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balamw
Mar 26, 2007, 06:50 PM
http://appletvhacks.net/

http://www.ozy.us/stuff/ExternalBootOnAppleTV.mov

Of course it still requires you to pull the drive out to make the image.

EDIT: It does however open the door to being able to gain access to the device without cracking the case.

B



localoid
Mar 26, 2007, 07:37 PM
Yeah, great stuff, 'ey? :)

To add a little more specific details:

The AwkwardTV project is working on building a bootable image based on the Open Source Darwin kernel (http://developer.apple.com/opensource/index.html). If successful, booting the modified Darwin image via an external USB drive would would allow mounting and editing of the internal hard disk, and permit the various hacks, such as enabling SSH, to be installed/enabled without opening the case.

MacRumors
Mar 26, 2007, 08:53 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

After initial reports of hacking the Apple TV (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/23/apple-tv-upgrades-xvid-and-more-support-120gb-hd/) to play other formats such as XviD, work has continued surrounding the Something Awful forum thread (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2391956) about how to get further functionality out of the Apple TV.

Users have been able to run various apps (World of Warcraft (http://flickr.com/photos/czarcats/434918864/), VLC (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2391956&perpage=40&pagenumber=9#post324930488), Firefox (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2391956&perpage=40&pagenumber=9#post324935014)) remotely through VNC. Other efforts reveal (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2391956&perpage=40&pagenumber=10#post324962390) that the Apple TV does respond to an external keyboard.

The most significant step (http://www.awkwardtv.org/?p=9) at this stage has been the ability to boot the Apple TV from an external USB drive. A video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTgC_dmp8vE) demos the external USB drive on an (essentially) unmodified Apple TV.

whyrichard
Mar 26, 2007, 08:56 PM
so one computer, multiple locations of mac access around the house?

sweet.
r

job
Mar 26, 2007, 09:00 PM
Holy crap. This is cool. It's almost like Apple wanted us to snoop around and start hacking this thing.

Currently, this is the least inexpensive Mac you can buy. :p

I can't wait to see what people have in store for this odd little contraption.

xUKHCx
Mar 26, 2007, 09:00 PM
Quick work, the more this thing gets "modded" the more i am thinking about buying one.


(At this stage i have no need at all to buy one, my current telly 14" CRT is a lot smaller than my iMac 20" with eyeTV and all my content already on the iMac)

sfwalter
Mar 26, 2007, 09:00 PM
So the usb port has more use than just maintenance by Apple. :D

jsw
Mar 26, 2007, 09:03 PM
Excellent. If done properly, then, one could, for all intents and purposes, make all sorts of mods to the Apple TV via external drive without even affecting the internal drive, so that, if booted without the external, it would revert to original behavior. No warranty issues at all. Cool.

whyrichard
Mar 26, 2007, 09:07 PM
and lets not forget about resolution independance in the next os...

the finder would not look so bad at hd video resolutions if for res independance...

every tv in the house is a head for your desktop with itv... i think thats cooler then booting off hd..

r.

zap2
Mar 26, 2007, 09:08 PM
Why on his AppleTV is he using the Yellow(composite) port(for vidoe)? AppleTV only support Red, Blue and Green(component) for Video(audio is the same on both)

He even say "use standard component" but the cord is 3(2 for audio) 1 yellow for vidoe, which is composite.


Here a pic if you don't want to watch the vidoe

johnee
Mar 26, 2007, 09:09 PM
I posted in a previous thread that I was surprised someone didn't figure out how to boot linux on it within one day. I'm a bit disappointed in all you hackers out there... and i thought you were making progress... it takes you guys about a week?

where is that melvin guy from War Games, he can do it... :D

justflie
Mar 26, 2007, 09:11 PM
Whatever sells more units for Apple is fine by me (maybe the halo effect will expand). I'm sure Apple Legal disagrees with me though...(ie torrenting the ATV OS)

/"\/oo\/"\
Mar 26, 2007, 09:15 PM
Why on his AppleTV is he using the Yellow(composite) port(for vidoe)? AppleTV only support Red, Blue and Green(component) for Video(audio is the same on both)

He even say "use standard component" but the cord is 3(2 for audio) 1 yellow for vidoe, which is composite.


Here a pic if you don't want to watch the vidoe

the cable is the same inside...just a different color plastic on the outside http://www.s2ki.com/forums/html/emoticons/th_dontknow.gif

kcroy
Mar 26, 2007, 09:16 PM
Using "screen sharing" in iChat on Leopard you will be able to access your computer via AppleTV, checking email or surfing the web during commercial breaks; the same will be true with the iPhone (you will be able to access content on your computer throught your phone... video, music, etc.) The key is Leopard. June Baby!:D

jsw
Mar 26, 2007, 09:17 PM
Why on his AppleTV is he using the Yellow(composite) port(for vidoe)? AppleTV only support Red, Blue and Green(component) for Video(audio is the same on both)
I think he's just using a standard A/V cable instead of a differently-colored Component one. Same ports, though. Don't be misled by the colors. :)

Edit: N/M. See above.

Laslo Panaflex
Mar 26, 2007, 09:18 PM
Why on his AppleTV is he using the Yellow(composite) port(for vidoe)? AppleTV only support Red, Blue and Green(component) for Video(audio is the same on both)

He even say "use standard component" but the cord is 3(2 for audio) 1 yellow for vidoe, which is composite.


Here a pic if you don't want to watch the vidoe

He is just using a cheap composite cord instead of a component cord, just because the colors don't match on the cord ends doesn't mean it won't work.

fawlty
Mar 26, 2007, 09:23 PM
Currently, this is the least inexpensive Mac you can buy. :p

I think its the most inexpensive Mac you can buy...

job
Mar 26, 2007, 09:26 PM
I think its the most inexpensive Mac you can buy...

Whoops.

What you said. :)

Digitalclips
Mar 26, 2007, 09:27 PM
Why on his AppleTV is he using the Yellow(composite) port(for vidoe)? AppleTV only support Red, Blue and Green(component) for Video(audio is the same on both)

He even say "use standard component" but the cord is 3(2 for audio) 1 yellow for vidoe, which is composite.


Here a pic if you don't want to watch the vidoe

My guess is he used a composite + RL audio cable (yellow + red and white) instead a component cable which would have been RGB and probably no audio at all. The cables are all simply RCA phono at the end of the day.

musicpenguy
Mar 26, 2007, 09:28 PM
This is amazing: so I can buy a 500GB external USB and put the ?TV OS on it with the new codecs and boot from that and leave the original apple tv alone!! this is freaking amazing, and since it is always running it won't be a hassle!

Cult Follower
Mar 26, 2007, 09:29 PM
these ne developments are becoming more and more promising.

Konradx
Mar 26, 2007, 09:33 PM
If this takes off im seriously considering buying this!! I asked previously on the forums if modding apple products was aloud, and alot of ppl said it wasnt. But im happy it is! Its not like we're stealing anything from apple, just making there products better:D

Im wondering if modding iTunes might be a better solution then modding the ATV?

rxse7en
Mar 26, 2007, 09:33 PM
I think its the most inexpensive Mac you can buy...

I think its is it's. :D

mrjeffMacPro
Mar 26, 2007, 09:37 PM
ill get one as soon as they add diVX compatibility!!!!

failsafe1
Mar 26, 2007, 09:37 PM
I am missing something. I read the article but don't understand what this means about the benefit of the USB boot drive. Does this make the Apple TV a Apple computer that is controlled through your TV? Help me understand.

jsw
Mar 26, 2007, 09:40 PM
I am missing something. I read the article but don't understand what this means about the benefit of the USB boot drive. Does this make the Apple TV a Apple computer that is controlled through your TV? Help me understand.
If nothing else, it means you can use a much larger external drive for storage without opening the Apple TV.

It also means one could use the Apple TV, yes, as a computer with your TV as the monitor. Not an incredibly powerful computer with tons of RAM, but a usable computer nevertheless.

nagromme
Mar 26, 2007, 09:44 PM
Pretty neat.

1. Download special open source Darwin install from Internet (someone will make one).

2. Install on USB thumbdrive, iPod, HD, or even your camera.

3. Boot AppleTV from the special install, and use it to hack the internal drive to your heart's content.

4. Custom AppleTV madness with no hardware hacking!

It's nice that Apple is keeping AppleTV simple by not SUPPORTING customization and 3rd-party apps, but is also not going to extreme measures to make it impossible.

Hopefully the iPhone will be the same way. Best of both worlds: a simple, predictable, reliable appliance with Apple quality control, AND, for the hard-core hobbyist, a platform they can monkey with--at their own risk.

After all, I enjoyed changing my iPod UI from blue to red :)

failsafe1
Mar 26, 2007, 09:45 PM
If nothing else, it means you can use a much larger external drive for storage without opening the Apple TV.

It also means one could use the Apple TV, yes, as a computer with your TV as the monitor. Not an incredibly powerful computer with tons of RAM, but a usable computer nevertheless.

Thanks I was wondering what I was missing. Makes for interesting possibilities.

arn
Mar 26, 2007, 09:45 PM
I am missing something. I read the article but don't understand what this means about the benefit of the USB boot drive. Does this make the Apple TV a Apple computer that is controlled through your TV? Help me understand.

The main benefit is that you don't have to physically open your Apple TV to boot a custom install.

For example, you could buy an Apple TV. Copy a special installer into a USB drive. External boot the USB drive on the Apple TV which will install additional drivers (Divx, Xvid etc...) onto your Apple TV. This way you could add functionality without physically opening your Apple TV itself.

arn

twoodcc
Mar 26, 2007, 10:02 PM
this seems pretty cool....that's quite a bit of stuff the Apple TV can do. i'm impressed

brk
Mar 26, 2007, 10:19 PM
so does anyone want to weigh in on the possibility of eventually booting other machines with the apple TV OS? if you have an old machine around it might be attractive to run the stripped-down OS and just use it an el-cheapo AppleTV...

ChrisA
Mar 26, 2007, 10:28 PM
Here is what people really wanted.

http://www.mythtv.org/modules.php?name=MythFeatures

Now they can install this on a USB drive and re-boot the ATV and have a really nice Myth TV front end.

cr2sh
Mar 26, 2007, 10:40 PM
Are there existing IR remotes that one can purchase to get around using the apple remote?

boult
Mar 26, 2007, 10:43 PM
Why on his AppleTV is he using the Yellow(composite) port(for vidoe)? AppleTV only support Red, Blue and Green(component) for Video(audio is the same on both)

He even say "use standard component" but the cord is 3(2 for audio) 1 yellow for vidoe, which is composite.


Here a pic if you don't want to watch the vidoe

He has HDMI cable hooked up to HDMI port so HDMI take priority over component. Of course he does not yellow one to be plugged in but no effect anyway *shrug*

posting better picture here...

EDIT..........
alright I looked at Apple Tv's website.. I'll admit to say "whoops" those three are plugged into component ports not audio port. and that blue cable is either ethernet or usb not hdmi cable. SORRY GUYS! some previous posters are right that the cable used in video are composite cable not component cable.

balamw
Mar 26, 2007, 10:47 PM
He has HDMI cable hooked up to HDMI port so HDMI take priority over component. Of course he does not yellow one to be plugged in but no effect anyway *shrug*

posting better picture here...

:confused: He has power and wired ethernet connected and is using a standard composite cable for component video only (RGB no audio). So he's limiting the bandwidth a bit by using the cheaper Yellow Red White composite RCA cables, but it's still component signals.

B

asterizk
Mar 26, 2007, 10:54 PM
The most significant step (http://www.awkwardtv.org/?p=9) at this stage has been the ability to boot the Apple TV from an external USB drive. A video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTgC_dmp8vE) demos the external USB drive on an (essentially) unmodified Apple TV.

Cool! :D This almost seems too good to be true. Is anyone else's cynical senses tingling? Like, Apple's gonna come along with a software update and BAM no more USB booting without special Apple encrypted boot loader something or other?

mkjellman
Mar 26, 2007, 10:58 PM
issue is apple has already let a non-encrypted version out of the bag....that means that even if apple did start encrypting things, people could just put the old version on or not upgrade. At least with Rev.1 this is how things are going to be. And I personally don't see any reason Apple would want to stop this kid of stuff from happening.

balamw
Mar 26, 2007, 11:00 PM
issue is apple has already let a non-encrypted version out of the bag....that means that even if apple did start encrypting things, people could just put the old version on or not upgrade. At least with Rev.1 this is how things are going to be. And I personally don't see any reason Apple would want to stop this kid of stuff from happening.

Apple has one way to force upgrades they have used previously. Introduce a new version of FairPlay.

Of course this would only affect people who buy iTS content.

B

scrambledwonder
Mar 26, 2007, 11:04 PM
Awesome! Now all we need is somebody to hack it into a steampunk contraption we'll really be cookin!

nagromme
Mar 26, 2007, 11:13 PM
Are there existing IR remotes that one can purchase to get around using the apple remote?

Yes, some universal remotes have Apple Remote support built-in. (And others can probably be "trained.") I can imagine this could only imitate UNpaired remotes, but that's OK: pair your Mac and leave the AppleTV unpaired, but turned off when not in use.

Now, who's going to get Folding@Home going on an AppleTV? :)

Kingsly
Mar 26, 2007, 11:13 PM
Wowee!
I look forward to being able to use the :apple: TV as a basic OSX computer!

(P.S. in the video of it booting the guy's Mail.app got an e-mail.. and I immediately clicked over to read "my" e-mail! :rolleyes: :D :o )

thejadedmonkey
Mar 26, 2007, 11:27 PM
Whatever sells more units for Apple is fine by me (maybe the halo effect will expand). I'm sure Apple Legal disagrees with me though...(ie torrenting the ATV OS)
It took OS X for intel like a week for a torrent to hit. It took maybe 2 days for the :apple: TV OS to hit. Personally, I think the OS was leaked by Apple on purpose.

PlaceofDis
Mar 26, 2007, 11:31 PM
It took OS X for intel like a week for a torrent to hit. It took maybe 2 days for the :apple: TV OS to hit. Personally, I think the OS was leaked by Apple on purpose.

apple wouldn't torrent their own OS, but this has a larger market than OS X

motulist
Mar 26, 2007, 11:32 PM
<Borat>That video was most impressive...
...

...

...

...

...

...

...


Not. </borat>

Seriously though. I understand that technically this is meaningful, but it sure doesn't look very impressive on the face of it. Still, I'm glad I saw the video to get an idea of where they're at in their hacking quest.

Luis
Mar 26, 2007, 11:38 PM
ill get one as soon as they add diVX compatibility!!!!

There are already some hacks to get it.

brucku
Mar 26, 2007, 11:39 PM
Apple tv's market is not larger than MacOX. That can't be true.

One thing to remember here (in my mind). Is that this device is a lightweight. Apple offers a heavyweight that does EVERYTHING and more that you guys are working towards.

localoid
Mar 26, 2007, 11:49 PM
I think its the most inexpensive Mac you can buy...

<$299 micro Mac + OS X 10.4.* + hackable = z0m6!

Leopard's new iChat features + (the above) = z0m6!1111oneoneoe

:p

balamw
Mar 26, 2007, 11:51 PM
Apple offers a heavyweight that does EVERYTHING and more that you guys are working towards.
The cheapest Mini is 2X as expensive as the :apple:TV and has a weaker GPU.

FWIW the iPod nano outsells the full size iPod by a huge margin, even though by comparison it is a lightweight.

B

localoid
Mar 27, 2007, 12:17 AM
...One thing to remember here (in my mind). Is that this device is a lightweight. Apple offers a heavyweight that does EVERYTHING and more that you guys are working towards.

You fail to understand this device is an "extension"... not a standalone "powerhouse." It doesn't have to be. :rolleyes:

Consider the possibilities of :apple: tv combined with the new functions of iChat Theater (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/ichat.html), soon to be available in Leopard, for example. Presentations would be more easier done, and could be much more interactive than ever before. :)

stevehp
Mar 27, 2007, 12:56 AM
that's cool, but what I can't understand is that won't all this stop working once apple releases a new software update? Can't they make it impossible to use the :apple: tv unless you update?

backspinner
Mar 27, 2007, 01:01 AM
the guy's Mail.app got an e-mail.. and I immediately clicked over to read "my" e-mail! :rolleyes:
that was my reaction as well :)

robbyx
Mar 27, 2007, 01:06 AM
All of these hacks sound promising indeed. Very exciting!

What I'd like to know is if it is somehow possible to harness the processing power of the Apple TV to encode video? VisualHub, for example, supports Xgrid. Given that it takes me around 18 hours (!!!) to convert a DVD to H.264 on my iMac G5, the thought of using the Apple TV's idle processing power (when not in use) to help speed things up is quite appealing.

Any thoughts on the subject?

nagromme
Mar 27, 2007, 01:27 AM
that's cool, but what I can't understand is that won't all this stop working once apple releases a new software update? Can't they make it impossible to use the :apple: tv unless you update?

Yes, hacks can certainly interfere with updates.

That's why I might prefer to boot a modified OS on an external drive, and leave the internal "as is."

What I'd like to know is if it is somehow possible to harness the processing power of the Apple TV to encode video? VisualHub, for example, supports Xgrid. Given that it takes me around 18 hours (!!!) to convert a DVD to H.264 on my iMac G5, the thought of using the Apple TV's idle processing power (when not in use) to help speed things up is quite appealing.

Any thoughts on the subject?

Well, a Pentium-M class processor is no Core 2, but it's not bad either. It could probably shave a few hours off your process, if someone gets XGrid working and VisualHub is Intel-optimized.

skellener
Mar 27, 2007, 01:52 AM
How about a hack now to get a very small USB DVD drive hooked up to the AppleTV?? Maybe some company out there will start making one in the same form factor as the Apple TV so it can stack on top or underneath it. Add to that a nice size USB drive (500 GB-1 TB) and a HD Tuner (Miglia, Eye TV , etc) and you'd have a pretty nice set up.

While the Mac-mini can already do much of this, it cannot be hooked to a component HDTV. You must have HDMI or DVI to use a mini. I have seen no solutions for a Mac-mini running a signal through component connectors to an HDTV anywhere. The mini lacks the chip to convert the signal. It's not just a matter of cables. The signal isn't compatible.

I have an HDTV circa 2001 with only component connectors so the AppleTV should be fine. Keeps the hacks coming!! It's amazing that it's been just under a week and all this stuff has come out! Simply amazing!

localoid
Mar 27, 2007, 02:26 AM
:p

Apple TV running on a Macbook (http://macgeek.freeflux.net/blog/archive/2007/03/27/apple-tv-running-on-a-macbook.html) (using patched Finder)

iMikeT
Mar 27, 2007, 03:30 AM
I'm surprized that the :apple:tv doesn't have the startup chime that all Macs have.

Also, I am beginning to think that Apple is "allowing" users to be able to hack the :apple:tv. Who knows? Maybe it's their way of (not) telling us this product has more functionality than it first seems.

surferfromuk
Mar 27, 2007, 05:33 AM
Is this Apple TV OS any more open than the OS on a standard mac, or is it merely that it's simply accessible like the OS on a standard mac?

If that's the case then I can't see why Apple would really care what the end user does with their Apple TV than they do already with their mac...

In fact you would think that Steve would be thrilled - probably reminds him of his old 'blue boxing' days...Who knows maybe some pair of geeks will start selling a 'hack pack' for this thing out of the back of an old beat up VW bus!!...:)

GregA
Mar 27, 2007, 05:48 AM
Also, I am beginning to think that Apple is "allowing" users to be able to hack the :apple:tv. Who knows? Maybe it's their way of (not) telling us this product has more functionality than it first seems.Yes it's interesting.. why so little protection (or is there more protection we didn't know about?)

I'm sure Apple can stop this if they want. I'm also sure they know that playing DivX and x264 files will make the AppleTV more popular.

But I think this is an interim AppleTV OS (modified 10.4.7). The real one will be a 'lite' version of OSX 10.5. It'll have some neat new functionality and run slightly more efficiently.. and break every "mod" that comes out between now and July. (Yes, this is my 'inner pessimist' talking)

needthephone
Mar 27, 2007, 06:25 AM
I can't petend to understand what you are all talking about but to me I think the leak to do all this stuff probably came from apple itself. With the internet its impossile to find the source of leaks and rumours but this seems to easy. From what I can gather this thing is being turned into a computer and soon someone is going to hook a DVD player up to it. A lot of so called album leaks come from record companies to create a buzz

MongoTheGeek
Mar 27, 2007, 07:04 AM
When the iMac came out people said that Apple was nuts for releasing a computer without a floppy drive. Now they have released essentially a computer with no drive of any sort.

GregA
Mar 27, 2007, 07:12 AM
Now they have released essentially a computer with no drive of any sort.
Ummm.. except the 40GB internal hard drive, right?

CrazyWingman
Mar 27, 2007, 07:35 AM
Hmmm...if the :apple:tv will recognize both a keyboard and a hard drive connected via USB, then maybe it will recognize other things - like one of those USB TV tuners! That would be great, because then you could watch TV on your ... wait a second. :P

Actually, I suppose it could open the possibility for PVR. Just need drivers...

asterizk
Mar 27, 2007, 08:05 AM
Wowee!
I look forward to being able to use the :apple: TV as a basic OSX computer!

(P.S. in the video of it booting the guy's Mail.app got an e-mail.. and I immediately clicked over to read "my" e-mail! :rolleyes: :D :o )

Haha... whew, glad you posted this... I rewound, but I guess not far enough... didn't hear the sound, checked Mail again, concluded that either (a) I was crazy or that (b) Mail had messed up. :)

angelwatt
Mar 27, 2007, 08:12 AM
I wonder is Apple is grinning :D at all this news of mods, or if they're cringing :confused: about it. I'm sure we all realize Apple has much bigger plans for :apple: TVs future, but will we force them to make that future come sooner with all these mods? Guess time will tell. I'll be waiting to see Apple's response to all this before I consider buying one, and also I need a better TV to make it worth it.

Thank goodness for customer's curiosity, and the benefits we all reap from them.

m2uk
Mar 27, 2007, 08:21 AM
With the right cables can one connect the Appletv to a light projector. The reseller in Finland I have asked did not know. It would be nice to have a projector with this built in though!

j26
Mar 27, 2007, 08:33 AM
Hmmm.....

This combined with a DVD Wii (http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/14/nintendo-confirms-dvd-enabled-wii-in-07/) would set me up nicely to replace the crap under my TV.

I'm sure they'll come up with a HDD in the same form factor as the ATV.

peharri
Mar 27, 2007, 08:46 AM
I wonder is Apple is grinning :D at all this news of mods, or if they're cringing :confused: about it. I'm sure we all realize Apple has much bigger plans for :apple: TVs future, but will we force them to make that future come sooner with all these mods? Guess time will tell. I'll be waiting to see Apple's response to all this before I consider buying one, and also I need a better TV to make it worth it.

Thank goodness for customer's curiosity, and the benefits we all reap from them.

It would be unlike Apple to be completely happy with a modded version of hardware that's sold as closed, but that said Apple hasn't gone after projects like iPod Linux to the best of my knowledge.

My guess is that if people keep trying to find ways of making the @TV a lightweight Mac mini, complete with a fully enabled version of Tiger, they'll take steps to make that difficult, if not impossible. That may include EFI hacks (firmware hacks, preventing the @TV from booting from an unsigned internal or external drive at all) which would be terrible news for the modding community.

But if the modding is limited to using the @TV to run free operating systems like Ubuntu, which may actually be useful if people build TV oriented UIs (like iPod Linux has an iPod oriented UI), coupled with the free DVR software that exists in Free Software land (MythTV? I forget), then from Apple's point of view they're selling hardware to a market that doesn't compete in any way with Apple's stuff, that can be withdrawn should Apple decide it does, actually, compete in some way. In that set of circumstances, I can't see Apple any more effort to close the @TV further than they do the iPod.

Now, some are speculating the iPhone will be semi-open too. I'm not so sure about that. From comments Jobs has made about the security of the device, it sounds like the OS has control over the phone that goes beyond what a typical Smartphone OS allows (typical Smartphone OSes separate the phone end from the opened front-end.) It also sounds like OS X, in this instance, doesn't have a substantial, predictable, well designed, security model that would prevent rouge applications from doing things they shouldn't.

If this is true (and Teh Steve may have been engaging in some kind of handwaving when he claimed opening the OS would put Cingular's network at risk, it might just be he wants Apple to have a lot of control over the user experience in the early days and made this up), then Apple would likely stamp on any attempt to open up iPhone.

Gut reaction: I'd wait and see if @TV stays open. I think it very much depends on the types of hacks people come up with for it. I can't see Apple preventing its use as a MythTV box. It may even be that, with 256Mb of non-upgradeable RAM, they don't consider it much of a threat running *Mac* OS X (ie being the $300 Mac we'd like it to be.) But I wouldn't bet on it.

I wanted one of these things before the hacks started, my major issue being that I need to do something about my other Macs which aren't really powerful enough any more, but boy do I want one now.

csimmons
Mar 27, 2007, 09:00 AM
All this tinkering with and hacking of the AppleTV is market research for Apple, and more importantly, for accessory makers, in order to determine what stuff they can bring out to support it.

I smell an ecosystem brewing.

ijimk
Mar 27, 2007, 09:10 AM
How the hell did that guy get WoW running on his ATV? I just want to see WoW on my HD tv for the kool factor... :D

Yvan256
Mar 27, 2007, 09:16 AM
Apple tv's market is not larger than MacOX. That can't be true.

One thing to remember here (in my mind). Is that this device is a lightweight. Apple offers a heavyweight that does EVERYTHING and more that you guys are working towards.

The :apple:TV connects to iTunes. iTunes is available on Windows and Mac OS X. It's pretty safe to say there's going to be more :apple:TV around than there is recent Macs (say, Intel Macs).


[...] I can't see Apple preventing its use as a MythTV box. It may even be that, with 256Mb of non-upgradeable RAM, they don't consider it much of a threat running *Mac* OS X (ie being the $300 Mac we'd like it to be.) But I wouldn't bet on it. [...]

Make Leopard require 512MB RAM. Problem solved. :D

newConvert
Mar 27, 2007, 09:27 AM
How about a hack now to get a very small USB DVD drive hooked up to the AppleTV?? Maybe some company out there will start making one in the same form factor as the Apple TV so it can stack on top or underneath it. Add to that a nice size USB drive (500 GB-1 TB) and a HD Tuner (Miglia, Eye TV , etc) and you'd have a pretty nice set up.

While the Mac-mini can already do much of this, it cannot be hooked to a component HDTV. You must have HDMI or DVI to use a mini. I have seen no solutions for a Mac-mini running a signal through component connectors to an HDTV anywhere. The mini lacks the chip to convert the signal. It's not just a matter of cables. The signal isn't compatible.

I have an HDTV circa 2001 with only component connectors so the AppleTV should be fine. Keeps the hacks coming!! It's amazing that it's been just under a week and all this stuff has come out! Simply amazing!

How about getting the xbox 360 HD DVD drive working on it or a Blu Ray (don't think there is a external usb bluray yet.), that would be awsome.

milo
Mar 27, 2007, 09:43 AM
ill get one as soon as they add diVX compatibility!!!!

That has been hacked already. Do you actually read this site?

bommai
Mar 27, 2007, 10:02 AM
Why on his AppleTV is he using the Yellow(composite) port(for vidoe)? AppleTV only support Red, Blue and Green(component) for Video(audio is the same on both)

He even say "use standard component" but the cord is 3(2 for audio) 1 yellow for vidoe, which is composite.


Here a pic if you don't want to watch the vidoe

He is probably using all three (white, red, and yellow) for component video. You can use them - may not work the best because the cable looks cheap and unshielded. Don't get caught up in the color of the cable.

sishaw
Mar 27, 2007, 10:10 AM
I'm surprized that the :apple:tv doesn't have the startup chime that all Macs have.

Also, I am beginning to think that Apple is "allowing" users to be able to hack the :apple:tv. Who knows? Maybe it's their way of (not) telling us this product has more functionality than it first seems.

Or, maybe they'll integrate the best hacks in a future generation. So the user community is doing their R&D for them, for free.

Konradx
Mar 27, 2007, 10:49 AM
I'm hoping Apple doesnt take the Sony approach by constantly sending firmware updates. Then again each update for the psp gets cracked pretty fast.

goosnarrggh
Mar 27, 2007, 11:00 AM
...That may include EFI hacks (firmware hacks, preventing the @TV from booting from an unsigned internal or external drive at all) which would be terrible news for the modding community.

IIRC that would be an example of one of the potential capabilities that was designed into EFI right from the start. You know, the whole Trusted Computing initiative... So I don't suppose it could be classified as a "hack".

gkarris
Mar 27, 2007, 11:08 AM
Now let's see this thing boot OS X, Vista, and Linux off of assorted USB drives.

A $299 Apple Server!!!

Diode
Mar 27, 2007, 11:52 AM
I'm hoping Apple doesnt take the Sony approach by constantly sending firmware updates. Then again each update for the psp gets cracked pretty fast.

I don't see why they would. Apple is not losing money on each device like sony does. Sony has economic interest to keep people from running homebrew (they recover the cost by selling games).

Apple does have itunes to sell stuff but since they haven't done anything about ipod firware why would they about the apple tv?

Leondunkleyc
Mar 27, 2007, 12:10 PM
.

sishaw
Mar 27, 2007, 01:49 PM
I completely agree with you, I think Steve Jobs is sitting in front of his iMac (or :apple:TV with Safari?) with a big box of popcorn and an equally large grin on his face as he reads the somethingawful forum thread.

Call me mad, but I think apple actualy wants this to be the world's most modded device. It's fun for us, generated interest and sales and with a mini Mac OS X, a whole world of options are possible. I think this is part of the reason they added the USB port.

Sure he does. That's how he'll know what features to add for ATV II. It's very smart, and also, ultimately, responsive both to Apple's needs and those of the users.

pilotError
Mar 27, 2007, 02:01 PM
I think apple actualy wants this to be the world's most modded device

The silence out of Infinite Loop is actually deafening.

Did Apple even react to the OS image being passed around on the Torrents?

What's nice about this, is that they may have found a way to mod it without opening it up. A build of Darwin and some scripts could put everything in place for you, and it wouldn't be illegal since Darwin is open source.

jaw04005
Mar 27, 2007, 02:19 PM
OK. Maybe I'm missing something?

1. Create image of the original hard drive. (Or download)
2. Copy OS.img to new external hard drive.
3. Connect external hard drive into :apple: TV via USB.
4. After normal startup using internal drive , hold down (-) and MENU.
5. Apple TV boots using the external hard drive to a recovery menu.
6. You are prompted to select Restore to Original Condition, Restart or Run Diagnostic Mode.

Now what? How is this helpful?

Update: The AwkwardTV wiki has been updated to reflect that the :apple: TV OS disables USB during startup. This prevents the external disc from fully booting.

So bottom line, you can't use the external hard drive as a replacement for the internal as of yet.

cowm007
Mar 27, 2007, 03:08 PM
Hackers these days can do it all. And people are worried that the iPhone will only run Apple approved apps. Just let these people get their hands on one and anything can happen.

peharri
Mar 27, 2007, 03:21 PM
The silence out of Infinite Loop is actually deafening.

Did Apple even react to the OS image being passed around on the Torrents?

What's nice about this, is that they may have found a way to mod it without opening it up. A build of Darwin and some scripts could put everything in place for you, and it wouldn't be illegal since Darwin is open source.

The @TV has only been sold for a few days, and the hacking really didn't start straight away. Meanwhile, IIRC, Apple took several weeks to respond to the cracked Mac OS X for Intel appearing.

So I wouldn't read anything into the fact they haven't taken legal action yet.

Now, if someone hacked the @TV to display pictures of forthcoming Apple products, photographed in elevators, then Apple legal would spring into action...

stevehp
Mar 27, 2007, 03:26 PM
UMMM, now that ppl have figured out how to boot :apple: tv on a macbook, doesn't this mean, with a download or rip of the :apple: tv OS you could hook your mac up to a tv and not even need to purchase an :apple: tv in the first place?

peharri
Mar 27, 2007, 03:28 PM
OK. Maybe I'm missing something?

1. Create image of the original hard drive. (Or download)
2. Copy OS.img to new external hard drive.
3. Connect external hard drive into :apple: TV via USB.
4. After normal startup using internal drive , hold down (-) and MENU.
5. Apple TV boots using the external hard drive to a recovery menu.
6. You are prompted to select Restore to Original Condition, Restart or Run Diagnostic Mode.

Now what? How is this helpful?


It's a step towards something useful. The "Hello world" computer program isn't that useful either, but it's always a major milestone when a compiler can turn it into something runnable.


Update: The AwkwardTV wiki has been updated to reflect that the :apple: TV OS disables USB during startup. This prevents the external disc from fully booting.


Just to be clear, it's not clear the OS "disables" USB during startup, it's just as likely it just doesn't support USB and so doesn't see it. Whatever the case, a modified @TVOSX should be possible either with generic Darwin with no code to "disable" USB, or device drivers capable of seeing the @TV USB hardware installed.

Most of the fuss about getting USB to work has focussed on people copying across the HID drivers. In reality, to get USB working requires lower level drivers to work that may or may not work with the @TV, OHCI/UHCI/etc with PCI, all recognizing the correct device IDs et al.

The bottom line is that this is a step towards a usable system. A port of Darwin that recognizes the USB hardware could be used to create a generic, reliable, no soldering skills required, system to open up the @TV. This discovery appears to point in a direction proving it's possible.

peharri
Mar 27, 2007, 03:31 PM
UMMM, now that ppl have figured out how to boot :apple: tv on a macbook, doesn't this mean, with a download or rip of the :apple: tv OS you could hook your mac up to a tv and not even need to purchase an :apple: tv in the first place?

You can do that anyway, with the right cables.

@TV isn't about hooking your Mac up to the TV. That's already possible. @TV is about having a standalone set top box that accesses your media library from the TV, leaving your computer in the other room where it "belongs".

gnasher729
Mar 27, 2007, 05:17 PM
OK. Maybe I'm missing something?

1. Create image of the original hard drive. (Or download)
2. Copy OS.img to new external hard drive.
3. Connect external hard drive into :apple: TV via USB.
4. After normal startup using internal drive , hold down (-) and MENU.
5. Apple TV boots using the external hard drive to a recovery menu.
6. You are prompted to select Restore to Original Condition, Restart or Run Diagnostic Mode.

Now what? How is this helpful?

Update: The AwkwardTV wiki has been updated to reflect that the :apple: TV OS disables USB during startup. This prevents the external disc from fully booting.

So bottom line, you can't use the external hard drive as a replacement for the internal as of yet.

The significance is that this is "proof of concept": The Apple TV _will_ to boot from any external USB drive. So all that needs to be done now is create a boot image that works. This opens the possibility of hacking the Apple TV _without_ opening the box, which people would be unwilling to do.

Before this, it was necessary to open the Apple TV box, remove the harddisk, hack the harddisk, and put it back in the Apple TV box. That is now unnecessary. The obvious next step is to remove the code that turns USB off, and you can boot from an external disk without ever opening or modifying the Apple TV itself.

gnasher729
Mar 27, 2007, 05:23 PM
Hackers these days can do it all. And people are worried that the iPhone will only run Apple approved apps. Just let these people get their hands on one and anything can happen.

There is a slight difference here. The first step to hacking the Apple TV was the obvious one to remove the harddisk. With any computer, you can open it, remove the harddisk, plug it into another computer, modify it and put it back in. That will be a lot lot more difficult with the iPhone. It will be more difficult to open (it may be impossible to open at all), and it has flash memory inside - much more difficult to remove and modify in another computer. The second step was going through USB; the iPhone has no USB.

pilotError
Mar 27, 2007, 06:28 PM
Now what? How is this helpful?

gnasher729 explained it pretty well.

You can create a bootable Darwin (the open source base code for OS X) to boot off of the external USB drive.

What this opens up is the possibility of automated scripts being placed in the Open Source boot image that mounts the internal drive and adds all the codecs to play xvid, wmv, etc., as well as ssh or VNC.

Once this is done once, you can now access the apple TV from your Mac / PC without using the external USB disk, and without having to void your warranty. If it doesn't work for you, restore the original boot image.

All the artificial limitations can now be removed. If the device can support things like 5.1 surround (still an issue right now), it may be possible to put together a driver that will support it.

Then there are the hackers who have to be the first to do something, just to prove they can do it. The World of Warcraft hack isn't very usable, but now he can say he did it.

It won't be too long before Linux and possibly some version of windows will be running on it.

Who knows, if the hackers expose its capabilities, Apple might just give in and support some additional codecs.

Peace
Mar 27, 2007, 06:29 PM
Interesting that the finder.app is run fullscreen..;)

smilanov74
Mar 27, 2007, 07:13 PM
I think someone asked about hooking this up to a projector. Of course you can, it just outputs a video signal. Most (all) have either HDMI, component or DVI inputs so you're good to go!

macintel4me
Mar 27, 2007, 07:53 PM
Is price the only value the AppleTV (hacked or not) has over a Mac Mini?

FleurDuMal
Mar 27, 2007, 07:57 PM
Is price the only value the AppleTV (hacked or not) has over a Mac Mini?

Well, smaller size, HDMI output and better version of Frontrow (though whether the AppleTV's Frontrow (if that is the right name for it) is coming to all Macs in Leopard is still to be seen).

zeppo93008
Mar 27, 2007, 08:24 PM
What is the purpose of rebooting AppleTV on a macbook. It does not make any sense in what anyone is trying to accomplish here. The purpose of AppleTV is to be able to pick up the tv programs and movies from another computer across the house. I think that it is great device to a certain extent, but I think that AppleTV is a piece of crap to the extent that you can not have closed caption or english subtitle for the hearing impaired. I see this so-called AppleTV video showing someone has accomplish some great feat that he was able to pull off the system software off of AppleTV and boot it up on the macbook. So what. I can take my hard drives from various apple computers and PCs and boot it up on a Apple Intel-chip computer. So, what is the big hype here. I think that there is one great advantage here with AppleTV is that I can change the size of the hard drive. That is good, but doen't AppleTV sync with your computer that has the programs and movies and plays them from your computer to AppleTV to your TV set. Hmmm. But still for me as a hearing-impaired person, I can't use it because it has NO closed caption. Bummer. Steve Jobs, you are a disappointment to the hearing impaired in the Apple Community. :-(

Konradx
Mar 27, 2007, 08:49 PM
I don't see why they would. Apple is not losing money on each device like sony does. Sony has economic interest to keep people from running homebrew (they recover the cost by selling games).

Apple does have itunes to sell stuff but since they haven't done anything about ipod firware why would they about the apple tv?

This is a good point.

Now let's see this thing boot OS X, Vista, and Linux off of assorted USB drives.

A $299 Apple Server!!!

Vist needs 10 gig of ram to run...you think this lil box could run vista? It would probably set fire

SeaFox
Mar 27, 2007, 09:17 PM
If nothing else, it means you can use a much larger external drive for storage without opening the Apple TV.

It also means one could use the Apple TV, yes, as a computer with your TV as the monitor. Not an incredibly powerful computer with tons of RAM, but a usable computer nevertheless.

Isn't there a way to upgrade the RAM? I remember that long specs list posted on the SomethingAwful forums where it specifically mentioned there being two RAM slots with only one having a DIMM in it.

Here is what people really wanted.

Now they can install this on a USB drive and re-boot the ATV and have a really nice Myth TV front end.

I think the Apple Front end is pretty nice looking, the only thing Myth-like that the Apple TV really needs is the ability to record TV shows off an external tuner module. And I guess a weather module wouldn't be bad. :D

Cool! :D This almost seems too good to be true. Is anyone else's cynical senses tingling? Like, Apple's gonna come along with a software update and BAM no more USB booting without special Apple encrypted boot loader something or other?

I do. Like an encrypted checksum value for the OS image that is verified at boot to ensure the OS hasn't been altered or added to.

APPLENEWBIE
Mar 27, 2007, 09:25 PM
OK, so where are we?

I'm curious for a non-technical-speak explanation of the current status of these developments.

Also, can someone explain whether these developments change what I saw yesterday at a apple store... I thought that the iTunes movie images being output on the HDTV's at the store by the :apple: TV looked Horrible... Very pixelly...

Also, would handbrake'd movies look better?

THanks for any explanations!

jsw
Mar 27, 2007, 09:35 PM
Also, would handbrake'd movies look better?Yes... I've had much better luck with non-Apple-provided content.

For what it's worth, though, some of the iTunes Music Store TV selections, particularly children's animated programs, aren't too bad.

As far as the current state: while it would seem many people might do lots of "Mac lite" enhancements to turn it into a mini Mac mini, I think that most people would be happy with a way to use an external USB drive to provide more storage and a few codecs to play different movie types. Other options would be nice, but I think those two things - more storage and more video options (including 1080p if possible) - would make most of us pretty happy.

deasine
Mar 27, 2007, 10:25 PM
I would dive for this :apple: TV if it can run OS X Leopard on it =D (Am I dreaming?) XD I don't mind having a $300 computer heeheehee....

I'm sure Apple purposely did not include things to block us from hacking. Their statement is simple:a "lighter" version of OS X does not mean it is that much less powerful. Or maybe Apple is already firing the ppl who made this (though I doubt this).

But as I said, I want OS X Leopard on this thing. I'll buy it FOR SURE NO MATTER WHAT.

backspinner
Mar 28, 2007, 12:29 AM
Well, smaller size, HDMI output and better version of Frontrow

component video as well, and no separate power brick, easier to open...

pilotError
Mar 28, 2007, 08:49 AM
Don't forget a better graphics card as well...

kalisphoenix
Mar 28, 2007, 02:45 PM
full glorious stereo sound instead of that poopy optical audio, a lot less HD space to waste, the thrill of "living on the edge" as you wonder how long your hacked :apple: TV will continue to go unnoticed by Apple devs, no unnecessary Bluetooth for wireless keyboards, no obsolete DVD drive to have to maintain, never having to worry about upgrading your RAM...

And yeah, the power brick on my Mac mini CD drives me crazy :rolleyes:

Wish I'd waited :p

surferfromuk
Mar 28, 2007, 04:13 PM
5.1 surround according to this apple TV hack wiki.


Tried & Working Video

720p Xvid
MKV with VLC (Coming in perian 1.0 for Quicktime)
.vob(DVDrip) with VLC (Menu, subtitles, 5.1 surround working)


http://wiki.awkwardtv.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

kalisphoenix
Mar 28, 2007, 05:03 PM
5.1 surround according to this apple TV hack wiki.

Tried & Working Video

720p Xvid
MKV with VLC (Coming in perian 1.0 for Quicktime)
.vob(DVDrip) with VLC (Menu, subtitles, 5.1 surround working)


http://wiki.awkwardtv.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

Not the same thing.

milo
Mar 28, 2007, 05:29 PM
Not the same thing.

Although it does demonstrate that the hardware can do 5.1, as many of us have said already.

EasyB
Mar 30, 2007, 12:22 AM
If this thing is like a real mac, this should be possible to hook up your Miglia box to it and have DVR capabilities.

cowm007
Apr 9, 2007, 11:24 PM
There is a slight difference here. The first step to hacking the Apple TV was the obvious one to remove the harddisk. With any computer, you can open it, remove the harddisk, plug it into another computer, modify it and put it back in. That will be a lot lot more difficult with the iPhone. It will be more difficult to open (it may be impossible to open at all), and it has flash memory inside - much more difficult to remove and modify in another computer. The second step was going through USB; the iPhone has no USB.
Good points, I was thinking of how they hacked the PSP a lot, but it had USB access to memory card and now you can just USB through to the actual flash areas.

localoid
Apr 10, 2007, 07:26 AM
Although it does demonstrate that the hardware can do 5.1, as many of us have said already.

Yes, 5.1 works (under the right conditions.)

A recent PC World article (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,130379-c,homemediacenter/article.html) elaborates on the 5.1 surround sound issue and Apple's take regarding 5.1 support...