolleyes:

[raggedjimmi]

Incredible. I thought the bad news train had stopped. Guess not!

[TBi]

Sounds to me like Sony have whipped out a massive tube of KY for the european gamers :)

The XBOX 360 looks more enticing by the day... and i won't even be buying either.

Well maybe a Wii... but that's about it.

[emotion]

I thought Sony may have been able to recover from their initial set backs. Esp. in Europe. Pulling this kind of stunt is just daft at this stage.

[paddy]

They must almost be making a profit on the European PS3's/at least breaking even yeah?

[MacRumorUser]

I thought Sony may have been able to recover from their initial set backs. Esp. in Europe. Pulling this kind of stunt is just daft at this stage.

The things is how many people who are gonig to get one even know about this latest fart in your face ?

Probably none. This piece of info wont hit the mainstream until AFTER the machine has been released. That's probably why it was only blurted out now.


They must almost be making a profit on the European PS3's/at least breaking even yeah?

Probably not still. They dont expect to make hardware profit for some time, and this cost cutting saving, whilst as a whole is probably quite effective, per individual console basis were probably talking $10-15


Also as they are now phasing out 20gb in ALL teritories, expect this minor hardware revision to also follow suit.

[paddy]

God if they had just left that blu-ray out. :rolleyes:

[TBi]

They dont expect to make hardware profit for some time, and this cost cutting saving, whilst as a whole is probably quite effective, per individual console basis were probably talking $10-15

Unless they made a PCB change i'm guessing the savings is less, probably only $5-10 (or at their conversion rates €7-14)

God if they had just left that blu-ray out. :rolleyes:

They'd probably still charge the high prices though... and it would be quite annoying having a games machine that can't play any game released for it (they are all Blu Ray).

[bluebomberman]

So they're just going to leave it like that? If it's software, like XBox 360, then conceivably that can be fixed over time, right?

[TBi]

So they're just going to leave it like that? If it's software, like XBox 360, then conceivably that can be fixed over time, right?

Yes but with the XBOX 360 every system had this limitation, thus they had to put a lot of resources into getting it right. With this only the European systems are lacking, so why waste a lot of valuable time getting it right. Plus they don't seem to care that much about us, considering we get the console months late and over priced...

[gloss]

Every week I'm amazed all over again at the level at which Sony takes its customers for granted.

Ridiculous.

[thisonechance]

Sony, I'd like to thank you once again for giving me yet another reason not to buy a PS3. I have seen few companies go as far to stick it to the consumer as much as Sony has with this product. It is almost a joke at this point (except for those to whom Sony is sticking it).

Kudos.

[darkwing]

The ridiculous comments were by an analyst and not by Sony. While I don't agree with this move, it's not new news. Sony's said for a while that future versions in America/Japan would have those chips removed to reduce cost, power consumption, and possibly size. I was hoping they wouldn't, because I figured PS3 games could leverage those chips for further parallel processing, but I guess that isn't in the spec.

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=12864

So as another poster said, they're setting expectation with the realization that there will/could be BC issues until the emulator is working perfectly.

This is old news, people. The question now is are they going to remove these chips in future US/Japan PS3s or just wait until the 65 nm Cells are done and unify on a new manufacturing process then?

[LukeW]

The ridiculous comments were by an analyst and not by Sony. While I don't agree with this move, it's not new news. Sony's said for a while that future versions in America/Japan would have those chips removed to reduce cost, power consumption, and possibly size. I was hoping they wouldn't, because I figured PS3 games could leverage those chips for further parallel processing, but I guess that isn't in the spec.

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=12864

So as another poster said, they're setting expectation with the realization that there will/could be BC issues until the emulator is working perfectly.

This is old news, people. The question now is are they going to remove these chips in future US/Japan PS3s or just wait until the 65 nm Cells are done and unify on a new manufacturing process then?

I think the reason people (or me at least anyway) are upset at this is that Sony are deliberately removing features from the European consoles launch (which may or may not follow in future models for America or Japan markets) yet are not only not passing the saving onto the consumer but are actually charging us way more for the privilege of doing so. All consoles get marked up in price for our launches, including the Wii, but in this case it would be like Nintendo removing the Wii’s backward compatibility with the Gamecube games deliberately for our launch despite having been boasting a month or so before that the machine will play 99% of the old games.
A lot of people are going to be buying the machine to play their old PS2 games and are not going to be aware of just how intentionally crippled the machine is going to be now. That said I really do hope they decide to spend time updating the emulation software but considering how lax Sony have been at fixing problems, I sadly doubt it. Sony have snuck this news our the door a few weeks before the consoles launch so when people get this home and find they cant play their old games they will be able to say that it was announced before so tough luck, which frankly stinks a little.

[darkwing]

I think the reason people (or me at least anyway) are upset at this is that Sony are deliberately removing features from the European consoles launch (which may or may not follow in future models for America or Japan markets) yet are not only not passing the saving onto the consumer but are actually charging us way more for the privilege of doing so. All consoles get marked up in price for our launches, including the Wii, but in this case it would be like Nintendo removing the Wii’s backward compatibility with the Gamecube games deliberately for our launch despite having been boasting a month or so before that the machine will play 99% of the old games.

Supply and demand. If nobody buys the PS3, then they'll drop the price. Organize a boycott. They aren't "removing features" at all. They're moving in the direction they said they would. If anything, you have the "newest model" over there.

We may hear an announcement soon that they do the same thing for our PS3s here starting in March.

[gloss]

Yes, Europe, you should be honored to be receiving the first of these new 'Streamlined' machines. And you're only paying an 80% premium for it! Praise Sony.

[darkwing]

The point is that Sony feels the Europeans will pay their price. They control the supply. If Sony is wrong, then they will have to increase demand. This can be done with incentives (free games, etc) or by lowering the price.

Does it suck they're doing this? Yep. Will they get away with it? Yep. Like MRU was saying games and systems have always been a rip-off in Europe. Maybe if they abandoned socialism somebody might develop a product for a market I'm sure is there for a European made video game console and then they'd compete on the world stage. As it stands right now it seems the only game development in Europe comes from when Microsoft or Sony hire a studio that happens to be located over there.

On a separate note, the more I think about it, the more I doubt that Sony will manufacture a different console just for the European market. I'll bet dollars to donuts they announce the same thing for future consoles made in the US and Japan before the European launch date.

Anyone care to conjecture?

On another side note, Trusty Bell (Eternal Sonata in the USA) has me looking at a 360 seriously for the first time. I'm a huge fan of Namco RPGs. However, I used to also be a huge fan of Square RPGs and Crystal Chronicles and Legend of Mana were two games that let me down. (As has the FF series since 7 and on.)

[Piarco]

I understand what you are saying re: supply and demand, and you're correct. If the consumers still buy, then Sony doesn't really care. However, this little nugget isn't exactly widely known, and I doubt that the folks in Game etc are informing their purchased that this is now the case with the European models.

The fact that this "streamlined" (nice spin on a negative situation) model is being inflicted first on Europe. Are you surprised that Europe feels like Sony's whipping boy? Delays and more expense... for less.

Sony should have released the downgraded console globally after a period of bedding down. You really do have to wonder who makes these decisions... and the poor PR folks who have to deal with the fallout...

[gloss]

And I said nothing about whether or not they were going to get away with it or whether or not there was some sort of fiscal reasoning behind it, simply that it displays an incredible sense of arrogance. I have not seen another company that takes its customers for granted to the degree that Sony does. And I'm getting to the point where I hope it seriously bites them in the ass.

[e²Studios]

Private. Nice try.

And I said nothing about whether or not they were going to get away with it or whether or not there was some sort of fiscal reasoning behind it, simply that it displays an incredible sense of arrogance. I have not seen another company that takes its customers for granted to the degree that Sony does. And I'm getting to the point where I hope it seriously bites them in the ass.

Every company does this, MS did it with the 360 only i believe it backfired a lot worse than this and they are still recovering from it.

It's called lessening their loss, right now they are taking a huge loss on the systems, for every component they remove and virtualize (PS2/1 Support) or as the prices of the components go down it lessens the time before they start profiting. Once thats happens its a good thing for consumers, thats when you usually will see a price drop. This isnt a negative thing if you look at the big picture, it just happens to be something that the people on this board can spin in to a "oh nooz Sony is teh doom3d!!!"

Ed

[gloss]

Every company does this, MS did it with the 360 only i believe it backfired a lot worse than this and they are still recovering from it.

It's called lessening their loss, right now they are taking a huge loss on the systems, for every component they remove and virtualize (PS2/1 Support) or as the prices of the components go down it lessens the time before they start profiting. Once thats happens its a good thing for consumers, thats when you usually will see a price drop. This isnt a negative thing if you look at the big picture, it just happens to be something that the people on this board can spin in to a "oh nooz Sony is teh doom3d!!!"

Ed

That isn't at all what I'm trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that crippling an advertised feature AFTER the release of the console elsewhere in the world, in addition to charging considerably more for it, is very poor customer relations. This is the sort of cost cutting they should have been considering a year ago, when the system was still in its design stages. It's poor form to make such blatantly desperate moves at the expense of the market who is paying the most in the world in the first place, *after* both of the other major world markets have received a product with those features intact.

It's just another in a long line of stumbles the company has made with the PS3, that's all.

[raggedjimmi]

Oh wait, backwards compatability was the primary reason for me wanting a PS3 so I could play the godlike PS1 games and the PS2 games I missed out on.

[darkwing]

I understand what you are saying re: supply and demand, and you're correct. If the consumers still buy, then Sony doesn't really care. However, this little nugget isn't exactly widely known, and I doubt that the folks in Game etc are informing their purchased that this is now the case with the European models.

The fact that this "streamlined" (nice spin on a negative situation) model is being inflicted first on Europe. Are you surprised that Europe feels like Sony's whipping boy? Delays and more expense... for less.

Sony should have released the downgraded console globally after a period of bedding down. You really do have to wonder who makes these decisions... and the poor PR folks who have to deal with the fallout...

How is "streamlined" negative spin? The fact is, that will be the basis of the new PS3. My PS3 is now the older not even a year after its release. Is this supposed to make me happy? If anything I'm saying being in my position is just as bad, but who cares? The functionality will ultimately be the same... and in fact, these newer models running an emulator can upscale and AA the PS2 games to make them look even better! If Sony chooses to do this, then how many people with my model are going to be jealous/upset? Unless of course Sony lets us run the emu, too.

Europe gets the delays and the higher cost because there's no other competition. Not to mention all your taxes and stuff. Sony's probably charging more as insurance when the EU fines start coming. :rolleyes:

[LukeW]

This isnt a negative thing if you look at the big picture, it just happens to be something that the people on this board can spin in to a "oh nooz Sony is teh doom3d!!!"


If I remember right, one of features Sony was boasting about was the fact that the PS3 would be backwardly compatible with both PS2 and PS1 games. If they dont have that feature and didnt announce its presence, then fine, but they where boasting about it openly. US and Japanese models where released with it built into the units, and while it was rather crappy emulation at first, eventually Sony (I think) released a patch to correct it. The European units wont just have crappy emulation, there is a good chance that a load of games arent going to work at all now. How is this positive except for Sony? I feel this wont be just a European issue to begin with, they are probably going to release future models with this new 'streamlined' configuration but I wonder how people will react when they buy a new PS3 only to realise it wont be able to do half the old games that their friends older system will? Customers dont take kindly to companies removing features by stealth. The only way it will work is if they get the software emulation to work well, in which case all the better, but until then there is going to be a lot of people unhappy when in March they find out their PS3's arent going to be playing the games they where expecting it would. I personally wont be getting a system until they fix the emulation to play all the games that I own for the PS2, plus they could probably lower the price a little too, I dont see why I should have to pay a huge markup just because of where I live, even with any additional taxes Sony have to pay, they are still making more out of me that someone exactly the same in America or even more than someone in Japan. Is it illegal? Nope! Does it make good business sense? Yep. But that don't mean it's a okay thing to do. Just cause you can doesnt mean you should!

[paddy]

How is "streamlined" negative spin?

Sony's probably charging more as insurance when the EU fines start coming. :rolleyes:

He never said it was negative spin, he said it was good spin on a negative situation. Anyway at least someone will stand up to the big corporations (e.g. Sony, Microsoft and even Apple). More than the US gov ever does.

[e²Studios]

But that don't mean it's a okay thing to do. Just cause you can doesnt mean you should!

Since when has any business operated on ethics over economics? :rolleyes:

[Coded-Dude]

Does this mean I need to revive my "Sony are teh d00m3d" thread.......:rolleyes:

[darkwing]

He never said it was negative spin, he said it was good spin on a negative situation. Anyway at least someone will stand up to the big corporations (e.g. Sony, Microsoft and even Apple). More than the US gov ever does.

Actually the Clinton administration sued Microsoft about 8 years ago if you recall. You also may recall the NASDAQ was cut in half by the time Clinton left office, and the dot-com bust came right after that. Hmm.

Anyway, the EU doesn't stand up to anything. They "stood up" to Microsoft and now Europeans are paying $800 for Vista. Enjoy! I love how subsidized Airbus just lost out in a huge bid to Boeing. At least Airbus can rob the taxpayers to stay operating.

Face it. The EU is an irrelevant body that has little to no power over the course of world affairs. Almost everything they do (like the Microsoft fine) is nothing more than a cry for attention. A "United Europe" is a socialist dream that will never work because of the differences in interests, backgrounds, and cultures. The only common thing Europe has is Christianity, but that's a big no no to the EU. Gotta be nice to France, the next Muslim-majority (sometime between 2030-2050) nation you know. :rolleyes:

[MacRumorUser]

As others have said this is disappointing, but it's just they've taken the opportunity of introducing the new machine revision whilst they can - completely afresh.

It's going to get more hassle when it starts streaming these machines into the USA & Japan where person A can play a ps2 game and yet person B with a newer machine cant....

At least in Europe there will be a parity between units.


As I have already said in this thread though, most of the European launch buyers wont even know of this and 'if' they are buying a PS3 in expectance of full PS2 backward compatibility, then they will be rightly justified in there anger.

Whilst compatibility is not the 360 strong point, the point is.... At least microsoft said from the outset that only some of its titles will be backwards compatible.

All of Sony's main marketing has been on Full Backwards Compatibility, and it was one of the main reasons it claimed it was 'superior' to the competition.

So it's perfectly understandable why people should think Sony are shi**ing on them from a great height.

Sony created the spin and the promises. It's not the consumers fault they have become cynical and highly skeptic over Sony.

2 HDMI, 2 Ethernet, Every game Full 1080p HD, Full Backwards Compatability.... All of these things they have reneged on to some extent.


Do I think the console is a piece of crap, No I really like my PS3, but that's not the issue.

Do I 'trust' or 'belive' when a single word of the Spin and crap that comes out of Sony HQ... NO I DONT!

Say what you will about M$ but at least they havent 'over promised' and underdelivered as much as Sony has this generation. They were criticised for showing games at E3 2005 on beta machines, but if anything it made the final results more of a surprise. They didnt have to 'make a cgi movie and pretend it's real' crap that Sony pulled with Killzone and Motorstorm.

If Sony are recieveing a cold reception from people, then it's their own complacency at fault and not the consumer.


All being said, do I think Sony will shrug it off. Yes they will and they will more than likely still be in the lead at the end of this console generations lifespan but.....

As much as people are becoming skeptical of every sony act now, if they dont rebuild trust in the consumer over the next 5 years, the PS4 may well be met with more public apathy than Sony could ever realise.

[raggedjimmi]

Does this mean I need to revive my "Sony are teh d00m3d" thread.......:rolleyes:

Rather than trying to sound asinine, what's your view on Sony taking out a chip that will play games from the 2 most popular home consoles of the last 10 years and still have the balls to say "to make it cheaper" whilst still charging more?

And for the record - I've never liked Nintendo's console backwards compatibility prior to the Wii (100% b/c with no requirement to buy a accessory to transfer saves across :D ). Crappy mistake on their behalf. Taking it out of the Micro was an even more retarded mistake.

[darkwing]

If Sony are recieveing a cold reception from people, then it's their own complacency at fault and not the consumer.

If Sony's smart, they'll test every single game there is and make sure the emu plays them just like they did with the original PS3. If it comes out that it plays them, and they can add some filtering/AA/etc then frankly, they'll actually be able to turn this whole thing in their favor. Of course, they aren't that smart.

I think they feel the brand will sell itself.

[MacRumorUser]

I think they feel the brand will sell itself.

That's the problem with Sony period.

[Coded-Dude]

This probably means the EE chip is gone, which is better for us in the long run.

Also....they are taking pro-active steps to remedy this issue with software emulation.
Whilst this may be a minor inconvenience for Europeans, it will not last forever.
Sony doesn't promise BC and then slowly but surely walk away from it hoping loyal consumers will forget the false promises....like other companies

There will be a website available on launch date with a list of ALL games that work, and will update as often as they update the firmware.
This just means Europeans are stuck with their PS2 hardware for a little longer than anticipated.

[EDIT]for those that want the direct info:
London, 23 February 2007 – Sony Computer Entertainment Europe (SCEE) today announced that PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3™) to be launched in Europe, Middle East, Africa and Australasia on 23rd March 2007 would utilise a new hardware specification.

The European PS3 will feature the Cell Broadband Engine™, 60 GB hard disc drive, Blu-ray Disc player, built-in Wi-Fi connectivity, SIXAXIS™ wireless controller. It also embodies a new combination of hardware and software emulation which will enable PS3 to be compatible with a broad range of original PlayStation® (PS) titles and a limited range of PlayStation®2 (PS2) titles.

“PS3 is first and foremost a system that excels in playing games specifically designed to exploit the power and potential of the PS3 system,” said David Reeves, President of SCEE. “Games designed for PS3 offer incredible graphics quality, stunning gameplay and massively improved audio and video fidelity that is simply not achievable with PS and PS2 games. Rather than concentrate on PS2 backwards compatibility, in the future, company resources will be increasingly focused on developing new games and entertainment features exclusively for PS3, truly taking advantage of this exciting technology.”

Some additional PS2 titles will become compatible on the PS3 system through regular downloadable firmware updates, which will be made available through the PLAYSTATION®Network, from http://www.playstation.com or via PS3 game discs, with the first update planned for the launch date of the 23rd March 2007.

Users will be able to check whether their titles are compatible with PS3 at http://faq.eu.playstation.com/bc. This site will be available on 23rd March to meet launch day.

1. A device compatible with Linear PCM 7.1 Ch is required to output 7.1 ch audio, supported by Dolby TrueHD or a similar format, from the HDMI OUT connector.

2. This system does not support output from the DTS-HD 7.1 Ch. DTS-HD 7.1 Ch audio is output from a 5.1 or lower channel.

3. Usability of all storage media types is not guaranteed.

4. Certain PlayStation 2 format software titles may not perform properly on this system. Visit faq.eu.playstation.com/bc for the latest information regarding compatible titlessource (http://www.scee.presscentre.com/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=4331&NewsAreaID=2)

Not much in there about a more expensive machine....

[darkwing]

C-D, the same was said for the US release. The firmware updates allowed games that needed the HDD to run, for example.

[Coded-Dude]

Yes, and Sony has made progress with BC on NA/JPN machines.
*no more jaggies*

I'm sure they just got software emulation running the way they'd like, with minimal game support.
Rather than wait for a fully functioning app, they can save money by losing some support and removing some hardware....but not forever.
Now all they have to do is continue to add games that aren't yet compatible.

[darkwing]

Yes, and Sony has made progress with BC on NA/JPN machines.
*no more jaggies*

I'm sure they just got software emulation running the way they'd like, with minimal game support.
Rather than wait for a fully functioning app, they can save money by losing some support and removing some hardware....but not forever.
Now all they have to do is continue to add games that aren't yet compatible.

Theoretically, if the emu is perfect and implements their TRC rules correctly, everything should run. Getting to that point can be difficult though. :)

[gloss]

If Sony's smart, they'll test every single game there is and make sure the emu plays them just like they did with the original PS3. If it comes out that it plays them, and they can add some filtering/AA/etc then frankly, they'll actually be able to turn this whole thing in their favor. Of course, they aren't that smart.

I think they feel the brand will sell itself.

I concur. But damn, they need to hire some new customer relations staff, stat. These current folks should be working at Volkswagen dealerships.

[Coded-Dude]

Yes, they may have a performance issue, or maybe they are still debugging some of their code that is restricting 100% B/C, that much is anybodies guess.

But I am certain they will remedy the issue sooner than later.

[darkwing]

I concur. But damn, they need to hire some new customer relations staff, stat. These current folks should be working at Volkswagen dealerships.

Now I'm not VW fan, but what does this comment refer to? Let the rest of us in on it. :)

[gloss]

Now I'm not VW fan, but what does this comment refer to? Let the rest of us in on it. :)

At least where I'm located, Volkswagen is notorious for having very nicely designed, (initially) solid cars accompanied by borderline malevolent customer care. Once you purchase the car, you're dirt to the dealership.

[islandman]

XBox 360 all the way!

[Coded-Dude]

XBox 360 all the way!
In all its B/C glory! :rolleyes:

[zelmo]

In all its B/C glory! :rolleyes:

I only have a handful of Xbox games I want to keep to play on my 360, but none are B/C yet [or they weren't last time I checked the list]. I think I'll have that ugly black box hooked up forever.:rolleyes:

[MacRumorUser]

^ But in fairness. Microsoft never promised that they would be ;)

Backwards compatbility for me is non entity anyway. Well I play Okami & look forward to GOW2 on my PS3, but other than that I dont play really any last gen games these days.

[bluebomberman]

Since when has any business operated on ethics over economics? :rolleyes:

Craigslist? :o

[LukeW]

Since when has any business operated on ethics over economics? :rolleyes:

Sadly a true point, and is probably the reason why I dont make much money! :p

[e²Studios]

Craigslist? :o

Considering how much they sold themselves to ebay for i dont think so :) They also charge to post houses and jobs in some markets. Its all about making money to corporations, welcome to a capitalist society :p

[bluebomberman]

Considering how much they sold themselves to ebay for i dont think so :) They also charge to post houses and jobs in some markets. Its all about making money to corporations, welcome to a capitalist society :p

Yeah, but they've resisted ads on their site, which is almost unheard of in this day and age.

Back on topic: is the price differential between US and European consoles as extravagant for the Wii & 360 versus the PS3?

[Coded-Dude]

^ But in fairness. Microsoft never promised that they would be ;)

Backwards compatbility for me is non entity anyway. Well I play Okami & look forward to GOW2 on my PS3, but other than that I dont play really any last gen games these days.

O'Rly? ;)

Back in May 16th 2005, Microsoft said in an interview with C|Net News that: “Backward-compatibility is not the reason people buy a new system,” said David Hufford, Microsoft Xbox group product manager. “The perception is that it is significant. We’ve put all our energy into new titles, but since our consumers have asked for it… we’ve made it a goal to make all titles backward-compatible.”

This goal was repeated by Microsoft on May 19th 2005, in an interview with GamesIndustry saying: “At launch, Xbox 360 will be backward compatible with the top Xbox games,” said Xbox PR manager Michael Wolf. “Our goal is to have every Xbox game work on Xbox 360. You will NOT need to purchase a new ‘version’ - your original games will work on Xbox 360.”

Xbox 360 Video Game System (Fully-Loaded)During the November 22nd, 2005, system launch in the US, Microsoft announced the first wave of backwards compatible games would be the “top selling Xbox games.” Just before Christmas that year support for Ubisoft’s Splinter Cell and Rainbow Six was added. Late March 2006, alongside a series of performance tweaks for already enabled games, they added support for BLACK, Star Wars: Battlefront II and World Soccer Winning Eleven 9.

Then out of nowhere on May 31st 2006, in an interview with Kikizo, corporate VP of Microsoft’s interactive entertainment business and entertainment and devices division Peter Moore is quoted: “Nobody is concerned anymore about backwards compatibility. We under promised and over delivered on that. It’s a very complicated thing… very complex work. I’m just stunned that we have hundreds of games that are backwards compatible,” he said. “more are coming, but at some point, you just go, there’s enough, let’s move on, or people aren’t as worried about a game being backwards compatible - and I like to think we’ve upheld our end of the bargain in making at least two or maybe three hundred games backwards compatible.”source (http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2006/06/02/microsoft-stops-further-xbox-backwards-compatibility-soon.htm)

People aren't worried, but they will sure as hell flame Sony into more negative PR, if they take the "MS route."

[MacRumorUser]

read it again. He said they 'aimed' to or had a 'goal to achieve'.

It did not say 'THEY ARE FULLY BACKWARD COMPATIBLE' as Sony did & promised on a myriad of public events ;)

Microsoft at all stages has produced a list of games, and you have to remember for months & months prior to the console release it asked consumers directly 'what titles do you want to see made backwards compatible', and for the most part got a lot of them. But by doing so it made itself perfectly clear that NOT ALL games will work.

Where as Sony led consumers to believe ALL PS2 games will be backwards compatbile and used that retoric as 1 upmanship against M$.

[Coded-Dude]

Sony never promised they wouldn't lose some support either.....but they get a new arse for trying to cut overall costs.
Just pointing out the irony in the negative spin

[raggedjimmi]

I thought the irony was that in order to cut costs for consumers they are infact charging us more? $599 does not equal £430, even with tax added on it's still $96 more. Or is the $96 the privilege we pay for no PS2 chip? :)
Isn't that the price of a PS2 in America?

[MacRumorUser]

Sony never promised they wouldn't lose some support either.....but they get a new arse for trying to cut overall costs.
Just pointing out the irony in the negative spin

I just think they should have done this a long the line when they are sure the emulator is working very well and not left it for Europeans to find out the hard way.

M$ unlike both Sony & Nintendo have treated Europe very well this generation.

You cant blame Europeans who are already peeved over countless delays an broken promises for being a little down on them, that's all.



Either way regardless the PS3 European launch will be a success.


edit: I'd still be more interested to see how USA & Japan take this revision. When one person can play a ps2 game and their friend cant.. That's going to be far harder to justify. Trust me the poop aint even got close to the fan yet.....

[mkaake]

Just a quick observation... after deleting a post that would have brought forth a lot of flames...

It's pretty funny reading through this thread... because of the blatant Sony fanboyism. I knew it would happen as soon as I read the thread... no matter what happens, you'll have one or two show up instantly saying "Here we ago again - anything to tarnish Sony's reputation", and then the snide remarks about teh d00med, etc.

All the while, people were just talking about how upset they were about a feature being removed. But it's made to sound like everyone started a thread to bash Sony, because Sony is good and great.

But my favorite part was where people started defending the move, with catchy sayings like: streamlined, and "I wish mine didn't have built in PS2 emulation", and "it's not important anyway - and besides, LOOK AT THE 360!!".

I guess my observation is more to the tune that if you guys stepped back and read some of these posts objectively, you'd get a different idea of who the real fanboys are...

[-M7-]

Why is the list of BC games released on launch day? :rolleyes:

I bet that the list is awfully short and that Sony just waits until the last moment before the european customers realize that they were screwed.
The bad news will be downplayed by the launch hype covering.

No need to defend Sony here. At least they should lower the price of the unit, if they remove a $30 chip. (Emotion Engine)

[raggedjimmi]

It happens mkaake, I remember when they announced the controller wouldn't have rumble and you'd get the fanboys claiming rumble was rubbish anyways. But only at that moment of course.

[MacRumorUser]

Why is the list of BC games released on launch day? :rolleyes:

I bet that the list is awfully short and that Sony just waits until the last moment before the european customers realize that they were screwed.
The bad news will be downplayed by the launch hype covering.

No need to defend Sony here. At least they should lower the price of the unit, if they remove a $30 chip. (Emotion Engine)

Problem I see it is that the magazines that are the main source of info for most people wont see this information printed until their April / May issue, which is a week or two after the PS3 has already launced.

So most people will be blissfully unaware the machine they have just spent €650 in Ireland and £430 in the UK is not the 'whole hog' as once they were promised.



It happens mkaake, I remember when they announced the controller wouldn't have rumble and you'd get the fanboys claiming rumble was rubbish anyways. But only at that moment of course.

I really miss the rumble. It's amazing how hollow some gaming experiences are without it. I'm hoping Logitech release a beautiful ergonomic wireless pad 'with' rumble, because the Sixaxis controller feels too light, too flimsy and too clunky IMHO,

[gloss]

But my favorite part was where people started defending the move, with catchy sayings like: streamlined, and "I wish mine didn't have built in PS2 emulation", and "it's not important anyway - and besides, LOOK AT THE 360!!".

lol

[michaelltd]

Just a quick observation... after deleting a post that would have brought forth a lot of flames...

It's pretty funny reading through this thread... because of the blatant Sony fanboyism. I knew it would happen as soon as I read the thread... no matter what happens, you'll have one or two show up instantly saying "Here we ago again - anything to tarnish Sony's reputation", and then the snide remarks about teh d00med, etc.

All the while, people were just talking about how upset they were about a feature being removed. But it's made to sound like everyone started a thread to bash Sony, because Sony is good and great.

But my favorite part was where people started defending the move, with catchy sayings like: streamlined, and "I wish mine didn't have built in PS2 emulation", and "it's not important anyway - and besides, LOOK AT THE 360!!".

I guess my observation is more to the tune that if you guys stepped back and read some of these posts objectively, you'd get a different idea of who the real fanboys are...


lol, I noticed that too, and it continues to be the same people. :rolleyes:

Anyways, it's very unfortunate, because when I had planned to get a PS3 in the future, I was going to just get rid of my PS2 from my setup like I did the GameCube when I got a Wii. I guess I'll have to hang on to it..

[darkwing]

But my favorite part was where people started defending the move, with catchy sayings like: streamlined, and "I wish mine didn't have built in PS2 emulation", and "it's not important anyway - and besides, LOOK AT THE 360!!".

Who is saying they wish it didn't have built in PS2 emulation? You sure have to stretch to get your point across. :rolleyes:

And yes, it is streamlined. They want to cut costs and remove those chips and go to the 65 nm process. They're moving towards that goal. Why is it wrong to say it's ok to not have those chips in there if they get the BC working as well as the systems that do have the chips? Is this a "fanboy" comment to say so? You were promised BC, and they'll deliver it. If they don't, then that's another matter altogether.

And for the record, I miss the rumble and wish it was there. I think it sucks Sony didn't want to pay for it.

[zelmo]

Problem I see it is that the magazines that are the main source of info for most people wont see this information printed until their April / May issue, which is a week or two after the PS3 has already launced.

I really miss the rumble. It's amazing how hollow some gaming experiences are without it. I'm hoping Logitech release a beautiful ergonomic wireless pad 'with' rumble, because the Sixaxis controller feels too light, too flimsy and too clunky IMHO,

If I were running a shop, I'd have a sign up on Launch Day listing the PS2 titles that were compatible. At least people would have a shot at knowing what they were buying into.

I can't say that I miss rumble all that much. I thought it was kind of gimmicky to begin with. The only implementation I thought was well done was in MGS, like when your Diazipan [sp??] wore off when you had the sniper rifle. That being said, I think it sucks they decided to drop it. They should have paid the royalty money and saved face.

[darkwing]

lol, I noticed that too, and it continues to be the same people. :rolleyes:

Anyways, it's very unfortunate, because when I had planned to get a PS3 in the future, I was going to just get rid of my PS2 from my setup like I did the GameCube when I got a Wii. I guess I'll have to hang on to it..

I actually decided to keep my PS2. There's no benefit to playing PS2 games on the PS3. Also, if you use HDMI audio, the PS3 still outputs multi-channel audio and my receiver won't let me turn on Pro-Logic IIx. Also, why burn up the hours my PS3 has to live playing games my PS2 can still play?

But yes, I agree with you. It sucks because many people want to sell the PS2 to help pay for a PS3.

If Sony releases the new models and BC is totally broken, then they're going to look pretty stupid and we can make fun of them some more. Hopefully it works well enough and because it's not dependent on those chips we can see some great graphical enhancements for old games. That's my hope.

[darkwing]

If I were running a shop, I'd have a sign up on Launch Day listing the PS2 titles that were compatible. At least people would have a shot at knowing what they were buying into.

I can't say that I miss rumble all that much. I thought it was kind of gimmicky to begin with. The only implementation I thought was well done was in MGS, like when your Diazipan [sp??] wore off when you had the sniper rifle. That being said, I think it sucks they decided to drop it. They should have paid the royalty money and saved face.

The rumble was useless for games. I never actually felt like I needed it. But it was nice to have. I like the real force feedback stuff like joysticks that get harder to manipulate depending on what's going on in the game.

[MacRumorUser]

I've always liked rumble personally. Take a driving game for example, I like how your pad rumbles whilst your driving over a gravelly path and yet on tarmac it gently hums, to me it adds to the gaming experience :)

1 question Darkwing / Ed. H / Coded-Dude etc... ;)

Do you know the march update, will that allow sound through AV as well as dolby digital ? It sucks that its one or the other, the 360 can do both.

Yeah actually thats one of my 3 gripes with the ps3

The audio problem (cant have DolbyDigital and sound to your TV, you have to manually change everytime you want to go from one to the other)

Access to messaging and friends list whilst in a game. Why tell me I have a message when I have to exit my game to see what it is ? Please let me access my messaging in game, oh and let me download in the background so I can enjoy my PS3 whilst downloading stuff from PS Store.

Controller - no rumble, and too light and feels a bit flimsy. The triggers feel very sticky. However.. I dont think we will see rumble because a game has to be programmed for it, so unless Sony release a first party PS3 rumble pad, we wont be seeing it anytime soon.

And errr, Those few things are really my only gripes. Other than that I think its a great console overall and isa great accompniment to my Wii & 360, and there will be some truly mesmorising games to come in the next 12 months.

Whilst I understand people being pissed off about BC, I'm not pushed.

[darkwing]

1 question Darkwing / Ed. H / Coded-Dude etc... ;)

Do you know the march update, will that allow sound through AV as well as dolby digital ? It sucks that its one or the other, the 360 can do both.


No idea. :P I hope so though. When is that firmware coming out anyway?

When I drive my sports car on a rough road, I don't feel the vibration in my hands. I feel it in my butt. (And back!) That's why I don't think rumble adds realism to anything. Again, I miss it and wish it was there.

As far as the controller goes I like it. It's light, but doesn't feel flimsy at all. And I sure don't have sticky triggers. They're actually a little too sensitive for PS2 games that use them like digital buttons.

[Coded-Dude]

Just a quick observation... after deleting a post that would have brought forth a lot of flames...

It's pretty funny reading through this thread... because of the blatant Sony fanboyism. I knew it would happen as soon as I read the thread... no matter what happens, you'll have one or two show up instantly saying "Here we ago again - anything to tarnish Sony's reputation", and then the snide remarks about teh d00med, etc.

All the while, people were just talking about how upset they were about a feature being removed. But it's made to sound like everyone started a thread to bash Sony, because Sony is good and great.

But my favorite part was where people started defending the move, with catchy sayings like: streamlined, and "I wish mine didn't have built in PS2 emulation", and "it's not important anyway - and besides, LOOK AT THE 360!!".

I guess my observation is more to the tune that if you guys stepped back and read some of these posts objectively, you'd get a different idea of who the real fanboys are...

what? like people who make off topic posts about fanboyism...yeah I know
"DEFENDING THE MOVE" - so you still think its a bad idea to lose some B/C short term in order to gain more B/C long term and cut overall production costs?
I'm sure glad you not working for Sony.....:p
It may not be the most ideal "setup" for EU/UK early adapters, but its better for EVERYONE long term. This was a sound business decision based on many factors we don't even know about.
[sarcasm] Oh wait! No its not...its just Sony enjoying the fact that they get to give Europeans the shaft one more time, Its why they started out as a company you know. :rolleyes:


btw -PS3's were not the same price in JPN or NA at launch, why then would you automatically expect the same price in EU/UK?
They said it would be expensive, and it is. If you can't afford it now, wait for a price drop, and if you STILL want to complain.....thats fine, but expect retorts.
(this is a forum isn't it?)

Its easy to take a press release from a company and put some PR spin on it.....
(thats what news companies do, especially internet companies)
But it's even easier to post that negative PR on forums and bitch about how evil said company is for allegedly "screwing" over consumers.
Even though many of the people bitching, just enjoy antagonizing others with so called "negative" publicity. The fact is many people bashing it don't even care about the actual information, they just want a reason to "hate."

Honestly, I don't even have to read posts to determine who supports who(fanboyism, if thats what you want to call everyone), I can see it as soon as I read the thread title...

[darkwing]

I just had another thought on this topic. Do you think any of this has to do with the fact the Euro PS3s are PAL? Perhaps there was some issue integrating the PS2 pal chipset for some reason? I don't know much about that stuff. If that turns out to be the case, and that is something Sony would try to keep secret, then it isn't like that the American/Japanese versions will see the chip removal.

I personally don't care as long as we someday get an emulator that does upscaling/AA.

[MacRumorUser]

I just had another thought on this topic. Do you think any of this has to do with the fact the Euro PS3s are PAL? Perhaps there was some issue integrating the PS2 pal chipset for some reason?

No it was simply seen as a good opportunity to intrduce the revised machine into a territory htat doesnt have the old model so people generally couldnt compare.

[gkarris]

MS did it right (again).... they didn't want to hold back the 360 by being 100% compatible with the XBox, hence the whole architecture change (Pentium to PPC). They decided to make some games compatible through software.

If you are still really interested in playing old games, why not on the original console? (I'm a videogame collector and it is MORE FUN to play on the original console with the original controllers).

Heck the Wii has ports for the old controller and memory cards for the Gamecube....

Sony, IMHO, is seeing this. If you want to play the older games, why not on a cheap PS2?

They don't want to be held back anymore either...

[darkwing]

No it was simply seen as a good opportunity to intrduce the revised machine into a territory htat doesnt have the old model so people generally couldnt compare.

We have the Internet to compare things now... so I guess if that's the reason, it's a bad one. :P Of course, they can always argue the differences are in the regional versions.

If the PS3 comes out and the emulator runs great, then it's a good business decision and will probably help them because they can point out all the naysayers were just that -- naysayers. Of course, if it comes out and only plays 2 games, then they'll have even more egg on their face.

[LukeW]

Heck the Wii has ports for the old controller and memory cards for the Gamecube....

Sony, IMHO, is seeing this. If you want to play the older games, why not on a cheap PS2?

They don't want to be held back anymore either...

Exactly, the Wii was sold with one of the features being that it could play Gamecube games, which it does perfectly. The XBox360 was launched with MS saying that they could emulate some of the old games but not all of them. Gamers where happy until MS turned around and said they had finished releasing patches to run old software. The backlash made them quickly do a 180 and resume the patching. Sony came right out the gate boasting that "the PS3 will run ALL the games from the PS2 and PS1 back catalogue, unlike that silly ol' XBox 360 whose owners are limited to what games they can play, what suckers, not like our machine eh fellas!" and so the world rejoiced. If they did not want to be held back, why go through the whole song and dance, why bother installing the feature in a couple of million units and then decide to pull it out again, why that would be to save some money because looking at current PS3 sales from America and Japan I get the feeling they know they are gonna have to do a big price drop very very soon.
So to conclude, those who are mocking Sony are not doing it because we hate Sony (most of us anyway) for I own a PS2 and am most happy with it. We are mocking Sony because they are constantly announcing stuff they then fail to deliver on again and again and again and its making the Playstation 3, however good it may play games, a laughing stock and frankly making potential future owners like me incredibly nervous about investing in one.

[Phobophobia]

Nintendo is set to sell 6 million Wiis by March. Screw Microsoft and Sony.

[zap2]

ld. If anything, you have the "newest model" over there.



Glad Sony knows best...I would think they are getting a bad deal, more money and it does less stuff, but if its the "newest" model, Sony must have had our interests at heard...I sure hope America+Japan get the new PS3 soon!

[darkwing]

Glad Sony knows best...I would think they are getting a bad deal, more money and it does less stuff, but if its the "newest" model, Sony must have had our interests at heard...I sure hope America+Japan get the new PS3 soon!

Your sarcasm and lack of intelligence are noted. ;)

I'll reiterate for the 500th time. If this causes Sony to make an emulator that improves the look of older games like MS did on the 360, then I'm all for it. If it just breaks BC and they never do anything about it, then it's another stupid mistake on their part. It's a good business decision to cut costs, but not if that screws the customer. We'll just have to see which occurs. Nobody knows right now.

[sikkinixx]

Nintendo is set to sell 6 million Wiis by March. Screw Microsoft and Sony.

Glad to see people on this forum know how to contribute a relevant commment :rolleyes:



This is a good move by Sony to cut costs, and it is what they planned but it is silly to start it NOW with the Euro release with customers (or lack thereof) that are already annoyed at being over charged 4 months after everyone else. They better hope that most poplular games work with it or else...

[raggedjimmi]

Hopefully it will be better than the 360's individual compatibility. Some kind of collection of umbrella emulators to cover huge numbers of games would be ideal. They really should have stuck a scaling chip in there :o then all of this would not have been necessary. As people keep saying, why doesn't the Wii have AA and other resizing effects on the VC just "as my PC can do them" when PS1 on PS3 doesn't do the same.

[MacRumorUser]

^ probably not. Let's face it, nothing they have said so far has been vastly superior to the 360 - why would backwards compatbility ? :o

[raggedjimmi]

^ probably not. Let's face it, nothing they have said so far has been vastly superior to the 360 - why would backwards compatbility ? :o

Well surely with the Cell CPU it could emulate consoles from 1996-ish and 2001-ish in one fell swoop?

[darkwing]

Hopefully it will be better than the 360's individual compatibility. Some kind of collection of umbrella emulators to cover huge numbers of games would be ideal. They really should have stuck a scaling chip in there :o then all of this would not have been necessary. As people keep saying, why doesn't the Wii have AA and other resizing effects on the VC just "as my PC can do them" when PS1 on PS3 doesn't do the same.

Both the Wii and PS3 are powerful enough to do AA on older games. It's all up to the developers and what they want to do.

Oh, and there is a scaling chip in the PS3. It's been discussed in several threads. Of course, some can't afford to acquire such knowledge.

[Coded-Dude]

Some people still don't get it........*sighs*
There are no loss of features with this "new" model; as it was ALWAYS Sony's plan to remove the EE+GS chip and emulate with software to cut production costs.
They are merely changing the way they deliver said feature....its not going away.

[MacRumorUser]

....its not going away.

It just probably wont be very good. ;)

[Coded-Dude]

Really?
Now they can be 100% B/C and add upscaling, anti-aliasing, and other features to improve upon older titles

[2nyRiggz]

360 or PS3 emulation is not top...Nintendo got this one for sure. If what Coded-Dude saying is true then I don't see this as a big deal...so what if they are removing the chip(to cut their cost) but STILL supporting emulation...whats the big mess up?



Bless

[darkwing]

It just probably wont be very good. ;)

Europe's getting what it deserves, then. :P

[Coded-Dude]

It looks like the GS is staying for now, although they did take out the EE and are now emulating it.
GS is probably harder to emulate, but they will get it soon enough.
Also, expect PS1 enhancements since it is working with 100% software emulation.
PS2 enhancements may be a little farther out.....but I am just speculating now.

Following PlayStation’s recent announcement regarding backward compatibility, Three Speech is endeavouring to get as many of your questions answered as possible.

Appreciate that this doesn’t exactly get to the bottom of some of your more pressing questions, but this is all the information that we have been able to get our hands on. We’ll continue to push for more information throughout the day.

Here are the first of the responses, following a conversation Three Speech had with Sony:

People weren’t expecting this announcement. Surely we have the right to know the number of PAL supported games before the launch?

We have been assessing the extent of backward compatibility, and will continue to do so right up until launch. It is therefore not possible to provide a specific number of backwards compatible titles at this stage, but close to launch consumers will be able to check whether their titles are compatible with PS3 by looking at the list of compatible titles at http://faq.eu.playstation.com/bc. This site will be available on 23rd March to meet launch day.

Does this mean that the PS2 hardware chips have been removed completely and replaced with software-only emulation?

The original PS3 used the Emotion Engine/Graphics Synthesiser to emulate PS2 titles. With the latest European specification we have removed the Emotion Engine, retaining the graphics chip. This has an impact on the number of PS2 titles that will be backwards compatible.

If this is a business decision to save cost, why are users left to bear the burden, having to purchase a system inferior to those sold in the US and Japan at a higher price?

The PS3 launching in Europe is every bit as powerful as the PS3s available currently in North America and Japan. PS3 is defined by key features such as the CELL broadband engine, its Blu-ray drive, the SIXAXIS Controller and its ability to output full 1080P HD game content which makes it an entertainment system for the future, without equal.

PS one titles remain backwards compatible and we will continue to assess the compatibility of PS2 titles right up until launch We will continue to offer firmware upgrades to increase the number of titles that are compatible, but rather than concentrate on PS2 backwards compatibility, in the future, company resources will be increasingly focused on developing new games and entertainment features exclusively for PS3, truly taking advantage of this exciting technology.

How will consumers be able to tell the difference between the fully compatible launch model available in America and Japan and the new degraded model?

On the external packaging of the PS3 there will be a small ‘PAL’ logo to denote that the PS3 is built for the European market (North American and Japanese models have a ‘NTSC’ logo). The model number will also appear on the label stuck to the top flap of the PS3 packaging (beginning CECHC followed by two digits – see below).

In addition, each PS3 carries a barcode and serial number on the back of the system. At the end of the unique serial number for each console is the model number. In the SCEE territories there are four model numbers:

Europe: CECHC04
UK and Ireland: CECHC03
Australia/New Zealand: CECHC02
Russia/India: CECHC08

Will the new updated hardware version improve the quality of the images of PS2 games on the PS3, as the current crop have been highly criticised?

This has already been achieved by a firmware upgrade, which will be incorporated in European launch models