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Porshuh944turbo
Jun 13, 2003, 05:39 AM
I've been thinking about getting a handgun to have, not carry, at the house. I'm not really sure what to get.. I was thinking a GLock 23, but also thinking about Ruger. - any gun types here?

Megaquad
Jun 13, 2003, 06:54 AM
Planning on shooting someone?
Just asking.. :D :D

kylos
Jun 13, 2003, 07:02 AM
If you're planning on using it for home defense it would probably be better to get a shotgun. Quite a bit more intimidating. Most perps will run when they hear you chamber a shell.

jefhatfield
Jun 13, 2003, 07:05 AM
hey, you're from texas...can't you get a rocket launcher there for home protection?;)

mangoman
Jun 13, 2003, 07:20 AM
There's a boatload of good choices out there. I'm a fan of Glock, personally. Lightweight, easy to grip, and, in the smaller calibers (such as the 9mm Glock 17), very accurate right outta the box.

Your BEST bet would be to find a reputable gun shop in your area and layout your needs with someone there. Let 'em know how much you'd like to spend, get your hand around something, inquire about the gun's reputation, etc.

These days my home protection is a Mossberg Persuader 590 -- the all black, milspec edition. A beauty -- and it makes that sweet internationally-known sound: "chink-chink".

Cheers,

mm

jefhatfield
Jun 13, 2003, 07:26 AM
whatever you do, don't show this thread to mischief;)

mangoman
Jun 13, 2003, 07:30 AM
Who's mischief?

jefhatfield
Jun 13, 2003, 07:34 AM
he is the most heavily armed member of macrumors...from waaay back

his weapon of choice....the pie

his special forces team...clowns:D :D :D

mangoman
Jun 13, 2003, 07:35 AM
:p

jefhatfield
Jun 13, 2003, 07:46 AM
i take it you did a search and came across one of his pie threads

FriarTuck
Jun 13, 2003, 08:28 AM
Five days? But I'm angry NOW!

WinterMute
Jun 13, 2003, 08:33 AM
They won't let us play with anything dangerous here in the UK, last time I looked it was illegal to run with scissors:mad: :mad:

I've shot lots of stuf here, my ex-brother-in-law is a Royal Marines weapons instructor in Portsmouth, bot lots of lovely guns down there:D

Kyle?'s right though, get a good shotgun, but get one with a proper stock, not one of those pistol grip pumps, they bloody hurt your hand when you use them.

bbarnhart
Jun 13, 2003, 09:13 AM
I'm not anti-gun at all. I have several for hunting and target practice and enjoy using them. However, statistics show the best way to save your life during an intruder is to call 911 and then leave your house. It take time to get your gun, load it and then "find" the person in your house to shoot them.

Also, the safety issue of a heated argument, your kids or other children finding a loaded gun in your house outweighs the possibility of defending your home. The best way to defend your home is an alarm system. When an intruder enters your house and sets off the alarm they will almost always immediately leave. If they don't leave immediately, they do not stay long.

If you want a gun to defend your home get a semi-auto shotgun. Make sure you turn on a light so when the intruder is near, you can see who it is. It'd be a pity to shoot your daughter's boyfriend (or maybe it wouldn't).

mactastic
Jun 13, 2003, 09:30 AM
I'm a fan of the shotgun with one of those lights on the end you can trigger with your finger/thumb. Good for getting an id on your target and freezing them like a deer in headlights before you actually have to shoot. Plus you've got a lot more stopping power than with a handgun, unless you are planning on going with a .45 or something. I'd go shooting at a good, reputable gun store/range with a variety of different guns first though. Find out which one you feel most comfortable with.

Edit: And for gods sake, lock it up if there are kids around!

skunk
Jun 13, 2003, 09:39 AM
I'd love to see some statistics showing just how many householders over there have successfully defended themselves/their families/their houses by using a gun, against how many have shot family members/daughter's boyfriends/the dog - or encouraged the intruder to shoot.

Sun Baked
Jun 13, 2003, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by jefhatfield
he is the most heavily armed member of macrumors...from waaay back

his weapon of choice....the pie

his special forces team...clowns:D :D :D Yes, but somehow these people always ended up with pie on their own face...

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=199728

Foxer
Jun 13, 2003, 09:48 AM
I've got to back up the shotgun suggestion for home defense. The best thing to do, though, is never allow the situation to get to the point where you'd need to shoot - home alarm, dog, good locks, etc.

And be sure to know safe storage/use tips.

dabirdwell
Jun 13, 2003, 10:35 AM
Only buy a gun if you are planning on killing something that is currently alive, that is the only purpose of firearms.

pseudobrit
Jun 13, 2003, 10:44 AM
The only people who need handguns are cops and armored car drivers (and other high risk jobs).

The shotgun's a good idea; you could keep a rifle though too as they're more practical for other uses. Either one's good for more than just home defense -- my grandpa used to have a farm and his rifle was used for shooting the skunks that he trapped (so they wouldn't burrow into his well and drown and stink up the water).

A gun is a tool, and just as there are very few jobs where you need a Torx wrench, there are just as few where the best choice for the job is a handgun. It's more likely to be stolen and used by thugs than it is to ever protect your property.

I think there's a statistic out there where handguns are only used on the intruder in something like 2% of break-ins. More often, it's stolen during the break-in. And handguns are more likely to kill the homeowner or a family member than they are to kill an intruder.

pseudobrit
Jun 13, 2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by dabirdwell
Only buy a gun if you are planning on killing someone, that is the only purpose of firearms.

No, that's a handgun. Other guns are versatile and can be used for many useful tasks (or target practice), especially if you own some decent acreage.

jefhatfield
Jun 13, 2003, 10:50 AM
if i can't protect myself with mischief's pie brigade, i would hire the most talented woman in the world to protect me

dabirdwell
Jun 13, 2003, 10:58 AM
Get a dog.

Or just lock your doors.

Very few people live in an area where it even matters whether or not the doors are locked.

mactastic
Jun 13, 2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
A gun is a tool, and just as there are very few jobs where you need a Torx wrench, there are just as few where the best choice for the job is a handgun. It's more likely to be stolen and used by thugs than it is to ever protect your property.

Ahh, but when you need a torx wrench, there is absolutely nothing else that will do the job.

ColoJohnBoy
Jun 13, 2003, 11:43 AM
Planning on getting a gun for home protection? Hmmmmmm... I have an idea:




How 'bout you don't.

skunk
Jun 13, 2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Either one's good for more than just home defense -- my grandpa used to have a farm and his rifle was used for shooting the skunks that he trapped (so they wouldn't burrow into his well and drown and stink up the water).
Hey, lay off the skunks, man! :(

G4scott
Jun 13, 2003, 11:48 AM
Hey, the guy's from Texas, the most heavily armed state in this country... In Texas, lots of people have guns. My US History/Government teacher had a handgun (she never brought it to school, but she had it none the less...)

I know somebody who sells guns... Anybody crazy enough to break into his house is asking for it BIG TIME... He has enough guns and ammo to put up a fair fight against al-quaeda, and this was before Bush got to them...

For some reason, guns are just a part of Texas living. My family owns maybe one or two rifles, and one or two shotguns (I'm not really sure how much...) We use them exclusively for hunting, though. I think my dad has a pistol, and the only time he's ever used it was with this stupid dog we had... He was big, and occasionally got out of hand. My dad used only blanks in it, though. A handgun is much more useful for home defense, IMHO, because you can keep it stashed in a drawer or somewhere close to where you sleep (now if you have kids, and you can't trust them, then lock it up...)

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by dabirdwell
Get a dog.

Or just lock your doors.

Very few people live in an area where it even matters whether or not the doors are locked.


ummm... tell that to anybody that lives in Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, Dallas, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., etc and you will be DEAD wrong. (pun intended).

Handguns are also useful for people that actually enjoy shooting them at paper targets. Sure some people will use them for more nefarious purposes (murder, rape, and a whole lot more), but the vast majority of handgun owners never have any intention of killing anybody. To say so is as silly as saying you shouldn't have a car, because you might kill someone with it.

I will also agree, shotgun is the best bet for home defense. BUT, always learn all the safety standards and practices for a particular firearm.

BTW I am NOT a firearm owner.

G4scott
Jun 13, 2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
Planning on getting a gun for home protection? Hmmmmmm... I have an idea:




How 'bout you don't.

You don't realize that in Texas, the people who break into your house are more likely to have a gun... If the guy's qualified to own a handgun, and doesn't have any intent to harm innocent people, then let him get it... I'll bet you drive a car. Your car can be just as dangerous as a gun. So why don't we ban cars, because they kill people?

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by RugoseCone
ummm... tell that to anybody that lives in Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, Dallas, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., etc and you will be DEAD wrong. (pun intended).


i live in nyc, and i don't feel unsafe. so, you can cross that one off.. unless maybe you meant the albany or syracuse areas? or the hamptons maybe? ;)

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by G4scott
You don't realize that in Texas, the people who break into your house are more likely to have a gun... If the guy's qualified to own a handgun, and doesn't have any intent to harm innocent people, then let him get it... I'll bet you drive a car. Your car can be just as dangerous as a gun. So why don't we ban cars, because they kill people?

first of all, they never said to ban guns

second of all, what's the primary use for a gun? to get you from point a to point b right? oh, no. that's a car... ok then.

skunk
Jun 13, 2003, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by RugoseCone
To say so is as silly as saying you shouldn't have a car, because cars kill people.
Guns aren't much good for getting around in...

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 11:54 AM
Jello,

I didn't suggest that one can't feel safe in a large metro. Do you leave your doors unlocked? I live in a big city and I feel perfectly safe, but that doesn't mean I won't lock my doors.

skunk
Jun 13, 2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by G4scott
I think my dad has a pistol, and the only time he's ever used it was with this stupid dog we had... He was big, and occasionally got out of hand. My dad used only blanks in it, though.
What dog-training school did your dad go to?

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by skunk
Guns aren't much good for getting around in...


Unless you're a car-jacker!

skunk
Jun 13, 2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by RugoseCone
Unless you're a car-jacker!
I rest my case. :rolleyes:

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by RugoseCone
Jello,

I didn't suggest that one can't feel safe in a large metro. Do you leave your doors unlocked? I live in a big city and I feel perfectly safe, but that doesn't mean I won't lock my doors.

so you were specifically responding to the part where they said "Very few people live in an area where it even matters whether or not the doors are locked."

so that's fair enough.

but. they're right... besides major metro areas, and some suburbs, there are tons of places where people don't lock their doors, and don't feel unsafe... the person didn't say "no one needs to lock their doors"... but was referencing some places. in fact, they even had said "lock your doors"... anyhoo.

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by skunk
I rest my case. :rolleyes:

So everybody that owns a firearm is a carjacker, murderer, burglar, rapist, etc?

skunk
Jun 13, 2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by RugoseCone
So everybody that owns a firearm is a carjacker, murderer, burglar, rapist, etc?
Did I say that??? :confused:

JesseJames
Jun 13, 2003, 12:00 PM
Just get a cast-iron frying pan. Cheaper, and makes satisfying 'DOING' sound when you hit someone over the head.

skunk
Jun 13, 2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by JesseJames
Just get a cast-iron frying pan. Cheaper, and makes satisfying 'DOING' sound when you hit someone over the head.
Pretty bullet-proof, too :D

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
so you were specifically responding to the part where they said "Very few people live in an area where it even matters whether or not the doors are locked."

so that's fair enough.

but. they're right... besides major metro areas, and some suburbs, there are tons of places where people don't lock their doors, and don't feel unsafe... the person didn't say "no one needs to lock their doors"... but was referencing some places. in fact, they even had said "lock your doors"... anyhoo.


Yes I was replying to that specifically and I also agree that there are lots of places where people don't lock their doors. That's why I added the names of large U.S. cities.

Dabirdwell said "very few people live..." I wouldn't say NYC and suburbs 22mil population is exactly very few...

MacAztec
Jun 13, 2003, 12:04 PM
Get a glock. I have used my dads guns, and the glock 17 is lightweight and very accurate. Do not get a shotgun, as they are too big for easy access. unless you are interested in sawed off shotguns :D

Whats the big deal with owning a gun? Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by skunk
Did I say that??? :confused:


No. But it does seem implied in your posts. I'm not trying to offend you here, so please accept my apologies if I am misreading your feelings on this subject.

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by RugoseCone
Dabirdwell said "very few people live..." I wouldn't say NYC and suburbs 22mil population is exactly very few...

good point. can't say i read his response very closely, especially because he'd since edited it and i don't usually read the entire quote someone is replying to.

i wonder what % of the population of the country lives in cities at least as large as like nashville (ie, not huge cities, but major metro areas nonetheless)... i'd say most suburbians, and almost all country folk (save maybe texas) can go without locking their doors fairly comfortably.

but i agree that it's not "very few"..

skunk
Jun 13, 2003, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by MacAztec
Whats the big deal with owning a gun? Guns dont kill people, people kill people.
People kill people with guns

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 12:09 PM
I was about to jump the gun and say that the U.S. population is mostly in large metro areas, but that is likely not the case.

My guess would be a 50/50 or 60/40 in favor of rural/small towns.

skunk
Jun 13, 2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by RugoseCone
please accept my apologies if I am misreading your feelings on this subject.
Apologies accepted :)

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by MacAztec
Whats the big deal with owning a gun? Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

hahahah. you just get your nra handbook or something?

cars don't pollute, people pollute... nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people... same logic applies.... so let's start prosecuting all people who pollute more than an allowed x amount (which would vary and take into account where they live, how many kids, etc), and we also don't have to worry about ending the creation of nuclear weapons, we just need to kill everyone who might use em. awesome!

AhmedFaisal
Jun 13, 2003, 12:22 PM
If you are getting this for household defense I would get a shotgun or a Desert Eagle Semi Automatic Handgun (Cal. 45). I have both. Main reason, if someone breaks into my house and is armed I want to make sure he has no chance of shooting back. Also the Shotgun and the Desert Eagle do not require such an accurate aim as a smaller caliber, they kill or disable wherever you hit.

Ahmed

pseudobrit
Jun 13, 2003, 12:26 PM
If you're worried about home protection (against humans and animals), you want a rifle or a shotgun. It's a more versatile weapon that can be used more confidently with higher accuracy at a stand-off range.

Handguns are designed for one thing: killing people. And that's what they do best. Having a loaded, accessible handgun in the house statistically raises the chances of someone in your house dying from it higher than you using it to defend your property.

It's like using a campfire in the middle of your living room to cook every night because you shut off the gas main since you're afraid of gas leaks blowing up your house. You've traded one vague remote danger for a different and more serious one.

pseudobrit
Jun 13, 2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by G4scott
Hey, the guy's from Texas, the most heavily armed state in this country... In Texas, lots of people have guns.

Pennsylvania is the most heavily armed state. In Penna, lots of people have lots of guns.

scem0
Jun 13, 2003, 12:34 PM
guns are bad. DOn't get a gun. Relative to the negative uses there are next to no positive uses for a gun.

http://www.my-smileys.de/axis-li-kill.gifhttp://www.my-smileys.de/ak.gifhttp://www.my-smileys.de/ak47.gifhttp://www.my-smileys.de/11shot.gif

If I hate 2 things in this world they are guns and cigarettes.

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 12:37 PM
wow... i agree with scem0????? notify the press! ;)

edit: and he ruined it by adding those annoying ass smileys.... uggh

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 12:39 PM
I think it would be cool if no one had guns (including the police) and everybody walked around with swords... or frying pans.

scem0
Jun 13, 2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule

edit: and he ruined it by adding those annoying ass smileys.... uggh

just to prove my point! Guns only serve to annoy people - not to mention commit illegal acts, kill people, get in the posession of children, pets (did you hear about the killer parrots that screamed 'I don't want a ****ing cracker mother-****ers!'????????? Neither did I), and irresponsibles.

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

AhmedFaisal
Jun 13, 2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by scem0
guns are bad. DOn't get a gun. Relative to the negative uses there are next to no positive uses for a gun.

Tell that to the guy that breaks into your house with a gun that shoots you and your family. I own guns because I prefer it to be him rather then me and my family that goes out the door in a bag.
Cheers,

Ahmed

dabirdwell
Jun 13, 2003, 12:44 PM
Nobody ever blames the violence itself. It's always just the wrong kind of voilence, directed at the wrong people or with the wrong instrument.

Nobody questions the socialization into violence that comes from a culture where it is considered normal.

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Tell that to the guy that breaks into your house with a gun that shoots you and your family.

how often does that happen in general?

how many times has it happened to you?

how many times do handguns get in the hands of children and end up killing that way?


edit: scem- your smileys are annoying in general. not just because they have guns.. also, take your ritalin.

AhmedFaisal
Jun 13, 2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by scem0
just to prove my point! Guns only serve to annoy people - not to mention commit illegal acts, kill people, get in the posession of children, pets

Just to add some salt to the discussion (no I am NOT an NRA = National Roundup of *******s Member). Most gun related crimes are commited with illegal weapons, not weapons bought in a regular store. Its not the problem that people can legally buy guns, the problem is that there is too many people out there with illegal guns and ****/crack for brains.
Cheers,

Ahmed

scem0
Jun 13, 2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by RugoseCone
I think it would be cool if no one had guns (including the police) and everybody walked around with swords... or frying pans.

I second this. Guns != skill. Guns == sudden death or injury.

If I was to fight someone, I would rather both of us no have guns, then both of us have guns. Then the fight would be fair. I would have a chance to run away, or to kick some ass, depending on http://www.my-smileys.de/blossom.gif or http://www.my-smileys.de/alienlunch.gif ;).

A fair contest to me is not a contest of who can have the best gun or who can pull the trigger the fastest.

I realize that defending yourself isn't a mere contest, but if the world had no guns then everything would be so much fairer and easier.

:o...

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

AhmedFaisal
Jun 13, 2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
how often does that happen in general?

how many times has it happened to you?

how many times do handguns get in the hands of children and end up killing that way?


To the first, it happened twice in my neighborhood already.
To the second. That's why i have safety locks on my guns and they are in a locked closet to which only I and my wife have the keys.
Cheers,

Ahmed

scem0
Jun 13, 2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Just to add some salt to the discussion (no I am NOT an NRA = National Roundup of *******s Member). Most gun related crimes are commited with illegal weapons, not weapons bought in a regular store. Its not the problem that people can legally buy guns, the problem is that there is too many people out there with illegal guns and ****/crack for brains.
Cheers,


Thats like saying that the parents of the Columbine kids werent partially responsible for the shootings, when they were because they owned guns.

See, legally bought guns often end up in irresponsible hands (as I said in a previous post).

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

scem0
Jun 13, 2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Tell that to the guy that breaks into your house with a gun that shoots you and your family. I own guns because I prefer it to be him rather then me and my family that goes out the door in a bag.
Cheers,

Ahmed

I said 'relative to the negative uses there were next to no good uses'. I didn't say there was absolutely no good uses for a gun. And shooting someone who breaks into your house isn't exactly a good use either. It is benificial, but shooting someone is never good.

scem- your smileys are annoying in general. not just because they have guns..

http://www.my-smileys.de/jaja.gif I like them. And I hope other people do too, because I don't plan to stop using them any time soon.

also, take your ritalin.
That's probably a good idea. :D

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

Rower_CPU
Jun 13, 2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
To the first, it happened twice in my neighborhood already.
To the second. That's why i have safety locks on my guns and they are in a locked closet to which only I and my wife have the keys.
Cheers,

Ahmed

A couple of things...

What if someone unarmed breaks into your house, you pull your gun and they get it away from you and kill/injure you, your family etc.? Does it make sense to introduce a deadly weapon into a situation that would end without death/injury like that?

Also, how will you get to your closet, unlock it and remove the gun locks before it's too late?

AhmedFaisal
Jun 13, 2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by scem0
Thats like saying that the parents of the Columbine kids werent partially responsible for the shootings, when they were because they owned guns.

See, legally bought guns often end up in irresponsible hands (as I said in a previous post).


They do, legally bought cars often end up in accidents. What is your point? Columbine was a tragedy, and yes it was the parents fault, not the gun part but not realizing how ****ed up in the head their kids were. Yet how often does Columbine happen compared to how often do people get robbed & murdered? Just because its on the frontpage it doesn't mean its like THE most prominent thing that happens.
Cheers,

Ahmed

AhmedFaisal
Jun 13, 2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
A couple of things...

What if someone unarmed breaks into your house, you pull your gun and they get it away from you and kill/injure you, your family etc.? Does it make sense to introduce a deadly weapon into a situation that would end without death/injury like that?

Also, how will you get to your closet, unlock it and remove the gun locks before it's too late?

First: The guns I have require no second shot, what you see is what you get. If he don't freeze when I say so he bites the dust.
Second: The closet is in my bedroom next to my bed, last time I tried the drill it took 5 seconds to get the gun out, remove the safety lock and take aim.
Cheers,

Ahmed

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 12:58 PM
Firearms are generally not the best system for home defense. As many people have pointed out, lots of things can go horribly wrong.

Ahmed seems like an intelligent fellow and knows what he is doing i.e. how to safely handle his weapon.

However, I don't see the problem with owning guns if they are a collection-type hobby or used for target shooting. I've fired a pistol a few times and have to admit that it is fun. But, that doesn't mean I want to go kill people with a gun. Heck I think it'd be a lot more fun to do with my bare hands!


Scem0's smileys make my browser crash.

firewizard
Jun 13, 2003, 12:59 PM
but if the world had no guns then everything would be so much fairer and easier.

thats the problem
the world will always have guns.
there will always be guns.

me personally i like guns
i actually really dont care for handguns
i do have one though
always loaded and under my bed
but if you take into consideration where i live
i live 4 blocks away from the projects of a city in la called san pedro
san pedro projects are controlled by the mexican mafia drugs and gangs rule the streets
and yes people have tryed to come in to my house and it was the pistol that shoowed them away....i didnt have to shoot it but just the fact of having it pointing toward them was enough to make them leave

scem0
Jun 13, 2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by RugoseCone
Firearms are generally not the best system for home defense. As many people have pointed out, lots of things can go horribly wrong.

Ahmed seems like an intelligent fellow and knows what he is doing i.e. how to safely handle his weapon.

However, I don't see the problem with owning guns if they are a collection-type hobby or used for target shooting. I've fired a pistol a few times and have to admit that it is fun. But, that doesn't mean I want to go kill people with a gun. Heck I think it'd be a lot more fun to do with my bare hands!


Scem0's smileys make my browser crash.

I agree with everything you say.

What browser are you using?

They shouldnt make your browser crash...

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by scem0
I agree with everything you say.

What browser are you using?

They shouldnt make your browser crash...


Netscape 4.something or other. On a G4 400mhz Yikes running OS 8.6 becuase my boss is too cheap to upgrade! It doesn't help that our network blows and we don't have in-house IT.

dabirdwell
Jun 13, 2003, 01:11 PM
Still noone questioning violence as a means.

AhmedFaisal
Jun 13, 2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by firewizard
thats the problem
the world will always have guns.
there will always be guns.

me personally i like guns
i actually really dont care for handguns
i do have one though
always loaded and under my bed
but if you take into consideration where i live
i live 4 blocks away from the projects of a city in la called san pedro
san pedro projects are controlled by the mexican mafia drugs and gangs rule the streets
and yes people have tryed to come in to my house and it was the pistol that shoowed them away....i didnt have to shoot it but just the fact of having it pointing toward them was enough to make them leave

My point exactly. Not all of us have the advantage of living in gated & guarded communities. I know, I could get shot and robbed on the street too, but at least in my home I want to be able to defend myself.
Cheers,

Ahmed

Btw. I am no gun lover, if there was no need for them, I wouldn't have one, yet reality is different. I try to teach my kids that as well. I think they are smart enough to not use weapons to solve their problems and realize that guns should only be used in situations as the ones that I have guns for.

AhmedFaisal
Jun 13, 2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by dabirdwell
Still noone questioning violence as a means.

What does it help? I rather not use violence however what choice do I have in a violent environment?
Cheers,

Ahmed

Rower_CPU
Jun 13, 2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
First: The guns I have require no second shot, what you see is what you get. If he don't freeze when I say so he bites the dust.
Second: The closet is in my bedroom next to my bed, last time I tried the drill it took 5 seconds to get the gun out, remove the safety lock and take aim.
Cheers,

Ahmed

But in both instances you are depending on your ability to strike first. If that doesn't happen, you've screwed yourself.

AhmedFaisal
Jun 13, 2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
But in both instances you are depending on your ability to strike first. If that doesn't happen, you've screwed yourself.

Yep, and without guns I don't even have the first strike option so I am definitely screwed.
Cheers,

Ahmed

scem0
Jun 13, 2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
But in both instances you are depending on your ability to strike first. If that doesn't happen, you've screwed yourself.

not to mention the little kid standing next to the burglar. :rolleyes:

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

firewizard
Jun 13, 2003, 01:52 PM
another home defense item i like
especially for living in a small apartment
is a very good sword
ive never used one personally
but in such small spaces i think a swoed is a little more civilized and useful

just a thought

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by firewizard
another home defense item i like
especially for living in a small apartment
is a very good sword
ive never used one personally
but in such small spaces i think a swoed is a little more civilized and useful

just a thought



I had a friend that lived in the ghetto of Oklahoma City. He was a single military man that lived off base. Anyways he kept a live claymore mine next to his front door and the remote control for activation by his bed.

mactastic
Jun 13, 2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by RugoseCone
Heck I think it'd be a lot more fun to do with my bare hands!

Me too! Guns serve their purpose, but unfortunetely they seem to be overwhelminly pulled/used by pu**ies that carry them to feel big. I'm not directing that to anyone here, you guys seem like the responsible gun owner types, just a general observation. Besides thats why I like martial arts, no one's gonna take my hands away, and if they do i'll use my feet. Or headbutt the mofo. It takes me 0 seconds to get to my weapons, I can take them anywhere without having them confiscated, and it keeps me in shape. And if anyone pulls a gun on me, if I am within reach and have a half second or so, I'll have their own gun pointed at their head. Its not hard, we practice it all the time. I know, most of you will say you are able to shoot me before I got there, but its just a word of caution to those who would rely soley on a gun for protection.

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Yep, and without guns I don't even have the first strike option so I am definitely screwed.
Cheers,

Ahmed

so you're some sort of quick shooter that once you have a gun, cannot ever be overtaken? ok

unarmed people often successfully overtake people with guns... so just because you don't have a gun doesn't mean you have no "first strike option"...

AhmedFaisal
Jun 13, 2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by mactastic
Me too! Guns serve their purpose, but unfortunetely they seem to be overwhelminly pulled/used by pu**ies that carry them to feel big. I'm not directing that to anyone here, you guys seem like the responsible gun owner types, just a general observation. Besides thats why I like martial arts, no one's gonna take my hands away, and if they do i'll use my feet. Or headbutt the mofo. It takes me 0 seconds to get to my weapons, I can take them anywhere without having them confiscated, and it keeps me in shape. And if anyone pulls a gun on me, if I am within reach and have a half second or so, I'll have their own gun pointed at their head. Its not hard, we practice it all the time. I know, most of you will say you are able to shoot me before I got there, but its just a word of caution to those who would rely soley on a gun for protection.

I was in the military for a couple of years, I still go and keep my self defense up to par. Yet, sometimes its good to have a better range.
Cheers,

Ahmed

AhmedFaisal
Jun 13, 2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
so you're some sort of quick shooter that once you have a gun, cannot ever be overtaken? ok

unarmed people often successfully overtake people with guns... so just because you don't have a gun doesn't mean you have no "first strike option"...

Listen, you prefer not having a gun, that is fine with me. I prefer having a gun, that should be fine with you too. Why is it that people with this "world-saving" ideologies by all means want to force me to follow their beliefs? Live and let live, man!
Cheers,

Ahmed

JesseJames
Jun 13, 2003, 02:24 PM
Set up Claymore mines around your house. Remember, "Front Towards Enemy". Or dig a moat around your house and fill it with alligators.

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Listen, you prefer not having a gun, that is fine with me. I prefer having a gun, that should be fine with you too. Why is it that people with this "world-saving" ideologies by all means want to force me to follow their beliefs? Live and let live, man!
Cheers,

Ahmed

i'll take that as a "no comment"?

it's this paranoia and fear that lead people to believe they "need" a gun that is what scares me. i don't blame you for that.. i don't really know what to blame it on per se. but i just don't think that adding more weapons into the mix solves any problems.

bbarnhart
Jun 13, 2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by JesseJames
Set up Claymore mines around your house. Remember, "Front Towards Enemy". Or dig a moat around your house and fill it with alligators.

I think most states require that you kill the intruder INSIDE your home to be in self-defense.

kylos
Jun 13, 2003, 02:38 PM
"Mr. Badguy, please put that gun down. Let's work through this. I'm sure you have problems. Otherwise you wouldn't be breaking into my house. I can help you. Sit down and I'll discuss it with you. No, really, you don't have to resort to vio..."BLAM,BLAM,BLAM

So that's your world without new weapons added to the mix. The criminals will still keep their weapons and all you'll be left to oppose them with is talk and martial arts. I don't care how fast you are, you'd be shot by the time you take 3 steps.

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Kyle?
"Mr. Badguy, please put that gun down. Let's work through this. I'm sure you have problems. Otherwise you wouldn't be breaking into my house. I can help you. Sit down and I'll discuss it with you. No, really, you don't have to resort to vio..."BLAM,BLAM,BLAM

So that's your world without new weapons added to the mix. The criminals will still keep their weapons and all you'll be left to oppose them with is talk and martial arts. I don't care how fast you are, you'd be shot by the time you take 3 steps.

you're right! i now see the error in my ways. it's as simple as "i don't have a gun, i'm going to die!" whoo! time to get a couple rpg's to go with my new land mine infested yard.... die suckaz!

RugoseCone
Jun 13, 2003, 03:07 PM
RPG's? I think you'd have much more fun with a belt-fed Mk 19 40mm gernade launcher.

mangoman
Jun 13, 2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by dabirdwell
Only buy a gun if you are planning on killing something that is currently alive, that is the only purpose of firearms.

Hey, listen, you're in the wrong thread. If you're here to debate the validity of firearms ownership, start your own thread. The original question was legitimate. Let's honor that question, shall we? Otherwise, as I said, start your own thread.

Thank you,

mangoman

scem0
Jun 13, 2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Kyle?
"Mr. Badguy, please put that gun down. Let's work through this. I'm sure you have problems. Otherwise you wouldn't be breaking into my house. I can help you. Sit down and I'll discuss it with you. No, really, you don't have to resort to vio..."BLAM,BLAM,BLAM

So that's your world without new weapons added to the mix. The criminals will still keep their weapons and all you'll be left to oppose them with is talk and martial arts. I don't care how fast you are, you'd be shot by the time you take 3 steps.

But is the fact that you MIGHT be able to protect yourself IF some comes into your house worth the fact that the gun you bought legally could end up in the wrong hands and could end up doing harm?

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

Sun Baked
Jun 13, 2003, 03:15 PM
Look at some of the home burglaries lately...

They know what you have, where it's located, and when you'll be gone (or when to visit).

At least that seems to be the case with a number of organized home break-ins around here.

Some of the home invasion robberies, it seems that a lot of them have reported that they knew when people had large sums of cash, drugs, weapons, etc. and the like and exactly where it was located.

So it seems the best protection may just be to shut up and avoid blabbing to friends and/or fellow employees.

Foxer
Jun 13, 2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i wonder what % of the population of the country lives in cities at least as large as like nashville (ie, not huge cities, but major metro areas nonetheless)... i'd say most suburbians, and almost all country folk (save maybe texas) can go without locking their doors fairly comfortably.

About 75-90% of the nation lives in "urban" areas, depending on your definition. The last time the majority of the nation lived in rural/farm areas was 1860.

Based on my experience, it is the suburbanites that msot patticualrly need to lock up, since these homes are targetted for robbery more freqeuntly than others. Better pickings for burglars.

Foxer
Jun 13, 2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by scem0
Guns only serve to annoy people - not to mention commit illegal acts, kill people, get in the posession of children, pets

What about hunting and law enforcement. Those are good uses of guns.


(Sorry for the double posts. That's what I get for responding as I go down a thread!)

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Foxer
About 75-90% of the nation lives in "urban" areas, depending on your definition. The last time the majority of the nation lived in rural/farm areas was 1860.

Based on my experience, it is the suburbanites that msot patticualrly need to lock up, since these homes are targetted for robbery more freqeuntly than others. Better pickings for burglars.

i agree in theory... but i think the reasons for burglary differ, especially going from suburbs to urban settings... in cities where poverty is generally more prevalent (plenty in the suburbs too, no doubt), i think it's easy to just look for the closest, easiest target... so if you're in an apt. building and people leave their doors unlocked... fairly easy targets.

same goes for suburbs, and i think that in the suburbs sometimes (sadly), boredom is part of the reason for it. of course that would be an interesting study of pscyhological reasons behind crime and such..

i'm not sure what my point is. hah. anyways, i agree that suburbs aren't necessarily safer, but surely you'd agree that there's definitely that perception by most people, and therefore moer people do leave their doors unlocked, if not necessarily for good reason.

kylos
Jun 13, 2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by scem0
But is the fact that you might be able to protect yourself if some comes into your house worth the fact that the gun you bought legally COULD end up in the wrong hands and COULD end up doing harm?

**emphasis edited**

Actually, with proper safety training and break-in scenario planning/drills I'm pretty sure you could make the chance of an accident or other problem almost nil. Any self-respecting crook will run if you hold a gun on them. And if you get a shotgun, chambering a round is all a crook needs to hear. So you may not even need to shoot.

Someone suggested calling 911. That's a great idea if you can do it without getting shot. I just don't see it working because you'll be found to quickly by the crooks.

Really, it would be nice not to have to worry about such things but we live in a rotten world and defending yourself is sometimes just necessary.

pseudobrit
Jun 13, 2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Kyle?
"Mr. Badguy, please put that gun down. Let's work through this. I'm sure you have problems. Otherwise you wouldn't be breaking into my house. I can help you. Sit down and I'll discuss it with you. No, really, you don't have to resort to vio..."BLAM,BLAM,BLAM

So that's your world without new weapons added to the mix. The criminals will still keep their weapons and all you'll be left to oppose them with is talk and martial arts. I don't care how fast you are, you'd be shot by the time you take 3 steps.

Yeah. Because if I were going to rob your house, I'd do it in the middle of the night and I'd make sure everyone was at home, and I'd bring a gun...

Think like a criminal here... :rolleyes:

If I'm going to rob your house, I'll do it when I know you're not home and I'll steal your guns to sell on the street. Then when a hardcore criminal wants to break into your house and doesn't care if you're home or not, he's got your old gun to kill you with! :rolleyes:

Use a little common sense and logic and handguns make less and less sense for home defense.

pseudobrit
Jun 13, 2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Foxer
Based on my experience, it is the suburbanites that msot patticualrly need to lock up, since these homes are targetted for robbery more freqeuntly than others. Better pickings for burglars.

Especially the loaded hanguns in the bedside drawers.

mactastic
Jun 13, 2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Kyle?
"Mr. Badguy, please put that gun down. Let's work through this. I'm sure you have problems. Otherwise you wouldn't be breaking into my house. I can help you. Sit down and I'll discuss it with you. No, really, you don't have to resort to vio..."BLAM,BLAM,BLAM

So that's your world without new weapons added to the mix. The criminals will still keep their weapons and all you'll be left to oppose them with is talk and martial arts. I don't care how fast you are, you'd be shot by the time you take 3 steps.

Or before I even got to my gun if you got the drop on me.

I'm not saying don't own a gun, I'm just saying beware of the limitations. Unless you sleep with it in your hand, anyone who walks in and has a gun pointed at you and wants to kill you will be able to. No matter what kind of weaponry you got. I'm talking about situations where you can't get to your gun (say when you are out and about) or when you wake up and the dude is already standing over you and has you covered. Nothing you can do then, thats just the way things are. I could get hit by a bus tomorrow too.

2jaded2care
Jun 13, 2003, 04:18 PM
Glock is lightweight enough to carry everyday, but you should go to a range and rent different pieces to see what you like. I have a nice Sig 226, but today I'd get something in .40 or .45. I keep my Sig in a Mini-Vault (I have a kid), but I'd probably get a Kimber, for the 1911 safety system. Not as easy to field-strip as the Sig, though...

mactastic
Jun 13, 2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
I was in the military for a couple of years, I still go and keep my self defense up to par. Yet, sometimes its good to have a better range.
Cheers,

Ahmed

Sweet! I love going in to the studio and sparring with people too. And yes, sometimes range is important. Guns have a place in the realm of self defense, but they are not the only tool I keep in that particular toolbox.

scem0
Jun 13, 2003, 05:07 PM
hunting isn't good in my opinion. Its fun, I'm sure. But so is doing drugs, but is it 'good'?

Law enforcement is something else.

Here is what I think:


In a perfect world there would be no guns, and law enfocement would be 'evenly matched' against criminals.
since that isn't plausible as of now, I would like guns to be strictly regulated.

law enforcement officers can have guns, civilians can't.
guns are not sold anywhere.

Chris Rock (I think) recommended that each bullet cost $5,000 each, and then people would really have to think about who they plan on shooting ;).

I actually think this is a great idea.
Hunters could use bow and arrows or something :rolleyes:. That is already a popular hunting fad, is it not?



I'm all out of ideas. I don't think that it is plausible that guns will be phased out any time soon, if any time at all. But in a perfect world (in my opinion), there would be no guns, and free computers for all people named Emerson McAfee.

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

jelloshotsrule
Jun 13, 2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by scem0
hunting isn't good in my opinion. Its fun, I'm sure. But so is doing drugs, but is it 'good'?

Law enforcement is something else.

Here is what I think:


In a perfect world there would be no guns, and law enfocement would be 'evenly matched' against criminals.
since that isn't plausible as of now, I would like guns to be strictly regulated.

law enforcement officers can have guns, civilians can't.
guns are not sold anywhere.

Chris Rock (I think) recommended that each bullet cost $5,000 each, and then people would really have to think about who they plan on shooting ;).

I actually think this is a great idea.
Hunters could use bow and arrows or something :rolleyes:. That is already a popular hunting fad, is it not?



I'm all out of ideas. I don't think that it is plausible that guns will be phased out any time soon, if any time at all. But in a perfect world (in my opinion), there would be no guns, and free computers for all people named Emerson McAfee.

[.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png[/img]

i personally think that hunting as a sport is somewhat of a joke. hunting as a means for getting food, sure. that said, i don't think that's the problem (ie, hunting).

as for your idea.... no, i don't think cops should be even with criminals really. what they are allowed to do is use one level of force above what the criminal (this is assuming the person being dealt with IS a criminal, a separate issue entirely) is using. so, nightstick if the person is just using their hands, a gun if the person has a knife... of course, there's no real one level above a gun (at least, in handheld form), so gun is pretty much the peak.

i agree that a perfect world would have no handguns, but in a real world, there are uses for them.

however, why handguns and automatic weapons are as readily available (legally or illegally) is beyond me... the justified use for an automatic weapon is nonexistent

mkubal
Jun 13, 2003, 06:11 PM
Wow this is getting out of hand. I thought the original idea was suggestions on what should be bought not a arguement about gun control.

If you as a person don't feel as though it is safe or that you would be able to use a handgun to protect yourself or that there are better ways of going about it then that's fine. If someone does feel that they can protect themselves with a gun and it gives them peace of mind (not everyone has children) then let them do that. It should be an individual's own decision not yours.

On the issue of what gun to get might i suggest an AR-15 or M-16. :D

Just kidding. Go to a gun shop and discuss your situation with them. They should be able to suggest a number of guns.

Matt

scem0
Jun 13, 2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by mkubal
Wow this is getting out of hand. I thought the original idea was suggestions on what should be bought not a arguement about gun control.

If you as a person don't feel as though it is safe or that you would be able to use a handgun to protect yourself or that there are better ways of going about it then that's fine. If someone does feel that they can protect themselves with a gun and it gives them peace of mind (not everyone has children) then let them do that. It should be an individual's own decision not yours.

On the issue of what gun to get might i suggest an AR-15 or M-16. :D

Just kidding. Go to a gun shop and discuss your situation with them. They should be able to suggest a number of guns.

Matt

I don't think this is a matter of whether or not he should get the gun or not. Our arguments could sway his opinion, but it is more of a matter of just people discussing thier opinions.

I know I am not trying to sway his opinion, I am just saying what I feel.

But if he decides to get a gun, he should keep it well away from EVERYONE else. It just seems like too much could go wrong. ie child shooting themself, etc.

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

mkubal
Jun 13, 2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by scem0
I don't think this is a matter of whether or not he should get the gun or not. Our arguments could sway his opinion, but it is more of a matter of just people discussing thier opinions.

I know I am not trying to sway his opinion, I am just saying what I feel.

But if he decides to get a gun, he should keep it well away from EVERYONE else. It just seems like too much could go wrong. ie child shooting themself, etc.

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

Like i said, not everyone has a child. I respect your opinion, but I think that most of these posts should have gone in a different thread, probably under political discussions. But it's not my thread so no big deal I guess.

Matt

vniow
Jun 13, 2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by mangoman
Hey, listen, you're in the wrong thread. If you're here to debate the validity of firearms ownership, start your own thread. The original question was legitimate. Let's honor that question, shall we? Otherwise, as I said, start your own thread.

A thread like this was never destined to stay on topic...

iJon
Jun 13, 2003, 09:43 PM
i think hunting is a great sport.i hunt elk and its good fun. now i do not agree with hunting and just leaving it to rot. every elk i kill i keep the meat and eat it over time. you also get some cool skins and horns when you hunt. i have 2 bear, a wolf and cougar skins in my room.

iJon

kylos
Jun 13, 2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Yeah. Because if I were going to rob your house, I'd do it in the middle of the night and I'd make sure everyone was at home, and I'd bring a gun...

Think like a criminal here... :rolleyes:

If I'm going to rob your house, I'll do it when I know you're not home and I'll steal your guns to sell on the street. Then when a hardcore criminal wants to break into your house and doesn't care if you're home or not, he's got your old gun to kill you with! :rolleyes:

Use a little common sense and logic and handguns make less and less sense for home defense.

Notice I never mentioned robbery. Breakin's occur for other reasons as well. And not all crooks are that bright anyhow.

Or before I even got to my gun if you got the drop on me.

I'm not saying don't own a gun, I'm just saying beware of the limitations. Unless you sleep with it in your hand, anyone who walks in and has a gun pointed at you and wants to kill you will be able to. No matter what kind of weaponry you got. I'm talking about situations where you can't get to your gun (say when you are out and about) or when you wake up and the dude is already standing over you and has you covered. Nothing you can do then, thats just the way things are. I could get hit by a bus tomorrow too.

To both of you, I'm not saying guns are foolproof methods of stopping perps. I am saying that they are much more likely to save your life than any other method. The most important thing is to know how you'll respond in such a situation. Mr. Faisel is a great example of that.

I'm simply trying to point out that while you may not like any sort of firearms, there are people who know how to use them and have opted to do for good reason. It's not your concern and you should respect their decisions instead of haranguing them about their decisions. Don't force your morality on them.

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 13, 2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by scem0
I second this. Guns != skill. Guns == sudden death or injury.

If I was to fight someone, I would rather both of us no have guns, then both of us have guns. Then the fight would be fair. I would have a chance to run away, or to kick some ass, depending on http://www.my-smileys.de/blossom.gif or http://www.my-smileys.de/alienlunch.gif ;).

A fair contest to me is not a contest of who can have the best gun or who can pull the trigger the fastest.

I realize that defending yourself isn't a mere contest, but if the world had no guns then everything would be so much fairer and easier.

:o...

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

But what happens when you show up to the "contest" without a gun.. but the other guy does have a gun... ?

OOPS!

Ugg
Jun 13, 2003, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by iJon
i think hunting is a great sport.i hunt elk and its good fun. now i do not agree with hunting and just leaving it to rot. every elk i kill i keep the meat and eat it over time. you also get some cool skins and horns when you hunt. i have 2 bear, a wolf and cougar skins in my room.

iJon

So, what do you do with the meat from the bear, wolf and cougar? Bear can be ok if they've been feeding on salmon and berries but wolf and cougar don't sound that tasty. Hunting for food is fine, hunting for the sake of killing is not.

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 13, 2003, 11:55 PM
ok guys.. this is getting way off.. I guess it was a bad place to ask for suggestions.. (about which gun to get.. no whether or not to get a gun) lol

no offense to the majority of you here, but please, start your own thread about gun control or let me know, and I'll start another one for you... other than than.. if you DO have more suggestions of which gun to get.. please post em!

iJon
Jun 13, 2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Ugg
So, what do you do with the meat from the bear, wolf and cougar? Bear can be ok if they've been feeding on salmon and berries but wolf and cougar don't sound that tasty. Hunting for food is fine, hunting for the sake of killing is not.
good, im glad you agree with me, go tell that to the cops who shot my wolf. anyways the bear and cougar were given to me by my grandpa.

iJon

mangoman
Jun 13, 2003, 11:58 PM
*sigh*. To say that this thread has drifted off topic would be the understatement of the year. Poor guy asks a decent question, and then he gets hit with a boatload of opinion, foolish and otherwise.

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 14, 2003, 12:05 AM
I think I said I'd keep it in the house, but trust me, it's not just for home defense. I've had a fascination with guns, and I am 21, so I am able to go buy one with my own money. I bought my own home, and I do wish to protect it, but a gun alone isn't what I had in mind.. that's just asking for trouble.. I have a monitored alarm etc...

anyway, I will probably end up getting a shotgun too, but for now I'm interested in handguns. I want to take it to the range, shoot some targets and get used to the feel. As far as which handgun to get? I definately think I'm going with a .40. If I did have to use it, I'd definately want to knock em down, not just put a hole in them like with a 9mm.

I like the look of the Ruger better than an all black Glock. I know look means nothing to function, but just preference...

It's a KP944 Manual Safety .40 Stainless

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/images/Products/8081H.gif

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 14, 2003, 12:08 AM
iJon, I hunt to.. mostly deer. I haven't gotten my own rifle yet, I'v always used my Dad's .303


OH.. and yes, I always eat (or sell) the meat

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 14, 2003, 12:09 AM
almost forgot ... lol

I killed a jack-rabbit once too, with a shotgun. :)

Funny tasting creature... :)

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 14, 2003, 12:18 AM
another thing about the GLock... no external safety.. I know this is good for some, but I do want an external (manual) safety, which is why I am looking into the Manual Safety variety of Rugers.

iJon
Jun 14, 2003, 12:20 AM
my friends grandpa just recieved two lightweight smith and wessons with lasers. they said a man like you needs protection, probably because he is a multi billionaire.

iJon

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 14, 2003, 12:22 AM
sweet! - I hope your "in good" with him!

iJon
Jun 14, 2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Porshuh944turbo
sweet! - I hope your "in good" with him!
haha, yeah i am, his grandpa is awesome. i would love to have his kind of money.

iJon

mymemory
Jun 14, 2003, 12:26 AM
My dada used to ahve a hand granade in his closet, he had it for a few years until we moved and then it got lost.

I can not have a gun around my house, I would use it too oftem, specially when driving or with the political situation I would have on me more than one National Guard, in december they came to trow tear gas a few blocks from my house, all I had was my arc and a few good arrows (to kill deers), I hit one of the guards until the tear gas didn't let me shoot any more.

scem0
Jun 14, 2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by mymemory
My dada used to ahve a hand granade in his closet, he had it for a few years until we moved and then it got lost.


that seems..... dangerous.

"I wonder whats under here....."

BOOM!

"oh."

How do you lose a grenade?

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/77430bbce83afc89881430e177cabb9b.png

pseudobrit
Jun 14, 2003, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by mkubal
Like i said, not everyone has a child.

Anyone else see the irony in getting rid of the guns when you have kids -- the most valuable thing you could ever need to protect in your home?

jefhatfield
Jun 14, 2003, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Anyone else see the irony in getting rid of the guns when you have kids -- the most valuable thing you could ever need to protect in your home?

kids get into everything...my younger brother's friend accidentaly shot himself with his father's gun...he was a cop

when i was growing up, i had a fascination with playing army and had lots of toy guns....though i didn't have access to a gun, i loved misusing my friends bb gun when i used to go play with him

instead of straight target practice, we tried to hit objects not knowing really what was behind them if we missed, and we tried to hit small animals but luckily did not hit anything...and of course we ran around with the thing loaded...thank god i didn't grow up having access to a real gun, plus growing up in an upper middle class suburb/rural area, i don't really think most needed it

ear2ear
Jun 14, 2003, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by 2jaded2care
Glock is lightweight enough to carry everyday,

:eek:

I'm sorry to interrupt the discussion but that statement is freakin' crazy!

Stelliform
Jun 14, 2003, 08:39 AM
.....

pseudobrit
Jun 14, 2003, 11:27 AM
Pennsylvania's had a concealed weapon law for a long time. You pay about $35 to the sheriff, they take your photo and you can carry a loaded handgun concealed on your person.

Before the CC law, you didn't even need a permit. :eek:

MacAztec
Jun 14, 2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
so you're some sort of quick shooter that once you have a gun, cannot ever be overtaken? ok

unarmed people often successfully overtake people with guns... so just because you don't have a gun doesn't mean you have no "first strike option"...

What are you saying? Theres a burglar in your house, he has a gun, and you are going to run up and beat him down while he has a gun? Oh yea, thats smart.

Like saying the police can use their hands to get the gun away from a guy holding people hostage. What, are they going to run in there and grab him? Or will they shoot him in the leg or something.

And guns dont kill people, in order to kill the person, you have to pull the trigger.

You drive your car for YOUR benefit, its YOUR CHOICE to pollute the air. We make the choice to nuke places, they dont just go off.

jelloshotsrule
Jun 14, 2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by MacAztec
What are you saying? Theres a burglar in your house, he has a gun, and you are going to run up and beat him down while he has a gun? Oh yea, thats smart.

Like saying the police can use their hands to get the gun away from a guy holding people hostage. What, are they going to run in there and grab him? Or will they shoot him in the leg or something.

And guns dont kill people, in order to kill the person, you have to pull the trigger.

You drive your car for YOUR benefit, its YOUR CHOICE to pollute the air. We make the choice to nuke places, they dont just go off.

yes. it's all that simple... whooo!

since you quoted me, why don't you read what i said? i was saying that just because you have a gun, doesn't make you infallible if you are faced with an assailant. i wasn't talking about someone getting robbed and attacking their armed robber without a weapon... nice assumption though.

in actuality, i'd recommend to an unarmed person being robbed, to do as the robber says, trying to remember what they look like, what they are wearing, and all that so that the police can do their job better. if you get a chance when the robber is distracted or something, and you can make a move, then fine. but you are less likely to be hurt if you just do as they say...

again, if you took the time to read before talking like an arse, you'd see that i had posted earlier about how i DO think that police should be armed.


as for your last point... wow, brilliant. now, explain to me a good use of an automatic weapon by non military personnel. because i know those guns can kill people at a high rate of speed, which is the PERSON'S CHOICE TO MAKE.

as for polluting and nuking... sorry, but your rights to use these things go out the window when it affects the world in general, and those around you in such a harmful way. or should we get rid of car exhaust restrictions and such too?


ps. caps aren't actually any easier to read.


edit: pseudo put it more elegantly

pseudobrit
Jun 14, 2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by MacAztec
What are you saying? Theres a burglar in your house, he has a gun, and you are going to run up and beat him down while he has a gun? Oh yea, thats smart.

Like saying the police can use their hands to get the gun away from a guy holding people hostage. What, are they going to run in there and grab him? Or will they shoot him in the leg or something.

A car's primary and useful purpose is not to kill people. A handgun's is.

As far as disarming someone with a gun -- it's easier than you'd think from a non-standoff distance, and from a standoff distance a moving target is harder to hit with a sidearm.

And remember, a burglar isn't going to know your house like you do. You have a good advantage of surprise if you know where to hide.

And guns dont kill people, in order to kill the person, you have to pull the trigger.

You drive your car for YOUR benefit, its YOUR CHOICE to pollute the air. We make the choice to nuke places, they dont just go off.

So if I want to own a nuclear weapon, I can? According to your logic, the nuke wouldn't decimate a city, the nuke user would. That would be HIS CHOICE to level the city, and he would have to be held responsible. See the flaw in the logic?

pseudobrit
Jun 14, 2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
in actuality, i'd recommend to an unarmed person being robbed, to do as the robber says, trying to remember what they look like, what they are wearing, and all that so that the police can do their job better. if you get a chance when the robber is distracted or something, and you can make a move, then fine. but you are less likely to be hurt if you just do as they say...

Unarmed homeowner gets robbed by an armed invader and is awoken when invader breaches bedroom door... does as masked invader says, lives. Invader doesn't want to make things 100x worse by doing murder.

Armed homeowner gets robbed by same invader. Startled by door being opened, realises he's being robbed and reaches [under pillow/ beside table/ runs to closet] for his gun. Invader sees homeowner attempting to arm himself and shoots homeowner dead.

Introducing a deadly weapon to a situation is bad.

Introducing two is kinetic.

jelloshotsrule
Jun 14, 2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Unarmed homeowner gets robbed by an armed invader and is awoken when invader breaches bedroom door... does as masked invader says, lives. Invader doesn't want to make things 100x worse by doing murder.

Armed homeowner gets robbed by same invader. Startled by door being opened, realises he's being robbed and reaches [under pillow/ beside table/ runs to closet] for his gun. Invader sees homeowner attempting to arm himself and shoots homeowner dead.

Introducing a deadly weapon to a situation is bad.

Introducing two is kinetic.

you're such a PANSY if you let them tell you what to do!!!!

ColoJohnBoy
Jun 14, 2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by G4scott
You don't realize that in Texas, the people who break into your house are more likely to have a gun... If the guy's qualified to own a handgun, and doesn't have any intent to harm innocent people, then let him get it... I'll bet you drive a car. Your car can be just as dangerous as a gun. So why don't we ban cars, because they kill people?


You come from Texas, I come from Colorado. Similar states as far as gun laws go, but, I have a slightly different background. I was a student at Columbine High School.

By no means do I advocate an outright ban on all firarms, but I fervently support any legislation that adds an extra degree of difficulty in obtaining a deadly weapon.

I think it is significant that while in the United States there are on average 10,000 gun homicides a year, In other countries with somewhat more restrictive laws, yet large populations, the difference disproportionally large. Consider that Japan has approximately half the population of the United States. In 1996, only two gun homicides ocurred there. In the United States in that same year, 9,963 ocurred. That only is proof enough that our gun laws are significantly weak. And using the Second Amendment is ridiculous. It has been more than 200 years since that amendment was written. Different times, different necessities.

2jaded2care
Jun 16, 2003, 04:37 PM
I still say the Glock is lightweight enough to carry everyday. It's very reliable and sturdy. However, nothing against the Glock (made here in GA!), but I prefer the (metal-frame) Sig. Glocks are DAO and have no external safety. I tried the .40 Glock, initial reaction was the recoil was uncomfortable for me. Maybe I'd have gotten used to it. Probably the polymer-frame Sigs are the same.

The Sig is Double Action/Single Action. Has a decocker but no external safety to even have to think about, which is fine when you have no kids to worry about. Is heavier (to carry), but this helps tame recoil I think. Takes down easily. Still, I'm looking at a Kimber for the 1911 safety system (since I have a kid). The 1911 safety seems more ergonomic to me than others with "flip-up" levers (Beretta 92/96, Rugers I think). 1911s do not field-strip as easily as Sigs or Berettas, however.

When I think Apple users, I usually think more along the lines of a Sig or HK, finely engineered tools. The Glock is fine, just not to my taste. Rugers seem more mainstream, like GM or Ford, which isn't bad company to be in necessarily.

The Berettas are smooth and accurate, but don't seem as durable -- I have a 92 which has loosened up a bit more than I like.

Don't know much about scatterguns, been told they're good for home defense because they don't penetrate walls as much. I'd think their length might be a disadvantage in close quarters.

Consider Crimson Trace laser grips. One store clerk told me to save my money and just learn to shoot straight instead. I see his point, but I gotta think there's a strong deterrent effect with that red dot... Plus, these don't alter the gun's form factor for holsters, etc.

Be sure you get lessons in safe gun handling if you haven't already. Be sure you are mature enough to have a gun -- flashing it around will get you dead. If you have a kid, get a small, quick-access safe to keep your protection in. That said, responsible people who can't afford bodyguards should be allowed to take responsibility for their own safety. The police cannot guarantee your personal safety, they just respond after the fact.

Others can call us crazy, but they probably never had to work where they could routinely hear gunfire at night from the projects up the hill...

synergy
Jun 16, 2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Unarmed homeowner gets robbed by an armed invader and is awoken when invader breaches bedroom door... does as masked invader says, lives. Invader doesn't want to make things 100x worse by doing murder.

Armed homeowner gets robbed by same invader. Startled by door being opened, realises he's being robbed and reaches [under pillow/ beside table/ runs to closet] for his gun. Invader sees homeowner attempting to arm himself and shoots homeowner dead.

Introducing a deadly weapon to a situation is bad.

Introducing two is kinetic.


A deadly weapon was already introduced into the situation.

Besides that how do you know what and intruder wants to do? He already commited one act, murder is not much extra effort especially if he/she is in a thrid strike you are out state.

I am not saying guns are some perfect tool to defend yourself. But on the opposite you can't claim having one and that is it you are going to get shot.
Wait until the next riot starts up and you are in the middle of it.
It is going to happen if terrorists have any say about it. If you know anyone who works for their government ask them about the new shelter in place rules they are working on. Figure out why the government wants to have these policies or rules.

synergy
Jun 16, 2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
You come from Texas, I come from Colorado. Similar states as far as gun laws go, but, I have a slightly different background. I was a student at Columbine High School.

By no means do I advocate an outright ban on all firarms, but I fervently support any legislation that adds an extra degree of difficulty in obtaining a deadly weapon.

I think it is significant that while in the United States there are on average 10,000 gun homicides a year, In other countries with somewhat more restrictive laws, yet large populations, the difference disproportionally large. Consider that Japan has approximately half the population of the United States. In 1996, only two gun homicides ocurred there. In the United States in that same year, 9,963 ocurred. That only is proof enough that our gun laws are significantly weak. And using the Second Amendment is ridiculous. It has been more than 200 years since that amendment was written. Different times, different necessities.

It would only be siginificant if Japan had the same ratio of guns to population as the USA has. It does not. Compare to Canada or Switzerland where they also have a lot of guns and the story is similar to what you say.
More guns less crime. I'd say it is more about our culture in addition to the access to guns.

As for necessities, they are still the same for people who live 50 or more miles away from the nearest police station.

Durandal7
Jun 16, 2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i live in nyc, and i don't feel unsafe. so, you can cross that one off.. unless maybe you meant the albany or syracuse areas? or the hamptons maybe? ;)

Hehe, maybe he meant Utica, NY. :p

When it comes to self defense I am more of a blade man myself. Give me a good Bowie knife and I can handle myself. Besides, any intruder in my home will have to deal with the 4' claymore I keep near my bed.

Having said that, get a Glock.

mischief
Jun 16, 2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Durandal7
Hehe, maybe he meant Utica, NY. :p

When it comes to self defense I am more of a blade man myself. Give me a good Bowie knife and I can handle myself. Besides, any intruder in my home will have to deal with the 4' claymore I keep near my bed.

Having said that, get a Glock.

2 things:

The gun arguement for home-protection is moot if you own a dog.

Claymores are 6 feet long.

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 16, 2003, 11:37 PM
I went and looked at the Ruger and the GLock at academy and wasn't impressed with the feel of the gun.. a bit too light for what I'm looking for.. then I picked up the Berretta and was very impressed... the balance was completely different than the other two and it had a very nice weight to it. Price was a bit more weighty too though.. :)

I'm still looking, just trying some on for size... hopefully I'll get to rent some at a range and fire a few different ones... we'll see..

LethalWolfe
Jun 16, 2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
You come from Texas, I come from Colorado. Similar states as far as gun laws go, but, I have a slightly different background. I was a student at Columbine High School.

By no means do I advocate an outright ban on all firarms, but I fervently support any legislation that adds an extra degree of difficulty in obtaining a deadly weapon.

I think it is significant that while in the United States there are on average 10,000 gun homicides a year, In other countries with somewhat more restrictive laws, yet large populations, the difference disproportionally large. Consider that Japan has approximately half the population of the United States. In 1996, only two gun homicides ocurred there. In the United States in that same year, 9,963 ocurred. That only is proof enough that our gun laws are significantly weak. And using the Second Amendment is ridiculous. It has been more than 200 years since that amendment was written. Different times, different necessities.

Not to sound like a dick but the kids who shot up Columbine broke like what, 19 or so, different laws. How is adding more laws to the books going to deter those who willing ignore the ones currently there? Criminals obviously don't car about breaking the law so adding more regulations will do little-to-nothing to "disarm" them. All it will do is make it harder for law abiding citizens to legally obtain a firearm. And something like 90% of guns used criminally are obtained illegally so, again, restricting the ability of law abiding citizens to legally own a firearm will do little to reduce the number of gun related crimes.

You cite Japan and I'll cite the Swiss. Guns do not cause violence or criminal behavior.


Lethal

iJon
Jun 17, 2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
Not to sound like a dick but the kids who shot up Columbine broke like what, 19 or so, different laws. How is adding more laws to the books going to deter those who willing ignore the ones currently there? Criminals obviously don't car about breaking the law so adding more regulations will do little-to-nothing to "disarm" them. All it will do is make it harder for law abiding citizens to legally obtain a firearm. And something like 90% of guns used criminally are obtained illegally so, again, restricting the ability of law abiding citizens to legally own a firearm will do little to reduce the number of gun related crimes.

You cite Japan and I'll cite the Swiss. Guns do not cause violence or criminal behavior.


Lethal
plus those kids had bad parents, or else they wouldnt have gone crazy and shot people.

iJon

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 17, 2003, 05:26 AM
so all you people (getting off track myself now.. grr....)all you people despise those who have guns to shoot as a hobby? or perhaps just collect guns?

What about olympians who compete in marksmanship.. are you afraid some crazed fan is gonna run up, steal a gun and shoot other fans with it???? Come on... guns are tools.. they are also collector pieces.. and they are hobbies... let it go...

by the way... i'm originally from Seattle Washington... so I only live in texas...

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 17, 2003, 05:28 AM
same thing for any other weapon for that matter.. you can't say what has been said hear against guns and own a knife yourself.. or bow & arrow, or sword, or whatever is lethal and not currently allowed on our airplanes.. :) but if you do own these things and are against guns... do you see a problem with this? cause really... what's the pont of owning one? since they are "made for killing things that are currently alive" as someone here put it... lol

Wardofsky
Jun 17, 2003, 06:39 AM
It's amazing how a topic such as this can evolve to much more.
If any one wants to bring it back you are more than welcome.

Well...

Not that welcome.

Foxer
Jun 17, 2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
in actuality, i'd recommend to an unarmed person being robbed, to do as the robber says, trying to remember what they look like, what they are wearing, and all that so that the police can do their job better. if you get a chance when the robber is distracted or something, and you can make a move, then fine. but you are less likely to be hurt if you just do as they say...


Yes. It's always best to tell someone to "lie back and enjoy it."

Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
And using the Second Amendment is ridiculous. It has been more than 200 years since that amendment was written. Different times, different necessities.

The rest of the Bill of Rights is also 210 years old. Let's just trash the whole thing.

My attitude is this.. the Second Amendment - in word and intention - is pretty clear. Guns can be regulated, so long as such regulation doesn't have the effect of prohibiting their possession. HOWEVER, if you don't like the Second Amendment, change it. The Constitution provides for its own amendment. Just don't tell me that you can ignore the parts you don't like.

jefhatfield
Jun 17, 2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Wardofsky
It's amazing how a topic such as this can evolve to much more.
If any one wants to bring it back you are more than welcome.

Well...

Not that welcome.

ok, to get back on topic...

the traditional aluminium pt has a tendency to wear out and not hold up to velocity in its delivery

but stainless pt, while strong enough for numerous deliveries, is too heavy and can affect range and distance

my vote is for the titanium pt's...light, yet durable

jelloshotsrule
Jun 17, 2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Foxer
Yes. It's always best to tell someone to "lie back and enjoy it."


yes. it's always best to "quote someone as saying something they didn't say"

Foxer
Jun 17, 2003, 10:17 AM
It is, substantially, what you advised.

jelloshotsrule
Jun 17, 2003, 10:24 AM
yes, i said "enjoy" being robbed... amazing ability to read my mind.

2jaded2care
Jun 17, 2003, 12:04 PM
The Berettas are ultra-smooth and accurate. My only gripe, at least on my 92, is there's a thin metal plate (you can see it when you remove the slide) which is only pinned in. After you put lots of rounds through, that plate loosens up. The local shop guys said that happens with all their rental guns, doesn't seem to affect performance, especially since it rides in a slot in the slide. They did mention that getting Beretta to repair this is about as expensive as getting a new gun. :(

The Sig doesn't seem to have a thin part like this inside, it's much beefier. I don't know about Glock, I don't have one, but a local shop guy likes to throw their (unloaded) rental Glocks onto a rubber mat on the floor, and say it doesn't hurt that gun, you're welcome to throw your (fill in the blank) on the mat and say the same thing... made an impression on me, anyway.

On a side note, get your toys before you get hitched. It's hard to buy any more afterward. (They want you to actually justify that expense! As if paying the power bill is more important...)

You're right, you definitely want a .40 or .45. Law enforcement wants more stopping power, you should too. Definitely test things out before buying, and get what's best for you.

Be safe and good luck!

jefhatfield
Jun 17, 2003, 12:05 PM
but what about the pt's?

Rower_CPU
Jun 17, 2003, 12:21 PM
So, Foxer, is it worth risking your life and/or someone else's for the contents of your wallet?

Foxer
Jun 17, 2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
So, Foxer, is it worth risking your life and/or someone else's for the contents of your wallet?

You don't know what I've got in my wallet...;)

Who's the someone else? The burglar? Yeah, I'd risk his life. If we're talking about my home - in which are my wife, children, Macs and everything else that is of value to me - I certainly would risk my life to protect that.

jelloshotsrule
Jun 17, 2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Foxer
You don't know what I've got in my wallet...;)

Who's the someone else? The burglar? Yeah, I'd risk his life. If we're talking about my home - in which are my wife, children, Macs and everything else that is of value to me - I certainly would risk my life to protect that.

so you hear the noise, or see the burglar, or whatever. you reach for your gun which is safely locked up i'm sure. the burglar panics at the sight of you making a move and shoots you... that will do good to protect your family and valuables i'd say.

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 17, 2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by jefhatfield
but what about the pt's?

what are you talking about , PT? is this a model of a Sig or something? please detail...

jefhatfield
Jun 18, 2003, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by Porshuh944turbo
what are you talking about , PT? is this a model of a Sig or something? please detail...

i thought you would never ask

pt = pie tin, naturally

cf - mischief's famous pie throwing threads on macrumors;)

Porshuh944turbo
Jun 18, 2003, 02:09 AM
nice

2jaded2care
Jun 20, 2003, 05:03 PM
Actually, Taurus has the PT 92, a 9mm Beretta knock-off. The .40 cal version is the PT 100. <www.Taurususa.com>. I haven't heard anything bad about this company, but I don't have much experience with them either... I don't think the PT stands for "pie tin" in this instance...

Take a look at the HKs while you're shopping... pricey but ultra-reliable, and ssssmooth...

Let us know what you eventually decide!