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MacRumors
Jun 8, 2003, 11:08 PM
LoopRumors claims (http://www.looprumors.com) that reliable sources indicate that Apple is looking to purchase Roxio.

Roxio currently produces Toast for the Mac as well as CD-R software for the PC. In addition, Roxio has recently acquired Napster as well as Pressplay.



applemacdude
Jun 8, 2003, 11:10 PM
Apple owning Napster. LOL. MAybe they'll buy to enchance their cd burning compabalities..Even though its ok:p NOT GONNA HAPPEN or is it?

mac15
Jun 8, 2003, 11:20 PM
hmm, well I think this is crap. looprumors is full of **** all the time

MetallicPenguin
Jun 8, 2003, 11:23 PM
I doubt this will happen. But who knows?

From Win to Mac
Jun 8, 2003, 11:35 PM
what's the point ??
Napster is supposed to launch next year, half a year after the project iTMS release for Windows.

stefman
Jun 8, 2003, 11:36 PM
If it was true, wouldn't this be a good thing (tm)?

Apple would control a great piece of CD burning software and control a new "competitor" for the Music Store.

Sayer
Jun 8, 2003, 11:38 PM
If this was MS everyone would be whining about how Apple *should* buy them instead. I don't get it.

What is wrong with you people?

Apple buying Roxio would wipe out a soon-to-be competitor to their music store.

Who cares about PeeCee CD burning software. Of course Apple could augment their slim offerings on OS X with Roxio's tech and maybe integrate it into iTunes for Windoze (what a shock, synergy emerges!).

Gee whiz you people are frickin' nuts when it comes to what Apple should do and what Apple should not do.

Sol
Jun 8, 2003, 11:43 PM
I think an Apple owned Roxio would be a good thing. So far most of Roxio's products have not been ported to the Mac and the Napster intellectual property would be a useful bonus for Apple.

pyrotoaster
Jun 9, 2003, 12:03 AM
I don't trust LoopRumors, but consider how funny it would be if Apple actually did this.

Imagine, why even bother with iTMS competition, just buy the parent company and let Napster and Pressplay vanish completely! :p

dguisinger
Jun 9, 2003, 12:26 AM
Everyone is posting their doubts, so I guess it probably wont happen. But want to know whats funny? Every windows user would have an apple tax.

Windows XP's built in CD burning is actually written by Roxio.

AndrewMT
Jun 9, 2003, 12:48 AM
How much would Apple have to pay to buy Roxio?

Nermal
Jun 9, 2003, 01:13 AM
I'd love to see this happen. Get rid of Napster, and maybe Pressplay. But as dguisinger said, XP's CD recording is made by Roxio, so maybe MS would have to pay Apple for every copy of XP sold? :D

jettredmont
Jun 9, 2003, 01:24 AM
I was a long-time user of Adaptec's Easy CD Creator, from the 3.0 version that came bundled with my HP drive through 4 and 5. Roxio "spun off" from Adaptec, and the quality of the product plummetted. Easy CD Creator 5 was the root cause of massive instability on my Windows box for quite a while, and was nearly impossible to uninstall (I ended up reinstalling Windows). And I'm by far not the only one who's had instability from Roxio's recent offerings.

IMHO, Roxio has massive QC problems. I was astonished to see Microsoft outsource their CD writing to Roxio (and not all that surprised when XP's CD-writing software turned out to be buggy as hell on my equipment while the "unintegrated" Nero works swiftly, safely, and error-free). But, they make good business deals, and by hook or crook practically owned the PC CD-writing market for a few years (now Nero is gaining dominance and a few others get airplay).

I've never used Toast on my Mac, so I can't say what kind of quality Roxio puts into its Mac products. However, if Apple were to buy Roxio and didn't immediately clean house on the Windows division, we'd see users blaming Apple for their PC crashing. Buggy software, no matter what its market share, is no calling card for switchers.

Add to that the Netscape brand and PressPlay contracts/back-end: Apple needs neither, as it has better name recognition, better contracts, and a more battle-tested and tuned back end. This can only be seen as a defensive play, keeping MS or the like from easy entry into competing with iTMS.

So, mixed feelings here. I don't see the advantage to Apple buying Roxio. But then, maybe that's why I don't have an MBA :)

maradong
Jun 9, 2003, 02:30 AM
perhaps were gonna see an even better toast version. ;-) not to talk of Winoncd :D

chewbaccapits
Jun 9, 2003, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by dguisinger
...Every windows user would have an apple tax.


LOL...Thats the best IDEA I've heard all year!!...nice!

Nermal
Jun 9, 2003, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by jettredmont
I've never used Toast on my Mac, so I can't say what kind of quality Roxio puts into its Mac products. However, if Apple were to buy Roxio and didn't immediately clean house on the Windows division, we'd see users blaming Apple for their PC crashing. Buggy software, no matter what its market share, is no calling card for switchers.

Is there anything stopping Apple from keeping the Roxio brand name? They could fix Easy CD, then announce that they're actually Apple.

I've got Toast, I haven't used it much but it seems to be much more reliable than Easy CD was.

macnews
Jun 9, 2003, 02:55 AM
I use toast a lot and it is a great product. I can not say the same thing for their windows Easy CD - that has given me more fits! Toast is nice in that it burns CD's faster (not much but a little) and allows me to burn DVD RW's!

bigjohn
Jun 9, 2003, 03:08 AM
First, regardless of whether rumors are true or not is beside the point - it gives us something to speculate on pro and con until it's either proven untrue or just doesn't happen (or in the rare instance, it does happen). IF Apple let Toast retain it's functionality as my daily uber-burn .app, then I'm cool with the acquisition. IF Apple decided to somehow disable the ability to burn either VCDs or Multitrack CD-ROM XAs (you who know, know what I'm referring to), then I'd be pissed.

I'd be pissed since everytime I do an upgrade of an iApp, it seems to not add the new version but supplant the old with the new. That's fine for the most part, but today I was thinking about putting iTunes v1 onto my oldest Mac and was in a dilemma on where to find it. I'd hate for Apple to replace Toast with a non-VCD friendly version and somehow I'd lose the ability to burn, um, stuff altogether.

OR, Apple has that cash in reserve and it's burning a hole in Steve's pocket.

One or the other I think...

bennetsaysargh
Jun 9, 2003, 06:19 AM
this would be awesom! then, there would be no competitor for the music store, and they could put toast in a bundle that thery can sell to switchers. switcher bundle-a bunch of software to help ease the switch to mac.

bikertwin
Jun 9, 2003, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by chewbaccapits
LOL...Thats the best IDEA I've heard all year!!...nice!

Microsoft never pays royalties.

I hated Roxio when I upgraded to EZCD 5, as another poster mentioned. Being a switcher, I used Toast with much trepidation but then found out it's a much better product. Maybe they just need better QA on the Windows side. Of course not much has happened with Toast since I switched over a year ago.

If Apple could leverage the Napster brand on the PC side of things I think that would be a good idea. But napster.com should just point to iTMS.

Apple buying Roxio doesn't seem too likely, but would be a Good Thing if it happened.

dricci
Jun 9, 2003, 07:13 AM
Makes sense... they could use Roxio's technology to integrate CD Burning into the iTunes for Windows app, that way they wouldn't have to write their own CD burning code.

JPGR_Fan
Jun 9, 2003, 07:24 AM
There is a pretty good analysis of this at The Register (www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31096.html).

ebow
Jun 9, 2003, 07:37 AM
My initial reaction is to worry they'd take something like Toast Titanium and dumb it down, losing some important things like format options and multi-session ability. It happened with Sound Jam (though it's been so long that I forget what was taken away to make iTunes). However, the analysis by The Register is interesting... Hmm.

AppleMatt
Jun 9, 2003, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by dguisinger
Windows XP's built in CD burning is actually written by Roxio.

I was going to say that!

Anyway hopefully this means Apple will add multi-session burning straight into the finder.

Also buying Napster/pressplay, I think, could be very valuable, partly due to knowledge and partly due to eliminating competition (something Microsoft and Apple like doing) and keeping record companies happy.

AppleMatt

MorganX
Jun 9, 2003, 09:33 AM
>>There is a pretty good analysis of this at The Register.<<

Did iTunes really start off as Casady & Greene's MP3 Jukebox?

blogo
Jun 9, 2003, 09:55 AM
After trying out both applications i would say that toast titanium has mucg more features that easy cd creator. So I don't think roxio has any bad mac support in that area. Too bad they haven't ported the vcd-builder to mac.

jholzner
Jun 9, 2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by MorganX
>>There is a pretty good analysis of this at The Register.<<

Did iTunes really start off as Casady & Greene's MP3 Jukebox?

Yup, it sure did.

MacManiac1224
Jun 9, 2003, 11:14 AM
Personally I think it is a good idea, they buy it, and keep the name Roxio, and use it as a subsidiary. This gets thier feet wet in the Windows world, plus, Micro**** has to pay them for every Win**** sold. I think it is a god idea. If they buy it, I expect them paying anywhere from 150-200 million, where did I get that number? the Market cap is currently 124 million. We will see, a nice purchase.

clith
Jun 9, 2003, 11:35 AM
Roxio showed PhotoSuite 5 for MacOS at MacWorld New York in July of last year. Unlike iPhoto, it runs under Mac OS 9.

Disclaimer: I hlped write PhotoSuite for Mac OS.

Winston Smith
Jun 9, 2003, 12:46 PM
Sounds much more tasty than Roxio tost me thinks:D

jccbin
Jun 9, 2003, 12:46 PM
Roxio is worth $120-130 Million, based on its market capitalization. Apple could easily acquire it with their $4.5 billion in the bank.

As an AAPL stockholder, I'd say: Do it.

BobX
Jun 9, 2003, 01:43 PM
I have long thought that Roxio's Toast Titanium has better, more comprehensive CD-burning capabilities than Apple's offerings. (I don't have experience with the DVD-burning side of things though.)

I don't think much about the PressPlay business and have no idea how to value the Napster brand. But just for those CD-burning technology alone, I would say that Roxio is a good buy for Apple.

(For those who speculate on Roxio's market cap and hence Apple's possible offering price - keep in mind that Roxio carries significant long-term debt load that has to be taken into consideration as well.)

GeeYouEye
Jun 9, 2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by ebow
My initial reaction is to worry they'd take something like Toast Titanium and dumb it down, losing some important things like format options and multi-session ability. It happened with Sound Jam (though it's been so long that I forget what was taken away to make iTunes). However, the analysis by The Register is interesting... Hmm.

On the other hand, look what was done to Final Cut Pro (it was Macromedia's before Apple bought it), Shake, and Logic. All Apple did was rebrand and make better.

Oh, and IIRC, all Apple did to Sound Jam was to get rid of some of the MP3 encoders.

bennetsaysargh
Jun 9, 2003, 03:22 PM
they would be able to include a bunch of features, like cd-session burning, into the finder. they would be able to do a lot with it.

Cecret
Jun 9, 2003, 04:02 PM
Apple has over $4 billion in cash (or liquid equivalent) on their balance sheet. In this market it doesn't make sense to keep all that money on hand. Give it to the share holders or spend it. Debt is cheep and they would get a tax break instead of paying more in income.

alset
Jun 9, 2003, 04:28 PM
It will never happen. I wish it would. It would be an M$ styled move, and we know those make money.

Dan

JonGraves
Jun 9, 2003, 06:01 PM
Remember that Toast allows unlimited burning of tunes downloaded from the iTMS. The purchase of Roxio would allow Apple to patch this hole in their rights management scheme. If Apple buys Roxio, beware the next Toast update!

Jon

bennetsaysargh
Jun 9, 2003, 06:06 PM
i didn't know that toast could burn AAC encode files.:rolleyes: they'll probably fix that. maybe they'll forget! and re-release the cube instead! no... sorry about that.

PyroTurtle
Jun 9, 2003, 06:12 PM
toast is one of the best CD-Burning apps i've used, and it's great for CD-Images too! i would be afraid of not being able to burn songs as many times as i'd like, as that's what i've been doing, but then again, i can strait burn a CD, so, burn it once then as many times as i want after that...
more importantly is VCD and DVD support...at least to me those are, and SVCD...
i think the buyout could be cool if it was done quietly and apple intregrated the stuff and didn't outright take it over...well, takever yes, but nor dis-asemble the whole thing...
mixed feeling, good overall i think

btw, it was SoundJam MP that was bought from C&G

JonGraves
Jun 9, 2003, 06:31 PM
Sorry if I misled - you have to transcode the .m4p files to .mp3 (with significant loss of quality). However, because Toast does not depend on QuickTime, you can circumvent FairPlay and burn as many copies as you want.

PS. Check out the new iPod cases at www.sfbags.com. I just got one for my Gen3 iPod and love it.

Jon

jettredmont
Jun 9, 2003, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by JonGraves
Sorry if I misled - you have to transcode the .m4p files to .mp3 (with significant loss of quality). However, because Toast does not depend on QuickTime, you can circumvent FairPlay and burn as many copies as you want.


But, um, if you're willing to transcode you can just pop those mp3's in iTunes and burn CDs to your heart's content as well, right? Doesn't the 10-burn limit only apply to m4p's?

JonGraves
Jun 9, 2003, 07:00 PM
You can't transcode protected files from .m4p to .mp3 in iTunes as far as I understand. Check out this news item from ipoding.com:

http://www.ipoding.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1142

Jon

bennetsaysargh
Jun 9, 2003, 07:04 PM
i was kinda wondering why Apple would put the ability to do almost anything with bought music from teh iTMS. it would just defeat the whole purpose.

Vector
Jun 9, 2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by AndrewMT
How much would Apple have to pay to buy Roxio?

Roxio'a market capitalization is only 127 million and it has about 40 million in cash and cash equivalents. Assuming that Roxio was thinking of selling, Apple could buy it for a small amount of actual money relative to their cash reserves. I do not remember the figures from apple's other buyouts, but buying Roxio would be similar although slightly costlier. It would also be more diffiicult as roxio is a public company and if i remember correctly apple's other recent buyouts were not.

catalystx
Jun 9, 2003, 08:05 PM
If Apple were to do this, these are basically the things I'd predict them doing:

1. Kill off Napster/Pressplay and integrate any useful assets into iTMS.

2. Kill off or simplify Roxio's Windows offerings, and integrate any useful features into their own apps. This would obviously include the Windows version of iTMS.

3. Continue selling and supporting Toast until they're ready to rebrand it as an Apple pro burning app.

I definitely think the good outweighs the bad in this situation. The worst thing I see happening is them removing some features from Toast, but there are a lot of other apps that provide things like VCD and multisession burning.

Apple needs to become truly aggressive in expanding their market, and I think the signs point to that being the case.

Vector
Jun 9, 2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Cecret
Apple has over $4 billion in cash (or liquid equivalent) on their balance sheet. In this market it doesn't make sense to keep all that money on hand. Give it to the share holders or spend it. Debt is cheep and they would get a tax break instead of paying more in income.

Apple may have 4.53 bil in cash and cash equivalents, but while this may seem excessive dispensing it would likely prove harmful. The market already has a knee-jerk reaction to all news apple - does anyone remember when the stock dropped from 50 to 25 in one day - and while some stockholders might want dividends this would ultimately harm apple. One of the few things that analysts like about apple is that it has a cushion, a cushion large enough to sustain quarterly losses. This is the primary reason that apple, while its stock price has greatly devalued, it has not dipped below the 12 point level (at least for a sustained period). Apple has $12.38 per share in higly liquid assets (cash), meaning that it could feasibly pay every shareholder that amount per share if needed, and thus its market price should not fall below that level.

Anyway, if they were to give dividends - which I as a shareholder do not want - or to go on a buying spree this cash level would decrease and since the market thinks that the current price is already overvalued due to the ITMS reaction, analysts would really think the shares were overvalued. Apple would no longer have that price floor, and its stock value would likely decrease. The very suggestion that apple could go into debt is insane. Are there not already enough pundits forcasting apple's death every week - speaking of has anyone seen the barron's article on the ITMS - an apple with compiling debts would be assailed bby news of its final death, causing stock prices to tank, or at the very least to fall to a new low. There is no way that apple could go into debt and maintain its current stock price or even half of it. If a slight shortfall in earnings estimates could cause it to go from 50 to 25 in a single day, i ask you too imagine what would happen if apple were to have no cash, no liquid assets, if it were to be in debt.

ClimbingTheLog
Jun 9, 2003, 10:10 PM
Apple needs CD Burning for iTunes for Windows. They don't have time to write it. They need to get iTunes for Windows done before Microsoft ships their music store.

jholzner
Jun 9, 2003, 11:27 PM
I think they could also use the toast drivers to support tons more CD-RW drives than iTunes and disc burner currently do. I for one hope this is true. They will get some great tech. and eliminate a competitor for online music sales all at once.

mgescuro
Jun 10, 2003, 03:09 PM
It really wouldn't be that bad of an acquisition; however, APple would have to maintain their PC product line. Ususally, when Apple acquires a company, they terminate support for WIndows versions almost immediately.

ANyways... with Roxio owning Napster, APple would gain control of a product that existed already on the PC. It's jsut a matter of adding certain iTunes features to teh Napster interface... and bam... you've got iTunes for WIndows.

Problem there is that APple would have to kill the Napster brand all together because the brand obviously competes with iTunesMS.

pretentious
Jun 11, 2003, 07:33 AM
CBS MarketWatch (http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B48937CAB-6A0C-4E74-A0F6-83698FAB4E7A%7D&siteid=google&dist=google) has added in on this, maybe this rumor has more meat on it than just LoopRumors.

jholzner
Jun 11, 2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by pretentious
CBS MarketWatch (http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B48937CAB-6A0C-4E74-A0F6-83698FAB4E7A%7D&siteid=google&dist=google) has added in on this, maybe this rumor has more meat on it than just LoopRumors.

It's a pretty small mention so I thought I'd just paste it here:

Apple buying Roxio:

Apple Computer (AAPL: news, chart, profile) is making its foray into digital music, and the computer maker has more cash on hand than all but a few technology companies. A deal to buy recording software-maker Roxio (ROXI: news, chart, profile) might give the company a jump-start in the fledgling market.

Even though Apple and Roxio both make CD and DVD-burning software, Roxio offers it for the Windows platform, where Apple wants to expand by year's end, says Susan Kevorkian, an analyst with Mountain View, Calif.-based International Data Corp.

Roxio has also made moves to develop its Napster brand recently, and acquired PressPlay, a fee-based online music service. If Apple were to acquire those assets, it would eliminate a competitor, and offer a better Windows-based service -- probably more quickly than it could otherwise.

Unprofitable Roxio has about $2 a share in cash and is trading at a multiple of one times its expected 2004 sales -- which is considered far less than the average software maker. Even if Apple had to pay $220 million for the company, or about a 50-percent premium, it could easily pay for the acquisition in cash.

Cappy
Jun 11, 2003, 11:44 AM
Two thoughts:

1. For what its worth the Music industry would probably like to see the Napster brand name put to rest and Apple could come out looking like the hero. Some think that the Napster brand name would be valuable but I see the opposite. In the eyes of the consumer I don't think that they're going to follow along with it as being used for what will now be a commercial service rather than the illegal activities it was used for in the past.

2. Why isn't MS pursuing them? They already license some code from them for the cd burning capabilities in XP and could gain a few similar advantages as Apple in eliminating a competitor.

bennetsaysargh
Jun 11, 2003, 03:04 PM
now witgh that BDS Marketwatch article, I find it to seem more realistic. CBS is a newws station/media whatever you wanna call it, and i doubt they would publish this without checking thier sources.
yay:D

jettredmont
Jun 11, 2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
now witgh that BDS Marketwatch article, I find it to seem more realistic. CBS is a newws station/media whatever you wanna call it, and i doubt they would publish this without checking thier sources.
yay:D

Um, yeah, but read that article carefully! The author says he asked analysts about what kinds of deals would make sense and specifically says that he has no reason to believe these are likely to be the "next" big buyouts. Just that these are places where there is an "obvious" synergy between two companies (though I only half-way agree with his sources there).

bennetsaysargh
Jun 11, 2003, 03:45 PM
sorry about that. i guess i wasn't reading it carefully.

seamuskrat
Jun 12, 2003, 08:52 PM
Apple IS making iTunes for windows.
iTunes is basically a simple MP3 player/AAC player that utilizes Quicktime as a core technology. iTMS is a web based system.
So, to make iTunes for Windows Apple has QT technology already optimized and working, they just need a front end inteface and the web portion and they are ready to go.
However one of he neat features of iTunes for Mac is the ability to burn CDs with ease. How could Apple release an iTunes for Windows and keep quality control and still support a million different PC burning units?
Possible answer 1:
Don't burn. Creat a disk image of wav files, AIFF files, MP3 files, etc. and let theuser deal with burning themselves. Not elegant, but if the disk does not burn, its not really Apple's fault.
Solution 2) Buy Roxio and its Easy CD Creator software and incorporate it into itunes for Windows. Makes a lot of sense.
PLUS, Roxio owns the remaining soul of Napster, which has got to have some value now that Apple is in the music biz.

Roxio's market value is well within the range Apple could swallow, and they have products that are very successful on the Mac and PC. And they could use the PC side technology. So it just could be a good decision.