It's just so creepy

[miloblithe]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322/ts_alt_afp/afplifestyleussexchastity_070322082138


It has all the ingredients of a wedding. The proud tuxedo-clad father, the frosted white cake, the limousines and an exchange of vows.
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But there is no groom and the girl in the long gown is no bride. She's daddy's little girl, there to take a vow of chastity.

In what is becoming a trend among conservative Christians in the United States, girls as young as nine are pledging to their fathers to remain virgins until they wed, in elaborate ceremonies dubbed "Purity Balls."

The gala affairs are intended to celebrate the father-daughter relationship.

The highlight is when the fathers and daughters exchange vows, with dad signing a covenant to protect his daughter's chastity by living an unblemished life and the daughter promising not to have sex until marriage.

Many fathers at the ceremonies also slip "purity rings" around the finger of their misty-eyed daughters or offer them "chastity bracelets" and other jewelry that the girls can entrust to their husbands on their wedding night.

The big problem of course is that a purity pledge is meaningless crap:

But critics say that while teaching abstinence to children may be laudable, it is just as essential to make them aware of sexually transmitted diseases and condom use.

They also point to studies showing that the majority of adolescents who take purity pledges break them within a few years, often by engaging in risky and unprotected sex.

One study conducted by researchers at the universities of Columbia and Yale found that 88 percent of pledgers wind up having sex before marriage.

"Unfortunately these young people tend, once they start to have sex, to have more partners in a shorter period of time and to use contraception much less than their non-pledging peers," said Debra Hauser, executive vice president at Advocates for Youth, a Washington-based non-profit organization.

"Teens may pledge with the best of intention... and then as they break their pledges they are so shamed and embarrassed that it's unlikely they will go for help."

The creepiness is just an added bonus.

[bartelby]

How long before chastity belts become fashionable again?

[trebblekicked]

beavis: heh heh
butthead: heh heh heh. chastity balls.
beavies: heh heh heh
butthead: heh heh heh

[Blue Velvet]

Very creepy... how long before dowries make a return? Nothing like being a chattel to keep you in your place.

Where are all the young men making chastity vows? Or have they got a Biblically-ordained opt-out to sow their wild oats?

[Osarkon]

Where are all the young men making chastity vows? Or have they got a Biblically-ordained opt-out to sow their wild oats?

Heh. Probably. Man is favourite in the Bible after all.

[someguy]

All I see is a group of overly religious fanatic fathers convincing their little girls to go a step further than promising not to do something they have little or no interest in (or knowledge of) at that age anyhow. Possibly so with idea that a few or several years down the road, a sense of guilt will become associated with giving in to such natur- *ahem* excuse me, satanic urges. :rolleyes:

What happened to teaching your children morals and values and allowing them to make their own decisions based on what you've taught them?

Where are all the young men making chastity vows?
Surprisingly, the church saw something wrong with a father and son exchanging vows. :eek: :D ;)

[zimv20]

The highlight is when the fathers and daughters exchange vows
ew.

[bartelby]

What happened to teaching your children morals and values and allowing them to make their own decisions based on what you've taught them?

Loony over zealous religious types happened!

[Deepdale]

A recent "Nightline" had a segment about the Purity Balls and the word creepy does it justice. Breaking the pledges, however, will not have anywhere near the dreadful consequences that ensued which led to many other young women being sent against their will to the Magdalene asylums in Ireland for having had a child out-of-wedlock, and even mildly flirtatious behavior or entertaining the notion of being with a young man.

Two weeks ago I watched an unsettling, but well done movie entitled "The Magdalene Sisters." It is a stunning revelation of what those women were put through as they were under the control of the Catholic church.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/sep2003/madg-s01.shtml

[dornoforpyros]

Creepy and pointless, this is like making 9 year olds promise to never do drugs.

I mean I remember at 8 or 9 buying into the propaganda we were being fed "I'll NEVER do drugs, I promise!" without even understanding the issue. It was just something to say that made the teachers happy to hear.

[Kalns]

I don't see anything wrong with it.

[skunk]

Purity bollocks.

[Thomas Veil]

Creepy is the right word for this. The intention is brainwashing, and the ceremony strikes me as mildly incestuous.

And how does the father "protect his daughter's chastity", anyway? Shotgun??

[PlaceofDis]

creepy, and in my opinion its pointless and does more harm than good in the long run for most of these people.

[bartelby]

I don't see anything wrong with it.

Really?

Creepy is the right word for this. The intention is brainwashing, and the ceremony strikes me as mildly incestuous.


That's what I thought too...

[Kalns]

It's a celebration of the bond between father and daughter, and an expression of faith. I've never heard of actually having a ball, but I know many girls whose fathers gave them rings. Similarly, when Christian boys come of age it's not uncommon to give them a sword as a symbolic gesture.

[ChrisWB]

I don't see anything wrong with it.
What if the daughter decides she doesn't want to marry?

[bartelby]

It's a celebration of the bond between father and daughter, and an expression of faith.

But that's the point. It's not.

Getting dressed up and shoving a chastity ring on a 9 year old girl's finger has got sod all to do with parental bonding.

[skunk]

It's a celebration of the bond between father and daughter, and an expression of faith. I've never heard of actually having a ball, but I know many girls whose fathers gave them rings. Similarly, when Christian boys come of age it's not uncommon to give them a sword as a symbolic gesture.Oh, how apt! The sword and the ring! What kind of a sick, mediaeval fantasy land are you living in?

[Kalns]

Did you happen to notice the part that said only 1,400 of these balls have occurred nationwide in the past year? The ring will stick around, the ball is just a fad. By the way, the girls I know who have the rings had them given to them around 14 years old.

[bartelby]

Did you happen to notice the part that said only 1,400 of these balls have occurred nationwide in the past year? The ring will stick around, the ball is just a fad. By the way, the girls I know who have the rings had them given to them around 14 years old.

It's not the balls, rings or swords:rolleyes:
It's the whole indoctrination and forcing ideals on to impressionable minds.

Why not teach children to be good and polite and such without involving fantasy stories and threats of eternal punishment. And let them decide what they want their life to include or exclude?

[Kalns]

So you're advocating a no faith until 18 policy? :p

I think you're looking way too much into this. People who grew up in Christian homes become atheists all the time and likewise, people who grew up in atheist homes become Christians all the time. People aren't locked into beliefs. Everything we know and believe is constantly being challenged and it's up to us to process that and shape our world views accordingly.

[bartelby]

I think you're looking way too much into this. People who grew up in Christian homes become atheists all the time and likewise, people who grew up in atheist homes become Christians all the time. People aren't locked into beliefs. Everything we know and believe is constantly being challenged and it's up to us to process that an shape our world views accordingly.

So why bother with it at all then?

[Kalns]

Because apathy does not a good parent make.

[aquajet]

And the mother-son purity ball? I can't imagine why we don't see any of those...

[IJ Reilly]

Purity balls?

Some things are self-satirizing. Say no more.

[Kalns]

And the mother-son purity ball? I can't imagine why we don't see any of those...

Actually it's a father son initiation ceremony with the sword thing.

[bartelby]

Because apathy does not a good parent make.

So you're either a religious nut or apathetic?

Strange, my parents were neither and I turned out to be ok.

[Kalns]

So you're either a religious nut or apathetic?

Strange, my parents were neither and I turned out to be ok.

That's not what I said. You're either shaping you child's views or you're apathetic. Of course a Christian would mold their children's views towards that perspective. Just like an atheist would mold their children's views that way.

[skunk]

Actually it's a father son initiation ceremony with the sword thing.You can touch my sword if I can touch yours.

[aquajet]

Actually it's a father son initiation ceremony with the sword thing.

Is the same sort of anti-premarital sex conviction put into these ceremonies as well?

[Kalns]

Is the same sort of anti-premarital sex conviction put into these ceremonies as well?

No, sex has nothing to do with it. This one is about initiating a Christian boy into manhood. Sometimes the entire year prior is devoted to this purpose in whats called a vision quest year. It's basically a lot of prayer and challenges meant to lead the boy into greater responsibility, faith, courage and of course purpose.

[zimv20]

Of course a Christian would mold their children's views towards that perspective.
what do you guys call the ceremony where the girl promises her father she won't have sex with a horse?

[skunk]

No, sex has nothing to do with it. This one is about initiating a Christian boy into manhood. Sometimes the entire year prior is devoted to this purpose in whats called a vision quest year. It's basically a lot of prayer and challenges meant to lead the boy into greater responsibility, faith, courage and of course purpose.Because that's what white, Christian males do, holding their swords firmly in their hand. Whereas white, Christian females should keep themselves pure, saving themselves for ravishment only by their allotted Crusader, at his pleasure, and to the greater glory of their white, male god.

[Blue Velvet]

what do you guys call the ceremony where the girl promises her father she won't have sex with a horse?

Saying neigh?

[aquajet]

No, sex has nothing to do with it. This one is about initiating a Christian boy into manhood. Sometimes the entire year prior is devoted to this purpose in whats called a vision quest year. It's basically a lot of prayer and challenges meant to lead the boy into greater responsibility, faith, courage and of course purpose.

Then why did you mention it in the first place if we're talking about values which stress sex-within-marriage only?

[Kalns]

Those who can't think mock. ;)

[Kalns]

Then why did you mention it in the first place if we're talking about values which stress sex-within-marriage only?


It is related but not directly. Being a Christian man means taking responsibility and not taking advantage of girls just to satisfy a momentary lust.

[Peterkro]

Those who can't think mock. ;)

More like those that don't want to think flock.:p

[zimv20]

Saying neigh?

http://burbanked.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/old_ladies_clapping.jpg

[zimv20]

Being a Christian man means taking responsibility and not taking advantage of girls just to satisfy a momentary lust.
i don't think you have to be a christian to know that having sex with girls is wrong.

or do you mean 'women'?

[skunk]

Saying neigh?Excellent.

[Kalns]

More like those that don't want to think flock.:p

Look back at the past few posts. You're absolutely right. ;)

[skunk]

More like those that don't want to think flock.:pIs this a wallpaper joke?

[biturbomunkie]

pointless... the lamest party a nine-year-old could have. at that age, i barely knew what sex was. :rolleyes:

[zelmo]

So the girls get rings and the boys get swords. Nice.
Do the swords fit inside the rings snugly, or is that just a touch too much symbolism?

The real problem here is people relying on the power of a pledge to do their parenting, so these kids, as they grow older and break these meaningless vows, do not have the benefit of parental reinforcement of safe sex practices.

[miloblithe]

Kalns, I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching your children your values, and you're right, ultimately, children either accept or reject their parents values, or take parts of them... ultimately they become their own people. It's not the message that I find so creepy, it's the form. I think the discussion about sex and when to have it is something that parent's should do with their children in private. Taking a 9 or 10 year old and making them vow in public to their father that they will remain a virgin until marriage seems humiliating, it ignores the mother as a parent (no surprise there), it reinforces the idea that a woman's "purity" is something guarded by her father and given to her future husband by her father (which seems archaic)...

Want to tell your children it's best not to have sex before marriage? Go for it. Lay out why you think so.

Actually, there were some elements of this that seem positive to me: that the girl abstaining from sex is part of a deal where the father treats the mother right and abstains from pornography. It's not the specifics that appeal to me, but the idea seems right: we're all people and we all face dilemmas and have to try to make good choices.

[Kalns]

Yeah, I agree. I mean If I had a daughter I wouldn't do this sort of thing, but I'm not going to fault other people for doing it. Also I would say that this whole thing involving the rings isn't so much about sex as it is purity. Purity is more than sex and hence beginning such a discussion early on doesn't seem so bad.

[skunk]

Purity is more than sexThat depends on your definition of the word "is".

[miloblithe]

What else does purity entail?

[Kalns]

What else does purity entail?

Purity is learning to live and act like Christ. It's an all-encompassing thing really.

[Scarlet Fever]

really, who cares? let them do what they want. It doesn't affect anyone else, and its their own choice.

[IJ Reilly]

You can touch my sword if I can touch yours.

Please, don't axe me again.

[miloblithe]

Purity is learning to live and act like Christ. It's an all-encompassing thing really.

Like pure from sin? That seems a little vague. And it seems to me that there are elements of purity that are concentrated on, such as no sex before marriage, no pornography, etc.

[Kalns]

Like pure from sin? That seems a little vague. And it seems to me that there are elements of purity that are concentrated on, such as no sex before marriage, no pornography, etc.

Yes and no. I mean yeah, purity from sin is a part of it, but to leave it just at that would be misleading. It's the WHY and the WHO behind the WHAT that gives it it's importance.

[MACDRIVE]

Do all fathers feel bothered by the thought of their little girls having sex?

I'm not a dad; so I don't know. :confused:

[furious]

How long before chastity belts become fashionable again?
4 weeks

[skunk]

Do all fathers feel bothered by the thought of their little girls having sex?No, only the confused ones.

[AP_piano295]

What bugs me the most about this NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE crap is that (if you admit it or not) sex is an important part of any relationship, and people are expected to decide who they will spend their life with without knowing if theyre sexually compatible? Uhhh no

[OutThere]

What bugs me the most about this NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE crap is that (if you admit it or not) sex is an important part of any relationship, and people are expected to decide who they will spend their life with without knowing if theyre sexually compatible? Uhhh no

Yeah I've always wondered that...what happens when you get married and find out that the sex is terrible the first night? :eek: Granted, in the so-called 'ideal' situation, you wouldn't know good sex from bad...

Most research indicates that girls who pledge virginity only delay about 4 months on average from other girls, and then are more likely to get an STD, get pregnant or have anal sex.

The college breakaway is always interesting in that situation as well. I saw it happen last fall...the quiet looking, religious girls, the first weekend you see them stumbling down the hall drunk, then the next weekend you hear about how they had a 3 way with two guys from the hockey team. :rolleyes:

[joepunk]

ew.

I double EW

[Kalns]

"Honey, I love you so much....but the sex was terrible. I want a divorce."

Are you freaking kidding me? :eek:

[yg17]

And how does the father "protect his daughter's chastity", anyway? Shotgun??

Trunk Monkey (http://youtube.com/watch?v=iRBBhxJXZNU)


I'm not a 10 year old girl, but I think if I was, the thought of my dad even mentioning anything about sex, or especially my own, personal future sex life, would disgust me.

The whole thing is very, very creepy. Kids need to be taught that the world isn't going to come to an end if they screw around with someone else before marriage or even look at a damn Playboy. No one needs to live the first 20-something years of their life in fear like that. Teaching abstinence is a crock. As with anything else, the more you tell a someone not to do something, the more they'll want to do it.

[Kalns]

The women interested in purity wouldn't be interested in guys like you anyways so you have no problems. ;)

[MacNut]

what do you guys call the ceremony where the girl promises her father she won't have sex with a horse?Not meeting Tommy Lee.:p

[PlaceofDis]

The women interested in purity wouldn't be interested in guys like you anyways so you have no problems. ;)

excuse me?

what exactly are you trying to imply with "guys like you"?

[yg17]

excuse me?

what exactly are you trying to imply with "guys like you"?


10 bucks* says it has to do with religious beliefs....






*10 bucks may be monopoly or some other fake form of currency.

[Blue Velvet]

what exactly are you trying to imply with "guys like you"?


That's just the same as saying 'that kind of environment' in another thread.

I'm only recently discovering Kalns' talent for implied slurs and other unpleasantries... still, when you can cuddle your Bible, you can do no wrong.

[deputy_doofy]

What bugs me the most about this NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE crap is that (if you admit it or not) sex is an important part of any relationship, and people are expected to decide who they will spend their life with without knowing if theyre sexually compatible? Uhhh no

Agreed. With all due respect to all the religions, I would not stick with a woman, no matter how NICE she was, if we were not sexually compatible. Sex is extremely important and I shouldn't have to suffer because you now feel guilty about some "silly ring ceremony" you had with your father all those years ago.

[vniow]

The women interested in purity wouldn't be interested in guys like you anyways so you have no problems. ;)


Could you be any more condescending?

[zap2]

It's a celebration of the bond between father and daughter, and an expression of faith. I've never heard of actually having a ball, but I know many girls whose fathers gave them rings. Similarly, when Christian boys come of age it's not uncommon to give them a sword as a symbolic gesture.

Its young girl ...some so young they don't know what sex is, saying they won't do it. How can you say your not going to have sex when you don't know what it is?


Also why do american treat sex like its evil? Guess what, its pretty freaking important. The father all had sex to make their daughter, and they had it with someone's daughter, so telling them daughter not to have sex seems a bit hypocritical. My high school(and middle school) health books made sex out to be the worst thing EVER, like we would all drop dead if we did it.


As for that sword thing? Were do you live? I've never heard of that sword giving(or a ring with girls) I have a few friends that are pretty hardcore Xtians(one who doesn't believe in free will :eek: ) and they haven't ever talked about that

[zimv20]

"Honey, I love you so much....but the sex was terrible. I want a divorce."

Are you freaking kidding me? :eek:
in actuality, it's more like after 7 years, one or both partners are cheating. and after a few years of sneaking and lying and hating, one finally suggests splitting.

[Thomas Veil]

Surprisingly, the church saw something wrong with a father and son exchanging vows. :eek: :D ;)NAMBLA wasn't exactly crazy about that. :p

[killr_b]

…snip
Most research indicates that girls who pledge virginity only delay about 4 months on average from other girls, and then are more likely to get an STD, get pregnant or have anal sex.

Dude, where did you hear that? I've got a wtf in waiting.

[zimv20]

Dude, where did you hear that? I've got a wtf in waiting.
iirc, those stats were posted earlier in the thread.

[solvs]

Those who can't think mock. ;)

The women interested in purity wouldn't be interested in guys like you anyways so you have no problems. ;)

Pelosi's smile scares small children.
Yep.

Daddy/Daughter dances are bad enough, this is just creepy.

[spicyapple]

As long as daddy is not a molester or a perv, a father-daughter relationship is one of the most enduring, precious relationships a female could ever have with a man.

I also read that hormones in a daughter make her sexually repulsive to the father. Good to know. :)

[yg17]

Those who can't think mock. ;)

So, basically, you mean everyone who follows organized religion? Sounds about right.

[someguy]

As long as daddy is not a molester or a perv, a father-daughter relationship is one of the most enduring, precious relationships a female could ever have with a man.
I agree, however this has little to do with that relationship, IMO.

This has to do with the father being an overly-religious nut and not knowing what else to do but use God and guilt in an attempt to manipulate his daughters future actions. I understand the good intention, but this plan his horribly flawed.

Think about it. Here you have a young, impressionably mind. Why not take the time to talk to her and explain the facts of life to her so that she understands why it might be important to "save yourself" for marriage (not that I personally think it is)? This way she would know she can talk to her father and that he would be rational and understanding regarding the topic.

But no, that's never going to work. Let's get her while she's too young to disagree/care/put up a fight/know any better. Let's just get her to PROMISE she won't do it, even before she has any interest in it that way it'll be easy. And just to make things worse, we'll make God out to be the bad guy here, so that when she grows up and starts taking an interest in boys, we can blame God for her not being able to experiment with her sexuality in any way. It'll be great! And what's better is we'll never have to have "the talk" with her because by the time she is interested, she will to afraid to ask any difficult questions having made those promises a few years back when we put the fear of Hell in her with the whole creepy "ceremony" deal.

Come to think of it, these fathers are geniuses!! :eek:


I bet I've seen a few of these girls down at the Deja Vu in Flint. :rolleyes:

So, basically, you mean everyone who follows organized religion? Sounds about right.
I'd have agree with that.

[iBlue]

"Honey, I love you so much....but the sex was terrible. I want a divorce."

Are you freaking kidding me? :eek:

In a general way, no - not kidding.

No matter how taboo the topic, sex is very VERY important. It can ultimately lead to the demise of a marriage. If it's a bad fit, it's a bad fit. I try my shoes on before I buy them.