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jxyama
Jun 4, 2003, 01:31 PM
i'm not going to pass a judgement and assume people here don't follow sports. :D

what do you think of sammy's explanation for the corked bat?

i personally believe him... with the strength and force he swings the bat, if he had always used corked bats, i find it hard to believe that none of them shattered until yesterday.

is it just me or one thing that would help clarify the situation would be to confiscate all of his bats and scrutinize them for the evidence of corking?

Foxer
Jun 4, 2003, 01:43 PM
He's lying.

I've heard too many people with experience point out today that even the worst hitters know every inch of thier bats. They can tell the difference between a 32 and 34 ounce bat immediately. (not that hard. I worked in the mail room at college for a summer and, by the end, could accurately estimate the weight of letters for postage purposes.) He knew exactly what bat he had.

Anyway, it seems to strech credibility that on the ONE time in his career when he accidentally picked up the wrong bat it breaks on him. What awful luck, Sammy.

Oh. And what happened to the barrell of the bat? Someone at Wrigley "misplaced" it...

For certain, though, he'll never use again. So if he goes out and hits 50 home runs next year, I'll shut up. But if he only hits 25...

I admit that I never liked Sosa, but I think logic is on my side on this one. Unrelated (or maybe it is), has anyone else noticed how much smaller he is this year. The year they instituted random drug tests....

They did confisacte all his bats, though. It'll be interesting. They should break open the ones he sent to the Hall of Fame from the '98 season, too.

jxyama
Jun 4, 2003, 01:57 PM
ah, yes... you bring up good points.

he should definitely have known better, that's definitely true. if someone changed the system fonts on my Mac by 3 point sizes, I would know, right? :p

not sure if hall would be willing to break open the bat from 98, but they can probably x-ray it or something...

it's unfortunate. i never followed sammy, i personally like dominating and/or crafty pitchers and great contact "hitters" (ichiro - japanese bias a bit, edgar martinez, tony gwynn) better than sluggers, but i liked his image as a "good" ballplayer.

strider42
Jun 4, 2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Foxer
He's lying.

I've heard too many people with experience point out today that even the worst hitters know every inch of thier bats. They can tell the difference between a 32 and 34 ounce bat immediately. (not that hard. I worked in the mail room at college for a summer and, by the end, could accurately estimate the weight of letters for postage purposes.) He knew exactly what bat he had.

Anyway, it seems to strech credibility that on the ONE time in his career when he accidentally picked up the wrong bat it breaks on him. What awful luck, Sammy.

Oh. And what happened to the barrell of the bat? Someone at Wrigley "misplaced" it...

For certain, though, he'll never use again. So if he goes out and hits 50 home runs next year, I'll shut up. But if he only hits 25...

I admit that I never liked Sosa, but I think logic is on my side on this one. Unrelated (or maybe it is), has anyone else noticed how much smaller he is this year. The year they instituted random drug tests....

They did confisacte all his bats, though. It'll be interesting. They should break open the ones he sent to the Hall of Fame from the '98 season, too.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. While its true that many ball players could tell the difference in weight when comparing two bats, I'm not sure its as easy as you say. This was, afterall, the first inning. He hadn't been using another bat in a game situation to compare it with that day.

Also, the difference in weight may not have been that much. ESPN showed a segment where buck showalter showed how to cork a bat. the difference when he was done was about 1 ounce, if that. It may not be a whole lot of weight difference, maybe close enough to mistake. People can make mistakes. and from the sounds of it, there wasn't a lot of cork in there.

And as for it breaking being a coincidence, I don't think thats particularly far fetched either. If it was his batting practice bat, it wouldn't have been sued as hard or facing the harder pitching from a game. The moment its used in a more stressful situation it breaks. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

I don't think there's enough evidence to damn the damn. He's been very up front, not hiding from the media about it. He could be lying, but like I said, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

oh, and as far as the steriods thing goes, I don't think thats conclusive either. Is he really that much smaller, if at all. Looks about the same to me. Could be he's not quite as cut anymore, but that could just be from getting a bit older and not hitting the weights as hard.

If any of this is proved otherwise, I'll be the first to say he's a cheat and bad for baseball, but without more proof against a guy who has lead an honorable career overall, I won't judge him.

Rower_CPU
Jun 4, 2003, 01:59 PM
Yeah, it's certainly a let down to think that someone who was in the thick of the HR race got caught using a corked bat.

We'll see what happens with the investigation.

Kid Red
Jun 4, 2003, 02:15 PM
He uses the bat during batting practice for the fans. So, I guess he has more then one bat to get used to therefore providing validity to his 'not knowing which bat he had'.

Secondly, why would he need it? ESPN already noted that some chump with a corked bat is not going to hit 60 HRs or have his total for his carer. So, why would he purposely use a corked bat? That's like McGuire using a corked bat, or Tiger using a laced golf ball, or Jordan using springs in his shoes.

Why? Why would he use a corked bat? That's exactly why I believe him.

Kid Red
Jun 4, 2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Yeah, it's certainly a let down to think that someone who was in the thick of the HR race got caught using a corked bat.

We'll see what happens with the investigation.

A corked bat is not going to magically make 60 balls fly over the wall. It might add a few to your overall yearly total but it's not going to make you a home run hitter if you are not already a home run hitter.

jxyama
Jun 4, 2003, 02:25 PM
just as a side... it's far from an established fact that a corked bat helps to hit a ball further... it might be more of a mental gimmick...

dunno, i don't think this will discredit sammy's numbers. like many people posted, you can't get numbers like sammy's just by using corked bats. however, this will definitely discreit much of adoration sammy was able to command as a "good" ballplayer and a person.

Foxer
Jun 4, 2003, 03:33 PM
My understanding is that it will add about 5 to 10 feet of distance. Over the course of the year, that is not insignificant. Especially if you already have Warning Track Power. If it doesn't add anything to your stroke 1)why is it illegal, and 2)why do players try to get around the illegality?

For Sammy to say he didn't know what bat he had on is like me saying that I didn't know which clothes I wore to work this morning. It just doesn't wash. If indeed he has corked bats to use in BP (which would be stupid. the whole point of BP is to get ready for the game), you'd think he'd mark them better to avoid just this event.

Regardless of whether this was a one-time thing or a pattern of abuse all his stats are now tainted. EVERY time we see him hit a homer, in the back of our minds, we'll wonder. That's not good the game.

By the by, I think there is a great deal of rush to defend Sosa b/c he is seen as a likable guy. Just becasue he smiles and never says anything. What if it were Barry Bonds. We'd have already burried him and stripped of his records.

Rower_CPU
Jun 4, 2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Kid Red
A corked bat is not going to magically make 60 balls fly over the wall. It might add a few to your overall yearly total but it's not going to make you a home run hitter if you are not already a home run hitter.

Well, in a race where a guy beats you a few it makes a big difference. ;)

pEZ
Jun 4, 2003, 03:50 PM
As a Chicago native, I can't possibly believe any of it unless he's proven guilty. I know so many people in and around my neighborhood that see him as a role model - it would be earth-shattering if he were a cheat.

If Sammy did in fact cork the bat, I would be inconsolably ashamed for my city - I don't want that.

strider42
Jun 4, 2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Foxer
My understanding is that it will add about 5 to 10 feet of distance. Over the course of the year, that is not insignificant. Especially if you already have Warning Track Power. If it doesn't add anything to your stroke 1)why is it illegal, and 2)why do players try to get around the illegality?

its illegal and players do it sometimes because people think/assume it makes a difference. not because anything has been proven. You are after all trading off the mass behind the stroke in order to gain a bit of velocity. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a corked bat resulted in more balls in play (because the bat speed is quicker), but not necessarily more power. I'm no physics major, but without a real scientific study (which has never been done to my knowledge). You really think people need proof of something in order to think it helps. Is there any proof ephedra works? or creatine? or herbal remedies, etc, etc, etc. People use them because of anecdotal evidence, because it makes some sort of sense to them. Not because it actually does what they say it will.

Foxer
Jun 4, 2003, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by strider42
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a corked bat resulted in more balls in play (because the bat speed is quicker), but not necessarily more power. I'm no physics major, but without a real scientific study (which has never been done to my knowledge).

There have been many scientific studies that show that it is bat speed that generates power. That's why a fastball going 95 mph is much more likely to be hit out (assuming you can catch up to it)than a piece of off-speed junk floating in at 70 mph. Anything that results in a greater combined speed when ball meets wood will increase distance.

Prior to these tests (the first were done in the 40's), it was assumed that bat weight was the determining factor. That's why Babe Ruth and his ilk toted these ridiculous 40 oz bats around.

strider42
Jun 4, 2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Foxer
There have been many scientific studies that show that it is bat speed that generates power. That's why a fastball going 95 mph is much more likely to be hit out (assuming you can catch up to it)than a piece of off-speed junk floating in at 70 mph. Anything that results in a greater combined speed when ball meets wood will increase distance.

Prior to these tests (the first were done in the 40's), it was assumed that bat weight was the determining factor. That's why Babe Ruth and his ilk toted these ridiculous 40 oz bats around.

Not to be contrary, but what does a 95 mph fast ball have to do with bat speed. You can swing at the same speed at a ball thats 75 as you can at a ball thats 95. its all about timing. Ever see a hanging curve ball going in the mid 80's get launched out of a stadium. I would think there's a relation there. if you could increase bat speed and keep weight up, power would go up. If you could increase the weight without changing bat speed, power would go up. Since those two things are impossible, you have to find a happy medium, a point on the graph where there two intersect to create the most power. hence the lower bat weight of today. Also, bats today are differently shaped, with very thin handles. All the weight is pushed into the barrel for maximum force. This is another reason bats have been able to shrink (and not to mention why they break a lot mroe often. You think it would be conceivable for Roy Hobbs in the natural to have played witht he same bat all year if it was one of today's bats). So its obviously not as simple as bat speed. Do aluminium bats actually travel farther than wood bats. i don't know. And if they do, how much of that has to do with the power transferring properties of metal v. wood (or in the major leagues, maple bats v. traditional ash bats). Its a very complicated equation.

Like I said, I'm no physics major, but I don't think there have been as many real scientific studies as people think. ESPN was reporting the no one knows if corking a bat makes it go farther, and I would think their fact checkers and research department would have been able to find something if it was there. They and I could be wrong, but can someone actually point to a study.

Consider also other sports. In tennis, pete sampras, one of the fastest servers on tour back in the day, used an insanely heavy raquet. faster severs don't use lighter equipment. Or in golf, drivers are heavy clubs, not light ones (though they have gotten around that to a certain degree by increasing swing speed using flexible shafts and longer handles) If I use the same shaft and used a machine to keep swing speed the same, whats going to go further, a heavier club or a lighter club. Thats what needs to be done, tests using machines with bats made of the same material and of the same dimensions, if you want to actually haev an answer. I know of no such tests.

mkubal
Jun 4, 2003, 05:19 PM
Having played varsity baseball in highschool just a few years ago I can say that considering that corking the bat reduces its weight by an about an ounce it's not that unlikely that he really didn't know that he was using his corked bat. The only way you can really notice an ounce difference is if you're actively thinking about it. Even if it did seem lighter to him when he went up to bat he might have attributed it to adrenaline. This bat surely looked just like his other bats and I'm willing to think he could have slipped up.

I think this will cause severe damage to his reputation, but I think we should wait and see if they find anything in those other bats. If they don't I would be inclined to believe his story, but I would still have to take into account that he was in a bit of a slump and I wouldn't put it past any major league player to go to such lengths to gain an edge.

Matt

MrMacMan
Jun 4, 2003, 05:42 PM
The corked bat doesn't give you what you people are describing... instead of a 400 ft HR you might get a 410.

He HAD, and HAS used this bat it practice to zip the balls far and fast into the crowd, these are normally for show, but his reason is BS.

Every player execpt Mo Vaughn knows how heavy their bat is.

'I was becoming more and more tired, and then one day I weighted my bat and low and behold it was 4 ounces heavier'

That is Mo's Story.... :confused:

Pretty dumb...

pseudobrit
Jun 4, 2003, 05:46 PM
Do the pros warm up with ring weights on their bats? I know that can throw off your perception of weight. In hockey, I warm up with a heavy wood stick with three pucks taped to the back of the blade, then bring out my Synergy for the game. It's like holding nothing.

strider42
Jun 4, 2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Do the pros warm up with ring weights on their bats? I know that can throw off your perception of weight. In hockey, I warm up with a heavy wood stick with three pucks taped to the back of the blade, then bring out my Synergy for the game. It's like holding nothing.

yes they do. As you say, it throws off weight perception. Joe morgan, a hall of famer, has a thing on ESPN.com where he mentions in so many words how its possibly to not notice the weight. You know, I'll take it from real ball players, who know how easy it is to not know something is 1 ounce lighter than something you havent even picked up that day. Anyone who thinks a major leaguer could, without comaprison, tell if an identicle bat is 1 ounce lighter or not with absolute certainty, after warming up and going to bat in a real game, is just making up reasons to crucify a man with absolutely no proof of any intentional wrong doing.

incidentally, they checked out 77 other bats of his today, nary a piece of cork found. That doesn't make him innocent, but certainly, nothing has been presented to show that what he says happened didn't.

QCassidy352
Jun 4, 2003, 06:18 PM
76 of his bats were inspected. There were no more that had cork.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0604/1563115.html

edit: haha, beat me to it strider

Foxer
Jun 4, 2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by strider42 Not to be contrary, but what does a 95 mph fast ball have to do with bat speed. You can swing at the same speed at a ball thats 75 as you can at a ball thats 95.

A 95 mph fastball results in faster impact speed. Just like two cars that hit head on, there's more energy resulting between faster moving objects.

Think about it. It makes sense.

Foxer
Jun 4, 2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by QCassidy352
76 of his bats were inspected. There were no more that had cork.

Because his real bats are at the bottom of Lake Michigan.


sorry about the successive posts.

tazo
Jun 4, 2003, 07:22 PM
And pretty soon the ACLU will get involved and say that they are confiscating his bats because he is hispanic.


-tazo

jxyama
Jun 5, 2003, 08:23 AM
the kinetic energy generated by the bat is proportional to the mass of the bat and square of the speed. (KE=1/2 m v^2) this is the reason why bats are getting lighter. it's much more beneficial to increase the speed than to increase the mass. when the bat hits the ball, this energy is transfered to the ball.

consequently, more energy carried by the ball (since each ball has the same mass, faster the pitch, more energy), more energy is available to carry the ball. so faster pitches do travel further if hit by the same bat swung at the same speed.

because the rest of his bats checked out, i believe sammy more now. they are also considering going to the hall of fame to x-ray 5 bats he donated there, including ones from 1998 when he was racing mcgwire and earlier this year when sammy hit his 500th.

pseudobrit
Jun 5, 2003, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by tazo
And pretty soon the ACLU will get involved and say that they are confiscating his bats because he is hispanic.

I know that was just a joke, but do you have any idea of the work that the ACLU really does on a daily basis (other than get made fun of for the "silly" cases that make it in the headlines or have jokes made about them)? Would you make fun of the Anti-Defamation League?

pseudobrit
Jun 5, 2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by jxyama
the kinetic energy generated by the bat is proportional to the mass of the bat and square of the speed. (KE=1/2 m v^2) this is the reason why bats are getting lighter. it's much more beneficial to increase the speed than to increase the mass. when the bat hits the ball, this energy is transfered to the ball.

Might there also be something about the mechanics of the bat being hollow (the walls transferring energy differently than a solid stick)?

Foxer
Jun 5, 2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by jxyama
because the rest of his bats checked out, i believe sammy more now.

Check out Snady Alderson (MLB's rep on the matter). He said that all the bats that they were able to obtain checked out. The room in which the bats were stored was locked, according to the stories I've read, for a period of time before the MLB reps were admtted to collect bats.

Anyway, even IF there was only one corked bat, it sort of makes his story even less creidble. Out of 70-some bats, he ACCIDENTALLY took the SINGLE ONE that was corked. Spent several minutes with it in the dugout on and in the warm-up circle and never noticed?

Come on, people! Stop beleiveing the whole "baeball's be bery, bery good to me" line and admit that Sammy cheated.

I'll never, ever undersstand Cub fans...

pseudobrit
Jun 5, 2003, 09:42 AM
I'm not a Cubs fan. Hell, I don't even follow baseball. But I don't think he knowingly cheated. I think they warm up with a different bat (I used to pick three up and swing for warmup) than what they bat with... I could be wrong.

Foxer
Jun 5, 2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
I think they warm up with a different bat (I used to pick three up and swing for warmup) than what they bat with... I could be wrong.

I'm not trying to quibble, but I have to disagree. Every batter I've watched (and I have season tickets in the section behind the warm-up circle at Miller Park) in person or on TV warms up with their "gamer." Many will bring "donuts" (weights which fit around the bat) to use while they prepare. I used to swin two bats in the warm-up circle, too. But I was playing a parks and rec league in which such compromises were to be expected.

pseudobrit
Jun 5, 2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Foxer
I'm not trying to quibble, but I have to disagree. Every batter I've watched (and I have season tickets in the section behind the warm-up circle at Miller Park) in person or on TV warms up with their "gamer." Many will bring "donuts" (weights which fit around the bat) to use while they prepare. I used to swin two bats in the warm-up circle, too. But I was playing a parks and rec league in which such compromises were to be expected.

Like I said; I wasn't sure. Anyone know if this was Sosa's routine?

jxyama
Jun 5, 2003, 10:54 AM
i'm definitely not going to argue that sammy cheated. he did. he used a corked bat in an official game. what i'd like to know is whether he has been cheating or not prior to this.

i'd like to believe he didn't. and i don't think he did.

of course, foxer, you are entitled to your views and that's fine... some of us like to think he didn't cheat before until proven otherwise and some of us like to think that he did cheat before until proven otherwise...

i can understand your view though... since he is "guilty," the burden falls on him to prove himself otherwise. i'd be interested to see if they'll really test the hall of fame bats or not. if sammy really isn't a habitual cheater, he himself should request they be checked. if one can't trust that the hall would take care of its belongings, well, then nothing can be trusted then...

Foxer
Jun 5, 2003, 11:30 AM
I think that only time will tell. Doubt has been cast on many of his accomplishments up to this point. I think that even he knows this, or soon will. I doubt he will ever use another corked bat, because everyone will be watching him. Therefore, I think we have to wait and see what happens. If he hits 50 HR's next year, that will do a great deal to clear his reputation. If he only hits 25...

Regardless, it's something on which the jury will be out for sometime.

pEZ
Jun 5, 2003, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Foxer
I'll never, ever undersstand Cub fans...

Considering you are from Milwaukee, that's exactly right.

I'd just like to know why you are so adamant about the "fact" that Sammy cheated. True, he used a corked bat in an official game. That fact was dealt with during the game itself. But did Sammy mean to use the corked bat? I doubt it. He might have problems with his English, but I don't think he's a moron.

I tend to believe him because he's not being defensive at all. He's trying to protect his reputation, and the only way he can do that is by the test of time.

All of this coming from a Sox fan. He's not just a Cubs player, he's both a Chicago and a National icon.

Flowbee
Jun 5, 2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by pEZ
Considering you are from Milwaukee, that's exactly right.

I'd just like to know why you are so adamant about the "fact" that Sammy cheated. True, he used a corked bat in an official game. That fact was dealt with during the game itself. But did Sammy mean to use the corked bat? I doubt it. He might have problems with his English, but I don't think he's a moron.



How many years has he been a professional ball player? And you mean to tell me that he can't feel the difference between a corked bat and his "regular" bat just by picking it up? Shoot, I only play a couple dozen games a year (just for fun with my friends) and I can even tell when I've accidently picked up the wrong bat. Believe me, pro players are very obsessive when it comes to their equipment, and I think Sammy knew exactly which bat he was swinging that night.

jxyama
Jun 5, 2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Flowbee
How many years has he been a professional ball player? And you mean to tell me that he can't feel the difference between a corked bat and his "regular" bat just by picking it up? Shoot, I only play a couple dozen games a year (just for fun with my friends) and I can even tell when I've accidently picked up the wrong bat. Believe me, pro players are very obsessive when it comes to their equipment, and I think Sammy knew exactly which bat he was swinging that night.

let's not generalize too fast here... do you have 70+ bats, all alike, except maybe for paint? i know he won't be selecting one game bat out of that many, but just a thought...

i, however, fault sammy for failing to clearly mark the corked one as such for his own sake.

Foxer
Jun 5, 2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by pEZ
Considering you are from Milwaukee, that's exactly right.

I'd just like to know why you are so adamant about the "fact" that Sammy cheated. True, he used a corked bat in an official game. That fact was dealt with during the game itself. But did Sammy mean to use the corked bat? I doubt it.

I only moved to Milwaukee in 2001, so this isn't some petty jurisdictional thing. I didn't understand Cubs fans when I lived in DC either.:D

It just seems that, from everything I've ever learned in following this game like a religion for 20+ years, his story isn't credible. For a hitter, their bat is their most prized possession. They order them to specific standards. The work the wood to shave down the handle to just the right width. And know Sosa wants us to believe that he grabbed the wrong bat and didn't realize it. And that bat just happened to be corked. I'm sorry, it just doesn't wash. You ahve to believe too many coincidences. Hocum's Razor, or whatever that is: The simplist explanation is usually the correct one.

jxyama
Jun 5, 2003, 04:18 PM
they x-ray'd 5 bats sammy donated to the hall. all came back negative.

here's a quote from an AP article:

-----

Sosa uses bats made by three different manufacturers. While each brand is visibly different, Alderson said all bats made by the same maker look similar. The bat Sosa used Tuesday night was made by Tuffbat.

[Chipper] Jones said it's easy to see how Sosa could have grabbed the wrong bat.

"I've got five boxes of bats in there," Jones said. "Bat doesn't feel good, you throw it in this box. Bat feels good, OK, that's going to be a gamer. You go 10 at-bats without getting a hit, you throw it in a box, get a new one. You're always interchanging."

-----

these don't prove anything, i know, but foxer, you may want to ease your stance a little... i love baseball too. but the simplest explanation in this case can be that sammy's actually telling the truth. afterall, a hitter like him is unlikely to derive enough benefit from a corked bat to make it worth taking the risk... i'm hoping it's an honest mistake by sammy in trying to put on a show for the fans in BP...

pseudobrit
Jun 5, 2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Flowbee
How many years has he been a professional ball player? And you mean to tell me that he can't feel the difference between a corked bat and his "regular" bat just by picking it up?

This has already been discussed and the conclusion is "no."

Say I give you a pair of identical weights, except that one is a 5 pound weight and one a 5.5 pound weight, and I make you lift them 5 times an hour every day for a month.

Now by the end of the month you may be able to tell which one you've picked up just by feeling its weight with 100% accuracy by this point.

Now, to test you, I make you do 50 reps with a 50 pound weight, and randomly hand you one weight and an offer of $5,000 to tell me which it is. Will you be able to tell me which one you are holding beyond 50% accuracy?

We was batting cold with a 1 oz lighter bat after warming up with a ring. He wouldn't have been able to tell even if he were thinking about it. If he knew about it, he still wouldn't have been able to tell by weight alone.

Flowbee
Jun 5, 2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
This has already been discussed and the conclusion is "no."



I think you mean *your* conclusion is "no."

PS - I'm not sure what all of that nonsense about 5 lb weights and 50lb weights has to do with anything.

pseudobrit
Jun 5, 2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Flowbee
I think you mean *your* conclusion is "no."

PS - I'm not sure what all of that nonsense about 5 lb weights and 50lb weights has to do with anything.

The conclusion of baseball experts and professionals was "no," he wouldn't be able to tell.

The 5lb weights has to do with weight perception and how it drastically changes after your muscles are fatigued. Have you ever lifted weights? Notice how light everything feels afterwards?

Have you ever played baseball and warmed up with two bats or a donut? The bat feels light as a feather. It's hardly a state to be in when one is expected to tell a difference of one ounce!

Flowbee
Jun 5, 2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
The conclusion of baseball experts and professionals was "no," he wouldn't be able to tell.

The 5lb weights has to do with weight perception and how it drastically changes after your muscles are fatigued. Have you ever lifted weights? Notice how light everything feels afterwards?

[/i]

I still don't think it's a meaningful comparison, but in your "weight challenge" if one warmed up with the 50lb weight *every time* before guessing the 5 or 5.5 pound weight, it seems possible that after one month or two, a professional weight lifter would be able to tell the difference. And while it may sound super-human, after a 10+ year career in the majors, it's not unreasonable to believe that a player becomes attuned enough to the equipmnet that he can distinguish subtle differences in weight.

wdlove
Jun 5, 2003, 09:15 PM
I just hope that he gets a fair hearing. Accidents do happen. I'm not a baseball fan, but is it common to use the cork bat in practice?

tazo
Jun 5, 2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
I know that was just a joke, but do you have any idea of the work that the ACLU really does on a daily basis (other than get made fun of for the "silly" cases that make it in the headlines or have jokes made about them)? Would you make fun of the Anti-Defamation League?

If what they do demeans everything I believe in then quite possibly.

jxyama
Jun 6, 2003, 08:46 AM
answering about the use of corked bat in practice... joe morgan (a hall of fame 2nd baseman... arguably the best 2nd baseman ever...) wrote this on espn:

"Since Sosa's bats were demonstrated to be clean, I accept his explanation. In fact, I understand how a batter could use a corked bat by mistake -- because it happened to me once.

I had two or three corked bats -- made for me by a carpenter -- that I used for batting practice when I played with the San Francisco Giants in 1981. We used them because the cold conditions made our hands hurt during BP. The corked bat would soften the sting and protect my hands. I also used aluminum bats during batting practice, for the same reason.

One day, I forgot to take the corked bats back to my clubhouse locker after BP. During the game, I broke one of my bats, and the bat boy brought a couple of other bats to me. I just grabbed one, because all my bats were the same. After I hit a fly ball to right field, I thought, "That didn't feel right." I went back to look at the bat, and sure enough -- it was the corked bat I had used in BP and forgotten to put away."

i realize nothing is ever a definitive proof, but this is quite an amazing statement/confession coming from a very well respected baseball player.

wdlove
Jun 6, 2003, 10:12 AM
I give Joe Morgan great credit for admitting to accidentally using a corked bat in a game!

Foxer
Jun 6, 2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
The conclusion of baseball experts and professionals was "no," he wouldn't be able to tell.

The conclusion of the baseball experts you listen to, that is.

Look, baseball players are one of the tightest fraternities out there. Look what they did to Bouten (sp) after he wrote Ball Four. Ken Caminiti and Canseco are totally ostracised for talking about steroids. Of course a number of them are going to rally around Sosa. I love Joe Morgan. He's a pleasure to listen to. He is also one of the biggest company men out there. I've never heard him criticize any player, aside from the "that was a bad throw" kind of thing.

It's much more telling that you have significant numbers of players who say he had to have known. More disturbing is the casual acceptance of older "greats" (like McCovey and Aaron) who don't seem to even question that he did it.

If he hits 50 next year, start a thread on it and I'll apologize. Until then, the burden is on Sosa to show that he isn't a juiced-up, corking, liar.

pseudobrit
Jun 6, 2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Foxer
The conclusion of the baseball experts you listen to, that is.

Post a link to an article by a sportswriter that says he knew he was cheating because he would have been able to tell.