Vista, first hand. [Archive]

deputy_doofy

Mar 11, 2007, 11:48 AM

Yesterday, I was at my friend's house and he was asked to configure a brand new laptop for his friend's daughter. By configure, he meant taking off all the trial crap and give it some software.

It was a Compaq, 1.73GHz Celeron M (yes, that's right, the CELERY chip), with 512mb RAM.
Doing some research, I found that this version of the Celeron was the poor man's version of Yonah (Core Solo).

Now, I have gotten into minor arguments with people before that there is NO value in a Celeron chip. I still think people who buy it have been duped... and should have just given me their money. NO computer at all has about the same performance. My G3 600MHz iBook used to beat most 2.4 Celery machines and my PB 12" G4 used to PWN most Celerons at double the speed (*ahem* MHz). :p

Anyway, this laptop was $500. For $500, one can buy a CHEAP laptop that can barely perform, thanks to Vista. In XP, a Celeron was barely good, but in Vista..... even Windows rates the experience a 2.0.

Yes, I am now educated in a NEW scheme by MS to confuse customers even further. Windows Vista will give you a "Windows Experience Index" rating, which tells you how good your hardware is (for Vista). For years, MS + Intel played the MHz/GHz game to "educate" people. However, now people are going to be confused by this new system. MS recommends that people only buy software that has the same base score or lower. So, someone may think their machine is great because it is 1.73GHz (yes, WE know better) and will not understand why they can only buy software rated 2 or lower.

Finally, it seems that my friend may be going Mac.
1) He HATES Windows Vista. Admittedly, he really does like XP.
2) Configuring a Dell with MacBook specs, the Dell came out to be about $100 cheaper. That's it. For the extra $100, he gets the remote, the camera, a stable OS, AND the ability to install Windows with it. Yes, he will do that (even I have Windows, just for the fun of it). For an extra hundred dollars, he gets TWO OS's.

I think Vista really is the end of MS as an important company. MY 2 cents.

nsbio

Mar 11, 2007, 12:07 PM

Not for the extra 100 - you have to factor in the vista price, which would be ~300-ish. So the cost of running two OSs is ~$400 or an extra 25-30% of the price of the machine.

Incidentally, is it true that Mac users are the only people who would buy retail full versions of Vista? PC users get an OEM version or buy an upgrade. Microsoft should be very happy about it and be glad that Macs exist.

deputy_doofy

Mar 11, 2007, 12:11 PM

Not for the extra 100 - you have to factor in the vista cost, which would be ~300-ish. So the cost of running two OSs is ~$400 or an extra 25-30% of the price of the machine.

True, but I have this sneaky suspicion he may just install XP as his secondary OS. Then again, the MacBook can handle Vista much better than that Compaq.

iJawn108

Mar 11, 2007, 12:15 PM

the best way to experience windows on a mac is volume licensing :D
no hasstle with ms, can have as man vms as you want its great. lol

louden

Mar 11, 2007, 01:05 PM

It was a Compaq, 1.73GHz Celeron M (yes, that's right, the CELERY chip), with 512mb RAM.

Good lord - do you think MacOS would run will on that hardware? Of course not! Apple makes great hardware, but you'll have a restrictive upgrade path and you pay for a premium. I'm fine with that, as they're great hardware innovators. I love my MPB.

Microsoft doesn't work with a closed set of hardware choices, they try to work with everyone. That's what makes them successful. When you do run Vista on nice hardware (MB/MBP C2D) - it's great! When you try to run it on underperforming hardware, of course it's going to suck.

Mac OS has Vista beat because it is easy to use, rock solid, and fun to use.

Vista has Mac OS beat because there's more software that can run on Vista - software that I want to use.

What are you going to do when Leopard comes out and it doesn't run well (if at all) on the old Mac Book Pro Core Duos? That's a very similar situation to what your friend has faced.

risc

Mar 11, 2007, 01:22 PM

I think Vista really is the end of MS as an important company.

HAHA, that's the funniest thing I've read in a long time!

slicedbread

Mar 11, 2007, 01:24 PM

Incidentally, is it true that Mac users are the only people who would buy retail full versions of Vista? PC users get an OEM version or buy an upgrade. Microsoft should be very happy about it and be glad that Macs exist.

AFAIK mac users can still get OEM Windows. Its the issue of licensing that allows vista to be run in a VM only on Business and ultimate versions of vista.

nsbio

Mar 11, 2007, 02:40 PM

AFAIK mac users can still get OEM Windows. Its the issue of licensing that allows vista to be run in a VM only on Business and ultimate versions of vista.

Yes, the savvy users could probably get the cheaper, OEM, version. But the question still remains as to who is supposed to buy a retail full version Vista box: there seems to be absolutely no market for it except for Mac users and maybe Bill Gates himself who might buy a couple million of boxes "just for kicks" :).

slicedbread

Mar 11, 2007, 04:05 PM

synth3tik

Mar 11, 2007, 04:14 PM

Eric5h5

Mar 11, 2007, 04:26 PM

What are you going to do when Leopard comes out and it doesn't run well (if at all) on the old Mac Book Pro Core Duos?

Why would that ever happen? Every MacOS X version has been faster than the previous one. It's not like Windows at all. The only negative has been increased memory usage (but it's looking like Leopard will actually reverse that trend, in at least some instances).

--Eric

stadidas

Mar 11, 2007, 05:57 PM

Why would that ever happen? Every MacOS X version has been faster than the previous one. It's not like Windows at all. The only negative has been increased memory usage (but it's looking like Leopard will actually reverse that trend, in at least some instances).

--Eric

Couldn't have said it better myself. Apple actually give people a reason to upgrade.

slicedbread

Mar 11, 2007, 06:16 PM

I don't even know why intel came out with the celeron. I had a Toshiba with a 1.3G Celeron and my friends 533Mhz IBM Thinkpad kicked it's ass. I see the ads for laptops with celeron chips that state "Vista Ready" My question is how? I could hardly run Win 2k on it...

Coz they can still market a celeron chip at xxx Mhz even though in reality it runs like a turd. And to be fair, for basic use like Word and IE only, a celeron is passable...

psycoswimmer

Mar 11, 2007, 06:23 PM

What are you going to do when Leopard comes out and it doesn't run well (if at all) on the old Mac Book Pro Core Duos? That's a very similar situation to what your friend has faced.

Someone on another thread was running Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) on their 6 year old Powerbook.

MacRumorUser

Mar 11, 2007, 06:37 PM

to be honest, who buys windows?? :)

Most people's OS comes bundled with their Dells and HP's. If you have an old PC should you even be getting vista - I doubt you have the 2GB ram and graphics that is needed to get it running? And if you are savvy enough to build a PC you're gonna get OEM.

Exactly. At $200 for home upgrade upto $500 for Ultimate retail, very few people will justify that purchase, especially when they can buy a dell for $500-600 which comes with the OS anyway.

Eraserhead

Mar 11, 2007, 06:44 PM

Exactly. At $200 for home upgrade upto $500 for Ultimate retail, very few people will justify that purchase, especially when they can buy a dell for $500-600 which comes with the OS anyway.

And given that you have to reformat to get decent performance, and that you need a pretty new machine makes it crazy to upgrade to Vista unless you are in a tiny minority, I'd expect Leopard to sell more retail copies than Vista.

thejadedmonkey

Mar 11, 2007, 06:45 PM

Someone on another thread was running Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) on their 6 year old Powerbook.

Which I don't even think was called a powerbook, but a prismo.

I installed Vista on my mac, and it's horrible. and I guess because of the drivers, there's no Aero interface. I mean, it's just hideous too.

Someone was laughing at a comment about Vista being the end of MS, but the honest truth is that it just might be the beginning of the end. Dell and HP are looking at Linux, suddenly macs just became "real" computers, and Microsoft's newest OS isn't anything that people like. Sure under the hood it's good, but that's not what anyone sees. Consumers see ugly, and IT peeps see annoyances.
</RANT>

siurpeeman

Mar 11, 2007, 07:03 PM

Dell and HP are looking at Linux, suddenly macs just became "real" computers, and Microsoft's newest OS isn't anything that people like. Sure under the hood it's good, but that's not what anyone sees. Consumers see ugly, and IT peeps see annoyances.
</RANT>

i find a lot of people like vista very much. most of my friends are windows users, and they're taken by vista's visuals and features. while things like integrated search isn't new to us, it is new to them, and they're taking quite a liking to vista. i don't see this as the end of microsoft. they have too many users to just disappear.

slicedbread

Mar 11, 2007, 07:11 PM

Exactly. At $200 for home upgrade upto $500 for Ultimate retail, very few people will justify that purchase, especially when they can buy a dell for $500-600 which comes with the OS anyway.

MS really pisses me off with their arrogance.
1) you can't do a fresh install on an upgrade license - changing the way the upgrade disc system has worked after allowing it for the last 5+ OS iterations!
2) you cant run the cheaper versions of vista in a VM - clearly gouging us mac users (and anyone else who gets in their way)
3) oem versions are 32bit or 64bit only, you get one and you are stuck with that version only. (And even retail gets you 32bit only, you have to pay to get the 64bit disc sent to you.)
Wanna move to 64bit later while you give it time for 64bit drivers? Tough, buy a new version of the same OS later thanks!
Want 64bit now? Please enjoy your driver hell.
4) How come they don't have family versions or multiple copy discounts? I know LOADS of people with a main desktop + laptop, not to mention the kid's and family computers. Whatever happened to software that you can install anywhere and just be allowed to have one active copy running??

As you can tell, I'm not pleased with MS's anti-competition/anti-consumer/anti-fair use policies.

Just an FYI - if you can get a copy of the vista install disc, you can install it without entering a license key and it will run for 30days as a trial w/ full functionality. You can also legally and legitimately extend these 30day trails 3 times for a total of 120days before you are forced to put a license key in. Surely should be enough time for anyone to be put off their crapware!

TBi

Mar 11, 2007, 07:27 PM

MS really pisses me off with their arrogance.
1) you can't do a fresh install on an upgrade license - changing the way the upgrade disc system has worked after allowing it for the last 5+ OS iterations!
2) you cant run the cheaper versions of vista in a VM - clearly gouging us mac users (and anyone else who gets in their way)
3) oem versions are 32bit or 64bit only, you get one and you are stuck with that version only. (And even retail gets you 32bit only, you have to pay to get the 64bit disc sent to you.)
Wanna move to 64bit later while you give it time for 64bit drivers? Tough, buy a new version of the same OS later thanks!
Want 64bit now? Please enjoy your driver hell.
4) How come they don't have family versions or multiple copy discounts? I know LOADS of people with a main desktop + laptop, not to mention the kid's and family computers. Whatever happened to software that you can install anywhere and just be allowed to have one active copy running??

As you can tell, I'm not pleased with MS's anti-competition/anti-consumer/anti-fair use policies.

Just an FYI - if you can get a copy of the vista install disc, you can install it without entering a license key and it will run for 30days as a trial w/ full functionality. You can also legally and legitimately extend these 30day trails 3 times for a total of 120days before you are forced to put a license key in. Surely should be enough time for anyone to be put off their crapware!

Ugh...

2) Nothing will physically stop you except your conscience...

3) Retail has both editions on one dvd

4) and they have a family pack thing now. Buy one ultimate and you get home's for 50 each.

deputy_doofy

Mar 11, 2007, 10:14 PM

HAHA, that's the funniest thing I've read in a long time!

I didn't mean it would be an immediate end, but you have to admit, this is bad press for them. I haven't seen ONE favorable review of Vista yet, and I've been trying to find one in any PC magazine or website.
There does come a time when the buying public has had enough and this may be the breaking point...

xUKHCx

Mar 11, 2007, 10:24 PM

I haven't seen ONE favorable review of Vista yet, and I've been trying to find one in any PC magazine or website.

May check out this site (http://www.winsupersite.com/vista/).

I installed Vista, Aero is alright but the whole flip 3d is complete crud. For example there is no obvious way to get the mouse to activate it. For anyone interested: "To do so, select the mouse button you'd like to use (I'm using this with the scroll wheel button) and change its button assignment to "C:\Windows\System32\rundll32.exe dwmapi #105" (no quotes). Voila!" taken from then site above.

Because that is simple.

It seems as if they changed things just for the sake of changing things. "Add or remove programs" is now "programs and features" IIRC. Trying to find things in help is a pain and then being able to follow the instructions to find the thing they are telling you about i a right pain, (referring to Office 2007 as well as vista.)

Office 2007 would not install properly would error everytime. I had to manual go through the registry and delete any reference to Office 2000 and delete all associated files to get it to work.

slicedbread

Mar 11, 2007, 10:36 PM

Ugh...
2) Nothing will physically stop you except your conscience...
3) Retail has both editions on one dvd
4) and they have a family pack thing now. Buy one ultimate and you get home's for 50 each.

2) if I didn't want to use windows as its meant to be licensed, there are plenty of other avenues I can go about that, without even having to give MS a penny...

3) I stand corrected, in Ultimate 64bit is bundled with it. But other retail versions of vista you need to send a coupon off for the 64bit media:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/1033/ordermedia/default.mspx

4) The family pack of Vista is for North America only, us Brits (or anyone else in the world) get no love. And only if you get retail Ultimate as well.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/buyorupgrade/familydiscount.mspx#qualify
"The Windows Vista Family Discount is available to customers in the United States and Canada who have purchased the full or upgrade Windows Vista Ultimate retail boxed product."
And Tiger family pack is $199 for 5 Macs.
Vista Ultimate retail is $400, plus $50 per additional home premium license (for a max of 2) = $500 for 3 PCs (in which 2 are crippled relative to ultimate)

louden

Mar 12, 2007, 03:08 AM

Someone on another thread was running Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) on their 6 year old Powerbook.

I (still) have the last and latest rev of a 12" PB - probably 3 years old, and sure it runs Tiger and is fair for browsing, but did you try to run an universal app on it? It's dog slow. I'm sure it's comparable to a 2.0 Vista performance on some other PC (which I have at work). All hardware - apple or ms becomes obsolete. Apple hardware is sexier and more expensive to start with, and therefore you'll have to assume it's going to depreciate more over time. Hell, look at the notes on the MB and MBP web site touting the 7X speed differences. Is Apple lying?

When we get a copy of Leopard that runs faster on the same hardware as today, I'll eat my words, but I'll bet you need more horsepower to run it.

louden

Mar 12, 2007, 03:15 AM

Which I don't even think was called a powerbook, but a prismo.

I installed Vista on my mac, and it's horrible. and I guess because of the drivers, there's no Aero interface. I mean, it's just hideous too.

Someone was laughing at a comment about Vista being the end of MS, but the honest truth is that it just might be the beginning of the end. Dell and HP are looking at Linux, suddenly macs just became "real" computers, and Microsoft's newest OS isn't anything that people like. Sure under the hood it's good, but that's not what anyone sees. Consumers see ugly, and IT peeps see annoyances.
</RANT>

I have both - Macs and PCs - and have developed for both environments - enterprise java in eclipse and with .net and c#. I'll say this - Today, it's much easier to be productive on the ms platform than others. For this reason alone, my gut says it will remain a dominant platform.

Time will tell - competition is good. Innovations from either company help all of us.

louden

Mar 12, 2007, 03:20 AM

Exactly. At $200 for home upgrade upto $500 for Ultimate retail, very few people will justify that purchase, especially when they can buy a dell for $500-600 which comes with the OS anyway.

Oh wise one, how much do you think Apple is going to charge for Leopard? Tiger costs $200 for a family pack, which is what you're basically getting for the Vista upgrade.

Are you going to be shocked when Apple wants you to cough up $250 for Leopard?

Eraserhead

Mar 12, 2007, 03:52 AM

Oh wise one, how much do you think Apple is going to charge for Leopard? Tiger costs $200 for a family pack, which is what you're basically getting for the Vista upgrade.

Except the Tiger family pack has 5 licences, so for Vista Ultimate OEM (the only close comparison) for $214*5=$1070

On a single licence $129 vs $214, and I'm comparing to OEM versions of Windows to keep the cost down.

Leopard will only cost more if it comes with iLife, except that MS's 'iLife' features are equivalent to iLife 03 or something...

JDN

Mar 12, 2007, 04:17 AM

What are you going to do when Leopard comes out and it doesn't run well (if at all) on the old Mac Book Pro Core Duos? That's a very similar situation to what your friend has faced.

WHAT?!? Are you serious?? Leopard won't run on my MBP 2Ghz CD??!? If this is the case i am going to be seriously pissed off!!

longmover

Mar 12, 2007, 06:44 AM

What are you going to do when Leopard comes out and it doesn't run well (if at all) on the old Mac Book Pro Core Duos? That's a very similar situation to what your friend has faced.

Mate, stop freaking people out, that's just absurd. Are you seriously suggesting that anything below a C2D won't be able to run Leopard?

To JDN:

Chill out man, louden is just being a drama queen.

Cooknn

Mar 12, 2007, 08:35 AM

I think Vista really is the end of MS as an important company. MY 2 cents.Windows Vista is at least much more tolerable than previous versions. Many similarities to OSX which help and one that I wish it would bring back. By incorporating 'find while you type' into Windows Explorer my required time on Vista is much more pleasant than it was on XP. Explorer also incorporated the old OSX 'Shelf' which is very nice. I wish Finder would bring that back. At no time was it more evident to me that Vista used OSX as a blueprint though, than when I ventured into System Info. I laughed out loud :). Of course Vista also attempts to copy Expose' and the Dashboard, but the implementation of both is not as user friendly as OSX. All in all it's a much better OS than XP - but it still doesn't touch OSX, IMHO.

weckart

Mar 12, 2007, 09:42 AM

MS really pisses me off with their arrogance.
1) you can't do a fresh install on an upgrade license - changing the way the upgrade disc system has worked after allowing it for the last 5+ OS iterations!
2) you cant run the cheaper versions of vista in a VM - clearly gouging us mac users (and anyone else who gets in their way)
3) oem versions are 32bit or 64bit only, you get one and you are stuck with that version only. (And even retail gets you 32bit only, you have to pay to get the 64bit disc sent to you.)
Wanna move to 64bit later while you give it time for 64bit drivers? Tough, buy a new version of the same OS later thanks!
Want 64bit now? Please enjoy your driver hell.
4) How come they don't have family versions or multiple copy discounts? I know LOADS of people with a main desktop + laptop, not to mention the kid's and family computers. Whatever happened to software that you can install anywhere and just be allowed to have one active copy running??

As you can tell, I'm not pleased with MS's anti-competition/anti-consumer/anti-fair use policies.

1. Nonsense. As another poster has said, the only thing stopping you is your conscience. I bought an upgrade version (was eligible several times over) and performed a clean install as recommended by Microsoft. Microsoft is fully aware that this is possible and is not going to "fix" this. I thought everyone knew this by now and how to do it.
2. The fact that Vista does not exactly fly on a VM should be your main concern here. Moreover the EULA is null and void outside the US, and probably within it, too. If you paid the money for the software, who the hell is MS to tell you what you can run it on?
3. I bought a retail upgrade and got both disks, so no. Very few people will NEED 64 bit now, and those will sort out their drivers before diving in, anyway.
4. Volume licences?

slicedbread

Mar 12, 2007, 10:27 AM

1. Nonsense. As another poster has said, the only thing stopping you is your conscience. I bought an upgrade version (was eligible several times over) and performed a clean install as recommended by Microsoft. Microsoft is fully aware that this is possible and is not going to "fix" this. I thought everyone knew this by now and how to do it.
2. The fact that Vista does not exactly fly on a VM should be your main concern here. Moreover the EULA is null and void outside the US, and probably within it, too. If you paid the money for the software, who the hell is MS to tell you what you can run it on?
3. I bought a retail upgrade and got both disks, so no. Very few people will NEED 64 bit now, and those will sort out their drivers before diving in, anyway.
4. Volume licences?

1) as i said - if you wanna ignore conscience, legalities etc. there are many things you can do to bypass WGA, upgrading, clean installs etc. But by that token, you can do anything you wanted to really, legal or not.
With Tiger (or any OS X), you can just bang in the disc, reboot, and perform a clean install if you want. Not so with upgrade versions of vista.
NB. if you have an upgrade disc I'm fairly sure there is no where in the world where you'll find MS recommend you do a clean install. They explicitly say they expect people to upgrade with an upgrade disc.

2) VM wise, I'm sure parallels and VMware will eventually get their products to a stage where Vista is smooth enough to run in a VM (like XP is now). And buying software from MS isn't strictly true, you license it, and officially you're meant to go by the rules they set. Technically you're meant to follow the EULA - if you wanna do what the hell you want with no regard to that then whats the point of getting legitimate software?

3) Yes, but then all those OEM vista 32bit buyers are left in the lurch aren't they? My point was that OEM discs are specific to the version you bought, you can't upgrade to 64bit later without just rebuying Vista 64bit (whether OEM or retail).

4) I'm no expert, but from a consumer standpoint there is no easy way to get volume licensing for a couple of PCs I have at home. All MS's open licensing schemes seem geared for companies from small business to enterprise. Unlike the Tiger family pack I can get from the applestore, install on 5 macs I have at home and be done with it.

EDIT: http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/options.mspx
Customer: Home users or small businesses requiring software for fewer than five computers
Description: Individual packages of licensed software purchased at retail
How to purchase: Licensed software can be purchased through any software retailer.
Clearly MS expects home users to shell out five times at retail - hence my original point on how Apple does family packs better.

psycoswimmer

Mar 12, 2007, 02:43 PM

I (still) have the last and latest rev of a 12" PB - probably 3 years old, and sure it runs Tiger and is fair for browsing, but did you try to run an universal app on it? It's dog slow. I'm sure it's comparable to a 2.0 Vista performance on some other PC (which I have at work). All hardware - apple or ms becomes obsolete. Apple hardware is sexier and more expensive to start with, and therefore you'll have to assume it's going to depreciate more over time. Hell, look at the notes on the MB and MBP web site touting the 7X speed differences. Is Apple lying?

When we get a copy of Leopard that runs faster on the same hardware as today, I'll eat my words, but I'll bet you need more horsepower to run it.

Aren't Universal Apps native on both PPC and Intel processors? Shouldn't there be no difference?

And I expect Leopard to run faster on my iMac than Tiger does. I might need to upgrade the RAM though.

Phobophobia

Mar 12, 2007, 03:32 PM

Aren't Universal Apps native on both PPC and Intel processors? Shouldn't there be no difference?
This is correct. Louden is just here to spread false information.

crees!

Mar 12, 2007, 03:49 PM

When we get a copy of Leopard that runs faster on the same hardware as today, I'll eat my words, but I'll bet you need more horsepower to run it.

I fully expect Leopard to run as good, if not better, than Tiger on my 2003 PowerBook.

gkarris

Mar 12, 2007, 04:07 PM

I REALLY don't know what people are talking about.

I have my own Compaq laptop with a Cel 1.4, 768 Megs RAM, and Intel 915 with Win XP and it beats the crap out of my work Dell 1.9 Pentium M with 1.0 Gigs RAM and the same Intel 915 and Win XP and the same software...

I can only use the drivers from Dell for it, I can't use the generic Intel drivers...

zero2dash

Mar 12, 2007, 04:14 PM

I think Vista really is the end of MS as an important company. MY 2 cents.

I agree with you on everything else (Vista sucks, people will switch [myself included]) but I think Microsoft has a lot of bridge burning to do before they go away into the night.

Granted, they burned some bridges with ME, but they quickly saved face with 2k Pro, and then again with XP. Vista either needs a) a service pack ASAP or b) to be swept under the rug ala ME with a new release. Option (b) is highly doubtful, so I wouldn't be surprised to see Vista SP1 released in record time for a Microsoft Service Pack.

Besides that, sure, there's a [majority] of public outcry in terms of Vista issues, but the brunt of Microsoft customers, and the high dollar/high volume ones are all corporations, and corporations usually stay 1 version behind, so any company (say, FedEx Kinkos where I used to work) just upgraded to Win2k (roughly) 4 years ago, I'm sure they'll rollout XP discs before they do Vista ones and by the time they do, Vista will have been through at least a few service packs and (by and large) by that time should be as solid as 2k and XP before it.

But yes, absolutely. I think right now - Vista is garbage. I like it, and I like the ideas they've implemented...although some of the things they've moved around piss me off. Why'd they have to over-complicate network properties and setting up wireless connections? Sheesh. And my Vista gripes come with driver issues, but in all fairness - I expect it with Vista. In the past, Microsoft got away with things because 98 and ME could use 95 drivers from day one, and 2k could use NT4 drivers (and XP could use 2k drivers), so driver issues weren't really an issue before. Now, they've tinkered around with all of the system files and whatnot, and I've had serious driver issues with Vista, which is why I dumped my RC and went back to XP.

weg

Mar 12, 2007, 04:46 PM

Not for the extra 100 - you have to factor in the vista price, which would be ~300-ish. So the cost of running two OSs is ~$400 or an extra 25-30% of the price of the machine.

For a 500MHz Celeron you wouldn't buy the Enterprise version of Vista (or do you run Mac OS X Server on your iBook? Thats about 499$ that you'll have to pay on top of the iBook, then), Home Basic is more than enough. Windows Vista Home Basic (OEM) sells for 85 bucks.

And I think the OP's friend probably just hates Vista because the OP told him that it's cool to hate Vista...

louden

Mar 13, 2007, 12:53 AM

This is correct. Louden is just here to spread false information.

I wasn't trolling - I was just noting on my 12" PB - universal apps are extremely slow! I installed the photobooth app and tried it with an iSight camera, and it worked at a snail's pace.

The point I was trying to make is that Apple notes the latest rev laptops are 7x the speed of the latest G4. I'm saying I agree - and that the old hardware is SLOW.

That's all - old hardware is slow on whomever's software you run it on.

louden

Mar 13, 2007, 12:58 AM

Mate, stop freaking people out, that's just absurd. Are you seriously suggesting that anything below a C2D won't be able to run Leopard?

To JDN:

Chill out man, louden is just being a drama queen.

Ouch - sorry, I'm not trying to be a drama queen - but I was making an emphatic point.

And I'm not sure - is Leopard only 64 bit? If so, will they have a 32 bit flavor as well? - I have a Toshiba Core Duo at work - and it's only 32 bit -that's what makes me wonder what the roadmap for Leopard will look like. I honestly don't know.

Vista comes in two flavors where 64 bit machines can run either 32 or 64, and 32 bit machines can only run 32 bit.

louden

Mar 13, 2007, 01:05 AM

Except the Tiger family pack has 5 licences, so for Vista Ultimate OEM (the only close comparison) for $214*5=$1070

On a single licence $129 vs $214, and I'm comparing to OEM versions of Windows to keep the cost down.

Leopard will only cost more if it comes with iLife, except than MS's 'iLife' features are equivalent to iLife 03 or something...

Actually - MS is less restrictive with Vista - you can install it on up to five machines. I'm not sure if that's part of the license, but that's how it works... That's why I compared it to the family pack.

Eric5h5

Mar 13, 2007, 02:41 AM

Ouch - sorry, I'm not trying to be a drama queen - but I was making an emphatic point.

OK, but you were making an "emphatic point" based on total ignorance (which at least you admit). People need to stop doing this. If you don't know, don't say anything. Or ask questions, instead of making statements. I've had any number of posts when I realize "waitaminute, I don't actually know that for sure...", so either I research until I do know, or else I just ditch the post.

Anyway, as has been stated a bunch of times on a bunch of topics, Leopard is 64/32 bit.

--Eric

Eraserhead

Mar 13, 2007, 07:21 AM

Actually - MS is less restrictive with Vista - you can install it on up to five machines. I'm not sure if that's part of the license, but that's how it works... That's why I compared it to the family pack.

That is complete rubbish. After another quick google for "Vista Licence" I found this on Microsoft's website (http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx):
2. INSTALLATION AND USE RIGHTS. Before you use the software under a license, you must
assign that license to one device (physical hardware system). That device is the “licensed device.”
A hardware partition or blade is considered to be a separate device.
a. Licensed Device. You may install one copy of the software on the licensed device. You may
use the software on up to two processors on that device at one time. Except as provided in the
Storage and Network Use (Ultimate edition) sections below, you may not use the software on any
other device.
b. Number of Users. Except as provided in the Device Connections (all editions), Remote Access
Technologies (Home Basic and Home Premium editions) and Other Access Technologies
(Ultimate edition) sections below, only one user may use the software at a time.
c. Alternative Versions. The software may include more than one version, such as 32-bit and
64-bit. You may use only one version at one time. (bolding added for emphasis)

I fail to see 5 anywhere (but one does seem to be mentioned a lot) in the licence so you can't compare it to the OS X Family Pack :rolleyes:.

EDIT: If it isn't in the licence you aren't allowed to do it, especially as it says specifically it works on one computer.

Ouch - sorry, I'm not trying to be a drama queen - but I was making an emphatic point.

And I'm not sure - is Leopard only 64 bit? If so, will they have a 32 bit flavor as well? - I have a Toshiba Core Duo at work - and it's only 32 bit -that's what makes me wonder what the roadmap for Leopard will look like. I honestly don't know.

Vista comes in two flavors where 64 bit machines can run either 32 or 64, and 32 bit machines can only run 32 bit.

No, Apple understands ease of use so it'll run on 32 AND 64 bit computers as Steve Jobs said in the WWDC Keynote, a quick google for "Leopard System Requirements" confirms (http://theplaceforitall.com/105requirements.html) it. Hell even Apple's site (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/64bit.html) says it will be 32 bit too :rolleyes:.

contoursvt

Mar 14, 2007, 02:23 AM

macfan881

Mar 14, 2007, 06:01 PM

i agree Vista is horrible its bascly nothing new or that apple hasnt done allready and it just feels rushed i think its a repeat of ME all over again and the sad thing is i dont think Microsoft Doesnt see it so i think were gonna deal with this os for a while and i think you will start seeing more switch to mac/linux esp now since linux is slowley but steadly coming out with more Wifi capabilties and with leapord also will see more people switch to :apple:

clevin

Mar 14, 2007, 08:02 PM

my brief experience with vista in compusa give me more detail than OP's first hand, which I fail to see any detail about the OS.

I only spent 2 minutes on Vista at compusa, so no comment on any functionality aspect, just one word for the UI.

Its beautiful.

TBi

Mar 14, 2007, 08:17 PM

Its beautiful.

I quite like the new interface too. It's very smooth and polished.

I was almost thinking that the UAC was ok though. Until it started asking me, twice every time, if i wanted to delete the file i was deleting, every time...

panzer06

Mar 14, 2007, 08:24 PM

I installed Vista on my mac, and it's horrible. and I guess because of the drivers, there's no Aero interface. I mean, it's just hideous too.

</RANT>

I have a Macbook Core Duo 2.0 GHz and Vista works reasonably well, transparent menus and gadget thingee, office 2007 runs well, including the Visio hog! The only downside is my fan runs near constantly while Vista is running. I never have this problem if I'm using XP via Parallels.

Granted I really only use Vista on my Mac to access Visio, Project and Access because there are no Mac versions.

Even with my crippled on-board GMA950 the experience is passable.

Note: I do assign Vista 1GB of RAM vs. the 512MB I assigned to Win XP. (I have 2GB on the MB)

I much prefer OS X and tend to use a concurrent XP install rather than Vista when I must use a Windows program.

I have a dedicated PC for games but only until I can afford a new Mac Pro with a high end video card.

Cheers

bigandy

Mar 14, 2007, 09:07 PM

Someone on another thread was running Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) on their 6 year old Powerbook.
I have Tiger running on a 450mhz iMac G3, and it's fine. My girlfriend has a 700mhz G3 iBook, and it runs Tiger without fault. While some features aren't very usable (Dashboard *ahem*), they're both very usable.

Which I don't even think was called a powerbook, but a prismo.

It was a PowerBook, it's codename was Pismo (http://www.apple-history.com/?page=gallery&model=pg3sfirewire&performa=off&sort=date&order=ASC). ;)

deputy_doofy

Mar 20, 2007, 05:43 PM

Well, my friend did actually buy his first Mac this past weekend. As I suspected, he immediately put Windows XP on it for work, but it was Vista that drove him to the "light" side. It may take him a while to fully appreciate OS X, since he will still be using Windows a lot, but I think he'll like it. I also think he's the kind of person who will appreciate BOTH OS's, and use them for their strengths.

clevin

Mar 20, 2007, 05:50 PM

I quite like the new interface too. It's very smooth and polished.

I was almost thinking that the UAC was ok though. Until it started asking me, twice every time, if i wanted to delete the file i was deleting, every time...

oh yeah, during my 2 minutes contact with it, I was just trying to check the graphic card info (mainly want to see if Aero Glass works with GMA950, and it actually works, with VRAM of around 70~80), UAC popped up 3 times, Lol.

I would turn it off right away if i were to use it. I have my way of protecting OS, M$ can save that. :D

mzeb

Mar 20, 2007, 07:13 PM

A couple of things before I begin

1st admission: Long time die hard Mac user from day 1 (Mac Plus 1985)
2nd admission: MS Employee who worked on Vista
3rd admissioin: MacBook Core Duo 2GHz/2Gig/100Gig 7200RPM

There, that constitutes my bias.
First, please, before anyone else comments that "Vista sucks" try using it for 6 months. I took me about that long to really become useful with it. I don't know how many people here remember the OS9-OS X switch by my experience with that was initially "Wow, it's pretty" and then something along the lines of "Now why the heck did they put that there, that's dumb" and finally I became fluid with using OS X. The same thing happens with Vista. It's a transition from XP or any other OS (even some within MS haven't quite made it, we pick on them for it too ;) ).
Second, yes, aero glass rocks. Those guys did a darn good job. Vista doesn't look like a fisher price toy unlike some other OS's (*cough* *cough* XP). There are some other nice things about Vista too, though. Just like the control panels of OS 9 being melded into "System Preferences.app" the new control panel layout is frighteningly useful for setting your machine's options. Also, the new defrag that runs behind the scenes ( like OS X's ) is a serious improvement over previous versions of windows. Shadowcopy is amazing, it's time machine style version control before time machine is even here. Vista is an OS that can take care of itself. Oh, and I'm hooked on the very shiny new solitaire style game: Mahjongg Titans (yes I know this is lame but I like it :), I still play Civ IV too)
Lastly, drivers. They're out there. My Macbook isn't missing a single driver. Even the IR remote works with Media Center. Collecting them all for 64 bit is a little more work, I know, but still, I think about 95% exist (although I found that the IR driver doesn't work so well ;) ). It does take work to get everything in order! Apple has said in every way shape and form that it doesn't yet support Vista, the fact that it works is more of an added bonus. Take that for what it is. If Apple says they don't support it then don't judge Vista until they say they do. That said, I won't purchase any other hardware to run Vista, complete driver set or no. Personally it's still my favorite hardware.
In closing, before you judge it, use it. Vista's slick in comparison to xp and on par with Tiger. Apple, whether you want to admit it or no, has competition for OS X now. Personally, I'm hoping that's healthy for both us and for Apple and sparks some good innovation. I already see it here, let's see what apple does with Leopard :-)... And right now, I'm very torn between both OS's...
Thanks all. I'm glad I get to post this stuff here. It's good to hear the other side of things (the other side than what are marketing department puts out ;) ).