Apple Discounts Cinema Displays

[dante@sisna.com]

I'd really like to get an Apple display but these models are just so old and overpriced. The fact that the Apple 30" dropped by $200 still doesn't change the fact that you can get the new Dell High Color 30" on eBay for $1250 with no tax. I'm not sure who here would say that the over 2 year old Apple monitor is a better display than that one, regardless of the fact that it can be had for a huge amount less. If there is no new Apple display in June that outperforms the new Dell and HP, I'll have no choice but to go with the Dell. Honestly, who wouldn't? The only reason I want the Apple at this point is looks.

I'll Say It: For the very high end Print Production Work I do, where color match to offset printed output and proofer output is critical, the 2-Year Old Apple Display is a better monitor that the $1250 Dell High Color Display: I would not use that Dell in my studio.

Maybe for video, games or Apple TV, but not for my Studio-Critical work.

[dante@sisna.com]

The new Dell has better color than the 2 year old Apple, plain and simple. It might need some calibration to make it more accurate, but it's still a better display bar none. To suggest otherwise is simple misdirection. The Apple displays are far too overpriced for the yesterdays tech that they are. Whoever pays the $1799 plus tax for one when they can get the Dell for 1250 with no tax either really wants a matching monitor, or does not understand that the Apple is too old to command that price. The old Apple does not offer better color than the new Dell, (in fact it offers worse color) yet Apple still charges more for it. In fact, I might even go so far as to say that if the Dell were a sexier looking monitor than the Apple, no one here would consider it for a second over the Dell.

Sorry, but my 18-years of advanced color matching work and my knowledge of the Wide Gamut Monitors you speak of, and your comments lead me to say this: You really don't know what your talking about when it comes to Color Accuracy, SWOP Color Match and Colorsync System integration as suited for design studios.

You need to "repeat and return:" most of the basic info you need is in this thread if you are willing to take the time to read it. After that starting point, goto Google and begin your education process -- you've got anywhere from 20 to 60 hours work to get up to speed on this topic if you really want your posts to sound knowledgeable.

No personal offense meant: Just Color Match Facts.

[YoYoMa]

I don't see a good reason why that would be. The Dell has a better picture, which I would imagine is also important for the kind of work you do. If it's true that it needs to be calibrated to get the accuracy that the Apple supposedly provides, then get it calibrated. This is koolaid at its worst. Show me one professional link where it is suggested that photo work requires only the Apple to get things done right.

[stealthman1]

Are you serious? Have you even checked out the specs of the new Dell and compared them? Are you aware of the larger color gamut that it has? Do you know anything more than what you learned from drinking the Apple kool-aid? The Apple monitor came out 2 YEARS ago. Beleive it or not, there have been advances in LCD technology since then.

Arggh! There are numerous Mitsubishis that have better specs than my SLK55 AMG, but none of them are actually better!:D If I saw a Dell monitor better than my ACD, I'd buy it, but I haven't seen it yet.

[dante@sisna.com]

Are you serious? Have you even checked out the specs of the new Dell and compared them? Are you aware of the larger color gamut that it has? Do you know anything more than what you learned from drinking the Apple kool-aid? The Apple monitor came out 2 YEARS ago. Beleive it or not, there have been advances in LCD technology since then.

Let me get you started on YOUR comparison. I'll start by explaining to you WHY larger color gamut monitors are not the best for high end Offset and Digital Print production where color match is critical.

This from Monitor God, Karl Lang, the architect of the Sony Artisan, the Radius PressView, ColorMatch, ProSense and many other products. He has worked with display technology both CRT and LCD for the last 15 years.

He says:

A wide gamut LCD display is not a good thing for most (95%) of high
end users. The data that leaves your graphic card and travels over the
DVI cable is 8 bit per component. You can't change this. The OS, ICC
CMMs, the graphic card, the DVI spec, and Photoshop will all have to be
upgraded before this will change and that's going to take a while. What
does this mean to you? It means that when you send RGB data to a wide
gamut display the colorimetric distance between any two colors is much
larger. As an example, lets say you have two adjacent color patches one
is 230,240,200 and the patch next to it is 230,241,200. On a standard
LCD or CRT those two colors may be around .8 Delta E apart. On an Adobe
RGB display those colors might be 2 Delta E apart on an ECI RGB display
this could be as high as 4 delta E.

It's very nice to be able to display all kinds of saturated colors you
may never use in your photographs, however if the smallest visible
adjustment you can make to a skin tone is 4 delta E you will become
very frustrated very quickly.

More bits in the display does not fix this problem. 10 bit LUTs, 14
Bit 3D LUTs, 10 bit column drivers, time-domain bits, none of these
technologies will solve problem 1. Until the path from photoshop to the
pixel is at least 10 bits the whole way, I advise sticking to a display
with something close to ColorMatch or sRGB.

********** Now on to those "Front Panel Display Controls" that so many like to tout as making the New Dell's Superior:

Lang Says, "Unless the display has "TRUE 10 bit or greater 1D LUTs that are 8-10-10" ( and the Dell's are not) user front panel controls for color temp, blacklevel and gamma are useless for calibration and can in fact make things worse. An 8-10-8 3D LUT will not hurt things and can help achieve a fixed contrast ratio which is a good thing.

As an example the fact that Apple's display has no controls other than
backlight is actually a very good thing for an 8-8-8 LCD if your going
to use calibration. Apple optimizes the factory LUTs so as to provide
the most individual colors. smooth greyscale and the least loss. Then
the calibration is done in the graphic card LUT. As these are all 8 bit
it's best if the user does not mess with the display LUTs at all."

*****You can find the full text of Lang's posts and related discussions at:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9613&hl=prosense

My own experience producing high Color Matched Offset Print, Web, Digital Print and Flash Video confirms this.

Our new high gamut HP 30" is great for Video and Web Playback -- but it goes not where near our production workflow.

So there: I have compared your "new Dell" to the 2-Year Old Apple.

Now you can "hopefully" understand why a 2-Year Old Apple is far Superior to your New Dell for High End Color Matched Production.

Dante

[dante@sisna.com]

I don't see a good reason why that would be. The Dell has a better picture, which I would imagine is also important for the kind of work you do. If it's true that it needs to be calibrated to get the accuracy that the Apple supposedly provides, then get it calibrated. This is koolaid at its worst. Show me one professional link where it is suggested that photo work requires only the Apple to get things done right.

You do not understand the difference between Calibration and Profiling and Between Accuracy and Monitor Bit Depth.

Read my latest post where I show you exactly why (if you have the experience to understand it, which I doubt you do) you are mistaken.

No amount of Calibration can make a monitor that is not suited towards a specific purpose (in this case High End Color Matched Production) better than one that is -- Higher Gamut is acutally a NEGATIVE thing and a "newer" monitor means very little in this case.

Learn, Learn, Learn.

You say I drink "kool aid" -- I say you use cliché's to mask your lack of knowledge. I have MANY non-Apple components, monitors and equipment in my studio.

Dante

[dante@sisna.com]

I don't see a good reason why that would be. The Dell has a better picture, which I would imagine is also important for the kind of work you do. If it's true that it needs to be calibrated to get the accuracy that the Apple supposedly provides, then get it calibrated. This is koolaid at its worst. Show me one professional link where it is suggested that photo work requires only the Apple to get things done right.


I would NEVER say that "photo work requires only the Apple to get things done right" -- in fact Apple monitors are considered low to middle of the road compared to high end Eizo's, NEC's, LaCies and perhaps one Samsung. Notice I did not mention any Dell's.

Now here is the link you asked for:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...13&hl=prosense

I have MANY more.

Dante

[YoYoMa]

What I do know is that when comparing the old Dell with the current Apple, their pictures were usually practically identical, and that the new Dell puts out a much more pleasing picture than the old Dell.

You're right when you say that I'm not educated on the insanely intricate details of print studio work and the technical details of how Photoshop interacts with a monitor. I am, however, still not mistaken about the fact that the Dell (not MY Dell) is the better monitor for most situations. For anyone to suggest that the Apple display is superior simply because of the one thing it offers the small percentage of users that would actually require such an insane level of accuracy in Photoshop is being rather misleading indeed, and they are most assuredly pouring everyone here a big fat cup of Apple kool-aid.

What I just read does not suggest that the Apple is worth the extra money. It is still yesterdays LCD tech and thus still overpriced. It just shows that it possesses a feature that is necessary to a very small number of people, and those people are being required to pay too much for it.

[dante@sisna.com]

What I do know is that when comparing the old Dell with the current Apple, their pictures were usually practically identical, and that the new Dell puts out a much more pleasing picture than the old Dell.

You're right when you say that I'm not educated on the insanely intricate details of print studio work and the technical details of how Photoshop interacts with a monitor. I am, however, still not mistaken about the fact that the Dell (not MY Dell) is the better monitor for most situations. For anyone to suggest that the Apple display is superior simply because of the one thing it offers the small percentage of users that would actually require such an insane level of accuracy in Photoshop is being rather misleading indeed, and they are most assuredly pouring everyone here a big fat cup of Apple kool-aid.

What I just read does not suggest that the Apple is worth the extra money. It is still yesterdays LCD tech and thus still overpriced. It just shows that it possesses a feature that is necessary to a very small number of people, and those people are being required to pay too much for it.

You are correct about Dell's being "better for the masses." They are great for Video, Everyday Use, HD, Games, etc.

You are wrong about "what I just read does not suggest that the Apple is worth the extra money." For high end print production where color match is important they most certainly are -- If you understood the article than you would know that this is exactly, not literally, what it says.

For the People who need the Apple, its PRICE is actually a Bargain -- Go compare it to an EIZO, NEC, LaCie or Samsung -- APPLE IS THE CHEAPEST!

[CJD2112]

What I do know is that when comparing the old Dell with the current Apple, their pictures were usually practically identical, and that the new Dell puts out a much more pleasing picture than the old Dell.

There's the fault in your logic. It's not about what "your" eye sees, but about color match, calibration and screen to print spec's. The ACD's two years old are still better products than anything Dell can produce, for professional work, which is why the architects at Frank O. Gehry's new office in NYC all use ACD's on their Windows PC's (as AutoCAD is a Windows only program) and a few on their Mac Pro's running Vista. It's a better monitor. Period.

[dante@sisna.com]

There's the fault in your logic. It's not about what "your" eye sees, but about color match, calibration and screen to print spec's. The ACD's two years old are still better products than anything Dell can produce, for professional work, which is why the architects at Frank O. Gehry's new office in NYC all use ACD's on their Windows PC's (as AutoCAD is a Windows only program) and a few on their Mac Pro's running Vista. It's a better monitor. Period.

Yep!

I do that "Color Match Dance" everyday, bound to the desk, surrounded by an NEC LCD, a Mitsubishi CRT, a Dell LCD (for Pallets) and an ACD 30".

ACD blows 'em all away.

[zap2]

There's the fault in your logic. It's not about what "your" eye sees, but about color match, calibration and screen to print spec's. The ACD's two years old are still better products than anything Dell can produce, for professional work, which is why the architects at Frank O. Gehry's new office in NYC all use ACD's on their Windows PC's (as AutoCAD is a Windows only program) and a few on their Mac Pro's running Vista. It's a better monitor. Period.

And they look as cool as anything!

Sometime I wish the ACD support other inputs, but I'll live. What can I say? I like my set up to look nice!

[YoYoMa]

Well LaCie is known for pricing higher than what they actually offer, and the Samsung is actually newer and cheaper than the Apple, and I think it also uses the new High Color gamut.

Now I'm not saying that there aren't a select few (very very few) out there that may require that very little bit of accuracy (we're talking about at the pixel level here) that the Apple supposedly provides. Apparently there are.

I'm saying that the Dell is actually BETTER for the majority of people, is tons of money less than the Apple, and if it weren't for the looks of the Apple and the Apple kool-aid factor, not a person on this earth would ever consider it for a second over the Dell. That's a BIG deal. It means Apple is providing less value to its customers than its competition. Your situation is very very far away from a typical monitor user and should not be used to defend the Apple as a valuable bargain. It is NOT a bargain and that feature you need does not cost Apple the extra money they are expecting you, and especially its everyday customers, to pay. The Dell IS a bargain. The Apple is simply cheaper than a LaCie and that's hardly a bargain compliment because everything's cheaper than a LaCie. Considering the Apple is almost three years old it better be cheaper than something more than the most expensive monitors out there.

Now I know what you're going to say. The Apple is the Mercedes of monitors, is a "pro" monitor, and thus deserves the higher price. Well that may be true, but it's not a good value to 99% of Apples customers and they should care about that. Not to mention the Apples are apparently WORSE for video. Those pro features you speak of CAN also co-exsist with newer LCD tech like LED backlights.

Simply put, for Apples core customer base, the Apples lack the value of the competition because their monitor tech is TOO DAMN OLD!!! Going on three years and still charging more than everyone else?? How can you guys defend that? Why is this thread filled with so little negativity about what Apple is charging for these out of date things? I know they're pretty but comeon already. Apparently if you're not a color accuracy nut at the pixel level in Photo work (quite the requirement,) then the Apples are WORSE compared to monitors that are almost 40% LESS money.

[matticus008]

Oh, get a life. My comment wasn't even directed towards you in the first place, so why you are taking the time in attacking someone's comment in a blog about Mac Cinema Display's is beyond me, other than you have some inherit need to proclaim your high intellect. As they say, this is an A and B conversation, so C your way out... :rolleyes:
Perhaps you're confusing Macrumors with your own personal blog. From where I stand, you were trying to draw some sort of comparison to hotel prices, doing it incorrectly, and didn't like that you turned out to be wrong. There are no "A and B" conversations on a forum.

It's more helpful to those who don't understand UK pricing to have accurate information to explain the apparent price increase as you cross the pond. No one was attacking you or acting from any sort of "inherit" need for anything other than accurate information. When you make erroneous statements publicly while trying to explain something, expect it to be corrected. Anything else would be a disservice.

There are those in the world who don't know why Apple products are priced higher abroad. Having the right explanation is an obvious goal here.

[Evangelion]

The answer is simple: KVM Switch

Why do you guys insist on using overtly complex solutions for a problem that has a simple solution available? KVM makes the setup a lot more complex than simple additonal DVI-port does. It also costs extra.

[Evangelion]

That doesn't solve the problem for those who would like to use additional inputs without clutter.

*sigh*.... I really don't get it. There are people who could live with the additional cable going to the monitor. And those people would welcome the additonal port. Then we have those who couldn't stand the extra cable. And for those the solution is simple: they can simply choose not to use the port (like they are forced to do right now, due to not having that port available). Right now the issue of clutter is solved by making it very hard to attach a second computer to the screen. And the "clean-desk" crowd is extatic because they can avoid the clutter (because they are forced to, whether they like it or not). But they fail to understand that having an extra DVI-port in the monitor would NOT make their desktops more cluttered. Reason being that THEY ARE NOT FORCED TO USE IT! Or are they drones that think that if Apple offers them anything (like, and extra DVI-port) they are REQUIRED to use it? Then we have those who could live with the extra cable just fine, and they could use another port. But no, we can't have that port because "it would make our desktops more cluttered, even though we wouldn't be forced to use that port if we don't like the extra clutter". I mean, really?

This might come as a shock to you, but not everyone has a workdesk that is uber-clean.

Your line of thinking imposes an unnatural division.

your line of thinking is one of blind fanboyism. That is, anything Apple does, is good. Only one port in ACD? That's good because it reduces clutter! And it does that by making it practically impossible to attach a second computer to the screen. Go Apple!

People who like clean work areas might still need to work with multiple inputs.

And what do those people do now with the ACD? USse KVM's? Why couldn't they do that with an ACD with two DVI-ports? And how exactly does additional cable going to the display increase clutter, whereas KVM standing on your desk doesn't? And yes, your suggestion of external "box" does make the solution more complex than it needs to be. Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Right now the people who need more inputs and clean workareas are forced to buy something else than ACD's. ACD's look "clean" but they don't have the inputs. If they add extra inputs through KVM's, it would cost even more and it could look even more cluttered. At that point some other monitor with those ports built-in would look cleaner, while being considerably less expensive.

Why should they add additional inputs to serve the small market of non-professionals who want them and not consider anyone else?

No, the question is "why shouldn't they?". Because the current setup "looks pretty"? Um, OK. A screen with additional port would look just as pretty. Only time there would be a difference would be when the user decides to use the additional port. If he doesn't use it, there is no difference at all. Or are you OK with the fact that there are people bying something else than Apple because for some reason Apple does not offer them a suitable product? Shouldn't we want as many people as possible to buy Apple gear?

My solution gives whiny "more inputs" fools what they want without breaking the Apple aesthetic.

What, KVM's? those cost extra, and they are an extra hassle. Seriously, One DVI-connection = Apple aesthetics? Is KVM on the desktop also part of that "Apple aesthetics"? Are you REALLY saying that eliminating basic functionality (multiple inputs really are that. My old LCD I'm typing this on has multiple inputs, and it's several years old and it's wasn't top-of-the-line even back then) for the sake of "aesthetics" is OK?

What exactly is complicated or expensive about moving the ports off the monitor itself into a box 20" away?

And where would that box be? Wouldn't that box be A LOT more cluttery than a simpe DVI-port would be? Why create such an complicates setup, when the simple solution is to simply add an additional port to the screen?

[JFreak]

Right now people who need more than one port need to look elsewhere for their monitors.

Bingo! As well as right now people who need cheapest-computer-money-can-buy need to look elsewhere for their computers.

Bottom line: Apple does not cater for everybody, and Apple should not even have to. Apple does what they see is best and those will always buy who think Apple's is the best and at proper price point.

And there are more of us than ever, so Apple does not feel the need to change their way.

What you said is the truth, and I love it! It's so great Apple does not try to be another Dell who tries to sell something for everybody. Back in a day before Jobs came back, Apple used to try to do just that, but we can remember what happened. Currently, there is no PC manufacturer who has clearer product lineup than Apple does and that is really an *advantage* for Apple. If you talk about "a MacBook", everyone who knows anything about Apple products will know what you're talking about. But talk about "Inspiron" and you'll hear more questions than you want to answer.

That said...

I would love it if Apple expanded their Cinema Display lineup to smaller sizes. Should they have a 15" and 17" ACD of similar design and spec than the current low-end 20" model, I bet those would sell very well. But I'm just as pleased to see price drop for current low-end model. I just hope there would be a "sub 500 euro cinema display" for sale...

[killmoms]

Are you serious? Have you even checked out the specs of the new Dell and compared them? Are you aware of the larger color gamut that it has? Do you know anything more than what you learned from drinking the Apple kool-aid? The Apple monitor came out 2 YEARS ago. Beleive it or not, there have been advances in LCD technology since then.

PVA < S-IPS for color, sorry, play again. :rolleyes:

[Bosunsfate]

Something better is certainly coming and if it saw me first I'd love it!
:D

I don't know, as interesting as that sounds the idea of my computer "seeing" me makes me a bit uncomfortable. I mean, privacy, hello (j/k) lol. :p

Man, I spent about 15 minutes on www.imdb.com trying to find the movie, but I seem to recall an old 80's movie where a guy built a home computer and it took over his life and wouldn't let him out of his house.

Certainly not the best geek movie in the 80's a la Real Genius or Wierd Science, but hey, when the computer starts watching you..:rolleyes:

[dante@sisna.com]

Well LaCie is known for pricing higher than what they actually offer, and the Samsung is actually newer and cheaper than the Apple, and I think it also uses the new High Color gamut.

Now I'm not saying that there aren't a select few (very very few) out there that may require that very little bit of accuracy (we're talking about at the pixel level here) that the Apple supposedly provides. Apparently there are.

I'm saying that the Dell is actually BETTER for the majority of people, is tons of money less than the Apple, and if it weren't for the looks of the Apple and the Apple kool-aid factor, not a person on this earth would ever consider it for a second over the Dell. That's a BIG deal. It means Apple is providing less value to its customers than its competition. Your situation is very very far away from a typical monitor user and should not be used to defend the Apple as a valuable bargain. It is NOT a bargain and that feature you need does not cost Apple the extra money they are expecting you, and especially its everyday customers, to pay. The Dell IS a bargain. The Apple is simply cheaper than a LaCie and that's hardly a bargain compliment because everything's cheaper than a LaCie. Considering the Apple is almost three years old it better be cheaper than something more than the most expensive monitors out there.

Now I know what you're going to say. The Apple is the Mercedes of monitors, is a "pro" monitor, and thus deserves the higher price. Well that may be true, but it's not a good value to 99&#37; of Apples customers and they should care about that. Not to mention the Apples are apparently WORSE for video. Those pro features you speak of CAN also co-exsist with newer LCD tech like LED backlights.

Simply put, for Apples core customer base, the Apples lack the value of the competition because their monitor tech is TOO DAMN OLD!!! Going on three years and still charging more than everyone else?? How can you guys defend that? Why is this thread filled with so little negativity about what Apple is charging for these out of date things? I know they're pretty but comeon already. Apparently if you're not a color accuracy nut at the pixel level in Photo work (quite the requirement,) then the Apples are WORSE compared to monitors that are almost 40% LESS money.


You are wrong to state that 99% of Apple's users don't need their level of monitor accuracy -- Do you know Apple's exact customer demographics?

Obviously you do not: the majority of Apple's users are professionals in Graphic Arts, Web and Video Production, Architecture, Scientific Research, Medicine and Dental, 3D Modeling.

So STAND DOWN my friend, you are starting to sound: 1) Inexperienced, 2) Foolish, 3) Blatently Wrong.

And by the way, LaCie sells repackaged NEC's with altered software and still MORE expensive than Apple ACD's -- Also to state that Samsung is "cheaper" means that you are looking at their low end stuff -- look at their Graphic Arts monitors. Look the 20" LED BLU -- So that is a 20" monitor for between $1500 and $1900 bucks -- I'll Say it Again, FOR The LARGE MARKET (probably 30% of Apple Users) that need them, Apple Monitors are now CHEAP.

[dante@sisna.com]

Why do you guys insist on using overtly complex solutions for a problem that has a simple solution available? KVM makes the setup a lot more complex than simple additonal DVI-port does. It also costs extra.

I don't insist on anything: I merely offer a reasonable solution to the PROBLEM of APPLE not including mutiple inputs.

Would I like them to? Sure. Do they? No.

I merely present an elegant solution.

[Veracon]

Say what?! A 30" is roughly $1250??? Do education discounts apply? How can I order it and have it delivered to NYC? lol ... no, seriously... :eek:
Oh, not at all, that's the price drop. The 30" was DKK 20.999 before the drop, now it's 13.999; that's a drop of DKK 7.000 which is around US$1250. The display itself is around $2500 (which, while still way more than the US price, is quite a lot cheaper than it used to be!)

[G4DP]

Even though they have discounted the ACD's in the UK wee still paying £100 more than the US store. It's rediculous. I know we pay a lot of tax, but that is a joke.

What's Steve Jobs e-mail again?

The difference in prices is becoming stupid for the same spec system.

8 Cores
2GB Ram
250 Drive 1
500 Drive 2

7300 GT Graphics

Everything else stock, and a 23" display, we pay almost $1500 more. Sorry this is to big a difference to justify.

[YoYoMa]

I seriously doubt that 30&#37; of Apples customers require that intricate level of detail at the pixel level more than the higher contrast ratio, better pixel response time, hundreds of dollars of savings, higher color gamut, more display inputs, monitor movement flexibility, etc etc etc. You and many in this thread are looking for any way on earth to justify Apples shortcomings that are here not because of design flaws, but because of an almost 3 year old design. I would NEVER buy the Apple in its current form and would only think about it if it were remotely close to the Dells price because of its looks. There are so many people here that feel the need to defend Apples every decision but the truth is their displays are OLD and and lack many important features. PERIOD! Defend their goofy price with the fact that they are the equivalent to a $20000 Samsung all you want, but we all know they aren't. They are worse than the new 30" consumer Samsung that just came out overseas for $150 less, that's for sure. I think the fact that this color accuracy feature is the only plus you can defend for this thing proves it's a rip-off for most of Apples customers. It's not like the Dells are so much worse in this regard. If you're a Pro you have different needs than if you are not. Don't forget that. These are not being marketed just to Pros and should offer a lot more than the competition if they are going to charge this much more.

[dude-x]

Dante,
While Apple Cinema Displays are suitable for offset printing, what about people who own high gamut color inkjets like the Epson's 4x00 series and up, and the HP DesignJet series? I've read that some inkjets can cover most of the Adobe RGB gamut, so I am wondering if high end Eizo's and something like a Dell HC Display will be appropiate for this kind of work.

Also Windows Vista does away with the 8 bit limitation to hardware so that it can natively support 10 bit monochrome displays for X-rays, and future HDR, wide gamut displays.

[stealthman1]

These are not being marketed just to Pros and should offer a lot more than the competition if they are going to charge this much more.

They do. Apple is not competing with Dell any more than Acura competes with Scion.

[alansky]

Well LaCie is known for pricing higher than what they actually offer...

Give it a rest, YoYo. It is abundantly clear to everyone but you how little you know about this subject. You're just stubbornly defending your point of view, which is a 24-karat drag.

[georgemann]

I've always prefered two side by side monitors over one large one and now the price is low enough (for me) for side by side 20-inch monitors.

George

[YoYoMa]

If Dells are so inferior then perhaps Apple should consider proving it with MORE flexibility, MORE inputs, MORE contrast, MORE natural color and even backlighting through LEDs, FASTER response times, and all the other things they could include to improve their displays over the competition. I can't recall a single Scion that is MORE appealing than an Acura and if there were, there would be a problem. This defense that you are applying for the Apple is for such a small number of users that it is clear you have no REAL defense for Apple not upgrading their monitors significantly in the last three years. Believe it or not, most people here would like their Apple monitors to have more of the Dells features and if they aren't going to offer them, then they shouldn't charge MORE.

It's like what they did with the G4 Powerbook. That thing was hideously out of date, yet until the new model was released Apple still chose to charge $2500 for it. And believe it or not, there were people like dante out there saying they were worth every penny, even a bargain. Well, they weren't! Apple just chose to charge too much for them, just like what is happening here. Sure, there are people out there that needed OSX so bad that they would defend Apple for this, but they were wrong. Apple was overcharging their customers, just like they are now.

[princealfie]

If Dells are so inferior then perhaps Apple should consider proving it with MORE flexibility, MORE inputs, MORE contrast, MORE natural color and even backlighting through LEDs, FASTER response times, and all the other things they could include to improve their displays over the competition. I can't recall a single Scion that is MORE appealing than an Acura and if there were, there would be a problem. This defense that you are applying for the Apple is for such a small number of users that it is clear you have no REAL defense for Apple not upgrading their monitors significantly in the last three years. Believe it or not, most people here would like their Apple monitors to have more of the Dells features and if they aren't going to offer them, then they shouldn't charge MORE.

It's like what they did with the G4 Powerbook. That thing was hideously out of date, yet until the new model was released Apple still chose to charge $2500 for it. And believe it or not, there were people like dante out there saying they were worth every penny, even a bargain. Well, they weren't! Apple just chose to charge too much for them, just like what is happening here. Sure, there are people out there that needed OSX so bad that they would defend Apple for this, but they were wrong. Apple was overcharging their customers, just like they are now.

Uh, it's NOT about features, it's about the RESULTS that the monitor can deliver you.

Why have all the fancy bells and whistles when you prefer something that works perfectly from out the box?

[dante@sisna.com]

Dante,
While Apple Cinema Displays are suitable for offset printing, what about people who own high gamut color inkjets like the Epson's 4x00 series and up, and the HP DesignJet series? I've read that some inkjets can cover most of the Adobe RGB gamut, so I am wondering if high end Eizo's and something like a Dell HC Display will be appropiate for this kind of work.

Also Windows Vista does away with the 8 bit limitation to hardware so that it can natively support 10 bit monochrome displays for X-rays, and future HDR, wide gamut displays.

Now that is a GREAT Question!

I myself own an HP DesignJet 130, DYE Based High Gamut Printer -- it is my Match Proofing Device and I also own a Colorspan Displaymaker XII -- I have found that my ACD get's very close to the entire gamut of these printers but yes in some areas falls short.

Here is a link to an article that reviews the color gamut capabilities of high end monitors:

http://www.lb-ag.ch/news/digital/Quato/Intelliproof/seyboldreport.pdf

You can see that the ACD 23 hits about 80% of this gamut. The ACD 30 has the same gamut. Ignore what this article says about screen controls as it is just wrong.

I do think Apple will offer a high gamut monitor in the coming months -- I just hope they continue to do it right unlike Dell's cheapo consumer solution -- if they don't I'll be buying another OLD ACD 30inch for my studio.

Good questions.

[dante@sisna.com]

I seriously doubt that 30% of Apples customers require that intricate level of detail at the pixel level more than the higher contrast ratio, better pixel response time, hundreds of dollars of savings, higher color gamut, more display inputs, monitor movement flexibility, etc etc etc. You and many in this thread are looking for any way on earth to justify Apples shortcomings that are here not because of design flaws, but because of an almost 3 year old design. I would NEVER buy the Apple in its current form and would only think about it if it were remotely close to the Dells price because of its looks. There are so many people here that feel the need to defend Apples every decision but the truth is their displays are OLD and and lack many important features. PERIOD! Defend their goofy price with the fact that they are the equivalent to a $20000 Samsung all you want, but we all know they aren't. They are worse than the new 30" consumer Samsung that just came out overseas for $150 less, that's for sure. I think the fact that this color accuracy feature is the only plus you can defend for this thing proves it's a rip-off for most of Apples customers. It's not like the Dells are so much worse in this regard. If you're a Pro you have different needs than if you are not. Don't forget that. These are not being marketed just to Pros and should offer a lot more than the competition if they are going to charge this much more.

They don't "Charge More" -- You get more with an Apple Monitor. Period. Better profiles, more finely tuned color range, etc.

Who do you think Adobe sells the Creative Suite to on the Mac Side?

Mom's in the kitchen?

Who do you think Final Cut Pro is sold to? Dad in the Garage.

Please! You know not what you speak.

I will not respond to anymore of your posts. Obviously you need to buy el cheapo monitors 'cause you spend all your time spouting trash as opposed to earning cash.

I am going to use my superior tech to service my clients who pay me and who benefit from my knowledge, and my ACD 30" -- My dell is great for the pallets however.

Stand Down.

[YoYoMa]

Believe it or not, those features actually PRODUCE results. Results the Apple DOESN'T produce. Yet people here still praise the Apple and shun the Dell. Strange how that is. When Apple overcharges its customers, it's this kind of mentality that tells them they can get away with it and it's this kind of mentality that will allow them to do it again and again.

[dante@sisna.com]

If Dells are so inferior then perhaps Apple should consider proving it with MORE flexibility, MORE inputs, MORE contrast, MORE natural color and even backlighting through LEDs, FASTER response times, and all the other things they could include to improve their displays over the competition. I can't recall a single Scion that is MORE appealing than an Acura and if there were, there would be a problem. This defense that you are applying for the Apple is for such a small number of users that it is clear you have no REAL defense for Apple not upgrading their monitors significantly in the last three years. Believe it or not, most people here would like their Apple monitors to have more of the Dells features and if they aren't going to offer them, then they shouldn't charge MORE.

It's like what they did with the G4 Powerbook. That thing was hideously out of date, yet until the new model was released Apple still chose to charge $2500 for it. And believe it or not, there were people like dante out there saying they were worth every penny, even a bargain. Well, they weren't! Apple just chose to charge too much for them, just like what is happening here. Sure, there are people out there that needed OSX so bad that they would defend Apple for this, but they were wrong. Apple was overcharging their customers, just like they are now.

None of what you describe matters to the pro market and the way DELL and others currently implement these features actually reduces their precision to the pros.

Again, you are speaking from ignorance and you are really making yourself look, well, young.

I would be respectful and say "inexperienced" but most inexperienced people know when to quit.

Young kids don't.

[dante@sisna.com]

Believe it or not, those features actually PRODUCE results. Results the Apple DOESN'T produce. Yet people here still praise the Apple and shun the Dell. Strange how that is. When Apple overcharges its customers, it's this kind of mentality that tells them they can get away with it and it's this kind of mentality that will allow them to do it again and again.

WRONG

For Example, High Pixel Refresh Rate nearly always equals bad dithering which no Print or HD VIDEO editor would want.

Great for playback of the Finished Piece however.

[YoYoMa]

You get MORE with an Apple monitor?? NO YOU DON'T! I've named 7 different important advantages that a "cheapo" Dell has and an Apple doesn't. All you've done is suggest the Apple is better for Photo Pros and only at certain tasks! It's not my fault that the Apple kool-aid doesn't taste so good on its way back up!! If you want me to believe you are right then explain how the Apples benefits outweigh the Dells, and show that the Dells weaknesses outweigh the Apples. DON'T just yell STAND DOWN, especially when it's YOU who cannot defend your position.

[YoYoMa]

Ahhh, so all Apple users should want a smaller color gamut and slower refresh. Gimme a break. I'll bet you'd defend that Apple green screen from the 80s if they hadn't upgraded it yet.

[dante@sisna.com]

You get MORE with an Apple monitor?? NO YOU DON'T! I've named 7 different important advantages that a "cheapo" Dell has and an Apple doesn't. All you've done is suggest the Apple is better for Photo Pros and only at certain tasks! It's not my fault that the Apple kool-aid doesn't taste so good on its way back up!! If you want me to believe you are right then explain how the Apples benefits outweigh the Dells, and show that the Dells weaknesses outweigh the Apples. DON'T just yell STAND DOWN, especially when it's YOU who cannot defend your position.

I have posted 3 links to pro level sources -- What "evidence" have you posted?

Citing specs does not count -- if they did, then I presume you'd use a PC over an Apple as most PC's have better Specs.

You don't have the experience to consider this discussion any further.

I will not do violence to you as I do not practice this.

I will now end this disucssion.

I will let our fellow forum members be the judges.

Goodbye

Dante

[avkills]

I do video and production for a living; plus video engineering. The ACD are the closest I've seen to actually matching a properly adjusted broadcast CRT video monitor as far as what you see in the FCP canvas (program) window.

I've used some Dells for travel and they are fine for run and gun type work. All the color, gamma and contrast/brightness controls make for a very easily screwed up color profile. It is not even worth calibrating since we rent them out with our computers.

That being said; I really don't trust anything on ANY LCD monitor when it comes to video. You really need a waveform/vectorscope and an external broadcast video monitor to make any real informed decisions. However, I'd say 80-90% of the time, when I am at home working on my G5 + 30" ACD, where I don't have the external goodies, when I go to work, I very rarely have to re-tweak anything.

Now the 20" old school NECs I have in the edit suite at work are truly sickening, but I have the external tools to make sure things look right. ;) I have a 23" ACD on the wish list.

-mark

[YoYoMa]

I have posted the real evidence that you have been dodging this whole conversation, or at least defending with things like "less response time is BETTER!" The fact is, if Apple wants to charge hundreds more for their products, they should have some newly refreshed technology in place to warrant it. Where's the LED tech that everyone else is using? Wheres the contrast? Wheres ALL the new tech that's come out in three years time!!! Hell, the Apple display doesn't even swivel!!!

Now I mean you no disrespect. I'm sure you've been in this business for a long time, but you know as well as I do that there are features that this monitor is missing because of its massive age. It's an overpriced and out of date consumer monitor that just happens to have a good color calibrator and a pretty case. Just like the G4 Powerbook was an overpriced and out of date laptop with a good OS and pretty case.

If the Dell can be had for 1250 no tax, I'll miss the pretty case of the Apple, but I'll enjoy the Dells or HPs better picture and additional features much more and I think most customers would agree...at least the ones that aren't drunk off of Steves love juice.

[avkills]

I have posted the real evidence that you have been dodging this whole conversation, or at least defending with things like "less response time is BETTER!" The fact is, if Apple wants to charge hundreds more for their products, they should have some newly refreshed technology in place to warrant it. Where's the LED tech that everyone else is using? Wheres the contrast? Wheres ALL the new tech that's come out in three years time!!! Hell, the Apple display doesn't even swivel!!!

Now I mean you no disrespect. I'm sure you've been in this business for a long time, but you know as well as I do that there are features that this monitor is missing because of its massive age. It's an overpriced and out of date consumer monitor that just happens to have a good color calibrator and a pretty case. Just like the G4 Powerbook was an overpriced and out of date laptop with a good OS and pretty case.

If the Dell can be had for 1250 no tax, I'll miss the pretty case of the Apple, but I'll enjoy the Dells or HPs better picture and additional features much more and I think most customers would agree...at least the ones that aren't drunk off of Steves love juice.

I think the problem is you keep spouting specs and options without linking to an acknowledged professional in the industry "proving" they are better. I think I'll trust the professionals instead some marketing speak from the makers.

And Dante has already conceded that THEY ARE BETTER for the average consumer who is playing games and watching video on their computers; in other words, the typical home computer user, ie not a professional who HAS to have a monitor that accurately displays the proper color gamut in which they are working.

-mark

[BiikeMike]

I have posted the real evidence that you have been dodging this whole conversation, or at least defending with things like "less response time is BETTER!" The fact is, if Apple wants to charge hundreds more for their products, they should have some newly refreshed technology in place to warrant it. Where's the LED tech that everyone else is using? Wheres the contrast? Wheres ALL the new tech that's come out in three years time!!! Hell, the Apple display doesn't even swivel!!!

Now I mean you no disrespect. I'm sure you've been in this business for a long time, but you know as well as I do that there are features that this monitor is missing because of its massive age. It's an overpriced and out of date consumer monitor that just happens to have a good color calibrator and a pretty case. Just like the G4 Powerbook was an overpriced and out of date laptop with a good OS and pretty case.

If the Dell can be had for 1250 no tax, I'll miss the pretty case of the Apple, but I'll enjoy the Dells or HPs better picture and additional features much more and I think most customers would agree...at least the ones that aren't drunk off of Steves love juice.

Dante has been being nice here, I however, feel that he does not need to be. are you just a complete idiot?! Or maybe you just can't read?

a PRO level monitor does not have all of the "features" because they are not needed. What the hell is the point of having a calibrated monitor if you can adjust the contrast, or tint, or..... ANYTHING? THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT A CALIBRATED MONITOR

[matticus008]

*sigh*.... I really don't get it. There are people who could live with the additional cable going to the monitor. And those people would welcome the additonal port. Then we have those who couldn't stand the extra cable. And for those the solution is simple: they can simply choose not to use the port (like they are forced to do right now, due to not having that port available).
The solution is equally simple: don't bother with either crowd because they're not the intended market. That's the one Apple's using. My point is that it doesn't make any more sense to add extra ports than to decrease the aesthetic of an Apple display. Obviously utility and aesthetics have a very closely matched rank at Apple, for better or worse.
But no, we can't have that port because "it would make our desktops more cluttered, even though we wouldn't be forced to use that port if we don't like the extra clutter".
No, you can't have the port because Apple doesn't care about you.

your line of thinking is one of blind fanboyism. That is, anything Apple does, is good. Only one port in ACD?
Don't be ridiculous. I would never buy an ACD at the prices they sell it for for my own personal use. I don't need the professional features on my home system, and I haven't done graphic design work since the days when people still avoided LCDs. My only point is that your desire for multiple inputs doesn't trump other peoples' desire for multiple inputs and no clutter, or more importantly, the target group's indifference to the issue. Professionals buying high-end equipment will buy a nice KVM switch if they want to use a single display with multiple machines (after all, wouldn't you likely have more than two computers and want to use the same keyboard and mouse as well?). The added value for them is close to zero.
And yes, your suggestion of external "box" does make the solution more complex than it needs to be. Keep It Simple, Stupid!
Explain the complication. Really. It's the exact same thing, just clutter-free.
ACD's look "clean" but they don't have the inputs. If they add extra inputs through KVM's, it would cost even more and it could look even more cluttered.
Why would you put the KVM on your desktop? You'd more likely put it neatly on the underside of the desk, out of the way. You'd still just have the ACD's two cables on your desk, and not some squidlike assembly.
At that point some other monitor with those ports built-in would look cleaner, while being considerably less expensive.
If you're spending $800 on a 23" monitor, I don't think an $80 KVM is a problem (4-way).
Or are you OK with the fact that there are people bying something else than Apple because for some reason Apple does not offer them a suitable product?
Ding ding ding! This describes Apple as well.
Shouldn't we want as many people as possible to buy Apple gear?
Why? There's the fanboyism. Do you try to sell everyone Mac Pros and Final Cut Studio? Why would you try to sell everyone a Cinema Display? Just because it's the only display Apple makes doesn't mean everyone should buy one to add to their iMac or to hook up to their mini.
And where would that box be? Wouldn't that box be A LOT more cluttery than a simpe DVI-port would be? Why create such an complicates setup, when the simple solution is to simply add an additional port to the screen?
Of course it wouldn't. You don't put KVMs on your desk if you're a "neat and tidy" kind of person. You put them UNDER your desk. The monitor's extra port doesn't solve the "piles of keyboards and mice" problem that you would have, and it artificially limits you to TWO computers instead of two, four, eight, or even more systems available with a KVM to suit your particular needs. The "complicated setup" with multiple machines occurs with not using a KVM.

[YoYoMa]

The Dell is a capable monitor. It's just supposedly not as accurate out of the box and that is a problem for people who spend hours messing with color. What Dante said was that the Dell was better "for the masses" but then continued to explain that the Apple is better because pros need color accuracy, as if that mattered. Pros that spend hours with color detail at the pixel level are no where near the majority. I'm sure there were many Pros that thought the $2500 G4 Powerbook was a good value as well, but that's only because they needed OSX on the go, not because it was full of feature rich and current hardware.

My point is that since this monitor is so old, it should not cost this much. Sure it's worth it to a very select few, but that doesn't make it a good value and Apple knows this. They would lower the price if they thought they could get away with raising it up again when these features are finally added. Instead, when they finally do add the new features, they are going to say "Look at all this new value you're getting for the SAME money!!! Aren't we great here at Apple???"

[princealfie]

I'm just stunned at the debate going on here. I guess that I will be going for the ACD display knowing that it will be a good boost to my photographic rendition. Plus it works right out of the box.

[princealfie]

The Dell is a capable monitor. It's just supposedly not as accurate out of the box and that is a problem for people who spend hours messing with color. What Dante said was that the Dell was better "for the masses" but then continued to explain that the Apple is better because pros need color accuracy, as if that mattered. Pros that spend hours with color detail at the pixel level are no where near the majority. I'm sure there were many Pros that thought the $2500 G4 Powerbook was a good value as well, but that's only because they needed OSX on the go, not because it was full of feature rich and current hardware.

My point is that since this monitor is so old, it should not cost this much. Sure it's worth it to a very select few, but that doesn't make it a good value and Apple knows this. They would lower the price if they thought they could get away with raising it up again when these features are finally added. Instead, when they finally do add the new features, they are going to say "Look at all this new value you're getting for the SAME money!!! Aren't we great here at Apple???"

Yes, but the sarcasm about your supposition about the way Apple works isn't correct.

You assume just because a monitor is old then it's lousy by default. Does that mean I need to throw out my PowerMac G3 then? :rolleyes:

[dude-x]

Now that is a GREAT Question!

I myself own an HP DesignJet 130, DYE Based High Gamut Printer -- it is my Match Proofing Device and I also own a Colorspan Displaymaker XII -- I have found that my ACD get's very close to the entire gamut of these printers but yes in some areas falls short.

Here is a link to an article that reviews the color gamut capabilities of high end monitors:

http://www.lb-ag.ch/news/digital/Quato/Intelliproof/seyboldreport.pdf

You can see that the ACD 23 hits about 80% of this gamut. The ACD 30 has the same gamut. Ignore what this article says about screen controls as it is just wrong.

I do think Apple will offer a high gamut monitor in the coming months -- I just hope they continue to do it right unlike Dell's cheapo consumer solution -- if they don't I'll be buying another OLD ACD 30inch for my studio.

Good questions.

I read this [the Seybold report] a few months ago. Too bad there hasn't been a follow up lately measuring the latest CG211 from Eizo, as an example.

Rumor has it that the next revision of the Apple Cinema Display will have HDMI inputs, and support 10 bit per channel, as well having a wider gamut.
Some people may wonder why use HDMI? The latest HDMI spec 1.3a supports up to 16 bit per channel for wide gamut displays, and DVI doesn't support it officially. For DVI to support 10 bpc, you will need to use Dual Link DVI, which is a hack.

If true, I am so looking forward to get one.

Dante, for presswork, what is your opinion on the CCT of displays. Should a pressman use 6500K due to as some say, a weird physiological effect of emissive light vs reflected light, or 5000K for a truer match?

[joachim]

I seriously doubt that 30&#37; of Apples customers require that intricate level of detail at the pixel level more than the higher contrast ratio, better pixel response time, hundreds of dollars of savings, higher color gamut, more display inputs, monitor movement flexibility, etc etc etc. You and many in this thread are looking for any way on earth to justify Apples shortcomings that are here not because of design flaws, but because of an almost 3 year old design. I would NEVER buy the Apple in its current form and would only think about it if it were remotely close to the Dells price because of its looks. There are so many people here that feel the need to defend Apples every decision but the truth is their displays are OLD and and lack many important features. PERIOD! Defend their goofy price with the fact that they are the equivalent to a $20000 Samsung all you want, but we all know they aren't. They are worse than the new 30" consumer Samsung that just came out overseas for $150 less, that's for sure. I think the fact that this color accuracy feature is the only plus you can defend for this thing proves it's a rip-off for most of Apples customers. It's not like the Dells are so much worse in this regard. If you're a Pro you have different needs than if you are not. Don't forget that. These are not being marketed just to Pros and should offer a lot more than the competition if they are going to charge this much more.


First off, this is my first post. I registered just to reply to this message after reading for the past few weeks around the boards.

Second, I don't own a Mac. Yet.

Third, I'm a week away from graduating with a BDes degree in Visual Communications.

As a designer starting my own business, I'm looking around to get myself the best possible quality for my money. I've already played with a fair chunk of monitors myself, often frustrated with how color doesn't appear the way I want it to look. How can I impress a client when I print a mock-up that's supposed to show a nice green, but rather shows a puke green? It looks great on screen, but it's lying to me. I couldn't even tell if that dark color is a dark red or a dark brown, where a slight color difference could ruin the look of a website. Color is crucial.

I could care less if an ACD monitor doesn't have any other settings other than brightness. In fact, that's a good thing, it shows how well this monitor can be calibrated and hints that it works well right out of the box. I could care less if it is two years old if it still produce exceptional color quality for its value. If you take a look at the Buyer's Guide, Apple did improve the brightness of the 30" ACD at the end of March.

This monitor is specifically made for serious professionals like myself. If you want it for games, go ahead and get a Dell monitor. I know my gf is getting one soon, and I'm happy for her. As a designer, I can't afford to have any screw-ups, and a slight color or tonal change makes a huge difference. While it might not matter to you, it matters a lot to design professionals. If it can give me what I want to see better than any of the Dells can, then that's what I need.

[dante@sisna.com]

I read this [the Seybold report] a few months ago. Too bad there hasn't been a follow up lately measuring the latest CG211 from Eizo, as an example.

Rumor has it that the next revision of the Apple Cinema Display will have HDMI inputs, and support 10 bit per channel, as well having a wider gamut.
Some people may wonder why use HDMI? The latest HDMI spec 1.3a supports up to 16 bit per channel for wide gamut displays, and DVI doesn't support it officially. For DVI to support 10 bpc, you will need to use Dual Link DVI, which is a hack.

If true, I am so looking forward to get one.

Dante, for presswork, what is your opinion on the CCT of displays. Should a pressman use 6500K due to as some say, a weird physiological effect of emissive light vs reflected light, or 5000K for a truer match?


Yes I have heard that the new Apple's will support 10 bits per channell with a wider gamut -- this is why I have been holding off on a second ACD 30. If this is the case it will be fantastic.

And before others jump on me for what could be consider a flip flop -- that is going for a wide gamut Apple ACD, know 2 things: 1) I already addressed this in a previous post, and 2) the new Apple High Gamut ACD, unless the current Dell and HP is rumored to be true 10 bit, not 8 / 10 / 8 or 8 / 8 / 8 like the Dell and HP -- this means: the high gamut will actually be more accurate between pixels that are similar in RGB color unlike the current "new technology (insert laugh) Dell and HP in which Pixels of similar color are actually distorted to meet the expanded gamut of the monitor.

It is ironic to me that you brought up the whole 6500 versus 5000 temperature thing. Our ACD runs closer to 5,000 whereas our Mitsubishi and NEC run at 6500 -- but just yesterday I knocked the Mitsubishi down to 5,000 for this reason: The quality, opacity and brightness of the gloss offset papers we print on is improving and seem to have a "cooler" feel.

We used to use a "simulate paper white" setting on our SWOP HP DesignJet 130 proofer with EFI Designer RIP -- this would "warm" the paper up to match the older duller sheets and in this case the monitor setting of 6500 worked better. But the newer offset papers, and the Digital inkjet prints we make (for tradeshows, banners, displays, etc) now resemble the cooler, brighter 5,000 setting.

So at this very moment we are trying to figure this out ourselves. We are actually linearizing our printers based on the new cooler papers and then calibrating the printers and monitors to resemble this linearization.

I'll start a thread someday under the Peripherals Forums and will send you a private email if and when we ever get a handle on this question.

It's a great one.

Please share any info you find on this topic with me as well.

We are all very serious over here about using the best combination of technology and knowledge to satisfy our client base.

Thanks,

Dante

[dante@sisna.com]

First off, this is my first post. I registered just to reply to this message after reading for the past few weeks around the boards.

Second, I don't own a Mac. Yet.

Third, I'm a week away from graduating with a BDes degree in Visual Communications.

As a designer starting my own business, I'm looking around to get myself the best possible quality for my money. I've already played with a fair chunk of monitors myself, often frustrated with how color doesn't appear the way I want it to look. How can I impress a client when I print a mock-up that's supposed to show a nice green, but rather shows a puke green? It looks great on screen, but it's lying to me. I couldn't even tell if that dark color is a dark red or a dark brown, where a slight color difference could ruin the look of a website. Color is crucial.

I could care less if an ACD monitor doesn't have any other settings other than brightness. In fact, that's a good thing, it shows how well this monitor can be calibrated and hints that it works well right out of the box. I could care less if it is two years old if it still produce exceptional color quality for its value. If you take a look at the Buyer's Guide, Apple did improve the brightness of the 30" ACD at the end of March.

This monitor is specifically made for serious professionals like myself. If you want it for games, go ahead and get a Dell monitor. I know my gf is getting one soon, and I'm happy for her. As a designer, I can't afford to have any screw-ups, and a slight color or tonal change makes a huge difference. While it might not matter to you, it matters a lot to design professionals. If it can give me what I want to see better than any of the Dells can, then that's what I need.

Amen, my friend: First welcome to Macintosh Fold and Second, Welcome to the Professional World of Video, Graphics, Print, Web and Multimedia Production.

With a Client Centered Attitude (as opposed to ego driven) like yours, you will go far.

There are Many Millions of Professionals out there in our industry and in Dental and Medical Imaging, Aerospace, 3D Modeling, Architecture, Landscaping, Science and Research, etc who make up a very large chuck of Apple's user base. We are the folks who buy the Pro Machines.

Nice to see you understand the importance of the right technology, be it two years old or brand new.

[Jim Campbell]

I seriously doubt that 30&#37; of Apples customers require that intricate level of detail at the pixel level more than the higher contrast ratio, better pixel response time, hundreds of dollars of savings, higher color gamut, more display inputs, monitor movement flexibility, etc etc etc. You and many in this thread are looking for any way on earth to justify Apples shortcomings that are here not because of design flaws, but because of an almost 3 year old design.

You, sir, are a ****ing idiot who knows nothing.

The point you make here shows you up for the troll you are. No-one ... let me say that again - no-one - is forced to buy an Apple display.

Any product is priced at the level of its perceived value: why buy a BMW? A Lada has a petrol engine, a wheel on each corner and will get you from A to B. The difference in this example is that a Beemer exists primarily as a status symbol, whereas a number of very knowledgeable folks have tried to explain the value of Apple monitors' colour accuracy to you.

Let me try it again: It. Just. Works. Nearly ten years ago, my Performa 6400 displayed creditable colour proofs that output to my Epson Photo EX almost identically and came back from the printers indistinguishable from the proofs to the naked eye.

By contrast, the first third-party monitor I had to work on showed me images that bore no ****ing resemblance whatsoever to the printed image.

When you've had to personally apologize to the guy running the press for a **** up that's cost the business thousands then you can tell me that the price saving on a Dell monitor is worthwhile.

Until then, either shut up or get a clue.

Cheers

Jim

[matticus008]

What Dante said was that the Dell was better "for the masses" but then continued to explain that the Apple is better because pros need color accuracy, as if that mattered.
It matters to them. Why can't you get it through your head that you're not supposed to buy the Apple Cinema Display? They're not trying to sell it to you. There are excellent consumer displays available from Samsung and BenQ and Dell. They're cheaper, and they obviously do what you want. Go buy one and enjoy it.
Pros that spend hours with color detail at the pixel level are no where near the majority.
And people with cameras who need Final Cut Studio are nowhere near the majority, either. What's your point? That professionals shouldn't be offered products that suit their needs because they're not in the majority?
My point is that since this monitor is so old, it should not cost this much. Sure it's worth it to a very select few, but that doesn't make it a good value and Apple knows this.
What does age have to do with it? The technology in them is capable of performing at the expected level for professionals; that's all that matters. The ACD has never been, and likely never will be, a good value for consumers. It's not a consumer panel. If you don't think it's worth the price, just buy something else.

Apple's not going to halve the price just to sell the panel to more customers--it's already selling them in satisfactory numbers and it's popular in its intended field. Just like the Mac Pro is not for your average Dell-buying customer, the ACD is not for him or her, either.

[dante@sisna.com]

It. Just. Works. Nearly ten years ago, my Performa 6400 displayed creditable colour proofs that output to my Epson Photo EX almost identically and came back from the printers indistinguishable from the proofs to the naked eye.

By contrast, the first third-party monitor I had to work on showed me images that bore no ****ing resemblance whatsoever to the printed image.

Yes! This is why SWOP Certification from http://www.color.org is so important.

For a great March 2007 General Discussion on a Monitor's Role in Soft Proofing from "Newspapers & Technology" visit this link:

http://www.newsandtech.com/issues/2007/03-07/pt/03-07_virtual-proofing.htm


Pay special attention to this quote: "Many LCDs that are marketed as color-calibrated or color-managed monitors essentially have their own onboard graphics cards that interpret the color data (8-bit) from the application using 10-, or 12-bit LUTs to optimize color and grayscale gradation."

And therein lies the problem of current High Gamut (non-SWOP certified) monitors -- They have wildly unpredictable color consistency due to the interpolation used in the 8bit to internal 10/12bit conversion to high gamut.

When New Technology Catches Up (and Hopefully Apple's High Gamut Release will do so) then it will be able to achieve SWOP certification.

As Jim says, it is all ABOUT OUR CLIENTS!

Twelve years ago I failed in this SWOP certified process, had a client take me to court over color matching and I lost. I refunded $2,700 bucks. That was the last time. Now I have a true color-matched process that is FULLY SWOP Certified. If I ever go to court again I can make my case on the SWOP certification system as govered by graphic arts guild. I would not loose this time. The extra money for a great-deal Apple SWOP certified monitor pays for itself in ONE JOB.

Can't say that with a cheap monitor.

[deadpoet]

Just bought a 20" Cinema Display this morning. I have to say this is by far the best LCD I've ever owned. After calibrating it with my Spyder2, the colour gamut exceeds even that of the EIZO L997 (calibrated) in several axes. Superb stuff.

The only area where my ACD isn't so hot is in distinguishing the darker blacks, but that's a common problem among LCDs. Also, the fact that you can't lower the brightness to very low levels is a bit annoying since I have very sensitive eyes, but I suspect Apple did this to preserve colour accuracy.

I calibrated at lowest brightness and highest brightness and there is only a tiny difference in colour gamuts. Well done!

And I'm seriously sick of the jackasses who troll the Cinema Display threads. I'm a professional web designer who works with photos as well as images and I know exactly what my needs are. The ACD meets my needs very well. And it costs 3x less than the EIZOs that we use at work, so I can't complain. At work, the web team and the digital imaging unit use EIZOs. The graphic designers and curators use ACDs. Everybody is happy.

[MacsAttack]

New prices are a step in the right direction. Now they just need to provide the same level of support that every other manufacturer provides as standard. Or slash at least another £100 off the price.

With Apple I can expect a 1 year warranty under which I have to take a faulty unit to an approved service center and drop it off - wait (weeks) for it to be repaired - then go pick up the unit. Everyone else gives you 3 years (or even 5 years) on-site swap out.

Apple can make their displays as fancy as they want, but with crud support they just don't cut it in the UK market even with these "reduced" prices.

[matticus008]

With Apple I can expect a 1 year warranty under which I have to take a faulty unit to an approved service center and drop it off - wait (weeks) for it to be repaired - then go pick up the unit. Everyone else gives you 3 years (or even 5 years) on-site swap out.
It's simply not reasonable to expect on-site monitor service for American products. Who provides that in the UK, apart from Dell, which has a large presence? For what it's worth, on-site service is rare for individual customers in the US, period. Dell Home customers with standard warranty service have to send in their machines for repair and wait for the return shipment. If you're waiting several weeks for a repair/replacement, that sounds like a problem with your service center (most are independent and unaffiliated with Apple).

However, the silver lining is that you do indeed have a 3-year limited warranty in the UK--it is not as comprehensive as the optional AppleCare, but it is mandated by law.

[enjoyapple]

question is "are we gonna get new ACD soon?" when will that be?
i'm stucked with a bad choice here: buy a 23" or a 30" now or wait till the updates. i'm so tired of waiting but would be quiet pissed of if they bring new ones in a month from here. is that realistic or not?... or will we have to wait till the end of the year to get new displays?...

[vohdoun]

New prices are a step in the right direction. Now they just need to provide the same level of support that every other manufacturer provides as standard. Or slash at least another £100 off the price.

With Apple I can expect a 1 year warranty under which I have to take a faulty unit to an approved service center and drop it off - wait (weeks) for it to be repaired - then go pick up the unit. Everyone else gives you 3 years (or even 5 years) on-site swap out.

Apple can make their displays as fancy as they want, but with crud support they just don't cut it in the UK market even with these "reduced" prices.

Since you're in Scotland, where is the nearest approved Apple Center? Looking up the Apple stores in the UK they are all down in England, and quite frankly thats like 200 - 400 mile drive to London or Sheffield I would not take.

question is "are we gonna get new ACD soon?" when will that be?
i'm stucked with a bad choice here: buy a 23" or a 30" now or wait till the updates. i'm so tired of waiting but would be quiet pissed of if they bring new ones in a month from here. is that realistic or not?... or will we have to wait till the end of the year to get new displays?...

The question is, how cheap are the new displays going to be? If they have touch screen I can see maybe the price doubling... I doubt very much the new models will not be at the current prices.

I have no clue on the rumours that the new displays are suppose to have built in isight or touchscreen, but I've just bought a second display because of that. I am not the least bit interested in a built in isight or touch screen so I decided to make use of these great prices for a second Apple display.

So the thing is what do you really need, and how important is it to you that you need one. To be honest if I were you I'd buy a 30", I thought after two years a 23" would be big enough for me. I'm so use to the 23" it feels so small to me now.

[MacsAttack]

It's simply not reasonable to expect on-site monitor service for American products.

You are joking, right??? American Product? American monitors! German monitors! All same! All made in errr.. China and Korea. Just like all the others.

Just take a stroll through these...

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/productlist.php?groupid=17&catid=510

That is but a small selection as an example. Most manufacturers do indeed provide at least 3 year on site warranty here. Simple fact is that Apple support is just not good in the UK - which considering how much they hike up the prices here is just insulting.

[MacsAttack]

Since you're in Scotland, where is the nearest approved Apple Center? Looking up the Apple stores in the UK they are all down in England, and quite frankly thats like 200 - 400 mile drive to London or Sheffield I would not take.

About 20 miles to an aproved service centre (not an Apple store, a third party company approved by Apple as a service centre).

The drill goes like this... Your Apple monitor packs in. You drive off to the service center and drop off the monitor. They look at it and phone you to say they don't have the part. You wait and hope they only take a few weeks to sort it out. Then you get to drive back and pick the thing up.

Contrast to - Pick up the phone and ring a free phone line. Give the helpful person on the other end your serial number and address. Pack up the dud monitor. Next business day a van pulls up, unloads a box with a working new or refurbished monitor (depends on your luck here) and take the broken one away.

There is an Apple Store supposed to be opening in Glasgow, but once it is open it is still a lot of trouble (and time) to haul a monitor in there if something goes wrong - and no guarentee that it would be fixed any quicker than in the third party centre.

[vohdoun]

About 20 miles to an aproved service centre (not an Apple store, a third party company approved by Apple as a service centre).

The drill goes like this... Your Apple monitor packs in. You drive off to the service center and drop off the monitor. They look at it and phone you to say they don't have the part. You wait and hope they only take a few weeks to sort it out. Then you get to drive back and pick the thing up.

Contrast to - Pick up the phone and ring a free phone line. Give the helpful person on the other end your serial number and address. Pack up the dud monitor. Next business day a van pulls up, unloads a box with a working new or refurbished monitor (depends on your luck here) and take the broken one away.

There is an Apple Store supposed to be opening in Glasgow, but once it is open it is still a lot of trouble (and time) to haul a monitor in there if something goes wrong - and no guarentee that it would be fixed any quicker than in the third party centre.

The same suckiness that everything in the UK suffers from. It seems to be todays practise. We'll get around to it when we feel like and we do not care if you're a business making a living from it, you'll still be treated like a consumer. When we get around to it!

[enjoyapple]

Since you're in Scotland, where is the nearest approved Apple Center? Looking up the Apple stores in the UK they are all down in England, and quite frankly thats like 200 - 400 mile drive to London or Sheffield I would not take.



The question is, how cheap are the new displays going to be? If they have touch screen I can see maybe the price doubling... I doubt very much the new models will not be at the current prices.

I have no clue on the rumours that the new displays are suppose to have built in isight or touchscreen, but I've just bought a second display because of that. I am not the least bit interested in a built in isight or touch screen so I decided to make use of these great prices for a second Apple display.

So the thing is what do you really need, and how important is it to you that you need one. To be honest if I were you I'd buy a 30", I thought after two years a 23" would be big enough for me. I'm so use to the 23" it feels so small to me now.


i'll probably do so after the NAB. a 30 is my dream and my money's been saved for it. it's just that two years ago, when you bought the highest from apple, you were shure that your screen was going to rock for a few years. now's not the same. isights and HDMI would be a great addition even for a 300$ more. i would pay that price. touch screen? i don't really think it's gonna come any sooner but hey, i'd surelly like to be suprise!. a lot do seems that an isight on a 30 ADC wouldn't make any sense and wouldn't be pratical, but hey, a 30" is almost at the same height than an imac 24" which has an built in isight. I'll wait till the NAB and if i do find handcuffs, till WWDC but not much more. it's been a year and a half since i'm waiting for ADC's updates.. i'm just bored i guess. i'm from france and can get the 30 for 1600 euros at the a. store education. not that bad considering it was 2100€ a month ago.
and if the do update on september 07, i could always sell my 30" for a good price. that's what keeps me thinking i should buy one after WWDC if no new products, unless they release a 30" brand new redesigned imac for even a 2500$. keep on dreaming pal! ;)

[lshaner]

I don't think that merely a lowered price should constitute an "update" and a "Buy Now" recommendation.

This is NOT the update that folks have been anticipating.

There is no built-in iSight camera, which is sorely needed for use with Mac Pro and Mac Mini, due to the discontinuation of the standalone iSight.

Also, there is an expectation that Apple will convert to the HDMI standard instead of DVI-D. That'd be another welcome update in the Cinema Display line.

My recommendation is to regard the price drop as newsworthy, but as this is not actually a product update, the Buyer's Guide should not regard it as such and should not recommend a "buy now."

[fairnymph]

I am really hoping this means they are trying to sell off existing stock before releasing an updated ACD, with MORE pixels. I wouldn't mind a smaller screen either, like 17" widescreen. HDMI would be excellent.

I'm wondering if they will release new ACDs at NAB? Seems like a semi-reasonable possibility?

I need them to release a better ACD before (or very near to) leopard bc when I buy my mac pro I will no longer be able to use my SGI 1600sw without buying an expensive adapter.

[matticus008]

You are joking, right??? American Product? American monitors! German monitors! All same! All made in errr.. China and Korea. Just like all the others.
But sold by different companies. It doesn't matter where the monitor was actually built. If you want an American company to service your product, you're lucky you don't have to send it to the United States.

Just take a stroll through these...
Unless "on-site" means something different in the UK, nearly all of those are RMA/cross-shipping warranties. They don't physically come to your house, which is what on-site usually implies over here. You can ship your monitor back to Apple centers in Europe, too, based on my experience. I assumed you meant on-site in the sense that they provide pickup services themselves. If you simply mean that they send a box to your door and not a person, Apple provides that too.

Simple fact is that Apple support is just not good in the UK - which considering how much they hike up the prices here is just insulting.
The price hike is mostly imagined. VAT is required by your government and not by the US, so if you want lower prices, you're going to have to give up all the other benefits of VAT. US advertised prices are about 7&#37; lower than their actual price on average. US purchasing power is also better, by 15-20%, and that's an inevitable market force. All told, there's almost no actual markup on the products.

I'm tired of the myth that UK shoppers are being ripped off by Apple (or by other companies as appropriate for other forums). If they're being "ripped off" at all, it's by their own government and their own economy. &#163;1 buys you less than &#163;1.96 in general, so prices are going to be 15% higher to begin with. VAT will increase prices another 15%. In the end, you're only paying about 4% more in the UK, which is quite reasonable.

[BiikeMike]

I need them to release a better ACD before (or very near to) leopard bc when I buy my mac pro I will no longer be able to use my SGI 1600sw without buying an expensive adapter.


well, you could buy a $175 adapter, or a $1000 display..... :)

[Spanna]

I understand that the Apple monitors are targeted to professional users and I think it's good that Apple provides Pro gear. I just wish that Apple would make a consumer level monitor as well so I could have all apple gear. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants matching equipment and I think Apple's designs are a major reason that people buy Apple products. At the current price the Apple displays just aren't economically feasable to consumers but many people who buy Apple products would cringe at having a third party monitor sitting next to there mac mini or mac book or even there imac.

[bearbo]

dont meant to troll, just beg to understand, so please bear with me

Let me get you started on YOUR comparison. I'll start by explaining to you WHY larger color gamut monitors are not the best for high end Offset and Digital Print production where color match is critical.

This from Monitor God, Karl Lang, the architect of the Sony Artisan, the Radius PressView, ColorMatch, ProSense and many other products. He has worked with display technology both CRT and LCD for the last 15 years.

He says:

snip

********** Now on to those "Front Panel Display Controls" that so many like to tout as making the New Dell's Superior:

snip

*****You can find the full text of Lang's posts and related discussions at:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9613&hl=prosense

My own experience producing high Color Matched Offset Print, Web, Digital Print and Flash Video confirms this.

Our new high gamut HP 30" is great for Video and Web Playback -- but it goes not where near our production workflow.
Dante

the explanation helped me understand a little bit, but i'm still confused at the following points
1. are we saying all HC is bad (provided we dont have true 10-bit/channel), and all non-HC is good? that is there's no real difference between the non-HC displays?
or
even between the non-HC (i guess i'm still comparing dell with acd), there is a difference... that is, dell is inherently unable to display color the way graphic card wants it to (but why? doesn't dell 30 use same panel as acd 30?)
2. is HC only good when the rest of the workflow can transmit the color and print the color? and since apple is coming out with HC eventually, does that mean by then, the dell 30-HC is then somewhat equal, or is it still unable to produce color accurately for some reason (if so, what reason is that)
3. if front control panel is bad, what's the difference between have one and not use it (in dell's case) and not have one(in acd's case)?
4. what's SWOP?

again, i'm just trying to understand these concepts, i'm in the market for a display currently

[fairnymph]

well, you could buy a $175 adapter, or a $1000 display.....
Are you referring to a particular display already on the market, or just saying that's how much you think new, higher res ACDs will cost?

Bc I'm happy with a 17". I just refuse to go down in pixels. But I don't necessarily need a larger monitor. I guess it's doubtul though that in a new line Apple would make any monitors smaller than a 20". :\

[meth]

nice price drops. with student discount on the 23 is 200 less. the refurbished looks to be the same price though IIRC.

i do want the multiple inputs on the ACD. what for? i currently have a samsung 240T which has nasty color calibration(can't get it right for some reason) so i really want the ACD. I have an OS9 G4 i use semi-often, and i just dread the thought of always getting to the back of the monitor that often with my workspace, quality doesn't matter on that computer but does on my main machine. PLUS, i got too used to PIP and would love any future ACD to have PIP. the amount of hours i work, watching the game as i work without having to strain your neck for 10 hours is just priceless. oh well, i can hope, but next revision or not i need the ACD as i can't go on too much longer with the color issues i am having.

[joachim]

Dante – Thanks :)

Bc I'm happy with a 17". I just refuse to go down in pixels. But I don't necessarily need a larger monitor. I guess it's doubtul though that in a new line Apple would make any monitors smaller than a 20". :\

Out of curiosity, why a 17"? I can't work on a monitor that's smaller than a 19", and I find that my productivity increases vastly on larger monitors.

[BiikeMike]

Meth,

I never understood why people need the PIP in a monitor. Why not just stream the game, put the DVD in your computer, etc and run it in a window in OSX? I guess if you want to watch TV that won't work so well, but.... then you really are not getting that much work done anyway :p

[fairnymph]

It's a widescreen 17" (I must have widescreen). I don't know if it's just because I've never had a larger monitor, so I'm unspoiled and don't know what I'm missing and am good at working with what I have, but I've never found desktop or workspace to be a problem with it.

[deadpoet]

i do want the multiple inputs on the ACD. what for? i currently have a samsung 240T which has nasty color calibration(can't get it right for some reason) so i really want the ACD.

You should buy a colorimeter, such as the Eye One Display 2 or similar. Trust me, even with an ACD, you still need a colorimeter to make maximum use of it.

After I calibrated my 20" ACD to 2.2 gamma with 6500K colour temperature using my Spyder2, the available colour gamut increased significantly according to ColorSync.

[vohdoun]

You should buy a colorimeter, such as the Eye One Display 2 or similar. Trust me, even with an ACD, you still need a colorimeter to make maximum use of it.

After I calibrated my 20" ACD to 2.2 gamma with 6500K colour temperature using my Spyder2, the available colour gamut increased significantly according to ColorSync.

I'd love to get one of those but quite frankly I find it too expensive for something you're only going to use once or twice...
Unless I can get one cheaper that does the same job?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/ColorVision-Spyder-Printer-Calibration-Software/dp/B000ES6K34 £115.98

[princealfie]

Yes! This is why SWOP Certification from http://www.color.org is so important.

For a great March 2007 General Discussion on a Monitor's Role in Soft Proofing from "Newspapers & Technology" visit this link:

http://www.newsandtech.com/issues/2007/03-07/pt/03-07_virtual-proofing.htm


Pay special attention to this quote: "Many LCDs that are marketed as color-calibrated or color-managed monitors essentially have their own onboard graphics cards that interpret the color data (8-bit) from the application using 10-, or 12-bit LUTs to optimize color and grayscale gradation."

And therein lies the problem of current High Gamut (non-SWOP certified) monitors -- They have wildly unpredictable color consistency due to the interpolation used in the 8bit to internal 10/12bit conversion to high gamut.

When New Technology Catches Up (and Hopefully Apple's High Gamut Release will do so) then it will be able to achieve SWOP certification.

As Jim says, it is all ABOUT OUR CLIENTS!

Twelve years ago I failed in this SWOP certified process, had a client take me to court over color matching and I lost. I refunded $2,700 bucks. That was the last time. Now I have a true color-matched process that is FULLY SWOP Certified. If I ever go to court again I can make my case on the SWOP certification system as govered by graphic arts guild. I would not loose this time. The extra money for a great-deal Apple SWOP certified monitor pays for itself in ONE JOB.

Can't say that with a cheap monitor.

Thanks for this story. This shows that Dell is more expensive in the long run. If you provide s****** service and products to your clients you will pay multiple times more than you expected from your cheapo Dell-y monitor.

Dell is only good for watching TV and I don't watch much of it either.

[shyrich]

Apple has already taken down the "new prices" image from the displays section of their store. That was fast...

[b0ned0me]

Thanks you all for a very interesting and informative discussion, mixed in among the bickering. I do a little bit of photography as a hobby, and am thinking of getting a new bigger monitor for retouching work, so this was very timely.

As a price comparison, the 23 ACD is £599 in the UK, whereas the same LG.Philips panel is in the Viewsonic VP231WB which seems to go for between £703.82 and £900+ depending on the retailer. Other monitors using that panel are also all much more expensive than the ACD.

Since I can get the M9178 (with the Higher Education discount) for approximately the same price as a Dell 2407WFP, I think I might be going ACD in the near future :cool:

[princealfie]

Thanks you all for a very interesting and informative discussion, mixed in among the bickering. I do a little bit of photography as a hobby, and am thinking of getting a new bigger monitor for retouching work, so this was very timely.

As a price comparison, the 23 ACD is £599 in the UK, whereas the same LG.Philips panel is in the Viewsonic VP231WB which seems to go for between £703.82 and £900+ depending on the retailer. Other monitors using that panel are also all much more expensive than the ACD.

Since I can get the M9178 (with the Higher Education discount) for approximately the same price as a Dell 2407WFP, I think I might be going ACD in the near future :cool:

Good... 4... U :D

[bearbo]

dont meant to troll, just beg to understand, so please bear with me



the explanation helped me understand a little bit, but i'm still confused at the following points
1. are we saying all HC is bad (provided we dont have true 10-bit/channel), and all non-HC is good? that is there's no real difference between the non-HC displays?
or
even between the non-HC (i guess i'm still comparing dell with acd), there is a difference... that is, dell is inherently unable to display color the way graphic card wants it to (but why? doesn't dell 30 use same panel as acd 30?)
2. is HC only good when the rest of the workflow can transmit the color and print the color? and since apple is coming out with HC eventually, does that mean by then, the dell 30-HC is then somewhat equal, or is it still unable to produce color accurately for some reason (if so, what reason is that)
3. if front control panel is bad, what's the difference between have one and not use it (in dell's case) and not have one(in acd's case)?
4. what's SWOP?

again, i'm just trying to understand these concepts, i'm in the market for a display currently

can someone please answer these questions for me?:o

[all2ofme]

Bump!

dante@sisna.com - could you be of help here? Bearbo raises some really good questions, I think.

I'm tossing up between the Eizo CE240W and the 30" ACD. It seems that Apple's colour might not be good as the Eizo's, but the Eizo on the other hand has a much better warranty and (probably because it's smaller) doesn't have some of the off-axis response issues that the 30" had when I looked at it in-store (the left and right edges were slightly mis-coloured when compared to the centre).

Hmmm, pixels or colour? Or is it not that simple? :)

[dante@sisna.com]

can someone please answer these questions for me?:o

Okay, I'll Take a cut at Bearbo's Questions: Give me the evening or Friday morning -- in the middle of a book production project.

I can provide good answers. I'll post them here and will email you both when I post.

Thanks,

Dante

[all2ofme]

Cool - we'll look forward to it. Some feelings around the CE240W and the 30" ACD would be good too :)

[CJD2112]

Perhaps you're confusing Macrumors with your own personal blog. From where I stand, you were trying to draw some sort of comparison to hotel prices, doing it incorrectly, and didn't like that you turned out to be wrong. There are no "A and B" conversations on a forum.

It's more helpful to those who don't understand UK pricing to have accurate information to explain the apparent price increase as you cross the pond. No one was attacking you or acting from any sort of "inherit" need for anything other than accurate information. When you make erroneous statements publicly while trying to explain something, expect it to be corrected. Anything else would be a disservice.

There are those in the world who don't know why Apple products are priced higher abroad. Having the right explanation is an obvious goal here.

Having lived in the U.K., utilizing hotel's in my comparison was for simplicity sake and yes it did make sense, just not to you. The weak value of the dollar v. British Pounds was all I was simply pointing out. So then get the right explanation. In the mean time, House M.D. is on, so I have better things to do. Good luck with that. :rolleyes:

Man, I spent about 15 minutes on www.imdb.com trying to find the movie, but I seem to recall an old 80's movie where a guy built a home computer and it took over his life and wouldn't let him out of his house.

Certainly not the best geek movie in the 80's a la Real Genius or Wierd Science, but hey, when the computer starts watching you..:rolleyes:

LOL Totally know the movie you're talking about, "Electric Dreams" with Virginia Madsen in 1984. SO funny you mentioned that as I was just talking about that with a friend the other day.

Uh, it's NOT about features, it's about the RESULTS that the monitor can deliver you.

Why have all the fancy bells and whistles when you prefer something that works perfectly from out the box?

Exactly :D

[uraniumwilly]

FWIW: I recently bought 2-23" refurbished cinema displays for around $1500 from Apple. I had to return one since it would not come back to life after sleep. The the repaired one is working fine.

[vohdoun]

I wonder what sleeping the computer does to the displays to kill it...

[Bosunsfate]

LOL Totally know the movie you're talking about, "Electric Dreams" with Virginia Madsen in 1984. SO funny you mentioned that as I was just talking about that with a friend the other day.


Thanks CJD for the update as that was exactly the movie I was thinking of...now off to the video store..:D

[Bosunsfate]

Well, I bought the 23" ACD and I love it.

Worth every penny.:)

[bearbo]

Okay, I'll Take a cut at Bearbo's Questions: Give me the evening or Friday morning -- in the middle of a book production project.

I can provide good answers. I'll post them here and will email you both when I post.

Thanks,

Dante

i'm looking forward to hear from you:)

[jesteraver]

Where is the new displays? I just hope by October the will have new ACD out.

[vohdoun]

Where is the new displays? I just hope by October the will have new ACD out.

It's rather obvious, they'll launch them with the new Mac Pro design. :)

[jesteraver]

It's rather obvious, they'll launch them with the new Mac Pro design. :)

which is when ??? October ... please be october

[c.joe.go]

why october? just because of leopard?
it is more likely that you will have to wait for jan of 08. not to burst bubbles.

[jesteraver]

one thing i can say about Apple they are like Lexus takes them 2x the amount of time to remodel something. I love the products but takes too long :mad:

[all2ofme]

Well it'll be interesting to see what happens given Steve's comments around releasing LED displays this year...

Dante, you still there? :)

[bearbo]

Dante, you still there? :)

Exactly my thought. He still own me an explanation. ;)

[timmillwood]

I need a 30" display within the next 2 months so I hope the new LED ones are out at WWDC

I will be gutted if i can't get an LED one.

[mjstew33]

one thing i can say about Apple they are like Lexus takes them 2x the amount of time to remodel something. I love the products but takes too long :mad:

Agreed.

But I don't mind it... :)

[dante@sisna.com]

Exactly my thought. He still own me an explanation. ;)

Yes, I am still here: just buried in books (I am a book producer).

I have been following these LED developments and have some thoughts.

I will try to get a long "thought-piece" amidst my projects -- My clients are on my as* -- gotta produce

Sorry to drop out.

Dante

[all2ofme]

Know the feeling! Good luck with the work and we'll hear from you when you're out from under it :)

[all2ofme]

Apologies for the thread resurrection :)

I really, really wish that there were some new ACDs now - I've got a 10% discount card and money burning a hole in my pocket. Was hoping for something at WWDC.

Anyone got any tasty rumours for me to feed my brain on? Or alternative 30" displays that'd be great for an Aperture > Photoshop > print workflow, p'raps?

[BiikeMike]

Apologies for the thread resurrection :)

I really, really wish that there were some new ACDs now - I've got a 10% discount card and money burning a hole in my pocket. Was hoping for something at WWDC.

Anyone got any tasty rumours for me to feed my brain on? Or alternative 30" displays that'd be great for an Aperture > Photoshop > print workflow, p'raps?

Why an alternative?? I just picked up a 30"ACD about a 2 months ago, and let me tell you, you WILL NOT be dissapointed!

[all2ofme]

In short - I know I'd love the current one, but I'd imagine I'd love the upcoming one more :)

A few possible reasons:


The new one will almost certainly be better :D
Better off-axis response - seemed when I used one in the Apple Store here that unless you were a good distance away there was a fair bit of colour shift on the sides (they *are* a long way away...)
Screen uniformity (self-calibrating like the Eizos would be great)
Deeper blacks
Better contrast ratio


It'd also be great to have it be a nicer screen for movie watching than my current ACD (a 20" plastic framed one), which doesn't do that well in dark sequences. I don't know whether such a screen exists - maybe I'm dreaming - but it'd be great if it did. Here's hoping!

[siurpeeman]

Apologies for the thread resurrection :)

I really, really wish that there were some new ACDs now - I've got a 10% discount card and money burning a hole in my pocket. Was hoping for something at WWDC.

Anyone got any tasty rumours for me to feed my brain on? Or alternative 30" displays that'd be great for an Aperture > Photoshop > print workflow, p'raps?

if i were to guess, i'd say apple won't release a lineup of cinema displays until it can get them to be led-backlit. and i don't think that will happen until sometime in 2008. again, just a guess.

[Mundy]

if i were to guess, i'd say apple won't release a lineup of cinema displays until it can get them to be led-backlit. and i don't think that will happen until sometime in 2008. again, just a guess.

I doubt Apple will wait that long. They really need to sell a stand-alone monitor with built-in iSight if their customers are going to be able to take advantage of all the cool news features in the upcoming version of iChat.

[Squonk]

if i were to guess, i'd say apple won't release a lineup of cinema displays until it can get them to be led-backlit. and i don't think that will happen until sometime in 2008. again, just a guess.

I agree that Apple will certainly want to move to all LED back lighting, but no updates until then? Yeow, that's a long time. However, from a technology perspective, are the ACD's "old" technology at this point? Sure, I'd like to have all of the connections of some of the Dell screens, but otherwise I'm not so sure they need an update. Please correct me if this is not the case.:)

[killerrobot]

Why is Europe getting short-changed here? No Octo-Macs, no reduced prices on the screens... What gives?

You act like this is something new on the part of Apple!?

[siurpeeman]

I agree that Apple will certainly want to move to all LED back lighting, but no updates until then? Yeow, that's a long time. However, from a technology perspective, are the ACD's "old" technology at this point? Sure, I'd like to have all of the connections of some of the Dell screens, but otherwise I'm not so sure they need an update. Please correct me if this is not the case.:)

the next time apple updates their display line, another update won't follow for several more years to come. so it only makes sense for apple to want to include led backlighting in their next round of updates. if you remember back to apple's "a greener apple" statement, it read:

To eliminate mercury in our displays, we need to transition from fluorescent lamps to light-emitting diodes (LEDs) to illuminate the displays. Fortunately, all iPod displays already use LEDs for illumination, and therefore contain no mercury. We plan to introduce our first Macs with LED backlight technology in 2007. Our ability to completely eliminate fluorescent lamps in all of our displays depends on how fast the LCD industry can transition to LED backlighting for larger displays.

Apple plans to completely eliminate the use of arsenic in all of its displays by the end of 2008.

Apple plans to reduce and eventually eliminate the use of mercury by transitioning to LED backlighting for all displays when technically and economically feasible.

so again, i don't think displays will be updated until they're led-backlit, and i'm guessing that'll happen some time in 2008.

[Squonk]

the next time apple updates their display line, another update won't follow for several more years to come. so it only makes sense for apple to want to include led backlighting in their next round of updates. if you remember back to apple's "a greener apple" statement, it read:

so again, i don't think displays will be updated until they're led-backlit, and i'm guessing that'll happen some time in 2008.

Sure, I could see that. Wow, a 30" w/LCD backlighting... :cool:

[all2ofme]

Oh, the waiting - the waiting! I want one now :)

It looks increasingly as if it won't be anytime soon, though, doesn't it?

I've read varying reports about companies not moving their large LCDs to LED backlights because of the recent price drops on the older tech - and there just aren't any large LED-lit screens anywhere on the market that I've seen. The biggest is the NEC LCD2180WG-LED-BK 21 inch at a whopping $6k.

That leaves:

a) the panels they're using currently, which by most accounts are excellent for colour-critical work but less so for video
b) newer panels like the one that the HP 3065 and Dell 3007 HC use and which have the opposite pros and cons to a)
c) panels that I've not seen in use anywhere, which'd be either really, really expensive, or just plain not available until much later. There's only the 20"

And if those are the options on the table at the moment I guess I'd spring for a). Which I could have done months ago. What a tit!

Anyone know any more about the current crop of screens and what might be coming from other manufacturers that are more forthcoming about new products?

[hi-there]

Anyone know any more about the current crop of screens and what might be coming from other manufacturers that are more forthcoming about new products?

I believe Samsung is releasing 30" display that is LED backlit BUT it is in 4:3 format (Yuk!) : ) But it has 3000:1 contract ratio! Wow!

I too am waiting for the ACD 30" update. I think I also read that Apple is planning a 40" display to take the new flag ship model position. Maybe I will just buy one now and get rid of it when the new model comes out since no body knows when that will be... 1 week or 6 months.

[all2ofme]

Well I caved in and bought one on Friday.

I got the store to set one up so that I could check it, and I'm glad I did, because the first one had five dead pixels and a darker cast on the left-hand side. The second one was absolutely perfect once it had warmed up. It looks absolutely enormous at home - it couldn't have been any bigger.

It'll do me a while now - and it'd need to be an incredible step up to get me to go through the hassle of moving this one on in order to get something else.

I'm not convinced there'll be anything LED based until the end of next year, anyway, so this is a good half-way house.

Happy camper! :)

[stagi]

I just wish they would have a higher contrast ratio and a little lower in price. I need another monitor very soon, and the dell 24" priced at $599 it looking like a great deal compared to the 23" ACD at $899 is a big difference. Being a small business owner $300 makes a difference, even though I would rather give apple my money :confused:

[qamaro]

Actually that rumor of the Samsung being 4:3 is wrong they have a widescreen version of that LED 30" display. Here is the article with the specs: http://aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?mode=read&c_num=35011&C_Code=09&mn_name=news

:eek:

Q

[all2ofme]

FWIW I've read quite a bit about that Dell in particular not being much cop for photography work. DPreview has some good posts in the forum if you have a search.

Dante has posted some enlightening material in this thread, too.

I just wish they would have a higher contrast ratio and a little lower in price. I need another monitor very soon, and the dell 24" priced at $599 it looking like a great deal compared to the 23" ACD at $899 is a big difference. Being a small business owner $300 makes a difference, even though I would rather give apple my money :confused:

[stagi]

Thanks for the heads up all2ofme, looks like some good info on dpreview. I think i will go with one of the ACD 23", looks to be better for color sensitive material and matching prints.

[Hmac]

The 30 -inch Apple Cinema Display is $1729 at B&H Photovideo, free shipping and they don't charge sales tax (unless you live in New York). I just bought two of them. Boy, those suckers do radiate the heat.

B&H is as reliable a store as you can get in my extensive experience with them, and based on their reviews at http://resellerratings.com. They're rated substantially higher than MacConnection, for example. They package the sealed Apple box inside another big box with peanuts or those little air bags -- IOW, they do their utmost to make the shipping UPS-proof. Customer Service tends to be New York-brusque, but they always get the job done.

[vohdoun]

I too am waiting for the ACD 30" update. I think I also read that Apple is planning a 40" display to take the new flag ship model position. Maybe I will just buy one now and get rid of it when the new model comes out since no body knows when that will be... 1 week or 6 months.

O_O, Wonder what resolution a 40" will be if its to be a true desktop. Not a TV.


Well I caved in and bought one on Friday.

I got the store to set one up so that I could check it, and I'm glad I did, because the first one had five dead pixels and a darker cast on the left-hand side. The second one was absolutely perfect once it had warmed up. It looks absolutely enormous at home - it couldn't have been any bigger.

It'll do me a while now - and it'd need to be an incredible step up to get me to go through the hassle of moving this one on in order to get something else.

I'm not convinced there'll be anything LED based until the end of next year, anyway, so this is a good half-way house.

Happy camper! :)

Yeah, I love it. A dual setup of 30" + 23" ACD. Best purchase I've ever made. Plus I don't plan to get anything for quite sometime either. Applecare covers it to May 2010.
Do you ever find it a bit over powering at times? I have to use certain subtle backgrounds to tone down the brightness, even though its at 0.

I just wish they would have a higher contrast ratio and a little lower in price. I need another monitor very soon, and the dell 24" priced at $599 it looking like a great deal compared to the 23" ACD at $899 is a big difference. Being a small business owner $300 makes a difference, even though I would rather give apple my money :confused:

I don't know, but personally I still find 700:1 quite bright. My Dell is 1000:1 and it hurts my eyes even though its at 0 brightness, same goes for the 30" ACD.

[CJD2112]

I still can't believe this is the least updated product in the Apple line. It's been years since a serious revamp, while the iMac has seen numerous updates, as well as the Pro and iPod line, and the laptops. It'd be nice to see a built in IR sensor to go with the Mac Pro so us Mac Pro owners could finally use Front Row (I find it extremely annoying that the most expensive system Apple sells isn't capable of a simple program that even the Mac Mini has access to). Maybe even built-in iSights, something, anything.... :(

[Decrepit]

I still can't believe this is the least updated product in the Apple line. It's been years since a serious revamp, while the iMac has seen numerous updates, as well as the Pro and iPod line, and the laptops. It'd be nice to see a built in IR sensor to go with the Mac Pro so us Mac Pro owners could finally use Front Row (I find it extremely annoying that the most expensive system Apple sells isn't capable of a simple program that even the Mac Mini has access to). Maybe even built-in iSights, something, anything.... :(

I'm hoping for an updated set of Apple Cinema Displays as well. I have a DVI KVM hooked to my Mini, my gaming rig, and my notebook, so I can only use a 24" display. That's what I'm holding out for.

As a Mini owner, I have the same problem you do with the lack of iSight, etc.

I'm hoping that Apple will show them off for Leopard, saying that they have a great new visual interface in the OS, why not put out some new displays that show it off.

One can dream...

[zombitronic]

Hey! Five hundred days exactly since the last "update." And only 1,510 days since the 30" display was introduced. Awesome.

[Xander562]

Hey! Five hundred days exactly since the last "update." And only 1,510 days since the 30" display was introduced. Awesome.

I hate you.

[iTeen]

Holy thread revival batman!!!!
;)

For a second I actually thought they dropped the prices as of today.

[Xander562]

Holy thread revival batman!!!!
;)

For a second I actually thought they dropped the prices as of today.

Same here. :(:o

[cube]

Pfff. 3007WFP-HC costs $1200.

[MonksMac]

Me too. Then I looked at the main page. :apple:

[Tallest Skil]

Hey! Five hundred days exactly since the last "update." And only 1,510 days since the 30" display was introduced. Awesome.

How about you not revive year-old threads, thanks.