Apple Lowers Prices on PowerBooks...12" and 15" [Archive]

jxyama

Jun 2, 2003, 08:09 AM

Previous prices were $1,799 for 12", $2,299 for 15"... The new prices are very close, if not exactly the same as, the educational departmental (i.e. not individual ed.) prices.

With 12", you can now basically get the SuperDrive for free... Kinda nice.

AppleMatt: Why not hold on to your 12"?
Do you really need whatever gets added? If you get obsessive about your machine being top of the line, you are gonna be spending quite a bit of $$$.

[babble]
But I know the feeling... I've had my 12" since Feb. and it's a little "sad" to see prices drop and/or new features added.

...Not really, though, 4 months worth of fun using the machine is certainly worth the $200 price difference... And I'd probably be more upset if I had waited this long, pay $1,599 for one now and then see it update next month... Maybe. (This was my first Mac so until I had purchased one, I wouldn't have followed MacRumors. So I wouldn't have learned about upcoming(?) updates.)
[\babble]

solvs

Jun 2, 2003, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by AppleMatt
So what should I do with my 12" PowerBook? Sell it when and buy a new, improved 12" PowerBook? How much do I stand to lose?

AppleMatt

Hang on to it. It should be good for awhile. Unless you have to have the latest and greatest, or can justify the expense, it should be ok until something really cool (preferably cheaper) comes along. By then, you'll have gottten plenty of use out of your P'Book and it won't be $$$ lost.

Moxiemike

Jun 2, 2003, 08:28 AM

Hm. Wondering if i should now ditch my 667 tibook, rev b and get a 12 inch PB.

Hmmmm... decisions decisions....

Nutzoids

Jun 2, 2003, 08:35 AM

This is a very good sign that nothing but good things will be coming from WWDC later this month...The excitment is building!

Caravaggio

Jun 2, 2003, 08:39 AM

.....unconfirmed rumors of 15" PowerBook event in June.

How about a Desktop Event?!

JediMacster

Jun 2, 2003, 08:39 AM

Their numbers are waning...

My iBook served me well, alas its time has come...

Soon the PB 15" 970 will be mine... my own... MY PRECIOUS! :D

hvfsl

Jun 2, 2003, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Hm. Wondering if i should now ditch my 667 tibook, rev b and get a 12 inch PB.

Hmmmm... decisions decisions....

I was thinking the same since I have a 550 version, but looking at the differences in screen sizes I will only upgrade to a 15in Powerbook or maybe the 14in ibook if it gets a faster cpu (1ghz or more) and a better graphics card (at least geforce 4go 440 or radeon 9000m. I will wait and see what WWDC brings.

Tommy!

Jun 2, 2003, 08:45 AM

I got my $1799 12" model through dartmouth, and only paid $1499. That means that with the discount, these things are now $1299 through dartmouth! who would not buy one!?! an insane deal! (figuring they keep the same price reductions at the dartmouth store...)

iwantanewmac

Jun 2, 2003, 08:46 AM

Don't hold your breath for a 970 powerbook.
that's going to take QUITE a while before it gets here.
(if it ever gets here)

boxcar

Jun 2, 2003, 08:47 AM

argh!! those bastards. I've been holding out for WWDC, waiting for the 12in to get 1ghz and an l3 cache. but at these prices, with the educational discount and the new bundle offer i can get the 12in superdrive with 60gb HD and a 10gb Ipod for about 1800. How i'm i supposed to wait now!!!!

tazo

Jun 2, 2003, 08:47 AM

All I know is that I would be incredibly PO'd if I had just bought the low end combo drive 12'' pb, and could now get a dvd burner for the same price.

macnews

Jun 2, 2003, 08:55 AM

Are there any new rumors if the 15" will get the back lit keyboard? I know a month or so ago people were saying the back light would be only for the 17".

mactastic

Jun 2, 2003, 08:56 AM

Wow, this WWDC is shaping up to be pretty spectacular. Of course we may all come away dissappointed and bitching about it but this sure looks promising. I wouldn't get too excited about 970 PB's yet though, not this rev. One more round with 1.14, or maybe even 1.25 ghz g4 processors in the high end, and 1 ghz in the 12". I don't see how they could update the 15" without updating the 17" since putting a faster processor in the 15" would gut 17" sales. The 17" needs to stay top dog. And hopefully apple has heard the complaints about the 12" and fixes some of them, like maybe a DVI out instead of VGA, and the ability to expand to at least 1 gig of RAM. A PCMCIA card slot would be nice, but I don't know where they would put it. Hmmm should I sell my 7 month old TiBook (1ghz) and buy a new 15" AlBook now? HAHA no! I love my TiBook. Im anticipating at least another 18 months before I'm ready to part with this beauty.

dethl

Jun 2, 2003, 09:03 AM

If you guys can get the educational discount, its an extra $100 off the new price!

I'm looking at a 12" myself. Though figure in the Applecare protection plan (which everyone should get, because anything could happen to our beloved macs) and the price goes fairly high($1,878 w/combo drive). Still a nice price for a 12". I don't get it, why is the ibook protection plan like half the cost of the powerbook plan?

Dave K

Jun 2, 2003, 09:03 AM

For those wondering, Canadian pricing has been tweaked to adjust for the 10 cent rise in the $ since the beginning of the year.

So, while the 17" PB held steady down south, it dropped $600 up here. iBooks were shaved as well, although desktops held steady...

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by macnews
Are there any new rumors if the 15" will get the back lit keyboard? I know a month or so ago people were saying the back light would be only for the 17".

Probably, but anyone can start a rumor!

SilentPanda

Jun 2, 2003, 09:07 AM

Mmmm... updates in less than a month (hopefully). Somebody should start tracking a pricedrop -> update chart. 1, 2, 3 not it!

Anyhow... my dad finally decided that he might want to "play around" with a Mac so he said he'd buy mine and I could get a better one... I'm thinking a 15" powerbook but definitely not until they're updated... the 12" has better specs pretty much than the 15" aside from the screen resolution. Right now I'm using a 15" flat panel iMac (my first Mac woo hoo!) but I think I'd rather have a laptop (with a superdrive)... good ol' envy from friends...

brhmac

Jun 2, 2003, 09:08 AM

[Apple appears to have quietly dropped prices on their 12" and 15" PowerBooks:]

Apple posted the new prices on its Web site and featured a prominent headline.

How is that "quiet"?

You were expecting maybe a phone call? Fireworks display?

Apple has a history of doing this. Cool company. Innovative technology.

But still more expensive than computers with other OSs. Price drops like this help drive sales and move inventory.

jxyama

Jun 2, 2003, 09:21 AM

it's "quiet" because it didn't replace the iTMS/iPod banner on the main site...

10+% price drop would usually merit a big announcement... but this is probably to clear the inventory.

my bet is that 12" won't get updated this month. i think they lowered the price to combat:

1) "confusion" from iBook's 900 MHz.
2) better distinction when 15" gets Al/1GHz/lit keyboard/FW 800 and be priced around $2,300..?

so after wwdc, the lineup may look like:
12" - 867 GHz - $1599
15" - 1 GHz - $2299
17" - 1 GHz - $3299

OR the 17" inventory is "thin" enough that it can be updated to 1+ GHz along with the 15"...?

dethl: if you can get ed. discount on the PB, you can also get a discount on the AppleCare. i think it's a shade under $300...

Macmaniac

Jun 2, 2003, 09:31 AM

Hopefully they will keep that price when they revise the 12in PB I want to get a 1ghz model, and one that has a better vid card. Crossing my fingers for september!!!

rjwill246

Jun 2, 2003, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by iwantanewmac
Don't hold your breath for a 970 powerbook.
that's going to take QUITE a while before it gets here.
(if it ever gets here)

No it won't: and here is why. Apple is painfully, painfully aware!! that they are getting the stuffing kicked out of them because of the megahertz myth (no longer a myth, of course, the theory behind this notwithstanding). Their sales will go nowhere if they don't get their MHz up there STAT. This is so bloody obvious that it shouldn't need to be stated. I would be amazed if in 6 to 9 months' time that we find G3s, G4s, 970s in all manner of combinations in the product line. Not only would that absolutely mess with the consumer's mind to the extent that sale's paralysis would occur, no manner of advertising or financial coercion would get people to buy Apple's computers.
"Er, excuse me, but could you tell me which one of these is good value for money?" Can you imagine the salesperson at CompUSA explaining THAT mess to a customer?
Nope. Apple has little option but to get to the 970s as the ONLY chip in the lineup and make that an advertising advantage. If the rumour that the IBM chips are cheaper than the Moto chips, it makes even less sense to continue to buy Moto chips... Apple would have only to fulfill their obligation to Moto for the current contract and I bet that there is an "out" clause in there somewhere.
Remember that these chips consume little power at reasonable clock speeds and are ideal for PBs. I realize that Dell et al. have all sorts of CPUs at all sorts of clock speeds in their computers- but Apple has to fight this fight with as clean a set of numbers as possible. The Wintel world is largely uncritical of its own shortcomings while happily- and too often successfully- miring Apple in arguments that are nothing more than paper tigers.. but somehow they grow teeth and end up biting Apple.
What we need are stunning chips in the best computers running the best OS at competitive prices. Apple has only once in a while achieved all of these parameters. Let's hope that by the end of the year, that reviewer after reviewer is able to trumpet that Apple Computer simply hands down has the best computing experience in the world, for business as well as the consumer. Let's hope.
PS: It would be still reasonable, for an IBM G3 to be in a low cost box, terminal or other device, if Apple goes with that concept.

Moxiemike

Jun 2, 2003, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by hvfsl
I was thinking the same since I have a 550 version, but looking at the differences in screen sizes I will only upgrade to a 15in Powerbook or maybe the 14in ibook if it gets a faster cpu (1ghz or more) and a better graphics card (at least geforce 4go 440 or radeon 9000m. I will wait and see what WWDC brings.

The way I see it, you're not losing much real estate--it's all in the width. I do like the 15" but i carry too many bulky things with me already.

And the ability to burn a disc on the road would be awesome (dvd only here :( )

The 15 just seems a bit too bulky. I almost wish i still had my lombard....

jxyama

Jun 2, 2003, 09:55 AM

we find G3s, G4s, 970s in all manner of combinations in the product line. Not only would that absolutely mess with the consumer's mind to the extent that sale's paralysis would occur, no manner of advertising or financial coercion would get people to buy Apple's computers.
"Er, excuse me, but could you tell me which one of these is good value for money?" Can you imagine the salesperson at CompUSA explaining THAT mess to a customer?

how's this any more confusing than Celeron, P3, P3-M, P4, P4-M, AMD Athlon, etc., etc..?

MHz myth is not as bad, I hope... Athlon chips never state their speed, at least not as clearly as Intel. Apple would probably do ok just by dropping MHz/GHz designation and just call machines "867", "900" and "1000".

it would be dangerous to have ONE chip. i think you are trying to convince yourself that 970 PB will ship later this month and coming up with reasons why...

i can't say anything for sure, of course, but this is a rumors site, afterall... my money would be on PB NOT getting 970 anytime soon, certainly not this month. i could be wrong, but i wouldn't get the hopes up.

KingDanimus

Jun 2, 2003, 10:04 AM

Oh how I hope it could be true... a portable 970 this summer.

Sonofhaig

Jun 2, 2003, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by JediMacster
Their numbers are waning...

My iBook served me well, alas its time has come...

Soon the PB 15" 970 will be mine... my own... MY PRECIOUS! :D

You are too funny! That's how I see these upcoming Macs too.
(Good use a quote from a great movie)
They are putting the 970 chips in upcoming laptops too? Right?

Should I wait to see whats coming out? Or take advantage of the
price drop? Oh the temptation..........

jxyama

Jun 2, 2003, 10:05 AM

i knew it... ok, who put the one negative rating on this thread..?? better explain why a $200 price drop is ever a bad thing.

benixau

Jun 2, 2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by jxyama
i knew it... ok, who put the one negative rating on this thread..?? better explain why a $200 price drop is ever a bad thing.

I woke my mum up laughing - what a ****wit. Hey i wil give it a 5 to help even it up.

[mod edit: Don't circumvent the profanity filter.]

john123

Jun 2, 2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by rjwill246
No it won't: and here is why. Apple is painfully, painfully aware!! that they are getting the stuffing kicked out of them because of the megahertz myth (no longer a myth, of course, the theory behind this notwithstanding). Their sales will go nowhere if they don't get their MHz up there STAT. This is so bloody obvious that it shouldn't need to be stated. I would be amazed if in 6 to 9 months' time that we find G3s, G4s, 970s in all manner of combinations in the product line. Not only would that absolutely mess with the consumer's mind to the extent that sale's paralysis would occur, no manner of advertising or financial coercion would get people to buy Apple's computers.
"Er, excuse me, but could you tell me which one of these is good value for money?" Can you imagine the salesperson at CompUSA explaining THAT mess to a customer?
Nope. Apple has little option but to get to the 970s as the ONLY chip in the lineup and make that an advertising advantage. If the rumour that the IBM chips are cheaper than the Moto chips, it makes even less sense to continue to buy Moto chips... Apple would have only to fulfill their obligation to Moto for the current contract and I bet that there is an "out" clause in there somewhere.
Remember that these chips consume little power at reasonable clock speeds and are ideal for PBs. I realize that Dell et al. have all sorts of CPUs at all sorts of clock speeds in their computers- but Apple has to fight this fight with as clean a set of numbers as possible. The Wintel world is largely uncritical of its own shortcomings while happily- and too often successfully- miring Apple in arguments that are nothing more than paper tigers.. but somehow they grow teeth and end up biting Apple.
What we need are stunning chips in the best computers running the best OS at competitive prices. Apple has only once in a while achieved all of these parameters. Let's hope that by the end of the year, that reviewer after reviewer is able to trumpet that Apple Computer simply hands down has the best computing experience in the world, for business as well as the consumer. Let's hope.
PS: It would be still reasonable, for an IBM G3 to be in a low cost box, terminal or other device, if Apple goes with that concept.

I hate to break it to you, but there's nothing in what you said which squares with the logistics of reality.

Apple being "painfully aware" of their lag in terms of processor power is (1) not a unique feeling, as it's been that way for some time, and (2) not able to bend the laws of physics and logistics to make machines happen faster than is physically possible.

Maybe we'll all be shocked and amazed in the next month, and the 970 will find its way into laptops. But given that a new processor will require a new architecture in terms of heat and energy management, and given that we don't have a generation of desktops already in production (at least for sale) for Apple to have been working with that technology, I'd expect a delay between the introduction of the 970 in desktops and laptops -- much as we saw that kind of delay with the G4.

Further, your own argument in favor of "cleanness" in processors is your own personal opinion but is not at all a reason why Apple is more likely to introduce a 970-based laptop in the immediate future. Would it be nice to have everything simple? Yeah. Is that consideration going to outweigh financial and logistical ones? No way.

This all seems to be another one of those times when everyone is expecting way too much out of Apple and is getting hyped up for a disappointment. If Apple surprises us, then great...but I wouldn't get my hopes up and my credit card greased for a 970-based PowerBook in the next month...

evil

Jun 2, 2003, 10:18 AM

nooooooo! i paid 2899 cdn for mine about a month ago and now its 2249!!!
im a poor student. i wouldnt care if i was rich but now i wish i could get some compensation for this.
apparently the credit card i used will give me 100 bucks back. thats no where near the 650 difference:mad:

aharon

Jun 2, 2003, 10:26 AM

All I want is a 15" 1 GHZ Al book. I can wait for the 970. But PLEEASSE Apple, I want an upgraded 15" Powerbook in my hands by the end of July. Is that too much to ask?

jxyama

Jun 2, 2003, 10:30 AM

i hear ya, evil... if it's within 30 days, doesn't Apple have a price matching policy? you may want to call...

however, you said you've had it for a month... $600 price difference is $20 per day. you can't just compare the price drop... how much use do you think you got out of your machine in a month? $5 a day? 10$ a day? think about that...

but i hear ya. i've had mine for 4 months and i've loved it, but can't help feel a little jealous of other fellows who's gonna get their 12" for $200 less.

admford

Jun 2, 2003, 10:34 AM

One interesting thing in Italy is that Apple is offering zero interest payments up to June 28th. Mainly apple does these things when new products are going to be released. I would say that the new PBooks or PMacs might come out around the end date of the offer. These offers aren't completely made for companies, but mainly to normal home consumers, so my best guess is new PBooks and PMacs.

punter

Jun 2, 2003, 10:36 AM

celaurie

Jun 2, 2003, 10:38 AM

I wonder if there will be a change to international prices too?

Trekkie

Jun 2, 2003, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by rjwill246
No it won't: and here is why. Apple is painfully, [B]painfully aware!! that they are getting the stuffing kicked out of them because of the megahertz myth (no longer a myth, of course, the theory behind this notwithstanding).

Just wanted to comment on the statement.

The MHz Myth is alive and well. but when you have a 3 to 1 MHz advantadge (or GHz in this instance) the myth becomes irrelevant.

Flowbee

Jun 2, 2003, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by jxyama
i hear ya, evil... if it's within 30 days, doesn't Apple have a price matching policy? you may want to call...

An Apple store employee told me several months ago that there is a 10 day price guarantee. That is, if thee price drops within 10 days of your purchase (from the Apple store) they'll refund the difference to you. This was right after the 23-inch displays were lowered to $1999... apparently they were swamped with calls.

Trekkie

Jun 2, 2003, 10:44 AM

I really don't see the PowerPC 970 showing up in a Powerbook at WWDC.

Think about it.

Mac's are sold like this

Best-> Power Mac
Better -> iMac
Good -> eMac

Portable -> PowerBook

If you wanted to win back a market segment that has been slipping for a while because of real lack of performance finally at the 1.4GHz speed level?

Power Mac

Power Mac will have the 970 First. I'd bet money on it. It may be first for a while, but not a long while.

I'd bet PowerBooks will get 970 1Q 2005 at Macworld SF. If not later.

Besides, the same issue is going to hold true that it does with the Intel world.

32 bit apps will need to be written to take advantage of the 64-bit capabilities.

Photoshop, Quark, you name it will need a 64bit binary to take full advantage of the PowerPC 970.

32 bit will run slightly better because of the faster clock speed, but not take advantage of the bigger memory footprint, etc, that the 64bit world offers.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love my 12" Powerbook to go obsolete (ok,not love, because I can't run out and buy a PowerPC 970 here 3 months after getting a 12") but I was tried of my 550 and I wanted a smaller footprint system.

Though I'd love to run down to my local Apple Store (woot, just moved to NC, there is an Apple store here in Durham) and pickup the Power Mac 970 system with a 23" monitor. I'd sell a kidney.

I came about 2" from buying a 1.42 with a 20" but I really couldn't stomach the speed difference between a Pent4 3.06 so I went with a Powerbook for now.

machan

Jun 2, 2003, 10:58 AM

yeah, 10 days for a price difference refund. i just called to give it a shot anyway, seeing as i just got mine 3 weeks ago. at least the woman was really nice about it and said she was sorry.

crap.

dguisinger

Jun 2, 2003, 11:05 AM

This isnt nessecarly what people think. It could very well be a 970 revision power book coming out.

Remember how quiet it was about the 12" and 17" notebooks?

Everyone said no revisions......only Arn found out less than 12 hours before release.

1) Thats a very tight-lipped supply chain
2) Shows big products come with big surprises

With the cost of the 970 30% less than the G4....with the obvious speed advantage, and the fact that the 970 1.2GHz hasnt appeared in desktop specs, I would wager that the 17" and 15" will probably have the 970....infact these two laptops could probably share the same logic board. The 12" will probably keep the G4 and move to 1GHz if they are able to sqeeze it in.

To everyone claiming the chipsets would be more expensive, and the ram unbearable for a laptop. WTF are you smoking? The powerbooks already have DDR ram. You can buy 256MB DDR modules now days for under $30 (PriceWatch).

The chipsets? Other than R&D will cost no more than current chipsets. Infact, that R&D money has to be spent sometime, so why not now?

Chipset & RAM price issues are non-issues. The question is whether or not Apple is ready, and I would have to say the following:

1) It appeared Apple hit delays with the 15" earlier in the year when it was expected.
2) Apple never released it....and wouldnt release a consumer machine 5 months later..by then its obsolete..what we are going to see is a redesigned 15" model that never was.

rjwill246

Jun 2, 2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by john123
I hate to break it to you, but there's nothing in what you said which squares with the logistics of reality.

"Nothing?" So, you would consider that Apple's current line is not confusing? You can't be reading the torrent of comments about this. To streamline at lower cost is not in Apple's interest? Tell that to Apple's engineers and Fred Anderson.
One supplier: not the best option is it? But Moto may no longer be be in the picture and that may be reality. It could be worse. Apple could have no supplier. They have come awfully close to this before.
As for Dell et al., as I already said in the prior post- not sure why you didn't see it- there seems to be less of an issue with multiple processor types in the Wintel buyers mind. From their comments they look for speed and lower price, not something that Apple can tout easily: and again, post after post in these fora and elsewhere from Wintel users say this.
Apple has to address these issues if they wish to make switching a major reality. Continuing the status quo (or as you have implied, making it worse by adding to the already confused mix), cannot possibly help Apple make its case to would be switchers.
Oh, and I am certainly not straining to see the 970 out next week. I have all the computers I need. I just want to see Apple get out of its miserable deal with Moto, get chips that help with the MHz myth, decrease the confusion in the product line and start seeing a rising graph of sales.

maradong

Jun 2, 2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Panther
Probably just means the 15" is coming, but they couldn't discount it by itself because their'd be only $200 between the 12 and 15"...

On the other hand, that doesn't make much sense... If they were only $200 apart, that might make potential 12" customers consider the 15" instead, so the inventory would go down faster...

Perhaps in finding a way to get some of the 17's features into the 15' (e.g. backlit keyboard... fingers crossed), they also worked out how to shoehorn some of them into the 12" too, and they're going to rev it...

Either way, it looks like my 15" PB wait is almost over :cool:

That s what i hope just as well. The keyboard backlight is a relly genius ( js that word correct here ? no idea ) feature. I m waiting to see the pb 15 with it. 12 '' is quite improbable i think, they already had to pack everything so near...

-
and, would you buy a powerbook with a g4 with a frequency above 1 ghz? I really don t know if I would, as, the g4 is only built for 1 ghz and not more. I may be wrong, but a higher frequency, is for me a synonym with a shorter life span, and a lot of heaet production. And if i spend really ( for me it is much ) money for the 15' pb, i want to keep it as long as possible, not having to worry with heat problems, or any other negative points of a 1.2 ghz version or so

neutrino23

Jun 2, 2003, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by Trekkie

32 bit apps will need to be written to take advantage of the 64-bit capabilities.

au contraire (I've waited a long time to be able to use that phrase:cool: )

All apps will run tremendously faster due to the more efficient processor and the much faster memory bus. 64-bits buys you capabilities to deal with large memory spaces more easily, not speed (for the most part).

nagromme

Jun 2, 2003, 11:30 AM

Higher MHz G4s sound most likely for the PowerBooks--and would improve an already great system. 970s WILL come to PowerBooks someday, I'm sure, hopefully not too late in 2004. I'll be waiting for a portable 970 myself.

But don't get your hopes too high for 970 portables soon. That strikes me as one of the more extreme rumors out there, and likely to disappoint. Possible? Maybe so. It would be great.

BTW, edu pricing starts at $1499 for the PowerBooks now. Not bad!

Frobozz

Jun 2, 2003, 11:39 AM

... let's not forget that they've not only dropped prices on the new machines, but they've also added every model of current PowerMacs to the refurbished section. Are they *actually* refurbished? Hehe. Probably... but i think Apple is clearing some inventory or trying to boost some sales before the end of this fiscal quarter (June 30th?).

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 12:22 PM

jfruh

Jun 2, 2003, 12:29 PM

for what it's worth, i was just strolling through the apple history section of the apple museum, and the following interesting facts appeared:

First PowerPC desktop system:
Spring 94
First PowerPC laptop:
August 95

first G4 desktop:
9/1/99
first G4 laptop:
1/9/01

BUT...

first G3 desktop:
November 1997
first G3 laptop:
November 1997!

if the 970 is as power-efficient as is rumored, maybe we will see a G3-type situation here...

jf

AppleMatt

Jun 2, 2003, 12:33 PM

hmmm, well I think I'll keep it for now then, unless three or more of the following happen:

- 1GHz G4
- Better Graphics Card
- L3 Cache!
- 256MB on-board RAM
- Backlit keyboard
- Boot time significantly increased
- 970 (ya, right!)

I'm betting they'll stick the 17 inch's graphics card in the 12", and upgrade the 17" to a ATi.

Backlit keyboard is unlikely, but that would make the 12" the ULTIMATE laptop!

AppleMatt

Abstract

Jun 2, 2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by evil
nooooooo! i paid 2899 cdn for mine about a month ago and now its 2249!!!
im a poor student. i wouldnt care if i was rich but now i wish i could get some compensation for this.
apparently the credit card i used will give me 100 bucks back. thats no where near the 650 difference:mad:

Ouch, you got screwed. The price of the 12" in Canada right now is only $150 Cdn (around $105 US) more than the 12" iBook 800MHz + combo drive that was available less than 2 months ago before the iBook update. I may go for a 12" PB instead now. :D Sorry about the $650 difference.

Originally posted by jxyama

however, you said you've had it for a month... $600 price difference is $20 per day. you can't just compare the price drop... how much use do you think you got out of your machine in a month? $5 a day? 10$ a day? think about that...

I think its ridiculous to think about it that way. You're right, a $600 price difference is $20 per day, but that only corresponds to the difference in price, not the total price. Paying an extra $20 each day over a month for the machine is a big deal, even if he got $5 or $10 a day out of his machine.

Its unfortunate, but that's life. This happens in the computer world often, and it has probably happened to many of us at one point.

Originally posted by Dave K
For those wondering, Canadian pricing has been tweaked to adjust for the 10 cent rise in the $ since the beginning of the year.

So, while the 17" PB held steady down south, it dropped $600 up here. iBooks were shaved as well, although desktops held steady...

Yep, I noticed that too. I checked the UK website, but it didn't drop in price. I also checked the Australian price.......I don't think it dropped there either.:confused:

iShater

Jun 2, 2003, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by punter
Next time I buy a new computer I don't think I'll log onto any rumor sites for a while. I feel for you!

hehehe, I hear ya, I'm afraid everytime I come here since I got my iBook!

-hh

Jun 2, 2003, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by nagromme
Higher MHz G4s sound most likely for the PowerBooks--and would improve an already great system. 970s WILL come to PowerBooks someday, I'm sure, hopefully not too late in 2004. I'll be waiting for a portable 970 myself.

But don't get your hopes too high for 970 portables soon. That strikes me as one of the more extreme rumors out there, and likely to disappoint. Possible? Maybe so. It would be great.

BTW, edu pricing starts at $1499 for the PowerBooks now. Not bad!

Fed Employee discount is an alternative for some non-EDU'ers, and the prices there are generally similar:

12"/Combo: $1540
12"/SuperD: $1692
15"/Combo: $1879
15"/SuperD: $2443
17"/SuperD: $3101

FWIW, there's no PB's on the refurb list, but there are PowerMacs listed, as follows:

Power Mac G4 1Ghz 256MB/60GB/Combo/GigE/56K
- Refurbished $1,299.00

Power Mac G4 1.25Ghz DUAL/256MB/80GB/SuperDrive/GigE/56K
- Refurbished $1,999.00

Power Mac G4 1.42 GHz DUAL/512MB/120GB/SuperDrive/GigE/56K
- Refurbished $2,399.00

Given the Mac performance gap, I'm personally much more inclined to buy a laptop instead of a desktop system. And if Steve is to believed in regards to his claim of "the year of the laptop", this would tend to bode well for a rapid adoption of the 970 into portable applications. What I'd probably be inclined to see is the PowerBooks going to SP 970's and the PowerMac's going to DP 970's.

And while there has been the rumored SP 970 PM motherboard, there's many possibilities as to why. The most commonly heard is that a SP 970 represents the entry-level PM tower (or whatever).

But what's also possible is that Apple wanted to compress their PB rollout schedule as much as possible, which meant that they needed to have some way to get some SP 970's out in the hands of developers before the PB design was completed. The traditional way to do this is to crank up a small production run and grab off-the-shelf stuff for your "test mule". For this application, using the PowerMac chasis is the obvious choice.

-hh

Dave K

Jun 2, 2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Abstract
Yep, I noticed that too. I checked the UK website, but it didn't drop in price. I also checked the Australian price.......I don't think it dropped there either.:confused:

Someone over on Ars said prices on the 17 in Aus. dropped about $700, and ~$1000 on the 15's....

Which is possible given that they've jumped up in value almost the same amount as we have, only from a lower rung on the ladder...

jxyama

Jun 2, 2003, 01:29 PM

abstract:

i kinda know what you are saying, but you can (and have to) think of this kind of situation like the way i posted.

time is money. having a computer in your hand and being able to work with it is worth something. yes, evil effectively paid $20 a day for a month to get the same computer, but he got something out of the computer. price difference or total price, doesn't matter. the only difference is that he had a computer for a month. (and the price dropped.)

you cannot ask management to postpone purchasing a computer because the "price is bound to drop." if you need it, you buy it.

i realize this explanation probably doesn't apply to a student like evil, because he probably didn't absolutely need the computer when he purchased it, and a $650 drop (which is 25% of the original purchase price) is somewhat of an extreme, but i hope you understand my point.

in this case, apple did a little bit of an extreme. it's an unfortunate combination of currency market fluctuations and the update cycle. (as far as apple is concerned, they got the same amount of u.s. dollars... but of course, evil physically had to $650 more a month ago... bummer :( )

Snowy_River

Jun 2, 2003, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by iwantanewmac
Don't hold your breath for a 970 powerbook.
that's going to take QUITE a while before it gets here.
(if it ever gets here)

I'd say it's not as far fetched as some would like to believe. As others have pointed out, consider the G3 release. Both PM and PB were released simultaneously. So Apple has shown that they can do it. Now, of course these will be first gen machines with some bleeding-edge issues. The next rev is the one that I'd target for those who can wait...

dguisinger

Jun 2, 2003, 01:30 PM

Say, anyone else remember IBM said the 970 was coming in at 1.2GHz, 1.6GHz, and 1.8GHz.

Question is, why a 1.2GHz? Its the only model Apple could use in the current process technology that would work in a PowerBook. Also, notice that IBM has announced blade servers running from 1.6GHz to 2.4GHz using the 970 chips. If IBM isn't using the 1.2GHz, and if you claim Apple isn't using it because they are waiting for a smaller process.......then let me ask: WTF would IBM be making the chip for?

ratspg

Jun 2, 2003, 01:42 PM

what kind of person would make an announcement at the start of '03 and say, this is the 'year of the laptop' A year doesn't end in June. 970s or whatever the hell the chip is, is VERY possible in the portables. I'm not getting anybody's hopes up, but why say year of the laptop, and come with desktops, and low-end g4 box's like all this crap says on the sites??

just my nickel's worth, heh :D

Mr. G4

Jun 2, 2003, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by richie
... So why no discount on the 17 inch? ...

According to Mac Generation (http://www.macgeneration.com/mgnews/depeche.php?aIdDepeche=100538) there is a 300 Euro redux on the 17" Powerbook that more than US$300 in Europe:p

jamilecrire

Jun 2, 2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Trekkie

I came about 2" from buying a 1.42 with a 20" but I really couldn't stomach the speed difference between a Pent4 3.06 so I went with a Powerbook for now.

How does one compare speed between a 1.42 GHz (DP) G4 and a P4 3.06GHz. I'm seriously wondering.

I have a QS 733 and it's very fast (plus my 22' display kicks arse). I bought a 12" iBook for my wife (900MHz) and it seems the same. I have a Dual 933 PIII and a Ultra SPARC 360MHz (64bit as well). The slowest of the bunch as far as snappiness is obviously the SPARC. However the Dual 933 feels as fast as the QS 733. 10.2 made all the difference in the world. 10.1 was f'n A slow. I cannot wait for 10.3.

I've also got a 1.13GHz PIII laptop that is over a year old so Apple really does need to get something going in the GHz race that is about 50 to 100% faster just for marketing sake.

If they come out with a 15" G4 and a PowerMac 970 I'll buy both. However if they come out with a 15" 970 and a PowerMac 970 I'll just skip the PowerMac. Apple might increase sales (at least 1 to me) if they stagger the release of the 970 throughout their lineup.

reflex

Jun 2, 2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by ratspg
what kind of person would make an announcement at the start of '03 and say, this is the 'year of the laptop'

A person trying to sell his product ?

jamilecrire

Jun 2, 2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by dguisinger
Say, anyone else remember IBM said the 970 was coming in at 1.2GHz, 1.6GHz, and 1.8GHz.

Question is, why a 1.2GHz? Its the only model Apple could use in the current process technology that would work in a PowerBook. Also, notice that IBM has announced blade servers running from 1.6GHz to 2.4GHz using the 970 chips. If IBM isn't using the 1.2GHz, and if you claim Apple isn't using it because they are waiting for a smaller process.......then let me ask: WTF would IBM be making the chip for?

Their own linux based desktop system (a la the Ultra SPARC family). Sun charges an arm and a leg for their 64 bit machines. Go look at a Blade 2000.

http://www.sun.com/desktop/sunblade2000/
Blade 2000:
Dual 1.2GHz UltraSPARC III
512MB RAM
SCSI Hard Drives
Good FX Card
$10,000

Crazy. IBM Linux on PPC. IBM will kick the crap out of this setup for 1/2 the price. Short Sun (sunw) now. They are a sinking ship. (Wouldn't it be sweet if Apple returned the insult to buy them for 1/4th of their market cap! lol, karma you sun jerks).

The new 64bit world is open for all. AMD, Intel (bad strategy), IBM (PPC), Apple. It all depends on who doesn't drop the ball. And who decides to do the best/most marketing. Go Apple!!!

SwitchMonkey

Jun 2, 2003, 02:03 PM

So...
what is better buy now?.. the 900Mhz iBook or the reduced 800Mhz 12"AlBook?

It was looking like the iBook was a better buy, before the price drop.

visor

Jun 2, 2003, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by Mr. G4
According to Mac Generation (http://www.macgeneration.com/mgnews/depeche.php?aIdDepeche=100538) there is a 300 Euro redux on the 17" Powerbook that more than US$300 in Europe:p

since the pbooks are more than 700euros to expensive right now, compared to US$ Apple store - a 300euro reduction is still very modest.

ZildjianKX

Jun 2, 2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by jamilecrire

How does one compare speed between a 1.42 GHz (DP) G4 and a P4 3.06GHz. I'm seriously wondering.

You can do benchmarks... like
http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/11_nov/reviews/cw_macvspciii.htm

The new 800 mhz FSB 3.0C Ghz P4 would be even faster...

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 02:07 PM

Why are people so sure that we'll never see a 970 in a portable.

If it's true that the 970 will be in the desktops, then it's almost a given that it will follow in the portables, as every chip in the past has on a Mac.

The only way I see a 970 NOT making it into a portable as such, is if Apple/IMB have developed a portable version of the chip - imagine 970-M type thing. It would have a different name but be essentially the same chip.

Apple has a small market share, and that means they have a relatively small developer base. It's always been in their best interest to have a product line that is easy and convenient to develop software/hardware for.

The new chip needs to be an easy transition for developers who currently have G3/G4 optimised products. Adding a different chip to the portables might confuse that situation even more.

jxyama

Jun 2, 2003, 02:19 PM

no one is claiming we won't see 970 in a PB. many of, i believe, feel that we won't see 970 in a PB this month.

ratspg

Jun 2, 2003, 02:26 PM

I'm with ya gotohamish. People are so anti-970 in a portable, lol. They should be just as equally anti-970 in a desktop? With such lack of evidence, it seems like people are going to be let down when WWDC rolls around.

Maybe, maybe not, but this is a rumor site, so I feel that 970s are equally acceptable and available in desktops and portables. Nobody knew 12/17inch powerbooks were on their way, those came out of nowhere.

If its in a desktop, great, if it's in a laptop, awesome.... point is, the new processor is needed pretty badly. If it is released in a portable first, there will be a completely revampped Powermac line most likely. But who knows? I say we just wait and stop speculating haha on a fact sheet of nothing. :)

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
no one is claiming we won't see 970 in a PB. many of, i believe, feel that we won't see 970 in a PB this month.

Search the forums, plenty of people have said that they believe that even if the 970 appears in desktops, we'll never see it in the Powerbook. They have no evident to support these claims either.

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by ratspg
I'm with ya gotohamish. People are so anti-970 in a portable, lol. They should be just as equally anti-970 in a desktop? With such lack of evidence, it seems like people are going to be let down when WWDC rolls around.

Maybe, maybe not, but this is a rumor site, so I feel that 970s are equally acceptable and available in desktops and portables. Nobody knew 12/17inch powerbooks were on their way, those came out of nowhere.

If its in a desktop, great, if it's in a laptop, awesome.... point is, the new processor is needed pretty badly. If it is released in a portable first, there will be a completely revampped Powermac line most likely. But who knows? I say we just wait and stop speculating haha on a fact sheet of nothing. :)

Thanks.

I certainly would be surprised if the 970 comes out in a portable before a desktop, or even for at least 4 months after the desktop introduction.

However, I hope they do!!

iShater

Jun 2, 2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by SwitchMonkey
So...
what is better buy now?.. the 900Mhz iBook or the reduced 800Mhz 12"AlBook?

It was looking like the iBook was a better buy, before the price drop.

I would still say that the 900Mhz iBook would be a better deal, if you don't absolutely need the G4 enhancements for iMovie and other graphics apps.

You would also save yourself a few hundered $$.

nspeds

Jun 2, 2003, 02:40 PM

I think its a pretty big assumption to think the phrase "The year of the laptop" subsumed the inclusion of the 970 within powerbooks. I think its pretty safe to assume that the statement was more or less tailored for the SPECIFIC situation of the introduction of the 17 inch and 12 inch version. I make new years resolutions and probably follow it for 3 months but I don't remember all of them today.

Now, I thought about this logically, and came up with the following premises and their conclusions. I'll start the syllogism...
1) It has been previously established that when products from Apple are aggresively discounted, they are due to be discontinued/update.
2) The only products that have been discounted are the 12 and 15 inches.
Therefore: The 17 inch will NOT be updated.

However, people state the the reason the 17 hasn't been discounted is because its selling big, but I would argue that the 12 inch is selling even better since the target market is a lot bigger than the 17 inch. (I may have to think about that statement, because if the target market of the 17 inch is smaller than the 12 inch, then you could still call the 17 inch "successful" per se since its hit Apple expectations. But I think in a comparison with 12 inch sales, the 12 inch out numbers"

Hence, if you think things through correctly, the rumormills will be telling you that the PowerBooks WILL have the 970. However, if you look at things syllogistically, that means that IF a PowerBook is updated to the 970, it will ONLY be the 12 and 15 inch models, being that the 17 wasn't discounted and hence is not likely to be updated.

Now here is where the problem lies, although the 15 inch is the flagship machine, if BOTH the 12 inch and 15 inch get the 970 and the 17 inch don't, then what, the new 12 inches gain bragging rights over the 17 inch in terms of speed? That doesn't make sense.

Hence the 970 update for WWDC seems very unlikely.

kylos

Jun 2, 2003, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
i hear ya, evil... if it's within 30 days, doesn't Apple have a price matching policy? you may want to call...

however, you said you've had it for a month... $600 price difference is $20 per day. you can't just compare the price drop... how much use do you think you got out of your machine in a month? $5 a day? 10$ a day? think about that...

but i hear ya. i've had mine for 4 months and i've loved it, but can't help feel a little jealous of other fellows who's gonna get their 12" for $200 less.

With that logic a powerbook would be completely worthless in 144.95 days.:) :D :D

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by iShater
I would still say that the 900Mhz iBook would be a better deal, if you don't absolutely need the G4 enhancements for iMovie and other graphics apps.

You would also save yourself a few hundered $$.

I've used a 900Htz iBook recently, and for all tasks it still seemed really sluggish - and I'm using a G4 TiBook 500 - which is a fantastic machine. Go G4 if you can.

iShater

Jun 2, 2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by gotohamish
I've used a 900Htz iBook recently, and for all tasks it still seemed really sluggish - and I'm using a G4 TiBook 500 - which is a fantastic machine. Go G4 if you can.

How much RAM was on it?

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by iShater
How much RAM was on it?

384MB.

Admittedly I have 768MB in my Powerbook, but still!

Trekkie

Jun 2, 2003, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by jamilecrire
How does one compare speed between a 1.42 GHz (DP) G4 and a P4 3.06GHz. I'm seriously wondering.

Easy. A high end AV website compared Photoshop and Adobe After Effects on a 3.06 to a 1.42 and the 3.06 kicked it's butt.

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by nspeds
Now here is where the problem lies, although the 15 inch is the flagship machine, if BOTH the 12 inch and 15 inch get the 970 and the 17 inch don't, then what, the new 12 inches gain bragging rights over the 17 inch in terms of speed? That doesn't make sense.

Hence the 970 update for WWDC seems very unlikely.
The reason Apple didn't discount the 17" PB is simple: It's freakishly expensive for a reason.
Apple figures that the amount of additional people who would buy a 17" PB at a $200 discount wouldn't be significant enough to warrant the the slashed price in the first place. Remember: the 17" PB is like the ProPowerbook.

I think that these price drops are a major red flag. A $200 drop is big, suggesting Apple wants to get rid of excess Powerbooks fast (the keynote is only three weeks away...).

Not just is there evidence that Apple will move the Powerbooks to 970s, but you have to consider the situation. If just the Powermacs go to the 970, it creates a massive imbalance in Apple's pro line. That's why the G3 intro is such a relevant example. It was a huge transition for Apple, and leaving the Powerbooks behind would have been a mistake. The same logic applies here.

Also, once the Powerbooks are on 970s, the iBook will finally be able to push away from the G3 (if only to goto the GOBI).

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Trekkie
Easy. A high end AV website compared Photoshop and Adobe After Effects on a 3.06 to a 1.42 and the 3.06 kicked it's butt.

Finally, I was about to write the same thing. Well said.

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
The reason Apple didn't discount the 17" PB is simple: It's freakishly expensive for a reason.

It actually the same price as the original top of the line TiBook was when introduced.

MacHack

Jun 2, 2003, 03:06 PM

I'm guessing this has more to do with the pricing just being finalized (and lowered) for the new 15" rather than clearing an already low inventory of the current 15" PowerBooks.

nspeds

Jun 2, 2003, 03:09 PM

Yes, if some how we CAN prove (if it already hasn't) that the 17 inch is going to be updated then the possibility of a 970 update is not only possible, but almost certain.

HERE is where my problem lies...

I just auctioned of my iBook and I'm sending it in a couple of days, now, I need a Macintosh and I would be more than willing to buy a 17 inch Powerbook. But if Apple is going to update teh 15 inch, I would gladly buy that because its more portable. But, i wouldnt mind shelling out the extra $$$ for the 17 inch if time warrants me. However, if there is going to be a 970 upgrade, then I'll have to wait.

But, if I don't buy a mac by the 11th, I will be Macless for my out of town trip which i really need a laptop for. I might be able to manage with my windows laptop, but it would be nice to have my mac. I need to hear a well warranted argument telling me how the 970 upgrade is imminent so that I can wait, lol.

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by MacHack
I'm guessing this has more to do with the pricing just being finalized (and lowered) for the new 15" rather than clearing an already low inventory of the current 15" PowerBooks.
That's a good point (and watch as I use this to forward the Powerbook 970 idea), especially if MacWhispers is right about the 970 being more cost-effective for Apple. Lower the prices now to sell off excess stock, and keep them low while still making a good profit thanks to lessened costs. For Apple, that's Win/Win.

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
That's a good point (and watch as I use this to forward the Powerbook 970 idea), especially if MacWhispers is right about the 970 being more cost-effective for Apple. Lower the prices now to sell off excess stock, and keep them low while still making a good profit thanks to lessened costs. For Apple, that's Win/Win.

Keep those "Win" reference away from your Apple!!! :D :D :D

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by gotohamish
It actually the same price as the original top of the line TiBook was when introduced.
Just put that into perspective though, the original 450 MHz G4 Powermac was $3499. You can't really compare old computer prices to new computer prices.
Originally posted by gotohamish
Keep those "Win" reference away from your Apple!!! :D :D :D
Whoops! :p I guess I should call it a Benefit/Benefit situation from now on.

wilburpan

Jun 2, 2003, 03:19 PM

One of the curious things to me is not how much the next bump in Powerbook performance will be, but the fact that not a single Mac rumor site that I could find predicted this price drop.

You would think that if information such as (paraphrasing) "pallets of new 15" Powerbooks are in warehouses ready to go" is available, then changes in pricing would also be at least hinted at in advance.

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
Just put that into perspective though, the original 450 MHz G4 Powermac was $3499. You can't really compare old computer prices to new computer prices.

Whoops! :p I guess I should call it a Benefit/Benefit situation from now on.

That wasn't my point - it was that the original poster said it was "freakishly" expensive - which it isn't really, if you look at trends.

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by nspeds
Yes, if some how we CAN prove (if it already hasn't) that the 17 inch is going to be updated then the possibility of a 970 update is not only possible, but almost certain.

HERE is where my problem lies...

I just auctioned of my iBook and I'm sending it in a couple of days, now, I need a Macintosh and I would be more than willing to buy a 17 inch Powerbook. But if Apple is going to update teh 15 inch, I would gladly buy that because its more portable. But, i wouldnt mind shelling out the extra $$$ for the 17 inch if time warrants me. However, if there is going to be a 970 upgrade, then I'll have to wait.

But, if I don't buy a mac by the 11th, I will be Macless for my out of town trip which i really need a laptop for. I might be able to manage with my windows laptop, but it would be nice to have my mac. I need to hear a well warranted argument telling me how the 970 upgrade is imminent so that I can wait, lol.
Look at it this way:
Apple might release a Powerbook with a state-of-the-art (so to speak) 64-bit processor in it. That's worth waiting for. Hell, I've been waiting six months to buy a new iBook!

If you want evidence, here are some quick points:
1. Today's price-drops. A classic sign that something new's on the way.
2. The 15" PB hasn't been updated in 8 months, while new PBs and new standard technology (AirPort Extreme, etc.) have been introduced.
3. MacWhispers has the most recent report on the 970's pricing and an older report on a Powerbook 970.
4. The iBook needs to be updated (not another speed bump!), and that can't happen until the PB sees a major update.

There's more to point out, but just keep this in mind: You have more to lose in the long run if you buy a Powerbook now and it becomes outdated in three weeks. It's worth the wait even if you aren't sure Apple will release PB 970s.

Hope that helps!
-Pyro

3.1416

Jun 2, 2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by wilburpan
You would think that if information such as (paraphrasing) "pallets of new 15" Powerbooks are in warehouses ready to go" is available, then changes in pricing would also be at least hinted at in advance.

Not necessarily. By necessity a whole lot more people will have to know about the manufacture of new products than about pricing changes to existing products, so there's a greater chance of leaks.

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by 3.1416
Not necessarily. By necessity a whole lot more people will have to know about the manufacture of new products than about pricing changes to existing products, so there's a greater chance of leaks.

Those people probably get more excited about new products like we do, and think a price drop isn't a big deal, as if we're all waiting for the 970, it doesn't matter if the G4 is cheaper, as we don't want old tech!

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 03:42 PM

Here's the craziest idea, ever...

Perhaps Apple just want to sell us PowerBooks, only cheaper! :D :) :( :p :rolleyes: :eek: :confused:

toughboy

Jun 2, 2003, 03:45 PM

I was planing to buy a 12" iBook.. now I dont anymore... I dont care when the new processor will release, I'll buy this 15" baby in the summer!!....

vniow

Jun 2, 2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by gotohamish
Here's the craziest idea, ever...

Perhaps Apple just want to sell us PowerBooks, only cheaper! :D :) :( :p :rolleyes: :eek: :confused:

Brilliant Holmes!

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by gotohamish
Here's the craziest idea, ever...

Perhaps Apple just want to sell us PowerBooks, only cheaper! :D :) :( :p :rolleyes: :eek: :confused:
Cheaper? That doesn't sound at all like Apple...

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
Cheaper? That doesn't sound at all like Apple...

I know, I know... back on the medication for me!!

andyduncan

Jun 2, 2003, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by wilburpan
One of the curious things to me is not how much the next bump in Powerbook performance will be, but the fact that not a single Mac rumor site that I could find predicted this price drop.

You would think that if information such as (paraphrasing) "pallets of new 15" Powerbooks are in warehouses ready to go" is available, then changes in pricing would also be at least hinted at in advance.

A lot less people need to know about pricing information than need to know about an entire new product. It's fitting then that pricing information wouldn't surface as often as product specifications. Over the years this has been the case; even when rumors sites get the specs right, the prices are often absent.

smurphur

Jun 2, 2003, 04:07 PM

So I've just started reading a lot of this site in the past two weeks, because I want to get a mac and throw my PC away... So I don't know much of the history of Mac powerbook releases.

But I do see a problem with nspeds logic in saying that there will be no 970 update for the pb at WWDC.

What if Apple knew that the 17" pb was a select market that would spend that much money on a laptop, so they don't have a ton of overstock like say the 12" and 15". So it isn't in their best interest to discount the 17" at this time. Whereas they may have a ton of stock on the 12 and 15 models to get rid of before they update all the models.

I don't care either way, but I'm waiting till WWDC before even considering PB purchase just to see what suprises Apple has to offer.

As far as >1ghz G4 powerbooks, wouldn't that cause some nasty heat problems?

Abstract

Jun 2, 2003, 04:15 PM

Firstly, welcome to the site. :) I'm in the same boat as you --- we both want to be completely and permanently out of the Wintel world forever.

Secondly, you guys are right: where was MacBidouille to get the scoop on this news before even Jobs's mom. She's probably playing around with a 970 machine right now!!

*shakes fist in air*

tjwett

Jun 2, 2003, 04:17 PM

Dammit, I just bought my 12" 2 weeks ago with an Apple Loan. Think they'll front me the $200 difference since it was so close?

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by smurphur
So I've just started reading a lot of this site in the past two weeks, because I want to get a mac and throw my PC away... So I don't know much of the history of Mac powerbook releases.

But I do see a problem with nspeds logic in saying that there will be no 970 update for the pb at WWDC.

What if Apple knew that the 17" pb was a select market that would spend that much money on a laptop, so they don't have a ton of overstock like say the 12" and 15". So it isn't in their best interest to discount the 17" at this time. Whereas they may have a ton of stock on the 12 and 15 models to get rid of before they update all the models.

I don't care either way, but I'm waiting till WWDC before even considering PB purchase just to see what suprises Apple has to offer.

As far as >1ghz G4 powerbooks, wouldn't that cause some nasty heat problems?
The 17" PB is a select market, which is why the higher price is justified (graphics designers crave that screen real estate). There's no real reason for Apple to compromise the 17" PB's price when only certain people are going to buy one to begin with.

Depending on who you ask, there's a multitude of various explanations you'll receive for the Powerbook's heat issues. Some people swear it's the hard drive, others say it's the battery. But, the processor is definitely a factor. From what I've read, the lower speed PowerPC 970s (i.e. 1.2 GHz) use less power than the 1 GHz G4, thus creating less heat. The 970 would be a step in the right direction there.

BTW, congrats on ditching the PC (or at least planning to)! :)

andyduncan

Jun 2, 2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by smurphur
What if Apple knew that the 17" pb was a select market that would spend that much money on a laptop, so they don't have a ton of overstock like say the 12" and 15".

I think your're right. I feel the two equally-probable (and previously mentioned) explanations are:

(1) that the 15 inch PB is going to be updated with a new case, stay at 1ghz. In which case the 17 doesn't need to get a price drop because it will remain unchanged, while the 12's price must be dropped to make room for the 15.

(2) the entire PB line will be refreshed, the 15 receiving a new case and all three receiving new processors. Either slightly faster G4s or (less likely, i feel) the 970. The 17's price doesn't need to be dropped because it has been selling well, and the 12 needs to be dropped for the same reason as above.

Actually I think the first option is more likely. If Apple were to refresh the entire line, it would be the fastest PB refresh in recent memory (not counting the intro of the 12 and 17). Also, power consumption isn't the only consideration for putting a chip into a laptop. Even if the 970 draws less power, and is cheaper, would that bus be easily implemented in a notebook form factor? I'm not familiar with what is required for the 970's bus, but it's possible it is more difficult to implement in a small space than the G4. Though that might be offset by the fact that it doesn't have an L3 cache...

edit: grammar, hit submit instead of preview... doh

toughboy

Jun 2, 2003, 04:22 PM

heat... I'm considering that too...
maybe titanium will solve this question..
there is no reason for them to keep titanium otherwise...

gotohamish

Jun 2, 2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by andyduncan
I think your're right. I feel the two equally-probable (and previously mentioned) explanations are:

(1) that the 15 inch PB is going to be updated with a new case, stay at 1ghz. In which case the 17 doesn't need to get a price drop because it will remain unchanged, while the 12's price must be dropped to make room for the 15.

(2) the entire PB line will be refreshed, the 15 receiving a new case and all three receiving new processors. Either slightly faster G4s or (less likely, i feel) the 970. The 17's price doesn't need to be dropped because it has been selling well, and the 12 needs to be dropped for the same reason as above.

Actually I think the first option is more likely. If Apple were to refresh the entire line, it would be the fastest PB refresh in recent memory (not counting the intro of the 12 and 17). Also, power consumption isn't the only consideration for putting a chip into a laptop. Even if the 970 draws less power, and is cheaper, would that bus be easily implemented in a notebook form factor? I'm not familiar with what is required for the 970's bus, but it's possible it is more difficult to implement in a small space than the G4. Though that might be offset by the fact that it doesn't have an L3 cache...

edit: grammar, hit submit instead of preview... doh

I'd go for (1) personally.

skunk

Jun 2, 2003, 04:33 PM

I feel in my water that everything's going 970 imminently bar the iBook and the iMac.

ratspg

Jun 2, 2003, 04:35 PM

Apples current sales have always been the same....
1. Price reduction = speed bumped items.

Knowing apple, we will ALL be let down, if they come out with what... an overheating 1.2 G4 powerbook. They might pull a 'jack move' and trick us and toss in a 970. But enough speculation guys, jeez hehe.... how much of a thread can u have on lowered powerbook prices..... lol

if you want a powerbook... it does what you need, etc etc.. have the cash now? go get one.. the lowered em $200!

I think they are great as they are, 970s or whatever will come, if it comes out when you are ready to upgrade.... thumbs up for you :) :D

i hope its something new...but im not expectant like crazy... some ppl here are...

ozzie

Jun 2, 2003, 04:37 PM

Consider that the price cutting may be determined by country (the value of each currency). MacNN has a forum on Canadian and European prices.

The Canadian store has cut prices on ALL the PowerBooks AND on iBooks.

http://www.macnn.com/news/19624

rjstanford

Jun 2, 2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by tjwett
Dammit, I just bought my 12" 2 weeks ago with an Apple Loan. Think they'll front me the $200 difference since it was so close? Depends on when it shipped -- you've got 10 days from that point. Check out apple's website (http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/salespolicies.html#Apple%20Prices) for the whole scoop.(0)

-Richard

0 - Something generally worth doing when looking for official Apple policies rather than trusting the listMind here

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by ozzie
Consider that the price cutting may be determined by country (the value of each currency). MacNN has a forum on Canadian and European prices.

The Canadian store has cut prices on ALL the PowerBooks AND on iBooks.
iBooks, too? Interesting.

What this really looks like is a massive move to empty existing supplies of Powerbooks and iBooks, based on regional demand. This would support a theory that Apple plans on moving the Powerbook to 970s at WWDC, followed by a major iBook revision (GOBI or otherwise) afterwards.

Interesting...

chuckarc

Jun 2, 2003, 04:45 PM

I sold my 15" Powerbook a month ago and got around $2000 for it. I was gonna buy the 12" PB but the following things kept me from going ahead:

1) Memory Limits (640K C'mon)
2) Processor Speed (1GB or Bust)
3) No Lever 3 Cache
4) No Gigabit Ethernet
5) No PC Card Slot
6) Fire Wire 400
7) Generally mediocre reviews

If they bring the 12" specs in line with the current 15" then my decision is made. An 80GB Hard disk would be bad either. Also, don't be so quick to plop down cash for the 970. It will be buggy at the beginning and cause more headaches than it solves. WWDC is shaping up to be AWSOME. Panther and new PB's.....

-hh

Jun 2, 2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by nspeds
I think its a pretty big assumption to think the phrase "The year of the laptop" subsumed the inclusion of the 970 within powerbooks. I think its pretty safe to assume that the statement was more or less tailored for the SPECIFIC situation of the introduction of the 17 inch and 12 inch version...

Now, I thought about this logically, and came up with the following premises and their conclusions. I'll start the syllogism...
1) It has been previously established that when products from Apple are aggresively discounted, they are due to be discontinued/update.
2) The only products that have been discounted are the 12 and 15 inches.
Therefore: The 17 inch will NOT be updated.

However, people state the the reason the 17 hasn't been discounted is because its selling big, but I would argue that the 12 inch is selling even better since the target market is a lot bigger than the 17 inch...

Its an interesting can of worms.

First, I think that the 'Year of Laptop' bit does fit with the 970, although I do agree that there are odds to consider.

Second, while the 12" & 15" have been discounted and the 17" has not, and this does carry certain inferences, Apple does have a problem in how close its price points can be to each other.

Obviously, a price reduction will move inventory faster than at current. Similarly, if they want to increase their price spread, its pretty hard to do it by raising the top. If you can't raise the top, the only alternative is to lower the bottom. If this means (possibly only temporary) lower margins on the 12", so be it.

FWIW, while we can probably agree on the price cut on the 15", it is also possible that a price cut can occur on the 12" at this time because they've met certain production goals, and their vendors have shifted into a lower price tier (because setup costs have been recouped/whatever). This would allow Apple to cut price but maintain profit margin.

Now here is where the problem lies, although the 15 inch is the flagship machine, if BOTH the 12 inch and 15 inch get the 970 and the 17 inch don't, then what, the new 12 inches gain bragging rights over the 17 inch in terms of speed? That doesn't make sense.

Hence the 970 update for WWDC seems very unlikely.

Suppose that the 17" 970 *does* get released later this month. If this does happen, at what price point should it be?

Do we really think that Apple really has the luxury of asking nearly $4K for a laptop? I don't think so. They're boxed in in that they have to offer more performance at pretty much the same price points, so if they can't move the top up, there's no reason to cut this price today.

How many customer with a 17" on order will get upset if Apple offers them a 1.2GHz 970 at the same price? Zero, nada, zilch.

So if the 970 does come this month in laptops, having it in the 17" too isn't completely out of the question. It wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on the delivery times for 17" orders to see if they start to at a bit funny.

-hh

nspeds

Jun 2, 2003, 04:48 PM

Smurpher, you are completely right. I even put that line in my syllogism because I saw the flaw myself. The target market for the 17 inch is not that big, so apple can afford to make less/price more.

FINE, I will have to use my HP, oh the sadness, the hatred.

There better be a nice update at WWDC or I'm going to throw the HP against the wall (not like I need a bad conference for that to occur;) )

-hh

Jun 2, 2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by chuckarc
I sold my 15" Powerbook a month ago and got around $2000 for it. I was gonna buy the 12" PB but the following things kept me from going ahead:

1) Memory Limits (640K C'mon)
2) Processor Speed (1GB or Bust)
3) No Lever 3 Cache
4) No Gigabit Ethernet
5) No PC Card Slot
6) Fire Wire 400
7) Generally mediocre reviews

Don't forget:

8) Drops to run at 533MHz when on battery power.

-hh

bertagert

Jun 2, 2003, 04:54 PM

Heres the deal:

Its completely possible that Apple will put a 970 in the powerbook lineup very soon. Maybe across the whole line. They also maybe putting 970's in the powermac line at the same time.

For all the naysayers out there, Apple MUST increase the speed of their computers! They are seriously behind in speed. That is a fact and everyone knows it. I really don't understand how people can say its not possible to put these processors in all the highend systems at the same time. Actually, they must do it or more people are going to switch to windows/intel because the systems are just that much faster.

There is just no way Apple will release a 1 ghz G4 in the 15" powerbook (unless its a 970 1 ghz). If they did, it would be saying that Apple needed 6 months to figure out how to get basically the same system out of a TiBook and into a Albook.

Apple DOES NOT have time anymore. They MUST get faster processors in their systems. Apple knows this and so do you.

So, no more talk about the 970 or whatever not being in the new powerbooks/macs in the next 2 - 3 months. Its going to happen. If it doesn't, you'll see a lot of pro's switching to win/intel.

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by bertagert
For all the naysayers out there, Apple MUST increase the speed of their computers!
You're completely right. Apple really needs to push power ahead, or we're all screwed. :(

blueBomber

Jun 2, 2003, 05:16 PM

this further complicates my next purchase... should I go for the 12" 900 ibook, or the 12" alPB? The price is just too close to have a clear cut winner. Any takers on giving a suggestion? (i'm looking for performance comparisons here)

richard5mith

Jun 2, 2003, 05:19 PM

970 Powerbooks at WWDC? (any model)

Not. A. Chance.

If I'm wrong, you have my permission to eat my dog. :)

(And no, I don't have any "inside knowledge")

toughboy

Jun 2, 2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
You're completely right. Apple really needs to push power ahead, or we're all screwed. :(

with the new M tech. of intel, maybe the mac-lover consumers will go on using the macs, but the professionals and pre-switchers will turn to wintel-micro$oft side if Apple will not upgrade their processors..

expecting a rise in processors soon or a 970 could be better even!...

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by richard5mith
970 Powerbooks at WWDC? (any model)

Not. A. Chance.

If I'm wrong, you have my permission to eat my dog. :)

(And no, I don't have any "inside knowledge")
I'm more of a "beef" person, but I get your drift...
BTW, I hear it tastes like chicken...

Mr. G4

Jun 2, 2003, 05:39 PM

gwangung

Jun 2, 2003, 05:48 PM

For all the naysayers out there, Apple MUST increase the speed of their computers!

Desktops, for sure. But less so for laptops, where the gap isn't nearly as bad....

Mr. G4

Jun 2, 2003, 05:48 PM

I think this price reduction combined with the rumor from MacPlus we will have new line up of two different family of processor like before.

PowerMac and PowerBook will get 970
iMac, eMac and iBook will get G4

Wouldn't that be sweet g4 line for under $1000 without screen:p

bertagert

Jun 2, 2003, 06:02 PM

Just in from cnet (http://news.com.com/2100-1044_3-1012074.html?tag=fd_top):
"We said in January (that 2003) is going to be the year of the notebook, and it is looking like that is the case," said Greg Joswiak, a vice president at the Cupertino, Calif.-based Mac maker. Company CEO Steve Jobs made that proclamation at Macworld Expo, when he introduced the 12-inch and 17-inch PowerBooks.

Joswiak said that Apple has not seen a drop in laptop sales and that the price cuts were planned.

"We want to get to a point where we are selling as many notebooks as desktops, and you need to do some stuff to make that happen," he said. Notebooks make up about 42 percent of all Macs sold, well above the PC industry average of a 25 percent ratio of laptops to desktops sold, Joswiak said.

As for the 17-inch model, Joswiak said the company has more or less caught up with an order backlog, and the laptop is still seeing strong sales.

Jupiter Research analyst Michael Gartenberg said that it makes sense to cut the prices on the 12-inch and 15-inch models, now that they are no longer brand-new. Also, 15-inch models have become more standard in the industry than they were when Apple introduced the Titanium PowerBook at the beginning of 2001.

"In a market where prices are always coming down, it just makes an awful lot of sense for Apple to do this," he said.

Gartenberg said that although the Mac maker does not have the cheapest models on the market, it offers a good value for what you get.

"It's always been the case that if you were looking for the lowest-priced laptop you could do better than Apple's offerings, but these price cuts bring them even further into line with competitors," he said.

stompy

Jun 2, 2003, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by richard5mith
970 Powerbooks at WWDC? (any model)

Not. A. Chance.

If I'm wrong, you have my permission to eat my dog. :)

I'll thow in too: if Apple announces a 970 PB at WWDC, you have my permission to eat my neighbor's dog.

Crossing my fingers :p

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by stompy
I'll thow in too: if Apple announces a 970 PB at WWDC, you have my permission to eat my neighbor's dog.

Crossing my fingers :p
I hope that isn't your normal diet! I hear dogs are very high in cholesterol...

freundt

Jun 2, 2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by nspeds
I think its a pretty big assumption to think the phrase "The year of the laptop" subsumed the inclusion of the 970 within powerbooks. I think its pretty safe to assume that the statement was more or less tailored for the SPECIFIC situation of the introduction of the 17 inch and 12 inch version. I make new years resolutions and probably follow it for 3 months but I don't remember all of them today.

Now, I thought about this logically, and came up with the following premises and their conclusions. I'll start the syllogism...
1) It has been previously established that when products from Apple are aggresively discounted, they are due to be discontinued/update.
2) The only products that have been discounted are the 12 and 15 inches.
Therefore: The 17 inch will NOT be updated.

However, people state the the reason the 17 hasn't been discounted is because its selling big, but I would argue that the 12 inch is selling even better since the target market is a lot bigger than the 17 inch. (I may have to think about that statement, because if the target market of the 17 inch is smaller than the 12 inch, then you could still call the 17 inch "successful" per se since its hit Apple expectations. But I think in a comparison with 12 inch sales, the 12 inch out numbers"

Hence, if you think things through correctly, the rumormills will be telling you that the PowerBooks WILL have the 970. However, if you look at things syllogistically, that means that IF a PowerBook is updated to the 970, it will ONLY be the 12 and 15 inch models, being that the 17 wasn't discounted and hence is not likely to be updated.

Now here is where the problem lies, although the 15 inch is the flagship machine, if BOTH the 12 inch and 15 inch get the 970 and the 17 inch don't, then what, the new 12 inches gain bragging rights over the 17 inch in terms of speed? That doesn't make sense.

Hence the 970 update for WWDC seems very unlikely.

did you ever think it could be because there are very few 17" in the channel and therefore they do not need to clear the 17" models out like they do the 15 and 12"???

AppleMatt

Jun 2, 2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by tjwett
Dammit, I just bought my 12" 2 weeks ago with an Apple Loan. Think they'll front me the $200 difference since it was so close?

Argue that its only 4 days difference from the 10 day limit, and then argue that you are paying with an Apple loan, so giving them more cash anyway. Argue it well, and there's a good chance they'll be nice.

chuckarc said "drops to 533MHz on battery". Learn how to use OS X.

-hh said "maximum 640 RAM". Look up developer notes.

Sorry for the curtness on these two points but it really annoys me when people have information infront of them (these forums), but choose to ignore it.

AppleMatt

OT but could someone slip in what devices could be used with a PC card slot on the 12 please? I can think of none and it's bugging me.

kristianm

Jun 2, 2003, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Mr. G4
So why would they discount it in Europe??? Is there more demand in the USA than in Europe for the 17"?

All i can say is that here in Norway the low end powerbook is a shocking 60% more expensive than it should be. Some of that is due to our high sales tax (24%) but still...

stompy

Jun 2, 2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
I hope that isn't your normal diet! I hear dogs are very high in cholesterol...

But they're very low in saturated fat! Pet Diner Weekly thinks very highly of dogs, rating them a 9 out of a possible 10.

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Mr. G4
So why would they discount it in Europe??? Is there more demand in the USA than in Europe for the 17"?
Yeah, probably. The 17" Powerbook is targeted at graphic designers, particularly ones that travel. While I don't have any data, that just sounds like a more American market.

stompy

Jun 2, 2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by AppleMatt

OT but could someone slip in what devices could be used with a PC card slot on the 12 please? I can think of none and it's bugging me. [/B]

I don't currently have any use for a PCCard, but some heavy digital camera users insist on using a PC Card compact flash reader. (They're say they're cheaper, smaller, faster than usb, firewire readers.)

Another group, who have fried their built in FireWire port (and no longer have AppleCare) like them too.

Still others (YMMV) like to think that the slot extends the life of a portable, because if something new comes along, you're not forced to get a newer machine. Or maybe the thing isn't even on the newest machine (USB 2.0 ?)

Dave K

Jun 2, 2003, 07:34 PM

What this really looks like is a massive move to empty existing supplies of Powerbooks and iBooks, based on regional demand. This would support a theory that Apple plans on moving the Powerbook to 970s at WWDC, followed by a major iBook revision (GOBI or otherwise) afterwards.
AND
Originally posted by Mr. G4
So why would they discount it in Europe???
Sorry, there's really a simple reason. Like most other currencies, the EURO, Aus$, and CDN$ have all risen against a weakening US$ and prices have been adjusted accordingly (although some in various regions would say not enough)...

For example, the CDN$ has jumped almost 10 cents relative to the US$ since January, and we saw larger price reductions when the iBooks were relaunched at ~+5 cents earlier this spring. But, they had to adjust the iBooks again now to keep them from being overlapped by the newly reduced PB's that were adjusted to the 10 cent jump and dropped about 600 each...

mstecker

Jun 2, 2003, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by -hh
Don't forget:

8) Drops to run at 533MHz when on battery power.

-hh

Bzzt! Wrong answer! A user can choose to have the processor speed drop as a power-saving option, but it will happily run at full speed while on battery power.

centauratlas

Jun 2, 2003, 07:56 PM

I guess I can finally replace my PB170. ;-)

Hattig

Jun 2, 2003, 08:09 PM

I see several options

1) costs for the laptops have dropped (cheaper displays and components), and Apple are passing them along, because frankly, they have to if they wish to remain competitive in the laptop market. In fact, I was surprised that the price was so static for so long ...

2) Apple are going to launch new Powerbooks soon, and they are clearing out stock

3) A combination of 1 and 2.

The 17" PB is already using the new style casing. The new 15.4" PB will be upgraded to the same style (albeit smaller, of course!).

I think it is 50/50 whether we see 970 based laptops in the next update, or faster G4's (based upon the latest G4's from Motorola that should run faster and cooler, if they have managed to make any of them). However, the 970 does have space efficiency - no L3 cache is required on the motherboard. It is also rumoured to be cheaper than the G4. It is also more powerful, even at the same clockspeed.

So optimistically:

12" PB: 1.0 GHz 970 (ultra-low power bin)
15" PB: 1.2 GHz 970
17" PB: 1.2 GHz 970

Most likely:

12" PB: 1.0 GHz G4 [7447]
15" PB: 1.2 GHz G4 [7457] + L3 cache
17" PB: 1.2 GHz G4 [7457] + L3 cache

Worst case (unlikely):

12": same
15": same, but with newer enclosure and updated chipset, etc, to match 17" specs
17": same

I expect that regardless, the 15.4" and the 17" PB will both use the same motherboard.

centauratlas

Jun 2, 2003, 08:12 PM

>state-of-the-art (so to speak) 64-bit processor in it.<

And you KNOW that Steve Jobs and Apple love to be able to say things like "the 1st portable with 17 inch screen" or with AirPort extreme or "the largest number of Unix systems shipped" or any number of other things.

To me this points to the fact that once Apple is able to switch to the 970 they are going to want to do it quickly everywhere in the PowerMac/PowerBook lines in order to "be the first with a 64-bit processor in a portable."

Whether that means in June of this year is open, but I believe that (particularly if the cost comparisions between IBM and Motorola processors are true) Apple will be pushing to have another first - a 64-bit processor in a portable.

Shoot if they *can* get the 970 at a lower price than the G4 they'll use it ASAP.

The Ancients

Jun 2, 2003, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by stompy
But they're very low in saturated fat! Pet Diner Weekly thinks very highly of dogs, rating them a 9 out of a possible 10.

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
I hope that isn't your normal diet! I hear dogs are very high in cholesterol..

Yes, I see Kentucky Fried Kitten only rated a 6 with them...

AidenShaw

Jun 2, 2003, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by centauratlas
[B"be the first with a 64-bit processor in a portable."[/B]

Too late, Alpha and SPARC 64-bit portables have been around for many years.

Of course, that fact won't stop Apple from *claiming* to be first, if their past history at marketing honesty is any clue....

pyrotoaster

Jun 2, 2003, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Too late, Alpha and SPARC 64-bit portables have been around for many years.

Of course, that fact won't stop Apple from *claiming* to be first, if their past history at marketing honesty is any clue....
While that's true, how many people actually own an Alpha portable?

AidenShaw

Jun 2, 2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
While that's true, how many people actually own an Alpha portable?

Exactly the kind of wishy-washy thinking that'll be used to justify an Apple ad that says "first". If even one Alpha laptop was sold, then Apple is not first, period. And that's not the case, there were quite a few, and now the same group is selling 64-bit SPARC laptops.

(Check out http://216.92.115.22/exec.php?p=prod-note-sparc for 64-bit laptops with 4GiB of RAM, 160GB of disk, dual NICs, ....)

Anyway, to even stretch the truth and say "first", Apple will need a 64-bit operating system and some 64-bit applications.

On the other hand, a PPC970 in 32-bit mode will be be a huge improvement from the current G4s. (Unless, of course, the stories that the PPC970 has no power management capabilities are true...)

stompy

Jun 2, 2003, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by The Ancients
Yes, I see Kentucky Fried Kitten only rated a 6 with them...

LOL :p

benoda

Jun 2, 2003, 10:11 PM

I imagine that if Apple tries to claim to be the first 64-bit portable the statement will have some sort of qualifier like "first consumer 64-bit..." etc.

Panther

Jun 2, 2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by benoda
I imagine that if Apple tries to claim to be the first 64-bit portable the statement will have some sort of qualifier like "first consumer 64-bit..." etc. I don't care what they claim... I want one :D

Golem

Jun 2, 2003, 11:42 PM

Well compared to a month ago the price in Australia has dropped.

$900 from the 12'' and $1200 from the 867 15''

But also $700 from the 17''??. These changes may have happened earlier this month as I am comparing to the 28/4/2003 pricelist but the rrp on the towers is still identical to a month ago so it is not likely to be as a result of exchange rate changes.

As for 970 pb it seems unlikely to be here before or at the same time as 970 tower. Mind you I am hoping for a small rev at least, as I am currently in the market and just waiting for the 15'' al book and a 1.2mhz rev would be nice.

maradong

Jun 3, 2003, 12:33 AM

WOW :D
apple has lowered the price of the 17'' PB in germany by some 500 E...
That s so great. in fact the full equiped 17 costs now as much as the full equiped 15 before ... so cool :D
the 15 has gone down for 600E and the 12 inch for 500 as well.
thanks apple for balancing the prices. thx so much from me :D
Dudes i m happy. that means i can get an Pod 30 gig for free :D

UltimaMAC

Jun 3, 2003, 02:46 AM

im kind of sore that i payed full for the 12" when it launched, i am thinking of trading it for any 15" i can get my hands on. what a hard decision......

walexx

Jun 3, 2003, 03:08 AM

The aussie prices only change when the US prices change, or when there is a new product.

In other words the towers will remain the same until they are updated then the price will change with the exchange rate taken into account.

I have been monitoring aussie prices for a year now, and everytime apple updates/upgrades etc, thats when our prices adjust. With our dollar soaring up the charts, this has helped with the massive drop in the 15" powerbook price.

If you notice now, the apple aussie prices are around double, or just under double the U.S. prices, which is great compared to a year a go. Towers and the like willl drop when new models are released.

Just think around a year a go or so in Aust, you would have bought a 12" ibook for what you are now paying for a 15" powerbook, thats how dramatic our prices have come down. Our exchange rate has a lot to do with the price drops, and if it keeps going up, everytime there is a new product announced our prices will then adjust accordingly, and chances are they will drop, even if the US prices remain the same, or even go up.

ZildjianKX

Jun 3, 2003, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by bertagert
Apple DOES NOT have time anymore. They MUST get faster processors in their systems. Apple knows this and so do you.

I don't know what the freak'n deal is, a new P4 processor comes out, there is already a motherboard developed for it and you can buy it immediately... the 970s are done... and they're still not in Macs... and people wonder why Macs lag behind Wintels...

gotohamish

Jun 3, 2003, 03:14 AM

The prices have been lowered on the UK Education Apple Store now.

This is great - roll on 12" Rev2. Hopefully with FW800.

reflex

Jun 3, 2003, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by nspeds
1) It has been previously established that when products from Apple are aggresively discounted, they are due to be discontinued/update.
2) The only products that have been discounted are the 12 and 15 inches.
Therefore: The 17 inch will NOT be updated.

The price of the 17" has been updated, or at least it has been in Belgium (used to be > €4000, now it's €3871).

will

Jun 3, 2003, 03:37 AM

Originally posted by kristianm
All i can say is that here in Norway the low end powerbook is a shocking 60% more expensive than it should be. Some of that is due to our high sales tax (24%) but still...

I have done a price comparison of Apple hardware for some countries in another thread http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=370350#post370350

reflex

Jun 3, 2003, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by UltimaMAC
im kind of sore that i payed full for the 12" when it launched, i am thinking of trading it for any 15" i can get my hands on. what a hard decision......

If you buy stuff when it's just been introduced, you know you're going to pay a premium (at least with computers). At least you've had and used it for about 4 months.

maradong

Jun 3, 2003, 04:08 AM

Originally posted by UltimaMAC
im kind of sore that i payed full for the 12" when it launched, i am thinking of trading it for any 15" i can get my hands on. what a hard decision......
why to do that?
the pb 12 is a wonderful machine. it is not a matter being top of the line all the time. the pb 12 should be able to do all your work in the next lets say 2 - 3 years. I don t see why to change it against a 15'..

ac2102

Jun 3, 2003, 04:34 AM

Just a thought, but are these discounts (temporary) or are they considered to be 'prices'.

All i mean by this is that normally updates to products come in at around the same price as the previous models. So if these prices are set, surely the anticipated replacements would have to fit in the same price band.

maradong

Jun 3, 2003, 05:05 AM

Originally posted by ac2102
Just a thought, but are these discounts (temporary) or are they considered to be 'prices'.

All i mean by this is that normally updates to products come in at around the same price as the previous models. So if these prices are set, surely the anticipated replacements would have to fit in the same price band.
i think they are quite definitive. if it would be a temp reduction, they would post that somewhere, and announce it bigger , so that more people are using the occaision, during the time the lower price exists.

ac2102

Jun 3, 2003, 05:14 AM

Surely then it makes sense to wait until the new models are released? Makes no sense to buy a model at this price when it seems that the prices have only been lowered to make way for new models for the same money!

If any of that makes sense!

Having said that, before i discoverd this site, i would probably snap up an offer like this without batting an eyelid! Now i know better!

Panther

Jun 3, 2003, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by ac2102
Surely then it makes sense to wait until the new models are released? Makes no sense to buy a model at this price when it seems that the prices have only been lowered to make way for new models for the same money!

If any of that makes sense!

Having said that, before i discoverd this site, i would probably snap up an offer like this without batting an eyelid! Now i know better! I think it is precisely because they don't want people to wait that they have introduced these reductions in a fairly low key way...

Its funny... when it was first rumored that 970s would start out in the PowerBooks folks scoffed, but its certainly looking that way now.

The more interesting question now is whether they'll announced the PowerMac at the same time or if that will lag a little.

I've gotta think that would be beating any recent MacWorld for sheer scale of product announcements... not that I'm complainining :D

psyke

Jun 3, 2003, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by walexx
The aussie prices only change when the US prices change, or when there is a new product.
[...]
If you notice now, the apple aussie prices are around double, or just under double the U.S. prices, which is great compared to a year a go. Towers and the like willl drop when new models are released.

Check out what actually happened down here:
Model Price effective change
iBooks
12" 800MHz CD-ROM AU$1849 US$0.5403 -7.5%
12" 900MHz Combo AU$2399 US$0.5415 -7.7%
14" 900MHz Combo AU$2795 US$0.5363 -6.8%
14" 900MHz Ultimate AU$3295 US$0.5396 -7.2%

Powerbooks
Al 12" 867MHz Combo AU$3099 US$0.5160 -22.4%
Al 12" 867MHz Super AU$3499 US$0.5141 -20.9%
Ti 15" 867MHz Combo AU$3799 US$0.5262 -23.9%
Ti 15" 1GHz Super AU$4899 US$0.5305 -18.3%
Al 17" 1GHz Ultimate AU$6299 US$0.5237 -10%

Bear in mind now that the Aussie dollar has been buying around US$0.6500 for the past few weeks and this is the best local rate that we get from Apple Australia.

It seems to me that if you take the US List price, convert at the current rate and mark up 20% then that is quite close to our local Apple price list.

20%!

Comet

Jun 3, 2003, 06:46 AM

With the prices of the powerbooks coming down, so did the iBooks. I jut purchased mine 4 weeks ago. I was wondering if I can expect some kind of refund cause the price went down in less then 30 days. If i knew that the prices were going to come down, I would have waited, as the 1000 gap between the ibook and powerbook didn't justify for me to go with the powerbook, but now, I would definately go for it!!

Panther

Jun 3, 2003, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by Comet
With the prices of the powerbooks coming down, so did the iBooks. I jut purchased mine 4 weeks ago. I was wondering if I can expect some kind of refund cause the price went down in less then 30 days. If i knew that the prices were going to come down, I would have waited, as the 1000 gap between the ibook and powerbook didn't justify for me to go with the powerbook, but now, I would definately go for it!! I feel for you. I was pretty pissed when Apple knocked $1200 off the PowerMac dual 1.2 I'd bought just last November, and released a new faster, better PowerMac with Bluetooth :mad:

allpar

Jun 3, 2003, 07:59 AM

There is some justification and history to reducing the price of old models before coming out with new ones...the Mac Plus kept going down as the SE took over its spot, though the two co-existed. More recently, there have been price cuts to herald new machines. The IIvx was a badly handled one that stung a lot of people - it was over $3,000 one day, then under $2,000 the next...it went from being a really expensive machine to a budget machine in short order.

They really should lower the price of the current desktops in steps before coming out with replacements.

Which reminds me, wouldn't they EOL the towers if the 970 was due in only three weeks? Or at least cut the prices on them? Makes ya think the 970 will show up at the absolute top end, so they'll just bump the others down a peg.

-hh

Jun 3, 2003, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by AppleMatt
chuckarc said "drops to 533MHz on battery". Learn how to use OS X.

-hh said "maximum 640 RAM". Look up developer notes.

Sorry for the curtness on these two points but it really annoys me when people have information infront of them (these forums), but choose to ignore it.[/B]

FYI, you got those quotes transposed. How annoying :-)

My point with the 533Mhz is to hightlight it because the average Joe is simply not aware of it.

Are you going to dispute that it is the default setting?

Personally, I appreciate clock-cycling technologies to extend battery life.

But what I don't appreciate is when all of these various tricks and games are used when making the battery's baseline performance claim: I consider that to be bordering on CONSUMER FRAUD.

Yes, I know that "everyone" does it. But that still doesn't make it right (ethics). As far as I'm concerned, a claim of a "4 hour" battery is predicated at the laptop running at full numbercrunching performance, unless you're going to be fully upfront and sell it as a 866/533MHz PC.

OT but could someone slip in what devices could be used with a PC card slot on the 12 please? I can think of none and it's bugging me.

A PC card slot is useful for installing a "Common Access Card" reader in a laptop, to support secure & encrypted email in MS-Outlook and similar systems.

For desktop systems, the standard CAC reader is COM1 or USB based, and is a "dongle" like device. The one I have installed is made by SCM Systems (scmmicro.com). Apple doesn't offer the hardware on their website, but they do offer the driver software, although it is very well hidden on their website (Store/Gov/Fed/Special Products). Its $49.95 and it is Apple Part# M9107LL/A.

-hh

jxyama

Jun 3, 2003, 08:22 AM

battery life is listed as "up to x hours" and NOT "x hours."

it's an industry practice. get over it. it's the same deal when you get a 10 GB iPod, you get less than 10 GB of storage because there are two different conventions for memory capacity.

UltiMAC: Listen to what you are saying:

"I am sore I paid the full price for a brand new product..."

You always pay the full price for a brand new product. If it was discounted from the getgo, that's the first full price. There's no past prices to compare to, so whatever the first price is attached to the product is the "full" price.

Comet: If you got your iBook from Apple, they only price match for 10 days. There'll always be someone who's just a day or two out of the price matching window...

One month for a computer is a pretty long time. If a computer is considered "useful" for 3 years and a car, 6 years, would you consider a two months old car with 2,000+ miles on it "just" bought to the point you'd expect a matching discount? Just a thought... I know how you feel, but I don't think much can be done...

jxyama

Jun 3, 2003, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by allpar
They really should lower the price of the current desktops in steps before coming out with replacements.

Which reminds me, wouldn't they EOL the towers if the 970 was due in only three weeks? Or at least cut the prices on them?

there are many Power Macs listed in the refurb section...

allpar

Jun 3, 2003, 08:37 AM

I assumed that was a quality issue...!

Dave K

Jun 3, 2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by Golem
but the rrp on the towers is still identical to a month ago so it is not likely to be as a result of exchange rate changes.

From what I've seen, Apple has only adjusted local pricing downwards upon either a reduction in US pricing, or a new product launch. Even when they adjusted when the 900 iBooks were released here in Canada, they only bounced those down in price and left everything else in the store alone.

Which is a bit annoying...

AppleMatt

Jun 3, 2003, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by -hh
FYI, you got those quotes transposed. How annoying :-)

Whoooops...sorry about that, it's trying to negotiate many threads again, I should stick to one. (I originally put "to the poster who said", but then deceided it was rude :))

My point with the 533Mhz is to hightlight it because the average Joe is simply not aware of it.
Perhaps not, but I'm sure that eventually, they will stumble across it. Personally when I get a new machine I'm looking at every single file, check box and hack I can get at, but I realise not everyone is as interested (or sad) as me.

I see your point on the advertisement, of battery life at least, but I think everyone takes it with a pinch of salt. Catalytic converters only work in cars when they've reached 150/240 oC, do car companies advertise "catalytic converter...greatly reduces harmful emmissions...um...only on long journeys though. cough."?

Thanks for the PC card ideas, also to the other poster (not risking messing up names again!)

Security devices is a good idea, one that I hadn't thought of.

AppleMatt

jxyama

Jun 3, 2003, 09:16 AM

i *think* refurbs listed on the Apple Online store is not always a refurb...

example: i remember lowest end 700 MHz iBooks coming up in the refurb section after they were speed bumped to 800 MHz. these could be:

1) brand new, never delivered
2) brand new, delivered then returned unopened during the 10 day policy
3) delivered, opened and returned during the 10 day policy

i know many of us who visit a site such as MR would definitely return a machine if upgraded within 10 days of purchase, but i am not so sure about "average" consumers. i'm kind of tempted to think that they wouldn't bother checking... so maybe many of these refurbs fall under category 1) and are actually brand new...

they got the same warranty as a brand new machine. so i think they are a good deal whether they are sparkling clean brand new or not... Just my opinion.

allpar

Jun 3, 2003, 09:26 AM

Thanks for the clarification.

Guess I'll wait three weeks and if no 970s are announced...will snap up a 1 GHz $1300...

cdburrows

Jun 3, 2003, 11:16 AM

while the UK has just received reductions today... £100...

The gap between US and UK prices increase as it is now £300 of a price difference that is $490!

In the US I am sure you could bye a computer for that...

-hh

Jun 3, 2003, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by jxyama
battery life is listed as "up to x hours" and NOT "x hours."

Sure, but its called fraud when the consumer can not reasonably achieve the advertised claim.

FWIW, my business Laptop is a Sony VAIO (505 something) and I've never gotten anywhere even close to their "up to" battery life claims, no matter what settings I've tried. Its more than merely "damn annoying" to only get ~1 hour from a "3 hour" battery. Suffice to say that we're not buying any more Sony's.

-hh

bertagert

Jun 3, 2003, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by -hh
FWIW, my business Laptop is a Sony VAIO (505 something) and I've never gotten anywhere even close to their "up to" battery life claims, no matter what settings I've tried.

I get 8 1/2 hours out of my new ipod. Thats with it running all day, flipping through songs and using the back light. So, mine gets better battery life than claimed. But lets get back to the topic.

jxyama

Jun 3, 2003, 12:38 PM

-hh

nothing in the specs says you'll get the battery life up to x hours (implying it's the upper limit) under "regular" use. it's a MAXIMUM. if a laptop achieved the max. battery life under regular use, it's not really the maximum, is it?

since "regular use" would be different for everyone, it would really make some users with more demanding "regular" use mad if the advertisement said "x hours under regular usage" and they didn't get it. it's far safer for the companies to list the max. they reasonably achieve and assume that people understand the conditions it was achieved under.

besides, if only apple advertised the typical battery life (instead of the max.), other companies would grab that information and run with it.

i think calling it a fraud would be a bit strong. i see your point and frustration, but i don't think it's worth fuming over...

btw, i've gotten as much as 4.5 hours on my 12" PB (with an advertised max. of 5) when i used very light apps, not much HD access, no wireless and screen dimmed.
how long have you had your vaio? battery performance degrades quite noticeably, you know?

mxpiazza

Jun 3, 2003, 06:45 PM

so everyone can stop their guessing, the reason why the 17" price wasn't dropped is stated in this CNN article:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech/06/03/apple.prices.reut/index.html

in short: ..."Joswiak said that Apple did not cut the price of the 17-inch PowerBook because it was still a good value at that cost.

"It's going strong at that price," Joswiak said. "It's been selling very well." "

hope this clears some stuff up...

i'm waiting for my 15" 970! BTW... has anyone been over to the education store lately? if you buy a laptop and iPod together by Sept. 23rd, you get a mail in rebate for $200... that's a sweet deal, considering the substantial discounts you're already getting in the education store.

-hh

Jun 4, 2003, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by jxyama
nothing in the specs says you'll get the battery life up to x hours (implying it's the upper limit) under "regular" use. it's a MAXIMUM. if a laptop achieved the max. battery life under regular use, it's not really the maximum, is it?

This discussion is very much like debating automotive MPG.

Particularly since before the EPA published how the MPG test was to be run, various manufacturers were free to define their MPG test however they liked, and some "cheated" in order to claim high benchmarks.

One classic example from circa 1970 was a Volkswagon TV advertisement for their Beetle (the original one) where they showed how they were able to get it to achieve 80+ MPG. They then said that that while that test was technically true, it was highly unrealistic, closed the ad with the statement of "An HONEST 30mpg" (sic).

In Computers, there have been "oddities" found in various benchmarks, including some video card manufacturers who specifically optimized their chipsets for known benchmarks, even when this was found to hurt real-world performance.

We have the same problem today with Laptops. From my casual obserations, it appears that many "battery life" tests are nothing more than playing DVD movies, with 90% of the systems in hibernation.

since "regular use" would be different for everyone...

Sure. But the problem with power conservation measures (such as the clock cyling on the 12" Powerbook & others) is that ethically, this is a slippery slope: once you start making "cheats", at what point do you stop?

For example, I saw a news report ~6 months ago in which it was revealed that a laptop manufacturer found that in order to make the claim of "watch the Matrix twice on one charge", they had to turn off essentially ALL of the processes, including much the OS.

So with such insight, can we at least agree that any battery life claim has to at least have the entire OS up and running?

i think calling it a fraud would be a bit strong. i see your point and frustration, but i don't think it's worth fuming over...

Sure. My point is that if we don't complain, then they don't know that its something that's making us upset. The only good news here is that Apple is pretty much the "least bad" of the laptop manufacturers IMO in this regards.

-hh

jxyama

Jun 4, 2003, 08:30 AM

-hh

yeah, agree with you on most counts. perhaps computer vendors can (simultaneously) come up with a certain standard operations and show the battery life on that. (playing dvd with a default player, ripping a cd, surfing the web, etc., something consumers can relate to.)

i liked how iPod ad clearly states what standards they used for the number of songs capacity. (128 kbps, 4 min. per song.)

andyduncan

Jun 9, 2003, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by jxyama
-hh

yeah, agree with you on most counts. perhaps computer vendors can (simultaneously) come up with a certain standard operations and show the battery life on that.

Hmm, i see a new type of relative metric being birthed here. Others of this type:

# of olympic sized swimming pools that could be filled by <something>.

# of <time increments> said pool would take to be filled with <some flow>.

# of libraries of congress that can fit on a <storage media>/be transferred per <time unit>.

# of <items> that could fit on the head of a pin.

# of times light could travel around the world while <occurance> takes place.

# of years it would take all the computers in the world, working in unison, to solve <some problem>.

<some fraction/multiple> of distance to the moon <some stack> would reach.

# of rods to the hog's-head a <vehicle> can acheive. (potentially meaningful only to Abe Simpson).

Apple had a print ad when the tibook came out claiming you could watch Austin Powers twice before the battery ran out. so I propose a new metric:

# of times you could play <some crappy movie> on <some portable> on a single charge.

This is incredibly important information for armchair speculation. I mean, we all know how many hours you can power a tv with the energy saved from recycling a single aluminum can...

allpar

Jun 9, 2003, 08:12 AM

Number of Rhode Islands this is the size of.

allpar

Jun 9, 2003, 08:15 AM

Its more than merely "damn annoying" to only get ~1 hour from a "3 hour" battery. Suffice to say that we're not buying any more Sony's.

To be fair, Sony Vaios are pretty darned sturdy for non-Apple lightweights of 3 lb or so. I think you'll find if you strip out all the video and Firewire software it runs a lot longer. First thing I do on a new Vaio is spend about half an hour removing the free goodies they provide - because the people in my company don't do video editing. If I had a choice, I'd get ibooks for everyone...or those 12" machines. But it's Wintel-only so they can bellyache about how their computer crashed while on the raod and they wasted x hours getting it back...or lost everything.

andyduncan

Jun 9, 2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by allpar
Number of Rhode Islands this is the size of.

nice. forgot about that one.

Panther

Jun 9, 2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by andyduncan
Hmm, i see a new type of relative metric being birthed here. Others of this type:

# of olympic sized swimming pools that could be filled by <something>.

# of <time increments> said pool would take to be filled with <some flow>.

# of libraries of congress that can fit on a <storage media>/be transferred per <time unit>.

# of <items> that could fit on the head of a pin.

# of times light could travel around the world while <occurance> takes place.

# of years it would take all the computers in the world, working in unison, to solve <some problem>.

<some fraction/multiple> of distance to the moon <some stack> would reach.

# of rods to the hog's-head a <vehicle> can acheive. (potentially meaningful only to Abe Simpson).

Apple had a print ad when the tibook came out claiming you could watch Austin Powers twice before the battery ran out. so I propose a new metric:

# of times you could play <some crappy movie> on <some portable> on a single charge.

This is incredibly important information for armchair speculation. I mean, we all know how many hours you can power a tv with the energy saved from recycling a single aluminum can... There's also...

# of <item> that can fit into a VW Beetle

or back in the day...

# of times <computer> is faster than the original IBM PC AT, or in this crowd # of times <computer> is faster than the original Mac of '84