network ghosts

[sunsnewmac]

I've just set up a wireless home network with MacBook and 2 PCs. Internet is seamless for all computers. File sharing and general networking is very buggy.
PCa and PCb can always see each other fine and share files
PCb and Mac were once communicating but PCa and Mac could not see each other on the network at all.
After disabling a firewall I fixed the problem between PCa and Mac so they could finally see each other on the network. But literally as soon as that was fixed, PCb disappeared from the Network section on the Mac, and PCb can't see Mac either! I didn't even touch PCb in the process or touch anything related to that on the Mac.
So it seems the Macbook doesn't want to work with more than one PC on the network.
Any suggestions?

[mac-convert]

Forgive me in advance for the long post.
I am the proud new owner of a white MacBook (OS X 10.4 Tiger).
We have two desktop PCs, both running Windows XP.
The two PCs happily coexist on a wired home network, sharing a cable broadband internet connection w/ ethernet, and sharing files & printers.


I've just set up a wireless home network with MacBook and 2 PCs. Internet is seamless for all computers. File sharing and general networking is very buggy.
PCa and PCb can always see each other fine and share files
PCb and Mac were once communicating but PCa and Mac could not see each other on the network at all.
After disabling a firewall I fixed the problem between PCa and Mac so they could finally see each other on the network. But literally as soon as that was fixed, PCb disappeared from the Network section on the Mac, and PCb can't see Mac either! I didn't even touch PCb in the process or touch anything related to that on the Mac.
So it seems the Macbook doesn't want to work with more than one PC on the network.
Any suggestions?

Are these two posts related? One you describe as a wired network, the other wireless, but the computers are the same - a Mac and two PC's.

[sunsnewmac]

wow you guys are slick
i bought a wireless router today thinking that would solve my networking pblms. it has improved things somewhat but the network is still wonky and since the pcs are never bumping each other off I imagine it's the mac that is the troublemaker here
pls help, sorry if i'm being a troublemaker too:o

[TheAnswer]

I'm not an networking expert, but I'll try to run a little triage here to that once the networking experts see the thread they can get up to speed quickly.

First...post the stats on your MacBook. Have you run Software Update recently, i.e. is it up to date as far as the OS goes? Second...brand and model of router...and are the PCs running Vista or XP...are they up to date also?

Also, maybe draw a little diagram as to your setup, I see you mentioned a printer in one of the threads, is it connected to a PC to the router or the mac? Also, if your PCs have multiple volumes that you want to show up on the network, that might be vital info too.

If you haven't already, Update the OSes and check for a firmware update for the router as the N spec is evolving.

Good Luck!

[sunsnewmac]

Hi
All the system/software are up to date on the Mac and PCs.
The ghost problem occurred with the hardwired router as well as the wireless one.
The strange thing is that the computers DO see each other and share files--SOMETIMES. That's exactly the problem. They float in and out of the MB's "awareness," appearing and disappearing from the networking area.
I also want to know how to make the aliases to the shared folders stay put on the Mac desktop but that's a seperate issue.

sorry i cant' really make a good diagram and don't have screen shots. But basically the two desktop PCs running XP are connected WIRED to the router. The MacBook running latest OS X version is using AirPort. Internet works great for everyone. The printer is connected via USB to one of the PCs and is set up to share. The two PCs share files easily and regularly. The Mac sometimes sees the shared files/folders and then suddenly doesn't...

[TheAnswer]

Alrighty...a little more triage...

First...does the Macbook run at N speeds? If you purchased it open box, it might not have shipped with N enabled (Apple sells a firmware enabler for $2 online). I know the problem existed on the all wired network too, but just so we are all on the same page.

Did you try dynamicv's suggestions from the other thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=284499), if so what were the results on the packet loss?

[sunsnewmac]

Hi
I'll look into that (N on the Mac). Although the Mac has not internet connection problems

Results from the tests:

0% packet loss

And I tried both ways of connecting (connect to server/appearing in network pane). They do connect, the problem is they don't stay connected. the whole thing is rather erratic

[Queso]

Can you check the networking protocols running on the PCs. and on the Mac? Is it purely TCP/IP? If so, how are addresses allocated? Automatically from the router?

Also do all three machines have the same default router? And if you run "nbtstat -n" on the PCs do either of them return the _MSBROWSE_ entry?

EDIT : And one more to try. On the Mac, open the Terminal and run the findsmb command. Do the PCs show?

[sunsnewmac]

ok, I ran nbtstat on both PCs and I don' think I see an entry for _MSBROWSE_. Is that a problem?
I ran findsmb and no, only the Mac's IP shows. I imagine that is a problem.
I don't know if the protocols are purely TCP/IP. Pls help me find that out
Appreciate your help!

[Queso]

The lack of _MSBROWSE_ could be the issue for the disappearances. In the absence of a server, Windows machines elect one machine to serve as the network browser, meaning it collates all the names of the computers. Any request that needs to use the PCs name is then sent to the network browser to find it's IP address rather than broadcast to all machines. Another way to check which machine is performing the role is to have a look in the Mac's Console utility, click on logs and locate the log.nmbd file under the Samba section. The log should list which machine is the browser for the local subnet. If the Mac thinks it is, but the PCs think one of them is, we could have found the problem.

This next bit I'm doing from memory so forgive me if it's not totally correct:-

On the PCs right click on your control panel and go to Network and Dial-up connections. Right click on your local network connection and select properties. There's a box in the window that lists the installed components, such as the Windows Networking Client or words to that effect. Post here what is installed, and remember that you may need to scroll down to get them all.

[sunsnewmac]

ah we are getting warmer!
the Mac lists itself as being the "local master browser." So how can I tell if the PCs are conflicting and how can I resolve the issue? And why is it occurring to me and not to other ppl who have successfully set up home networks?
Also, all the checkboxes are enabled (networking protocols). I don't have screen shots and am too lazy to list them all. Or would it help to?
thank you so much!

[Queso]

Hmmm. OK, that's the likely cause, but how do we stabliise it? Can you check the event logs on one of the PCs to see if event 8021 or 8032 is appearing? This would indicate that they are attempting a periodic browser election, which we could prevent them from doing so that they accept the Mac as the master browser.

On the Network Settings front, here (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/318030/en-us)'s an article from the Microsoft website that isn't quite your issue, but provides some instructions for what I'm thinking may help.

[sunsnewmac]

Hi
do you mind telling me where to look for the event logs?
I followed the directions on that MS page you sent.
it's strange because sometimes when the Mac can see both PCs on the network, the PCs don't see the Mac (in "view workgroup computers"). But when I run a 3rd party app called Network Magic, that app does see the Mac.:confused:

once or twice the Mac appeared as a workgroup computer (on the PCs) and then it would suddenly disappear. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to what is happening.

[Queso]

The sporadic disappearing computers definitely sound like master browser issues. If the PCs are querying a master browser that the Mac isn't registering on, then it won't appear to them. If however you restart the Windows Sharing on the Mac, the Mac will send out a "Browser Re-election" packet, which essentially informs the PCs of the Mac's availability. However, if the election result isn't agreed upon between all the comptuers, the Mac will disappear from the PCs network neighbourhood window again after around 12 minutes. Get them all registering with the same master browser and it should stabilise the connection.

To find the event log, right-click on the My Computer icon and select Manage. Drill down in the console to the Event Viewer. System log is the one you want. If it's quite long you can right-click on the System Log icon in the left panel and filter just for the one event number.

If you've followed those Microsoft instructions, take another look in the Mac's nbmd.log file to see if the Master Browser has changed.

[sunsnewmac]

Hi

I enabled NetBIOS over TCP/IP and restarted the Computer Browser service as per the instructions at http://support.microsoft.com/kb/318030/en-us

I refreshed the long.nmbd on the Mac and it still says it (the mac) is the local master browser.

Nothing seems to have changed. Is there something else I should do?

[sunsnewmac]

A different (but related) question I would love an answer to: Is it possible to keep the shared folder aliases in place on the Mac's desktop? It seems that after a short period of inactivity (not falling asleep, just beng away from the MB) I have to reestablish the connection to the PCs and re-enable sharing. I'd rather not have to do that.
Thanks :)

[Queso]

Are the PCs now saying whether either of them has become a master browser?

[MacBoobsPro]

Sesshi should be along any minute now. :)

[Sesshi]

<Screeches to a halt, steps out of overclocked, refrigerated Dell>

Perhaps it's best to start at basics.

IP addresses.
What is the IP address of all the machines?

In Windows, you can type in IPCONFIG at the CMD prompt.
(Start-Run-type in CMD+Enter)

On the Mac, you can go to the Network Preferences and selecting Show All, then looking at the AirMac information.

[sunsnewmac]

update for dynamicv:

8021 and 8032 are appearing in the system event log on my PC

the other PC has an entry for _MS BROWSE_
mine doesn't

the Mac still sees itself as the local master browswer

sesshi, why the IP addresses?

[Sesshi]

Just working up to making sure you haven't got two DHCP servers or suchlike. If you're sure about that, we can go on to the next step. I doubt the problem is as complex as it's seeming to appear at this time.

[Queso]

update for dynamicv:

8021 and 8032 are appearing in the system event log on my PC

the other PC has an entry for _MS BROWSE_
mine doesn't

the Mac still sees itself as the local master browser
Only one machine should ever be the Master Browser, so this proves that the PCs are functioning correctly. If you restart the Windows sharing on the Mac and run the findsmb command again, does it show anything different?.

If that doesn't work I'm going to sit on the sidelines for a bit here now and see what ideas Sesshi has. Best that we don't talk over each other. :)

[sunsnewmac]

The DHCP servers are the same on all computers on the network. Anything else suspicious I should look for?

I stopped and restarted Windows sharing and checked findsmb and still looks the same (only the Mac shows up)

[Sesshi]

Once again, could you list out the IP addresses of each machine?

The other thing you could try and isolate is if the problem is OSX-borne or Windows-borne. Try downloading DAVE (http://www.thursby.com/products/dave.html) and see if that works.

[sunsnewmac]

Why do you need the IP addresses? Is there something in particular you are looking for?

For the past few days it seems that the problem may have shifted from being Mac-related to being PC-related, as the shared files on the PC have been showing up regularly in the Mac networking pane. However, the PCs still don't recognize the Mac. My 3rd party networking software can see the Mac but not as a Workstation, and in XP--View Workgroups, the Mac doesn't show up at all. So I can't browse any files on the Mac from the PC even though I've enabled windows file sharing.

[Sesshi]

I'm looking for any instances of incorrectly configured networking, DHCP failure, yada yada. IP addresses are a good place to start. It's not yet conclusive that the networking problems you're having are of the level of depth that it seems to have gotten to in the thread.

There are some registry fixes you can apply on the Windows side but at first, I'd look to eliminate any IP allocation issues. A dupe IP allocation for example could be causing the occasional hiccups.

You could also try turning off the DHCP servers and explicitly specifying the IP address and gateway address of each device you want to check connectivity with. You could also try turning off the DHCP server you think you're using and make sure that all devices don't end up with valid IP addresses bar selfconfigured ones.

I'd also say try the trial version of DAVE, which is a far more 'Windows compatible' client and therefore will vaguely point out whether the problem is the Windows machines being unable to access the Mac or vice versa.

Just make sure the underlying connections are absolutely solid before looking higher up would be my advice at this time.

[sunsnewmac]

I'm looking for any instances of incorrectly configured networking, DHCP failure, yada yada. IP addresses are a good place to start.... I'd look to eliminate any IP allocation issues. A dupe IP allocation for example could be causing the occasional hiccups.

:)please let me know where should I look and what should I do

There are some registry fixes you can apply on the Windows side but at first

yes i'll try anything except registry editing (yuk)

You could also try turning off the DHCP servers and explicitly specifying the IP address and gateway address of each device you want to check connectivity with. You could also try turning off the DHCP server you think you're using and make sure that all devices don't end up with valid IP addresses bar selfconfigured ones.

Do you mind outlining procedures for Mac & PC?

I'd also say try the trial version of DAVE, which is a far more 'Windows compatible' client and therefore will vaguely point out whether the problem is the Windows machines being unable to access the Mac or vice versa.

OK--but let's try the other stuff before installing anything

thank you SO much for your help

[sunsnewmac]

More woes:

Now the Mac won't recognize the Workgroup. It has bumped off one of the PCs and will only connect to the other. This is nuts! I do believe it has to do with that Master Broswer conflict. How can I specify one computer as the Master Browser for good and stop this madness???:(

[TheAnswer]

sunsnewmac:

I understand your hesitance to give out your IP addresses, especially in the forums. Maybe you could email them to Sesshi and see if he can spot anything? That way you don't have to worry about everyone in the world having them.

I suspect there might be a time zone difference between the two of you, so if you start working it out through emails, maybe you can arrange a common time to come back to the forum and resolve the problem completely.

Good Luck!

[Sesshi]

sunsnewmac:

I understand your hesitance to give out your IP addresses

That doesn't make sense. No-one's asking for his external IP address(es).

[Sesshi]

sunsnewmac, I'm not familiar with your routers. You'll have to look at the manuals on how to turn off the DHCP server on the router. One other source of a DHCP server is if you've ever enabled Internet Connection Sharing on any of your Windows PC's. The purpose of this exercise will be to turn off what you think is your main DHCP server/router, reboot your PC's and see if they still end up with addresses other than 16x.xxx.xxx.xxx (the DHCP self assigned address that is active when a DHCP server is NOT avaialble).

If for example you turn off the DHCP server on your router, reboot your machines and if one of them still reads e.g. 192.168.1.11, then you still have another DHCP server on your network.

Before you turn off the DHCP server, make sure that you note down the address of the router, and that you are familiar with changing the IP address manually on your PC/Mac to be able to reconnect to the router.

[Queso]

Why do you need the IP addresses? Is there something in particular you are looking for?
I think Sesshi is wanting to know if the Mac and PCs are on the same subnet, which the IP addresses side-by-side will tell him (providing you also post the Subnet mask). Windows peer-to-peer networking only works automatically if the machines are all on the same IP subnet, so if they are on different subnets it will cause the issues you're experiencing.

[sunsnewmac]

well i checked the subnet masks and it is the same on all 3 computers. if it helps the IP addresses all begin with 192.168.0.xxx with the final .xxx different for the 3 comptuers. I don't know if that means anything but...I have not had the chance to install DAVE yet.

This keeps getting curiouser and curiouser: today the Mac showed up on my PC workgroup for the first time ever, but the Mac and the other PC are refusing to see each other:rolleyes:

[sunsnewmac]

DAVE didn't do much for the network. It's as erratic as it was before, with one PC and the Mac recognizing each other as fellow workgroup members, but with the other PC and the Mac having trouble with each other. Earlier today (before I installed Dave) I could "connect to server" with the problem PC and share files even if that PC wouldn't show up in the network pane. With Dave the opposite is happening: the Mac sees the PC as part of the workgroup but won't connect to it (either there or using "connect to server").:confused: :mad: :(

[sunsnewmac]

bump:(