PDF from Moto developers forum claiming Rapid I/O in all futrure Moto proc

[Eric_Z]

Read the PDF here http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/SNDF2003_EUROPE_H1101.pdf

The document allso claims (p. 34) that there is an dual core Moto proc in the works.

No dates are mentioned thought.

[Kurt]

I don't think this is Apple's future processor. It will probably be a long time before it actually sees the light of day, if it ever does.

[HasanDaddy]

A little too late, Moto....!

[trilogic]

good for apple if they can choose between faster motorola or faster ibm cpu's

[anastasis]

So will the system see this as two processors?

[JW Pepper]

As Steve said "Apple has options"

[Tiauguinho]

Its good that Motorola is still developing the PPC, but still, they cant stand with IBM in time of delivering, quality of chips and the pure power of the PPC. Nice try Motorola, but with all the time we lost with the G4, I cant trust you anymore, cause this changes should be out 1.5 years ago, not now.

[JW Pepper]

Seriously, I suspect that the 970 is for Desktop machines and this could be for portables.

[Zaid]

Does anyone think that the flurry of Moto activity recently could be read as circumstantial evidence pointing to apple picking up the 970's from IBM.

Maybe moto is trying to keep its biggest PPC client on board. Apple buys btwn half and 2/3 of motos G4s so losing those sales may be quite a big blow. Of course Moto does deserve a swift kick in the nuts :D

[krube73]

I see this as Moto's last ditch attempt to salvage the aging G4 proc. They should have been more on top of things way back in 97-98 when the Intel chips were beginning to outpace them. I was a Windows pundit for years until I started using Macs on a daily basis. Didn't Moto see the signs when larger companies like Adobe posted higher PC based sales of their software. I say stay on the porch Moto, there's a new dog in town...Big Blue will put Apple back in the lead for performance.

[darkmynded_one]

what other computers and operating systems support or require the PPC?

always wondered this .. any help would be greatly appreciated.

[hayesk]

Originally posted by darkmynded_one
what other computers and operating systems support or require the PPC?

always wondered this .. any help would be greatly appreciated.

Heh heh - IBM RS6000 workstations - but for some reason, I think they'll go with the 970. ;)

However, Cisco uses G4s in their routers.

[cb911]

so Moto is working on a dual-core G4, and it can be assumed that this will run at 2GHz and will be aimed mainly at the embedded market (<10 watts?)

WTF?!! is Moto trying to keep their product in the iBooks or PowerBooks or something?

oh well, it is good that "Apple has options." :D



on a sidenote: this might sound a bit dumb, but is a dual-core processor like a dual CPU machine? or is dual-core different? i've never read anything much about dual-core and how it works, so if anyone has some links they could post... that would be very helpful.

thanks. :)

[mohaukachi]

this is good news! all this recent flury is a great sign that they could be getting dumped my apple. not that id mind that.:p

[scem0]

How ironic would it be if moto started making faster chips than IBM right when apple switched.

I highly doubt that though.

WHy does moto feel the need to start doing major development on their microprocessors right when apple leaves? :rolleyes:

[Dont Hurt Me]

would have been good if they were doing this last year, wouldnt it be funny if apple had a brainfart and came out with motorola powered new metalmacs? Lets hope apple has enough sense to go with the 970 everywhere and motorola can put their chips in phones and toasters. Funny how now motorola is moving the g4 forward. What were they doing this past 2-3 yrs? Mac lovers will not tolerate a company that treats apple's cpu's as a afterthought. Waiting for the 970.

[DeusOmnis]

Screw moto, they screwed us.

[eric_n_dfw]

I love the G4 - and would snap one of these things up in a heartbeat. Wait, that's if they had came out 2 years ago! Seriously, DDR FSB is way too late to save them IMO.

We must also remember that there is no guarantee that Apple is going to use the 970 - should they? Heck yeah, but stranger things have come out of 1 Infinate Loop in the last 20 years, eh?

[Kid Red]

This is just business as usual. Apple may leave Moto, but Moto is going to suddenly just die like a lot of us would like. Life must go on for them post-Apple. They will continue to make chips well into our gloried 3ghz 980 days next year and beyond. Unless, of course, they sell the chip division.

[flahiker]

My $0.02.

The presentation did not target a general purpose cihp user. Instead its audience would be the embedded / deeply embedded designer. This includes telcom, automotive, medical etc. Just looking at the uP comparisons shows an embedded lineup. No where would you see a TMS320 (DSP) compared to a desktop processor.

There is a trend to put an IP stack in lots of non traditional embedded applications. Even automobile computers are seriously networked and Ford is using the MPC555.

Motorolla's traditional market has been the embedded area. This is their core business. IBM on the other hand has been more into computing. Now, not to slight IBM, they do have an embedded side. It seems Mot is making embedded processors that, oh by the way, would have decent performance in Apple machines.

Another thing I did not see was a 64 bit migration path. If Apple is intending to migrate to 64 bits, it would seem to make sense across the board. In order to convince companies (adobe) to compile for 64 bits you would need lots of 64 bit machines. It would be expensive for them to maintain a 32 bit version of software for i-mobile and low end users and a 64 bit version for AL-mobile and high end users. Since 32 bit code should be binary compatable with the 64 bit machines, they would tend to stay 32 bit till the 64 bit base waranted the change

[nuckinfutz]

Does Motorola have the technical expertise and fabbing capability as compared to IBM. The answer is most likely no. HiP7 has bore no real fruit for Moto. IBM is gearing Fishkill up to grab some marketshare. Developing pdfs and claiming new tech is Moto's Modus Operandi. Lets see them actually produce.

I don't just want to read about Dual Core. That's not the main problem. It's the bus. What new bus would they be using. Dual Cores have advantages but it's not that grounbreaking and within 3 years Intel, IBM, AMD and anyone who's serious about CPUs will have Dual Core designs.

[Kamu-San]

Maybe the PPC970 is just a bargaining piece against Moto to get G4 development started again?

I don't hope so, the 970 looks promising.

[Fender2112]

Let's see:

Jan 02 - Moto ships 1GHz .18 SOI (page 4)
Feb 03 - Moto announces 1.3GHz .18 SOI (page 5)

Jun 03 Moto is at 1.3GHz .18 SOI while IMB is at 2.0 GHz .09 SOI
In people time that's 1.5 years. In computer time it's a lifetime.

Next:
Based on their timeline (page 8), they will be at .09 SOI by the end of 2003. I assume they will skip over the .13 process, which was due a year ago and go right into .09 process.

And in case anyone missed the subtle hints, Moto seems to be focused on the embedded market.

On the positve side:
That 1 GHz at 8 watts sounds interesting.

Page 11:
"Shipped over 2 million G4 SOI units to date, more than any other microprocessor vendor."
Who else sells G4 units? Kind of like saying Apple sells more PowerMacs than any other computer maker.

Peronally:
I don't care what chip Apple uses as long as it keeps pace with x86. If I'm paying a premium for Apple products, I want premium hardware.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by cb911
on a sidenote: this might sound a bit dumb, but is a dual-core processor like a dual CPU machine? or is dual-core different? i've never read anything much about dual-core and how it works, so if anyone has some links they could post... that would be very helpful.

thanks. :)

Kinda sorta. A dual-core machine has two complete sets of processing units on a single chip, two sets of registers associated with those, but usually a single L1/L2 cache, and always a single FSB bus heading out to the system controller chip. If the FSB is not your bottleneck, then dual-core is a great idea, and superior to dual-CPU in many ways. If the FSB is your bottleneck as with the G4, dual-core is a bit of a waste (as is the current SDP design which shares FSB ... but dual-core's shared caches at least mitigates the problem slightly). A dual-core chip will only make sense for Moto if it can (as it says it will) provide a massively improved front-side bus.

[rjwill246]

They talked about embedded markets only and given that and the way-off-course timeline, it would make Apple look undeniably stupid if they didn't go with another chip maker.... have to assume IBM and the 970 for all if not the midrange and up. Moto's design sounds good for a cheap notebook, someday, somehow, somewhere.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by hayesk
Heh heh - IBM RS6000 workstations

Of course, the only PowerPC-based IBM workstations use a PPC604e....

[Sonofhaig]

See ya later Motorola..... bye bye.
They had their chance and they blew it.

IBM has the best promise of getting the speeds
were they need to be.

[ClimbingTheLog]

I attended an NDA conference in 1998 at MacWorld Boston where the Motorola folks disclosed their future 'G4' processor. It was going to have 4 cores and run at over 700MHz (current G3's ran at around 233 IIRC).

When it finally came out it ran at 400MHz and had a single core. They said the multiple core model had slipped to the G5, out by 2000, running at over a GHz.

So, now it's slipped to yet another future version and it's only a dual-core. Basically, it's never going to happen, they just like to dangle a carrot in front of their kool-aid drinking customers.

[Dont Hurt Me]

motorola has been nothing but smoke and mirrors when it comes to real developement. a few years ago apple was forced to market 2 chips as being equal to one intel and is still having to do this. why because of sorry a-- motorola and there stagnation.

[bokdol]

moto can not just let apple go. but they wont be top tier. ibm well take there place and moto well take the lowends. apple well not just drop moto.

think a g4 for lowend

gobi for mid range. (mid level boxes)
(or fliped depending on which is faster and better


and 970 for high end and servers.

this way apple has both to work with. there is no point in staying with only one proc. you never know if ibm turn out to be another moto. and we become stuck with 970 at 2 ghz for 4 years... hahah(joking)

[bokdol]

Originally posted by bokdol
moto can not just let apple go. but they wont be top tier. ibm well take there place and moto well take the lowends. apple well not just drop moto.

think a g4 for lowend
200 bus

gobi for mid range. (mid level boxes)
200 bus

(or fliped depending on which is faster and better)


and 970 for high end and servers.


this way apple has both to work with. there is no point in staying with only one proc. you never know if ibm turn out to be another moto. and we become stuck with 970 at 2 ghz for 4 years... hahah(joking)

[ffakr]

sure, everyone hates Moto at this point, but I really hope this comes to pass. The dual core processors, or even the faster, low power G4s that are being promised would be great in the home and portable lines.
Sure, we all want dual 2.5 GHz 970s in all our machines, but I also want a fast laptop that doesn't burn my lap and I like the fact that the iMac is nearly silent. I don't need 2 x 30+ watts of 970 in an iMac when a dual core G4 at 1.5+ GHz would be a really fast machine... especially if it has DDR and even better if it has the on board memory controller that Moto has been promising.

A dual processor (core) 15" Powerbook would absolutely rock.

[pyrotoaster]

Yeah, I'm bitter towards Moto for their years of screwing Apple over. I can't wait to see a Powermac 970 sitting in my local Apple Store.

As far as I can tell, Moto is just trying to put together a last minute effort to make it look like they still care about Apple's business. The irony is that they treat Apple like dirt, but so desperately need Apple's business to avoid a catastrophic collapse of their stock price (not that that's something new to Moto and its poor employees).

I think it's a situation where Moto's pissed off Steve for the last time. I think Apple's going to shoot for a complete transition to IBM processors within the next 12+ months.

BTW, it wouldn't hurt to sell any Motorola stock you've got before June 23. I don't see it going up after that keynote. ;)

[NavyIntel007]

If they forked their processor development, they could use single core G4's in the eMac, dual core in the iMac.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Pyro i hope your right, the best thing apple can do is get that monkey(motorola) off their back. Moto has done nothing but hurt mac sales for a long time with pathetic stagnation. Interesting now that the 970 is almost to market we hear of all these new upgrades with motorola cpu's in them such as giga designs 1.42 upgrade. Moto is scrambling because they know whats coming. now announcing g4 7457 that will run at a pathetic 1.3 ghz(overclocked to what?) Dreams of 2 gigs etc etc. motorola where have you been the past 3 years while apple had to cram 2 of your lousy cpu's just to stay in the market. MOTOROLA sucks i cant say it enough.

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Pyro i hope your right, the best thing apple can do is get that monkey(motorola) off their back. Moto has done nothing but hurt mac sales for a long time with pathetic stagnation. Interesting now that the 970 is almost to market we hear of all these new upgrades with motorola cpu's in them such as giga designs 1.42 upgrade. Moto is scrambling because they know whats coming. now announcing g4 7457 that will run at a pathetic 1.3 ghz(overclocked to what?) Dreams of 2 gigs etc etc. motorola where have you been the past 3 years while apple had to cram 2 of your lousy cpu's just to stay in the market. MOTOROLA sucks i cant say it enough.
Lol. Motorola as Monkey. You just made my day. :D

But you're completely right. Maybe Moto's been in the dark, or maybe they're just attempting some damage control with the future of the iMac and eMac. Either way, it's too little, too late.

We're all bitter about how Motorola has screwed Apple over. Imagine how the great Steveness must feel. He knows more than anyone how much of a disaster Moto's become. (I hear if you mention the word "Motorola" in front of him, he goes into some kind of Luxon Hyper Rage.)

[Dont Hurt Me]

Me too,the rage that is. I was really thinking of upgrading but when the 970 shows it will be a big advancement. Then again anything would be a advancement. Looking so forward to the next 3 weeks and steves lil note at wwdc or whatever.

[RIP]

Originally posted by darkmynded_one
what other computers and operating systems support or require the PPC?

always wondered this .. any help would be greatly appreciated.
Amiga is one vendor (http://www.amiga.com/corporate/110202-eyetech.shtml), believe it or not...

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by RIP
Amiga is one vendor (http://www.amiga.com/corporate/110202-eyetech.shtml), believe it or not...

Isn't TiVo PPC-based as well? (<= 80MHz 403GCX)

http://penguinppc.org/embedded/tivo/hardware/
http://penguinppc.org/embedded/tivo/hardware/oak.shtml

Picture of IBM PowerPC chip on mobo:
http://penguinppc.org/embedded/tivo/hardware/dtivo.jpg

[mathiasr]

Originally posted by darkmynded_one
what other computers and operating systems support or require the PPC?
There's a lot of support in the embedded market: VxWorks, pSOSystem, MontaVista Linux, QNX RTOS, Precise/MQX, OSE RTOS...

What is the operating system of your car?

[iB24]

I'm new to the world of the Mac, but I never knew how bad things have gotten since I last used one. (Like six years ago) I'm in the process of switching (thinking about getting a PowerBook), but with these thoughts I might hold off 'til IBM's new offering.

But I don't know how long I can stand this damn PC! :mad:

[ZeeOwl]

Originally posted by iB24
I'm new to the world of the Mac, but I never knew how bad things have gotten since I last used one. (Like six years ago) I'm in the process of switching (thinking about getting a PowerBook), but with these thoughts I might hold off 'til IBM's new offering.

But I don't know how long I can stand this damn PC! :mad:

Buy an entry-level iBook, or if you don't need portable, an eMac. They're nice little machines, and reasonably priced. That will hold you over until the PowerMac 970's get here. Of course if you don't really need that much power, you might decide to stick with your original purchase :D

Don't let yourself get too worked up over the heated discussions here. Do you need tons of speed? As in; are you an animator, pro-videographer, musician or photographer? If yes, then you need the new faster Macs. If not, then the current models are fine.

[iB24]

I'm not a professional. I just have an interest in a few of those fields. But, I'm also waiting for Panther. Besides, I don't really need a Mac. It's more of a want.

My friend let me use his iBook recently and now I want one more than ever. I was looking into getting one, since they got updated. But now with the recent price drops of the 12" PowerBook...I just don't know.

[Gyroscope]

Maybe there was an recent agreement between IBM and Motorola in regards to the future of PPC platform in which IBM would focus on development of desktop/consoles CPU's and leave PPC for embedded market to Motorola.

Or is it just me on a bad day? :)

Regards

[Catfish_Man]

Apple NEEDS two suppliers. Look what happened when they got stuck with one last time (the G4 fiasco). If they go all IBM and IBM gets pissed at them they'll be in just as bad shape as they are now. With two suppliers, they can get price/performance competition between them.

[2112]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man
Apple NEEDS two suppliers. Look what happened when they got stuck with one last time (the G4 fiasco). If they go all IBM and IBM gets pissed at them they'll be in just as bad shape as they are now. With two suppliers, they can get price/performance competition between them.

Moto just can't compete with Moto in this field ... IBM will smoke them upon release of the 970, and that's without considering that the 970 is a 64 bits processor.

I remeber the good 'ol days when MacOSRumors reported that the 64bit G5 was coming along at 1.8GHz and that it beated the crap out of any other processor by at least 200% ... ahhh those days.

[Cappy]

Originally posted by Zaid
Does anyone think that the flurry of Moto activity recently could be read as circumstantial evidence pointing to apple picking up the 970's from IBM.

Maybe moto is trying to keep its biggest PPC client on board. Apple buys btwn half and 2/3 of motos G4s so losing those sales may be quite a big blow. Of course Moto does deserve a swift kick in the nuts :D

This echoes alot of others on this forum in that they think the PPC world(and even computing world in some cases) centers around Apple. I can't provide the numbers which I doubt you can either, ;) but last I checked Apple was in the minority for Moto's PPC customers. I believe Cisco and some auto manufacturer outnumbered Apple greatly.

[Flynnstone]

Originally posted by darkmynded_one
what other computers and operating systems support or require the PPC?

always wondered this .. any help would be greatly appreciated.

The obvious are Linux and OS X and other *nixs.
Others in the Real Time Operating System (RTOS) category is : WindRiver's VxWorks, QNX, Green Hills and many others in the smaller faster category. And likely some with no OS.

[Flynnstone]

Originally posted by cb911
on a sidenote: this might sound a bit dumb, but is a dual-core processor like a dual CPU machine? or is dual-core different? i've never read anything much about dual-core and how it works, so if anyone has some links they could post... that would be very helpful.

thanks. :)

Not dumb!
In a nutshell ... so reasonably accurate.
- Single Core - Single set of arithmetic units (ALU), Single set of registers, one die. Processors like G3, G4, PIII, P4 (non hyperthread)

- Single Core multi threaded - Single set of ALUs etc, 2 or more register sets, single die. Processors like P4 HT Hyperthreaded. Other vendors working on even more register sets. Some old 16 bit microcontrollers had multiple register sets NEC uPD78310. Advantage, ALUs etc more fully exploited. I believe the IBM 980 is here too.

- Dual core - two single core processors on one die. IBM Power4.
I believe the Power4 is one die. But things start getting gray when using MultiChip Modules (MCM)

- Dual core multithreaded. I believe the IBM Power5 is one of these beasts.

[Flynnstone]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man
Apple NEEDS two suppliers. Look what happened when they got stuck with one last time (the G4 fiasco). If they go all IBM and IBM gets pissed at them they'll be in just as bad shape as they are now. With two suppliers, they can get price/performance competition between them.

I agree. Keep the competition.
What I think Motorola needs to do is :
First - get their 7457 out into production and into Apple G4 lineup.
Save Apple some money, get the clock rate up, target as the G3 replacement (some, all? G3 made by IBM) Motorola has likely lost the high end to the IBM 970. IBM is working on the 980, this could lead to 980s on the high end and 970s on the low end in the future. Motorola out of the picture.

Second - Since the 970 appears to be quite the rocket in comparison. Moto needs to address the biggest problem with the present G4s. The processor bus is TOO slow. Learn from AMD (and I think IBM 980 is headed this way) and move the memory controller on chip. This would help in the embedded world as well. Give Apple something that is reasonable to use.

Third - do a 32/64 bit processor like the 970. Help turn Intel Itaniums back into sand.

Just my $0.02

[Cappy]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
Yeah, I'm bitter towards Moto for their years of screwing Apple over.

Once again this seems to echo most folks' opinion on this forum. Quite frankly although I've been frustrated with Moto and Apple over this, it's really Apple's fault that this happened and not Moto's. Go back to 1995 when Micheal Spindler and Apple's board were screwing Apple up completely. They were a complete disaster internally and once Amelio came in and wrote off $1 billion in one quarter with more losses the following quarters what do you think as a cpu vendor would be thinking of doing to avoid losses to its primary desktop cpu customer.

Remember at this time also IBM failed miserably on their end with providing a competitive (OS/2)/PPC platform. WinNT for PPC being killed off is what truly hurt the PPC computing platform though in the eyes of Moto. All of the fame of AIM was looking like a huge disaster. By 1997 Moto was telling everyone that they were focusing more on the embedded market. IBM was at that time talking about a G3 that could hit 1Ghz. This was around the same time Jobs took over. Look at those dates. Those were years ago. If Apple truly is moving to another vendor for all or most of their cpu's, why take this freaking forever to do it? The writing was on the wall back then just over 5 years ago(an OS can be written in 5 years).

Now this isn't to say that Moto hasn't screwed up since then but you have to keep in perspective that they're all guilty of this screwup and Apple was too stubborn to let it all go. Moto was already demonstrating that they were having business problems. I consider this a screwup for Apple that ranks up there with not listening to Gates in his recommendation of licensing the Mac OS for cloners back in '85.

Now there are several arguments that can be made as to why Apple should have stayed(contracts, no OS for another architecture, etc.). The thing you have to look at though is that even then Apple in '95 Apple only had 10%, if that, of the market. They've never actually had more than 18% if I recall correctly for as long as the Mac has shipped. Simple math and accounting should have told Apple that they better be thinking of how to migrate to other hardware just in case something happened and as for contracts, they can be broken.(something rumors tells us Moto did to Apple instead with the fabled G5)

Anyways when you get down to it, if your favorite restaurant has bad burgers do you blame the restaurant chain, the employess, or the meat provider to the restaurant. I've never heard of anyone blaming the meat provider. Consider Moto the meat provider in this case. The restaurant selects the meat provider just like Apple selects the cpu they go with. Sure there are some other variables but the jist of it is that this is Apple's fault, not Moto's and sales to customers have demonstrated this. It's the Apple faithful that can't bring themselves to point the finger at their beloved computer maker.

I like Macs and the OS quite a bit but I also work in the real world and know where Apple, Moto, and Macs stand and that is certainly not where many here would have others believe. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but it should be only from those in denial or just don't understand or know the history and logic.

Stuff happens though folks. Get over it. If Moto came out with a brand new fangled cpu next year touted above the IBM chips, more than half of those same bashers now would be crying for Apple to choose it. People will argue that this isn't true but history will tell us otherwise.

[Cappy]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man
Apple NEEDS two suppliers. Look what happened when they got stuck with one last time (the G4 fiasco). If they go all IBM and IBM gets pissed at them they'll be in just as bad shape as they are now. With two suppliers, they can get price/performance competition between them.

Back when Intel had a greater marketshare of the desktop(early 90's I believe and not I said Intel and not x86), Apple just had Moto and all was fine...at least in the eyes of the Mac faithful.

If Apple had a greater marketshare I would agree with you but I think Apple needs to go with one source and heavily invest in the company, trade patents, technology, or something since they're marketshare is so small but have plans and options to migrate to other architectures if needed. I think Apple is finally getting to this point.

Performance is what Apple needs and that takes money which comes from sales. It's almost a chicken/egg scenario. Anyone who thinks this 970 was designed strictly by or for Apple is drunk. They surely had input but IBM is out to make money and just Apple's line of systems isn't going to make them a whole lot of money to finance keeping that cpu up to par with Intel and others.

[cb911]

Originally posted by jettredmont
Kinda sorta. A dual-core machine has two complete sets of processing units on a single chip, two sets of registers associated with those, but usually a single L1/L2 cache, and always a single FSB bus heading out to the system controller chip. If the FSB is not your bottleneck, then dual-core is a great idea, and superior to dual-CPU in many ways. If the FSB is your bottleneck as with the G4, dual-core is a bit of a waste (as is the current SDP design which shares FSB ... but dual-core's shared caches at least mitigates the problem slightly). A dual-core chip will only make sense for Moto if it can (as it says it will) provide a massively improved front-side bus.

jettredmont, thanks for explaining that. so it's in many ways superior to a dual-CPU system, as long as there is a good speed FSB. sweet. now it all makes sense. :)