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MacRumors
Mar 28, 2007, 07:41 AM
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An Ars Technica (http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/03/26/leopard-is-secretly-three-dimensional) blog entry claiming that one of Apple's secret Leopard features will be 3d user interfaces sparked a bit of discussion across the Mac web.

The article is self-described as "wild speculation" so no specific inside knowledge is claimed. The author imagines:

We've already seen the iPhone seamlessly zoom in, zoom out, and flip icons, windows, and screens. Think about what a real computer could do here. Cover flow and multi-party iChat video show a glimpse of what a 3D accelerated user interface could look like, with light sources, reflections, and more.

While this is based in speculation, we have heard rumors that much of Apple's new Finder interface will take advantage of the new technologies in Leopard -- specifically Core Animation. Apple is already promoting the use of Core Animation in building better user interfaces. From a WWDC 2007 session titled "Building Animated Cocoa User Interfaces":

Delight your users with dynamic, responsive user interfaces. In Leopard, standard AppKit NSViews can be rendered and animated using Core Animation. Learn how to combine familiar Cocoa controls, views, and event handling with the power of Core Animation layers to create stunning user interfaces.

Apple is already using Core Animation in Leopard's Time Machine (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html) and details about Core Animation's capabilities are listed on their site (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/coreanimation.html).



markfc
Mar 28, 2007, 07:46 AM
Sounds good!

Now lets speed this baby along so I can get my new MacBook!

Barabas
Mar 28, 2007, 07:48 AM
I've been waiting for this since the first Jurassic Park movie...

sionharris
Mar 28, 2007, 07:58 AM
"whatever vista can do, we will do better"

SheriffParker
Mar 28, 2007, 07:58 AM
I hope it makes Aero look like a socially challenged teenager from the early 90's.

yagran
Mar 28, 2007, 08:00 AM
mwhaha microsoft should have thought to emulate what leopard might be rather than copy tiger. haha. vista gets pwned again

MacVault
Mar 28, 2007, 08:03 AM
mwhaha microsoft should have thought to emulate what leopard might be rather than copy tiger. haha. vista gets pwned again

But, unlike Mac OS X, at least Vista is out :mad:

dmw007
Mar 28, 2007, 08:05 AM
I hope this is indeed a secret feature of Leopard, sounds pretty cool! :)

But, unlike Mac OS X, at least Vista is out :mad:

And it is not even as good as Mac OS X 10.4, so who cares? :confused: :rolleyes:

DeSnousa
Mar 28, 2007, 08:08 AM
IF this is indeed true, this new interface will blow the media off Vista. I think Steve Jobs is trying really hard to make Mac OS become a dominant OS and Leopard will have to be it with the release of Vista.

yagran
Mar 28, 2007, 08:09 AM
But, unlike Mac OS X, at least Vista is out :mad:

yeh. but vista = tiger, when was tiger out again? o yeh BEFORE VISTA.
leopard is the next gen! microsoft are just laggining behind.

siurpeeman
Mar 28, 2007, 08:11 AM
i've doubted the "top secret" features of leopard, but now i'm starting to believe they're there. i'm hoping for a new user interface, and i'm hoping it'll be better than anything we can imagine.

yagran
Mar 28, 2007, 08:13 AM
how much must it suck to boy a windows fanboy?! lol

justflie
Mar 28, 2007, 08:30 AM
i've doubted the "top secret" features of leopard, but now i'm starting to believe they're there. i'm hoping for a new user interface, and i'm hoping it'll be better than anything we can imagine.

I'd say the new UI is a slam dunk. Here's why: The same black (or dark gray) and white color scheme is popping up not only in Leopard builds (ie Time Machine, Quick Look, DVD player), but also in some very prominent Mac software titles (Toast Titanium, some bits of Acrobat, as well as in CS3, and on the lesser side of things, VLC in full screen mode). Unless all of these important software makers are taking a shot in the dark and all just happened to come up with very similar themes, I think this is what we will see in Leopard.

giganten
Mar 28, 2007, 08:31 AM
Interesting, could be cool.

zombitronic
Mar 28, 2007, 08:33 AM
I've speculated it before and I'll speculate it again...weighted, dynamic objects in a 3D UI! Please.

Veracon
Mar 28, 2007, 08:34 AM
To be honest I'm not too excited about this. I don't want to relearn using a computer just to use a new operating system, and I definitely don't want to learn something that's completely different from the other OS I use on a daily basis.

On the plus side, this almost obligates them to include some decent GPUs in the MacBooks.

johnee
Mar 28, 2007, 08:36 AM
do you think a feature like this would be better suited for mac osx 11.0? Or would this be a response/reaction to vista?

speaking of which....
when do we expect osx 11.0 ? :D :D

justflie
Mar 28, 2007, 08:36 AM
To be honest I'm not too excited about this. I don't want to relearn using a computer just to use a new operating system, and I definitely don't want to learn something that's completely different from the other OS I use on a daily basis.

On the plus side, this almost obligates them to include some decent GPUs in the MacBooks.

While I don't want to learn a new OS either, I don't think that's what it would be. Sure, it might take a few minutes to get the hang of it, but the idea behind this isn't (or at least shouldn't be) eye candy for the sake of eye candy. This type of thing would need to be functional, efficient, and intuitive, otherwise it's a waste of time (money) and system resources. I'm sure the engineers at Apple understand that, especially while working under SJ.

TheManOfSilver
Mar 28, 2007, 08:38 AM
4 words: Coverflow replaces the dock

Remember where you heard it first :p

zombitronic
Mar 28, 2007, 08:38 AM
To be honest I'm not too excited about this. I don't want to relearn using a computer just to use a new operating system, and I definitely don't want to learn something that's completely different from the other OS I use on a daily basis.

I feel your angst, but these are the kinds of things I look forward too. Welcome to the future.

nickane
Mar 28, 2007, 08:40 AM
I've been waiting for this since the first Jurassic Park movie...

That's exactly what I thought of when I read the article, only I was thinking of how pointlessly clunky it would be. I seem to remember joking about that UI with a room full of Maya guys recently, when we were discussing that movie's VFX. Why would anybody want 3D icons when they're moving a 2D cursor around a 2D display?

kw78
Mar 28, 2007, 08:41 AM
Imagine a 3D UI combined with a touchscreen or - KISS - a larger "widescreen" touchpad

serpico
Mar 28, 2007, 08:42 AM
Oh, great, more eye candy. How does this help me with improving my day to day tasks? Just bring out the new iPod already.:D

zombitronic
Mar 28, 2007, 08:44 AM
Anyone watch Cowboy Bebop? Ed's "swim-through" 3D web browser...how pointlessly cool would that be?

nickane
Mar 28, 2007, 08:46 AM
do you think a feature like this would be better suited for mac osx 11.0? Or would this be a response/reaction to vista?

speaking of which....
when do we expect osx 11.0 ? :D :D

Exactly. This won't be quite the overhaul ppl are making out. The 10.x releases have been fairly incremental despite all the hullaballoo they generate on MR. Leopard will probably be more substantial, because Vista finally poses a long-expected threat, but not by much. Its only been 2 years since Tiger came out, where as MS had almost 7 years since XP to pilfer 3-4 OSX releases worth of ideas.

But 11.0 can't be that far away: we're running out of cat names.

Evangelion
Mar 28, 2007, 08:46 AM
To be honest I'm not too excited about this. I don't want to relearn using a computer just to use a new operating system, and I definitely don't want to learn something that's completely different from the other OS I use on a daily basis.

On the plus side, this almost obligates them to include some decent GPUs in the MacBooks.

Well, people have migrated from CLI to GUI quite easily. What makes you think that any kind of change in the UI would be difficult to learn?

dmw007
Mar 28, 2007, 08:47 AM
But 11.0 can't be that far away: we're running out of cat names.

What do you mean, there are still a couple left. :p ;) :)

brianus
Mar 28, 2007, 08:53 AM
What do you mean, there are still a couple left. :p ;) :)

Apple has said they expect OS X to form the basis of their products for up to 20 years. I don't think they'll wait till 2021 to replace it, but it certainly won't be any time soon. And the replacement will not be called "OS 11" or "OS XI" (it may have the 11.x version number, but that won't be the product name).

At the current rate, maybe:

10.6 (cougar?) - 2009
10.7 (lynx?) - 2011
10.8 (lion?) - 2013
10.9 (puddy tat?) - 2015
11.0 - 2017

(and yes, nerds, of course they could do a 10.10, but you know they won't, so shaddup :rolleyes: )

bentoon
Mar 28, 2007, 08:53 AM
4 words: Coverflow replaces the dock

Remember where you heard it first :p

Interesting.
Apple could really blow us away here, and really redefine the finder and browsing but...
I doubt they will, they are kinda smart and change design stuff very slow.
Hope I am wrong.
I would LOVE to see a massive 3D interface. It's gonna come, Bring it on

justflie
Mar 28, 2007, 08:53 AM
Maybe OS 11 will have some kind of sweet holographic, interactive imagery. Kind of like the chess Data plays in Star Trek TNG :cool:

Lepton
Mar 28, 2007, 08:58 AM
Think of a 3D interface. Think of an iMac whose screen had multitouch, which sat on the desk at a 30 degree angle. Think of tap, drag, pinch...

Think of a line of Apple displays with built in multitouch...

Arcady
Mar 28, 2007, 09:00 AM
I've always wondered how he customized his login interface like that on Unix in 1993.

Because it was a Macintosh Quadra 700 running System 7.

RichP
Mar 28, 2007, 09:00 AM
I wouldnt worry, I dont think apple is going to completelyreinvent the OS here.

Some pseudo-3D features. that present themselves on the phone and other areas in appleworld, could make it in, and I welcome them! Expose and Dashboard have added some real, new functionality to OSX, Leopard hasnt really demonstrated an equivalent yet

(granted, time machine is a VERY smart idea, but "backing up" will never be "cool")

Lepton
Mar 28, 2007, 09:02 AM
Apple has said they expect OS X to form the basis of their products for up to 20 years. I don't think they'll wait till 2021 to replace it, but it certainly won't be any time soon. And the replacement will not be called "OS 11" or "OS XI" (it may have the 11.x version number, but that won't be the product name).

They'll wait till 2020 and call it Mac OS XX! :D

RichP
Mar 28, 2007, 09:02 AM
At the current rate, maybe:

10.6 (cougar?) - 2009
10.7 (lynx?) - 2011
10.8 (lion?) - 2013
10.9 (puddy tat?) - 2015
11.0 - 2017


OSX 10.10 Feral Kitten Edition

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 09:03 AM
I hope it makes Aero look like a socially challenged teenager from the early 90's.

Aero already looks like an immature... something. Actually, it seems to be Microsoft's philosophy overall; they seem to be into the "yeah, cool dude" style (Try to imagine someone saying it in a somewhat spaced-out and dumb manner). That style is quickly fading, in my opinion - it is too... immature, really.

Apple's style is more of a sophisticated, elegant, grown-up design. It seems more... mature, more proper. This style is in, I think.

I'd say the new UI is a slam dunk. Here's why: The same black (or dark gray) and white color scheme is popping up not only in Leopard builds (ie Time Machine, Quick Look, DVD player), but also in some very prominent Mac software titles (Toast Titanium, some bits of Acrobat, as well as in CS3, and on the lesser side of things, VLC in full screen mode). Unless all of these important software makers are taking a shot in the dark and all just happened to come up with very similar themes, I think this is what we will see in Leopard.

Actually, VLC is open source. Toast is probably copied off of Apple's other programs. But yes, Apple is moving towards an iTunes-y look and feel. But here's what throws me off: the drop-down list box shown on the New York Time's web page on the iPhone is styled differently to any Apple UI style I've ever seen.

nickane
Mar 28, 2007, 09:03 AM
Apple has said they expect OS X to form the basis of their products for up to 20 years. I don't think they'll wait till 2021 to replace it, but it certainly won't be any time soon. And the replacement will not be called "OS 11" or "OS XI" (it may have the 11.x version number, but that won't be the product name).

At the current rate, maybe:

10.6 (cougar?) - 2009
10.7 (lynx?) - 2011
10.8 (lion?) - 2013
10.9 (puddy tat?) - 2015
11.0 - 2017

(and yes, nerds, of course they could do a 10.10, but you know they won't, so shaddup :rolleyes: )

A cougar is a puma (10.1) and an ocelot is a leopard. It's been discussed before. There aren't enough cats to make it to 10.8 unless you have the domesticated/tabby/puddy/siamese cat. Besides the itty-bitty-putty-tat (aka 10.kitten) is what runs on iphone. :p

Evangelion
Mar 28, 2007, 09:03 AM
But 11.0 can't be that far away: we're running out of cat names.

We have had Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Tiger and Leopard. Still to be used:

- Lion
- Cougar
- Lynx
- Bobcat
- Sabretooth

If you want some less well-known species:

- Caraca
- Ocelot
- Serval

applekid
Mar 28, 2007, 09:04 AM
Kiss you battery life good-bye and possibly watch your laptop melt. If this requires some higher graphics processing and possibly more than 32 MB of VRAM (since that is the requirement to use Quartz Extreme), this will become bloatware, especially for laptops. Your laptop's GPU will be churning, turning up the fan, and draining your battery. Enjoy.

If Apple wants to implement 3D elements, they better plan on some good power management and efficient GPU cycles.

Roc
Mar 28, 2007, 09:04 AM
I can't remember where I read it but, with Leopard, Apple has eliminated (for now) input managers (not 100% sure what that means, See http://www.tuaw.com/2007/03/24/leopard-axing-input-managers/), according to that article items such as unsanity utilities won't work.

Which makes me think that there could be some major change that would eliminate the need for such utilities. With that said I hope the changes will be a good one as I don't know for how long I could go without windowshade.

Eagerly awaiting the outcome...

Roc

nickane
Mar 28, 2007, 09:05 AM
Think of a 3D interface. Think of an iMac whose screen had multitouch, which sat on the desk at a 30 degree angle. Think of tap, drag, pinch...

Think of a line of Apple displays with built in multitouch...

That seems to be everyone's thinking. Think different. :p

yagran
Mar 28, 2007, 09:07 AM
the drop-down list box shown on the New York Time's web page on the iPhone is styled differently to any Apple UI style I've ever seen.

could u gimme a link to this?

justflie
Mar 28, 2007, 09:07 AM
the drop-down list box shown on the New York Time's web page on the iPhone is styled differently to any Apple UI style I've ever seen.

Interesting. I just ran through the nytimes quickly but didn't see anything. Do you have a link? Now you have me curious! :p

Avatar74
Mar 28, 2007, 09:09 AM
One word:

Multitouch

louden
Mar 28, 2007, 09:10 AM
If there's all sorts of 3D graphics in Leopard, which would be cool, do you think the existing MacBooks with integrated graphics would be able to run them, or run them at an acceptable level?

I'd like to see what that experience is like on existing hardware.

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 09:11 AM
Kiss you battery life good-bye and possibly watch your laptop melt. If this requires some higher graphics processing and possibly more than 32 MB of VRAM (since that is the requirement to use Quartz Extreme), this will become bloatware, especially for laptops. Your laptop's GPU will be churning, turning up the fan, and draining your battery. Enjoy.

If Apple wants to implement 3D elements, they better plan on some good power management and efficient GPU cycles.

I'm not so sure... window management on the Mac already uses GPU. Apple will probably step up usage of the GPU in Leopard, but it probably won't make too big of a difference. My prediction is that Apple has a 50% chance of changing the entire look and feel of the OS to the iTunes look and feel (something that, as it is simply vector graphics and bitmaps stored in a single location shouldn't be hard to do... provided there is a new design).

I also predict that Apple may put a lot of subtle Core Animation into Leopard. Something I noticed while watching an Aero interface was that windows, when they were created, seemed to grow out of nowhere. Let's see Apple beat that. With Core Animation, Apple could probably do this in only a few lines of code.

I think Apple may also add animations as windows close or are zoomed. Say, an affect like happens on the dock?

I can't remember where I read it but, with Leopard, Apple has eliminated (for now) input managers (not 100% sure what that means, See http://www.tuaw.com/2007/03/24/leopard-axing-input-managers/), according to that article items such as unsanity utilities won't work.

Which makes me think that there could be some major change that would eliminate the need for such utilities. With that said I hope the changes will be a good one as I don't know for how long I could go without windowshade.

Eagerly awaiting the outcome...

Roc

Well, Apple did supposedly change completely how the UI is skinned. Aqua (blue and graphite) used to be stored somewhere somewhat obscure, but apparently now there is an actual bundle called "Aqua."

And for those who say Apple is going to introduce an Illuminous theme... I personally find it pretty unlikely, though possible. However, if you want to see something somewhat like an illuminous theme, invert your screen by pressing CTL-ALT-CMD-8.

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 09:12 AM
Interesting. I just ran through the nytimes quickly but didn't see anything. Do you have a link? Now you have me curious! :p

Look at it on the iPhone demos - that is what I am talking about.

sunfast
Mar 28, 2007, 09:14 AM
Let's all remember that this is "wild speculation" and thus probably better suited to Page 2!

Sounds cool though, hope Apple surprise us with Leopard :)

TheBobcat
Mar 28, 2007, 09:14 AM
We have had Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Tiger and Leopard. Still to be used:

- Lion
- Cougar
- Lynx
- Bobcat
- Sabretooth

If you want some less well-known species:

- Caraca
- Ocelot
- Serval

THANK YOU. IT BETTER HAPPEN!

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 09:15 AM
could u gimme a link to this?

Here:
http://www.apple.com/iphone/internet/

And I'll see if I can upload it...

mmzplanet
Mar 28, 2007, 09:17 AM
We have had Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Tiger and Leopard.


Hey! You forgot Panther;) Jaguar to Tiger is a nice jump :D

johnee
Mar 28, 2007, 09:18 AM
Maybe OS 11 will have some kind of sweet holographic, interactive imagery. Kind of like the chess Data plays in Star Trek TNG :cool:

actually, it's going to be an interface in which you get pulled into the computer and strange creatures like spiders and freaky motorcycles try to kill you as you prepare a chart for work.

wait....

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 09:19 AM
cheers

If you look closely, you can see why the iPhone is still in testing... the text in the drop-down list looks slightly off... actually, it is touching the left side of the list. Clearly a mistake.

tutubibi
Mar 28, 2007, 09:22 AM
I hope some of those 3D things on my 2D monitor will actually improve usability. So far, existing 3D desktops (Sun/Linux) did not really impress me as something actually helping me work faster.

I would hate if it was mostly just eye candy :mad: and the performance hog (see Vista :D )

yagran
Mar 28, 2007, 09:23 AM
warning this post may contain awesome speculation :rolleyes:

just imagine...

comes round to a special event in early may:

stevie j : "so we were going to release 10.5 a little while ago.. but then vista came out, so being nice, we thought we'd wait and give it a chance.. soo you see we had some spare time and so we carried on developing, and im pleased to say we are releasing not OSX10.5, not OSX10.6..thats right shipping today OSX 10.7! Its got an entirely new UI, youll love it..(*clicks his lil controller, to show a video of it in action*) BOOM!"

lol ok so this would never happen but it would be awesome and would sort out the whole "running out of cat names" thing :D

nickane
Mar 28, 2007, 09:26 AM
And for those who say Apple is going to introduce an Illuminous theme... I personally find it pretty unlikely, though possible. However, if you want to see something somewhat like an illuminous theme, invert your screen by pressing CTL-ALT-CMD-8.

Cheers, for that. That's wicked. I think I'm gonna be pranking every new mac user I know with that one over the coming weeks.

mrgreen4242
Mar 28, 2007, 09:28 AM
I've speculated it before and I'll speculate it again...weighted, dynamic objects in a 3D UI! Please.
If they do a 3D environment I also hope that they add weight and friction to the items.

To be honest I'm not too excited about this. I don't want to relearn using a computer just to use a new operating system, and I definitely don't want to learn something that's completely different from the other OS I use on a daily basis.

On the plus side, this almost obligates them to include some decent GPUs in the MacBooks.

On one hand, I agree with you. I'm not to keen on the idea being a replacement for what we have now. On the other hand having it added to the system as something you CAN use, but don't have to could be nice and like expose which took me a few months to really get used to using, it could slowly integrated itself into our daily habits.

4 words: Coverflow replaces the dock

Remember where you heard it first :p
Maybe it's just me but I find Coverflow annoying and useless. How is it more helpful or efficient than just a list. It doesn't even look that cool, imo. :/

Exactly. This won't be quite the overhaul ppl are making out. The 10.x releases have been fairly incremental despite all the hullaballoo they generate on MR. Leopard will probably be more substantial, because Vista finally poses a long-expected threat, but not by much. Its only been 2 years since Tiger came out, where as MS had almost 7 years since XP to pilfer 3-4 OSX releases worth of ideas.

But 11.0 can't be that far away: we're running out of cat names.

Do we know what sort of resources Apple is putting toward non OSX updates? I mean, they must have a team looking way forward as well as a couple other teams working on alternate versions of OSX...

Anyways, my take on this when I read it yesterday was that it could be useful if done correctly, but could really get in the way if done wrong. What I am thinking is that since Finder has sucked since, well, forever, that rather than overhaul the whole UI to include significant depth/Z-axis it will just be in Finder. All folders are smart folders, and you can build groups from different folders, as well as groups that are built automatically. One of the Finder views is a 3D cluster organized by groups, smart folders, etc.

You can move through it, rotate it, zoom in to the point of a full preview of any file, etc. By highlighting an item you can have the cluster reorganized based on association to that item. Clicking on a Word doc would regroup the cluster by keyword association, putting related documents nearby, and clicking on a media file would reorganize by file type and metadata. So, clicking on a Johnny Cash song would shuffle things so all Johnny Cash music is very close, all county music is peripheral, and then music in general near by, but not focused on.

This would let you work in a new way that might be useful, but wouldn't dramatically change the way you have to work. The overall UI is still the same, and you can still work through lists, thumbnails, folders, etc.

ricksbrain
Mar 28, 2007, 09:28 AM
To be honest I'm not too excited about this. I don't want to relearn using a computer just to use a new operating system, and I definitely don't want to learn something that's completely different from the other OS I use on a daily basis.

On the plus side, this almost obligates them to include some decent GPUs in the MacBooks.

Learning is our friend. The only thing that we can count on is that things change. If we don't change, it actually means we're falling behind. Come along for the ride and enjoy it!

yagran
Mar 28, 2007, 09:28 AM
Cheers, for that. That's wicked. I think I'm gonna be pranking every new mac user I know with that one over the coming weeks.

forget that go to your local apple store and do it, most of them dont know how to get it bk! lol. or pc world in the uk. pc world employees and macs is funny. theyz so dumb

Chef Medeski
Mar 28, 2007, 09:30 AM
And for those who say Apple is going to introduce an Illuminous theme... I personally find it pretty unlikely, though possible. However, if you want to see something somewhat like an illuminous theme, invert your screen by pressing CTL-ALT-CMD-8.
I think it actullay looks pretty good. I like the orange on black. Like seriously I would keep it that way if all the windows/picture werent inverted. I say go for it Apple.

tonyvz
Mar 28, 2007, 09:33 AM
OSX 10.10 Feral Kitten Edition

Isn't 10.10 the same as 10.1?

I believe that was claled Puma and released in 2002.

shawnce
Mar 28, 2007, 09:35 AM
But, unlike Mac OS X, at least Vista is out :mad:

???

Mac OS X 10.5 is on schedule ...

sigamy
Mar 28, 2007, 09:35 AM
The ALT + TAB feature in Vista is nice, it shows a 3d image of each app, instead of just the icon.

Things like this, that add some real value and not just eye candy, will be great to add to the OS.

I'm hoping 10.5 has features like this.

mrgreen4242
Mar 28, 2007, 09:36 AM
Isn't 10.10 the same as 10.1?

I believe that was claled Puma and released in 2002.

No. In computer software versioning the . isn't a decimal point, it's just a separator. So, 10.4.9 (the current OS) is major version 10 minor version 1 update 9. You can use any number in each place, so 10.10.10 (major 10, minor, 10, update 10) is perfectly valid. I've seen a few applications that use an additional separator for patches as well, so 10.10.10.10 is doable (major 10, minor 10, update 10, and the 10th patch since the last update). Apple doesn't do that as far as I can tell, though, they just release full updates.

yagran
Mar 28, 2007, 09:37 AM
Isn't 10.10 the same as 10.1?

I believe that was claled Puma and released in 2002.

sigh.

no m8, the dot is not a decimal point, it is just a divider

so OS 10.4.9 is revision 9 of the 4th revision of OS 10 :D

think, in maths you cant have two decimal points can you? so its not a decimal point. make sense?

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 09:38 AM
I think it actullay looks pretty good. I like the orange on black. Like seriously I would keep it that way if all the windows/picture werent inverted. I say go for it Apple.

I thought so too. Maybe someone can find a way to invert all pictures? Eh... maybe not. Finder looks like a creepy weirdo though. You can also see a white iPhone. Unfortunately screenshots of it don't work as it is still taking them non-inverted...

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 09:39 AM
The ALT + TAB feature in Vista is nice, it shows a 3d image of each app, instead of just the icon.

Things like this, that add some real value and not just eye candy, will be great to add to the OS.

I'm hoping 10.5 has features like this.

10.4 has something like that. (though not quite in 3d...) Press F9 on your keyboard. Or, if it is a MacBook/MacBook Pro, press Fn-F9. That is, in my opinion, significantly more useful than Vista ALT + TAB. The other day I had 15 or so documents I had to copy and paste from (all had a picture in them) it was invaluable.

mrrory
Mar 28, 2007, 09:44 AM
invert your screen by pressing CTL-ALT-CMD-8.

Sweet! I never knew you could do that! I'm a long time (16+ years) heavy mac user and I still enjoy discovering new things like that! Recently discovered holding down CTL+ Scrolling with the mighty mouse...

As for this thread, I find the most interesting comments to be those relating to how a significant upgrade will affect existing hardware. When I upgraded from Panther to Tiger, my G3 iBook 800Mhz, and PowerBook 1Ghz heated up dramatically, and appeared to lose a little "zip." If upgrading to Leopard similarly challenges my 2Ghz G5 iMac it would be a little frustrating that this, to some extent, would be forcing an upgrade of my hardware too. I also have a 2Ghz Core Duo iMac, and several Core 2 Duo iMacs, so it will be interesting to see how the upgrades compare. Alas, I think my PowerBook will have to remain a Tiger unless I can find some asbestos chaps!

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 28, 2007, 09:44 AM
Hopefully it's nothing too over the top, such as Vista's Aero function. It looks cool and whatnot, but after using it for a few minutes I knew I would hate to live with this. The current F9 function to lay out all open windows in a grid pattern is far more useful to me, I can see them all at the same time without having to shuffle through them like cards, and when I put the pointer over each it tells me what app I'm looking at. It's not particularly flashy, but it works oh so well for me.

I'm also hoping that these revisions, as others seem to be fearing, don't end up driving our rev A and B macbooks into obsolescence too quickly. I'd hate to hear my fans going like mad because my CPU is being worked overtime for just browsing through files with a pretty interface. So far Tiger has done none of these things, so I imagine Leopard will be pretty streamlined so that the later generation G4 powerbooks, iBooks and G4-5 Powermacs can use it just fine.

CaptainHaddock
Mar 28, 2007, 09:45 AM
Imagine a 3D UI combined with a touchscreen or - KISS - a larger "widescreen" touchpad

A widescreen touchpad sounds cool.

I love two-fingered scrolling on my Macbook Pro, but I realized today that I really want, is for the scrolling to have "inertia" like the iPhone has so the page keeps scrolling a bit after I take my fingers off the pad and I can get it going really fast with a few quick strokes. :)

StuPidQPid
Mar 28, 2007, 09:48 AM
We have had Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Tiger and Leopard. Still to be used:

- Lion
- Cougar
- Lynx
- Bobcat
- Sabretooth

If you want some less well-known species:

- Caraca
- Ocelot
- Serval

What about the Liger (and Tigon) :)

javi251
Mar 28, 2007, 09:49 AM
The ALT + TAB feature in Vista is nice, it shows a 3d image of each app, instead of just the icon.

Things like this, that add some real value and not just eye candy, will be great to add to the OS.

I'm hoping 10.5 has features like this.

Umm we already have Exposé which is way better then Vista's alt tab feature...

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 28, 2007, 09:51 AM
How come no one has mentioned Top Cat?

justflie
Mar 28, 2007, 09:53 AM
Here:
http://www.apple.com/iphone/internet/

And I'll see if I can upload it...

Ooooooh, I get it. I thought you meant on the NYTimes website (in safari) on the iPhone page. Now I understand. And yes, I agree, that pull down menu does look very different, much like Quick Look/Time Machines' UI's...

slffl
Mar 28, 2007, 09:57 AM
You've probably all seen the videos of the university students and others using their custom touch interfaces to play with Google Earth, photos, and more.

Well this is where I think (and hope) Apple is headed. I'm hoping for a completely touch-centric OS (of course you could still use a mouse). And with this OS, a laptop, that would convert from a regular laptop to a touch screen laptop by way of a twisting screen or something. I bet Apple would come up with a great design for this.

SpinThis!
Mar 28, 2007, 09:57 AM
I hope some of those 3D things on my 2D monitor will actually improve usability. I would hate if it was mostly just eye candy :mad:
Agreed. If you haven't seen it, check out this article: Vista's UI is a "step back" (http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/02/26/vistaui/). Frivolous animation just for the sake of animation is the wrong way forward. Also see Jakob Nielsen's article on Usability in the Movies (http://www.useit.com/alertbox/film-ui-bloopers.html) where he talks about how some UI's only have their place in hollywood. 3D animation (http://www.useit.com/alertbox/981115.html) is cool but can you tolerate it day-in and day-out? (For example the touch screen is great on a portable device such as the iPhone but it probably won't work so well on the desktop.) BumpTop (http://www.bumptop.com/) looks promising though...

At least the difference between Jobs and M$ is Apple (usually) knows when they're goving overboard; Microsoft imitates but never gets it right. I hope whatever Apple is planning they have firm guidelines on using animation or we're going to end up with applications that are about as usable as bad flash animations.

Mgkwho
Mar 28, 2007, 09:57 AM
I think we're all just elated to grasp any scrap of Leopard-talk we can find.

-=|Mgkwho

Highland
Mar 28, 2007, 09:58 AM
I'd say the new UI is a slam dunk. Here's why: The same black (or dark gray) and white color scheme is popping up not only in Leopard builds (ie Time Machine, Quick Look, DVD player), but also in some very prominent Mac software titles (Toast Titanium, some bits of Acrobat, as well as in CS3, and on the lesser side of things, VLC in full screen mode). Unless all of these important software makers are taking a shot in the dark and all just happened to come up with very similar themes, I think this is what we will see in Leopard.
Why would the VLC and Toast devs know about the top secret features that most Apple employees don't know about... the same features that haven't been leaked to the web. Don't take any notice of 3rd party apps, they don't have a thing to do with Apple's plans for OS X's UI.

One word:

Multitouch
I agree.

My guesses are multi touch (with new screens) and Front Row 2 (with some big enhancements), plus all the other stuff we know about (Core Anim, Time Machine etc). I'd say there will be more candy, but no "real" 3d in Leopard (ie. no big environment... it'll just be used for candy).

Bring on 10.5! It's going to rock.

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 09:58 AM
I'm also hoping that these revisions, as others seem to be fearing, don't end up driving our rev A and B macbooks into obsolescence too quickly. I'd hate to hear my fans going like mad because my CPU is being worked overtime for just browsing through files with a pretty interface. So far Tiger has done none of these things, so I imagine Leopard will be pretty streamlined so that the later generation G4 powerbooks, iBooks and G4-5 Powermacs can use it just fine.

As for this thread, I find the most interesting comments to be those relating to how a significant upgrade will affect existing hardware. When I upgraded from Panther to Tiger, my G3 iBook 800Mhz, and PowerBook 1Ghz heated up dramatically, and appeared to lose a little "zip." If upgrading to Leopard similarly challenges my 2Ghz G5 iMac it would be a little frustrating that this, to some extent, would be forcing an upgrade of my hardware too. I also have a 2Ghz Core Duo iMac, and several Core 2 Duo iMacs, so it will be interesting to see how the upgrades compare. Alas, I think my PowerBook will have to remain a Tiger unless I can find some asbestos chaps!

Actually, supposedly some of the OS updates actually ran faster than their predecessors. So it could go either way.

Ooooooh, I get it. I thought you meant on the NYTimes website (in safari) on the iPhone page. Now I understand. And yes, I agree, that pull down menu does look very different, much like Quick Look/Time Machines' UI's...

Yet completely different than iTunes' drop-down list. Or, mostly completely. Mostly, the arrow is a different color in the iPhone, where as on iTunes it is not...

Jim Campbell
Mar 28, 2007, 10:08 AM
Hopefully it's nothing too over the top, such as Vista's Aero function. It looks cool and whatnot, but after using it for a few minutes I knew I would hate to live with this. The current F9 function to lay out all open windows in a grid pattern is far more useful to me, I can see them all at the same time without having to shuffle through them like cards, and when I put the pointer over each it tells me what app I'm looking at. It's not particularly flashy, but it works oh so well for me.

Absolutely ... I'm a very late OSX adopter, having plodded on with 9.1 on my graphite G4 since '99 on the grounds that if it ain't broke (1) ... As a result, I've harboured a certain (unsubstantiated) antipathy for OSX, characterized by "But really, what does X do that Classic doesn't, other than do it with a slightly prettier front end?"

The addition of our Mac Mini, and some meaningful hands-on time with OSX, to the household has changed that. Expose, in particular, was a feature I'd seen but never used and genuinely couldn't see the point of it.

Except that you do have to use it to understand its usefulness ... it's simple and effective and the 3D Vista version adds a 'kewl' effect but simultaneously sacrifices its fundamental functionality.

Cheers!

Jim

(1) More accurately, don't fix it unless you want to upgrade all your peripherals and spend a small fortune buying new versions of your prehistoric software that has no upgrade path.

twoodcc
Mar 28, 2007, 10:16 AM
Sounds good!

Now lets speed this baby along so I can get my new MacBook!

that's what i'm saying......this sounds great! now i just can't wait for it!

koobcamuk
Mar 28, 2007, 10:18 AM
This is all ********.

Secondly, it will not be out in April. Stop talking about it like it will. It won't. It'll be good, but it won't be '3D' or something crazy. :cool:

joncelli
Mar 28, 2007, 10:21 AM
I hate to be a wet blanket on my first posting to the forum but the Ars Technica article is essentially content-free. The author goes off on a tangent about garbage collection and resolution independence and somehow comes around to conclude it means 3-D interfaces. The commenters jumped all over him, as you can see. There may be Vista-like 3-D-ish graphical candy in Leopard, but it will not be a real 3-D interface.

Like I say, sorry to be a killjoy. :(

digitalbiker
Mar 28, 2007, 10:22 AM
Think of a 3D interface. Think of an iMac whose screen had multitouch, which sat on the desk at a 30 degree angle. Think of tap, drag, pinch...

Think of a line of Apple displays with built in multitouch...

God, I hope not! My hand gets tired enough just moving a mouse a few inches all day. I sure don't want to be dragging and pinching my expensive monitor all day.

Plus my process would have go something like this;

"touch screeen, drag file 20 inches across screen to folder. Grab screen cleaner. Spray & wipe. Tap dock. Reach 19 inches to file menu. Tap file menu. Reach 10 inches to desired file. Tap file. Grab screen cleaner. Spray & wipe. Etc. Etc. Etc..."

Touch screens for larger monitors is a bad idea. Touch screen on 3" displays, maybe not so bad. So far I have never met a touch screen that I was extremely pleased with.

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 10:22 AM
Except that you do have to use it to understand its usefulness ... it's simple and effective and the 3D Vista version adds a 'kewl' effect but simultaneously sacrifices its fundamental functionality.


That 'Kewl' effect... well, to me, Apple seems to add things "unobtrusively." Meaning that they make it not take (much) extra time to do anything. For instance, the minimize function takes very very little time to perform, as does the reverse. Also, F9 happens in under a second, actually, maybe under half a second. It may look cool if you held down shift while pressing F9, but it isn't practical.

As for 'kewl', Microsoft seems all about making things that are meant to be 'kewl'. This concept, which is the concept behind Xbox 360's design is, in my opinion, fading in popularity. Microsoft tried to use it in the Zune, and is using it in Aero.

To me, it looks like the kind of design that would be popular for teenage boys who wear extremely baggy clothes and plop down violently on the couch - a trend which is fading.

pale9
Mar 28, 2007, 10:25 AM
give it to me baby, uh huh uh huh, und dos tres, quattro cinco cinco seis...

justflie
Mar 28, 2007, 10:29 AM
Why would the VLC and Toast devs know about the top secret features that most Apple employees don't know about... the same features that haven't been leaked to the web. Don't take any notice of 3rd party apps, they don't have a thing to do with Apple's plans for OS X's UI.

I beg to differ. While VLC was probably a bad example, what about Adobe? They've been working closely with Apple getting CS3 ready for Leopard. I would bet my bottom dollar they have a more advanced build than what the developers have. They would also know the UI scheme. With a suite of applications as CS3 is to pros (and pro hardware sales for Apple), Adobe has more of a clue of what's going on than the rest of us, that's for damn sure.

akadmon
Mar 28, 2007, 10:37 AM
But 11.0 can't be that far away: we're running out of cat names.


Oh yeah? What's wrong with Felix, Morris or, for that matter, Jinx?

Want more ideas? Then check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_cats

TomSmithMacEd
Mar 28, 2007, 10:40 AM
Why does Apple always need to copy Windows?!

http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/vista/5342/Flip%203D.JPG

(sarcasim...)

shigzeo
Mar 28, 2007, 10:44 AM
IF this is indeed true, this new interface will blow the media off Vista. I think Steve Jobs is trying really hard to make Mac OS become a dominant OS and Leopard will have to be it with the release of Vista.

but i fail to see what is so hoho about vista. the transparencies are done perfect microsoft style - the the effect that they are hard to read and not done to frugality, but overblown. there is nothing that is needed or even that great about aero or whatever. what explorer does better than finder is that you can from save dialogues access any disk, rename, edit, copy transfer files, rename files and folders and then if you want - save a file. finder is very limited in its access to very basic osx functions.

they need to beef up not just the look of finder (though i do not mind it at all) but give it functionality and i would never have to download 3rd party apps to get it to be a friendly as windows explorer.

dashiel
Mar 28, 2007, 10:45 AM
guys the new ui has been out for months and ironically it seems to be taking cues from vista. apple has already stated the iphone is running a version of OS X leopard. also itunes/ilife has always been a precursor to interface changes in OS X. i don't believe these two releases capture all of the tweaks, but some elements that are i'm very confident of:


brushed metal is dead.
non-unified windows are dead (we will have one window type now for everything but speciality applications - garage band, delicious monster)
jelly buttons will be used much less frequently, if at all -- think important places like "ok/cancel" dialogs, not scrollbars and play buttons
look for smoother/matte more unified interface widgets (buttons and scroll bars, not dashboard widgets)
color scheme is going to shift from the neutral grays to gray's with a purple tint (seen in iphone and pro apps)
animation will be important
more transparency and slick/glossy black elements (think a cross between the HUDs from iphoto/final cut and the overlays in the iphone gui)


i don't think it's going to be as big a change as 9 to X, more of a refinement and consistency brush painted across the whole thing. similar to what happened with system 6 to system 7... in the intervening years since mac os 1, new interface ideas were developed both by apple and third party vendors and the OS was beginning to look like a patchwork of GUI concepts. system 7 reset that, the OS 8 did again.

Skrilla™
Mar 28, 2007, 10:46 AM
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=3484223&postcount=18 repost! ;)

mwhaha microsoft should have thought to emulate what leopard might be rather than copy tiger. haha. vista gets pwned again

and how did vista get pwned? you and everybody else here has no idea what (if any!) UI changes are coming in Leopard!

Nitromaster
Mar 28, 2007, 10:54 AM
i bet its just compiz intergrated within osx,

why not?
Compiz rules and blows vistas 1 effect away.

FJ218700
Mar 28, 2007, 10:55 AM
God, I hope not! My hand gets tired enough just moving a mouse a few inches all day. I sure don't want to be dragging and pinching my expensive monitor all day.

I agree, but wouldn't object to a scaled multitouch trackpad.

Skrilla™
Mar 28, 2007, 10:56 AM
I've been waiting for this since the first Jurassic Park movie...

you have been wasting your time then, its been out for ages:

http://www.sgi.com/fun/freeware/3d_navigator.html

http://www.sgi.com/fun/images/fsn.map2.jpg

BoRegardless
Mar 28, 2007, 10:59 AM
To be honest I'm not too excited about this. I don't want to relearn using a computer just to use a new operating system, and I definitely don't want to learn something that's completely different from the other OS I use on a daily basis.

I've used the Macs since day one, with the first MacPlus I bought.

What has happened is now nearly all document work is done on a smallish laptop screen as the laptops have gotten more powerful, and virtually even higher end software run on laptops just fine.

Over 20 years that has meant I, and many other Mac users, may keep 6-10 or more applications with documents open (Safari, Mail, MSWord, Excel, Acrobat, CAD, BBEdit) each with multiple windows open. It can be a mental mess to deal with. Likewise the Finder column views lead to some order, but when you get complex (30,000+ files), it can be hard to get to or find items even with Spotlight.

Viewing Solid Objects:
3D CAD systems have revolutionized the creation and visualization of objects for design & manufacturing, directly benefiting Apple in creating all its hardware, and Apple has lived that evolution. Pro Engineer, Unigraphics, SolidWorks, Ashlar and other 3D CAD have given an idea of how to allow concepts to be zoomed, rotated, and panned across a limited screen space so a user can examine an entire complex 'system' with a laptop, down to the smallest detail only a fraction of a thousandth of an inch if needed. (I use SolidWorks on a Boot Camped partition for my work)

I would not be surprised to see an ability to treat Application Arenas full of their documents and the Finder views become objects treated more like 3D CAD objects that lets a user resize (zoom), rotate into the next Appl. Arena, or Pan Sideways into a group of documents which are currently "off screen". If it is done right, I think it will be easily learned by those who have a need for complex work with many documents and applications open at once.

It is all about ease of use, recognizable objects, speed and consistency in allowing easier and faster work with less stress on the user: An Easy User Interface.

I think it is possible, and I know that the mechanical design guys at Apple (Including Ives) have lived with 3D CAD nearly their entire professional lives. Having used SolidWorks 3D CAD (& others) for 10 years, I think Jobs & Ives & crew have worked out the details of how to at least start this progression into manipulating virtual 3D views in a near intuitive way that makes computer use simpler, more logical and faster for the user.

Multimedia
Mar 28, 2007, 11:03 AM
...this almost obligates them to include some decent GPUs in the MacBooks.The Intel GMA X3000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA#GMA_X3000) going into Santa Rosa is way more robust than the current GMA 950 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA#GMA_950). I'm not sure why you are speculating what GPU will be in the next MacBook unless you are unaware it will be the X3000 which we have known since last year.

zblaxberg
Mar 28, 2007, 11:04 AM
how about leopard on an ipod??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9teB3cgZGcw

check out this movie too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6WILjt1cw0

yagran
Mar 28, 2007, 11:08 AM
and how did vista get pwned? you and everybody else here has no idea what (if any!) UI changes are coming in Leopard!

lets be honest . vista pwns itself! it wees its pants at the thought of facing up to leopard.

surferfromuk
Mar 28, 2007, 11:11 AM
I am willing to be 'pleasantly surprised' but I don't see the kind of total revolution people are expecting to come in 10.5 unless somewhere Apple have their own Xerox Parc thing going on that we don't know about. Maybe an OSX 11 perhaps...but a 10.5 ?.

Fundamentally neither OSX or Windows have made a substantial paradigm shift from the researches done over 30 years ago, indeed I believe there are still research elements and ideologies that remain untapped even today.

That's not to say OSX hasn't substantially evolved into the most refined, efficient, fun and exquisite user interface available to the modern world today.

Quite clearly it has but that said the 3D window in Vista genuinely gives expose a run for it's money but is a one trick pony. I would certainly welcome a 'new approach' if it's truly as remarkable an invention as the 'fork' in a world that has hitherto only know finger eating. Multi-touch appears to hold all that promise for me.

I'd say 'this thing' your all imagining is more likely to come from a couple of hackers in a garage somewhere and right now they're too busy playing with their PS3's to get it finished!...then Apple will buy it and if it works use it. Steve, ( and Bill) for that matter aren't going to allow a 'couple of goofy upstarts' to queer their patch the way they did!!

Of course I would LOVE for Apple to do something genuinely radical but part of me wonders if Apple is simply too huge to make such 'revolutionary' departures anymore.

Shadow
Mar 28, 2007, 11:12 AM
It's good news, but I am perfectly happy with Tiger and wont upgrade to Leopard until its stable (looking at you, 10.4.0). Having said that, Leopard will blow away Vista, I have no doubt about that.

motulist
Mar 28, 2007, 11:13 AM
I voted negative on this article, I believe my first neg vote ever.

"The article is self-described as "wild speculation" "

This article is just wild speculation, it basically sounds like pure guessing. If this was a page 2 report it'd be fine, but there's nothing to see here folks, move along.

shigzeo
Mar 28, 2007, 11:28 AM
Sweet! I never knew you could do that! I'm a long time (16+ years) heavy mac user and I still enjoy discovering new things like that! Recently discovered holding down CTL+ Scrolling with the mighty mouse...

As for this thread, I find the most interesting comments to be those relating to how a significant upgrade will affect existing hardware. When I upgraded from Panther to Tiger, my G3 iBook 800Mhz, and PowerBook 1Ghz heated up dramatically, and appeared to lose a little "zip." If upgrading to Leopard similarly challenges my 2Ghz G5 iMac it would be a little frustrating that this, to some extent, would be forcing an upgrade of my hardware too. I also have a 2Ghz Core Duo iMac, and several Core 2 Duo iMacs, so it will be interesting to see how the upgrades compare. Alas, I think my PowerBook will have to remain a Tiger unless I can find some asbestos chaps!

hmmm... when i upgraded to tiger from panther on my 1ghz ibook, it was slower for 3 months then 10.4.3 came and it was very like purchasing ram and a faster hd... the computer ran faster

lazyrighteye
Mar 28, 2007, 11:40 AM
I thought so too. Maybe someone can find a way to invert all pictures? Eh... maybe not. Finder looks like a creepy weirdo though. You can also see a white iPhone. Unfortunately screenshots of it don't work as it is still taking them non-inverted...

Huh. White iPhone actually looks kinda cool...

Snowy_River
Mar 28, 2007, 11:41 AM
but i fail to see what is so hoho about vista. the transparencies are done perfect microsoft style - the the effect that they are hard to read and not done to frugality, but overblown. there is nothing that is needed or even that great about aero or whatever. what explorer does better than finder is that you can from save dialogues access any disk, rename, edit, copy transfer files, rename files and folders and then if you want - save a file. finder is very limited in its access to very basic osx functions.

they need to beef up not just the look of finder (though i do not mind it at all) but give it functionality and i would never have to download 3rd party apps to get it to be a friendly as windows explorer.

This, imo, has to do with open and save dialog boxes in OS X doing what they're supposed to. In other words, I feel that Windows is doing it wrong. I has nothing to do with the Finder or Explorer. It has to do with the functionality of default dialog boxes. If you want to move files around, why would you open your save dialog box?

All of that being said, if it works for you, more power to you. I just don't see that it makes sense, and I like the way that Apple has, in general, made a point of creating an operating system that makes sense.

louden
Mar 28, 2007, 11:42 AM
Aero already looks like an immature... something. Actually, it seems to be Microsoft's philosophy overall; they seem to be into the "yeah, cool dude" style (Try to imagine someone saying it in a somewhat spaced-out and dumb manner). That style is quickly fading, in my opinion - it is too... immature, really.


I agree, Aero looks cool, but isn't extremely useful. However, aero is just as theme - the fact that 3D graphics are built into Windows is the important thing. Check out wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Presentation_Foundation) for more information.

To me, Vista (however slow it is) is a step towards revamping the UI. The important thing is, it will be easy to change as people think of creative ways to exploit 3D. I'm sure a year from now there'll be really cool things you can do with either Apple or MS's 3D interface and I'm sure there will be all sorts of copying going on.

As always - I love the mac for what it does well, and I love the PC for what it does well. I'm a pacifist in the OS wars...

dashiel
Mar 28, 2007, 11:52 AM
I am willing to be 'pleasantly surprised' but I don't see the kind of total revolution people are expecting to come in 10.5 unless somewhere Apple have their own Xerox Parc thing going on that we don't know about. Maybe an OSX 11 perhaps...but a 10.5 ?.

it's so nice to see some people with realistic expectations.

dernhelm
Mar 28, 2007, 11:54 AM
I just hope they do this tastefully (if they do it at all). My mind keeps going back to the <blink> tag of the 1980s. Aggghhhh!

The last thing I need is my desktop rolling and flashing at me like an ad-infested web page.

Fukui
Mar 28, 2007, 12:01 PM
Yea, but, the Finder is Carbon to its core, and the UI doesn't use Cocoa Nibs, so I'm not sure how this is gonna pan out...

motulist
Mar 28, 2007, 12:03 PM
My mind keeps going back to the <blink> tag of the 1980s. Aggghhhh!

Um, the blink tag is an html element, and html wasn't really even used until the 1990's. I think your history is off by a decade.

bigbossbmb
Mar 28, 2007, 12:05 PM
the people that believe Apple will introduce Core Animation and NOT actually use it in the Leopard UI are delusional... It will be implemented as much as possible. This is the first Core architechure that can have a large impact on the UI. They will not wait until OS 11 to change the UI. I think they will not only try to get a unified look within the OS, but hopefully a unified look between devices, as well.

Shagrat
Mar 28, 2007, 12:11 PM
How come no one has mentioned Top Cat?
...or Snagglepuss, already?

(Exit..stage left!)

FaasNat
Mar 28, 2007, 12:17 PM
Hmmm, I wonder if things will be similar to Looking Glass.....

dernhelm
Mar 28, 2007, 12:21 PM
Um, the blink tag is an html element, and html wasn't really even used until the 1990's. I think your history is off by a decade.

Yup - you're right! I've been programmer since well before HTML, and when you get old like me - it all runs together.

:D

Since then I looked it up on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink_tag) to see the actual date of inclusion, I didn't find that, but I love this line:
"the only correct use of blink tags is to write the sentence: Schrödinger's cat is <blink>not</blink> dead".

That is way too funny.

Mac Fly (film)
Mar 28, 2007, 12:21 PM
Nicely spotted 'Coreweb', this could be what Leopard drop down menus look like. I hope it is cause I don't like Aqua myself:



Current OS X drop down;..........................................iPhone drop down (possibly in Leopard);

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/158/437740260_6dbc3cc834_o.png....................http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/437749408_76099f5989_o.png



Much simpler and sleeker looking IMO.

savar
Mar 28, 2007, 12:23 PM
I voted negative on this article, I believe my first neg vote ever.

"The article is self-described as "wild speculation" "

This article is just wild speculation, it basically sounds like pure guessing. If this was a page 2 report it'd be fine, but there's nothing to see here folks, move along.

It's not only wild speculation, it's also probably the least factual article I ever read over at Ars.

Even the author's understanding of the core technologies is flawed.

Of course, I'm not saying a new UI isn't likely. It is. And OS X already has a lot of 3d cues, so I imagine they will be adding more as more people have the requisite GPUs now. But it won't be like that 3-d OS in Jurassic Park or the Looking Glass concept. It will be the same basic metaphors, overlaid with more 3d cues.

savar
Mar 28, 2007, 12:24 PM
Yea, but, the Finder is Carbon to its core, and the UI doesn't use Cocoa Nibs, so I'm not sure how this is gonna pan out...

Finder might be Cocoa in Leopard, though. It has to get re-written at some point, right? Why not now?

Fotek2001
Mar 28, 2007, 12:26 PM
The number of posters here who clearly have not read the original ArsTechnica post is amazing. The blog article is a load of crap and was obviously written by someone who has no idea what garbage collection is and what it's used for.

All the positive comments and 'Yay this is so kewl' posters should really take a minute to think about what they're talking about before they put finger to keyboard.

:rolleyes:

apb3
Mar 28, 2007, 12:27 PM
We have had Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Tiger and Leopard. Still to be used:

- Lion
- Cougar
- Lynx
- Bobcat
- Sabretooth

If you want some less well-known species:

- Caraca
- Ocelot
- Serval

This got me thinking.... anyone know the history of WWII German tank names? I know it went something like Panther, Tiger, Leopard. Is that right? And were there others before/after?

I should know this but do not. It'd be a weird "coincidence" no?:eek:

MrSmith
Mar 28, 2007, 12:27 PM
At the current rate, maybe:

10.6 (cougar?) - 2009
10.7 (lynx?) - 2011
10.8 (lion?) - 2013
10.9 (puddy tat?) - 2015
11.0 - 2017

(and yes, nerds, of course they could do a 10.10, but you know they won't, so shaddup :rolleyes: )

Ahh, this is why I joined. But, anyway, a 3D OS on a 2D screen is 2D. It's a tool to get work done, music listened to, photos filed, tweaked and printed, videos produced. Until the hologram replaces the screen, I suggest feet remain on the sod.

g.hobi
Mar 28, 2007, 12:28 PM
this reminds me of the "old" rumors about piles in osx:

http://www.macrumors.com/2003/04/13/panther-feature-piles/

http://www.asktog.com/columns/035SquanAdv.html

Although I must admit not having much idea about it. But I guess 3D would be helpfull for using piles.

iJawn108
Mar 28, 2007, 12:31 PM
Their going to use a touch interface and piles :O

scrambledwonder
Mar 28, 2007, 12:33 PM
What do you mean, there are still a couple left. :p ;) :)

Mac OS 11 Ocelot.

scrambledwonder
Mar 28, 2007, 12:42 PM
Apple has said they expect OS X to form the basis of their products for up to 20 years. I don't think they'll wait till 2021 to replace it, but it certainly won't be any time soon. And the replacement will not be called "OS 11" or "OS XI" (it may have the 11.x version number, but that won't be the product name).

At the current rate, maybe:

10.6 (cougar?) - 2009
10.7 (lynx?) - 2011
10.8 (lion?) - 2013
10.9 (puddy tat?) - 2015
11.0 - 2017

(and yes, nerds, of course they could do a 10.10, but you know they won't, so shaddup :rolleyes: )

In 2021 they'll integrate automated weather forecasting (to avoid freak tornadoes and class-VI storms triggered by global warming), a bug-detection system (to find hidden government listening devices), Geiger counter (to detect radioactive fallout from all the dirty bombs) water tester (to find potable water) and a bullet-proof sheath.

For real.

Read the other news.

2021! HA!

Chris Bangle
Mar 28, 2007, 12:42 PM
Yes i think this is the end of the jelly beans and all this childishjelly stuff. Ive had enough of these stupid blue scroll bars. bring on the grey

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 28, 2007, 12:51 PM
Show of hands. How many of you guys will just be testing Leopard-loaded demo macs weeks or even months before actually purchasing it? Time machine is mainly the thing I'm interested in, and I'm willing to pay the $129 for this and a finished bootcamp alone. But just the same I'd prefer not to suffer the plight of the first wave. I see no reason to jump on new OS's the moment they come out, but I hope enough early adopters snag it quickly and start posting their cheers and gripes to give me a general idea of some of the more important flaws and improvements. I've only had Tiger for a year, I can definitely bear to stay with it a bit longer.

ATG
Mar 28, 2007, 12:51 PM
So like beryl then? Sounds good!

ATG
Mar 28, 2007, 12:53 PM
Show of hands. How many of you guys will just be testing Leopard-loaded demo macs weeks or even months before actually purchasing it? Time machine is mainly the thing I'm interested in, and I'm willing to pay the $129 for this and a finished bootcamp alone. I see no reason to jump on new OS's the moment they come out, but I hope enough early adopters snag it quickly and start posting their cheers and gripes to give me a general idea of some of the more important flaws and improvements. I've only had Tiger for a year, I can definitely bear to stay with it a bit longer.

Not me. I'm going to preorder from the Apple Online Store. I got tiger 1 day before the offical launch! :D

EDIT: Oops, sorry for the double post. I'm sure I clicked edit

dazzer21
Mar 28, 2007, 12:57 PM
I've either completely missed it whilst reading all of this, or no-ones brought it up. With the mention of anticipated mutitouch screens and trackpads to navigate through virtual 3D worlds, surely these are hardware requirements as opposed to just being able to enable these features via software upgrades? I can't do two-finger scrolling on my G4 400MHz Titanium Powerbook like the later models can for instance.

I'm desperate for 10.5 to walk all over Vista, and I'm sure it will, but the mention of flashy 3D interfaces is, at the end of the day, only going to mean one thing. We've seen it with Vista and it will happen with 10.5 if Apple aren't careful - if people are going to want to run this new powerhouse of an OS, then a lot of them are going to find their machines are obsolete overnight.

It will be interesting to see if there is a cutoff in terms of system requirements.

surferfromuk
Mar 28, 2007, 01:00 PM
I doubt they'll ever use vertical piles. I can't see Steve coming on stage at Macworld and celebrating the

a) 'Heaps of documents randomly piled up like socks in a wash-basket. It's just some data-garbage I couldn't give a toss about enough to spend 5 seconds 'putting it away properly. I'm so lazy I can't even be arsed to bin it' pile.

or the

b) here's a neat pile - only I have no idea what's in it until I start fanning it about like some demented gambler. Oh how do I extract that document there so I can chuck it in the 'messy pile again ?' Pile.

Just pointless gimmickry...


The 'horizontal pile' (or 'filing cabinet' ) view is fine for Time Machine - great lateral use of time and space.

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 01:04 PM
The number of posters here who clearly have not read the original ArsTechnica post is amazing. The blog article is a load of crap and was obviously written by someone who has no idea what garbage collection is and what it's used for.

All the positive comments and 'Yay this is so kewl' posters should really take a minute to think about what they're talking about before they put finger to keyboard.

:rolleyes:

I read the original ArsTechnica post. It was a lump of steaming, juicy crap. But I decided to take this opportunity to talk about Leopard's UI.

As for my personal use of the... erm... word? 'kewl'... I was using it to describe how Microsoft was going about things. Don't know about others' use.

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 28, 2007, 01:09 PM
Not me. I'm going to preorder from the Apple Online Store. I got tiger 1 day before the offical launch! :D

EDIT: Oops, sorry for the double post. I'm sure I clicked edit

Guinea pigs unite! :D

I kid, have fun!

woolfgang
Mar 28, 2007, 01:09 PM
IF this is indeed true, this new interface will blow the media off Vista. I think Steve Jobs is trying really hard to make Mac OS become a dominant OS and Leopard will have to be it with the release of Vista.

I really believe this is a Tortoise and Hare kind of thing. It would be interesting to see ten years from now and see where it's at.

inkswamp
Mar 28, 2007, 01:16 PM
I agree, Aero looks cool, but isn't extremely useful. However, aero is just as theme - the fact that 3D graphics are built into Windows is the important thing.

The primary issue I see with a lot of the eye candy in Vista is that a lot of it is there just for the sake of being there. A lot of people complained about OS X's eye candy at first, but if you look at it, almost all of it serves an actual purpose. There isn't a lot of gratuitous use. I heard a lot of people gripe about the Genie effect of windows shrinking to the Dock, but when you think about it, it actually pinpoints exactly where the window has gone. In an unconscious way, it actually serves a purpose.

A good example from what I've seen of Vista using effects but not having much reason is their version of Expose. Having all the windows lined up like that would be nightmarish. Imagine if you have 20 Word documents open and have to see them overlapping like that. It seems that it would be more confusing than useful. The OS X approach of shrinking everything so you can see the whole document seems a better use of "eye candy."

kresh
Mar 28, 2007, 01:16 PM
This got me thinking.... anyone know the history of WWII German tank names? I know it went something like Panther, Tiger, Leopard. Is that right? And were there others before/after?

I should know this but do not. It'd be a weird "coincidence" no?:eek:

A blogger made this connection in January: http://ormset.no/wordpress/?p=152

jakemikey
Mar 28, 2007, 01:19 PM
I think Apple's losing their edge. They're the last to this game, behind Linux (#1) and Vista (#2). I'm sure some of what will come will be implemented in a slicker way, but 1) beryl devs will clone whatever Apple comes up with in about three days, meaning I can get the same stuff for free, and 2) it won't be nearly as extensible as what's available for Linux

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 01:22 PM
I think Apple's losing their edge. They're the last to this game, behind Linux (#1) and Vista (#2). I'm sure some of what will come will be implemented in a slicker way, but 1) beryl devs will clone whatever Apple comes up with in about three days, meaning I can get the same stuff for free, and 2) it won't be nearly as extensible as what's available for Linux

Vista is in no way #2. Vista's so-called 3D Aero functions are really just useless. So is the transparency stuff, actually. Apple used to have transparency, JUST LIKE VISTA. Apple removed it in Panther, as it was distracting. Apparently, Microsoft didn't copy that...

Nitromaster
Mar 28, 2007, 01:23 PM
So like beryl then? Sounds good!

Hopefully, i want them to include compiz/beryl with osx.5,

BoyBach
Mar 28, 2007, 01:26 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

An Ars Technica (http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/03/26/leopard-is-secretly-three-dimensional) blog entry claiming that one of Apple's secret Leopard features will be 3d user interfaces sparked a bit of discussion across the Mac web.

The article is self-described as "wild speculation" so no specific inside knowledge is claimed. The author imagines:



While this is based in speculation, we have heard rumors that much of Apple's new Finder interface will take advantage of the new technologies in Leopard -- specifically Core Animation. Apple is already promoting the use of Core Animation in building better user interfaces. From a WWDC 2007 session titled "Building Animated Cocoa User Interfaces":



Apple is already using Core Animation in Leopard's Time Machine (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html) and details about Core Animation's capabilities are listed on their site (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/coreanimation.html).


Surely this story should be on Page 2?

50548
Mar 28, 2007, 01:28 PM
Cheers, for that. That's wicked. I think I'm gonna be pranking every new mac user I know with that one over the coming weeks.

Apple is wonderful, isn't it? The effect works like a charm...

And for those talking about Vista, pllllllllease...MS is pretty much moribund right now...the only thing they can kinda brag about is XBox against PS3...the rest is just a box full of flops, nothing else. 10.5 will just extend the lead in OSs...GO APPLE!

Evangelion
Mar 28, 2007, 01:28 PM
This got me thinking.... anyone know the history of WWII German tank names? I know it went something like Panther, Tiger, Leopard. Is that right? And were there others before/after?

I should know this but do not. It'd be a weird "coincidence" no?:eek:

There were (among others):

Panther
Tiger
Königstiger (King Tiger)
Jagdpanther (hunting panther)
Jagdtiger (hunting tiger)
Marder (Weasel)
Nashorn (Rhino)

German main battle tanks were and are named after big cats, like Apple does with their OS'es ;). Marder and Nashorn were tank-destroyers, as were Jagdpanther and Jagdtiger (those two were named after Panther and Tiger, because they were based on those two tanks). The name Leopard came after WW2. However, the two most widely used tanks in Wehrmach were Panzer III and Panzer IV. And besides those, there were also assault-guns (Stug-series).

An interesting historical curiosity is the Super-heavy Panzer VIII Maus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_VIII_Maus)

Sorry for off-topic post :).

Nitromaster
Mar 28, 2007, 01:29 PM
I think Apple's losing their edge. They're the last to this game, behind Linux (#1) and Vista (#2). I'm sure some of what will come will be implemented in a slicker way, but 1) beryl devs will clone whatever Apple comes up with in about three days, meaning I can get the same stuff for free, and 2) it won't be nearly as extensible as what's available for Linux
Well there is always the chance of leopard including compiz/beryl and apple creating an easy way to install/package more plugins.

yagran
Mar 28, 2007, 01:31 PM
i think i found out another little hint of what leopard will look like! :)

tell me if im wrong:

go to: http://www.adobe.com/products/fireworks/features/
and watch - "common library" notice that the drop down box is an aqua normal one

then watch - "Symbol properties panel" notice its a more..itunes 7.1 style drop down box?! wierd huh?

i assume that adobe and apple are quite close and adobe must be given advanced copies so they can make sure cs3 will work with leopard.

(altough the box hes dragging components from is a m$ window??? - now im really confused by it all)

thoughts? opinions?

apb3
Mar 28, 2007, 01:36 PM
There were (among others):

Panther
Tiger
Königstiger (King Tiger)
Jagdpanther (hunting panther)
Jagdtiger (hunting tiger)
Marder (Weasel)
Nashorn (Rhino)

German main battle tanks were and are named after big cats, like Apple does with their OS'es ;). Marder and Nashorn were tank-destroyers, as were Jagdpanther and Jagdtiger (those two were named after Panther and Tiger, because they were based on those two tanks). The name Leopard came after WW2. However, the two most widely used tanks in Wehrmach were Panzer III and Panzer IV. And besides those, there were also assault-guns (Stug-series).

An interesting historical curiosity is the Super-heavy Panzer VIII Maus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_VIII_Maus)

Sorry for off-topic post :).

Yes! Or should I say, "Kewl!" OS X 10.6 Weasel!!!!

Thanks for the material to waste another late night!

Clive At Five
Mar 28, 2007, 01:39 PM
I think Apple's losing their edge. They're the last to this game, behind Linux (#1) and Vista (#2). I'm sure some of what will come will be implemented in a slicker way, but 1) beryl devs will clone whatever Apple comes up with in about three days, meaning I can get the same stuff for free, and 2) it won't be nearly as extensible as what's available for Linux

Linux is not user-friendly. An average user cannot buy a linux computer, pull it out of the box, plug it in and have it "just work." Understanding Linux takes hours of experience and a higher understanding of programming languages. Those are things that many people don't have time, or don't have the knowledge capacity to figure out. That is the major failing of Linux. Unless someone comes out with a fully-packaged feature-rich build of a Linux OS, it will only appeal to so many people.

-Clive

Nitromaster
Mar 28, 2007, 01:39 PM
you must all be obsessed with leopard(no offence) if you keep looking for differences in themes,

we all will know whatit looks like(compiz?) in a month and will prob be able to use it by july,

yay,my 100th post,

Done-on-a-Mac
Mar 28, 2007, 01:40 PM
...Recently discovered holding down CTL+ Scrolling with the mighty mouse...

You need to warn a fellow as to what that does! lol, My mighty mouse scroll ball only works in the up direction(zooming in)!:eek: So I couldn't get back! Luckly I have a spare one that does work.

- Scott

psychofreak
Mar 28, 2007, 01:43 PM
you must all be obsessed with leopard

You don't say...

miketcool
Mar 28, 2007, 01:45 PM
Mac OS 11 Ocelot.

Enough with the cat names, I imagine at some point Apple will find a new group.

I think they should go old school like Mac OS 6.08 "Terminator". Now I know the name was granted because it ended 6's lineage, but a whole line of Swarzenegger movies would be sweet!

Mac OS Junior
Mac OS K-Cop
Mac OS Commando
Mac OS Total Recall
Mag-O-Eis-Gingle-All-Zweh-Way! (Robert Smigel pronuciation)

Nitromaster
Mar 28, 2007, 01:46 PM
what about suse linux?

The problem i have with linux is standards,
ie kde default menu is a mess,different menu layouts,different init modes to install graphics, etc
compiz rules

CaptainScarlet
Mar 28, 2007, 02:06 PM
You need to warn a fellow as to what that does! lol, My mighty mouse scroll ball only works in the up direction(zooming in)!:eek: So I couldn't get back! Luckly I have a spare one that does work.

- Scott
Do you know you can fix that right? Just turn the mouse over on a mouse pad, and push down HARD on the mouse and rub it up and down on the scroll wheel. It should fix the junk underneath the south pin...Works for me every time...

lazyrighteye
Mar 28, 2007, 02:14 PM
Sweet! I never knew you could do that! I'm a long time (16+ years) heavy mac user and I still enjoy discovering new things like that! Recently discovered holding down CTL+ Scrolling with the mighty mouse...

I knew the display inverse trick, but that Zoom scroll ball thing: is that new to 10.4.9?

Regardless, would this not be handy with resolution independence or am I just talking out of my @ss?

trevorlsciact
Mar 28, 2007, 02:15 PM
The ALT + TAB feature in Vista is nice, it shows a 3d image of each app, instead of just the icon.

Things like this, that add some real value and not just eye candy, will be great to add to the OS.

I'm hoping 10.5 has features like this.

used it, not nearly as useful as exposé In fact, besides looking cool, it sucks.

clevin
Mar 28, 2007, 02:16 PM
3D UI? fake,

how do u define "3D UI", animated operations? Vista has it, Tiger has it, Leopard probably has more of it, so what?

IHMO, 3D UI is more like the XGL in linux, neither Vista nor OSX really provide that capability and "3D-ish effects" yet. and I don't expect leopard can do better than that.

jakemikey
Mar 28, 2007, 02:17 PM
Linux is not user-friendly.


That's a deceptive way of putting it. Which "users" are you talking about? Linux is not user-friendly for computer neophytes. It is the single MOST user-friendly OS for advanced computer users. By the same token, OS X is user friendly for basic users (although ironically, 99.9% of mac users I know don't really know how to *close* an application under OS X - they think just killing the window does the job), but can be confining (user unfriendly) for more advanced users. I now prefer Linux for a lot of stuff because it is *infinitely* more hackable/flexible than OS X.

psychofreak
Mar 28, 2007, 02:24 PM
that Zoom scroll ball thing: is that new to 10.4.9?
No...

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 02:32 PM
You need to warn a fellow as to what that does! lol, My mighty mouse scroll ball only works in the up direction(zooming in)!:eek: So I couldn't get back! Luckly I have a spare one that does work.

- Scott
There are keyboard shortcuts in case it ever happens again... Cmd-alt-= and Cmd-alt-- ... but if your - key isn't working either, I suppose that would still be a problem. How about System Preferences -> Universal Access -> Zoom?

i think i found out another little hint of what leopard will look like! :)

tell me if im wrong:

go to: http://www.adobe.com/products/fireworks/features/
and watch - "common library" notice that the drop down box is an aqua normal one

then watch - "Symbol properties panel" notice its a more..itunes 7.1 style drop down box?! wierd huh?

i assume that adobe and apple are quite close and adobe must be given advanced copies so they can make sure cs3 will work with leopard.

(altough the box hes dragging components from is a m$ window??? - now im really confused by it all)

thoughts? opinions?

Uh... that's just a design program, from what I can tell. It is running on XP, actually.

psionic001
Mar 28, 2007, 02:37 PM
I'd say it would be called OS XI Version 11.1 etc.
OR, more likeley, give it a whole new name.

If they can produce a huge tech jump in Leopard, then maybe it's a good sign that they are sticking to OSX branding and not intending on just little incremental upgrades like we have seen to date.

do you think a feature like this would be better suited for mac osx 11.0? Or would this be a response/reaction to vista?

speaking of which....
when do we expect osx 11.0 ? :D :D


My 2c.....
I think one of the secret apps will be a super duper core animated iPhoto/iLife suite.

Psi

50548
Mar 28, 2007, 02:37 PM
There were (among others):

Panther
Tiger
Königstiger (King Tiger)
Jagdpanther (hunting panther)
Jagdtiger (hunting tiger)
Marder (Weasel)
Nashorn (Rhino)

German main battle tanks were and are named after big cats, like Apple does with their OS'es ;). Marder and Nashorn were tank-destroyers, as were Jagdpanther and Jagdtiger (those two were named after Panther and Tiger, because they were based on those two tanks). The name Leopard came after WW2. However, the two most widely used tanks in Wehrmach were Panzer III and Panzer IV. And besides those, there were also assault-guns (Stug-series).

An interesting historical curiosity is the Super-heavy Panzer VIII Maus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_VIII_Maus)

Sorry for off-topic post :).

By the way, the Tiger tanks were simply awesome, and probably the best in WWII, despite their complex machinery...its enemies had to put flak battery after flak battery just to knock them out...

The eastern tank campaign was only won by the Russians at the end because of 3 main factors:

- sheer number of tanks as per the lend-lease programs;
- new Josef Stalin tank with improved armor;
- disruption of german logistics.

End of off-topic part 2...:rolleyes:

50548
Mar 28, 2007, 02:40 PM
That's a deceptive way of putting it. Which "users" are you talking about? Linux is not user-friendly for computer neophytes. It is the single MOST user-friendly OS for advanced computer users. By the same token, OS X is user friendly for basic users (although ironically, 99.9% of mac users I know don't really know how to *close* an application under OS X - they think just killing the window does the job), but can be confining (user unfriendly) for more advanced users. I now prefer Linux for a lot of stuff because it is *infinitely* more hackable/flexible than OS X.

You said it right...for "advanced users"...this rules 99% of the world out.

Linux sucks big time because of its cryptic "back-office" configuration and endless confusion of distros...no thanks.

psionic001
Mar 28, 2007, 02:41 PM
99.9% of your Mac user friends are switchers..... no?:p

although ironically, 99.9% of mac users I know don't really know how to *close* an application under OS X - they think just killing the window does the job

okenter
Mar 28, 2007, 02:55 PM
I was wondering when Apple would get around to it. I think it was in the late 1990's when Sun first demo'd Project Looking Glass. It is a 3D operating system. I don't know what ever became ov it but here's a link to the demo. http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.xml
I expected Apple to pickup on this idea a long time ago.

Chef Medeski
Mar 28, 2007, 03:26 PM
A blogger made this connection in January: http://ormset.no/wordpress/?p=152
Well there is two differences. The Tiger was the last WWII tank. Leopard is a much more modern tank. And of course so far there is nothing after this. Could this be a foreshadowing of the end? After this is OS 11, with the crazy 3D interface. No more german tanks. No more OS X. Or it could just be that Leopard that now is going to be 3d due to it being a Moern day tank, ages away from the Tiger.

Dont you love crazy conspiracy theories? Only for Apple computers. ;)

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 28, 2007, 03:28 PM
That's a deceptive way of putting it. Which "users" are you talking about? Linux is not user-friendly for computer neophytes. It is the single MOST user-friendly OS for advanced computer users. By the same token, OS X is user friendly for basic users (although ironically, 99.9% of mac users I know don't really know how to *close* an application under OS X - they think just killing the window does the job), but can be confining (user unfriendly) for more advanced users. I now prefer Linux for a lot of stuff because it is *infinitely* more hackable/flexible than OS X.

99% can seem pretty deceptive to. If you know 10 people and 9 of them are ignorant as to the proper quit procedure, this is nothing really significant enough to consider. All of the mac users I've ever encountered, let alone know personally, know how to properly close an application. Anyone who has owned a mac for more than a day learns how to do this. Some if not most actually learn by observing the dock, which is in hide-off mode by default. How is application>quit or a two key combo really confining for an "advanced" user?

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 28, 2007, 03:41 PM
I think Apple's losing their edge. They're the last to this game, behind Linux (#1) and Vista (#2). I'm sure some of what will come will be implemented in a slicker way, but 1) beryl devs will clone whatever Apple comes up with in about three days, meaning I can get the same stuff for free, and 2) it won't be nearly as extensible as what's available for Linux

Too dubious to be real. Linux has great appeal to some, but the crowd it currently pleases most will most likely always be in the minority, as the average user flat out refuses to learn the coding and other cybergobbledegook involved with learning Linux. Vista is basically XP Circus edition, which uses a window shuffling system that is both counterintuitive and time consuming. It actually makes me dread opening multiple documents in the same application. Ironically enough, the application tab in the tool bar works much better, despite the deficit of eye candy. How you ranked it #2 is highly suspect. All of that superfluous image distortion and meaningless flash n' animation is hypnotizing to say the least. In the end it's nothing more than an experiment with how far one can go to make interactive pieces of stained glass fly around on a desktop despite the serious sacrifice of elegance.

jakemikey
Mar 28, 2007, 03:45 PM
How is application>quit or a two key combo really confining for an "advanced" user?

It's not. That wasn't the point of my post, just an aside. And I can think of four examples:

1) My wife, a newspaper reporter, never "quits" her apps. She just kills the windows. I've explained it to her several times, but it's not intuitive for her.

2) Newspaper staff where she works. All Mac users. Same thing.

3) My boss in the lab. Long-time Mac user. Same thing.

4) Go to the computer lab on campus. Look at the iMacs after everyone has left. No windows open, but apple-tab and you'll see 6-10 apps open.

Just my observations. If the Mac was the god of the user-friendliness world, I don't think I'd have had these observations.

Nitromaster
Mar 28, 2007, 03:46 PM
99% of beginners on macs do not know how to install/uninstall an app.
Im still hoping for compiz/beryl in leopard(xgl etc)
its not like they dont have access to the source code,

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 28, 2007, 03:54 PM
This sounds like a matter of conditioning than anything else. I've been using the systems since OS 9 but at the same time used Windows systems since 95, so I haven't had trouble learning this. Because one cannot grasp the concept of a different method of closing an application, it doesn't necessarily make the implementation counterintuitive.

There are a few exceptions though. Some small apps do close by killing windows. So far the only apps I've encountered that do this are MactheRipper, Handbrake, Dictionary, PhotoBooth and I think there are a few more, but it's not many.

jakemikey
Mar 28, 2007, 04:10 PM
...as the average user flat out refuses to learn the coding and other cybergobbledegook involved with learning Linux.


I'd have agreed with you even a year ago, but that's really not the case anymore. Average users can be quite at home, if they can get around the "conditioning" you talk about.


How you ranked it #2 is highly suspect.

How is it suspect? Vista was the second of the three major OSs to have "3D" interface elements available. Linux was the first, and OS X will be the last. Makes sense to me.

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 28, 2007, 04:23 PM
I misunderstood your ranking. :o

I mistook the number system as a worse-better scale. My bad.

shawnce
Mar 28, 2007, 04:28 PM
If the Mac was the god of the user-friendliness world, I don't think I'd have had these observations. Kill a window? You mean close?

Also what does it matter that applications are running? In fact not having to thinking about if an application is running or not is an improvement.

Matthew Yohe
Mar 28, 2007, 04:32 PM
Maybe they will make iLife be one app that can be rotated around etc to reveal the other parts of the application (iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD etc)... Instead of closing and opening a program.. just drag the project along over to the next side of the iApp cube :)

inkswamp
Mar 28, 2007, 04:49 PM
I think Apple's losing their edge. They're the last to this game, behind Linux (#1) and Vista (#2).

Whaa?? Linux isn't #1 just because there are some 3D UI features out there (mostly of the useless-only-trying-to-impress-other-geeks kind of stuff.) Let's be look at the bigger picture here. You can't even run Office or Photoshop natively on Linux. When Linux starts getting major productivity apps long before Macs, then we can start declaring it #1 and deciding whether or not Apple has lost their edge.

ToddW
Mar 28, 2007, 04:53 PM
i think apple is going to implement their equivalent of compiz or beryl. that stuff on linux is pretty cool, but is a pain in the butt to implement. those are some cool features that i bet they are going to implement in leopard. 3D desktops are going to be just the beginning.

fawlty
Mar 28, 2007, 04:59 PM
It's not. That wasn't the point of my post, just an aside. And I can think of four examples:

1) My wife, a newspaper reporter, never "quits" her apps. She just kills the windows. I've explained it to her several times, but it's not intuitive for her.

2) Newspaper staff where she works. All Mac users. Same thing.

3) My boss in the lab. Long-time Mac user. Same thing.

4) Go to the computer lab on campus. Look at the iMacs after everyone has left. No windows open, but apple-tab and you'll see 6-10 apps open.

Just my observations. If the Mac was the god of the user-friendliness world, I don't think I'd have had these observations.

Mate, your wife is right. There's no reason to Quit applications in OS X.

inkswamp
Mar 28, 2007, 05:08 PM
i think apple is going to implement their equivalent of compiz or beryl. that stuff on linux is pretty cool, but is a pain in the butt to implement. those are some cool features that i bet they are going to implement in leopard. 3D desktops are going to be just the beginning.

Everything that is useful about compiz and beryl (from what I've seen--updating windows in dock, growing icons, expose-like features, animated windows and app launching, overlaid app switcher) is already in Tiger and much of it was in Jaguar and Panther too. Even some of the useless compiz and beryl stuff (rotating screen cubes, running a screensaver in the background, transparency, morphing UI elements, elements fading-in and out etc.) are old-hat on OS X.

But really... are you suggesting that Apple's big secret feature that they've kept us all on the edge of our seats over is windows that wiggle when you drag 'em? :rolleyes:

jakemikey
Mar 28, 2007, 05:11 PM
Whaa?? Linux isn't #1 just because ...

Don't get your panties in a bunch. As I explained previously, my ranking was based on who had it first. I wasn't making any commentary about who has the best implementation. Look at the language of my post. It's right there.

inkswamp
Mar 28, 2007, 05:17 PM
Don't get your panties in a bunch. As I explained previously, my ranking was based on who had it first. I wasn't making any commentary about who has the best implementation. Look at the language of my post. It's right there.

I understood exactly what you meant, and I was pulling back and showing you the big picture. I think a lot of the Linux 3D interface stuff I've seen is neat but ultimately useless, thus I don't agree with the conclusion that Apple is losing its edge just because they aren't first to the finish line with this stuff. Sometimes having an edge is knowing what to leave out, not what to implement. A lot of what I like about Apple is its ability to unclutter the interface--they know what to leave out and I would consider that to be their edge over MS in many cases when it comes to UI.

Infrared
Mar 28, 2007, 05:25 PM
Nicely spotted 'Coreweb', this could be what Leopard drop down menus look like. I hope it is cause I don't like Aqua myself:



Current OS X drop down;..........................................iPhone drop down (possibly in Leopard);

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/158/437740260_6dbc3cc834_o.png....................http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/437749408_76099f5989_o.png



Much simpler and sleeker looking IMO.

Now that looks very nice. The blue one is far too distracting. Such things
are meant to aid looking at the content, not compete for attention with it.

Grey can work, but it's a bit difficult to pull it off. The ideal - for me at
least - is sober, refined, but not dull and lifeless. (If these are the criteria
iTunes 7 is a failure - a horrid clashing mish-mash of dull control buttons
and magenta scrollbars etc. Please, Apple, nothing like that for Leopard.)

The grey drop down menu in your image looks great, and is easy to find
without sticking out too much. It is raised just the right amount.

I have noticed (probably mentioned before), that the Apple store changed
its tab colours a little while ago from blue to grey. Here's what they used
to look like:

http://www.macshrine.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/apple_page_macbook.jpg

If we're going to be really speculative, we might say that Apple are
throwing these things on their website to subtly shift the mindset of
mac-heads to the new scheme without just coming out and saying
"this is exactly what Leopard will look like". A leap too far? :)

Cheers,

Inf.

jakemikey
Mar 28, 2007, 05:29 PM
Sometimes having an edge is knowing what to leave out, not what to implement.

Crikey, that's the kind of spin that'd make you a perfect candidate for Apple's PR department. So, you mean like "leaving out" a second mouse button and scroll wheel for ages made Apple edgier? Or "leaving out" 1080p on the AppleTV?

ToddW
Mar 28, 2007, 05:44 PM
Everything that is useful about compiz and beryl (from what I've seen--updating windows in dock, growing icons, expose-like features, animated windows and app launching, overlaid app switcher) is already in Tiger and much of it was in Jaguar and Panther too. Even some of the useless compiz and beryl stuff (rotating screen cubes, running a screensaver in the background, transparency, morphing UI elements, elements fading-in and out etc.) are old-hat on OS X.

But really... are you suggesting that Apple's big secret feature that they've kept us all on the edge of our seats over is windows that wiggle when you drag 'em? :rolleyes:

what i'm saying are features like that kind of like an expose^3 or something like that, but better. if they are working on UI elements that are based on core image stuff that is the only thing that i can think of. no reason for you to be a d!ck about my humble little opinion. if you don't like it then p!ss off!

inkswamp
Mar 28, 2007, 05:57 PM
Crikey, that's the kind of spin that'd make you a perfect candidate for Apple's PR department. So, you mean like "leaving out" a second mouse button and scroll wheel for ages made Apple edgier? Or "leaving out" 1080p on the AppleTV?

You're citing things that Apple missed the boat on that clearly and demonstrably have/had use for the average user, whereas 3D effects are mostly useless eye candy. What I see in beryl and compiz are wiggling and spinning windows and a fondness for transparency that ought to be illegal. I still don't get how that means Apple is losing their edge.

And you can say whatever you want about me personally, but it doesn't change the fact that not overdoing it is a good thing. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Apple has shown just about the right amount of self-indulgence and restraint with the whizzy UI effects. I hope they continue to do so. That's good design and that's where they continue to hold a significant lead on Windows and Linux.

cgc
Mar 28, 2007, 06:28 PM
A 3-D interface seems like such a waste of resources. There's gotta be a better way to organize and find information. 3-D seems hot cuz it's new and cool but I'd bet it won't be implemented and, if it were, it'd be useless.

Geek 2.0
Mar 28, 2007, 06:52 PM
yeh. but vista = tiger, when was tiger out again? o yeh BEFORE VISTA.
leopard is the next gen! microsoft are just laggining behind.

vista < tiger
tiger < leopard
leopard = something worth money
therefore

vista ≠ something worth money
vista is worth monkeypoop

Highland
Mar 28, 2007, 06:55 PM
I beg to differ. While VLC was probably a bad example, what about Adobe? They've been working closely with Apple getting CS3 ready for Leopard. I would bet my bottom dollar they have a more advanced build than what the developers have. They would also know the UI scheme. With a suite of applications as CS3 is to pros (and pro hardware sales for Apple), Adobe has more of a clue of what's going on than the rest of us, that's for damn sure.
Think about this: Almost all Apple employees didn't know about the Intel changeover (including Apple devs at WWDC). Everything at Apple is on a need to know basis.

I don't see UI changes in any of the upcoming Adobe apps as a hint at Leopard UI changes, nor do I think Adobe would care about making their apps look like Leopard... they're all cross platform, and past versions have demonstrated that they treat their UI as cross platform.

Also, I don't think for a second that the CS3 team are privy to any 10.5 UI changes. If they were, we'd have seen leaked info on the net.

you and everybody else here has no idea what (if any!) UI changes are coming in Leopard!
Yes. Myself included.

surferfromuk
Mar 28, 2007, 07:11 PM
Think about this: Almost all Apple employees didn't know about the Intel changeover (including Apple devs at WWDC). Everything at Apple is on a need to know basis.



mmmh..Steve is very adept at squirreling away secret 'elite' coding teams for special projects.

That's the bottom line though really isn't it - if it were any other CEO we'd thing ' ahh balls - 10.5 is really just about all your seeing on Apple's website there maybe a few trinkets but don't get worked up over this' but with Steve Jobs at the helm you really just never know what this guy is going to pull from the hat. I guess this is what makes him the most dangerous CEO out there...

Highland
Mar 28, 2007, 07:19 PM
As dangerous as a Liger...

mac17
Mar 28, 2007, 08:18 PM
if there is a 3d interface do you think the current macbooks could handle it? if not ill be verry pissed:mad: i think id have to buy a new one that could!:rolleyes:

inkswamp
Mar 28, 2007, 08:34 PM
if there is a 3d interface do you think the current macbooks could handle it? if not ill be verry pissed:mad: i think id have to buy a new one that could!:rolleyes:

I imagine if there's any truth to this rumor (and I sort of doubt it) it will degrade gracefully for older machines--like the way Dashboard will omit the ripple effect on old machines.

CoreWeb
Mar 28, 2007, 08:36 PM
99% of beginners on macs do not know how to install/uninstall an app.
Im still hoping for compiz/beryl in leopard(xgl etc)
its not like they dont have access to the source code,

Actually, Apple would most likely not need the source code. Core Animation would make a lot of it pretty simple, depending on how organized their windowing code structure is.

Crikey, that's the kind of spin that'd make you a perfect candidate for Apple's PR department. So, you mean like "leaving out" a second mouse button and scroll wheel for ages made Apple edgier? Or "leaving out" 1080p on the AppleTV?

I think he meant leaving out something like 3-D window switching like in Aero, as it is too cumbersome, and instead using Exposé.

what i'm saying are features like that kind of like an expose^3 or something like that, but better. if they are working on UI elements that are based on core image stuff that is the only thing that i can think of. no reason for you to be a d!ck about my humble little opinion. if you don't like it then p!ss off!

Hasn't Expose turned in to an entire application in Leopard? Could this hint to possible upgrades?

povman
Mar 28, 2007, 09:19 PM
You crazy people, noone in their right mind would implement a GUI that looked like a first-person shooter. And, unless they invent a touchpad replacement for the mouse, I don't think they'll implement a multi-touch interface.

My vision for the new Finder is something akin to Quicksilver, but with a more mouse-friendly interface (for everyone else!). That would be so much better than the current finder, or any other file manager.

antonwalker
Mar 28, 2007, 10:08 PM
I wish apple never said anything about its ucomming products unless they give an official release date. Gosh I think Apple will have to update the looks cuz most people went to vista for looks. So maybe we will get more crossovers. Cause the UI is b-e-a-utiful.

spotlight07
Mar 28, 2007, 11:26 PM
Since we're dreaming up interfaces, here's what I'm hoping for...I hope I'm not too far off. Smart folders and Spotlight connected to coverflow that has large preview images/videos in realtime. Imagine a black screen that looks like frontrow with a spotlight textbox and smart folders on the side and being able to browse your documents at near fullscreen with coverflow. The coverflow dynamically changes with every click/keystroke. I also think the core animation grid view is really cool too and could be used for the finder: files could automatically reorder themselves with slick animation based on changes to filename, meta data or sortation. I wish MS hadn't "borrowed" the black interface from frontrow because I'm afraid that some windows users will think that it was a copy from vista instead of the truth. I do think that if Apple used blue glow on a black background similar to the the Apple TV on the front page of apple.com, that would be slick for an "Illuminous" interface. I think front row could be carefully integrated into the whole Mac OS with Leopard and it would be functional. I'm not basing any of this on fact, just my opinion based on what I've seen and read.

SheriffParker
Mar 28, 2007, 11:34 PM
Yes i think this is the end of the jelly beans and all this childishjelly stuff. Ive had enough of these stupid blue scroll bars. bring on the grey


You can already have grey in Tiger.

System Preferences - Appearance - change blue to graphite. My mac has been jelly belly blue free for months now!

MacAficionado
Mar 28, 2007, 11:41 PM
Piles Patent (http://www.macnn.com/blogs/?p=260)

YouTube Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_lxBwvf3Vk)

Evangelion
Mar 29, 2007, 12:08 AM
The eastern tank campaign was only won by the Russians at the end because of 3 main factors:

- sheer number of tanks as per the lend-lease programs;

The number of tanks provided by L-L wasn't that big (around 7.000. Russians built over 57.000 T-34's alone), and the tanks they got through L-L weren't that good. The tank that saved the Russians was the T-34, and they built A LOT of those. The other things that contributed to their defeat was Stalingrad (losing 30% of your entire army in one battle is not a good thing. After Stalingrad it was practically impossible for Germany to win) and the fact that Germans were not prepared for a long war.

- new Josef Stalin tank with improved armor;

IS-1 never saw action, it was IS-2 (and later models) that served in the Red Army. And IS-2 saw combat for the first time in spring 1944. And by that time Germanys fate was already sealed.

As to Tiger.... It's a fine tank for sure. But we need to look at the big picture. If we look at individual tanks and it's specs, then it's either Königstiger or Jagdtiger that is the best tank of the world, specswise. But we can't do that. If we look at the big picture, the best German tank of the war was either Panzer IV or Panther.

surferfromuk
Mar 29, 2007, 05:05 AM
Seems to me Apple should include a DVD tutorial with each new mac or OS purchase. Just a 60 min chapter based introduction to Mac OSX. From setup to complex stuff like getting wi-fi routers working. Cost a few thousand to produce and pennies to include in every box. The whole family can sit and watch this in the living room in their own good time.

Highland
Mar 29, 2007, 06:13 AM
Nicely spotted 'Coreweb', this could be what Leopard drop down menus look like. I hope it is cause I don't like Aqua myself:



Current OS X drop down;..........................................iPhone drop down (possibly in Leopard);

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/158/437740260_6dbc3cc834_o.png....................http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/437749408_76099f5989_o.png



Much simpler and sleeker looking IMO.
Yeah... might be one way they could go. I wouldn't read anything into the single arrow though. One arrow = drop down menu. Two arrows = pop up menu. Here's some of what's already available in Tiger.

http://homepage.mac.com/marcedwards/forumbits/osx_listmenus.gif

NicP
Mar 29, 2007, 07:43 AM
I have been trying to teach my girlfriend that she doesn't have to quit every application once she finishes using it. Keeping an application open allows it to launch a window much faster when you want to use it again and the only thing its consuming while idle is RAM which will be swapped to disk if another application needs it. Of course having too many applications open at a time could be a problem, but for half a dozen or a dozen there is really no problem. So to reiterate my point: this is by design!

It's not. That wasn't the point of my post, just an aside. And I can think of four examples:

1) My wife, a newspaper reporter, never "quits" her apps. She just kills the windows. I've explained it to her several times, but it's not intuitive for her.

2) Newspaper staff where she works. All Mac users. Same thing.

3) My boss in the lab. Long-time Mac user. Same thing.

4) Go to the computer lab on campus. Look at the iMacs after everyone has left. No windows open, but apple-tab and you'll see 6-10 apps open.

Just my observations. If the Mac was the god of the user-friendliness world, I don't think I'd have had these observations.

NicP
Mar 29, 2007, 07:51 AM
Applications that are only allowed to have 1 window will close when you close that window. Add to your list iphoto and toast. (I think the only exception too this rule is ical. I have never been able to have multiple windows in ical, but it stays open, I assume to keep the dock icon showing the correct date)

This sounds like a matter of conditioning than anything else. I've been using the systems since OS 9 but at the same time used Windows systems since 95, so I haven't had trouble learning this. Because one cannot grasp the concept of a different method of closing an application, it doesn't necessarily make the implementation counterintuitive.

There are a few exceptions though. Some small apps do close by killing windows. So far the only apps I've encountered that do this are MactheRipper, Handbrake, Dictionary, PhotoBooth and I think there are a few more, but it's not many.

surferfromuk
Mar 29, 2007, 09:39 AM
I would hope that in 2 years of development they have achieved a little more than just changing the style of the drop down menu...Surely that would take someone an afternoon ?

mcorange
Mar 29, 2007, 10:19 AM
They'll wait till 2020 and call it Mac OS XX! :D

And then in 2045 they'll replace Mac OS XX with OS XXX in which which the only upgrade will be an automatic porngetter so that you'll actually have to upgrade your disk at some point...:D

Nitromaster
Mar 29, 2007, 10:35 AM
leopard needs to include ilife,
look at vista,its got multimedia player, and graphics program already install, true the programs windows includes arent exactly the best(mspaint anyone?)but for me at least a clean install of osx looks very empty,

also leopard will include some awesome new features(we will know soon engough)

look at vista: microsoft are saying there are over 150 new features, ask most users to name the new features and most will only name 2:
1.Flip 3d effect (which sucks)
2.The new aero theme

so far leopard has spaces,boot camp and time machine
all the secret features are yet to be announced, which will beat the crap out of what windows 2011 has to offer.

50548
Mar 29, 2007, 01:10 PM
this reminds me of the "old" rumors about piles in osx:

http://www.macrumors.com/2003/04/13/panther-feature-piles/

http://www.asktog.com/columns/035SquanAdv.html

Although I must admit not having much idea about it. But I guess 3D would be helpfull for using piles.

Actually a 3D thing was already tested by Apple once...it was called Project X...gladly it didn't come to fruition.

Maccus Aurelius
Mar 29, 2007, 01:50 PM
Wasn't Project-X also a movie with Matthew Broderick where superintelligent chimpanzees escaped on an airplane?

jmbear
Mar 29, 2007, 03:13 PM
But 11.0 can't be that far away: we're running out of cat names.

Mac OS XI Garfield?

Telp
Mar 29, 2007, 03:17 PM
This could be pretty cool but on a large scale it could get to be quite annoying i would presume. Like its cool on an iphone, but i dont know, well see when it comes out i guess.

MacFly123
Mar 29, 2007, 04:18 PM
Ooooooh, I get it. I thought you meant on the NYTimes website (in safari) on the iPhone page. Now I understand. And yes, I agree, that pull down menu does look very different, much like Quick Look/Time Machines' UI's...

I noticed that blue toned type interface since the new iTunes that has them as the scroll bars instead of the Aqua scroll bars. I use to wonder how Apple could drop the ball and make that not match the rest of OS X's UI, but if it is to be in Leopard then it would make sense. I think it is ugly though, I like the Aqua buttons MUCH MORE. Doesn't anybody else think the blue toned UI is just flat, dull, and ugly?

surferfromuk
Mar 29, 2007, 04:47 PM
Wasn't Project-X also a movie with Matthew Broderick where superintelligent chimpanzees escaped on an airplane?

Yeah, that would make for an interesting OSX theme - I'm glad you made the connection...It would explain the system wide integration of core animation as the only serious technique available to enable photo realistic monkeys to run loose across the desktop, being chased by mathew broderick in a lab coat and glasses. I can see this helping in all kinds of new and inventive ways : monkeys turning up randomly to fold down menus, jumping up and down in excitment when downloads are finished, running up and grabbing folders and jumping into the Trash Can with them, Mathew using one of those big rope nets instead of lasso'ing multiple files - they could strangely turn into monkeys as they are 'netted', - you know the kind of thing. Maybe they could integrate a 'Planet of the Apes' expansion pack and we could have Charlton Heston ride in and thump the ground whilst berating us all to be 'b*stards'.

I wonder how Steve got it past the board ? :)

CoreWeb
Mar 29, 2007, 05:16 PM
I wonder how Steve got it past the board ? :)

He probably just bragged about having invented the iPhone, and wowed them enough so they'd say yes to anything.

decksnap
Mar 29, 2007, 05:42 PM
I noticed that blue toned type interface since the new iTunes that has them as the scroll bars instead of the Aqua scroll bars. I use to wonder how Apple could drop the ball and make that not match the rest of OS X's UI, but if it is to be in Leopard then it would make sense. I think it is ugly though, I like the Aqua buttons MUCH MORE. Doesn't anybody else think the blue toned UI is ugly?

Yes. There was a large negative reaction to the iTunes interface, and a list of hacks popped up rather quickly to turn it back. It's one thing for an app like Uno to replace the aging brushed metal look, but you know there's an outcry when Uno replaces the brand new iTunes theme with the old one.

I personally hate the new iTunes look. It's very muddy.

MacFly123
Mar 29, 2007, 06:37 PM
But it won't be like that 3-d OS in Jurassic Park or the Looking Glass concept. It will be the same basic metaphors, overlaid with more 3d cues.

Sorry, but what UI in Jurassic Park are you guys talking about? Which movie and what part?

Thanks ;)

MacFly123
Mar 30, 2007, 02:05 AM
Yes. There was a large negative reaction to the iTunes interface, and a list of hacks popped up rather quickly to turn it back. It's one thing for an app like Uno to replace the aging brushed metal look, but you know there's an outcry when Uno replaces the brand new iTunes theme with the old one.

I personally hate the new iTunes look. It's very muddy.

That new iTunes look seriously looks like some flat, dull, ugly PC interface, that's all I can explain it as, FLAT, UGLY, DULL, NON-COLORFUL, FUGLY. THe Aqua interface and buttons are one the the most prominant beautiful features of OS X that people always recognize. Any movie, tv show, etc. that wants something on a computer to look beautiful shows it in the OS X interface NOT Windows, and now our itnerface is gunna flat dull and ugly just like theirs? PLEASE NO STEVE... I mean they do the blue thing even alot on apple.com now, but even there it looks more glossy and better, iTunes is just flat and ugly, lol ok i think i made my point ;)

MacPomme
Mar 30, 2007, 02:54 AM
Rumours and suspicions abound with regard to the secret functionality that Apple has held back from public announcement in relation to it’s forthcoming release of OSX 10.5 Leopard.

Steve Job’s mocked at WWDC ’06 that the reason some details were held back from public announcement was to prevent the competition, aka Microsoft, from being able to copy these secrets into what was, at the time, the impending finalisation of Windows Vista. I do love that line “Redmond, start your photocopiers.” though.

So why didn’t Steve announce the complete functionality of OS X 10.5 at WWDC - was it really to stop Microsoft copying some “new and you beaut” technology in the weeks between WWDC and Windows Vista RTM version? Of course not. We all know that was just some PR.

Could it have been because Apple was unsure whether the secret bits would not be finished in time to meet the release deadlines? Possibly, but I don’t think so - and I’ll explain why later. So we’ve just about ruled out competitive pressures and product feature completion as the reasons behind Apple not announcing the full functionality of OS X 10.5 Leopard.

And then along comes the iPhone announcement at Macworld. But! At WWDC there was not even a mention of Mac’s by Apple nor of OS X 10.5 Leopard. Apple, Steve, was conspicuously silent on both subjects except a brief mention that the transition to Intel had been completed ahead of schedule. That was it.

And where are we, as Apple product consumers, now (late March ‘07)? We still know nothing further of the secret features of OS X 10.5 Leopard, and a variety of forecasters are suggesting that all Mac models are overdue for upgrades.

Furthermore, iLife ’07 and iWork ’07 are due - and again not a word exists in the aether as to their release dates or possible functionality - save the spreadsheet and, less likely, database rumours. So why hasn’t Apple announced any of its secrets? Vista’s been released so what the heck!

There must be a legitimate and cogent business rationale for not disclosing what it is about OS X 10.5 Leopard that is so secret that announcing it early would create unrealistic expectations in the market that will not be met, or that announcing the full functionality would have harmed income and profit between the time of announcement and the time of release to market.

My vivid belief is that Apple has held back on all, but some innocuous, functionality announcements regarding OS X 10.5 Leopard for fear of creating such an expectation, anticipation and demand for an unreleased product that income and profit would suffer significantly between the period from the announcement to the release.

OS X 10.5 Leopard will introduce, in my opinion, a revolutionary user interface on a new line of Mac hardware models that will not require, but can use, a keyboard and a mouse. For support of this “guess” have a look at the way OS X has been implemented on the iPhone. Also have a look at Jeff Han’s presentation on revolutionary computer - human interfaces. The similarities are striking - and relevant.

I intentionally used the words “revolutionary UI” in the above paragraph. That is exactly what Steve Job’s said about OS X on the iPhone. Why would this sort of interface be made available by Apple ONLY on the iPhone. Why not capitalise on this multiple-touch sensitive screen on all Apple models with a screen.

Of course this type of human-computer interface cannot be tested on anything but a computer with a touch sensitive screen in the vein of the iPhone or the screen technology used by Jeff Han in his presentation. Hence all developer seeds of OS X 10.5 do not include this revolutionary UI. It can’t be used by them, why include it.

Steve even alluded to this in the iPhone Keynote - saying that Apple had tried a variety of technologies before settling on the one implemented in the iPhone. Why would Apple amortise the cost of such research only on the iPhone?

A simple look at the facets Apple has included in OS X 10.5 (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/" target="_blank") are pointers:


Core Animation
Resolution Independence
Garbage Collection
XCode 3.0 (not released because to do so would give away the UI API's)


iMacs, Macbooks and Macbook Pros (http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/" target="_blank") are all due for upgrades - if you are one who subscribes to a time based model for hardware upgrades.

If my guesses above are anywhere near the truth, then it follows that if Apple had announced this revolutionary UI at WWDC ’06, or anytime before product release, sales of Mac hardware would have fallen off significantly while consumers waited for OS X 10.5 Leopard to be finalised and released. An announcement of this kind would have dramatically affected the transition to Intel, and also the conversion of many Windows users to Mac / OS X users.

A couple of other rumours are germaine:


Apple building a tablet PC. Well this is close to the mark but not quite on the money.
OS X 10.5 Leopard is a 3D operating system (well Finder). Again this is close to but not quite the whole story.


Apple is a company in business. They do things for business and not emotive reasons. An announcement of such functionality in OS X 10.5 Leopard, or a major hardware model change (multiple-touch sensitive screens) would have impacted its bottom line significantly and weakened dramatically the impact of the Intel transition, and consequent switchers from Windows to OS X.

Is OS X Leopard a Windows Vista killer? No question of it, provided you, the consumer, have the hardware to support its revolutionary new interface.

So, thats it for me this autumn afternoon on the patio ... time for another cold beer!

(Posted in 2 other Macrumors forums)

PS: Are we really suggesting that Apple is holding off on Leopard because they are doing something like a Shapeshifter theme - which is under wraps, or a different colored drop down list, or menu backgrounds? Is that what bloggers, analysts etc are intimating? I hold the view we need to think much bigger. ;)

motulist
Mar 30, 2007, 03:20 AM
Rumours and suspicions abound with regard to the secret functionality...

Well, you certainly get points for length! ;)

Jarcrew
Mar 30, 2007, 04:42 AM
Wasn't Project-X also a movie with Matthew Broderick where superintelligent chimpanzees escaped on an airplane?Ooh, chimpanzee that! It's monkeynews here at MacRumors!

Thing is, the folks at Apple read the rumour sites - Steve Jobs has referenced them himself several times, he even did so at the MWSF07 keynote with the dial-based iPhone mockup; a joke that's been kicking around the web for years. They also know that people are going rumour crazy - and that's great for business. So we work ourselves into a little frenzy and then they drop the bomb when we're least expecting it, capitalizing on a frenzy that has cost them precisely nothing.

I think Leopard could go either way - either this is going to be an absolutely gigantic announcement (which would make sense if it was tied to iPhone technology, seeing as the iPhone was still rumorware at that point and the iPhone and Leopard appear to be dropping at around the same time) or it's going to be one or two new pieces of software, some iPhone integration, and the allusion to something massive in 10.6.

The iPhone may have a bigger part to play in all this than any of us think, though. I can just see the secret features being these massive iPhone integrations that not only make 10.5 a compelling upgrade, but also make us disgruntled MacWorld cynics into hardened iPhone followers.

surferfromuk
Mar 30, 2007, 04:51 AM
Rumours and suspicions abound...

When the revolution comes it will come quickly and without warning. ...Like all revolutions there will be, metaphorically speaking, bloodshed and empires will fall. And just like the rise of the original personal computer the old guard will not even recognise the future when it is offered to them across a table for free.

Is this about to happen ? pphhooowwweey, I hope so...

You obviously believe Apple, ahem sorry, Steve is still the revolutionary and that he has the BALLS to step out into the unknown with 10.5? Risking the entire pot on the turn of a card ?

WOW - now that would be exciting!...

It would make Daniel Craigs' James Bond look like a pussycat compared to Steve Jobs.

Again not being to preoccupied with board room politcs I can imagine that conversation

SJ: "I say we go all in and abandon keyboards and mice altogether...we either win now or I pack it all up and open a boutique on Venice beach selling Turtlenecks. So fella's - what's it going to be ? Are we going to kick some techno butt here today or not ?"

The most hilarious part is I can genuinely see him pointing a black leather gloved hand at some board room dissenter and saying 'I find your lack of faith disturbing'

MacPomme
Mar 30, 2007, 05:03 AM
abandon keyboards and mice altogether'

Nope. I am not suggesting thats the strategy now. That would mean dumping all legacy hardware platforms - including my loverly G5 iMac.

I am suggesting that the traditional and the revolutionary will be made available.

And as for the Steve 'reality distortion field' - I live in Australia. Like we care .... LOL

surferfromuk
Mar 30, 2007, 05:11 AM
Nope. I am not suggesting thats the strategy now. That would mean dumping all legacy hardware platforms - including my loverly G5 iMac.

I am suggesting that the traditional and the revolutionary will be made available.

And as for the Steve 'reality distortion field' - I live in Australia. Like we care .... LOL

Living in Australia's not going to save you - look at your post - it's the worst of us all for wild speculation :)

I think the solar winds are, if anything, amplifying Steve's RDF as it sweeps through the etheric undercurrents of the modern world on it's way to Oz.

I bet your sat in front of your mac right now in your Apple logo'd underpants, beer in one hand, mouse in the other, eyeballs rolled up in the back of your head, convulsing as you recieve the incoming pyschic thought stream of Steve's future plans. :p

LOL!...

MacPomme
Mar 30, 2007, 05:53 AM
Living in Australia's not going to save you
LOL!...

True true ....

Must be time for another beer then. Truth is I'm working - and its now 8:52PM on a Friday night!

jouster
Mar 30, 2007, 07:16 AM
yeh. but vista = tiger,

Uh huh. Sure it does.

Jarcrew
Mar 30, 2007, 08:01 AM
Vista's actually got some stuff I wouldn't mind seeing in Leopard - those video wallpapers? They're classy as hell.

Snowy_River
Mar 30, 2007, 10:37 AM
Vista's actually got some stuff I wouldn't mind seeing in Leopard - those video wallpapers? They're classy as hell.

Video wallpaper has been available for OS X through 3rd party apps for some time. The biggest problem with them is that they are massive resource hogs.

MacFly123
Mar 30, 2007, 08:42 PM
Rumours and suspicions abound

All I have to say is THANK YOU!!! I think you are very possibly right and you got me sooooo excited ;) I was just looking at the iPhone and it seems so stupid to think that Leopard's UI is not going to look and be like that. Do we really think Apple would not be consistant in their design? Come on haha!

The time has come for the rise of Apple in all the world :) IM SO EXCITED, wow this is going to be interesting to watch pan out. Time to buy lots of stock ;)

spooks99
Mar 30, 2007, 09:07 PM
And for those who say Apple is going to introduce an Illuminous theme... I personally find it pretty unlikely, though possible. However, if you want to see something somewhat like an illuminous theme, invert your screen by pressing CTL-ALT-CMD-8.

Ok, that was cool. Thanks for the tip!

CoreWeb
Mar 31, 2007, 11:04 AM
Vista's actually got some stuff I wouldn't mind seeing in Leopard - those video wallpapers? They're classy as hell.

You can make your screensaver act as a wallpaper. I made a shell script to do that for me. The command to execute the screen saver on the desktop is this:

/System/Library/Frameworks/ScreenSaver.framework/Resources/ScreenSaverEngine.app/Contents/MacOS/ScreenSaverEngine -background


Basically, it is the screensaver application, but with the command -background added to make it run as your desktop background.

Just copy and paste it into Terminal, and press enter. Close terminal to stop it.

surferfromuk
Mar 31, 2007, 12:01 PM
Nice one coreweb...That is very cool!..:)

clevin
Mar 31, 2007, 03:23 PM
check this "REAL 3D" desktop out.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NoF8_Ivdq1c

johnee
Mar 31, 2007, 03:29 PM
You can make your screensaver act as a wallpaper. I made a shell script to do that for me. The command to execute the screen saver on the desktop is this:

/System/Library/Frameworks/ScreenSaver.framework/Resources/ScreenSaverEngine.app/Contents/MacOS/ScreenSaverEngine -background


Basically, it is the screensaver application, but with the command -background added to make it run as your desktop background.

Just copy and paste it into Terminal, and press enter. Close terminal to stop it.


How much cpu time does this use to just keep the screensaver running? I don't want a cool effect to take slow down my web surfing :D :D

CoreWeb
Mar 31, 2007, 03:56 PM
How much cpu time does this use to just keep the screensaver running? I don't want a cool effect to take slow down my web surfing :D :D

It uses surprisingly little CPU for me on my 30" monitor, using the RSS visualizer screensaver. I think it uses more graphics card than anything else, so most CPU-bound processes should run fine (with that screensaver).

I tested Flurry too - same results.

Snowy_River
Mar 31, 2007, 04:46 PM
It uses surprisingly little CPU for me on my 30" monitor, using the RSS visualizer screensaver. I think it uses more graphics card than anything else, so most CPU-bound processes should run fine (with that screensaver).

I tested Flurry too - same results.

While I'm sure it has to do with your computer, but I didn't find it quite so insubstantial on my PowerBook G4 1.67GHz. So, I ran some tests. It really depends on what screen saver you use, too.

Under no-load (i.e. a simple picture as the desktop):
http://www.ghwphoto.com/misc/No-Load.jpg

Using Flurry for the desktop:
http://www.ghwphoto.com/misc/Flurry.jpg

Using iTunes Artwork for the desktop:
http://www.ghwphoto.com/misc/iTunes-Artwork.jpg

Using 3D Matrix as the desktop:
http://www.ghwphoto.com/misc/3D-Matrix.jpg

And, by far the biggest hog of all, using Gold Fish Aquarium as the desktop:
http://www.ghwphoto.com/misc/Gold-Fish.jpg

So, as you can see, even Flurry adds a few bars of processor use on my machine. And Gold Fish, arguably the nicest desktop background option of the lot, maxed out my processor. So, as I said before, it seems like it's a big price to pay for a trivial bit of eye candy.

ExiMod
Mar 31, 2007, 05:51 PM
Old news. Just go to YouTube and put "multi touch" into the search. See what Jeff Han was doing last year. For a laugh you might also want to put "zenzui" into the search there as well. Compare the ZenZui UI to Han's version of Multi-Touch. Which would rather use, the fun organic interface or squares and boxes squares and boxes? Can you tell that Microsoft originally developed ZenZui? (ZenZui=Zune, get it? nudge nudge wink wink say no more)

Lixivial
Mar 31, 2007, 05:56 PM
Well, we are still waiting on that 3D (http://web.archive.org/web/19970629095724/theplan.apple.com/tech/3dfi.html) Finder (http://www.doctorgavin.com/Apple/finder.html), Apple. :rolleyes:

thenascarguy
Mar 31, 2007, 09:36 PM
On one of the first pages, someone mentioned the 3d interface being more like something we would see in OS 11. This made me think... could Leopard be the codename for OS 11?:confused:

Snowy_River
Mar 31, 2007, 09:45 PM
On one of the first pages, someone mentioned the 3d interface being more like something we would see in OS 11. This made me think... could Leopard be the codename for OS 11?:confused:

Not likely at all. As was said:

Apple has said they expect OS X to form the basis of their products for up to 20 years...

Nym
Apr 2, 2007, 10:42 AM
Yeah, that would make for an interesting OSX theme - I'm glad you made the connection...It would explain the system wide integration of core animation as the only serious technique available to enable photo realistic monkeys to run loose across the desktop, being chased by mathew broderick in a lab coat and glasses. I can see this helping in all kinds of new and inventive ways : monkeys turning up randomly to fold down menus, jumping up and down in excitment when downloads are finished, running up and grabbing folders and jumping into the Trash Can with them, Mathew using one of those big rope nets instead of lasso'ing multiple files - they could strangely turn into monkeys as they are 'netted', - you know the kind of thing. Maybe they could integrate a 'Planet of the Apes' expansion pack and we could have Charlton Heston ride in and thump the ground whilst berating us all to be 'b*stards'.

I wonder how Steve got it past the board ? :)

WTF?? ROTFL!! YOU'RE A GENIUS! :D

I'm at work and everyone here saw me laughing at the computer!! damn you!!! :(

lomolomo
Apr 2, 2007, 11:31 AM
As for 'kewl', Microsoft seems all about making things that are meant to be 'kewl'. This concept, which is the concept behind Xbox 360's design is, in my opinion, fading in popularity. Microsoft tried to use it in the Zune, and is using it in Aero.


wasn't the xbox designed by this axis thing
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002276090_xboxdesign16.html

mild-wild / archidectural- organic

and the xbox right in the middle - Maybe putting things in the middle doesn't make a statement it leads to "we please everybody" design
the same goes with the colour orange- it looks bold in drawing but no one want's it!

Nitromaster
Apr 2, 2007, 11:37 AM
Maybe its just official drivers for the wii remote?

Maybe,leopard will include 3 themes:
1.Aqua
2/3. New themes like nothing youve seen before
(one default theme,)

Also a panel in system preferences for customization (icons,themes,wallpapers,sound schemes,screensavers)
it would be nice to have an official way to change icons,
and also an easy way to create themes,
This would also have the effect of windows friendly(for bootcamp users,mac noobs) themes being created.

Also compiz or an effect plugin system would be nice.

psychofreak
May 6, 2007, 07:55 AM
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIlgXJrG5ic&NR=1) youtube video really shows some amazing 3D things. From around 5 minutes in you can see 3D menus that are just incredible.

siurpeeman
May 6, 2007, 08:20 AM
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIlgXJrG5ic&NR=1) youtube video really shows some amazing 3D things. From around 5 minutes in you can see 3D menus that are just incredible.

doesn't it look a bit like vista's flip3d? you should see part two of that movie. i have a feeling core animation is going to make leopard the prettiest mac os x to date.

BlackDan
May 6, 2007, 12:59 PM
Sorry, I don't buy it! Leopard will be like Tiger with a new skin (pun intended) and resolution independence. Apple may have some very cool looking extras (that we will all get bored of real soon, just like the coverflow-thing!) but it will not be a 3D GUI... Why would it be? there's no practical benefit...

I hope they allow for easy skinning/theming of your GUI. I'd love to have more Brushed metal (I know, the trend is going the other way, sadly).

SeVeN
May 6, 2007, 01:27 PM
I've been waiting for this since the first Jurassic Park movie...



lmao

GregA
May 6, 2007, 09:28 PM
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIlgXJrG5ic&NR=1) youtube video really shows some amazing 3D things. From around 5 minutes in you can see 3D menus that are just incredible.
It's a good video, thanks for the link.

The chance of us seeing those kinds of menus in Leopard is minimal, but the technologies that allow that kind of menu open up a range of possibilities. The key is to keep it easy to use... so lets hope Apple doesn't get caught up with the "coolness" at the expense of the ease of use.

I'd expect to see those technologies heavily integrated with the next AppleTV (and the OS upgrade to the existing AppleTV). The rewrite of Quicktime may also include some of this.. could make for some interesting new ways of presenting video or websites.

MikeTheC
May 7, 2007, 12:17 AM
Well, when you consider even the newest releases of Linux are now starting to come with 3D interfaces, even if technically unnecessary, Apple does need to "keep up with the Joneses" on this one.

I wish Steve Jobs would just bitch-slap Bill Gates and get it over with.

GregA
May 7, 2007, 12:26 AM
Well, when you consider even the newest releases of Linux are now starting to come with 3D interfaces, even if technically unnecessary, Apple does need to "keep up with the Joneses" on this one.

I wish Steve Jobs would just bitch-slap Bill Gates and get it over with.Apple doesn't need to compete with Linux for the desktop "ease of use" stakes.

However, it's good to see they've got an underlying technology that is capable of much... so where a new interface idea is a good one, it can be used without a 2nd thought.

clevin
May 9, 2007, 11:05 AM
Apple doesn't need to compete with Linux for the desktop "ease of use" stakes.

However, it's good to see they've got an underlying technology that is capable of much... so where a new interface idea is a good one, it can be used without a 2nd thought.

well, I thought so too until i read the number, OSX has 4.1% marketshare, and Linux has 3.8%, not that behind....:D

LeviG
May 9, 2007, 11:13 AM
well, I thought so too until i read the number, OSX has 4.1% marketshare, and Linux has 3.8%, not that behind....:D

I thought os-x had over 5% now and how many different versions of linux are there :rolleyes: Personally Linux is far too much hassle for me, I just want my rigs to work without all this compiling lark :D

ezekielrage_99
May 9, 2007, 07:45 PM
But, unlike Mac OS X, at least Vista is out :mad:

But the difference will be that Mac OSX is quality Vista isn't....

If Leopard is released in June (hopefully) it will be released a lot sooner than Vista's inital release date. Vista took ages because it was so buggy, at least Apple takes the time to test and then implement a quality product for the consumer to buy.

Dolorian
May 9, 2007, 10:40 PM
I hope they allow for easy skinning/theming of your GUI.

And what would be the practical benefit of that? :)


Evo

BlackDan
May 10, 2007, 04:53 AM
And what would be the practical benefit of that? :)


Evo

well, there isn't any, but everyone's doing it already, so why not have it built-in, instead of using 3rd party tools? (Besides I NEED more brushed metal :D )

A 3D interface IMHO may be counterintuitive though.