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MacRumors
Mar 22, 2007, 05:05 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Ars Technica posts (http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/03/22/leopard-not-ready-for-april--barely-beta-not-final-or-gold-master) a somewhat speculative article on why they feel that Leopard will not be ready by April. This is based on developer sources indicating that Mac OS X betas tend to ramp up over 6 weeks prior to launch, and that current builds are not currently stable enough.

Based on their best guesses, they point to "June" as a possible timeframe.

At MacRumors, we're not big fans of speculation (http://normalkid.com/2007/03/16/the-difference-between-rumor-and-speculation/) but historically, it is true that developer seeds become more frequent as the final release approaches.

What's also clear is that Apple has stated that there are "secret" features that have yet been revealed, and it seems unlikely that these "secret" features will be casually revealed in a developer seeding. Typically, Apple would showcase new features at some form of media event.

At this point, we only have two upcoming Apple media events on our calendars: NAB on April 15th, and WWDC 2007 in June. The NAB event will likely be centered around Final Cut Pro and WWDC 2007 will certainly be Mac OS X focused.

Apple has stated a number of times that Leopard's target release is "Spring 2007" which would place the release between now and June.



Eidorian
Mar 22, 2007, 05:07 PM
*waits for Top Secret Features*

I like what we have with Spotlight, Safari, and OS X Server. I still haven't seen anything worth calling TOP SECRET though. There's still more the Leopard then what we have.

Naimfan
Mar 22, 2007, 05:07 PM
I hope they take their time and get it right!

Bob

ppc_michael
Mar 22, 2007, 05:15 PM
Honestly? I don't know how existent these secret features are. It kind of felt like Steve Jobs was aware that there wasn't much to show at the keynote so he was coming up with an excuse.

pavelbure
Mar 22, 2007, 05:17 PM
guess i have to wait until at least june for my 1st mac. hopefully the imac upgrade will be done by then also, or i may be waiting longer.

mattscott306
Mar 22, 2007, 05:17 PM
I'm thinking another event somewhere in between NAB and WWDC for the Leopard announcement. (More like hoping). They do promise a spring delivery on the site, so it has to be before WWDC.

czeluff
Mar 22, 2007, 05:18 PM
boy, i guess ever since i saw that picture of iCal inside of Time Machine as an ad for WWDC 07, i sorta figured it was coming out in June...

cz

Clive At Five
Mar 22, 2007, 05:18 PM
Apple said June. Why is this a surprise to people?

Not everything at Apple is a magic trick.

-Clive

twoodcc
Mar 22, 2007, 05:18 PM
i really think it will be ready before June.....or at least i sure hope so

AvSRoCkCO1067
Mar 22, 2007, 05:18 PM
Apple said June. Why is this a surprise to people?

Not everything at Apple is a magic trick.

-Clive

No, they didn't.

Apple has said "Spring 2007" since WWDC, and before that late 2006-early 2007. Here we are, it's Spring 2007.

Stike
Mar 22, 2007, 05:20 PM
I really believe that there ARE at least one or two great enhancements to Leo just like Expose, Spotlight or Dashboard in the previous versions.

Also, it seems to me that the Mac sales and everything else is doing exceptionally well EVEN WITHOUT the release of Leopard. People who hold out for a new model until the next OS seem to be a minority, and so Apple dont feel pushed about rushing the next OS.

Additionally, it has to run great on PPC and Intel. To me, Tiger on Intel is kinda buggy still, in a way that it was NOT on PPC. Lets get everything working before release this time.

inkswamp
Mar 22, 2007, 05:22 PM
Apple said June. Why is this a surprise to people?

When was June specified? I've never heard anything other than spring.

dr_lha
Mar 22, 2007, 05:26 PM
When was June specified? I've never heard anything other than spring.
Spring ends June 21st I believe, so June is really the latest they can ship Leopard and still meet the "Spring 2007" promise.

Personally I just hope its finished. I'd for once like a .0 version of Mac OS X to not be a buggy piece of crap.

JaegerMac
Mar 22, 2007, 05:27 PM
:D Im waiting to upgrade, when leopard drops. Lets say its will be an expensive year.

dr_lha
Mar 22, 2007, 05:28 PM
Additionally, it has to run great on PPC and Intel. To me, Tiger on Intel is kinda buggy still, in a way that it was NOT on PPC. Lets get everything working before release this time.
As a user of both PPC and Intel Macs, I'm curious as to what bugs you're referring to here. When I got my first Intel Mac about a year ago, it was clearly way more buggy that the same OS X version on PPC, but now I'd say that Tiger is rock solid on Intel.

miketcool
Mar 22, 2007, 05:28 PM
When was June specified? I've never heard anything other than spring.

Eh, I havent't heard June myself, but until June 21st rolls around, June is still a spring month.

DMann
Mar 22, 2007, 05:28 PM
I'm thinking another event somewhere in between NAB and WWDC for the Leopard announcement. (More like hoping). They do promise a spring delivery on the site, so it has to be before WWDC.

Technically, Spring extends through June 21st. (Northern Hemisphere) If WWDC is slated for June 11-15, then Leopard will be Springing right on time...... Better to be stable, complete, refined, and ready to stun the world than rushed to meet a dead-line.

digitalbiker
Mar 22, 2007, 05:32 PM
I really believe that there ARE at least one or two great enhancements to Leo just like Expose, Spotlight or Dashboard in the previous versions.

Also, it seems to me that the Mac sales and everything else is doing exceptionally well EVEN WITHOUT the release of Leopard. People who hold out for a new model until the next OS seem to be a minority, and so Apple dont feel pushed about rushing the next OS.

Additionally, it has to run great on PPC and Intel. To me, Tiger on Intel is kinda buggy still, in a way that it was NOT on PPC. Lets get everything working before release this time.

Actually sales of mac laptops are down according to MacCentral. They were reporting a 2% drop in sales.

I also believe that mac pro sales are not what they could be because many pros are on the fence waiting for the Octo / redesigned mac pro update w/ Leopard or free Leopard upgrade with coupon.

johnee
Mar 22, 2007, 05:33 PM
I'm thinking another event somewhere in between NAB and WWDC for the Leopard announcement. (More like hoping). They do promise a spring delivery on the site, so it has to be before WWDC.

Isn't something like that extremely rare?

Stike
Mar 22, 2007, 05:33 PM
As a user of both PPC and Intel Macs, I'm curious as to what bugs you're referring to here. When I got my first Intel Mac about a year ago, it was clearly way more buggy that the same OS X version on PPC, but now I'd say that Tiger is rock solid on Intel.

Sorry that I cant specify it in any more detail, but there were some notable hiccups since I received my MacBook C2D in November. Not that I counted or noted everything, its just an overall impression. Of course, 10.4.9 improved everything. But still, I consider Tiger as only half the deal... Leopard will be the OS to let the Intels really shine.

Edit@digitalbiker: 2 % are minimal, I wouldnt really blame that on the upcoming OS. And the Mac Pros... well, they are overdue in my opinion already, and the pro customers will wait until they are released. I dont think however, that those who spend over $3,000 on a computer that they use professionally, would wait to order until they would save an additional 150...

maler
Mar 22, 2007, 05:34 PM
Honestly, when i look on list of problems in Leopard, i'm affraid, that they will not make it even for WWDC.

mattscott306
Mar 22, 2007, 05:35 PM
Technically, Spring extends through June 21st. (Northern Hemisphere) If WWDC is slated for June 11-15, then Leopard will be Springing right on time...... Better to be stable, complete, refined, and ready to stun the world than rushed to meet a dead-line.

That was Microsoft's plan for Vista's plan... look how well that worked out for them.

I'm not saying apple will put out a version that blows, but we saw the sneak peak quite some time ago, it's high time we get to see the finished product. That being said, I'll buy it no matter when it comes out, so Apple really shouldn't feel rushed. :rolleyes:'

Honestly, when i look on list of problems in Leopard, i'm affraid, that they will not make it even for WWDC.

What problems?

Cult Follower
Mar 22, 2007, 05:36 PM
I've always said that I wanted a stable release, but I didn't want to wait until June.

iZac
Mar 22, 2007, 05:36 PM
im betting on a WWDC Keynote release, remember the developer invites:

"save the date" and a time machine screengrab.

If that doesnt say "we're giving you 10.5 today", i dont know what does?

... Of course, i would gladly be wrong :)

Peace
Mar 22, 2007, 05:37 PM
Like I've said before we'll see Leopard in April.

Still believe it too.;)

gugy
Mar 22, 2007, 05:39 PM
oh boy!
Well, I rather wait for Leopard and get a better product. so maybe at WWDC.

Now, I wonder if shipping dates for the new MacPro that's rumored to happen maybe at NAB will be delayed because of Leopard or if they will announce it at WWDC.

Lot's of waiting lately! (Leopard, iLife, iPhone, AppleTV (finally here), MacPro, widescreen iPod, etc.....) :eek: :mad:

digitalbiker
Mar 22, 2007, 05:39 PM
Technically, Spring extends through June 21st. (Northern Hemisphere) If WWDC is slated for June 11-15, then Leopard will be Springing right on time...... Better to be stable, complete, refined, and ready to stun the world than rushed to meet a dead-line.

True but usually Apple goes public with all of the new OS features at least a month or more before the release to generate interest and hype.

Developers haven't even seen any secret features yet and WWDC will be giving talks and presentations on issues with Leopard and developer projects.

It just seems like we are missing an event to announce the special features and provide updated Leopard builds to developers prior to WWDC.

Either there will be a special event added between NAB and WWDC or Leopard will be demonstrated at NAB with release just prior to WWDC.

mattscott306
Mar 22, 2007, 05:40 PM
Like I've said before we'll see Leopard in April.

Still believe it too.;)

No flurry of developer seeds, I think we'll hear of it in April but see it in May.

OwlsAndApples
Mar 22, 2007, 05:41 PM
No flurry of developer seeds, I think we'll hear of it in April but see it in May.

I agree, although the pessimist in me is leaning towards June :(

johnee
Mar 22, 2007, 05:42 PM
boy, i guess ever since i saw that picture of iCal inside of Time Machine as an ad for WWDC 07, i sorta figured it was coming out in June...

cz

what was the date on the calendar?!!? That's the answer!

Dokter_Mac
Mar 22, 2007, 05:44 PM
As I posted before there are 2 kinds of seeds.
One external and one internal.
The one that's external is for the developers and it has only those things on board the developer needs! If that's a buggy seed? It sure could be one ;)

The internal seed, no doubt under serious NDA, is the one with all the new stuff and also the one that will be a lot more stable.

This will be the first OS release from Apple that is tested internal for different reasons. It's not a surprise that Apple, since they shifted to Intel, is very careful with information! Even before they switched to Intel they were mysterious about new products and software.
That's just the way Apple is today.

I personal would not be surprised if Apple announced Leopard in a week.
Nobody will know until Apple is ready. The developers do not need to be ready. Just like when they switched to Intel, the developers will need to follow...

Regards

iamcrazyed
Mar 22, 2007, 05:45 PM
...there were some notable hiccups since I received my MacBook C2D in November.

Yeah, I bought mine in January and it was a little glitchy- a kernel panic within 2 weeks and sometimes it won't go to sleep when I close the lid. The rest I blame on Microsoft Office and Firefox. My eMac rarely gave me glitches, but I'm guessing that's because PPC tech was in it's final stage when I bought it. Intel tech is still new to Mac, so I accept the glitches as part of getting a faster machine with more options!

Edit: Mine is a C2D MBPro

inkswamp
Mar 22, 2007, 05:48 PM
I'm thinking another event somewhere in between NAB and WWDC for the Leopard announcement.

I think you're right. Why wouldn't Apple use the eagerly anticipated release of their next OS to get some media attention when WWDC will generate enough of that as is?

Besides, the Mac Mini, iMac, and Mac Pros are overdue for updates. Several other products are nearing the end of their cycle. I could easily imagine Leopard being released (or at least previewed) with a special event prior to June to release new Macs.

4God
Mar 22, 2007, 05:49 PM
Apple said June. Why is this a surprise to people?

Not everything at Apple is a magic trick.

-Clive

I think you're confusing this with the iPhone. ;)

crossifixio
Mar 22, 2007, 05:51 PM
It is coming out in May people, May I say. Next month the so called secret features will be revealed and in May it will be released before all the hardware upgrades. May is software month and June is hardware month. I think ;)

Pooldraft
Mar 22, 2007, 05:58 PM
At MacRumors, we're not big fans of speculation (http://normalkid.com/2007/03/16/the-difference-between-rumor-and-speculation/)

Sorry to be all lawyery(not a real word) but rumors are speculation so if you are not a fan of speculation go work for the Apple.com offcial website because only upon events happening does the speculation stop. Good Luck in you new line of work. Have fun.

Speculation = Roumor = Speculation

:D

inkswamp
Mar 22, 2007, 05:58 PM
As I posted before there are 2 kinds of seeds.
One external and one internal.

How do you know all this? Are you just guessing or do you know this for certain?

Stella
Mar 22, 2007, 06:04 PM
Honestly? I don't know how existent these secret features are. It kind of felt like Steve Jobs was aware that there wasn't much to show at the keynote so he was coming up with an excuse.

Thats the feeling I get, and have done for a long time.

The people on here who have seen the recent builds all say that 10.5 is far from ready.. which confirms this report.


...But still, people who aren't in the know - still insist on April...:rolleyes:

johnee
Mar 22, 2007, 06:05 PM
Sorry to be all lawyery(not a real word) but rumors are speculation so if you are not a fan of speculation go work for the Apple.com offcial website because only upon events happening does the speculation stop. Good Luck in you new line of work. Have fun.

Speculation = Roumor = Speculation

:D

innuendo is a better word

gctwnl
Mar 22, 2007, 06:05 PM
I think it will be June. Two reasons:
- I expect the top secret features *if* they exists to be new hardware related. Several Macs are overdue for an upgrade as well. I suspect that Leopard and Hardware arrival are linked. Hence I do not expect Leopard to arrive before new hardware *without* the new features. If Leopard arrives without new features, Apple will have to state that the new features will arrive shortly after in a 10.5.1 release.
- WWDC date was set to early June a while back, while the previous one was in August. Why this change? Personally, I think Apple tries to set WWDC dates to a moment that it can produce interesting results. They have to do this far in advance and it does not always work out. I gt the feelig that thy are struggling to make the June deadline, and I suspect we might see announcements for stuff that will ship in August.

So, my guess is we'll see new hardware in combination with new software in June. But it could be completely different of course.

DMann
Mar 22, 2007, 06:05 PM
Honestly, when i look on list of problems in Leopard, i'm affraid, that they will not make it even for WWDC.

WWDC would be the optimal stage for presenting Leopard to the world. As much as I'd like to see it sooner, it would likely be best to wait until June 12th for a truly dramatic presentation. 10 weeks time ought to be ample to correct any stability problems seen in the Developer's releases. Let's not be disappointed, however, if Leopard is presented at WWDC and shipped at a later date, since it would be better to release it when it is good and ready, than three quarters baked.

johnee
Mar 22, 2007, 06:09 PM
has apple ever sent out "bad" seeds (:p ) but after an "amazingly short period of time" come out with the final product?

If you're going to try to reason out the release date, you can't pick and choose your data. Something has to account for these bad seeds which will inevitably steal their parents car on the night of prom, get drunk, smash it, and get arrested, throwing away all hopes of getting into an ivy league college.

sikkinixx
Mar 22, 2007, 06:10 PM
I wanna get a new iMac but I want to wait for Leopard and maybe even a redesign *sigh* I wish they would hurry! waiting is no fun :D

TheBobcat
Mar 22, 2007, 06:10 PM
Sorry to be all lawyery(not a real word) but rumors are speculation so if you are not a fan of speculation go work for the Apple.com offcial website because only upon events happening does the speculation stop. Good Luck in you new line of work. Have fun.

Speculation = Roumor = Speculation

:D

I disagree, speculation is more someone's interpretation of an event or lack thereof, or their conjecture about the future.

A rumor is more a piece of evidence or news from a source concerning an event that has yet to happen.

The key difference being in speculation someone is taking a guess, whereas rumors are more objective.

Either way, I think Apple will most likely release in June at WWDC. The bigger question is will they announce the features beforehand? I think they should to a) generate buzz and b) openly test these new features.

Peace
Mar 22, 2007, 06:11 PM
For those that really believe there are no "secret" features.

Read this carefully and imagine what it can do in relation to the finder :

"Delight your users with dynamic, responsive user interfaces. In Leopard, standard AppKit NSViews can be rendered and animated using Core Animation. Learn how to combine familiar Cocoa controls, views, and event handling with the power of Core Animation layers to create stunning user interfaces."

Visualize..Use your imagination..

Do you really believe Apple is showing developers ways to make the GUI animated when Leopard won't be that way ?.

dashiel
Mar 22, 2007, 06:11 PM
As I posted before there are 2 kinds of seeds.
One external and one internal.
The one that's external is for the developers and it has only those things on board the developer needs! If that's a buggy seed? It sure could be one ;)

The internal seed, no doubt under serious NDA, is the one with all the new stuff and also the one that will be a lot more stable.

I personal would not be surprised if Apple announced Leopard in a week.
Nobody will know until Apple is ready. The developers do not need to be ready. Just like when they switched to Intel, the developers will need to follow...

Regards


sorry, but this is just not true. yes, there are internal builds and builds that get released to developers, but the idea that the internal builds is somehow significantly more stable or more feature rich than the external builds is plain wrong.

developers and consumers would be up in arms if leopard suddenly appeared without warning. applications would break all over the place and everyone would be irate with apple. apple does not have some magical build sitting around in cupertino that is near release status, if apple's internal QA division were that good we wouldn't need a beta program.

leopard is being developed just like every other OS X release. as the product gets closer to delivery apple will seed builds more rapidly. at some point apple will seed a release or final candidate. if any critical bugs are found they will be fixed and a new release/final candidate will be seeded. this is repeated until all critical bugs are gone. apple will then declare one of these builds a gold master.

once a build is declared gold master it will take about a month to press, package and ship copies to retail outlets. meaning if apple were to declare GM today, you wouldn't get leopard until late april. considering the RC/FC cycle usually takes a couple of weeks, and we haven't even hit that stage yet. any speculation about a leopard release earlier than late may is a bunch of uninformed, optimistic garbage.

-- oh and top secret features -- i think they're entirely iphone/multitouch related.

Ha ze
Mar 22, 2007, 06:13 PM
Spring ends June 21st I believe, so June is really the latest they can ship Leopard and still meet the "Spring 2007" promise.


Promise? It's a target...

iPod Shuffle.. "shipping in October" didn't happen
:apple: TV.. "shipping in February" didn't happen

Peace
Mar 22, 2007, 06:20 PM
[snippet]


sorry, but this is just not true. yes, there are internal builds and builds that get released to developers, but the idea that the internal builds is somehow significantly more stable or more feature rich than the external builds is plain wrong.



From personal experience I can tell you that is not true and Apple had an internal build of OS X running on an Intel Platform for a few years before ANYONE knew about it.

They can be and are very secretative often.

lazyrighteye
Mar 22, 2007, 06:21 PM
Promise? It's a target...

iPod Shuffle.. "shipping in October" didn't happen
:apple: TV.. "shipping in February" didn't happen

3ghz?

The Talking Heads said it best... "still waiting!"

FreeState
Mar 22, 2007, 06:22 PM
I think it will be June. Two reasons:
- I expect the top secret features *if* they exists to be new hardware related. Several Macs are overdue for an upgrade as well....

- WWDC date was set to early June a while back, while the previous one was in August...

So, my guess is we'll see new hardware in combination with new software in June. But it could be completely different of course.

And here is one big reason I disagree - iPhone.

The iPhone release date is June 15. Apple would not do anything to distract from the publicity of that. I suspect that it will be announced in April and shipped at the end of April/Begining of May for maximum free press and to keep it from distracting from the iPhone. Most people can only spend so much money in one month after all:)

lazyrighteye
Mar 22, 2007, 06:24 PM
And here is one big reason I disagree - iPhone.

The iPhone release date is June 15. Apple would not do anything to distract from the publicity of that. I suspect that it will be announced in April and shipped at the end of April/Begining of May for maximum free press and to keep it from distracting from the iPhone. Most people can only spend so much money in one month after all:)

When was a 'June 15' date made official?

photo-video
Mar 22, 2007, 06:32 PM
switchtoamac.com predicts a May 11, 2007 date. The article was posted last week and got really dugg up over at digg, something like over 1200 diggs. They came up with a date by analyzing past releases, Mac OS X Leopard book publication dates, and the fact that WWDC although in June occurs in Spring


http://switchtoamac.com/site/mac-os-x-leopard-105-a-may-2007-release.html (http://switchtoamac.com/site/mac-os-x-leopard-105-a-may-2007-release.html)

Stridder44
Mar 22, 2007, 06:35 PM
developers and consumers would be up in arms if leopard suddenly appeared without warning. applications would break all over the place and everyone would be irate with apple. apple does not have some magical build sitting around in cupertino that is near release status, if apple's internal QA division were that good we wouldn't need a beta program.


Yeah, and OS X wasn't being developed for Intel years before they just spilled the beans. Oh wait....

Consumers and developers alike made that switch pretty fast.

koobcamuk
Mar 22, 2007, 06:37 PM
Like I've said before we'll see Leopard in April.

Still believe it too.;)

No chance. I will give you my iMac if we do.

AvSRoCkCO1067
Mar 22, 2007, 06:37 PM
[snippet]





From personal experience I can tell you that is not true and Apple had an internal build of OS X running on an Intel Platform for a few years before ANYONE knew about it.

They can be and are very secretative often.

very good point...

surferfromuk
Mar 22, 2007, 06:37 PM
"Delight your users with dynamic, responsive user interfaces. In Leopard, standard AppKit NSViews can be rendered and animated using Core Animation. Learn how to combine familiar Cocoa controls, views, and event handling with the power of Core Animation layers to create stunning user interfaces."


I've not seen this before. Your right - this is seriously exciting...Where is the source of this text ? Apple.com ?

if this is true that means that previously static UI environments will be animated and 'elastic'...

I'm thinking when I launch the system preferences it's going to be like a bloody menagerie of activity in there...icons bouncing, arrows rotating, things spinning, light bulbs flashing, flags waving, clock hands whirring, little burglers with swag bags running out of the file vault icon being pursued by little animated policeman...

if this is true then I've just bought a copy of leopard when I originally said I wasn't going to (for a while anyway) !!!..

or did I go to far ?

abrooks
Mar 22, 2007, 06:38 PM
Yeah, and OS X wasn't being developed for Intel years before they just spilled the beans. Oh wait....

Consumers and developers alike made that switch pretty fast.

Took 7 months since the announcement before it was released.

I agree with dashiel, Apple obviously is running internal builds which may be more stable than developer builds but developers need a long time to test their applications. If Apple releases huge new OS X features then testing is required, we're going to see an announcement far in advance of release.

AvSRoCkCO1067
Mar 22, 2007, 06:38 PM
No chance. I will give you my iMac if we do.

Be careful...Peace has been stunningly accurate in the past so...

Peace
Mar 22, 2007, 06:39 PM
No chance. I will give you my iMac if we do.


So if we see Leopard in April you will give me your iMac ?

Is it PPC or Intel ? :D

post number bookmarked

mklos
Mar 22, 2007, 06:40 PM
I really don't understand why people wait until Leopard is shipping to get a new Mac. Why? I'd rather buy my own standalone copy of Leopard. Then if I get rid of that Mac, I still have my own copy with me and not some proprietary version that only works with the Mac it shipped on. Plus, what if you don't like Leopard for whatever reason? You're stuck using it and can't go back to Tiger because you can't use an OS lesser than what it shipped with. Don't let a software update hold you back. Go out and buy the darn Mac if you're going to buy it. You're not always going to have the latest and greatest.

I think WWDC will be when Leopard is shipping. Then Apple can show off the new features and improvements. It only makes sense to me. Beta releases are slightly picking up the pace but not as fast as if they were in the finishing up process. So we all impatiently wait! :D

akac
Mar 22, 2007, 06:41 PM
Took 7 months since the announcement before it was released.

I agree with dashiel, Apple obviously is running internal builds which may be more stable than developer builds but developers need a long time to test their applications. If Apple releases huge new OS X features then testing is required, we're going to see an announcement far in advance of release.

Only if those new features are for developers. All of those are in the dev seeds already. But devs don't need to test a new Finder or new fancy effects in the OS. I'm not saying that that's whats going to be there - but as a developer I can tell you Apple could provide a OS X build with no apps or Finder and it would be suitable for getting our apps ready for Leopard.

BillyShears
Mar 22, 2007, 06:41 PM
And here is one big reason I disagree - iPhone.

The iPhone release date is June 15. Apple would not do anything to distract from the publicity of that. I suspect that it will be announced in April and shipped at the end of April/Begining of May for maximum free press and to keep it from distracting from the iPhone. Most people can only spend so much money in one month after all:)

I have not heard June 15 for iPhone, only June. So your theory doesn't work if Leopard is released mid-June (WWDC) and iPhone is released later. Surely a week or two is all the "hype" and operating system update can get. Plus, when the iPhone is released, Leopard tags along: "Earlier this month, Apple also released..."

Alternatively, one of the secret features may be related to iPhone, thus requiring a simultaneous release (or near-simultaneous).

Peace
Mar 22, 2007, 06:43 PM
I've not seen this before. Your right - this is seriously exciting...Where is the source of this text ? Apple.com ?

if this is true that means that previously static UI environments will be animated and 'elastic'...

I'm thinking when I launch the system preferences it's going to be like a bloody menagerie of activity in there...icons bouncing, arrows rotating, things spinning, light bulbs flashing, flags waving, clock hands whirring, little burglers with swag bags running out of the file vault icon being pursued by little animated policeman...

if this is true then I've just bought a copy of leopard when I originally said I wasn't going to (for a while anyway) !!!..

or did I go to far ?

http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/sessions/track.html

Look under "Building Animated Cocoa User Interfaces"

abrooks
Mar 22, 2007, 06:46 PM
Only if those new features are for developers. All of those are in the dev seeds already. But devs don't need to test a new Finder or new fancy effects in the OS. I'm not saying that that's whats going to be there - but as a developer I can tell you Apple could provide a OS X build with no apps or Finder and it would be suitable for getting our apps ready for Leopard.

Some developer you are, every single framework in OS X is vital to the running of an application, any adjustments to the Finder would almost certainly impact applications, you cannot adjust things and just throw it out into the wild. Developers need to see it first and be given time.

Take for example the latest builds of 10.4.9, just two days before it was released Apple released a build that had 2 fixes, which were related to the System Preferences pane. They still seeded a build for developers and 2 days later 10.4.9 went public.

mi5moav
Mar 22, 2007, 06:47 PM
The iphonebloggers also mention that the release will be actually available to the public after the June WWDC. But this doesn't make sense with the will be ready by Spring claim Apple has been sticking to.

http://iphoneblogger.blogspot.com/2007/03/apples-mac-os-105-leopard-to-be.html

maxrobertson
Mar 22, 2007, 06:49 PM
Honestly? I don't know how existent these secret features are. It kind of felt like Steve Jobs was aware that there wasn't much to show at the keynote so he was coming up with an excuse.

Do you really think he'd be willing to completely throw away Apple's great credibility?

surferfromuk
Mar 22, 2007, 06:50 PM
http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/sessions/track.html

Look under "Building Animated Cocoa User Interfaces"

This could be very exciting stuff...Thanks!.

This kind of fun and dynamic 'eye' candy really would give Vista a body blow wouldn't it..

dr_lha
Mar 22, 2007, 06:52 PM
Some developer you are, every single framework in OS X is vital to the running of an application, any adjustments to the Finder would almost certainly impact applications, you cannot adjust things and just throw it out into the wild. Developers need to see it first and be given time.

The Finder is just another App. How many 3rd party apps actually rely on the presence of the Finder? Apple could dump the Finder all together and I doubt it would really impact any developer.

MalcolmJID
Mar 22, 2007, 06:52 PM
July 17th.

jadekitty24
Mar 22, 2007, 06:52 PM
Patience, people. Good things come to those who wait. I prefer to wait a bit and get a good product rather than get crap now. Apple's operating systems are (imo) worth waiting for. Always have been and always will be. :cool:

abrooks
Mar 22, 2007, 06:57 PM
The Finder is just another App. How many 3rd party apps actually rely on the presence of the Finder? Apple could dump the Finder all together and I doubt it would really impact any developer.

OK, my wording could have been better, I meant the Finder and its relevant frameworks.

pale9
Mar 22, 2007, 07:20 PM
i've been a pretty loyal apple fan since i switched over about 2 years ago. but now i am beginning to feel duped. back in january jobs could have said ***something*** about where leopard and ilife/iworks 07 stand. and i'm not even talking about the freakin 'secret' features here. now, almost at the end of march, the silence is beginning to be deafening. it wouldnt hurt apple one bit to keep feeding us some information. i feel like i am in an airliner, on the tarmac, just waiting and waiting and the pilot does not come on the pa system to tell us diddly squat.

oh yes, and please dont give me the old 'patience patience' line....
--------------------------
the count
http://thecountsworld.blogspot.com/

weezer160
Mar 22, 2007, 07:23 PM
Well, speculation is fun, but it doesn't present anything concrete. I'd like to say, that if we are indeed waiting for Leopard until June, are we also waiting for the release of iWork '07 until then as well? Besides that, right now is technically spring... and it is 2007, but so in june. To me, it's more likely that we'll see a release in mid-April, only because of the huge delay of iWork. That delay can only go on so long. I'm just saying, it's just likely that it's highly unlikely we'll wait until June.

McGarvels
Mar 22, 2007, 07:26 PM
i've been a pretty loyal apple fan since i switched over about 2 years ago. but now i am beginning to feel duped. back in january jobs could have said ***something*** about where leopard and ilife/iworks 07 stand. and i'm not even talking about the freakin 'secret' features here. now, almost at the end of march, the silence is beginning to be deafening. it wouldnt hurt apple one bit to keep feeding us some information. i feel like i am in an airliner, on the tarmac, just waiting and waiting and the pilot does not come on the pa system to tell us diddly squat.

oh yes, and please dont give me the old 'patience patience' line....
--------------------------
the count
http://thecountsworld.blogspot.com/

I completely agree with you. I mean, macworld was on January 9th right? And we've had no news about leopard, mac updates, etc...nothing. Heck, they even went so far as to go back on their promise of shipping :apple: tv in february. wait, what's that, people just now got theirs. give me a break. It is March 22nd. Quite ridiculous IMO. Throw us a bone Steve.

P.S. Sorry for the rant...I just really would like any news. Preferably I would like Leopard to be released tomorrow and it be flawless, but hey I can dream right?

AlBDamned
Mar 22, 2007, 07:27 PM
I noticed a tiny thing the other day that will do nothing to swing the debate one way or the other, but take a a look at these two pictures taken from two different national Apple sites at the bottom of the Mac OS X tab along the top.

Australian Site (http://www.apple.com/au/macosx/leopard/index.html) is first, US site (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) is second. Notice anything?

surferfromuk
Mar 22, 2007, 07:28 PM
Please everyone return to your seats, wait until the oxygen masks drop from the overhead lockers, place the mask over your face, pull the cord and BREATHE...... Now repeat after me ;

"this is JUST an o/s update...no bread and fishes will be served...my life is still complete and my current mac is still beautiful and functional"

McGarvels
Mar 22, 2007, 07:30 PM
I noticed a tiny thing the other day that will do nothing to swing the debate one way or the other, but take a a look at these two pictures taken from two different national Apple sites at the bottom of the Mac OS X tab along the top.

Australian Site (http://www.apple.com/au/macosx/leopard/index.html) is first, US site (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) is second. Notice anything?

This has been brought up already. And while it does say Mid-2007, they couldn't very well say "Spring 2007" on an Australian site considering you have different seasons than the northern hemisphere. All in all though, Mid-2007 can point to May-June-July-August. Regardless, I hope it's not June and sometime in May, but again who knows in ever elusive/secretive :apple: Land

justflie
Mar 22, 2007, 07:30 PM
I noticed a tiny thing the other day that will do nothing to swing the debate one way or the other, but take a a look at these two pictures taken from two different national Apple sites at the bottom of the Mac OS X tab along the top.

Ding Ding Ding. I think we have a winner. Hopefully we all realize that "Spring 2007" is just for the Northern Hemisphere. This points to a late-spring release, which would equate to mid-2007 down under. Oh well, I'm waiting for a new Macbook Pro anyways.

05elstonc
Mar 22, 2007, 07:32 PM
I noticed a tiny thing the other day that will do nothing to swing the debate one way or the other, but take a a look at these two pictures taken from two different national Apple sites at the bottom of the Mac OS X tab along the top.

Australian Site (http://www.apple.com/au/macosx/leopard/index.html) is first, US site (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) is second. Notice anything?

I would bet this just has to do to the fact that Australia being the southern hemisphere "Spring" doesn't really jive. The spring Apple is talking about is USA spring. So it would be confusing to put spring on the Aussie site.

AlBDamned
Mar 22, 2007, 07:39 PM
I would bet this just has to do to the fact that Australia being the southern hemisphere "Spring" doesn't really jive. The spring Apple is talking about is USA spring. So it would be confusing to put spring on the Aussie site.

Fair suggestion about "spring" because it's not Spring down here in June, but surely they'd just replace it with "Autumn 2007?"

"Mid-2007" is fairly specific.

EagerDragon
Mar 22, 2007, 07:39 PM
The quiet before the storm.
It will come out when it is ready.

However there seem to be a lot depending on Leopard, there is a lot of software and hardware that is not yet happening that should have been happening month to month.

I could be wrong, but releasing too many products at one time would cause some to go unnoticed by the press, would seem better to just keep anouncing a new product every month or two to keep the press and the shareholders jumping, not to say the least of us who love new toys.

Stella
Mar 22, 2007, 07:39 PM
Ding Ding Ding. I think we have a winner. Hopefully we all realize that "Spring 2007" is just for the Northern Hemisphere. This points to a late-spring release, which would equate to mid-2007 down under. Oh well, I'm waiting for a new Macbook Pro anyways.

What else would it be?

Apple are based in the north hemisphere.


When Apple have said "winter, spring, summer" - its always relative to north hem.

Really, people like getting creative and thinking up weird and wonderful ideas.

Whatever next? South Hemisphere people bitching because they think Apple are going to make them wait 6 months for their 'Spring' to come around?! LOL

justflie
Mar 22, 2007, 07:40 PM
I would bet this just has to do to the fact that Australia being the southern hemisphere "Spring" doesn't really jive. The spring Apple is talking about is USA spring. So it would be confusing to put spring on the Aussie site.

Yes. But this points specifically to a LATE-spring release. Most have been guessing a late spring release as opposed March. This would be more along the lines of a mid-late April (NAB at the absolute earliest) to mid June (the end of spring).

BillyShears
Mar 22, 2007, 07:53 PM
I'm thinking when I launch the system preferences it's going to be like a bloody menagerie of activity in there...icons bouncing, arrows rotating, things spinning, light bulbs flashing, flags waving, clock hands whirring, little burglers with swag bags running out of the file vault icon being pursued by little animated policeman...

"Oh, and one more thing. Those secret features? TOTAL GEOCITIES INTEGRATION"

EagerDragon
Mar 22, 2007, 07:55 PM
But still, I consider Tiger as only half the deal... Leopard will be the OS to let the Intels really shine.



Mostly agree, however IMHO the Intel machines will shine when the OS is only shipping in 64 bit version and all the software from Apple and 3rd parties is also 64 bit. Programs do not yet take advantage of the memory space and instruction set available to them. To grow into the hardware a lot of programs would need to be redesigned to do more tasking and to allocate memory without wories about being ineficient like in a 32 bit world.

surferfromuk
Mar 22, 2007, 07:55 PM
"Oh, and one more thing. Those secret features? TOTAL GEOCITIES INTEGRATION"


LOL!!...I hope that doesn't mean everytime I turn it on I get a 'this account is no longer available' message.." and a bunch of sorry looking ads...

Lixivial
Mar 22, 2007, 08:03 PM
*waits for Top Secret Features*

Top secret feature #1 has been revealed in the article!

One more tip we got regarding Leopard, is that InputManager plugins are no longer allowed. That's right... no more little hacks from anybody besides Apple. No more Apple menu hacks. No more Safari plugins. (InputManager is not exactly the same as APE, by the way.) "Apple isn't really broken up about it since InputManagers were often used for nefarious purposes anyway," our sources said, but the loss of InputManager control will break a lot of shareware and commercial software that currently makes use of that control. "

So long SIMBL, we hardly knew ye. :( It's correct, though, most of the publicized malware present in OS X has used InputManagers.

FF_productions
Mar 22, 2007, 08:07 PM
At this point, we only have two upcoming Apple media events on our calendars: NAB on April 15th, and WWDC 2007 in June. The NAB event will likely be centered around Final Cut Pro and WWDC 2007 will certainly be Mac OS X focused.



Are we forgetting that the iPhone will be released in June?

Leopard should be released before June, and Steve will talk about OSX and the iPhone at WWDC.

Dokter_Mac
Mar 22, 2007, 08:11 PM
Took 7 months since the announcement before it was released.

I agree with dashiel, Apple obviously is running internal builds which may be more stable than developer builds but developers need a long time to test their applications. If Apple releases huge new OS X features then testing is required, we're going to see an announcement far in advance of release.

Look at Versiontracker. Developers are ready, there is already a 10.5 section.
And about the NDA, some developers like Adobe will have a better and more featured seed of Leopard. Yeah, even with a updated Finder (which is still in current external seeds from Tiger)!

I'm sure, because we are living in a digital age like never before, there is a very strict NDA for some big developers and the internal builds at Apple. There are enough examples from information that was leaked in the past where Apple was pissed. So they are very careful know. This is a big OS release you know!

Anyway, like with the Intel switch the developers that are not ready will folow in the months after the full release with all the new secret stuff. Right now they have to do it with the urgently needed stuff like Frameworks and others.

SiliconAddict
Mar 22, 2007, 08:13 PM
Hmmm


1. I couldn't care less if its released in November. Stability over launch date. My computer isn't intended as a playground for new software. Whatever I put on it dang well better be stable.

2. So far the feature set does not impress me. At maybe $80-$90? Sure. At $130? No.

3. Bugs. I'm getting a really twitchy feeling about Leopard. And even if I do bite its probably going to be after 10.5.1. Maybe even 10.5.2.

massiv
Mar 22, 2007, 08:13 PM
Actually sales of mac laptops are down according to MacCentral. They were reporting a 2% drop in sales.

I also believe that mac pro sales are not what they could be because many pros are on the fence waiting for the Octo / redesigned mac pro update w/ Leopard or free Leopard upgrade with coupon.

Sorry this was like three days ago... but I just wanted to point out that alot of "pros" are waiting for Native applications, ie. CS3, etc. Only video and science pros would worry about 8 processors. Us graphics people, who make up a decent slice of the pie, are waiting for Adobe to release Creative Suite and have a tough enough time filling up 4 cores.

just my .02 :)

Dokter_Mac
Mar 22, 2007, 08:19 PM
Some developer you are, every single framework in OS X is vital to the running of an application, any adjustments to the Finder would almost certainly impact applications, you cannot adjust things and just throw it out into the wild. Developers need to see it first and be given time.


I'm sure a lot of existing software will be backwards compatible ;)
Even with the Finder! (Which will be new in Leopard and is still a adapted Tiger-version in current seeds)

sageimac
Mar 22, 2007, 08:21 PM
I'm waiting for the new iMac release AND Leopard. Once these both come out, I can't see any reason NOT to buy a new mac.

DMann
Mar 22, 2007, 08:23 PM
i've been a pretty loyal apple fan since i switched over about 2 years ago. but now i am beginning to feel duped. back in january jobs could have said ***something*** about where leopard and ilife/iworks 07 stand. and i'm not even talking about the freakin 'secret' features here. now, almost at the end of march, the silence is beginning to be deafening. it wouldnt hurt apple one bit to keep feeding us some information. i feel like i am in an airliner, on the tarmac, just waiting and waiting and the pilot does not come on the pa system to tell us diddly squat.

oh yes, and please dont give me the old 'patience patience' line....
--------------------------
the count
http://thecountsworld.blogspot.com/

Apple has always taken pride in their ability to conceal things until "The Big Day" when things are presented. From what we've already seen in Leopard: Time Machine, Core Animation, etc, we have every reason to believe that Leopard will indeed have some surprisingly great new features, based upon Core Animation and other advanced processor and GPU integration. Apple does not want this impact to be diluted by leaks and previews. I've got a really positive outlook for June....No need to worry, this ain't MS we're dealing with.

FF_productions
Mar 22, 2007, 08:27 PM
I'm waiting for the new iMac release AND Leopard. Once these both come out, I can't see any reason NOT to buy a new mac.

Same here. My Dad is going to buy an iMac but it's kinda on the verge of a huge update.

photomaniac
Mar 22, 2007, 08:27 PM
Thats the feeling I get, and have done for a long time.

The people on here who have seen the recent builds all say that 10.5 is far from ready.. which confirms this report.


...But still, people who aren't in the know - still insist on April...:rolleyes:

:( :( :(

Dokter_Mac
Mar 22, 2007, 08:28 PM
On the Leopard Sneak Peek Page, has anyone ever seen some features from the Finder?
You always see the Finder icon in the dock, but never a Finder window or something else considering the Finder.

jumpinjohn
Mar 22, 2007, 08:34 PM
i've been a pretty loyal apple fan since i switched over about 2 years ago. but now i am beginning to feel duped. back in january jobs could have said ***something*** about where leopard and ilife/iworks 07 stand. and i'm not even talking about the freakin 'secret' features here. now, almost at the end of march, the silence is beginning to be deafening. it wouldnt hurt apple one bit to keep feeding us some information. i feel like i am in an airliner, on the tarmac, just waiting and waiting and the pilot does not come on the pa system to tell us diddly squat.

oh yes, and please dont give me the old 'patience patience' line....
--------------------------
the count
http://thecountsworld.blogspot.com/

I'm at three years since switching. I remember the days when we were so excited, anticipating Windows95. Let's see, the next version was Windows98 which was a joke and then finally Windows 2000 which was significant. How long was the Vista wait? I don't know exactly, but XP came along somewhere between 2000 and 2003...

So just how do you think you have been hood-winked? Doesn't Tiger work now? and just what do you need to do that not having Leopard prevents? If you are just sitting on the tarmac doing nothing, then I'm mystified.

I'm as eager as the next person and am looking at several major purchases probably, but it seems silly to get all upset because Apple's spring is not the same as your idea of spring. Sounds like all those folks who think Apple shouldn't make a profit. They should just be in business for the fun and benefit of others.

rant over... :-)

guzhogi
Mar 22, 2007, 08:34 PM
Top secret features: Klingon language support! Actually, Klingon is already supported in 10.4. In Sytem Prefs, under International pane, check out the "Edit list." Near the middle, there should be "thlingon Hol". Under some versions of Mac OS X, it might be "Klingon". Some people have way too much time on their hands.

Max Payne
Mar 22, 2007, 08:35 PM
I can't wait to read your responses when Leopard is delayed until September. :D

psychometry
Mar 22, 2007, 08:47 PM
I really don't understand why people wait until Leopard is shipping to get a new Mac. Why? I'd rather buy my own standalone copy of Leopard. Then if I get rid of that Mac, I still have my own copy with me and not some proprietary version that only works with the Mac it shipped on.
That's not how it works. An OS X DVD is an OS X DVD. Period.

There are no hardware-specific OEMs.

Stella
Mar 22, 2007, 09:03 PM
That's not how it works. An OS X DVD is an OS X DVD. Period.

There are no hardware-specific OEMs.

are you sure?

I few OSX's back, I couldn't install that particular version of OSX that came with my iBook on my PowerBook.

FF_productions
Mar 22, 2007, 09:06 PM
are you sure?

I few OSX's back, I couldn't install that particular version of OSX that came with my iBook on my PowerBook.

Strange. Maybe your PowerBook couldn't take an earlier version of OSX (For example, 10.3.4 is the minimum but the disc was only 10.3.0)

dashiel
Mar 22, 2007, 09:09 PM
From personal experience I can tell you that is not true and Apple had an internal build of OS X running on an Intel Platform for a few years before ANYONE knew about it.

They can be and are very secretative often.

Yeah, and OS X wasn't being developed for Intel years before they just spilled the beans. Oh wait....

Consumers and developers alike made that switch pretty fast.

there is a massive difference between an active beta for a future product and a "plan b" version that might never see the light of day. there was no benefit to releasing an intel beta version of os x prior to apple decision to switch to the x86 platform. not to mention developers were given 9 months of beta testing with os x for intel.

it does a disservice to apple, the developers and the consumers to hold back some secret version of leopard. each build introduces new bugs, fixes others, deprecates some rare API; the whole purpose of a beta is to find those bugs. keeping this "secret version" back does nothing more than delay the eventual release.

this isn't really that tough, build frequency increases; release candidate released, gold master released; production; release. we haven't even seen the start of this process yet. leopard will not be out before may and i doubt we'll see it until june.

Multimedia
Mar 22, 2007, 09:10 PM
I've always thought it wouldn't be before May so June sound fine. Maybe Steve will reveal all the secrets as well as announce it's shipping in his June 11th WWDC SteveNote.

Mgkwho
Mar 22, 2007, 09:11 PM
I think Leopard will be released in May. June will be reserved for iPhone and WWDC stuff- you need Leopard beforehand for the developers!

Anyone know why WWDC was pushed up?



Release Dates (13, assuming upcoming tuesdays):
March 20 (21st the :apple:TV shipped), 27 (CS3 is released); April 3, 10, 17 (NAB keynote is the 15th), 24; May 1, 8, 15, 22, 29; June 5, 12 (WWDC)

Products (11 excluding :apple:TV):
Mac Mini, Mac Pro, Cinema Display, MacBook, MacBook Pro, iMac, iPods, iPhone, Leopard + iSoftware, Final Cut et. al., and possibly xServe at WWDC? (haven't heard anything)

Not to mention something unexpected up their sleeves, and popular accessories like iPod Hi-Fi, MightyMouse and Airport Express or other applications/.Mac.


All of this said, are we all in agreement that the products listed will get updated by WWDC?

-=|Mgkwho

guzhogi
Mar 22, 2007, 09:13 PM
That's not how it works. An OS X DVD is an OS X DVD. Period.

There are no hardware-specific OEMs.

Actually, I remember having the CD or DVD that came w/ a new (at the time) Mac. When I tried installing it on a different kind of Mac, it said that it wasn't supported b/c not the right Mac model. The version of Mac OS totally supported on both computers (I think it was 8.5 for an iMac trying to install on a G3 iBook). While not Mac OS X, Apple is known to do that.

dicklacara
Mar 22, 2007, 09:15 PM
My guess (and that's all it is) is that Leopard (at least Leopard Server) will have the option to run on Linux as well as the current flavor of Unix.

...could be interesting!

iJawn108
Mar 22, 2007, 09:16 PM
That's not how it works. An OS X DVD is an OS X DVD. Period.

There are no hardware-specific OEMs.

Umm no. Stick my MacBook DVDs into an ibook and see how that works.


Oh and the next Ubuntu 7.04 "Feisty Fawn" will be out in april... not that apple really will be competing with them. But I'm shure it will get alot of news coverage when released and they want that to die down so leopard will steal the show.

Digitalclips
Mar 22, 2007, 09:22 PM
My guess (and that's all it is) is that Leopard (at least Leopard Server) will have the option to run on Linux as well as the current flavor of Unix.

...could be interesting!

What a totally weird thing to say! Why on earth would OS X server 'run on Linux' it is an OS all its own! If you want Linux run Linux if you want OS X run OS X.

justflie
Mar 22, 2007, 09:23 PM
That's not how it works. An OS X DVD is an OS X DVD. Period.

There are no hardware-specific OEMs.
The software disks that come with a new mac will not work in another mac model. I'm pretty sure there's some sort of check in the DVD that looks at the model of computer vs what the disk allows. ie the disks that came with my iMac will only work in a similar iMac (not sure about the core duo/core2duo distinction).

Digitalclips
Mar 22, 2007, 09:23 PM
I've always thought it wouldn't be before May so June sound fine. Maybe Steve will reveal all the secrets as well as announce it's shipping in his June 11th WWDC SteveNote.

I have to think WWDC is the 'when' even if not 'shipping yet'.

dicklacara
Mar 22, 2007, 09:26 PM
Umm no. Stick my MacBook DVDs into an ibook and see how that works.

I have 8 different Macs -- each one has its own hardware-specific copy of OS X (boot disk) that is shipped with the computer.

However, a Purchased stand-alone OS X should install on any (supported) Mac that is available at the time of purchase...

...Obviously, a Stand-alone OS X before the Intel switch will not install on Intel boxes.

Dick

jlestes
Mar 22, 2007, 09:27 PM
Check out the WWDC07 image its background is leopard print...

http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/

dicklacara
Mar 22, 2007, 09:28 PM
What a totally weird thing to say! Why on earth would OS X server 'run on Linux' it is an OS all its own! If you want Linux run Linux if you want OS X run OS X.

P-E-R-F-O-R-M-A-N-C-E / O-P-P-O-R-T-U-N-I-T-Y

FF_productions
Mar 22, 2007, 09:29 PM
Check out the WWDC07 image its background is leopard print...

http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/

Of course it is. Leopard is going to be discussed at WWDC 07 and WWDC is alll about the developers so obviously the focus is on the Operating System.

zblaxberg
Mar 22, 2007, 09:31 PM
I noticed a tiny thing the other day that will do nothing to swing the debate one way or the other, but take a a look at these two pictures taken from two different national Apple sites at the bottom of the Mac OS X tab along the top.

Australian Site (http://www.apple.com/au/macosx/leopard/index.html) is first, US site (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) is second. Notice anything?

i don't notice anything...it says mid 2007 and spring 2007...that doesn't mean diddly squat

jlestes
Mar 22, 2007, 09:33 PM
Of course it is. Leopard is going to be discussed at WWDC 07 and WWDC is alll about the developers so obviously the focus is on the Operating System.

wouldn't that then imply that leopard had already been released or its "top secret" features had already been revealed by then or done during that event?

crees!
Mar 22, 2007, 09:35 PM
I'm thinking another event somewhere in between NAB and WWDC for the Leopard announcement. (More like hoping). They do promise a spring delivery on the site, so it has to be before WWDC.

I've been thinking mid-late May at the earliest and don't have any problem with between June and AUGUST to expect Leopard's release.

crees!
Mar 22, 2007, 09:35 PM
wouldn't that then imply that leopard had already been released or its "top secret" features had already been revealed by then or done during that event?

Nope.

FF_productions
Mar 22, 2007, 09:35 PM
wouldn't that then imply that leopard had already been released or its "top secret" features had already been revealed by then or done during that event?

I think it will be released before WWDC, and then discussed at WWDC. They did the same thing with Tiger, it was released in April 05, then in June 05 he played around with Tiger.

dmelgar
Mar 22, 2007, 09:37 PM
Article mentions that Safari plugins are no longer available in Leopard.
If I lose the ability to block ads, I might not want to upgrade to Leopard. Most of what I've seen previewed has been minor enhancements, nothing thats really a must have. Blocking ads is a must have that I have with Tiger. I sure hope Safariblock folks find a way to work in Safari 3.0 or that Apple has built in that function.

FF_productions
Mar 22, 2007, 09:40 PM
Article mentions that Safari plugins are no longer available in Leopard.
If I lose the ability to block ads, I might not want to upgrade to Leopard. Most of what I've seen previewed has been minor enhancements, nothing thats really a must have. Blocking ads is a must have that I have with Tiger. I sure hope Safariblock folks find a way to work in Safari 3.0 or that Apple has built in that function.

Why would they take it away. You know there is a pop-up blocker 70718 built into Safari?

Stella
Mar 22, 2007, 09:45 PM
Answer: Firefox
Article mentions that Safari plugins are no longer available in Leopard.
If I lose the ability to block ads, I might not want to upgrade to Leopard. Most of what I've seen previewed has been minor enhancements, nothing thats really a must have. Blocking ads is a must have that I have with Tiger. I sure hope Safariblock folks find a way to work in Safari 3.0 or that Apple has built in that function.

yg17
Mar 22, 2007, 09:45 PM
P-E-R-F-O-R-M-A-N-C-E / O-P-P-O-R-T-U-N-I-T-Y

I don't think you understand....

Tiger is an operating system.
Leopard is an operating system.
Windows is an operating system.
Linux is an operating system.
Unix is an operating system.

You don't run one on the other. They run independently. Sure, you could emulate and virtualize, but the performance is absolute crap.

Mgkwho
Mar 22, 2007, 09:51 PM
You don't run one on the other. They run independently. Sure, you could emulate and virtualize, but the performance is absolute crap.

Spoken like a true democrat. haha!

But seriously though, virtulization is hot stuff right now. And while I've never used Parallels or anything, and probably never will, I hear it's amazing stuff. Are you sure the performance is bad?

-=|Mgkwho

yg17
Mar 22, 2007, 09:53 PM
Spoken like a true democrat. haha!

But seriously though, virtulization is hot stuff right now. And while I've never used Parallels or anything, and probably never will, I hear it's amazing stuff. Are you sure the performance is bad?

-=|Mgkwho

I use Parallels on my iMac and the performance sucks. Maybe it's the fact I only have a gig of RAM though. But regardless, the performance will always be worse than if you were running that OS on that machine without virtualization

dicklacara
Mar 22, 2007, 10:06 PM
I don't think you understand....

Tiger is an operating system.
Leopard is an operating system.
Windows is an operating system.
Linux is an operating system.
Unix is an operating system.

You don't run one on the other. They run independently. Sure, you could emulate and virtualize, but the performance is absolute crap.

Oversimplifing here:

1) OS X is comprised of several propritary layers on top of a (quasi) public domain OS: Unix

2) OS X uses the Mach kernal which many say is inferior in capacity/performance to a Linux kernal

3) Linux, like OS X is based on Unix & very similar, externally

4) The proprietary layers of OS X could be made to run on a Linux kernal as well as on the Mach kernal


To do this would:

-- Potentially improve OS X performance in high-performance environments

-- give Apple access to the large install base of Linux users (mainly servers)

-- bring a much-needed consumer-friendly desktop GUI to Linux

--flesh out the Linux environment with drivers, features, applications, etc.

-- potentially exploit several markets: desktop, server, hand-held at a very opportune time

Digitalclips
Mar 22, 2007, 10:07 PM
I use Parallels on my iMac and the performance sucks. Maybe it's the fact I only have a gig of RAM though. But regardless, the performance will always be worse than if you were running that OS on that machine without virtualization

Well for most folks who need Windoze for a few things Parallels is wonderful. Saves buying a PC too :)

My wife uses Parallels every day on a 1.8 GHz MacBook with 1 GIG of RAM and it is fast enough for IE. She uses it only for Explorer as she is a Realtor and all those bastard MLS sites are Wondoze only (which should be illegal!). For everything else she uses OS X. Great thing about Parallels now is with the new version you don't even have to see the damn Windoze desk top.

Another great thing is I can back up the whole pile of XP crap in a folder and replace it in seconds if it gets screwed up, try that on a PC. :p

Digitalclips
Mar 22, 2007, 10:13 PM
I don't think you understand....

Tiger is an operating system.
Leopard is an operating system.
Windows is an operating system.
Linux is an operating system.
Unix is an operating system.

You don't run one on the other. They run independently. Sure, you could emulate and virtualize, but the performance is absolute crap.

Right. The reality is they are totally separate now and I doubt we will see the sort of intermixing suggested.

dude-x
Mar 22, 2007, 10:16 PM
[snippet]





From personal experience I can tell you that is not true and Apple had an internal build of OS X running on an Intel Platform for a few years before ANYONE knew about it.

They can be and are very secretative often.

The Inquirer knew about it. www.theinq.net

Though I don't know the time frame when they found out... (certainly before the announcement of Apple switching to Intel procs).

yg17
Mar 22, 2007, 10:18 PM
Oversimplifing here:

1) OS X is comprised of several propritary layers on top of a (quasi) public domain OS: Unix

2) OS X uses the Mach kernal which many say is inferior in capacity/performance to a Linux kernal

3) Linux, like OS X is based on Unix & very similar, externally

4) The proprietary layers of OS X could be made to run on a Linux kernal as well as on the Mach kernal


To do this would:

-- Potentially improve OS X performance in high-performance environments

-- give Apple access to the large install base of Linux users (mainly servers)

-- bring a much-need consumer-friendly desktop GUI to Linux

--flesh out the Linux environment with drivers, features, applications, etc.

-- potentially exploit several markets: desktop, server, hand-held at a very opportune time
Believe me, I know all about how OSX is based on Unix and Unix is similar to Linux yada yada yada....

Lets say I'm a server admin. I have a bunch of servers running one of the many flavors of Linux with all open source software. I haven't paid a dime in licensing fees for software since it's all free. And it's working great.

So, I could spend thousands of dollars on OSX, a ton of time configuring and installing OSX, and then testing on non-production servers. Then, move those servers into production and risk having things break because its a new system. Too much time and money. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Besides, all OSX is going to provide is a pretty GUI, which is NOT what you need on a server. Servers don't run GUIs because they waste so many precious system resources, everything's done via command line. Since the core of the OS is almost identical to what you've been running, you won't gain anything.

Digitalclips
Mar 22, 2007, 10:29 PM
Believe me, I know all about how OSX is based on Unix and Unix is similar to Linux yada yada yada....

Lets say I'm a server admin. I have a bunch of servers running one of the many flavors of Linux with all open source software. I haven't paid a dime in licensing fees for software since it's all free. And it's working great.

So, I could spend thousands of dollars on OSX, a ton of time configuring and installing OSX, and then testing on non-production servers. Then, move those servers into production and risk having things break because its a new system. Too much time and money. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Besides, all OSX is going to provide is a pretty GUI, which is NOT what you need on a server. Servers don't run GUIs because they waste so many precious system resources, everything's done via command line. Since the core of the OS is almost identical to what you've been running, you won't gain anything.


All true but as a non Unix / Linux expert my servers all run OS X and I for one love the GUI interface and I paid for the licences in no time with client fees.

dicklacara
Mar 22, 2007, 10:39 PM
All true but as a non Unix / Linux expert my servers all run OS X and I for one love the GUI interface and I paid for the licences in no time with client fees.

Off the Record:

DigitalClips: I tried to send you a personal message but it was blocked!

Looked at your profile. I am also an Apple user since 07/1978.

Send me an email at dicklacara@mac.com.

Dick Applebaum

P.S. Interesting web site

AidenShaw
Mar 22, 2007, 10:40 PM
Another great thing is I can back up the whole pile of XP crap in a folder and replace it in seconds if it gets screwed up, try that on a PC. :p

It's very easy to do - copy the folder with the Windows virtual machine, and replace it if trouble occurs.

This has nothing to do with Windows vs OSX - it's a fundamental advantage to using virtualized environments in container files. If the virtual OS gets messed up, make a new copy from a backup of the container.

And "messed up" has nothing to do with OS shortcomings - if you want every student in a class to have the same starting point - give them each a copy of the container. Next period, a whole new set of containers for the next class.

sam10685
Mar 22, 2007, 10:44 PM
No flurry of developer seeds, I think we'll hear of it in April but see it in May.

i think that too.

CoreWeb
Mar 22, 2007, 10:51 PM
On the manner of supposed "internal builds" at Apple:

Apple almost certainly has internal builds. Nightly builds, even. Probably builds which happen every couple of hours, or constantly. So internal builds will happen, period.

Also, if I've read right, the same bugs appear to be in each of the seeds Apple has given out. These should have been easy enough for Apple to fix if they've wanted (they have a whole team working on Leopard, have they been out partying?), so really, we must wonder, why hasn't Apple fixed them?

I'm NOT saying that Leopard is simply missing key components... after all, such things may be too easy to trace. Though possible, I think two other possibilities more likely:

1. Apple has an internal fork of Leopard in which they've fixed most of the bugs which have been presented (not necessarily all) and actively watch for new bug reports, while simultaneously adding or completing new features. The problem here is that this internal fork has "secret" features, which if they were not careful about merging with the developer's preview, would leave traces pointing right to the features. Thus, they haven't merged very much at all. I consider this situation most likely.

2. Apple knows about the bugs, but doesn't care for the time being, considering them low-priority and easy-to-fix. Instead, Apple wants to work on implementing/completing other parts of the system. Once they are relaxing, congratulating themselves on a job well done, they will go back and fix those bugs which, while they may cause crashes, may be "technically" minor. I consider this less likely than #1 however, because personally as a programmer I have a hard time not fixing a bug when I see it.

EDIT: Since everyone's giving predictions: I'd say late April to early June sounds about right. Even the WWDC sounds about right. In fact, how about this: release date announced or extra features released at that NAB thing :) ... and the actual OS released at WWDC.

dr_lha
Mar 22, 2007, 11:01 PM
You don't run one on the other. They run independently. Sure, you could emulate and virtualize, but the performance is absolute crap.
You're talking crap. Have you actually used virtualization software like VMWare or Parallels? The performance speed is near native, you just need a lot of memory (which stands to reason, you're running two operating systems in memory). I run Parallels on my 2Gb RAM MacBook and the performance I get running Windows apps is exellent. Far from "absolute crap", I believe you are getting this impression from emulation, not running an OS in a virtual machine.

AidenShaw
Mar 22, 2007, 11:04 PM
EDIT: Since everyone's giving predictions: I'd say late April to early June sounds about right. Even the WWDC sounds about right. In fact, how about this: release date announced or extra features released at that NAB thing :) ... and the actual OS released at WWDC.

Another vote for this one.

Apple has to give the developers builds with the "secret" features, just to make sure that the secret sauce hasn't caused problems with base components that the developers are using.

Anyone who has worked with a software project knows that sometimes a change in subsystem "A" causes a problem in component "B" - even though the connection between the two is unknown.

yg17
Mar 22, 2007, 11:09 PM
You're talking crap. Have you actually used virtualization software like VMWare or Parallels? The performance speed is near native, you just need a lot of memory (which stands to reason, you're running two operating systems in memory). I run Parallels on my 2Gb RAM MacBook and the performance I get running Windows apps is exellent. Far from "absolute crap", I believe you are getting this impression from emulation, not running an OS in a virtual machine.

Well, if you read the thread, you'd see that I have used Parallels, but I only have 1 gig of RAM which I admit, is probably the problem. However, there's no way performance speed is native. If I'm giving 1 gig of RAM to the host OS, and 1 gig to the virtual OS, it's going to run worse than running the virtual OS on its own and it getting 2 gigs.

AidenShaw
Mar 22, 2007, 11:09 PM
you just need a lot of memory

He did say he had only 1 GiB...

I believe you are getting this impression from emulation, not running an OS in a virtual machine.

You mean "instruction set emulation" - the fact is that VMware, Parallels, Virtual PC and every other "Intel on Intel" virtualization product emulates a hardware PC for the virtual machine that differs from the actual physical PC (different network or graphics card, different memory size, ...).

Emulating an Intel PC on an Intel processor, of course, doesn't require emulation of all instructions - although many privileged instructions are in fact emulated in software (even on systems with Intel VT support).

dguisinger
Mar 22, 2007, 11:10 PM
I've had it up to here *draws line 50 ft above my head* with people who refuse to accept that Apple has two seperate code bases, one for external seeds and one for internal.

Why? Because Microsoft has done it; and Microsoft is ALOT less secret than Apple.

When did they do this? Travel back to 2001 when XP was coming out. The new UI (can't remember for sure, was it code named Luna?) was not introduced until RC1 if I remember correctly (I was an official beta tester).

RC1!! Thats late in the process. Luna was a major internals change for UI rendering, yet they specifically pulled it out of prior builds to keep people in the dark.

Now think about this: People are complaining about how slow the fixes are coming in the seeds for "known issues". Ever stop to think they are already fixed? Maybe the newer versions of libraries with those fixes are DEPENDANT on libraries they aren't willing to introduce yet. Apple wouldn't take the time to back-port a fix to a developer seed when they are focused on moving forward.

Recently I read an article about Windows's code check-in process....it took a month on average for simple UI change code to get checked into the official build of windows for changing shut down buttons....because it goes thru localized builds, then team builds, and then finally gets scheduled for a merge with the full system. You have no idea how many things are fixed or features are added to Leopard that haven't made it up the check-in chain of command.

So yes, its possible and likely.
:apple:

yg17
Mar 22, 2007, 11:17 PM
All true but as a non Unix / Linux expert my servers all run OS X and I for one love the GUI interface and I paid for the licences in no time with client fees.

OK, and that's fine. But if OSX was built on top of a Linux kernel, rather than a Unix kernel, you'd gain nothing. They're so similar, there would be absolutely no reason to do it.


And large companies with enterprise-grade systems (who OSX server is really marketed to), have system admins who can configure a server in command line with their hands tied behind their back and blindfolded, and would have no need for a GUI. And if they really did want an OSX GUI, then there's nothing wrong with the Darwin-based OSX we've always had

McGarvels
Mar 22, 2007, 11:19 PM
there is a massive difference between an active beta for a future product and a "plan b" version that might never see the light of day. there was no benefit to releasing an intel beta version of os x prior to apple decision to switch to the x86 platform. not to mention developers were given 9 months of beta testing with os x for intel.

it does a disservice to apple, the developers and the consumers to hold back some secret version of leopard. each build introduces new bugs, fixes others, deprecates some rare API; the whole purpose of a beta is to find those bugs. keeping this "secret version" back does nothing more than delay the eventual release.

this isn't really that tough, build frequency increases; release candidate released, gold master released; production; release. we haven't even seen the start of this process yet. leopard will not be out before may and i doubt we'll see it until june.

the way you make it sound, who knows if we'll even see it in June. I predict we see it next macworld. Leopard 2008!!! no joke. oh wait, that was a joke.

Wie Gehts
Mar 22, 2007, 11:26 PM
I'm still waiting for Rhapsody to run on my 8600! :mad: :eek:

dashiel
Mar 22, 2007, 11:29 PM
the way you make it sound, who knows if we'll even see it in June. I predict we see it next macworld. Leopard 2008!!! no joke. oh wait, that was a joke.

i honestly think it's a distinct possibility that leopard might be announced or go GM at WWDC and released later that month. apple has a history of missing ship dates. though they've been better of late :apple:tv was a reminder to those of us who've been around since the beginning.

arn
Mar 22, 2007, 11:29 PM
Sorry to be all lawyery(not a real word) but rumors are speculation so if you are not a fan of speculation go work for the Apple.com offcial website because only upon events happening does the speculation stop. Good Luck in you new line of work. Have fun.

Speculation = Roumor = Speculation

:D

I very much disagree... see the link posted

http://normalkid.com/2007/03/16/the-difference-between-rumor-and-speculation/

Rumor != Speculation

arn

PtMD
Mar 22, 2007, 11:34 PM
Besides, all OSX is going to provide is a pretty GUI, which is NOT what you need on a server. Servers don't run GUIs because they waste so many precious system resources, everything's done via command line. Since the core of the OS is almost identical to what you've been running, you won't gain anything.

:eek: Come on. Servers don't run GUIs and everything is done by command line? As someone who has gone through the pain of installing Oracle 10gR2 on Debian, I can tell you a GUI is mandatory.

bigwig
Mar 22, 2007, 11:40 PM
I don't care what finder looks like in 10.5 if they haven't fixed the .DS_Store rot (as in, remove the misbegotten feature and make directory views per-user not per-directory, stored in ~ so it's compatible with FileVault).

McGarvels
Mar 22, 2007, 11:41 PM
i honestly think it's a distinct possibility that leopard might be announced or go GM at WWDC and released later that month. apple has a history of missing ship dates. though they've been better of late :apple:tv was a reminder to those of us who've been around since the beginning.

:( That would be horrible. But again, as long as it's pretty bug free I guess I can stand the wait. Doesn't make me any happier though. lol

dashiel
Mar 22, 2007, 11:46 PM
I've had it up to here *draws line 50 ft above my head* with people who refuse to accept that Apple has two seperate code bases, one for external seeds and one for internal.

Why? Because Microsoft has done it; and Microsoft is ALOT less secret than Apple.

When did they do this? Travel back to 2001 when XP was coming out. The new UI (can't remember for sure, was it code named Luna?) was not introduced until RC1 if I remember correctly (I was an official beta tester).

RC1!! Thats late in the process. Luna was a major internals change for UI rendering, yet they specifically pulled it out of prior builds to keep people in the dark.

Now think about this: People are complaining about how slow the fixes are coming in the seeds for "known issues". Ever stop to think they are already fixed? Maybe the newer versions of libraries with those fixes are DEPENDANT on libraries they aren't willing to introduce yet. Apple wouldn't take the time to back-port a fix to a developer seed when they are focused on moving forward.

Recently I read an article about Windows's code check-in process....it took a month on average for simple UI change code to get checked into the official build of windows for changing shut down buttons....because it goes thru localized builds, then team builds, and then finally gets scheduled for a merge with the full system. You have no idea how many things are fixed or features are added to Leopard that haven't made it up the check-in chain of command.

So yes, its possible and likely.
:apple:


of course they have internal builds, but to expect the internal build has vastly different features than the seeded build is just nuts. there would be almost no point in having a beta cycle if apple engineers were working on a significantly advanced build. beta bug reports would be useless.

look i've been a beta tester for years on software you're probably using right now. i've been flown to corporate headquarters as early as the pre-alpha phase to advise on features and been around all the way through the release candidate phase where the companies would fedex me daily builds to install; if i said the software wasn't ready -- it didn't ship no matter what the ceo or marketing department had said (i wasn't the only one there were usually a dozen or so others).

when you change software, whether it's adding a new feature, fixing a big or removing something, that change cascades across the entire project. it is impossible for one engineer to anticipate how their change might affect the work of an entirely different department.

apple has the added responsibility of needing to appease developers as well, they cannot under any circumstance spring a release version of leopard on the public that breaks 3rd party apps. for one thing it's just bad practice, but apple really pissed off developers in the 90's, they can't afford to make the same mistake again.

bottom line, are there internal builds? yes, absolutely. do those internal builds have some new features? maybe. do they have a new UI? maybe. is the internal build at release quality stage? absolutely not.

if there are new features and a new ui, the only way apple will be able to keep it a secret is to follow the same formula they did with iphone. pre-announce the features, seed the new build to developers, then go through the beta, release candidate stage, gold master. the problem with that is the longer we don't hear anything means one of two things: 1) there aren't any top secret features or 2) the release date is going to be pushed back.

dguisinger
Mar 22, 2007, 11:53 PM
of course they have internal builds, but to expect the internal build has vastly different features than the seeded build is just nuts. there would be almost no point in having a beta cycle if apple engineers were working on a significantly advanced build. beta bug reports would be useless.

look i've been a beta tester for years on software you're probably using right now. i've been flown to corporate headquarters as early as the pre-alpha phase to advise on features and been around all the way through the release candidate phase where the companies would fedex me daily builds to install; if i said the software wasn't ready -- it didn't ship no matter what the ceo or marketing department had said (i wasn't the only one there were usually a dozen or so others).



I think you are wrong; having been a Microsoft beta tester, I know large features can be thrown in last minute. It happens, get over it. So what if it hasn't happened on the betas you've been on, it has in large products because companies do it to hold onto surprises. It generates PR. Large corporations don't care about bugs as much as they do free press. If they announce all their features early, the buzz will have died off.

The fact remains, apple can and most likely does have a internal build with major changes that seed users do not have. That is a fact of life. And I don't think Steve Jobs or Steve Balmer will decide not to ship because you fly over there and tell them not to. These guys have their own list of show stoppers; after that it goes to the first maintanance release.

Billy Boo Bob
Mar 23, 2007, 12:01 AM
I've always said that I wanted a stable release, but I didn't want to wait until June.

Even if they end up having to push it on until later, I'll be disappointed, but not mad. It still can't wind up being as bad as Vista's delay timetable.

I'm sure that on a per-capita basis (percentage of users of each OS) you'll find that the number of people who jump right into Leopard will be huge compared to adopters of Vista. And even those who actually wait for 10.5.1 for first round of bug fixes will probably be updating long before Vista's first service pack makes it out.

On the same per-capita scale I'm sure the total percentage of Leopard + Leopard .1 adopters will outpace Vista + Vista SP1 adopters, too, until enough new PC's are sold to overtake the numbers.

p0intblank
Mar 23, 2007, 12:05 AM
As much as I want Leopard, I can honestly wait. If it means making it more stable and working out bugs, then I am perfectly okay with waiting.

reckless_0001
Mar 23, 2007, 12:09 AM
The way I figure it. If they are going to update FCP at NAB. They have to reveal Leopard by then because it would most likely have 10.5 core animation technology in it. Not to mention the iMacs NEED an update SOON.

Forced Perfect
Mar 23, 2007, 12:19 AM
My guess.

Leopard will be out in a couple months. Plus/minus a month? Does it matter? Not really. Sure I want it today but I don't expect it to be out this month.

Leopard will have some bugs. It's just something that's going to happen. How many major releases of operating systems come with no bugs at all? I'm not too worried - just as long as it doesn't format my drive. :P It'll start to stabilize around 10.5.2. Like usual.

As for the "top secret" features. Yeah, I assume they're going to be somewhat neat, but probably nothing amazing (although I'll gladly eat my words). All this talk about there being a build of Leopard that's way ahead of the latest developer build. Unlikely. Simply because they want bug reports from people. My guess as to how it works? I bet the internal builds are the same (just a little further ahead) as the developer releases but with a optional install for the "top secret" stuff. Hey, it could be something that simple!


And Wie Gehts, Rhapsody works on 8600s already! :P

reckless_0001
Mar 23, 2007, 12:23 AM
All this talk about there being a build of Leopard that's way ahead of the latest developer build. Unlikely. Simply because they want bug reports from people. My guess as to how it works? I bet the internal builds are the same (just a little further ahead) as the developer releases but with a optional install for the "top secret" stuff. Hey, it could be something that simple!


How do you explain the "a" at the end of the latest build number?

bretm
Mar 23, 2007, 12:28 AM
if there are new features and a new ui, the only way apple will be able to keep it a secret is to follow the same formula they did with iphone. pre-announce the features, seed the new build to developers, then go through the beta, release candidate stage, gold master. the problem with that is the longer we don't hear anything means one of two things: 1) there aren't any top secret features or 2) the release date is going to be pushed back.


Jeez I hope one of the secret features is an automated shift key for your sake! :) Not once in your entire post did you even think about reachin for it.

reckless_0001
Mar 23, 2007, 12:36 AM
Jeez I hope one of the secret features is an automated shift key for your sake! :) Not once in your entire post did you even think about reachin for it.

:D LOL That was funny... :)

ppnkg
Mar 23, 2007, 12:44 AM
The developers do not need to be ready. Just like when they switched to Intel, the developers will need to follow...


Surely this is not good business practice....

Personally, I'm fine with tiger, I think it's for better than any other option that's available at the moment (as far as I am concerned). It doesn't make a difference for me whether apple releases it tomorrow, April June of September - I mean that I prefer Apple to release something that works 100% or as much close to that as possible.

On the other hand, after this long wait, apple needs to wow us with something that is 100% related to computers, not ipods and iphones.

sachamun
Mar 23, 2007, 12:47 AM
*waits for Top Secret Features*

I like what we have with Spotlight, Safari, and OS X Server. I still haven't seen anything worth calling TOP SECRET though. There's still more the Leopard then what we have.

Of course you haven't seen anything TOP SECRET...

Forced Perfect
Mar 23, 2007, 12:52 AM
How do you explain the "a" at the end of the latest build number?

Because they haven't moved to the "b" stage yet? I'm not sure what response you want from me about that one. :P I mean, it's not that far ahead yet. At least publicly.

MauiMac
Mar 23, 2007, 12:54 AM
On the other hand, after this long wait, apple needs to wow us with something that is 100% related to computers, not ipods and iphones.

Maybe an all new iMac design? I just bought an iMac so Apple should be coming out with a new one soon;) (Apple always comes out with a new version of the product I buy soon after I receive my item)... I hope iLife '07 and iWorks '07 is included with Leopard...

(I predict Leopard will be unveiled at the WWDC. (but I hope it comes out sooner))

MauiMac
Mar 23, 2007, 12:59 AM
Of course you haven't seen anything TOP SECRET...

The "TOP SECRET" features will probably not be as MIND BLOWING as some people might think... :eek:

mdntcallr
Mar 23, 2007, 01:02 AM
i understand that the update is coming soon. great.

but why no .mac or ilife update. this is getting annoying.

iMikeT
Mar 23, 2007, 01:13 AM
To me this is both good and bad.

The good: If Leopard does not ship until June, fine. The wait gives me more time to save up for the Mac Pro I have been eyeing to get. By the time I get it, it will be loaded with a final release of 10.5.

The bad: I have to wait. More like I have to wait until June to finally upgrade my current system. Oh well.

dguisinger
Mar 23, 2007, 01:35 AM
To me this is both good and bad.

The good: If Leopard does not ship until June, fine. The wait gives me more time to save up for the Mac Pro I have been eyeing to get. By the time I get it, it will be loaded with a final release of 10.5.

The bad: I have to wait. More like I have to wait until June to finally upgrade my current system. Oh well.

hmm
loaded with the final release, as in gold master.......or final release, as in last point release before 10.6? :p

koobcamuk
Mar 23, 2007, 02:05 AM
So if we see Leopard in April you will give me your iMac ?

Is it PPC or Intel ? :D

post number bookmarked

It's an iMac G5. I didn't say for free. It's 600 to you.

inkswamp
Mar 23, 2007, 02:17 AM
My guess at the timing of things.

I don't think new hardware and Leopard will wait until June, especially if Apple is going to maximize the publicity and not stretch customers' credit limits too far. Somehow, I can't see them dumping all this stuff on us in June. That seems crazy. :)

Because so much hardware is either overdue for updates or nearing it, I'm thinking there will likely be some Apple event in mid-April to unveil new machines along with a sneak peek at Leopard and its secret features. A release date for Leopard will be somewhere in late May or very early June.

WWDC and the iPhone afterward.

toxer
Mar 23, 2007, 02:24 AM
Why do we need Leopard anyway? Tiger works fine anyway. There are no noticeble new features. 'Top secret' features will most likely turn out to be a part of Steve Jobs' reality distortion field campaign.

koobcamuk
Mar 23, 2007, 02:57 AM
Why do we need Leopard anyway? Tiger works fine anyway. There are no noticeble new features. 'Top secret' features will most likely turn out to be a part of Steve Jobs' reality distortion field campaign.

We don't need it at all. We currently have one of the best OS out there.

Project
Mar 23, 2007, 03:12 AM
I've had it up to here *draws line 50 ft above my head* with people who refuse to accept that Apple has two seperate code bases, one for external seeds and one for internal.

Why? Because Microsoft has done it; and Microsoft is ALOT less secret than Apple.

When did they do this? Travel back to 2001 when XP was coming out. The new UI (can't remember for sure, was it code named Luna?) was not introduced until RC1 if I remember correctly (I was an official beta tester).

RC1!! Thats late in the process. Luna was a major internals change for UI rendering, yet they specifically pulled it out of prior builds to keep people in the dark.

Now think about this: People are complaining about how slow the fixes are coming in the seeds for "known issues". Ever stop to think they are already fixed? Maybe the newer versions of libraries with those fixes are DEPENDANT on libraries they aren't willing to introduce yet. Apple wouldn't take the time to back-port a fix to a developer seed when they are focused on moving forward.

Recently I read an article about Windows's code check-in process....it took a month on average for simple UI change code to get checked into the official build of windows for changing shut down buttons....because it goes thru localized builds, then team builds, and then finally gets scheduled for a merge with the full system. You have no idea how many things are fixed or features are added to Leopard that haven't made it up the check-in chain of command.

So yes, its possible and likely.

quoted for emphasis. a lot of ignorant talk in the thread, and mac rumors in general recently.

WCat
Mar 23, 2007, 03:15 AM
We don't need it at all. We currently have one of the best OS out there.

Amen, brother!!

Seriously though, I gotta laugh at the "why isn't it here yet?" questions. Apple said "spring." So it's been spring for, umm what, two days now?

Cheers,

WCat

MrTed
Mar 23, 2007, 04:03 AM
I'm sure Macpro release will be in april or late march. The question is: will apple decide to ship them with Leopard ? I think it would be commercialy more interesting to sell the new OS separately.

Esquare
Mar 23, 2007, 04:56 AM
Australian Site (http://www.apple.com/au/macosx/leopard/index.html) is first, US site (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) is second. Notice anything?
Yes, Aussies will get Leopard three months later than the rest of the world. ;)

jameshopkins
Mar 23, 2007, 05:13 AM
"I want a stable release! but at the same time I want it now!"

Bunch of babies

mark88
Mar 23, 2007, 05:36 AM
I do find it slightly amusing that when M$ delayed it's operating system they are branded "incompetent" and laughed at.

When Apple does it, people say "I hope they take their time and get it right".....

:rolleyes:

I'm kinda bored with Apple lately. Just nothing happening at all, no OS news for ages. No mac updates for ages either.

The mac pro was launched well over 6 months ago and remains the exact same price now as it did then. Let's even mention the mac mini.

jumpinjohn
Mar 23, 2007, 06:08 AM
I do find it slightly amusing that when M$ delayed it's operating system they are branded "incompetent" and laughed at.

When Apple does it, people say "I hope they take their time and get it right".....

:rolleyes:



I find it more amusing that when Apple says "Spring", people are branding them incompetent if it doesn't arrive the first day of Spring...

Roller
Mar 23, 2007, 06:32 AM
We know that the iPhone is due for a June release, and June marks the end of the announced time frame for Leopard. And, as much as I like my Mac Pro and Intel iMac, most of Apple's computers look pretty much like their non-Intel predecessors. It's not as if Apple is about to shock us with some new CPU, since everyone now knows the roadmap, so changes in the design are all they have left.

So, June could be the "perfect storm" of product introductions for Apple, although it's hard to believe that they'll do all of this at around the same time or at one event.

Poff
Mar 23, 2007, 06:53 AM
We know that the iPhone is due for a June release, and June marks the end of the announced time frame for Leopard. And, as much as I like my Mac Pro and Intel iMac, most of Apple's computers look pretty much like their non-Intel predecessors. It's not as if Apple is about to shock us with some new CPU, since everyone now knows the roadmap, so changes in the design are all they have left.

So, June could be the "perfect storm" of product introductions for Apple, although it's hard to believe that they'll do all of this at around the same time or at one event.

Why not? They've done stuff like that before.. :apple:

macinfojunkie
Mar 23, 2007, 07:04 AM
Mac User's web-site in the UK posts speculation that Leopard may be delayed until October due to additional work being required to make Boot camp fully compatible with Vista.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/macuser/news/108605/leopard-delayed-until-october-report.html

Hope this is not true. I would expect that they could release leopard with a final XP compatible version of Boot Camp and then add the Vista capabilites through a later update.

nanaky1982
Mar 23, 2007, 07:10 AM
Mac User's web-site in the UK posts speculation that Leopard may be delayed until October due to additional work being required to make Boot camp fully compatible with Vista.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/macuser/news/108605/leopard-delayed-until-october-report.html

Hope this is not true. I would expect that they could release leopard with a final XP compatible version of Boot Camp and then add the Vista capabilites through a later update.


What a fake... LOL

Stop being like babes, Apple said Spring, and Spring will be, and remember spring last till june 20th!!!

God you need a life...

BillyShears
Mar 23, 2007, 07:13 AM
"I want a stable release! but at the same time I want it now!"

Bunch of babies

It's not like that idea is impossible, it just means they need to work harder on it. Not that they aren't, but don't act like it's an illogical request.

Hombre
Mar 23, 2007, 07:25 AM
As I posted before there are 2 kinds of seeds.
One external and one internal.

Yeah, sure, like there have been two 4K78 builds, how could I forget about Apple's famous double build strategy! ;-)

mi5moav
Mar 23, 2007, 07:31 AM
The more I read everyones post, blog, and snpippet the more I see Apple waiting until releasing it June 17.

Stella
Mar 23, 2007, 07:32 AM
What a fake... LOL

Stop being like babes, Apple said Spring, and Spring will be, and remember spring last till june 20th!!!

God you need a life...

Apple have missed a lot of specified product release dates, such as aTV, Nanos and others.

The reason why Apple said "Spring" for 10.5 is because its such a wide window.

I'm sure there is functionality that was planned for 10.5 that will be MIA, just like there was in 10.4.

k2k koos
Mar 23, 2007, 08:04 AM
I have no problem waiting, after all, isn't Tiger great already? I know, I am eager to see what Leopard will offer (apart from the items we allready know).
I very much believe that the reported" buginess" of the current seeds of Leopard are partly to blame due to the absence of the "secret" items in these builds. Some references in the code to these features (which then are not executed because that part of code is missing) may cause the instability many developers experience.

I am allright with a Leopard release in June WWDC, as long as the bugs are ironed out, and we don't need a 10.5.1 or 10.5.2 update 14 days later....

As for the WWDC keynote, I hope it will end in a "one more thing", which hopefully is not an annoucement that iPhone is shipping, but rather some nice and exciting Mac hardware, and it would be nice if it was "4 more things", meaning a new iMac, uprated Mac mini's with core 2 duo's, new Mac Pro's, and new Macbook Pro's, and of course, new displays..... I can dream can't I ? :-)

peharri
Mar 23, 2007, 08:08 AM
Mac User's web-site in the UK posts speculation that Leopard may be delayed until October due to additional work being required to make Boot camp fully compatible with Vista.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/macuser/news/108605/leopard-delayed-until-october-report.html

Hope this is not true. I would expect that they could release leopard with a final XP compatible version of Boot Camp and then add the Vista capabilites through a later update.

Why would it take MONTHS to update a boot-loader and collection of off-the-shelf device drivers?

Apple may or may not delay Leopard, but it's certainly not going to be because it takes that long to make Bootcamp work with Leopard. For now though I think it's worth sticking to the "WWDC or shortly thereafter" release. If it's not then, then is it September when the French MacWorld thing is held?

Alpinism
Mar 23, 2007, 08:10 AM
at least offer a free UPGRADE COUPON to new system purchase !! damn :apple:

CoreWeb
Mar 23, 2007, 08:15 AM
I do find it slightly amusing that when M$ delayed it's operating system they are branded "incompetent" and laughed at.

When Apple does it, people say "I hope they take their time and get it right".....

:rolleyes:

I'm kinda bored with Apple lately. Just nothing happening at all, no OS news for ages. No mac updates for ages either.

The mac pro was launched well over 6 months ago and remains the exact same price now as it did then. Let's even mention the mac mini.

The situation is quite different, actually. Had Microsoft delayed Vista once, for a few months, I would not have called them incompetent. It was supposed to come out in 2003, after all. Well, they delayed it... they delayed it again... and they delayed it again... (I think they did four or five or maybe six times total!)

We are talking about Apple delaying ONCE to later this year. If Apple delays to 2008, I would be quite unhappy with them.

Of course, I still think Leopard will most likely come out in Spring...

And if Apple hasn't either already FIXED the bugs, or knows perfectly well how to fix them, why are they wasting their time on new screensavers!

pale9
Mar 23, 2007, 08:27 AM
I noticed a tiny thing the other day that will do nothing to swing the debate one way or the other, but take a a look at these two pictures taken from two different national Apple sites at the bottom of the Mac OS X tab along the top.

Australian Site (http://www.apple.com/au/macosx/leopard/index.html) is first, US site (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) is second. Notice anything?

i think this is the BEST giveaway that leopard will not be released until june. for those with bad eyes, the australian site says leopard will release mid 2007 and the u.s. site says spring 2007. as spring would only make sense on the northern hemisphere, my bet it that we will have to hold our breath at least 3 more months....

for those with extreme new OSX withdrawal symptoms, check out ubuntu 6.10 and the upcoming new version due out in april. i would say that with this release linux is finally primed for the big time. be sure to also install automatix2, which will download and install all the audio/video codecs that ubuntu can't legally include...

iSlicer
Mar 23, 2007, 08:43 AM
Come on, OS 10.5 will be released on May the 10th. It is obvious.:D

Chrispy
Mar 23, 2007, 08:43 AM
I commend Apple for at least making sure they come out with a stable release without sacrificing features. While I think Vista is an "OK" operating system, it could have been so much more had they not cut features to get it out the door. I think we will see a plethora of products hit in June/July. Santa Rosa, iPhone, and Leopard. Pair that with CS3 coming out the doors soon, and Apple is in a good position to make up some of the ground they recently lost to Vista.

akadmon
Mar 23, 2007, 09:02 AM
Come on, OS 10.5 will be released on May the 10th. It is obvious.:D

Except that this the the USA, and 10/5 is fifth of October:rolleyes:

CoreWeb
Mar 23, 2007, 09:04 AM
Come on, OS 10.5 will be released on May the 10th. It is obvious.:D
Whenever it comes out, I hope it doesn't come out July 21st. I'd have to wait until the next day at least to buy it. (And I didn't, shockingly, recognize the date 5/10 or 10/5 as 10.5 until I read it above... oops.)

I commend Apple for at least making sure they come out with a stable release without sacrificing features. While I think Vista is an "OK" operating system, it could have been so much more had they not cut features to get it out the door. I think we will see a plethora of products hit in June/July. Santa Rosa, iPhone, and Leopard. Pair that with CS3 coming out the doors soon, and Apple is in a good position to make up some of the ground they recently lost to Vista.
I think Apple probably has all the issues and the completion of the product under control (not necessarily finished). Their release date is probably targeted less by issues in the system itself (though it may enter into the equation) than by factors of when they WANT it to be released. Their marketing department is probably the driving force.

The state of current developer builds aren't really a good measure to go by. The developer builds are right now called "Developer Previews", which imply that they aren't real builds, only builds that have components needed for developers. Some developers (say, ones for Adobe) may be getting completely different builds. After all, ANYONE can get the Developer Previews if they pay only $500. Would Apple really let ANYONE look at their real next-generation operating system? What happened to all their secrets?

kcroy
Mar 23, 2007, 09:16 AM
*waits for Top Secret Features*

I like what we have with Spotlight, Safari, and OS X Server. I still haven't seen anything worth calling TOP SECRET though. There's still more the Leopard then what we have.

You heard it from me before, and I will say it again, (send me kudos when it is announced) Leopard will amazingly allow you to share your computer to your iPhone and Apple TV. You will be able to check email and surf on your TV in your living room, and you will be able to operate your computer from your phone. You will also be able to share all media content seemlessly between the three. Screen sharing on Apple TV and iPhone allows your computer to house the memory and power and simply uses the your television and iphone to mirror the screen. It's simply genius. Everyone will want all three and a .Mac account to boot. Also, it will be unveiled in June. This is why it's Top Secret.

a456
Mar 23, 2007, 09:22 AM
Except that this the the USA, and 10/5 is fifth of October:rolleyes:

Suits us you have it on the 5th October and we'll have it on the 10th May.:D

Porchland
Mar 23, 2007, 09:30 AM
You heard it from me before, and I will say it again, (send me kudos when it is announced) Leopard will amazingly allow you to share your computer to your iPhone and Apple TV. You will be able to check email and surf on your TV in your living room, and you will be able to operate your computer from your phone. You will also be able to share all media content seemlessly between the three. Screen sharing on Apple TV and iPhone allows your computer to house the memory and power and simply uses the your television and iphone to mirror the screen. It's simply genius. Everyone will want all three and a .Mac account to boot. Also, it will be unveiled in June. This is why it's Top Secret.

I definitely think there are bigger plans for :apple:tv. Consider:
* It's built for HD, but there's no Apple Store HD content yet. That will change very soon.
* :apple:tv can talk to directly to your router, but right now there's no way to buy content except from the computer. That'll change too.
* :apple:tv is in position to challenge cable/satellite outright, but there's no a cost-effective subscription plan or PPV movie plan yet. Surely, that's coming.

Throw in the iPhone and a brand new OS, and there are lots of possibilities.

AidenShaw
Mar 23, 2007, 09:39 AM
Leopard will amazingly allow you to share your computer to your iPhone and Apple TV. You will be able to check email and surf on your TV in your living room, and you will be able to operate your computer from your phone.

So amazing, in fact, that Windows Mobile phones have been able to do this for at least 4 years.

(Windows Mobile has a remote desktop client - so you can open the PC from the phone. Of course, Windows Mobile also has Internet Explorer and Outlook, so you don't need the PC to surf and check mail.)

CoreWeb
Mar 23, 2007, 09:55 AM
So amazing, in fact, that Windows Mobile phones have been able to do this for at least 4 years.

(Windows Mobile has a remote desktop client - so you can open the PC from the phone. Of course, Windows Mobile also has Internet Explorer and Outlook, so you don't need the PC to surf and check mail.)

Yeah, but Windows Mobile can't surf the web well. I've never used the Remote Desktop client, though, so I can't say anything on that front.

But here's what annoys me (and I'm not really talking about you so much as some others... including some friends of mine): some people will criticize Apple for doing what already is done elsewhere, but what they don't realize is that others cannot be counted as already doing what Apple does because Apple does it several times better. Devices like the iPod aren't the best because of what they CAN DO... it's how they do it.

Steve Jobs was right when he said most people do not use the address book on most phones - I don't have a phone, but some people I know (same people, in fact, who claim that their phone does what the iPhone does) don't bother using the address book as it is too difficult, and rely instead on their "recently called" list.

It isn't what the device CAN DO, it is HOW IT DOES IT.

Stella
Mar 23, 2007, 10:00 AM
You heard it from me before, and I will say it again, (send me kudos when it is announced) Leopard will amazingly allow you to share your computer to your iPhone and Apple TV. You will be able to check email and surf on your TV in your living room, and you will be able to operate your computer from your phone. You will also be able to share all media content seemlessly between the three. Screen sharing on Apple TV and iPhone allows your computer to house the memory and power and simply uses the your television and iphone to mirror the screen. It's simply genius. Everyone will want all three and a .Mac account to boot. Also, it will be unveiled in June. This is why it's Top Secret.

Since iPhone doesn't support 3G - sharing iPhone to computer is going to be SLOOOOW.

iPhone supports WIFI... but if I'm in range of my home WIFI, why wouldn't I just use my Mac in the first place?

There are plenty of solutions available for sharing existing phones to computers, as some one pointed out, there is microsoft remote client for pocketpc. There are VNC clients for other phones, such as Symbian.

If OSX 10.5 does allow sharing, you can bet it'll be based upon a opensource product like VNC - just like the Apple Remote desktop is.

Slumbercub
Mar 23, 2007, 10:00 AM
Mac User's web-site in the UK posts speculation that Leopard may be delayed until October due to additional work being required to make Boot camp fully compatible with Vista.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/macuser/news/108605/leopard-delayed-until-october-report.html

Hope this is not true. I would expect that they could release leopard with a final XP compatible version of Boot Camp and then add the Vista capabilites through a later update.

I am not fussed about any Windows support, why am I being discriminated against because some people want to run an inferior OS on their Macs? :p

johnee
Mar 23, 2007, 10:10 AM
I'm so sick of apple tv and iphone and ipods

I wish apple would stick with their "core" business : computers!

Stella
Mar 23, 2007, 10:11 AM
Its been my experience that people do use their addressbook ( but I do realise this is one person's experience ).

From what i've seen of the addressbook on the iPhone, its a UI nightmare, for example, you cannot search for a contact, you scroll down a big list, with an index on the right side of the screen. Horrid.

What people do not do is sync their addressbook <-> computer.

You are right, it is how a device can do it. However, the iPhone is over priced, IMO, for its capabilities. Other smartphones phones provide the same functionality at a suitable price.

Its the same reason why people buy a $300 PC instead of a $999 Mac. The $300 PC does everything that the user wants. Its a price <-> functionality trade off. In fact a $300 PC can almost certainly do pretty much everything that a $999 mac can do.




Steve Jobs was right when he said most people do not use the address book on most phones - I don't have a phone, but some people I know (same people, in fact, who claim that their phone does what the iPhone does) don't bother using the address book as it is too difficult, and rely instead on their "recently called" list.

It isn't what the device CAN DO, it is HOW IT DOES IT.

Stella
Mar 23, 2007, 10:12 AM
I'm so sick of apple tv and iphone and ipods

I wish apple would stick with their "core" business : computers!

But its not their core business any more. Remember they are no longer called "Apple Computer".

dashiel
Mar 23, 2007, 10:19 AM
I think you are wrong; having been a Microsoft beta tester, I know large features can be thrown in last minute. It happens, get over it. So what if it hasn't happened on the betas you've been on, it has in large products because companies do it to hold onto surprises. It generates PR. Large corporations don't care about bugs as much as they do free press. If they announce all their features early, the buzz will have died off.

The fact remains, apple can and most likely does have a internal build with major changes that seed users do not have. That is a fact of life. And I don't think Steve Jobs or Steve Balmer will decide not to ship because you fly over there and tell them not to. These guys have their own list of show stoppers; after that it goes to the first maintanance release.


how can something be a "fact" if it's "most likely". here's what i'll concede --

1) based on feedback from developers there are things about leopard in the current builds we don't know about, these things might be the top secret features or may very well lay the groundwork for them.

2) if there is some super secret build, with loads of top secret features lying around, leopard will not be shipping in june. if you've been a beta tester then you should know that inserting new features always introduces new and unexpected bugs and delays release.

by the way, you're wrong about when microsoft introduced luna. the new ui was released between beta 1 and beta 2 in february of 2001 which meant there were 8 months of beta testing with the new UI.

as for steve jobs and balmer not shipping because beta testers say no... why do you think :apple:tv was late? why do you think vista was late? because beta testers, whether internal or external said "we can't ship this, in this state."

milo
Mar 23, 2007, 10:24 AM
Why do we need Leopard anyway? Tiger works fine anyway. There are no noticeble new features. 'Top secret' features will most likely turn out to be a part of Steve Jobs' reality distortion field campaign.

I need it because the 64 bitness allows more than 4 gigs of ram use from a single app (and that's theoretical, in practice for Logic is more like 2-2.7). And yes, I run into that maximum in my daily work and will take advantage of the extra ram available.

I'd consider that a noticable new feature.

CoreWeb
Mar 23, 2007, 10:28 AM
Its the same reason why people buy a $300 PC instead of a $999 Mac. The $300 PC does everything that the user wants. Its a price <-> functionality trade off. In fact a $300 PC can almost certainly do pretty much everything that a $999 mac can do.

Actually, I think people tend to buy PCs instead of Macs less because of price (though that does enter into it) than because of Window's current market penetration.

In addition - you get what you pay for. I have an old Windows laptop, was very very cheap when it was bought (something like <$600)... and guess what? I press the start button, nothing happens for a full twenty seconds. So, does that do everything a Mac can do?

I'm don't think you can compare simply by "what it can do". It is how well it does it. A 60 MHz PC could do word processing, some form of web browsing, all with Windows 95! Even a 233 MHz machine can do most anything a Mac or Windows Vista machine can do! I can get a computer like that for $50! So, why doesn't everyone just do that?

johnee
Mar 23, 2007, 10:30 AM
But its not their core business any more. Remember they are no longer called "Apple Computer".

for some very strange reason, reading that just made me very sad.

shawnce
Mar 23, 2007, 10:34 AM
I'm so sick of apple tv and iphone and ipods

I wish apple would stick with their "core" business : computers!

I'm so sick of folks making this claim! :D

...look Apple has grown its engineering teams to match the breadth of products they now make. They have the resources to work on all these things in parallel.

Its not like Apple hasn't spent the last ~4 years working on technology that will become available in Leopard whose primary target is their Macintosh hardware. They aren't ignoring that aspect of their business.

If you look at what is currently available from Intel it is kinda of obvious ... so far nothing new is online in the volumes Apple needs to make changes to their product line (not even really for a speed bump). Sure Quad core Xeon have been available but they really aren't a compelling upgrade for desktop/workstation class systems just yet given clock-rate, limits of the current chipset, and limited (ok, generally non-existant) support for thread/core affinity in Mac OS X 10.4.

In the near future (Q2-Q4) new mobile chipsets, new Xeons, Leopard, etc. will become available that will make for compelling system upgrades. Actually many interesting hardware technologies will become available (or go mainstream) this year that should result in some nice systems from Apple (and others).

willybNL
Mar 23, 2007, 10:36 AM
http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20070322PD214.html


Apple reportedly to postpone Leopard to support Windows Vista
Hot systems
Ruby Huang, Taipei; Joseph Tsai, DigiTimes.com [Friday 23 March 2007]

Apple is expected to launch its next generation Leopard operating system (OS) in April, but according to industry sources, the release of the new OS will be postponed to October to allow Apple to make Leopard support Windows Vista through an integrated version of its Boot Camp software.

The sources pointed out that the launch delay is not due to software design problems with Leopard but instead is attributed to Apple's plan to have its new OS support Windows Vista through an integrated version of Boot Camp. Boot Camp is an Apple software application that currently assists in the installation of Windows XP on computers using Apple's latest OS. The company hopes with support for Vista, Mac computers using the new OS can grab more market share, according to the sources.

If Leopard supports only Windows XP, then the chances of the new OS attracting Windows users to buy an Apple computer decreases, stated industry observers, noting that with Vista support, Apple's chances of increasing its share of the PC market would increase.

shawnce
Mar 23, 2007, 10:37 AM
Why do we need Leopard anyway? Tiger works fine anyway. There are no noticeble new features. 'Top secret' features will most likely turn out to be a part of Steve Jobs' reality distortion field campaign.

Speaking as a Macintosh software developer Leopard makes available many new capabilities and technologies that will allow us developers to make better applications for you.

I don't think you understand all that Leopard has to offer.

CoreWeb
Mar 23, 2007, 10:40 AM
Speaking as a Macintosh software developer Leopard makes available many new capabilities and technologies that will allow us developers to make better applications for you.

I don't think you understand all that Leopard has to offer.

CoreAnimation is very, very exciting in my opinion. Maybe enough to make me start writing programs with GUIs again.

Dokter_Mac
Mar 23, 2007, 10:40 AM
of course they have internal builds, but to expect the internal build has vastly different features than the seeded build is just nuts. there would be almost no point in having a beta cycle if apple engineers were working on a significantly advanced build. beta bug reports would be useless.

look i've been a beta tester for years on software you're probably using right now. i've been flown to corporate headquarters as early as the pre-alpha phase to advise on features and been around all the way through the release candidate phase where the companies would fedex me daily builds to install; if i said the software wasn't ready -- it didn't ship no matter what the ceo or marketing department had said (i wasn't the only one there were usually a dozen or so others).

when you change software, whether it's adding a new feature, fixing a big or removing something, that change cascades across the entire project. it is impossible for one engineer to anticipate how their change might affect the work of an entirely different department.

apple has the added responsibility of needing to appease developers as well, they cannot under any circumstance spring a release version of leopard on the public that breaks 3rd party apps. for one thing it's just bad practice, but apple really pissed off developers in the 90's, they can't afford to make the same mistake again.

bottom line, are there internal builds? yes, absolutely. do those internal builds have some new features? maybe. do they have a new UI? maybe. is the internal build at release quality stage? absolutely not.

if there are new features and a new ui, the only way apple will be able to keep it a secret is to follow the same formula they did with iphone. pre-announce the features, seed the new build to developers, then go through the beta, release candidate stage, gold master. the problem with that is the longer we don't hear anything means one of two things: 1) there aren't any top secret features or 2) the release date is going to be pushed back.

I'm a also a betatester for many years now. Because of the NDA I can't say much about this. But one thing I can say is this: There is a game that is going to be released very soon and is still not working well on PPC (it has a memory leak) but it works great on Intel and they are going to release it!

Also, do not compare software/game with a majore OS release!

Regards

johnee
Mar 23, 2007, 10:41 AM
I'm so sick of folks making this claim! :D

Yeah, i know they have to grow their business, but I liked it when apple was computer centric and small. I feel that by reaching out to windows users, they are becoming, well big. I suppose I have a personal preference for small, tight nit communities, and apple's decisions show their vision is different than mine. nothing gold can stay....

twoodcc
Mar 23, 2007, 10:45 AM
Since iPhone doesn't support 3G - sharing iPhone to computer is going to be SLOOOOW.

iPhone supports WIFI... but if I'm in range of my home WIFI, why wouldn't I just use my Mac in the first place?


yes, but what if you're in range of someone else's WIFI? :D

Dokter_Mac
Mar 23, 2007, 10:50 AM
The "TOP SECRET" features will probably not be as MIND BLOWING as some people might think... :eek:

That's where you are wrong!
Anyone ask themselves why "Inputmanagers" will be locked in Leopard?
Think about it? Because it's a security issue (like in the past) and because it's a reason that could endanger the release from Leopard!
To bad for developers that are making use of it... They will have to be creative and think about it.
It's not the first time that a release from Apple is killing apps from developrs because Apple want to control something or give it for free.

andiwm2003
Mar 23, 2007, 10:55 AM
I'm so sick of folks making this claim! :D

...look Apple has grown its engineering teams to match the breadth of products they now make. They have the resources to work on all these things in parallel.

Its not like Apple hasn't spent the last ~4 years working on technology that will become available in Leopard whose primary target is their Macintosh hardware. They aren't ignoring that aspect of their business.

If you look at what is currently available from Intel it is kinda of obvious ... so far nothing new is online in the volumes Apple needs to make changes to their product line (not even really for a speed bump). Sure Quad core Xeon have been available but they really aren't a compelling upgrade for desktop/workstation class systems just yet given clock-rate, limits of the current chipset, and limited (ok, generally non-existant) support for thread/core affinity in Mac OS X 10.4.

In the near future (Q2-Q4) new mobile chipsets, new Xeons, Leopard, etc. will become available that will make for compelling system upgrades. Actually many interesting hardware technologies will become available (or go mainstream) this year that should result in some nice systems from Apple (and others).


apple could offer different new configurations of the MB/MBP line and iMacs (e.g. 7200rpm HDDs, higher clockspeed CPU's, 256mb GPU's in all MBP's, 2GB Ram standart, cheaper 3GB option, software bundles, black iMacs.....).

that would be small changes essentially just price drops. but would keep the models a bit fresher. and it would make you feel more comfortable to buy now because even if they update in 4 weeks you still would have gotten a upgraded system.

morespce54
Mar 23, 2007, 11:01 AM
Apple said June. Why is this a surprise to people?

Not everything at Apple is a magic trick.

-Clive

eh... no... is June in spring?
Well, it is (technically until June 21) but when they said "spring 2007" most of the peoples were thinking then meant *before* June... IMO

Dokter_Mac
Mar 23, 2007, 11:02 AM
Yeah, sure, like there have been two 4K78 builds, how could I forget about Apple's famous double build strategy! ;-)

Yeah, and you still believe that the Earth is flat ;)
Like there was never a Intel version of OS X before the big switch :D
Dream on... If you think that every developer seed from Leopard is the only developer build, then this is your naive opinion.

Dokter_Mac
Mar 23, 2007, 11:05 AM
You heard it from me before, and I will say it again, (send me kudos when it is announced) Leopard will amazingly allow you to share your computer to your iPhone and Apple TV. You will be able to check email and surf on your TV in your living room, and you will be able to operate your computer from your phone. You will also be able to share all media content seemlessly between the three. Screen sharing on Apple TV and iPhone allows your computer to house the memory and power and simply uses the your television and iphone to mirror the screen. It's simply genius. Everyone will want all three and a .Mac account to boot. Also, it will be unveiled in June. This is why it's Top Secret.

I agree! And the secret USB port on the :apple: TV is for a keyboard and mouse ;)

CoreWeb
Mar 23, 2007, 11:05 AM
of course they have internal builds, but to expect the internal build has vastly different features than the seeded build is just nuts. there would be almost no point in having a beta cycle if apple engineers were working on a significantly advanced build. beta bug reports would be useless.

look i've been a beta tester for years on software you're probably using right now. i've been flown to corporate headquarters as early as the pre-alpha phase to advise on features and been around all the way through the release candidate phase where the companies would fedex me daily builds to install; if i said the software wasn't ready -- it didn't ship no matter what the ceo or marketing department had said (i wasn't the only one there were usually a dozen or so others).

when you change software, whether it's adding a new feature, fixing a big or removing something, that change cascades across the entire project. it is impossible for one engineer to anticipate how their change might affect the work of an entirely different department.

apple has the added responsibility of needing to appease developers as well, they cannot under any circumstance spring a release version of leopard on the public that breaks 3rd party apps. for one thing it's just bad practice, but apple really pissed off developers in the 90's, they can't afford to make the same mistake again.

bottom line, are there internal builds? yes, absolutely. do those internal builds have some new features? maybe. do they have a new UI? maybe. is the internal build at release quality stage? absolutely not.

if there are new features and a new ui, the only way apple will be able to keep it a secret is to follow the same formula they did with iphone. pre-announce the features, seed the new build to developers, then go through the beta, release candidate stage, gold master. the problem with that is the longer we don't hear anything means one of two things: 1) there aren't any top secret features or 2) the release date is going to be pushed back.

I know perfectly well about how changing anything will cause problems. Small little improvements I've tried to make to my programs have often ended up crashing everything entirely.

But, the bugs I have seen mentioned so far look fairly simple. Why would Apple not be fixing them? Are they having that much trouble?

More likely, the "real" beta builds are being used by OTHER beta testers, not just anyone who pays $500 for an early start kit. Because right now, if anyone wants those seeds that developers are getting, they only need go to http://developer.apple.com/products/, drop $500, and start downloading seeds. Hardly secretive.

shawnce
Mar 23, 2007, 11:09 AM
(e.g. 7200rpm HDDs, higher clockspeed CPU's, 256mb GPU's in all MBP's, 2GB Ram standart, cheaper 3GB option, software bundles, black iMacs.....).

You can get 7200 rpm as a BTO for MBP already (iMac already has 7200 rpm drives).

The MBP are already using the fastest clocked Core 2 Duo mobile chips currently available. The MB wont get a bump likely until the MBP can get one. Again the Santa Rosa chip-set is when this will likely happen.

You can get RAM form 3rd party vendors for less then what Apple offers (at least for MBP, MB, iMac systems). Apple almost always charges more for RAM then you can get from a quality 3rd party vendor.

The iMac does have a little room (aka 0.16 GHz) to go up in clock-rate.

...but nothing really compelling.

Dokter_Mac
Mar 23, 2007, 11:10 AM
I'm so sick of apple tv and iphone and ipods

I wish apple would stick with their "core" business : computers!

Computers are not the core business of Apple anymore ;) That's why Apple Computer is changed into Apple Inc.

CJD2112
Mar 23, 2007, 11:14 AM
If the :apple: TV is any indication on how "great" OS X Leopard will be, I think we're all going to be very disappointed. Steve Jobs has a great way of talking things up ("top secret features" ??? ) for marketing, but I'm not expecting the next best thing. :(

wavelayer
Mar 23, 2007, 11:16 AM
I wouldn't switch over right away anyway. Tiger will be on my plate for many months to come. I personally don't like bugs very much. Of course, eventually I'll take the leap:apple: .

Dokter_Mac
Mar 23, 2007, 11:19 AM
If the :apple: TV is any indication on how "great" OS X Leopard will be, I think we're all going to be very disappointed. Steve Jobs has a great way of talking things up ("top secret features" ??? ) for marketing, but I'm not expecting the next best thing. :(

Steve is a man with a vision. When Apple released the first iPod it was just a MP3 player. Nobody had ever thought about the big picture and why the iPod was invented. The same can happen with the :apple: TV.

CoreWeb
Mar 23, 2007, 11:29 AM
Steve is a man with a vision. When Apple released the first iPod it was just a MP3 player. Nobody had ever thought about the big picture and why the iPod was invented. The same can happen with the :apple: TV.

Agreed... Though I am not a marketing expert, from what I can tell the AppleTV as it stands at the moment does not make good marketing sense. Why did they add digital audio out and WHY DO THEY ALLOW 720p content if there IS NO 720p content? Unless, of course, they are going to put 720p content on iTunes.

If they get all the studios on iTunes, at 720p... and do not raise prices... well, let's just say that AppleTV is about 20+x as useful as it is now (which I still think it is useful, but more of a niche product - ie, like the AirPort Express)

killmoms
Mar 23, 2007, 11:33 AM
In case you don't know, the Apple TV has already been "hacked" to play XviD content. No word on whether it can play 720p XviD.

elron
Mar 23, 2007, 11:34 AM
I do find it slightly amusing that when M$ delayed it's operating system they are branded "incompetent" and laughed at.

When Apple does it, people say "I hope they take their time and get it right".....

:rolleyes: It's rare to see a software product that isn't delayed by at least a few months. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it doesn't make a company incompetent. Microsoft missed their target date by years.

Stella
Mar 23, 2007, 11:39 AM
I love the title of this thread
"Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard - Still Waiting"

*Still Waiting*?!!!

Spring is what, 3 days old.

"Shipping in Spring", Apple said.
No surprise, it didn't come out at 8.30pm(?) when Spring offically began.

CoreWeb
Mar 23, 2007, 11:40 AM
It's rare to see a software product that isn't delayed by at least a few months. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it doesn't make a company incompetent. Microsoft missed their target date by years.

Yes, several. And Apple hasn't even officially delayed any as of yet.

CoreWeb
Mar 23, 2007, 11:41 AM
I love the title of this thread
"Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard - Still Waiting"

*Still Waiting*?!!!

Spring is what, 3 days old.

"Shipping in Spring", Apple said.
No surprise, it didn't come out at 8.30pm(?) when Spring offically began.

Exactly my sentiments. Some people do seem to think it should have come out on Wednesday, midnight.

We should request that the thread title be changed.

Dokter_Mac
Mar 23, 2007, 12:05 PM
How do you know all this? Are you just guessing or do you know this for certain?


The first question i can't answer (NDA/source-protection). (Yeah, I know it's easy to hide after NDA and source-protection, but it's a fact.)
The second one: "I'm certain about this!"

PS:I was going to send this private to you but it's not possible.

reckless_0001
Mar 23, 2007, 12:15 PM
I love the title of this thread
"Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard - Still Waiting"

*Still Waiting*?!!!

Spring is what, 3 days old.

"Shipping in Spring", Apple said.
No surprise, it didn't come out at 8.30pm(?) when Spring offically began.

I believe, it means. "Still waiting" for information, top secrets features and a shipping date. It can be misleading to think, hmm, "Still waiting" for it to ship.

Stella
Mar 23, 2007, 12:29 PM
The first question i can't answer (NDA/source-protection). (Yeah, I know it's easy to hide after NDA and source-protection, but it's a fact.)
The second one: "I'm certain about this!"

PS:I was going to send this private to you but it's not possible.

If you were under an NDA, you wouldn't be able to confirm that you were to start with. Thats how a lot of NDAs work, and I doubt that Apple would be any different, considering how seriously they take their secrecy.

lazyrighteye
Mar 23, 2007, 12:50 PM
for some very strange reason, reading that just made me very sad.

Cheer up johnee. These are just growing pains you are feeling (nothing more, nothing less). Which is a combination of understandable, healthy and good.

I suggest that Apple is sitting pretty: exactly where they want to be in the grand scheme of things. While there are certainly more clues as time passes, most readers here (myself included) have relatively little idea what that 'grand scheme' actually is or will be. Which is part of the fun of these forums, right? I mean, this is fun, yes?

Dropping 'computer' form the name does not mean their dropping 'computer' from the equation. Quite the contrary. Don't be fooled by those (whom I am fairly certain have never worked for Apple) who would like you/us to believe that Apple is loosing focus on said 'computer.' While I too do not work for Apple, I do understand the concept of innovation. And no innovation happens if Apple focuses on what they had focused on for the first 25 years. And no innovation means no Apple. And no Apple means... ugh, I don't even want to think about what that might mean. Innovation requires guts, forward thinking and a constant drive to elevate (in this case, simplify) the user experience. And that is exactly what Apple is, and has always been, doing.

Sure, there are several new areas of focus in Apple that weren't there 10 years ago (again, innovation). But guess what? They have more people in place to address these new avenues. It's not like the same X amount of people that were focused on operating systems are now ALSO focusing on iPhones, iPods, :apple: TVs, etc. Nope, there are entirely new teams of qualified people addressing 'new business.' This is a good thing for Apple and, in the end, a good thing for the user.

The crux of the biscuit has (and always will be) the OS. It is the central, linking element between computer, phones, TVs, toasters, etc. The lines between computers and home entertainment is blurring everyday. Apple's OS is their distinguishing advantage over MS and any other players out there. And in time, we will see a changing of the guard.

In my mind, Apple's strategy is both calculated and brilliant, if not their only option (ha!). MS clearly has a lock on the office. And with most people spending more time in an office environment than a home environment, that would seem like a solid position. And it is. But also consider at least 1/2 (my personal social observation) of those very same people HATE their jobs and office environments and you can begin to see an opportunity. There needs to be a ying to that yang and Apple could very well be that ying.

{Recap: office and, subconsciously, MS associated with bad. Why not home and Apple associated with good?
Hmmm...}

We can all agree that trying to take the office from MS is futile. They're way too established, way too many factors involved for that approach. But the home is wide open. Like the wild west, everyone is scrambling to secure a piece of the pie. And Apple are positioning themselves to be what MS is to the office. Say what you will about the iPod but it represents Apple's clear and intentional move to slowly, systematically, one by one, eventually take down the dominance of MS. And how smart... focus on an individual basis, get an individual user hooked on your product (iPod). Then grow that to their home experience (iLife, iMacs, etc.). Once that takes hold and people become accustomed to Apple's greatest asset (integration, based largely on the OS), they will then expect/demand the same in their office environments.

Yes. It's a theory with (obviously) several incredibly debatable points. Just reminding some that there may be bigger ideas at play here than what he daily, seemingly minuscule 'rumors' might suggest.

Bigger picture.

dashiel
Mar 23, 2007, 01:06 PM
I'm a also a betatester for many years now. Because of the NDA I can't say much about this. But one thing I can say is this: There is a game that is going to be released very soon and is still not working well on PPC (it has a memory leak) but it works great on Intel and they are going to release it!

Also, do not compare software/game with a majore OS release!

Regards

wait so you're telling me i'm wrong because of a game your beta testing, then you tell me not to compare a game/application to an OS release. why not hover over this word -> contradiction <- with your mouse, while holding down the apple and control key.

Dokter_Mac
Mar 23, 2007, 01:07 PM
If you were under an NDA, you wouldn't be able to confirm that you were to start with. Thats how a lot of NDAs work, and I doubt that Apple would be any different, considering how seriously they take their secrecy.

I'm not under an Apple NDA! My source is under Apple NDA!
Believe me, I know as a betatester, how NDA's work. Not one NDA is the same, they are all different.
I'm under other NDA's from other companys. Which I'm not going to tell you guys about. That would be stupid! It's the same like shooting in my own foot. It's hard enough working under different aliases and not loosing my work as a tester! Just for keeping you guys informed how things work.
Maybe it's better I'm just keeping my mouth in the future!

Dokter_Mac
Mar 23, 2007, 01:15 PM
wait so you're telling me i'm wrong because of a game your beta testing, then you tell me not to compare a game/application to an OS release. why not hover over this word -> contradiction <- with your mouse, while holding down the apple and control key.

It's about you claiming that you can hold a release! If it's not blessed by you, they (managment and others) will not release it. That's *********!
Nothing else ;)

And yes do not compare your work as a betatester, claiming you can hold a release from software, with a release from an Apple OS.

Apple is working very different and the only people that can hold a release are very few! And for sure not a betatester or a external developer ;)

BillyShears
Mar 23, 2007, 01:22 PM
I'm so sick of apple tv and iphone and ipods

I wish apple would stick with their "core" business : computers!

Look at the buyer's guide. (http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/) Releases are more frequent in recent years.

Dokter_Mac
Mar 23, 2007, 01:23 PM
wait so you're telling me i'm wrong because of a game your beta testing
I'm testing more then 6 games and 2 programs for the moment. I'm working for 4 company's. And NO not for Apple! But some testers I know are testing for Apple. It's a small world you know. I wonder why I'm not knowing you :D

gctwnl
Mar 23, 2007, 01:47 PM
I really don't understand why people wait until Leopard is shipping to get a new Mac. Why? I'd rather buy my own standalone copy of Leopard. Then if I get rid of that Mac, I still have my own copy with me and not some proprietary version that only works with the Mac it shipped on. Plus, what if you don't like Leopard for whatever reason? You're stuck using it and can't go back to Tiger because you can't use an OS lesser than what it shipped with. Don't let a software update hold you back. Go out and buy the darn Mac if you're going to buy it. You're not always going to have the latest and greatest.

Unless one is planning to buy Leopard Server...

gctwnl
Mar 23, 2007, 01:54 PM
Computers are not the core business of Apple anymore ;) That's why Apple Computer is changed into Apple Inc.
Apple is still a computer company. iPod, Apple TV, iPhone are just specialized computers.:rolleyes: And apart from iPod, they all run Mac OS X in some form or another.

dashiel
Mar 23, 2007, 01:54 PM
I know perfectly well about how changing anything will cause problems. Small little improvements I've tried to make to my programs have often ended up crashing everything entirely.

But, the bugs I have seen mentioned so far look fairly simple. Why would Apple not be fixing them? Are they having that much trouble?

More likely, the "real" beta builds are being used by OTHER beta testers, not just anyone who pays $500 for an early start kit. Because right now, if anyone wants those seeds that developers are getting, they only need go to http://developer.apple.com/products/, drop $500, and start downloading seeds. Hardly secretive.

i can't begin to imagine the QA overhead required in supporting 4 active branches of leopard (ppc developer, intel developer, ppc "real", intel "real"). from a purely project management point of view that's just not a smart move on apple's part. i want to reiterate i'm not saying that there aren't internal builds at apple, there have to be. i just don't think those internal builds are somehow vastly superior to what developers have in their hands...

you know every OS X release this happens. people start getting their hopes up, whether it's snapiness in 10.0, 10.1 and 10.2, secret unannounced features in 10.3, 10.4 and now 10.5 or imminent release due to a secret build in cupertino 10.4 and 10.5. every time, every single time it turns out to be untrue. rumors and conspiracy theorists talk about build numbers, optimizing code and how the "real" gold master was actually a build that never went to developers and it will be snappier/have more feature/be coming out next week. every time, every single time this has proven wrong. there were no new features in 10.3/10.4; 10.0 10.1 and 10.2 had identical checksum values as the final developer candidate and there were no big post-devbuild increases snapiness.

then these forums turn in to a big bitch session about how people feel ripped off that apple didn't do make it faster, or include some mythical feature that some random blogger said "they saw". i mean you can already see people getting annoyed that leopard isn't out yet based on nothing more than spurious internet speculation.

this time of course jobs stirred the pot with his top secret slide at MWSF, if in this instance they don't deliver at least people will have some justification in being annoyed.

my take is all the "new" features are going to actually be related almost entirely to apple's software lineup: ilife, iwork, final cut, etc... and their new hardware devices :apple:tv and iphone. i think all the apps will have been written to take advantage of core animation, core audio, core video, time machine, 64 bit, etc... the new "features" will be more about integration than things like dashboard. i do think there's an outside chance we'll see a refreshed UI that matches more closely the look of iphone.


i would also saythis list (http://news.worldofapple.com/archives/2007/03/02/build-9a377a-of-leopard-reaches-adc-members/) of known issues is far from "pretty simple". just some of the more critical bugs to fix:


upgrades from previous leopard installs don't work
sometimes users can't backup their system during install
users may not be able to enable time machine when connection a drive
dragging files from network to local may fail
volumes may not show up in the sidebar in some situations
when adding a shared folder, is may not be created
some powerbook g4s panic when waking from sleep


the scary thing about that subset of bugs isn't the severity of them it's the usage of the word "may" or "sometimes". if you develop software then you know those are the worst kinds of bugs because it means they don't know why they happen and the steps to reproduce the bug are unknown.

i have no doubt that many of those bugs might already be fixed, it is nearly three weeks since that build was released

dashiel
Mar 23, 2007, 02:06 PM
It's about you claiming that you can hold a release! If it's not blessed by you, they (managment and others) will not release it. That's *********!
Nothing else ;)

And yes do not compare your work as a betatester, claiming you can hold a release from software, with a release from an Apple OS.

Apple is working very different and the only people that can hold a release are very few! And for sure not a betatester or a external developer ;)


you are right beta testers cannot hold up a release, however at the close of the beta the top bug reporters usually get invited to the release candidate stage. release candidate testers on the projects i have worked on represent less than 1% of the beta test group and probably 10% of the alpha test group.

in general, i receive a new build fedexed to me two to three times a week. i have an engineer assigned to me and we have twice daily talks to discuss build quality, old bugs, new bugs, etc... part of the process is a ship/don't ship vote. sometimes it's a binary decision, pass/fail, sometimes it's a grading system (a-f or 1-10). they can't ship until the release candidate group says it's ready. there is usually another few days after they get the ok from their release candidate testers before a GM is declared. i believe, but don't know for sure, that internally the engineers, QA, etc... have to give their grades and if they're still not happy after the rc group give it's okay then they keep at it.

does apple do this? i have no idea, but they'd be awfully negligent if they didn't adopt a similar policy.

gctwnl
Mar 23, 2007, 02:07 PM
The Inquirer knew about it. www.theinq.net

Though I don't know the time frame when they found out... (certainly before the announcement of Apple switching to Intel procs).
It was not something so unexpected. NeXTSTEP (which they acquired as the basis for Mac OS X) shipped for 4 different architectures (m68k, hppa, sparc, x86), OPENSTEP shipped for 3 (m68k, sparc, x86) and it was known that the stuff also ran in the labs on PowerPC and m88k and possibly MIPS and Alpha. Then 'universal' binaries were called 'fat' binaries.

Rhapsody (Mac OS X precursor) *shipped* both for Macs and Intel machines.

Most of the hard stuff (making a lot of things architecture-independent, think for example byte-order in an architecture little-endian of big-endian) had already been done by NeXT in 1993-1994. Something Microsoft was apparantly never able to do. The HP PA-RISC architecture even came with a switch to turn the hardware from big-endian to little-endian just so that Windows NT and offspring would run on it.

Wie Gehts
Mar 23, 2007, 02:11 PM
I'm still using a 7600 and an 8600. I was going to buy a Macbook Pro. I was all set to pick up the phone to a dealer and buy it but when I went to the bathroom I took the sunday paper with me and happen to read my horoscope.

It said that any major financial purchases will be cause for internal conflict. My curiosity piqued, I researched online. I found out mercury was in retrograde....that had an effect on electronic devices not working. Then I read that something to do with finances was going to make me sit up and take notice.... then later that night I find out the stock market dropped 400 points. I never really paid attention to horoscopes but this weirded me out and I didn't buy it. I didn't want to tempt fate and get a lemon.

So now it makes sense to wait for the next Macbook Pro upgrade because its due soon. I'm going to get it whether or not they're tied in with leopard.

As far as I'm concerned, this leopard is just another update to OSX. As long as my applications and devices work, I'm happy. Whatever it is these OS's do, I'm sure they do a million things that I haven't the slightest idea that they even do them. Oh well....

Dokter_Mac
Mar 23, 2007, 02:23 PM
you are right beta testers cannot hold up a release, however at the close of the beta the top bug reporters usually get invited to the release candidate stage. release candidate testers on the projects i have worked on represent less than 1% of the beta test group and probably 10% of the alpha test group.

in general, i receive a new build fedexed to me two to three times a week. i have an engineer assigned to me and we have twice daily talks to discuss build quality, old bugs, new bugs, etc... part of the process is a ship/don't ship vote. sometimes it's a binary decision, pass/fail, sometimes it's a grading system (a-f or 1-10). they can't ship until the release candidate group says it's ready. there is usually another few days after they get the ok from their release candidate testers before a GM is declared. i believe, but don't know for sure, that internally the engineers, QA, etc... have to give their grades and if they're still not happy after the rc group give it's okay then they keep at it.

does apple do this? i have no idea, but they'd be awfully negligent if they didn't adopt a similar policy.
We are working with "Mantis" (bug tracker). We have a personal FTP-server @ high speed and we always have a team of engineers, artists and others. Most of us have a chance testing a RC ;)
The only "persons" deciding when software is ready to be released, in my experiance, is the company self. Even not a select group of loyal and skilled testers.
And yes, I'm working/testing for big names.

If we need to test Multiplayer, we just use iChat and Mail to organise us.

No Fedex here ;) GM ,RC and beta's are seeded true FTP. Much faster...

CoreWeb
Mar 23, 2007, 02:24 PM
i would also saythis list (http://news.worldofapple.com/archives/2007/03/02/build-9a377a-of-leopard-reaches-adc-members/) of known issues is far from "pretty simple". just some of the more critical bugs to fix:


upgrades from previous leopard installs don't work
sometimes users can't backup their system during install
users may not be able to enable time machine when connection a drive
dragging files from network to local may fail
volumes may not show up in the sidebar in some situations
when adding a shared folder, is may not be created
some powerbook g4s panic when waking from sleep


the scary thing about that subset of bugs isn't the severity of them it's the usage of the word "may" or "sometimes". if you develop software then you know those are the worst kinds of bugs because it means they don't know why they happen and the steps to reproduce the bug are unknown.

i have no doubt that many of those bugs might already be fixed, it is nearly three weeks since that build was released

I do know that those are the worst kind of bugs TO FIND. However, they are not the worst kind of bugs TO FIX. To find these kind of bugs requires watching where things could be going wrong, or, optionally, to simply go back to a version where the bug did not exist and then see what has changed (if you have a source control management system). Sometimes, the latter is too complicated, though.

However, once you have FOUND the bug, it is often nowhere near as difficult to fix, unless fixing the bug requires architecture changes or (uh-oh) rewriting many components.

Consider that, perhaps, if Apple already knows about the bugs, they already know what is causing them... so fixing them may take a relatively short amount of time.

As for specific bugs on that list:
Previous Leopard installs - since the users who will be buying the REAL Leopard won't have a previous install, this won't matter. Previous tiger installs would.

Backup system - There is a reason, probably relatively simple (not accounting for something in the original system)

Dragging files over network - if they watch it fail, they could probably find out exactly what is going on there. The most likely reason this would break, anyway, is if they changed networking code or Finder's drag-and-drop code

volumes may not show up in the sidebar in some situations - the "some situations" makes it sound like Apple knows what kind of situations. If Apple can make it happen in their own labs, then they can see why it isn't showing up.

some powerbook g4s panic when waking from sleep - this could potentially be difficult for them to solve. But, during panics, crash logs are created, so they will have SOME clue of what is going on.


But the point, is not that it will be easy to solve these bugs, but that the bugs are most likely not (for Apple) deciding the release date. Apple probably has bugs and completion of the product under control, and no delays should be needed FOR CODING REASONS. However, they may delay for marketing, etc.


Also, you mentioned that having so many branches could make it difficult for Apple? Perhaps that's why it has been three weeks since the last update to the $500 build...