Libby Guilty

[miloblithe]

Breaking news. 4 of 5 counts.

[Sayhey]

It's about time one of these criminals does time for at least some of his crimes. Here's to Cheney being next.

[miloblithe]

Here's a link, for the link lovers.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/06/cia.leak/index.html

Maximum of 25 years? Who smells a pardon?

[obeygiant]

Not a big surprise. Somebody had to be the fall guy.

Count 3 he was found not-guilty;

He was found not guilty on one count of making false statements.

[Swarmlord]

Let's see Sandy Burgler steals secret documents and destroys them and Clinton ejaculates on an intern in the White House and they are free and Libby gets convicted. Yeah, our criminal justice system is fair. I guess he should have used the "depends on what the meaning of is is" defense.

[it5five]

So you REALLY think that having sex with somebody is an offense that should be brought before court, tried, and that person sentenced to a maximum of 25 years? Get real.

[jelloshotsrule]

Let's see Sandy Burgler steals secret documents and destroys them and Clinton ejaculates on an intern in the White House and they are free and Libby gets convicted. Yeah, our criminal justice system is fair. I guess he should have used the "depends on what the meaning of is is" defense.

i'm very very very very very very very surprised that you deflected the news of foul play by your own beloved party by complaining about democrats (of course clinton being the best). shocked. i just came to.

[obeygiant]

So you REALLY think that having sex with somebody is an offense that should be brought before court, tried, and that person sentenced to a maximum of 25 years? Get real.

HAving sex is one thing, having it in the Oval Office or adjacent room and lying about it is another.

note to Clinton lovers: Please forgive this twisting of the knife. :D ;)

[leekohler]

So you REALLY think that having sex with somebody is an offense that should be brought before court, tried, and that person sentenced to a maximum of 25 years? Get real.

How long have you been reading Swarmlord's posts? If it's been a while you should know the answer. ;) :rolleyes:

[Thanatoast]

Wait, ejaculating on an intern is a crime!? :eek:

[leekohler]

HAving sex is one thing, having it on the Oval Office or adjacent room and lying about it is another.

note to Clinton lovers: Please forgive this twisting of the knife. :D ;)

The question never should have been asked in the first place. And I'm not a Clinton lover, quite the opposite

[MacNut]

Let's see Sandy Burgler steals secret documents and destroys them and Clinton ejaculates on an intern in the White House and they are free and Libby gets convicted. Yeah, our criminal justice system is fair. I guess he should have used the "depends on what the meaning of is is" defense.Well Kenneth Star wasn't the best person for the job.

[it5five]

HAving sex is one thing, having it on the Oval Office and lying about it is another.

Christ. Apparently having sex in the oval office (who gives a ****?) is worse than disclosing a CIA agents identity to the press because her husband writes a critical op-ed in a newspaper about the Bush administration.

[it5five]

How long have you been reading Swarmlord's posts? If it's been a while you should know the answer. ;) :rolleyes:

I've been reading for a while, but I thought maybe, just maybe he'd be able to admit his precious right-wing can do wrong just once. I guess not. :rolleyes:

[obeygiant]

Wait, ejaculating on an intern is a crime!? :eek:

LOL, seems like it should be legal doesnt it?



...still lolling

[skoker]

This image looks oddly appropriate given the ongoing discussion:

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/POLITICS/03/06/cia.leak/newt1.libby5.tues.ap.jpg

[zimv20]

apparently, he's going to appeal. if he and his lawyers can make that last until january 2009, maybe he will get his pardon.

[leekohler]

apparently, he's going to appeal. if he and his lawyers can make that last until january 2009, maybe he will get his pardon.

Oh he will. Remember Iran-Contra? Like father, like son.

[Swarmlord]

And it was so straight forward that he was guilty that it took the jury like 10 days to reach a verdict. What's funny is that none of the charges had anything to do with outing Plame in the first place.

[vniow]

Let's see Sandy Burgler steals secret documents and destroys them and Clinton ejaculates on an intern in the White House and they are free and Libby gets convicted. Yeah, our criminal justice system is fair. I guess he should have used the "depends on what the meaning of is is" defense.


I love this argument. All it boils down to is "...but..but..zomg....Clinton!!!11"

[Thomas Veil]

Meanwhile, Karl Rove and Dick Cheney walk. http://users.adelphia.net/~tjveil/images/yeahright.gif

[IJ Reilly]

One way or another, Libby will almost certainly not serve any prison time, but I don't really care. This trial revealed for anyone who cared to know how this White House uses its executive powers to bust the kneecaps of their critics. The Wilson's civil suit will be even further ranging, and more interesting to watch.

Anybody who tries to compare the Bush administration's efforts to destroy Joe Wilson for sole reason that he had the nerve to tell us the truth, to Clinton's dalliance with Monica Lewinsky, needs to have their pulse examined because they have apparently turned into a political cyborg.

[IJ Reilly]

And it was so straight forward that he was guilty that it took the jury like 10 days to reach a verdict. What's funny is that none of the charges had anything to do with outing Plame in the first place.

Apparently you have not been following this case very closely. As the prosecutor said, the problem with obstruction of justice is that it obstructs justice. You can't get to the truth when people lie.

Besides, the importance of this event was not whether outing Plame was a crime. It was a political hit. Nobody can deny that now.

[Swarmlord]

<snip>... because they have apparently turned into a political cyborg.

Resistance is futile!

[Swarmlord]

Meanwhile, Karl Rove and Dick Cheney walk. http://users.adelphia.net/~tjveil/images/yeahright.gif

As did Clinton and Burger. Let's call it a draw.

[Sayhey]

And it was so straight forward that he was guilty that it took the jury like 10 days to reach a verdict. What's funny is that none of the charges had anything to do with outing Plame in the first place.


Have you even read anything about the testimony in this trial? Did you listen to the jurors comments on how seriously and methodically they went over the evidence in the case? Unbelievable.

You are right that this trial did not bring charges about the underlying crime of revealing the identity of a undercover CIA agent for the purely political purpose of undercutting a critic of the war. However, it did show that not only did Libby lie and obstruct justice, but he also was part of wide spread discussions of the administration on how to smear its opponents and lie to the American people about the war. And you think this is trivial because part of the cover-up worked and Libby could only be tried for perjury and obstruction? Get real.

[leekohler]

As did Clinton and Burger. Let's call it a draw.

NO- The Clinton situation and this were hardly the same, as has already been pointed out to you in several posts that you've obviously chosen to ignore.

[Swarmlord]

<snip>...but he also was part of wide spread discussions of the administration on how to smear its opponents and lie to the American people about the war. <snip>

Hmmm, I must have missed that meeting. I'm sure you have tapes or links to transcripts to back that up though.:cool:

[IJ Reilly]

Have you even read anything about the testimony in this trial? Did you listen to the jurors comments on how seriously and methodically they went over the evidence in the case? Unbelievable.

You are right that this trial did not bring charges about the underlying crime of revealing the identity of a undercover CIA agent for the purely political purpose of undercutting a critic of the war. However, it did show that not only did Libby lie and obstruct justice, but he also was part of wide spread discussions of the administration on how to smear its opponents and lie to the American people about the war. And you think this is trivial because part of the cover-up worked and Libby could only be tried for perjury and obstruction? Get real.

I have only one word for you in response: Monica.

Enough said, right?

[IJ Reilly]

Hmmm, I must have missed that meeting. I'm sure you have tapes or links to transcripts to back that up though.:cool:

Look, just because you haven't been paying attention...

[Swarmlord]

NO- The Clinton situation and this were hardly the same, as has already been pointed out to you in several posts that you've obviously chosen to ignore.

I know the perjury of a President versus just an aide was worse, but I was willing to overlook that.

[leekohler]

I know the perjury of a President versus just an aide was worse, but I was willing to overlook that.

Regardless, sex affects the people involved. What this man did affected a lot more people. Don't EVEN try to claim Clinton was worse. That's a load of bull.

BTW- Sayhey and IJ, give Swarmlord his links.

[IJ Reilly]

I know the perjury of a President versus just an aide was worse, but I was willing to overlook that.

Why not? You're overlooking everything else.

[jelloshotsrule]

trollfeed, get your trollfeed here!

[obeygiant]

This trial is more about Libby's lying to the FBI and obstructing justice than the actual leak. Perjury is probably one of the most corrosive things to the american justice system....besides the media. :)

The federal indictment of ‘Scooter’ Libby, Vide President Dick Cheney’s former Chief of Staff, on charges that he 1) allegedly lied and gave false testimony to a grand jury hearing testimony regarding the leak of former covert CIA agent Valerie Plame’s identity, and 2) allegedly lied and obstructed justice in his statements to F.B.I. agents who were investigating the leak as well

full text of Libby indictment ("http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/plame/uslibby102805ind.html)

[IJ Reilly]

Regardless, sex affects the people involved. What this man did affected a lot more people. Don't EVEN try to claim Clinton was worse. That's a load of bull.

Lest we forget, Clinton's alleged perjury was contained in disallowed testimony from a dismissed trial. Nobody is ever prosecuted under those circumstances -- but nevertheless, he was impeached and very nearly removed from office over it. The entire subject of the trial was sex, didn't involve events which occurred while Clinton was in office, and certainly had nothing to do with the people's business.

But the Bush administration does a political hit on a critic who reveals a lie which they used to justify a war... and that's almost the same thing? I have to give up on anyone who could think such a thing.

[Sdashiki]

Ford pardoned Nixon.

Granted, most of us here werent born then or dont even remember all that happening...

But at the time, it was almost GUARANTEED that Nixon was going to jail.

Instead, Ford pardoned him for the good of his name and the nation.

Now THAT, was a travesty of justice, all this new crap (clinton, bush, libby) is nothing compared to that.

He was basically impeached, found guilty etc etc, but he walked a free man.


I deeply believe in equal justice for all Americans, whatever their station or former station. The law, whether human or divine, is no respecter of persons; but the law is a respecter of reality.

The facts, as I see them, are that a former President of the United States, instead of enjoying equal treatment with any other citizen accused of violating the law, would be cruelly and excessively penalized either in preserving the presumption of his innocence or in obtaining a speedy determination of his guilt in order to repay a legal debt to society.

so being the President DOES put you above the law, and this was on national TV.

oh how we forget the past.

[mactastic]

The funny thing is that in 1998 perjury was the Crime of All Crimes, something worthy of impeaching a president over. Lying about a blowjob was a constitutional crisis of unprecedented proportion.

Yet today, lying about outing a CIA agent who was working on Iranian weapons intelligence is much ado about nothing.

Today it's being spun as No Big Deal by all the rightys. Hilarious to watch them spin if you ask me. Watch out for that Red Kool Aid boys... it's been spiked!

[solvs]

Does anyone here really like Clinton enough to actually defend him? I mean, he lied. We get it. Bad Clinton. I guess I can even overlook all of those others who were criticizing him while doing basically the same things. Didn't Strom call his a youthful indiscretion? He was about 50 at the time. Newt, Rudy, and McCain have their issues with fidelity too. Same with Rush and O'Reilly. And don't even get me started on Foley. But Clinton lied, so he's bad. Ok. Got it. Seriously, I agree. I was mad. But it's over. Long since.

So now that we've established the obvious, can we please talk about the real crimes committed here? I realize you have nothing left, so we have to go back to the old staple of blaming Clinton and saying his lie was bad (which it kinda was, at the time) which somehow makes the current lies ok, but there's a more serious issue here that I can't believe anybody has to even bother explaining. There's no defense for what they've been caught red handed doing. You know it, they know it, we know it... everybody who knows anything about it knows it. Obviously guilty, no matter how much of a partisan hack you are.

So yeah, Clinton sucked... now what's your excuse.

[Legolamb]

[QUOTE=solvs;3418400]
So yeah, Clinton sucked... QUOTE]

No, I think you got that wrong.;) ;)

[solvs]

It's obvious by the comments that this jury was striking back at Bush and it was the only way they could do it was to find Libby guilty. I believe they knew all along they were going to return a guilty verdict, but had to drag it out so it wouldn't look like they rushed to a verdict. This shouldn't surprise anyone, Libby was never going to get a fair trial in Washington. Reid is full of hot air and I hope President Bush pardons him before he leaves office. If everyone else can go free and nothing was done about Clinton lying or Berger stealing classified documents then Libby also should go free.

Posted by someone at Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/03/06/bloggers-react-to-guilty-_n_42768.html). Get ready for lots of this. Logic be damned!

[solvs]

So yeah, Clinton sucked...

No, I think you got that wrong.;) ;)

Hey, we don't know what he did... he is a lying, gay, rapist after all. :p (according to that bastion of accuracy Ann Coulter)

[obeygiant]

he is a lying, gay, rapist after all.

well, not gay probably.

[solvs]

well, not gay probably.

So he's a rapist then (I'll give you lying, he is a politician)?

Remind me how this makes Libby and the Bush administration innocent of this crime?

[mactastic]

Because personal responsibility apparently means pointing to someone else's behavior as a way of excusing your own. Way to go, you proud, righteous, Culture Warriors!

I wonder if we'll get anyone who can manage a defense of Libby without mentioning The Clenis (with whom they seem strangely singularly obssessed, almost like an unhinged, irrational hatred...)

[yg17]

Because getting a blowjob is such a terrible crime that nothing else compares to it.

[mactastic]

Because getting a blowjob is such a terrible crime that nothing else compares to it.
Actually the argument at the time was that perjury was such a terrible crime that nothing else compares to it; and that impeachment was the only way to erase the stain (pun intended)from our nation.

Of course now perjury is 'no big deal'.

[zimv20]

Reid is full of hot air and I hope President Bush pardons him before he leaves office.
quick! someone indict reid so bush can pardon him!

[mactastic]

Speaking of Clinton, remember all the noise from the VRWC when Clinton pardoned Mark Rich?

You can bet those same hypocrites will be silent if Bush pardons Libby.

[Sayhey]

Hmmm, I must have missed that meeting. I'm sure you have tapes or links to transcripts to back that up though.:cool:

Do you want the tapes (http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/audio/2007/02/07/AU2007020701900.html) or the transcripts (http://www.talkleft.com/LibbyTrial/ftizmay24exhib.pdf)?

[mactastic]

Do you want the tapes (http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/audio/2007/02/07/AU2007020701900.html) or the transcripts (http://www.talkleft.com/LibbyTrial/ftizmay24exhib.pdf)?
Oh snap! :D

[solvs]

(with whom they seem strangely singularly obssessed, almost like an unhinged, irrational hatred...)

It's because they have nothing else. His mistakes (and let's not be fooled, there were some) paled in comparison to the current administration. There is no defense of the Bush administration, nothing to say or do but deflect. Either you decry both, or you can't complain about Bush. Except no one is defending Clinton. Oops. Well, there's just no defense left then is there.

BTW, Sandy Berger pleaded guilty, paid a fine, and served his time... not that anyone is defending him either. :rolleyes:

quick! someone indict reid so bush can pardon him!
You forget. He over-tipped his doorman. It's just as bad as treason!

No, worse!!!

[MacNut]

Did anything ever happen to the reporter that published the name of the agent.

[leekohler]

Do you want the tapes (http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/audio/2007/02/07/AU2007020701900.html) or the transcripts (http://www.talkleft.com/LibbyTrial/ftizmay24exhib.pdf)?

Thanks for posting those. But don't expect the facts to get in SL's way. ;)

[solvs]

Did anything ever happen to the reporter that published the name of the agent.

Judith Miller went to jail for awhile. Robert Novak hasn't really had much done to him, but he was dropped from a steady gig or 2 and his reputation is pretty much shot. Tim Russert may have done something too, but his testimony helped the prosecutors case, so he's pretty much clear AFAIK.

[Dont Hurt Me]

The Draft Dodging Dick is the one who is really guilty. Draft dodgers the whole republican party that got us into Iraq. All the Key players have this is common. Bush,Cheney,Rove,Delay,Libbey,Lott,Frists,Hastert,Limbaugh,O'rielley, on and on this republican list goes. Allways the ones least willing to fight themself seem Ok with someone else getting killed for their lies.

Does any of this matter? Anyone convicted will be pardon by our so called President.

[zimv20]

Judith Miller went to jail for awhile. Robert Novak hasn't really had much done to him, but he was dropped from a steady gig or 2 and his reputation is pretty much shot. Tim Russert may have done something too, but his testimony helped the prosecutors case, so he's pretty much clear AFAIK.
just to be clear, ms miller never published a story outing ms plame. matt cooper did, though, at least confirming the story. he testified in order to avoid jailtime.

[beatzfreak]

Speaking of Clinton, remember all the noise from the VRWC when Clinton pardoned Mark Rich?

You can bet those same hypocrites will be silent if Bush pardons Libby.

Interesting that Libby was Marc Rich's lawyer .

[Sun Baked]

You forget. He over-tipped his doorman. It's just as bad as treason!

No, worse!!!

I thought under-tipping the doorman was what got you in deep trouble, or it that just New York?

I think the husband is going to be on one of the new shows tonight.

Libby was dangled in front of him early on as a fall guy, and he didn't seem to want Libby at the time.

Wonder what he'll say tonight.

[IJ Reilly]

I thought under-tipping the doorman was what got you in deep trouble, or it that just New York?

I think the husband is going to be on one of the new shows tonight.

Libby was dangled in front of him early on as a fall guy, and he didn't seem to want Libby at the time.

Wonder what he'll say tonight.

On NPR, Joe Wilson said that Bush should recuse himself from any possible pardon because Libby was a member of the White House staff.

[Sun Baked]

On NPR, Joe Wilson said that Bush should recuse himself from any possible pardon because Libby was a member of the White House staff.

Actually it would be nice to see the Presidential pardon escape hatch removed for Senators, Congressmen, and Governors while they are at it. ;)

[SMM]

Let's see Sandy Burgler steals secret documents and destroys them and Clinton ejaculates on an intern in the White House and they are free and Libby gets convicted. Yeah, our criminal justice system is fair. I guess he should have used the "depends on what the meaning of is is" defense.

Nice try. If you believe this, you have my pity. If not, hopefully you are not young. It would be dreadful having to go through a long life without moral principal, or analytical reasoning. :o

[Dont Hurt Me]

On NPR, Joe Wilson said that Bush should recuse himself from any possible pardon because Libby was a member of the White House staff.
Thats funny, recuse himself. You arent going to get Honor,Character or even Leadership out of BushCo. These guys are weasels at best.

[MacNut]

Thats funny, recuse himself. You arent going to get Honor,Character or even Leadership out of BushCo. These guys are weasels at best.Isn't that any politician, or is that lawyers.

[SMM]

HAving sex is one thing, having it in the Oval Office or adjacent room and lying about it is another.

note to Clinton lovers: Please forgive this twisting of the knife. :D ;)

Yes, it is different. Let's see, maybe 40 people out of a few hundred billion can attest to it. You know what is great about a debate between a liberal and a conservative? After the smart guys talks, there is usually plenty of opportunity to think about his wisdom, while the conservative spews their canned spittle.

[zimv20]

so is the Fox dentist the one who recommends sugared gum?

http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/fox_libby_not_guilty.jpg

[Sayhey]

Did anything ever happen to the reporter that published the name of the agent.

No, it wasn't a crime for Novak to publish her name. It was a crime for someone to leak it. What kind of violation is another question and whether it can be proven is even a further question, but a crime nonetheless.

Thanks for posting those. But don't expect the facts to get in SL's way. ;)

I know, but I couldn't help but respond to the snarky comment with what he asked for. It does help once in a while to know something about what one is talking about.

[MacNut]

Yes, it is different. Let's see, maybe 40 people out of a few hundred billion can attest to it.What is the difference, a lie is a lie no matter who tells it or what its about.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Isn't that any politician, or is that lawyers.Not much difference 99% of all politicians are lawyers. Interesting it is that Both Cheney & Libbey never took the stand to defend their lack of honor isnt it?
They sold us a war, Congress looked the other way and the American people bought Bush's Osama was Saddam spin storys. America deserves this for electing a bunch of draft dodging cowards to run our country. It really is amazing if you take a look at the republicans and how many were running with their tales between their legs back in the 60s and 70s. People should take notice of this. Almost any prominent Republican or Republican loudmouth has no military service. McCain is a minority in this reguard.

[MacNut]

Didn't Clinton skip the draft too.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Didn't Clinton skip the draft too.
He did but he never took us into a false war that cost billions of $$$ and killed over 100,000 people.

[Sayhey]

What is the difference, a lie is a lie no matter who tells it or what its about.

There is no difference between lying about cheating on your wife and lying about evidence manufactured to bring the nation into war resulting in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries? MacNut, I can't believe you honestly believe that.

[zimv20]

What is the difference, a lie is a lie no matter who tells it or what its about.
so you're saying that "i did not have sex with that woman" is no worse than "i did not eat the last cookie"?

[Sun Baked]

so you're saying that "i did not have sex with that woman" is no worse than "i did not eat the last cookie"?

Between those two statements, it would depend on the marriage. :p

[Thomas Veil]

It's obvious by the comments that this jury was striking back at Bush and it was the only way they could do it was to find Libby guilty.Wouldn't have had anything to do with, as one of the jurors has been saying on TV, the nine witnesses whose testimony contradicted Libby. :rolleyes:

[MacNut]

There is no difference between lying about cheating on your wife and lying about evidence manufactured to bring the nation into war resulting in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries? MacNut, I can't believe you honestly believe that.

so you're saying that "i did not have sex with that woman" is no worse than "i did not eat the last cookie"?A lie is a lie, I don't care what the lie is about it means you are not telling the truth.

There are no degrees of a lie either you tell the truth or you don't, what is so hard to grasp here.

[zimv20]

what is so hard to grasp here.
how you arrived at such a bastardized version of reality.

[MacNut]

how you arrived at such a bastardized version of reality.So you are now going to fight on what a lie is? I didn't know there were different kinds.:confused: So tell me some truthful lies.

lie noun an intentionally false statementWhat's to argue.

[zimv20]

So you are now going to fight on what a lie is? I didn't know there were different kinds.:confused: So tell me some truthful lies.
what isn't at issue is how you, informed by whatever sense of morality informs you, treat "lying" as a binary concern. what is at issue are the laws that govern the US and by which the courts operate.

perjury and obstruction have very specific meanings in the courts. what you've done is applied the non-legal term "lie" and then erroneously declared all instances of perjury equal. it's just not the case. and you're basing your entire argument on your fallacy, then trying to get us to discuss it with you on your erroneous level. and none of us are having it, because we can see right through it.

if you cannot see the mistake you've made, then i refer you again to my comment about your sense of reality.

[MacNut]

If you perjure yourself under oath that is a lie. I don't care who does it or what its about. When you lie in court it means you are not telling the truth. Perjury is a very serious charge. Clinton did it and so did Libby. While they lied about different things and the lie might not have been equal the fact is they both lied under oath. I don't care what the lie was the fact is that perjury is a lie.

[vniow]

...but..but zomg, Clinton!!!11

[IJ Reilly]

If you perjure yourself under oath that is a lie. I don't care who does it or what its about. When you lie in court it means you are not telling the truth. Perjury is a very serious charge. Clinton did it and so did Libby. While they lied about different things and the lie might not have been equal the fact is they both lied under oath. I don't care what the lie was the fact is that perjury is a lie.

Desperate times call for desperate reasoning.

[Sayhey]

Perjury is a very serious charge. Clinton did it and so did Libby.

Actually no. Clinton lied, and lied under oath, but he did not commit perjury. Libby did all of the above. This is all legalese, and matters very little except to a man facing up to 25 years in prison. But to your basic point, MacNut, I have no problem with the simple statement that a lie is a lie - as far as it goes, but such a simple understanding places the act of lying out of any context. One can lie about murder or one can lie about who farted in the car. They are both lies but one should mean prision time and one may lead to embarrassment. The fact you refuse to acknowledge the different contexts of the lies Libby and Clinton told shows a desperate attempt to refuse to deal with the reality of what Libby's lies have done.

Libby lied, and committed perjury and obstructed justice, in order to hoodwink the American people into supporting a war of choice - a war of aggression - and he also lied about his campaign to cover up his lies and smear his opponents. In the process, thousand and tens of thousands have died. Clinton lied about a consensual affair in order to save himself from personnal and political embarressment. No one died or was physically hurt as a consequence of his lie. For Clintion's lies he should be embarrassed. For Libby's lies and his part in the successful bamboozlement of the US population leading to a immoral foreign policy we all should feel ashamed and he should spend a long time in jail.

[MacNut]

Im not arguing the fact that Libby's lie was worse, Just that a lie is a lie. I don't care if its about how many cookies you ate or about a war. To me a lie is a lie.

[IJ Reilly]

Im not arguing the fact that Libby's lie was worse, Just that a lie is a lie. I don't care if its about how many cookies you ate or about a war. To me a lie is a lie.

And a drop of water is a flood.

[Macky-Mac]

Actually no. Clinton lied, and lied under oath, but he did not commit perjury. ....

Since in his final days in office Clinton made a deal to avoid criminal charges relating to his situation, we'll never really know whether he did or didn't commit perjury.

If I recall correctly, his license to practice law was suspended for five years, he paid a fine of $25,000 and had to issue a statement admitting that some of his testimony hadn't been truthful.

I wonder what will happen to Libby?

[zimv20]

C&L has the video (http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/03/06/countdown-joe-wilson-reacts-to-libby-verdict/) of wilson being interviewed by olbermann. a sober and well-spoken wilson, i might add.

[Sayhey]

Since in his final days in office Clinton made a deal to avoid criminal charges relating to his situation, we'll never really know whether he did or didn't commit perjury.

If I recall correctly, his license to practice law was suspended for five years, he paid a fine of $25,000 and had to issue a statement admitting that some of his testimony hadn't been truthful.

I wonder what will happen to Libby?

Clinton lied under oath about having an consensual affair with Monica, a fact that wasn't material to the investigation of the Paula Jones sexual harassment lawsuit - thus not perjury. As a result, he lost his license and paid a fine. He was never convicted of perjury. I don't have a problem with the penalty given to Clinton. However, to compare this situation to Libby's is only useful in "throwing more sand" in the eyes of the American people. Other than the simple fact they both lied, there is nothing about the two situations that is remotely comparable. Libby's crime, imho, should result in a very long prison term.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Its funny were talking definitions and semantics when Bush & Cheney are the ones who pushed this policy of half truths,lies and spin for this war. Libbey was merely a pawn for the real criminals.

[solvs]

Clinton was punished for his "crime". We don't care anymore. Only partisan hacks who know they've lost the argument try to lessen what Libby and the rest of them did by relating something long since over. That none of us is defending BTW. Nixon lied too. He was forced to step down. It's over. Drop the Clinton thing already. If you don't have anything to say about Libby, it's a waste of time to try to use Clinton as a distraction. Don't make me bring up Foley. Or O'Reilly, or Newt, or Rudy, or McCain, or Strom, or any of the others I'm forgetting.

Libby has been prosecuted, and this is just one more thing against the Bush administration, still reeling from the Walter Reed thing after that whole "support the troops" hypocrisy.

[mactastic]

If you perjure yourself under oath that is a lie. I don't care who does it or what its about. When you lie in court it means you are not telling the truth. Perjury is a very serious charge. Clinton did it and so did Libby. While they lied about different things and the lie might not have been equal the fact is they both lied under oath. I don't care what the lie was the fact is that perjury is a lie.
Ah but the difference is that Clinton was not convicted of perjury, now was he? Clinton was accused (impeached), then tried - but ultimately not convicted - in the Senate.

Libby has been tried and found guilty. He is a criminal, a felon. Bill Clinton is not. Try as you might to conflate the two, those are the facts.

Then to top it off by claiming you hold no capacity to distinguish a lie that jepordized the security of a marriage with a lie that jepordized the security of a nation? Both may be morally unacceptable, but one is clearly more grave than the other.

Unless, of course, you buy the argument that involuntary manslaughter is the same as murder.

[solvs]

Unless, of course, you buy the argument that involuntary manslaughter is the same as murder.

Only if the manslaughterer is a liberal and the murderer a conservative.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Its Ironic that draft dodgers who wouldnt serve their country outed Valerie Plame which is against the law. Cheney & his gang did this they should be held acountable to the law, only Congress is a lawless bunch but the people know. The people know and will remember this one along with many many other things they have done.