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ZeeOwl
Jun 1, 2003, 07:57 AM
Here's a translation from French by your's truly, of the latest G4 rumour from MacBidouille.

"According to an internal source (thank-you Superced) Motorola has started producing 0.09 Ám chips in their Crolles 1 plant.

That's all we know, but if Motorola manages to produce G4s this small, they might be able to re-enter the frequency race.

It would be difficult to catch up with the PPC 970 in brute force, but a 0.09 Ám G4 running at 2 GHz would be an excellent replacement for the G3 in Apple's consumer line, particularily in the iBook.

It remains to be seen whether Apple would be willing to overlook their differences [with Motorola], and accept working with them towards a common future.

If we follow Motorola's Roadmap (which they rarely follow themselves), the 0.09 Ám G4s would be the 7457-RMs (originally slated for production in 0.1 Ám) which incorporate Rapid-IO to maximize memory bandwidth, the current G4's Achilles heel."

For those who read French, here's the original article:
http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-06-01#5682



The Shadow
Jun 1, 2003, 08:06 AM
Too little, too late (IMHO)

And if you were Apple, would you bet your next house on them when they lost you your last house?

job
Jun 1, 2003, 08:08 AM
I can see it now....

"1.8Ghz_G4_towers.."

"Available late September." ;)

Let the riots begin.

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 09:09 AM
Maybe the 970 will provide Moto with some real incentive to compete in its chip division, since it obviously doesn't see Intel as a competitor (too bad its buyer is too painfully aware that it is).

We might see a bit of a PowerPC MHz race in the next two years -- yay!

PS. there's no reason Apple has to ditch Moto -- they can buy from both IBM and Moto -- in fact, they split the suppliers today as it is (with the G3 and G4).

Anyway, we'll find out soon enough. Today it's June and three weeks away lies the answer.

ZeeOwl
Jun 1, 2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by job
I can see it now....

"1.8Ghz_G4_towers.."

"Available late September." ;)

Let the riots begin.

Lol. Well I wouldn't riot, but I sure as **** wouldn't by one! lol More likely wait for the IBM 2Ghz 750GX to come out and upgrade my B&W again. :D

I agree with MacBidouille on one thing. This would be interesting news for the consumer line if Motorola can deliver. And if they can't, no sweat. IBM will have the 750GX out within a year. They can easily slap on an AltiVec unit (they already did this with the PPC 970), and presto, instant G4. And I'm sure Motorola is quite aware of this possibility... hehe

job
Jun 1, 2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
We might see a bit of a PowerPC MHz race in the next two years -- yay!

That would be nice.

Look at how the competition in the x86 market between AMD and Intel drove chip speeds higher and higher.

Competition like that in the PPC arena can only mean good things for us Mac users.

pseudobrit
Jun 1, 2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by job
That would be nice.

Look at how the competition in the x86 market between AMD and Intel drove chip speeds higher and higher.

Competition like that in the PPC arena can only mean good things for us Mac users.

The problem may have been systemic from the AIM alliance in the first place. No competition within the alliance, no need to be the best, just as long as everyone gets along.

So maybe Apple's doing the smart thing by playing the chipmakers off of each other. Now if only they has a pool larger than 2 to pick from...

MacRumors
Jun 1, 2003, 12:18 PM
MacBidouille's latest report (http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-06-01#5682) provides some potential Motorola information.

ZeeOwl again provides translation:


According to an internal source (thank-you Superced) Motorola has started producing 0.09 Ám chips in their Crolles 1 plant.


The go on to speculate the implications of this...


That's all we know, but if Motorola manages to produce G4s this small, they might be able to re-enter the frequency race.

It would be difficult to catch up with the PPC 970 in brute force, but a 0.09 Ám G4 running at 2 GHz would be an excellent replacement for the G3 in Apple's consumer line, particularily in the iBook.

It remains to be seen whether Apple would be willing to overlook their differences [with Motorola], and accept working with them towards a common future.

If we follow Motorola's Roadmap (which they rarely follow themselves), the 0.09 Ám G4s would be the 7457-RMs (originally slated for production in 0.1 Ám) which incorporate Rapid-IO to maximize memory bandwidth, the current G4's Achilles heel.

noverflow
Jun 1, 2003, 12:33 PM
THE ibook ALREADY HAS A g4
IT IS CALLED THE 12in POWERBOOK!!!

untill the 12in pb goes 970, or something else, the ibook will stay at a g3.

i can see it now

well of you look over here we have the ibook g4 and the powerbook 12in

whats the difference?

well one has a slot loading drive, and a metal case.

thats all?

yep... and the powerbook is $500 more.

Freg3000
Jun 1, 2003, 12:35 PM
Sorry, I just don't believe it. Why would Motorola want to make a .09 G4?

job
Jun 1, 2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Freg3000
Sorry, I just don't believe it. Why would Motorola want to make a .09 G4?

Competition from IBM?

visor
Jun 1, 2003, 12:45 PM
It is hard for me to imagine that Apple will push the 970 into all its existing Production lines.

A low noise low powerdrainer would indeed be a good position for the completely outdated g3 in the ibook.
While the current g4's can hardly replace the g3 for heat reasons, the new one might cope better.

As we see the 'i*' +'e*' line of Apple migrating to the G4 anyway, with only the ibook beeing left g3 - it would make sense.

However, I don't see the new g4 in the Power and server line anymore.

Apple is interested in the serious server business, replacing sun et al is the goal - so the 970 might also make up a completely new production line
Render server extreme - or something like that.

Thinking again - the smaller G4 might also make it in the Powerbooks for the time beeing. i really hate that blow dryer in the Pbooks when they are a bit challenged. The new 15" might be the first to receive it.
Yes, if it's true they are already produced, will see it in the 15" Pbook for sure quite soon. It's to early for 970's on mobile platforms.

QCassidy352
Jun 1, 2003, 01:54 PM
It seems to me that Moto dropped the ball because they were no longer interested in being in this market. I'm not sure why they would want to get back in now. There was always money to made if they wanted to devote R+D to it, but they weren't interested because they didn't want to be a chip company. Why would that change?

KEL9000
Jun 1, 2003, 03:11 PM
MOT still makes VME and CPCI Single Board Computers which use the G4. This is in addition to the Embedded Networking Gear. Both of which would benifit from the smaller process. I also don't think apple will be shifting away from G4s in the consumer lines because of the inherent higher cost of a PPC970 system, like super-fast memory. Apple could use the IBM G3+Altivec for a replacement though...

avus
Jun 1, 2003, 03:57 PM
As far as I know, Motorola's shipping (not planned) G4s are stuck at .18 micron process for last few years, creating all kind of heat-related problems for the PowerMac G4. (and I decided to get an iBook as secondary machine instead of a PowerBook G4 12-inch because the latter is SO DARN HOT!)

They kept saying that .13 would be ready "soon," as they had fallen further behind the industry standard. They just couldn't deliver, PERIOD. Can they skip .13 and go right into producing in .09? I don't think they can.

barkmonster
Jun 1, 2003, 04:09 PM
So they're going to half the size of the process in 1 chip revision, double the L2 cache and increase the FSB to 200Mhz (a common feature of the new 74x7 chips) and ramp up the clockspeed to 2Ghz or something. THIS YEAR!!!

:p :D ;)

<<Rubs chin repeatedly>>

Mr.Hey
Jun 1, 2003, 04:18 PM
970 for pro users and the G4 for consumer product.

AndrewMT
Jun 1, 2003, 04:48 PM
Motorola makes a lot of chips for a lot of different purposes. Exactly what percentage of Motorola's chips go to Apple?

Sun Baked
Jun 1, 2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by ZeeOwl
If we follow Motorola's Roadmap (which they rarely follow themselves), the 0.09 Ám G4s would be the 7457-RMs (originally slated for production in 0.1 Ám) which incorporate Rapid-IO to maximize memory bandwidth, the current G4's Achilles heel." I thought this was the processor was s-canned, it was the only processor that could have been called the G5 -- and the rumor mill was talking about the canceling of the G5 project.

The 7457 on the .13 process should be in the mill, the 7455B should have been the major incremental step towards the 7457.

MrMacMan
Jun 1, 2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by job
Competition from IBM?

Urg, apple doesn't sell enough computers to have real competition.

If one is stronger, one wins.
Unless you want to get the consumer confused again.
'Over here we have the 2.0 GHZ iMac' and here we have the more Power Full '1.8 GHZ 970' :eek:

mathiasr
Jun 1, 2003, 08:36 PM
Errr... to my knowledge Crolles (near Grenoble, France) is a research center (memory & process oriented) and not a PowerPC fab.

http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,1308_988_23,00.html

http://www.semiconductor-technology.com/projects/crolles/


Crolles2 presentation in French:
http://www.motorola.com/content/0,,655-1206,00.html

Notice that the rumor states Crolles1 this is about Crolles2.

ouketii
Jun 1, 2003, 08:48 PM
yeeeaahh, i'm doubting motorola is going to ever make any newer chips than the g4

NavyIntel007
Jun 1, 2003, 08:52 PM
That would be COOOL!!!!!

mim
Jun 1, 2003, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by mathiasr
Errr... to my knowledge Crolles (near Grenoble, France) is a research center (memory & process oriented) and not a PowerPC fab.

http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,1308_988_23,00.html


Yup - this even mentions that the 90nm process is for RAM. Doesn't mention G4 or 7457 or anything like that...

Motorola brings to the alliance its portfolio of leading-edge technologies, including SOI (Silicon-on-Insulator) and embedded MRAM technologies as well as its know-how in advanced copper interconnect. This contribution builds upon the existing Philips and ST cooperation for core CMOS processes, which includes embedded DRAM, SRAM and analog CMOS.

I think moto are out of the processor race - for the moment. Their current focus on embedded systems may pay out big time in the next 10 years or so though.

ZeeOwl
Jun 1, 2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by mathiasr
Errr... to my knowledge Crolles (near Grenoble, France) is a research center (memory & process oriented) and not a PowerPC fab

That's quite possible. I have no idea what (or where) the Crolles 1 plant is. I'm just the messenger (translator?). Please don't shoot me. hehe

But to be fair, the MacBidouille article reports that Motorola is producing 0.09 Ám chips at this plant. They do not say what these chips are. In fact, they actually specify that they don't know what they are. They are only speculating that if Motorola is capable of producing 0.09 Ám chips, that they might eventually produce G4s using this process.

Tim Flynn
Jun 2, 2003, 10:21 AM
My guess is the 0.09 is just development work. Not production.
The 7457 is a 0.13 design and where is it. Motorola is having a hard enough time at 0.13 um. I've also heard that nobody will have 0.09 in production 'til into 2004.

Sun Baked
Jun 2, 2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Tim Flynn
My guess is the 0.09 is just development work. Not production.
The 7457 is a 0.13 design and where is it. Motorola is having a hard enough time at 0.13 um. I've also heard that nobody will have 0.09 in production 'til into 2004. I should have caught that when I checked the errata and qualification reports, but went based on the numbers in the first post. :(

Motorola has been having a tough time with the complex G4 throughout all the different process scaling nodes.

Dont Hurt Me
Jun 2, 2003, 05:30 PM
Motorola will be the last to get there, Whats new, the 970 is giving them a kick in the a-- and i have a feeling there will be many customers looking at the 970 and what IT can do vs G4's stuck,no developement stagnating crap! Motorola should get out of building chips if its heart isnt in it. Sad it took our beloved mac( steve) so darn long to figure this out.

Flynnstone
Jun 2, 2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Motorola will be the last to get there.

I have to agree.
Most of Motorola's product goes into embedded. 68K, ColdFire, HC11s, HC12s etc. I think those are definitely bigger than 0.18 um.

mim
Jun 2, 2003, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Flynnstone
I have to agree.
Most of Motorola's product goes into embedded. 68K, ColdFire, HC11s, HC12s etc. I think those are definitely bigger than 0.18 um.

Well, as not necessarily - as per the links posted on the last page (can't remember who it was...) thet certainly seem to have the will and resources to make it to 90nm and below quite quickly....but just not for their processors.

Rather than procs this may mean that we could be getting some quite nicely dense memory soon, developed from these partnerships of Moto's.

Flynnstone
Jun 2, 2003, 09:11 PM
Just in.. from Electronics News

Motorola Volume Ships Low-K MPUs


Online staff -- Electronic News, 6/2/2003


Motorola Inc. has reversed its low-k plans, today announcing volume MPU shipments of low-k insulating dielectric during the metallization process on 0.18-micron SOI, instead of its targeted 0.13-micron node.

Doing so allowed the Texas giant to begin shipping products manufactured at the 0.18 micron SOI process in Q1. Motorola still has plans to ship at 0.13-micron later this year, the company said.

Products manufactured at 0.18-micron, meanwhile, run up to 20 percent faster and at lower power than those made without it while maintaining high yields and reliability, Motorola claimed, withholding specifics. So far, the process has been applied to Motorola's PowerPC microprocessor products including the G4 PowerPC processor, Motorola's MPC 7455 and the recently introduced 7457.

"Motorola has developed several novel approaches to overcome the technical challenges associated with successfully integrating a low-k dielectric into its metallization process," Suresh Venkatesan, director of CMOS development in Motorola's Digital DNA labs, said in a statement. "The process utilizes a hydrogenated silicon oxycarbide (SICOH) film. While many semiconductor manufacturers are researching ways to implement SICOH-based solutions, Motorola was among the first to get volume microprocessor production to the marketplace using this SICOH process."

Motorola produced these products on 200mm wafers at its MOS-13 wafer fab in Austin.

I thought the 7457 was on 0.13
:confused:

skunk
Jun 3, 2003, 05:37 AM
Also, check out www.theregister.co.uk for more news on MOTO's chips.

Sun Baked
Jun 3, 2003, 06:46 AM
> Flynnstone

There were some hints and leaks that the 7455B was going to be testing out a bunch of the 7457s process.

Probably why the 7455B chip is going through so many revisions.

Well probably be getting rev 3.4 7455Bs or later chips in the next batch of speed bumps -- that is if Apple is running the 3.3s right now.

---

If that's the case the 7457s should be around the corner, unless they hit another brick wall when FABing the .13 chips.

admford
Jun 3, 2003, 09:18 AM
Actually, i heard that IBM will be making new G3's with Alitivec soon...

mathiasr
Jun 3, 2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Sun Baked
There were some hints and leaks that the 7455B was going to be testing out a bunch of the 7457s process.

Probably why the 7455B chip is going through so many revisions.
It looks like the 7455A is not dead, 7455 rev F is the current one:

http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/PCN8661.htm

Dont Hurt Me
Jun 3, 2003, 04:39 PM
Say what you may but motorola has hurt apple this past few years from stagnation. Its Great they finally got off their A-- and are making this advancement but when you look at the 970 vs g4(even 7457) the 970 is going to be way out in front. Motorola finally finding the clutch and shifting gears. Too little to late.

DaveGee
Jun 3, 2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by mathiasr
It looks like the 7455A is not dead, 7455 rev F is the current one:

http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/PCN8661.htm

I don't give a rats rump what MOT says... In my eyes (and many others) the G4 is indeed DEAD it's just that someone forgot to tell MOT. :p :D