EU iTunes Antitrust Probe

[BoyBach]

The EU has launched a probe into what Apple's online music store iTunes charges users across Europe, accusing it of restricting customer choice.

Brussels believes agreements between Apple and record companies violate EU laws by preventing users in one country buying music from a site elsewhere.

The move follows a complaint by UK body Which? that British users have to pay more to download songs than others.

Apple said it wanted to offer a single European service but faced obstacles.

Different pricing

The Commission's move is unrelated to an agreement, announced on Monday, between iTunes and EMI to make the latter's music available online without piracy protection.

Brussels has written to iTunes and a number of unnamed record companies to notify them of their objections to the way music is sold, the first step in formal proceedings.

"Consumers can only buy music from the iTunes online stores in their country of residence and are therefore restricted in their choice of where to buy music," said EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd.

Research by Which? in 2005 found that UK users paid 79p (1.16 euros) to download a song compared with 66p (99 euro cents) in France and Germany.

Apple said it had always wanted to offer a fully pan-European service but was restricted by the demands of its music partners.

"We were advised by the music labels and publishers that there were certain legal limits to the rights they could grant us," it said in a statement.

The companies targeted by Brussels have two months in which to respond to the charges.

- BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6520677.stm)


It's about time.

We've being paying too much on too many things in the UK for far too long.

[Henri Gaudier]

... I want legislation! I'm sick of Apple screwing us Europeans. The whole thing is a rip off. I hate the principals espoused by the WTO but on this occasion I'd like to hold big business to them. They are limiting me through unfair and restrictive practices from buying music from the Canadian store where I believe they pay 0.99 CAD which is 0.65 euro or 44 pence. As far as I understand the heavy handed principals of globalisation this kind of protected market is illegal. As for anyone about to mount a copyright licence counter argument for different territories - don't! That's just another way for big business to screw you too. Also charging more for non DRM songs. There's no end to their greed is there?

The probe - it will take millions of euros and months to complete and at the end of the day you'll have a 700 page report that says "Apple are a bit naughty but what can you do?"

As for me it doesn't effect me as I prefer vinyl over CD and a CD over a download.

[garybUK]

Finally!! It's about time! I love the convenience of the iTunes store but they have been operating ILLEGALLY in the EU for some time now.

It's my RIGHT as a EU citizen to buy from any store anywhere in the EU, however Apple seem to deem this as not possible.

[clevin]

the "agreement between apple and records companies", Apple should have been tougher in the agreement if it actually "long wanted to offer a flat price". lol

guess how much the fine would be?

last time I checked, M$ was fined 1B.

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

AP News (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070402/eu_apple.html?.v=2) reports on a possible probe into Apple's online music store:

The Financial Times said Apple and several major music companies had been sent a "statement of objections" alleging that the deals underpinning the sale of music through iTunes in Europe might violate competition rules.

The charges are centered around the fact that iTunes limits sales to country-specific borders, rather than one central European music store.

Apple, however, maintains that this is due to record label restrictions:

Apple spokesman Steve Dowling said the company wanted to operate a single store for all of Europe, but music labels and publishers said there were limits to the rights that could they could grant to Apple.

"We don't believe Apple did anything to violate EU law," he said. "We will continue to work with the EU to resolve this matter."

[princealfie]

Finally, it's about time. Perhaps now I can order tunes from the French or German iTunes. Free the system!

[shigzeo]

it would be nice to have centralised distribution. there are too many good musiks that are not available to countries because of this policy. If it has to be changed from the distributors standpoint, then so be it, but it must change.

[longofest]

Unfortunately for Apple, it is Apple that is liable because they are the ones that operate the store and facilitate the interaction with the consumer.

If this lawsuit goes through (which I doubt), I'd expect to see Apple have to pay fines. Apple may have a case to then sue the labels, but I don't know if they'd want to do that.

In the end though, I expect a situation similar to what just happened with the DRM thing... Apple will squiggle out of their predicament at the last minute and avoid going to any kind of trial.

[killmoms]

This is idiotic. I guess they haven't heard of how record companies don't license across national borders. :rolleyes:

Also, someone has to say it...


NOT THE PROBE! :eek: I hope they use Lube™. :D

[princealfie]

Unfortunately for Apple, it is Apple that is liable because they are the ones that operate the store and facilitate the interaction with the consumer.

If this lawsuit goes through (which I doubt), I'd expect to see Apple have to pay fines. Apple may have a case to then sue the labels, but I don't know if they'd want to do that.

In the end though, I expect a situation similar to what just happened with the DRM thing... Apple will squiggle out of their predicament at the last minute and avoid going to any kind of trial.

It's simple. Just allow people to download tracks from any country they want. I vant my german rap!!! :rolleyes:

[Dagless]

This is silly. They want a giant single EU server powering iTunes rather than country specific ones, yet you can no longer import music into the UK from anywhere else in Europe.

The BBC are also reporting on the price of iTunes music in the UK, saying that our songs are 20% more expensive than mainland Europe.

I'd buy so many songs for 50p a pop.

[dernhelm]

What with the DRM free tracks from EMI and other record labels soon to follow, this "problem" will go away on its own. There won't be a "country specific" set of music stores, there will be one international portal. Apple would have nothing to gain by maintaining individual "stores" for each country.

I would think the EU would have bigger fish to fry than a short-term problem.

[Poff]

This is good for the British iTunes - they pay way too much.

(About 20% more than us Norwegians, and they even have less VAT than us.)

[shawnce]

It's simple. Just allow people to download tracks from any country they want. If only Apple had the right to do that... you think Apple wanted to go out and negotiate for distribution rights in each country like they had to? ...Apple would have loved to negotiate single distribution rights for all of the EU but that model doesn't exist at this time.

[crees!]

What with the DRM free tracks from EMI and other record labels soon to follow, this "problem" will go away on its own. There won't be a "country specific" set of music stores, there will be one international portal. Apple would have nothing to gain by maintaining individual "stores" for each country.

I would think the EU would have bigger fish to fry than a short-term problem.

I still though think these are two separate issues. One being DRM, the other being that the labels want to restrict which countries have access to which groups. Still, you can go on eBay and buy a record from another country. What's the difference? All and all it comes down to the labels changing their monopolistic practices.

[zombitronic]

Is it possible for someone in Europe to connect to the United States iTunes Store and download from across the ocean, or do ISPs restrict that? And if not restricted by protocols or ISPs, then what?

[Poff]

Is it possible for someone in Europe to connect to the United States iTunes Store and download from across the ocean, or do ISPs restrict that? And if not restricted by protocols or ISPs, then what?

It is only restricted by having an american visa or not. An american can still use the american iTS on vacation in europe.

[princealfie]

If only Apple had the right to do that... you think Apple wanted to go out and negotiate for distribution rights in each country like they had to? ...Apple would have loved to negotiate single distribution rights for all of the EU but that model doesn't exist at this time.

Who cares about distribution rights? This is a secret form of censorship not to let us get to listen to foreign music. I think that there needs to be one worldwide standard!

Grrr... how frustrating. I don't want to have run through loops just to download a track from the Fantastichen Vier or Vanessa Paradis. Europop here we come! :cool:

[melevittfl]

Is it possible for someone in Europe to connect to the United States iTunes Store and download from across the ocean,

No.

or do ISPs restrict that?

No.

And if not restricted by protocols or ISPs, then what?

Apple. They check the registered address of the credit card used to open the iTunes account and only allow you to purchase music from the iTunes store that matches the country you're in.

[running]

Is it possible for someone in Europe to connect to the United States iTunes Store and download from across the ocean, or do ISPs restrict that? And if not restricted by protocols or ISPs, then what?

You have to have credit card in that state (US, Germany) or you have to buy the gift card there. I know it, because there is no iTunes Store in my country.

[melevittfl]

This is idiotic. I guess they haven't heard of how record companies don't license across national borders. :rolleyes:

Which is why, according to the article:

"Apple and several major music companies had been sent a 'statement of
objections' "

[ogee]

I dont accept the "its the record label" cr@p. I can order a CD from Amazon france for delivery to Germany, or Amazon uk for delivery to italy. Why can I not download fro iTunes UK. Whats the difference?

The EU is a single market.

Sky TV also uses the same excuse for not providing its services to non UK residents, but they allow pubs in Spain to subscribe. I know the EU commission was investigating, but never heard what happened.

[shawnce]

Who cares about distribution rights? This is a secret form of censorship not to let us get to listen to foreign music. I think that there needs to be one worldwide standard! Apple has to care or else they would have been in court long ago... yeah it would be great for a regional or single distribution right system but that isn't going to magically happen without many parties and governments changing the structure of the system.

[Mydriasis]

Like some people have already mentioned, the main problem is the price difference between countries.

EU law says that products supplied to mulitple countries must have the same price in each country.

The big problem is the UK iTunes store where one song costs 0.79 £ which would be about 1.17€. The EU Commission is threating Apple with a fine of 488 million € (10% of yearly sales).

[Queso]

This is the beginning of something bigger. My guess is the real targets here are the media giants, those companies owned by Rupert Murdoch and Silvio Berlusconi, and it's not just about music. The EU wants to harmonise the licensing of all media across the Union and make it more like the system in the USA.

Apple is just caught in the crossfire.

[mutantteenager]

The charges are centered around the fact that iTunes limits sales to country-specific borders, rather than one central European music store.



One European-wide store can only mean more David Hasselhoff and more Roxette.

[princealfie]

Apple has to care or else they would have been in court long ago... yeah it would be great for a regional or single distribution right system but that isn't going to magically happen without many parties and governments changing the structure of the system.

I think that there must be some worldwide conspiracy preventing us from listening to Europop!

Price tiering structure should be equal amongst all of the countries of the EU. If they have a single standard of currency then what are they doing with various distribution rights?

Grr... frustrating... Apple is now in between a rock and a hard place considering that it's the govt. laws at fault.

[Poff]

You have to have credit card in that state (US, Germany) or you have to buy the gift card there. I know it, because there is no iTunes Store in my country.

soo... I can get a friend who lives in NY to buy me a gift card and then download movies from iTS?

[twoodcc]

interesting....hopefully they'll work it out...:apple:

[running]

This is the beginning of something bigger. My guess is the real targets here are the media giants, those companies owned by Rupert Murdoch and Silvio Berlusconi, and it's not just about music. The EU wants to harmonise the licensing of all media across the Union and make it more like the system in the USA.

Apple is just caught in the crossfire.

The European Commision just means a lot of bureaucracy and socialistic stuff. And nobody in EU actually understands what that guys really want.

[shawnce]

I dont accept the "its the record label" cr@p. I can order a CD from Amazon france for delivery to Germany, or Amazon uk for delivery to italy. Why can I not download fro iTunes UK. Whats the difference?

The EU is a single market.

They are shipping a physical product that some company negotiated the rights to manufacture (copy) and they are shipping from a known location... and most importantly physical shipments have long existed and hence have long since normalized in how they are done and what laws govern them.

In the case of Apple they are delivering a digital copy to the customer and the system generally sees the location of the delivered copy as being region that Apple would have to have distribution right in. Think of Apple like a radio station... radio stations have to negotiate for the rights to "distribute" in the region they operate in.

In other words the online world is stuck in an ill-defined legal reality at the moment and also since it is a new market the parties involved (record labels, trade organizations, unions, Apple, and governments) are attempting to impose contracts, etc. that are favorable to them since wiggle room exists... trying to set precedents.

[running]

soo... I can get a friend who lives in NY to buy me a gift card and then download movies from iTS?

Exactly. Plus, while registering, you have to enter some faked U.S. adress with existing zip-code.

[Poff]

Exactly. Plus, while registering, you have to enter some faked U.S. adress with existing zip-code.

aha.. so a new account aswell.. I guess that would be a bit unethical to do, then.. :( I think I'll pass for now, then, but thanks a lot for answering. :D

[shawnce]

the other being that the labels want to restrict which countries have access to which groups. Additionally labels have licensed exclusive distribution rights to particular companies in a given country or region. These contracts affect what distribution rights Apple (and others) can get and who they pay.

For example record label A granted distribution rights to some of its catalog to company B in UK and company C in France. Now say I live in France and buy something from the UK store... Apple delivers me a digital copy, the copy exists in France... now who gets payed, etc.?

[AndyR]

Exactly. Plus, while registering, you have to enter some faked U.S. adress with existing zip-code.

Beverley Hills 90210 :rolleyes:

[Queso]

The European Commision just means a lot of bureaucracy and socialistic stuff. And nobody in EU actually understands what that guys really want.
Not necessarily. As I posted in the other thread, do you honestly think EMI would have agreed to non-DRMd sales if the Commission hadn't made its voice heard on the matter?

It's difficult for Americans to understand because the Commission spends a lot of time pointing out where business needs to shape up for the benefit of the customers and telling them to sort it or else. The USA doesn't really have an equivalent to this. As a result everything over there is left to the free market, which can work very well but also is open to abuse by dominant players (like the record company cartel).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that no system is perfect, but just because it's different to what you're used to doesn't make it wrong.

[melevittfl]

EU law says that products supplied to mulitple countries must have the same price in each country.

No it doesn't.

The law is that every EU citizen can buy from any store anywhere in the EU. So, if something is cheaper in France than it is in Germany, a German customer can hop across the border and buy it in France.

This tends to harmonize prices (especially on goods that are easy to transport), but that's not what the law requires.

[princealfie]

Additionally labels have licensed exclusive distribution rights to particular companies in a given country or region. These contracts affect what distribution rights Apple (and others) can get and who they pay.

For example record label A granted distribution rights to some of its catalog to company B in UK and company C in France. Now say I live in France and buy something from the UK store... Apple delivers me a digital copy, the copy exists in France... now who gets payed, etc.?

BUt isn't this a complete JOKE? Why should I have to obtain a license to listen to Vanessa Paradis or Edith Piaf?

[nagromme]

From what I remember from long ago, I had the feeling that the legal agreements between labels, artists, distributors, etc. PREVENTED there being one store. For instance, I thought some artists were actually on a different label in one country vs. another.

In which case, this might not even be the labels' fault totally? Anyway, not Apple's fault--Apple wants one single store too.

And the EU surelu knows that. Maybe legal pressure on Apple is the only way they can proceed? Maybe Apple can use that as leverage to make the labels agree to one store if that's possible.

In other words, maybe Apple's happy about this pressure :) You never know.

[Uragon]

I am not being pro Apple here or anti EC/EU, but the EC sounds to me like the new dictatorial system in the whole Europe. They give deadlines to meet their requirements and sue these private companies particularly non-european companies. But most major music companies are european based and they cannot or don't investigate them. Also, is Apple right in saying that there are legal parameters in not having one iTunes for the whole europe. is this also the reason why it took some time for apple to have iTunes for different countries?

If so, can't EC find out these within their own doorstep? + x

[running]

Not necessarily. As I posted in the other thread, do you honestly think EMI would have agreed to non-DRMd sales if the Commission hadn't made its voice heard on the matter?

It's difficult for Americans to understand because the Commission spends a lot of time pointing out where business needs to shape up for the benefit of the customers and telling them to sort it or else. The USA doesn't really have an equivalent to this. As a result everything over there is left to the free market, which can work very well but also is open to abuse by dominant players (like the record company cartel).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that no system is perfect, but just because it's different to what you're used to doesn't make it wrong.

Huh, I live in EU my whole life (ok, the life is not THAT long) and I really don't like the way EU is heading. It's not only some musical stuff, it's more about bureaucracy and - what comes with bureaucracy - corruption.

I like the free market idea - and I hate socialistic / communistic idea of "shaping the market to the right form". Who say what is the right form? Only market itself.

This is more or less question of politics; however, if your country is in EU and the country want to be more liberal and less dependent on Brussels, they call you "euro-skeptic".

As I said before - the market has to shape the market, not the government. And that's why U.S.A. will still be more succesful in economics than whole EU. It's that simple I think. :)

[princealfie]

As I said before - the market has to shape the market, not the government. And that's why U.S.A. will still be more succesful in economics than whole EU. It's that simple I think. :)

Yeah right. We have the largest debt ratio here. I wouldn't call that successful by any means.

[Queso]

Huh, I live in EU my whole life (ok, the life is not THAT long) and I really don't like the way EU is heading. It's not only some musical stuff, it's more about bureaucracy and - what comes with bureaucracy - corruption.

I like the free market idea - and I hate socialistic / communistic idea of "shaping the market to the right form". Who say what is the right form? Only market itself.

This is more or less question of politics; however, if your country is in EU and the country want to be more liberal and less dependent on Brussels, they call you "euro-skeptic".

As I said before - the market has to shape the market, not the government. And that's why U.S.A. will still be more succesful in economics than whole EU. It's that simple I think. :)
The European Commission in this case is demanding that you have the right to shop around for the cheapest price for something, and you think this is a bad thing?? :confused: I'm against the political centralisation of Europe too, but this issue comes squarely in the area of the EEC's ideals before it morphed into the EU. In a European free market, I should have the right to buy media at the cheapest price I can find, and that includes online transactions. If a dominant cartel in the market is preventing that from happening, I'm glad someone is willing to stand up and tell them they must stop. Otherwise the market will never change its shape at all.

How is this related to bureaucracy?

[Poff]

I like the free market idea - and I hate socialistic / communistic idea of "shaping the market to the right form". Who say what is the right form? Only market itself.

Soo... you like stuff like monopoly and cartells? Because only the "socialistic / communistic idea of "shaping the market to the right form"" prevents stuff like that. If the market was to shape itself, we'd see a lot of companies forming cartells and jacking up their prices tenfold..

[Uragon]

Soo... you like stuff like monopoly and cartells? Because only the "socialistic / communistic idea of "shaping the market to the right form"" prevents stuff like that. If the market was to shape itself, we'd see a lot of companies forming cartells and jacking up their prices tenfold..

There are now laws, rules, that tries to limit the monopolistic tendencies of a particular company or industries in a free-market concept.

[shawnce]

BUt isn't this a complete JOKE? Why should I have to obtain a license to listen to Vanessa Paradis or Edith Piaf?

You as the end consumer doesn't. Apple, etc. as the distributor does.

[maxp1]

I bet Apple would LOVE to only have to operate one European site. Maintaining all that stuff separate must be a huge PITA.

[shawnce]

In other words, maybe Apple's happy about this pressure :) You never know.

Oh I think Apple is happy about this as long as it focuses on changing the system and doesn't end up being some unhelpful punitive measure against Apple, etc.

If you review some of the comments from the EU board is sounds like they realize that Apple is likely trapped by contracts that the labels and existing distribution channels have created over the years.

[Peace]

This sounds more like a EU problem.Not Apple or Music companies.

[SeaFox]

This sounds more like a EU problem.Not Apple or Music companies.

Indeed. The Slashdot commentary was most interesting, especially this (http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=229293&cid=18588641) post.

[Mac-Addict]

BBC just reported live about this story on BBC One 6PM News and seemed very much againts apple which they should be! Apple is over charging on uk customers for no reason, Why should I have to pay nearly £1, when people in amercia at the current rate pay around 50p or in the rest of europe where the you pay 99cents for a song which is about 60p.

[SeaFox]

BBC just reported live about this story on BBC One 6PM News and seemed very much againts apple which they should be! Apple is over charging on uk customers for no reason, Why should I have to pay nearl £1 when people in amercia at the current rate pay around 50p!

Why do I have to pay $45 for a CD by a Japanese artist on Amazon when American artists are ~$15? It doesn't cost $30 to ship overseas!

Your complaint has nothing to do with the current issue, you're just pissed at Apple for not pricing strictly according to exchange rates.

Even if the EU "wins" in this case the price difference would still be there. This is about the fact Apple should be charging the same price (I guess in Euros) and making the same tracks available for all EU countries. It has no effect on differences between the U.S. iTMS and the British iTMS. The effect could very well be everyone in Europe pays the same premium Britain pays after this.

[Uragon]

Indeed. The Slashdot commentary was most interesting, especially this (http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=229293&cid=18588641) post.


Thanks for the link. It makes more sense now. Hope this get settled soon for the benefit of the consumers (EU).

[BoyBach]

It's about time. I, for one, am totally fed-up of over paying for consumer electronics and cars amongst other things here in the UK.

If this means cheaper iTunes tracks and iPods it'll go a little towards appeasing me.

:D

[princealfie]

You as the end consumer doesn't. Apple, etc. as the distributor does.

Still that's lame. That's why I prefer listening to pop music from Russia or Ukraine. They keep things simple over there.

[BoyBach]

One European-wide store can only mean more David Hasselhoff and more Roxette.


Sounds good to me.

No, wait....

( :p )

[dernhelm]

In other words, maybe Apple's happy about this pressure :) You never know.

:confused:

No publicly traded international company would EVER by happy about a lawsuit brought against it by the EU. Until this is resolved, this can do nothing other than depress their stock (even if only by a little) as some investors will get skittish about such a lawsuit. Especially with ~$500M fines being bandied about.

That isn't to say that Apple can't use this opportunity to "make lemonade" (as it were), and get the music industry to see the stupidity of their ways.

But believe me, Apple isn't happy about this in the least.

[BoyBach]

The European Commision just means a lot of bureaucracy and socialistic stuff. And nobody in EU actually understands what that guys really want.

Huh, I live in EU my whole life (ok, the life is not THAT long) and I really don't like the way EU is heading. It's not only some musical stuff, it's more about bureaucracy and - what comes with bureaucracy - corruption.

I like the free market idea - and I hate socialistic / communistic idea of "shaping the market to the right form". Who say what is the right form? Only market itself.

This is more or less question of politics; however, if your country is in EU and the country want to be more liberal and less dependent on Brussels, they call you "euro-skeptic".

As I said before - the market has to shape the market, not the government. And that's why U.S.A. will still be more succesful in economics than whole EU. It's that simple I think. :)


More bureaucracy you say? The EU is responsible for the more than 490 million citizens of it's member countries yet it has only 24,000 employees (that's less than the BBC). I'd say that's very little bureaucracy for such a large organisation.

Also, I can't quite bring myself to get mad at the 'bureaucrats' for making it easier for me to travel and shop freely within the EU, and giving me human rights enshrined in law, and giving me the right to free medical aid when I travel in the EU, and I won't mention the Objective One funding to my local area, and...well you get the idea.

[princealfie]

The EU rocks compared to what we have here eh? :rolleyes:

[Poff]

There are now laws, rules, that tries to limit the monopolistic tendencies of a particular company or industries in a free-market concept.

Exactly my point. And with no such laws, consumers loose. That's why the free-market concept, which the poster I replied to was in favour of, will never work in reality.

[princealfie]

Yeah it's the free market that allows companies like Microsoft and other behemoths to survive.

So much for your free market idea allowing for more choice. Certainly not! :eek:

[Unspeaked]

BBC just reported live about this story on BBC One 6PM News and seemed very much againts apple which they should be! Apple is over charging on uk customers for no reason, Why should I have to pay nearly £1, when people in amercia at the current rate pay around 50p or in the rest of europe where the you pay 99cents for a song which is about 60p.


That's interesting - from my trips to the UK, I seem to recall HMV, Virgin and Tesco selling CDs for around £10-15.

Here in the US, the same discs go for around $10-20.

Also, I hear a PS3 retails for much more across the pond.

As do many, many other things.

All you Europeans need to refocus your energy on the general price discrepancies and not this relatively minor one from Apple, which just falls in line with music industry standards...

[Unspeaked]

:confused:

Until this is resolved, this can do nothing other than depress their stock (even if only by a little) as some investors will get skittish about such a lawsuit.

Yeah, it's depressing their stock a whole lot:

http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/b?s=AAPL


(That's today's chart...)

[melevittfl]

Indeed. The Slashdot commentary was most interesting, especially this (http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=229293&cid=18588641) post.

Except that the Slashdot commenter completely ignores the fact that the EU is investigating the record companies as well

Yes, Apple may be at the mercy of the copyright holders and must abide by their wishes, but that's why the record companies are being included in this investigation because they could allow Apple to sell the music without restricting it to one country per store.

[Poff]

Yeah it's the free market that allows companies like Microsoft and other behemoths to survive.

So much for your free market idea allowing for more choice. Certainly not! :eek:

But even that is just free-market tendencies. A total free market would be much worse. (Microsoft is somewhat limited with what they can do with todays laws.)

The laws in a lot of countries prevents cartels, for instance. What if there were no such laws? Computer companies come together and decide they wouldn't sell portables for less than $3000. If then an upstart company tried to make cheaper portables, the cartel could temporarily flush their prices until that new upstart was broke, and then enforce the $3000 limit again.

So those "communistic laws" are good for a lot of things. :)

[Queso]

That's interesting - from my trips to the UK, I seem to recall HMV, Virgin and Tesco selling CDs for around £10-15.

Here in the US, the same discs go for around $10-20.

Also, I hear a PS3 retails for much more across the pond.

As do many, many other things.

All you Europeans need to refocus your energy on the general price discrepancies and not this relatively minor one from Apple, which just falls in line with music industry standards...
Comparing UK prices to US prices is always going to make Europe look outrageously expensive, but that's exactly what the Commission has noticed. The UK is getting charged more than other EU states. Take the Sales Tax off and the Eurozone prices compare a lot more favourably than the UK ones.

[Unspeaked]

Comparing UK prices to US prices is always going to make Europe look outrageously expensive, but that's exactly what the Commission has noticed. The UK is getting charged more than other EU states. Take the Sales Tax off and the Eurozone prices compare a lot more favourably than the UK ones.


Isn't at least some of this due to the fact that the UK insists on using the pound as its main unit of currency?

I'd imagine things would fall in-line, or at least be more transparent, if they adopted the euro system like the rest of the EU...

The downside of having incredibly strong currency is that you'll get the short end of the stick with these types of pricing models.

[Queso]

Isn't at least some of this due to the fact that the UK insists on using the pound as its main unit of currency?

I'd imagine things would fall in-line, or at least be more transparent, if they adopted the euro system like the rest of the EU...
Anyone here can tell you exactly what the pound/euro rate is to within half a cent on any day. We know we're getting ripped off, a feeling a lot of Brit posters are expressing in this thread.

Personally I'm for the UK joining the Euro but the majority of Brits, just like the majority of Swedes and Danes, want to keep their own currency, so it isn't going to happen. The idea that we should somehow learn to accept being punished for this is ridiculous. My bank can change its pound/euro rate on a daily basis, even with charging a small premium (around 3-4%). But there's no way I'd accept my bank charging me 17% for that transaction, which is exactly what Apple are doing with the iTMS. Why can't Apple bring it more into line?

[SimonTheSoundMa]

No it doesn't.

The law is that every EU citizen can buy from any store anywhere in the EU. So, if something is cheaper in France than it is in Germany, a German customer can hop across the border and buy it in France.

This tends to harmonize prices (especially on goods that are easy to transport), but that's not what the law requires.
The reason why they have many stores is not to price fix, but to do with copyright and royalties over different territories.

In the UK for example, CD's have to be distributed in the UK territory and have to be marked with the MCPS logo on the disk, they cannot be imported from abroad.

Anyway, EU doesn't really mean anything for the UK, just to give our tax money to the French, Spanish etc.

[Poff]

Isn't at least some of this due to the fact that the UK insists on using the pound as its main unit of currency?

I'd imagine things would fall in-line, or at least be more transparent, if they adopted the euro system like the rest of the EU...

The downside of having incredibly strong currency is that you'll get the short end of the stick with these types of pricing models.

This has nothing to do with it. Norway uses NOK and not Euro, and they still more or less equal the eur-price.

[Drar3g]

Anyway, EU doesn't really mean anything for the UK, just to give our tax money to the French, Spanish etc.

Funds don't go to whole countries but to poor regions, therefore some areas in the UK must have received money from the EU too.

Besides, I thought that EU meant milions of brits (not exagerating) living in Spain and France, either studying, working, retired, using our medical facilities when the NHS doesn't quite get there, or even opening a bank account and enjoying cheaper prices on the iTunes Store :cool:

Greetings from Barcelona :)

[Queso]

Funds don't go to whole countries but to poor regions, therefore some areas in the UK must have received money from the EU too.

Besides, I thought that EU meant milions of brits (not exagerating) living in Spain and France, either studying, working, retired, using our medical facilities when the NHS doesn't quite get there, or even opening a bank account and enjoying cheaper prices on the iTunes Store :cool:

Greetings from Barcelona :)
Hola. Vaig a el meu apartament en Sitges aquest setmana per Pasqua :)

Oh and BTW, this is totally accurate. Spain, France, Portugal, Italy and Greece are all stuffed with Brits, and I'll be off at some point permanently too.

[macgpscs1]

This isn't about iTunes being more expensive in the EU than the US, or about a single EU iTunes store, it is about UK iTunes customers not being able to buy music from other EU countries' iTunes stores where it is cheaper. There appears to be a case to answer here as on the face of it this is against the EU trade treaties that set up the single market. A customer in the UK should be able to buy goods or services from any EU country. Whether it's Apple or the music companies who may have to answer to that case is another question.

[Drar3g]

Hola. Vaig a el meu apartament en Sitges aquest setmana per Pasqua :)

Sitges! Bon lloc per tenir un apartament ;)

The UK on-line store may be more expensive than the spanish one, but at least you're one of the few fortunate countries to have Apple shops.

[SeaFox]

Except that the Slashdot commenter completely ignores the fact that the EU is investigating the record companies as well

I feel (and I think the poster was trying to get this across) that the EU ought to investigate itself for not enforcing the directive that the record companies treat the entire EU as one market and change any other regulations that this idea hinges on.

Yes, Apple may be at the mercy of the copyright holders and must abide by their wishes, but that's why the record companies are being included in this investigation because they could allow Apple to sell the music without restricting it to one country per store.

My question is, what was Apple supposed to do instead? Say yes to their contract and then ignore the per-country licensing and get sued? I'm sure the EU would have loved that, let an American company pay the legal bills for what was really their case. I suppose Apple could have appealed to the EU to start with: Told them they wanted to open a single EU iTMS and the labels wouldn't play along when they were supposed to. That would have gotten them nowhere as well. Once the EU broke up the music industry's market setup, the labels would just deny Apple licensing out of spite then.

This really an issue the EU should have tackled back in 1992 when the Single Market Act went into effect. Until the EU does it's own work, I think they have little justification in including Apple in this at all. Amazon has separate websites for the UK and Germany and I don't see them named in this lawsuit.

[Queso]

Sitges! Bon lloc per tenir un apartament ;)

The UK on-line store may be more expensive than the spanish one, but at least you're one of the few fortunate countries to have Apple shops.
Moltes Gracies!

Once Apple get their backsides in gear, I can see at least six stores in Spain; Two in Madrid, two in Barcelona, one in Valencia, one in Sevilla, possibly another in Marbella due to all the money down there. I think if they expand Italy quickly they'll have the resources to start opening in 2008.

Anyway, we're getting off-topic :p

[sjo]

My question is, what was Apple supposed to do instead?



they should have reported the cartel of the music companies and submit the documents to help the investigation.



This really an issue the EU should have tackled back in 1992 when the Single Market Act went into effect. Until the EU does it's own work, I think they have little justification in including Apple in this at all.



so i suppose you can name several stores that refuse to sell cds to a citizen of another eu country and that the commission haven't sued?


Amazon has separate websites for the UK and Germany and I don't see them named in this lawsuit.

you can buy from the uk amazon if you're german and from german amazon if you're british. no problem, just choose which ever is cheaper. i've shopped from us, uk, german and france amazon based on differences in prices, delivery costs and availability of merchandise. pretty easy actually, you don't even need to register again if you've already registered in one of them.

[killmoms]

Personally I'm for the UK joining the Euro but the majority of Brits, just like the majority of Swedes and Danes, want to keep their own currency, so it isn't going to happen. The idea that we should somehow learn to accept being punished for this is ridiculous. My bank can change its pound/euro rate on a daily basis, even with charging a small premium (around 3-4%). But there's no way I'd accept my bank charging me 17% for that transaction, which is exactly what Apple are doing with the iTMS. Why can't Apple bring it more into line?

Just us ex-colonists getting a few easy digs in at our former imperialist masters. ;)

(Kidding of course, I love Britain, just... will never live there, too expensive!)

[Kilamite]

Come in quite late in the discussion so don't know if its been said;

Doesn't tax affect the over all price of the songs too? Fair enough we're paying more in the UK, but we're taxed 17.5% on everything (VAT), where as likes of Spain is 7% (correct me if I'm wrong, can't remember off the top of my head). That could lead to quite different prices?

Different currencies between the UK and the EU (£ to €) also cause exchange rate fluctuations.

However, does seem silly to be paying more for something in one country than another; but wasn't that the same story with CD's released in music stores?

[abbot]

If what Apple says is true, then Amazon would not allow me to buy music or dvd's from their UK or US store either (I live in Germany), and I have been able to do that forever. Cannot even download the free songs from another store they are so restrictive!

This is really great news! Also means if we buy videos we won't have to pay double the price than in the US either... I hope....

[dialectician]

Excellent News! I am glad the EU is taking on this racketeering attempts by Apple and the Music cartel! :D

The DRM-free music offer by Apple and EMI is a step in the right direction. Now they just have to sell DRM-free music for a single price everywhere and stop seeling DRM music.

[Queso]

Doesn't tax affect the over all price of the songs too? Fair enough we're paying more in the UK, but we're taxed 17.5% on everything (VAT), where as likes of Spain is 7% (correct me if I'm wrong, can't remember off the top of my head). That could lead to quite different prices?

Different currencies between the UK and the EU (£ to €) also cause exchange rate fluctuations.
All iTMS European stores are based in Luxembourg and pay their 15% VAT rate. Also if you look at the pound/euro exchange rate from June 2004 when the UK iTMS was launched until now it has not fluctuated much at all, virtually staying completely within the 1.45 to 1.50 range. But that is once again beside the point. I should be allowed to purchase from iTMS Germany or France if I so choose.

[Kilamite]

Ahh gotcha.

Am I missing the point but why couldn't they just make a "Euro store" and currency conversions are done through your bank if neccessary?

[Drar3g]

Doesn't tax affect the over all price of the songs too? Fair enough we're paying more in the UK, but we're taxed 17.5% on everything (VAT), where as likes of Spain is 7% (correct me if I'm wrong, can't remember off the top of my head).

No, that's not correct. I'm not an expert on the subject, but as far as I know there's a 15% compulsory VAT tax which some EU countries may choose to raise (16% in Spain, 17,5% in UK) in order to reduce prices on selected products. Thus in the UK petrol or power have a 5% VAT added only. In a similar fashion some products are charged a 7% VAT only in Spain.

Furthermore some regions were given VAT exemption to compensate from geographical isolation, as happens with the Canary Islands. So, no easy life under the sun. Except for the Canary Islands, of course ;)

The reasons for higher iTunes Store prices must come from somewhere else.

[Stella]

Americans have no concept of a government that wants to product its consumers.

Until they understand this, they have no right to comment on EU issue with Apple.

* I realise that not americans are so closed minded.

[shawnce]

Americans have no concept of a government that wants to product its consumers. How about that for a little non-reality. :eek:

[Queso]

How about that for a little non-reality. :eek:
You say that, but all I've read across the Net all day is Americans putting down the "Socialist" EU for bringing up this issue at all :rolleyes:

[Cult Follower]

There should be just 1 store for all of europe

[shawnce]

There should be just 1 store for all of europe

Apple agrees with ya (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/174096756/m/997006224831?r=854005424831#854005424831).

"We don't believe Apple did anything to violate EU law," the company said. Apple said that while it "always wanted to operate a single, pan-European iTunes store accessible by anyone from any member state", it was "advised by the music labels and publishers that there were certain legal limits to the rights" they could be granted. (http://www.euro2day.gr/articlesfna/31892787/)
(and so do I... heck I want a single world store)

[aristotle]

You guys are not listening to what other people are saying. This might be an EU problem. The EU seems to think they can dictate what the artists and their labels want to charge for the "works". These songs are electronic and so they are not "goods". The copyright holders should be able to charge what the market will accept in each market.

I don't care if the UK is part of the EU. They still use the GBP instead of the Euro and they have their own taxation policies.

Until they adopt the Euro, they should not be considered a full part of the EU and laws such as this should not apply even to physical goods such as CDs. I recall speaking with people in Italy about the transition to the Euro and many of them complained about how their wages actually fell in relation to the prices quite sharply because of the transition from the Lira.

I suspect that all of the whining Brits will be screaming bloody murder when the UK does transition over to the Euro and they find how much purchasing power they will have lost domestically as well as abroad. You people really should shut up before you force the adoption of the Euro sooner rather than later and you end up with lower wages and lower purchasing power when you travel. You people do not realize that the grass in not greener on the continent.

[grendel9]

But even that is just free-market tendencies. A total free market would be much worse. (Microsoft is somewhat limited with what they can do with todays laws.)

The laws in a lot of countries prevents cartels, for instance. What if there were no such laws? Computer companies come together and decide they wouldn't sell portables for less than $3000. If then an upstart company tried to make cheaper portables, the cartel could temporarily flush their prices until that new upstart was broke, and then enforce the $3000 limit again.

So those "communistic laws" are good for a lot of things. :)

A totally free market would kill microsoft almost instantly, period.
A totally free market does not have the laws that allow companies to do what microsoft has done, no patents, not copyrights.
You could copy windows verbatum and sell it as "Microsoft Windows". Most of the laws having to do with the markets cause the problems, prices are kept outrageously high by legislation that forces companies to spend more money on stpid crap, etc.. much of it especially the EPA stuff based on psudo science.
So no, a totally free market would not be worse, more government intervention makes it worse, the worst things that have happened in the last couple decades are extending or copyrights and software patents, these two things will slow progress and cost the consumer tons of money.

[DaveTheGrey]

I like the free market idea - and I hate socialistic / communistic idea of "shaping the market to the right form". Who say what is the right form? Only market itself

my economics professor would turn in his grave, at least if he would be dead :D

[Veldek]

My bank can change its pound/euro rate on a daily basis, even with charging a small premium (around 3-4%). But there's no way I'd accept my bank charging me 17% for that transaction, which is exactly what Apple are doing with the iTMS. Why can't Apple bring it more into line?That's the everyday work of a bank. But Apple isn't a bank. It would be very inconvenient if you had a pricing system with prices that change every day.

This isn't a punishment for the UK not using the Euro. I agree though that if the UK had the Euro, they would pay 99 cents just like everyone else.

[macgpscs1]

You guys are not listening to what other people are saying. This might be an EU problem. The EU seems to think they can dictate what the artists and their labels want to charge for the "works". These songs are electronic and so they are not "goods". The copyright holders should be able to charge what the market will accept in each market.


The EU is not attempting to dictate what artists and labels can charge for their works. It is attempting to enforce the treaties which say that people in one EU country can buy goods and services from any other EU country. This isn't about the price being higher in the UK. It's about people in the UK not being able to choose to buy from somewhere else in the EU at a lower price, as is their legal right.


I don't care if the UK is part of the EU. They still use the GBP instead of the Euro and they have their own taxation policies.

Until they adopt the Euro, they should not be considered a full part of the EU and laws such as this should not apply even to physical goods such as CDs.

Well you can come up with whatever definition you like for being a "full" part of the EU but in law the UK is a member of the EU and so the law applies. Whatever you think about EU political union, these laws are about trade - they are not socialist laws, but are there to ensure there is a free market across the EU without countries imposing artificial tariffs and barriers. All people are asking for in the UK is access to this free market where if the price is higher in the UK than the rest of the EU, we can choose to buy elsewhere.

[Queso]

YI suspect that all of the whining Brits will be screaming bloody murder when the UK does transition over to the Euro and they find how much purchasing power they will have lost domestically as well as abroad. You people really should shut up before you force the adoption of the Euro sooner rather than later and you end up with lower wages and lower purchasing power when you travel. You people do not realize that the grass in not greener on the continent.
The UK is already paying way more for goods than their Euro prices. If post-adoption price gouging was attempted here, the only people who would make money from the transition would be courier firms importing packages from the Continent.

That first wave of countries had nobody to compare their new prices against. We would.

[BoyBach]

You guys are not listening to what other people are saying. This might be an EU problem. The EU seems to think they can dictate what the artists and their labels want to charge for the "works". These songs are electronic and so they are not "goods". The copyright holders should be able to charge what the market will accept in each market.

I don't care if the UK is part of the EU. They still use the GBP instead of the Euro and they have their own taxation policies.

Until they adopt the Euro, they should not be considered a full part of the EU and laws such as this should not apply even to physical goods such as CDs. I recall speaking with people in Italy about the transition to the Euro and many of them complained about how their wages actually fell in relation to the prices quite sharply because of the transition from the Lira.

I suspect that all of the whining Brits will be screaming bloody murder when the UK does transition over to the Euro and they find how much purchasing power they will have lost domestically as well as abroad. You people really should shut up before you force the adoption of the Euro sooner rather than later and you end up with lower wages and lower purchasing power when you travel. You people do not realize that the grass in not greener on the continent.


This isn't about the EU 'dictating' to companies what they can charge for it's products. It's about upholding one of the key tenets of the EU, that of the 'four freedoms' within the Single Internal Market:

The Single European Market stands for ‘free movement’ of people, goods, services and capital.

On a practical level, it means the possibility for EU citizens to live, work, study and do business throughout the EU as well as to enjoy a wide choice of competitively priced goods and services.

Since its inception in 1993, the Single Market has opened up economic and working opportunities that have transformed the lives of hundreds of millions of Europeans.

Removing the barriers that still prevent citizens and business from fully enjoying the benefits of the Single Market is a key aim of the European Commission.

Link (http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/index_en.htm)