More Apple TV Models, Future Apple TV Software Hints

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Speculation is rising that Apple may have more models of the Apple TV waiting in the wings after it was noted that the way Apple sells the unit on its online store is more typical of a product with multiple models than a single-model product (first noted by AppleTVHacks.com (http://www.appletvhacks.net/2007/04/04/apple-planning-additional-apple-tv-models/)).

Apple's online store has become a hotbed of rumors, with a recent leak apparently predicting the arrival of 8-core Mac Pros.

Meanwhile, LoopRumors claims to have some inside information on an upcoming update to the Apple TV software (http://www.looprumors.com/article.php?apple-tv-future-features,3117649394). Future features are said to include widget-like utilities (such as weather forecasts, news, game day scores, and RSS feed headlines). LoopRumors continues to have a checkered rumor accuracy record.

[longofest]

So, LoopRumors:

They NAILED the "lite OS X" rumor. They have also had a few not so good claims as well (Leopard on March 24th (http://www.looprumors.com/article.php?exclusive-leopard-saturday-march-24th,1921312928) seemed to be speculation). Their recent HD Mac Pro at NAB rumor (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/20/hd-mac-pros-at-nab/) also looks a little doubtful given the recent Mac Pro update (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/04/04/apple-releases-8-core-mac-pro/).

Still, don't totally throw out their reliability. Take some salt when reading their rumor, most definitely, but don't just throw them out the window.

Note: we have also been off the mark (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/12/leopard-to-pounce-in-mid-late-april/) on the Leopard release date as well, but we didn't trumpet it nearly as loudly. In fact, we were very careful to put a big disclaimer:

"While the sources are anonymous and cannot be confirmed at this time by other known and traditionally reliable means, agreement from such a variety of sources is rare. Still, Leopard's release has been prone to much hype and speculation, and we hesitate to place too much hope in such rumors (yet)."

[aspro]

I wonder how they would split the AppleTV into multiple models… bigger hard drive is the only thing I can really come up with.

[Di9it8]

I wonder how they would split the AppleTV into multiple models… bigger hard drive is the only thing I can really come up with.
What about a couple of receivers in the box, to compete with Elgato??:D

[nagromme]

BTW, that "Select Your Apple TV" text is a graphic, not HTML. It might be human error of some kind, but it's no simple typo. (The alt tag reads simply "Image"--good thing I don't have impaired vision!)

Given the simple functionality of the device, multiple models does seem likely to refer to capacity, as with iPods. (The thing is basically a specialized iPod after all.)

Entirely new functions like DVR could be added, but that's not what Apple TV is about--Apple TV is moving towards some future goal based on iTunes, not rabbit ears. (Me, I like my rabbit ears + EyeTV.)

Optional accessories--USB controller for casual games?--could be bundled to add value to a higher model. Or maybe that's just EA's wishful thinking.

[Abstract]

So, LoopRumors:

They NAILED the "lite OS X" rumor.

So? Was anyone else expecting a full-blown version of OSX on the iPhone? On the other end, was anyone expecting software that resembled some of the shoddy UIs currently in existence? I think they just nailed something we all nailed.

And this rumour......that there will be more features introduced with Apple TV in the future......is this not obvious as well? I would have certainly pegged widgets as being a part of a future version of Apple TV. Due to the games as some already have.

[vendettabass]

slingbox functionality would be swa-eet!

[longofest]

So? Was anyone else expecting a full-blown version of OSX on the iPhone? On the other end, was anyone expecting software that resembled some of the shoddy UIs currently in existence? I think they just nailed something we all nailed.

Some people (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1888) were looking in the iPod firmware to look for signs of the iPhone. No one but LoopRumors claimed so specifically that it would be a derivative of OS X that the iPhone would run on.

[Chris Bangle]

the reason i bought a wii was because there were no extra features to appletv @ macworld. If they do release internet on it and possibly access to ure mac in your living room, ie it replicates your desktop then im definatly buying. eg leopard in your living room

[Passante]

I almost never participate in telephone surveys but some marketing firm called last night asking if I would participate in a 10 minute survey for AppleTV so I did. They were interested in how AppleTV was being used (music vs photo vs movies) how it was connected (cables), how full the hard drive was, what remote was I using, what type of TV and resolution it was connected to and finally what one thing would I change about Apple TV. I was torn between having music streaming capability and a larger hard drive. When I told the surveyor a larger hard drive he said I was the 4th person he spoke to who said that.

It will be interesting to see how Apple TV will evolve based on customer feed back.

[Jarcrew]

If they bumped the hard drive space I would almost certainly pick one of those bad boys up - I wouldn't be surprised if, come the end of the year, we've got the current AppleTV at £150 and a newer, bigger model at the current £200 pricepoint, say 80GB. It's kind of strange that the top level iPod only costs £50 more, yet has double the hard drive space in a box a quarter of the size.

[afd]

I wonder how they would split the AppleTV into multiple models… bigger hard drive is the only thing I can really come up with.

As someone with an old telly, and no sign of a new HD one coming to our house in the near future:( I'd go for composite video. There are probably plenty of people that might want to put them with a older TV in a bedroom or kitchen too.
Only having HDMI or component connectors rules out the majority of TVs. Nobody I know has an HD TV.
A tuner or 2 would also be useful.

[Max Payne]

Good. Now I have something to wait for besides Leopard.

[PlaceofDis]

i think there are some interesting ways for the :apple: TV to grow, and certainly they could sell different models.

they could make a SDTV version for one...
they could play around with the Hard Drive sizes.
they could make an "Extreme" unit with more features and functionality (ie serves as a basestation too, etc.)

[alfismoney]

I wonder how they would split the AppleTV into multiple models… bigger hard drive is the only thing I can really come up with.

Support for 1080p would be a good place to start, a nice follow on would be practical support for MPEG-2 and other formats. You know, things that would justify buying a high definition device. Right now Apple charges an awful lot for a box that really doesn't do much.

[mainstreetmark]

i think there are some interesting ways for the :apple: TV to grow, and certainly they could sell different models.

they could make a SDTV version for one...
they could play around with the Hard Drive sizes.
they could make an "Extreme" unit with more features and functionality (ie serves as a basestation too, etc.)

...they could allow external USBs (since they already have a plug)
...they could make it an Airtunes compatible unit (which I am just amazed they didn't. Now, if you want to play music from your computer, you gotta also buy an Airport Express)

[~Shard~]

This doesn't surprise me in the least. I know ATV has a great future ahead of itself and a lot of potential. This version is simply the inaugural one and is merely a stepping stone to bigger and better things. After all, look what people are already accomplishing via hacks to the current model!

All that being said, unless I can play non-iTMS content with ease (and without needing a hack) I will not be purchasing one. :cool:

[n-abounds]

Has the :apple: tv been selling well?

Might give some indication whether there will be future upgrades as well... ;)

[Motley]

What about a couple of receivers in the box, to compete with Elgato??:D

Do that and let me plug it into my old obsolete tv's and I'm sold

[netdog]

I kind of doubt that Apple is going to complicate this sector of offerings. The AppleTV actually works great as it is, and attachements will come via their interesting USB port and through the addition of more codecs over time, probably including the DivX codec that was put on Apple Quicktime Codec page today.

[belovedmonster]

Switching to your computer desktop from the living room = what I want

That would be really sweet. I dont want to buy a Mac Mini for my living room just so I can check my email during the advert breaks or whatever general computing crap I might wanna do in the living room. Being able to control your main Mac from any number of rooms using Apple TVs would be cool.

[Avatar74]

Support for 1080p would be a good place to start, a nice follow on would be practical support for MPEG-2 and other formats. You know, things that would justify buying a high definition device. Right now Apple charges an awful lot for a box that really doesn't do much.

The expenditures associated with manufacturing 1080p capable hardware, and the rise in cost passed to the consumer might not pay off until 802.11n standardizes. As Netgear is sadly discovering... their ill-equipped EVA8000's big selling point over AppleTV was 1080p but the unit can only do 802.11g... so the unit is essentially worthless because it cannot reliably do the one thing they banked everything on.

Apple's wisely playing it safe by guaranteeing 720p only over n networks even though many users including myself report doing 720p just fine over 802.11g.

When 802.11n passes the final revision into full ratification and as users start adopting N network hardware, content is ready and broadband adoption has increased further there'll be a basis for the fixed cost associated with launching AppleTV units that can support 1080p... but right now I think the very small market would not recover Apple's fixed costs on such a bet.

One step at a time... Apple still needs to get at least DVD-quality content on iTunes Store before they try tackling even 720p, much less 1080p whose bandwidth and processing requirements are tremendous compared to even 720p.

[Digitalclips]

Support for 1080p would be a good place to start, a nice follow on would be practical support for MPEG-2 and other formats. You know, things that would justify buying a high definition device. Right now Apple charges an awful lot for a box that really doesn't do much.

It would be lovely if it had a 500 GIG drive to hold 1080p but then I ask ... where would you get the 1080p (or even 1080i) material from? Other than making your own from existing HD material from a camera. You could if you could RIP commercial HD DVDs (any format) I guess but the size would be huge and why bother if you have a player anyway?

Heck you can't even get 720p at the moment (if you can tell me how). I shudder to think people might be making 720p out of SD!

But 1080p.. are you expecting iTunes to have that?

No doubt several years from now when the internet is 100 Gbs this will be the case but for now I am confused how this would be useful, please explain... Thanks

[Sebas00]

I'm not bying the AppleTV if it cannot replace at least one box on my shelves. I'm sure they can replace the that freaking DVD.:mad: ;)

[syklee26]

if they add wireless router functionality, then I am in.

[GregA]

I wonder how they would split the AppleTV into multiple models… bigger hard drive is the only thing I can really come up with.

It's an interesting question - not because there're not plenty of ways to expand, but because it's difficult to keep with the "SIMPLE" philosophy and expand at the same time.

For instance - it'd be really easy to release a MacMini with HDMI/Component out. Based on today's specs - double the price gets you bigger hard disk and ram, 4 times the processing speed (but integrated graphics), and a DVD drive - is that worth it to most people? The posters who seem to like that idea are wanting it for its expandability and to double as a computer, not for is native functionality.

And alot of other functionality doesn't really need a different AppleTV, just a software upgrade. eg: Web access, 5.1 sound, external USB hard disk, DivX support, widgets, iTunes purchasing, remote desktop.

Another way of looking at it... if there are a range of AppleTVs, where does the existing one sit in that range? Is it the high end like the widescreen iPod, or is it the "regular iPod", the Nano, or the Shuffle?

I'm going to approach it from the angle that the AppleTV will attempt to displace ONE other home theatre component. And for now, I think that's the DVD player. So my bet - AppleTV 2 with bigger hard disk & dvd player.

[MongoTheGeek]

I see where they are going with this. Imagine getting you AppleTV setup. Pick out a class of news stories yo are interested in. Weather for your local location, maybe a 5 minute funny podcast. It gets loaded up automatically over night and then when you get up in the morning you turn it on and hit play. Instead of waiting 30 minutes for the local news to recycle you get it right away.

Its the ultimate in cable on demand

[Avatar74]

I'm not bying the AppleTV if it cannot replace at least one box on my shelves. I'm sure they can replace the that freaking DVD.:mad: ;)

It did replace one box on my shelf... It replaced my AirPort Express. :D

I'm already watching some movies from my DVD collection over AppleTV... but my holdbacks are two things:

1. Waiting for Dolby Digital support. Still have to use my upsampling DVD player for this.

2. For music, everything is upsampled or downsampled to 16-bit, 44.1kHz stereo PCM... this leaves me with DVD for listening to 24-bit/48kHz Linear PCM tracks.

[Sebas00]

if they add wireless router functionality, then I am in.

That too, would be great but I doubt they would do that. That'll be on less product to sell. But thinking of it, it will have made more sense.

[Avatar74]

if they add wireless router functionality, then I am in.

So you want to tax the bandwidth of the AppleTV with other wireless traffic so you don't have a clean RF transmission whose full bandwidth is dedicated to streaming video and audio to your home theater?

My rule of thumb is that it's better to have a device that does one thing exceptionally well than a device that does fifteen things poorly.

[Digitalclips]

Meanwhile, LoopRumors claims to have some inside information on an [url="http://www.looprumors.com/article.php?apple-tv-future-features,3117649394"]upcoming update to the Apple TV software

I just hope Apple don't issue an update that removes the ability to do the home hacks that have been so widely discussed. If they did release a Mk II ATV with hardware changes and software mods that make it hack proof I guess the Mk I will become collector's items!

I'll answer my own point and say i don't think for one second Apple didn't know exactly what they were doing making ATV such an open experiment. I guess we will see major new software features from Apple which is exactly why I am not messing with my ATV's software. I do need a much larger drive already though. I am seeing the need for about 200 GIGs for my entire iTunes library excluding Aperture already. Make that 500 GIGs with Aperture and with more movies to come AND 720p ... TB for sure.

[Sebas00]

It did replace one box on my shelf... It replaced my AirPort Express. :D

I'm already watching some movies from my DVD collection over AppleTV... but my holdbacks are two things:

1. Waiting for Dolby Digital support. Still have to use my upsampling DVD player for this.

2. For music, everything is upsampled or downsampled to 16-bit, 44.1kHz stereo PCM... this leaves me with DVD for listening to 24-bit/48kHz Linear PCM tracks.

Well, I don't have an airport express, only extreeme. But The aiport express doesn't take space on your shelves since it uses an outlet. Plus, I don't think the movie quality can replace the DVD Yet. So, until then, they could add a DVD slot for my netflix viewing.;)

[Digitalclips]

So you want to tax the bandwidth of the AppleTV with other wireless traffic so you don't have a clean RF transmission whose full bandwidth is dedicated to streaming video and audio to your home theater?

My rule of thumb is that it's better to have a device that does one thing exceptionally well than a device that does fifteen things poorly.

Agreed, leave that kind of design concept to Microsoft :)

[Sebas00]

So you want to tax the bandwidth of the AppleTV with other wireless traffic so you don't have a clean RF transmission whose full bandwidth is dedicated to streaming video and audio to your home theater?

My rule of thumb is that it's better to have a device that does one thing exceptionally well than a device that does fifteen things poorly.

Well if the Apple TV connects directly to the TV or AV System, I don't see how having DVD or Cablebox programing and recording will take from the Bandwith.
The only things you'll be streaming, are music and movies from Itune library.
Oops! pictures tooo.

[mtrctyjoe]

the reason i bought a wii was because there were no extra features to appletv @ macworld. If they do release internet on it and possibly access to ure mac in your living room, ie it replicates your desktop then im definatly buying. eg leopard in your living room

Give me a Window to my MAC ..... that I what I thought this was going to be. Make it that.... and I am in!

[peharri]

I wonder how they would split the AppleTV into multiple models… bigger hard drive is the only thing I can really come up with.

Not directly, the HD is currently not being used in any way that the end user would be forced to think about in terms of capacity.

The most obvious is to add more capabilities. An integrated DVD reader would be one of the most obvious enhancements I can think of, coupled perhaps with an integrated 5.1 channel audio system. Neither would add much complexity to the product, but both would be desirable as the public's desire for thousands of boxes underneath the TV has been overestimated of late.

I don't see them doing the DVR thing, yet. CableCARD is the only plug-and-play way of integrating a video user device with an arbitrary cable or satellite connection, and the alternative means essentially building a whole suite of different AppleTVs for different cable or satellite providers. But CableCARD hasn't really caught on. Even with a federal mandate in the US, hardly anyone has heard of the thing.

[Avatar74]

Well if the Apple TV connects directly to the TV or AV System, I don't see how having DVD or Cablebox programing and recording will take from the Bandwith.
The only things you'll be streaming, are music and movies from Itune library.
Oops! pictures tooo.

Right now nothing else taxes the bandwidth of the AppleTV except the content you run over it. In that regard you can find success streaming 720p even over an 802.11g network... which is not supported openly by Apple because they probably found it only barely works in the most optimal conditions.

Now, if as Syklee stated you want to see wireless router functionality to it... You're adding other network traffic onto that wireless access point. Whatever other devices you're using apart from AppleTV, using AppleTV as a wireless router reduces the bandwidth available for whatever music and video streaming you do plan to do... and it introduces a potentially unpredictable element into the mix whereby you don't have one uniform, controllable, rate-capped set of bitstream protocols (5Mbps video, 160Kbps AAC for video, 320Kbps AAC for music, etc.) capped by one application (iTunes)... and then you've got all manner of traffic that can spur dips and spikes and result in random, unpredictable interference to your TV or music experience.

Then there's routing, which will tax the CPU that currently is pretty much dedicated to the AppleTV User Interface and controlling/directing some of the background processing tasks that serve the content to your A/V components. That will almost certainly increase the heat generated from the CPU and at some point require louder active ventilation which will be a nuisance for watching movies.

Then add to that you'll have to have the DSL or cable modem in the living room and cables connecting the two. This completely defeats the idea behind the AppleTV which was to facilitate a media center type application without all the clutter of a PC parked next to your home entertainment center.

Maybe Microsoft would do this... But it's anathema to Apple's sense of industrial design.

[marting]

Apple's online store has become a hotbed of rumors, with a recent leak apparently predicting the arrival of 8-core Mac Pros.


Apple's online store has become a hotbed of rumors, with a recent leak correctly (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/04/04/apple-releases-8-core-mac-pro/) predicting the arrival of 8-core Mac Pros.

[sishaw]

I wonder how they would split the AppleTV into multiple models… bigger hard drive is the only thing I can really come up with.

Combine it with a DVD player. DVD for your Netflix movies, Apple TV for your iTunes shows.

[syklee26]

Right now nothing else taxes the bandwidth of the AppleTV except the content you run over it. In that regard you can find success streaming 720p even over an 802.11g network... which is not supported openly by Apple because they probably found it only barely works in the most optimal conditions.

Now, if as Syklee stated you want to see wireless router functionality to it... You're adding other network traffic onto that wireless access point. Whatever other devices you're using apart from AppleTV, using AppleTV as a wireless router reduces the bandwidth available for whatever music and video streaming you do plan to do... and it introduces a potentially unpredictable element into the mix whereby you don't have one uniform, controllable, rate-capped set of bitstream protocols (5Mbps video, 160Kbps AAC for video, 320Kbps AAC for music, etc.) capped by one application (iTunes)... and then you've got all manner of traffic that can spur dips and spikes and result in random, unpredictable interference to your TV or music experience.

Then there's routing, which will tax the CPU that currently is pretty much dedicated to the AppleTV User Interface and controlling/directing some of the background processing tasks that serve the content to your A/V components. That will almost certainly increase the heat generated from the CPU and at some point require louder active ventilation which will be a nuisance for watching movies.

Then add to that you'll have to have the DSL or cable modem in the living room and cables connecting the two. This completely defeats the idea behind the AppleTV which was to facilitate a media center type application without all the clutter of a PC parked next to your home entertainment center.

Maybe Microsoft would do this... But it's anathema to Apple's sense of industrial design.



well r u suggesting that people will surf the web and watch Movie at the same time? I believe when movie is being streamed, network traffic will likely be minimal.

[alfismoney]

But 1080p.. are you expecting iTunes to have that?

No doubt several years from now when the internet is 100 Gbs this will be the case but for now I am confused how this would be useful, please explain... Thanks

Yes, actually, I do expect iTunes to have that. I can download movie trailers from Apple in 1080p, I can get a home video camera to shoot in 1080p, I can easily obtain full length movies in 1080p, and I can play video games in 1080p. I stopped buying DVDs 3 years ago because it just doesn't offer the quality I want in a viewing experience, there's no way I'm going to waste my time with downloads or hardware selling today that can't do what BluRay and HD DVD offer. It's about as unacceptable as television manufacturers selling '1080p' screens that aren't 1920x1080 native.

Believe me, I'm an editor, I know that there is a huge amount of bandwidth and storage overhead involved in this. I also know that I can buy a TB of external disk for under $300 these days. With wireless n built into the current Apple TV, I don't see why I shouldn't be able to watch content in a superior format. You can go on all day about the engineering hurdles, fact is that other companies are already doing it and I think 720p looks very weak in comparison. I know I'm in the minority on this but I'll just sit on my hands and wait until Apple really releases something special.

[orb]

I think the box desperately needs a DVD option, especially a blu-ray option. Without that, I can't replace my mac mini. I'm sure others wouldn't mind replacing a dvd player. (again, especially for a blu-ray player) I've got no problem with it being an optional add on for people who really like having lots of boxes, but that would be the #1 request for me.

[Avatar74]

well r u suggesting that people will surf the web and watch Movie at the same time? I believe when movie is being streamed, network traffic will likely be minimal.

I think you're assuming that everyone will use the network as you do... one device at a time?

But what about the household with three computers, kids, and while someone's watching TV the others are on their computers?

Or maybe you've got a machine uploading/downloading in the background for several hours while you go and watch TV... I certainly do, and a combo AppleTV/wireless router would be a HUGE annoyance for me... nevermind the other design factors I mentioned.

Also, I have a DSL router. I have a huge number of AV cables running around behind my home theater components... I have reduced the number by using entirely optical transmission for audio BUT there's still a tremendous number of coaxial RG-6, RCA and other cables back there and DSL is particularly susceptible to EM/RF crosstalk. Even with the commonly deployed RADSL that uses a spread spectrum for downstream bandwidth, the potential for bandwidth reduction from RF interference is pretty high.

I used to troubleshoot escalations and had one case where cabling from nearby AM and maritime radio antennas caused RF bleed into the DSL signal, inhibiting bandwidth severely.

I would not want to place my DSL router anywhere near my home theater.

[Digitalclips]

Yes, actually, I do expect iTunes to have that. I can download movie trailers from Apple in 1080p, I can get a home video camera to shoot in 1080p, I can easily obtain full length movies in 1080p, and I can play video games in 1080p. I stopped buying DVDs 3 years ago because it just doesn't offer the quality I want in a viewing experience, there's no way I'm going to waste my time with downloads or hardware selling today that can't do what BluRay and HD DVD offer. It's about as unacceptable as television manufacturers selling '1080p' screens that aren't 1920x1080 native.

Believe me, I'm an editor, I know that there is a huge amount of bandwidth and storage overhead involved in this. I also know that I can buy a TB of external disk for under $300 these days. With wireless n built into the current Apple TV, I don't see why I shouldn't be able to watch content in a superior format. You can go on all day about the engineering hurdles, fact is that other companies are already doing it and I think 720p looks very weak in comparison. I know I'm in the minority on this but I'll just sit on my hands and wait until Apple really releases something special.

I am own an HD editing facility too and share your love of the medium. I am simply pointing out that for the present your wish for such high resolution is too early for the masses. Many friends I have sit and watch stretched NTSC SD on and high definition screen and swear they have HD!

As to downloading 1080p from iTunes store ... heck i wish they would offer even 720p! I'd take issue with true 720p looking weak though, it looks pretty damn good for the most part and would more than do for now. As I said, it will come, one day we will be talking about 2160p or higher, after all TVs just get bigger.

[Avatar74]

I think the box desperately needs a DVD option, especially a blu-ray option. Without that, I can't replace my mac mini. I'm sure others wouldn't mind replacing a dvd player. (again, especially for a blu-ray player) I've got no problem with it being an optional add on for people who really like having lots of boxes, but that would be the #1 request for me.

Why? So AppleTV can cost $700? as much as a... Mac Mini? What would be the point of introducing this product at a price point where one will cannibalize the other's sales?

[whoami]

how about screw new models....
we just need 720p content from iTunes NOW! ;)

[Digitalclips]

how about screw new models....
we just need 720p content from iTunes NOW! ;)

100% agree and I have to believe it is coming soon.

[thejadedmonkey]

Why? So AppleTV can cost $700? as much as a... Mac Mini? What would be the point of introducing this product at a price point where one will cannibalize the other's sales?
DVD drives cost ~$20. Say $50 for arguments sake. $300+$50?$700. The :apple: TV is not a mac mini.

I agree, it needs a DVD player for it to really become successful. Even if it doesn't need one, it won't be perceived as being a good value until it has one.

[colinmack]

The ultimate AppleTV for me would add:

1) DVD player (replaces one device)
2) ability to plug an EyeTV into the USB port (replaces a second device)
3) remote desktop connection (anything/everything else, just not natively)

Oh, and for Pete's sake...sell iTunes TV shoiws in Canada...

[miketcool]

I would not want to place my DSL router anywhere near my home theater.

I imagine a lot of time was spent at Apple looking at those problems. I cant tell you the number of hours I have spent trying to correct interference issues with our AV equipment. Adding a router to the :apple: tv is surely asking for a headache.

[tkn]

Frankly I just want Leopard to come with Backrow and for them to make the Mini with a video card. I would so much rather have a Mini than an AppleTV for so many reasons, including being able to use it for NAS, the DVD drive, and Growl notifications.

[outlyer]

A software update to fix the TV show browsing would be nice, as would a way to use an external drive. Why no seasons? Why reverse order? The hard drive space definitely needs a bump, at least for those of us who only use laptops.

I don't know why people are so concerned about adding everything to this machine. An Airport Extreme should remain separate, as should a DVD player. If my DVD player breaks, I'd lose my whole home stereo if it was all in one unit. Also, if I wanted to upgrade to a Blu-Ray player, I'd end up with two DVD players for no reason.

Sticking a Tivo-type tuner in there is also a waste. How would they handle the myriad of formats? Here in Canada, we don't have CableCard and even if we did, the whole box has to be verified by CableCard. If you bought one of these would you be happy with a completely sealed device that you couldn't modify without losing your tuner?

[syklee26]

im not sure if Apple will be so up for putting DVD player in ATV. Wouldn't this be bad for Movie sales?

[Avatar74]

DVD drives cost ~$20. Say $50 for arguments sake. $300+$50?$700. The :apple: TV is not a mac mini.

I agree, it needs a DVD player for it to really become successful. Even if it doesn't need one, it won't be perceived as being a good value until it has one.

I was referring to the suggestion made by another that they use Blu-Ray drives. THAT would drive up the cost at least $150 and the MSRP at least $300.

[SpudNYC]

the only thing I'm really missing is 5.1 surround. Everything else I'm comfortable waiting for. The sound on the movies stinks.

[jimsowden]

I think that the reasoning of the apple store page layout is specious, at best. If you look at all the other products, like the airport extreme they compare it to, it's in a different part of apple's product map, basically an accessory, where the Apple TV fits into one of the main categories and is listed with computers on the main page. I have a feeling if there was only one mac mini or iMac then its page would look like that as well.

[Avatar74]

im not sure if Apple will be so up for putting DVD player in ATV. Wouldn't this be bad for Movie sales?

Bingo.

[Mgkwho]

I see Apple either liscensing some sort of built in ":apple:tv" technology to TV manufacturers or building a TV themselves. I don't like set top boxes, so the biggest reason I'm not getting an :apple:tv is that it's another box to have to get. (I do understand that because it is new, it had to be introduced as a separate product for adoption, and it can be used in existing TVs).

2) price (would not hesitate to pay an extra $300 for a TV though)
3) bad photo management
4) no HD content from Apple / trailers don't stream in HD
5) can't purchase through it
6) don't want another remote (is there a way to program the apple remote into a universal-type remote?)

amongst other reasons.

In other news...LoopRumors has become the new MacOSRumors. Admit it.

It's run by one guy who talks as if it's a major corporation. His iBalls are perfect examples of what the site is: crap.

-=|Mgkwho

[sishaw]

...

I agree, it needs a DVD player for it to really become successful. Even if it doesn't need one, it won't be perceived as being a good value until it has one.

Not only that, but there's a limit to how many boxes one can plug into one's TV. I'm all full, myself.

[Avatar74]

I see Apple either liscensing some sort of built in ":apple:tv" technology to TV manufacturers or building a TV themselves.

Doubt it. The benefit of AppleTV standalone is that it integrates with many types of HD displays.

Licensing out AppleTV's user interface, etc. to other manufacturers is unlikely as Apple has under Steve Jobs direction regained the wisdom that they are first a hardware company. They tried licensing Mac OS to other manufacturers and it was a disaster because the lack of quality control ruined Apple's reputation just like it's beginning to scar Microsoft's reputation with endless patches, driver problems, etc.

Apple is about integrated solutions where they can control the quality of the user experience from top to bottom... and they do this well.

However, integrating a TV is a risk because there's too many competing options... They do computer displays because they have other hardware that helps push display sales. But look at the price points on displays... tremendously expensive to cover the hefty cost of the components plus Apple's margin. If they did a real TV it would also have to have display technologies from other companies, and in combination with their pricing strategy to avoid cannibalizing sales of their existing displays and keep it in a logical progression of price points to feature sets, the Apple "TV" would have to be more expensive than the $1800 30-inch Cinema HD. So if it's a 40" Cinema HD Apple TV what do you think it's going to cost... $2000? Hah... stick in a QAM/8VSB tuner in there, the hefty cost of an aluminum casing for a 40 inch TV, and feature sets on par with any 40" LCD and Apple's price point will easily reach well over $3000 for a TV that can't compete with Sony's SXRD XBR Liquid Crystal on Silicon displays that are far superior to LCD.

Leave people the freedom to pick whatever the hell TV they want to go with the one AppleTV unit... and keep Apple out of the hairy maintenance issues associated with some flatscreen TV's. That's another thing... the costs of supporting the initial one year warranty on a full blown TV could be unpredictable for Apple.

AppleTV is so idiot proof to connect to any HDTV that it defies their sense of industrial design to incorporate it into the display. In fact, displays should be flexible... dumb.. simple... designed to display whatever source is input to it. All the "computing" tasks should be left to external devices like a computer or an AppleTV box.

Yes, existing cable converters and DVR's have idiotic ergonomics when it comes to their menuing systems but my thought is that AppleTV will spur a change in all that... twofold:

1. Improvements in UI.

2. Internet distributed a-la carte programming.

These will gradually become the norm, add to that:

3. The LAN as home entertainment/lifestyle backbone.

One thing that does make sense to integrate into a display is a camera... simply because of the ergonomics and the basic concept of WYSIWYG. If I'm videoconferencing, it makes most sense to look directly into the display. This is why Apple is researching the development of displays whose surface area acts as the camera instead of having a pinhole camera atop it. THIS makes sense... again because the input/output are symmetrical. I'm looking at the display, the display is looking at me.

AppleTV however serves multiple purposes... music and video. So which device do you integrate it in? A receiver? A TV? A preamplifier?

The microsoft answer would be to stick it in all of them with a mediocre implementation that makes them cost effective.

The Apple answer is to forget shoehorning them into other devices and focus on one sharply designed standalone that can interact with all those other components easily.

[05elstonc]

The problem with adding a bigger hard drive is you also have to keep the data on your mac. It is not like you can just store the content on the AppleTV like a server, because of the sync function it wants to replicate your mac. It is not intended to be a home server of content. Adding a larger drive would simply mean you would also have to keep more on your own box. Now as hardrives in laptops continues to increase they can bump up the hard drive space, but I do not see Apple drastically increasing the size for the Apple TV.

[Avatar74]

Not only that, but there's a limit to how many boxes one can plug into one's TV. I'm all full, myself.

Doesn't it make more sense to actually eliminate the DVD paradigm entirely?

Optical media are inherently slow. As flash drives decrease in cost and increase in capacity, there lies the potential for tremendously fast read/write to support formats like 1080p and beyond.

The future is a product development path that slowly migrates people away from the fixed media concept to a flexible media concept: LAN as backbone, nonlinear drive storage for multiple content type.

The idea is to reinforce digital content as one type of information... digital data... which is best served by a computer system that can process digital data regardless of the content type and support additional content types by way of software upgrades.

Instead of trying to build Apple Gizmotrons that have every conceivable bell and whistle, port, knob, jack, slot, drive, antenna, etc. looking like something Bill Gates designed on a cocaine binge... It makes far more sense to reduce the task of digital processing to one coherent solution that harnesses the collective storage and computing power of the ubiquitous computer network and funnels it into your home entertainment system.

In a nutshell, this is the construct:

One box... One medium... All content.

Yeah... I'm trademarking that.

[localoid]

The Titanium Package -- a "limited edition" :apple: tv "bundle" (http://www.iffboston.org/2007/titanium.php)...

:p

[Avatar74]

The problem with adding a bigger hard drive is you also have to keep the data on your mac. It is not like you can just store the content on the AppleTV like a server, because of the sync function it wants to replicate your mac. It is not intended to be a home server of content. Adding a larger drive would simply mean you would also have to keep more on your own box. Now as hardrives in laptops continues to increase they can bump up the hard drive space, but I do not see Apple drastically increasing the size for the Apple TV.

I agree. I have 750 gigabytes of storage on my network and I can stream 720p to the AppleTV over 802.11g no problem. When the idea behind AppleTV is basically a dumb terminal that allows access to content over the network it makes no sense to turn it into a computer when there are already other computers, e.g. Mac Mini, you can connect to your TV if what you want is a PC in the living room.

[RedTomato]

The problem with adding a bigger hard drive is you also have to keep the data on your mac. It is not like you can just store the content on the AppleTV like a server, because of the sync function it wants to replicate your mac.

That actually wouldn't be a problem for me at all. I'd love to have all the data on my laptop / mac replicated on an external drive as backup in case i loose my laptop / drive crash.

Professionals will have far too much data, but they will use professional solutions.

For the home user, a 300 / 500 GB drive in a slightly larger ATV, working invisibly and automatically to backup everything, several revisions deep (with Time Machine etc) would be an amazing solution.

There are current solutions but they're not invisible / end-to-end apple.

[sishaw]

Doesn't it make more sense to actually eliminate the DVD paradigm entirely?

Optical media are inherently slow. As flash drives decrease in cost and increase in capacity, there lies the potential for tremendously fast read/write to support formats like 1080p and beyond.

The future is a product development path that slowly migrates people away from the fixed media concept to a flexible media concept: LAN as backbone, nonlinear drive storage for multiple content type.

The idea is to reinforce digital content as one type of information... digital data... which is best served by a computer system that can process digital data regardless of the content type and support additional content types by way of software upgrades.

Instead of trying to build Apple Gizmotrons that have every conceivable bell and whistle, port, knob, jack, slot, drive, antenna, etc. looking like something Bill Gates designed on a cocaine binge... It makes far more sense to reduce the task of digital processing to one coherent solution that harnesses the collective storage and computing power of the ubiquitous computer network and funnels it into your home entertainment system.

In a nutshell, this is the construct:

One box... One medium... All content.

Yeah... I'm trademarking that.

Someday, dude, someday.

[Avatar74]

That actually wouldn't be a problem for me at all. I'd love to have all the data on my laptop / mac replicated on an external drive as backup in case i loose my laptop / drive crash.

Professionals will have far too much data, but they will use professional solutions.

For the home user, a 300 / 500 GB drive in a slightly larger ATV, working invisibly and automatically to backup everything, several revisions deep (with Time Machine etc) would be an amazing solution.

There are current solutions but they're not invisible / end-to-end apple.

Why would you do backups to a fanless device that generates a tremendous amount of heat and therefore has a hard drive more likely to fail than a proper standalone backup drive? ...and by the way are essentially inaccessible if your synched computer's hard drive fails...you can't copy the content from AppleTV back to another machine... at least not without considerable hacking, but who knows how the data is encrypted on the AppleTV. Instead of paying extra for the AppleTV with the bigger drive, you'd be far better off buying an external firewire backup drive.

[combatcolin]

250GB HD

UK specced Freeview receiver

Better Remote.

SOLD

[kcroy]

I'm excited to hear this rumor of the possible widget-like utilities for ATV. I have been suggesting since it's release that ATV will bring the computer to our living rooms. Who wouldn't want to quickly check stocks, weather, etc. quickly without leaving the living room. I go from room to room all the time now. Great idea! The only thing we haven't heard is how we're going to check email during commercial breaks. I think this will happen too. Is there a widget that does that already?

How exciting! Can't wait for Leopard. To the ATV nay-sayers..."You haven't seen anything yet!"

[RedTomato]

Why would you do backups to a fanless device that generates a tremendous amount of heat and therefore has a hard drive more likely to fail than a proper standalone backup drive?

That's why I said a slightly larger one. One that takes a 3.5 inch drive anywat.

You'd be far better off buying an external firewire backup drive.

You're contradicting yourself here. Many of them don't have fans either.

...and by the way are essentially inaccessible if your synched computer's hard drive fails...you can't copy the content from AppleTV back to another machine... at least not without considerable hacking, but who knows how the data is encrypted on the AppleTV.

That's easily changeable in a simple software update. I never said that the backed up files should be kept in an obscure encrypted format.

A 500GB ATV could backup a whole family's laptops in one go, or a laptop plus a (not too full) iMac. Simplicity, for people who don't know what a NAS is.

[mrparet]

Apple will not put a DVD player OR add DVR functionality to the Apple TV. Why? Because they want you to buy all your content off the iTunes store.

[kavika411]

Speaking of what is reasonable, what is the consensus on how long Apple will wait before introducing a second :apple: TV? Even if they have a second one ready to go now - with a bigger hard drive, SDTV, or whatever - I'll bet you a donut they won't roll another one out for at least six months.

[gkarris]

The Titanium Package -- a "limited edition" :apple: tv "bundle" (http://www.iffboston.org/2007/titanium.php)...

:p

I was thinking BLACK - 80 Gig HD, Elgato built-in, and SD capability for older TVs - to compete with Tivo?

[gkarris]

Maybe more compete with Wii, without the Nintendo games.

Lite games iPod compatible, larger hard drive, standard def capability, widgets during music playback, web browsing...

[longofest]

Update: We have received a claim that LoopRumors was victim of a deliberate attempt to spread false information. Information cited from LoopRumors in this article should be regarded with extreme caution.

[Avatar74]

You're contradicting yourself here. Many of them don't have fans either.


AppleTV has an internal CPU that generates a lot more heat than a standalone Firewire drive will. But for that matter, you can get external Firewire drives that are better ventilated (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=5C088331&nplm=TJ864LL%2FA) and have more capacity for the buck.

If you stick a larger drive in the AppleTV, I guarantee you the markup is going to increase the price more than the cost of the same capacity standalone drive.

[steve_hill4]

So looprumors gets it wrong again. Big surprise.

Anyway, I would love an :apple:tv once I have a HD TV, but that will be a few years yet I suspect. By the time I have both, I would prefer to have 1080p as well as internet access, bigger hard drive and the option to plug in a tuner for recording. This last feature would be great if you could use it to record from an eyeTV and either watch later on :apple:tv or sync back to your Mac. That would be the killer for me, but I feel Apple will not want this.

DVD functionality to me is a dud. For many it would be great, but long term I would prefer to have several TB of networked storage with all my DVDs stored on them and access from any Mac or :apple:tv in the house. Most of the time I would be willing to wait a few minutes first to transfer the content and store locally, (say a few movies/TV shows onto my MBP before I went on a trip or a movie to :apple:tv to watch that evening).

[freediverdude]

I think that the reasoning behind no 1080p right now, is that if the :apple: tv had 1080p capability, the hardware would have to be a lot closer to what is inside an xbox360 or a playstation3. It would pretty much have to have an intel core processor or cell processor, plus more ram, an even better video card, etc. And if Apple built this hypothetical :apple: tv, the price point would also have to be in the range of the xbox360 or ps3- you'd basically be looking at a mac mini type price point. So you can see where this is going, it probably would not be worth doubling the price of the device to support 1080p at this time. But, in a couple years, it will be a different story, and this will be a nice upgrade for revision 2 or 3.

[MLeepson]

I think that the reasoning of the apple store page layout is specious, at best. If you look at all the other products, like the airport extreme they compare it to, it's in a different part of apple's product map, basically an accessory, where the Apple TV fits into one of the main categories and is listed with computers on the main page. I have a feeling if there was only one mac mini or iMac then its page would look like that as well.
I agree 100%. If there will be size upgrades, I doubt that the page layout is trying to prove anything other than that it's a mainstream product.

[georgemann]

I wonder how they would split the AppleTV into multiple models… bigger hard drive is the only thing I can really come up with.

Obviously bigger hard drive but I would also like to see a unit that has DVR capabilities that allow for DV video input and very basic editing directly on the AppleTV.

[Mgkwho]

Loop Rumors is crap.

-=|Mgkwho

[Xapplimatic]

I installed full Mac OS X on my Apple TV, and it already does all of this stuff. I am running Safari on it right now... :) Widgts... check. Weather? That too. Caltrans highway cameras? Of course..

It's just a matter of applying existing OS X applications to the existing hardware. Nothing about this rumor is out of line as I see it. My AppleTV-centric blog for those interested:

http://web.mac.com/macos_on_appletv/iWeb/Site/Blog/Blog.html

[Cult Follower]

I would really like this added functionality.

[j33pd0g]

If this true and there are to be future Apple TV models, I wonder if they could hash out something like this: No DVD player, but... you can use the Apple TV to stream video content directly from your mac or pc's physical DVD, using the new "Virtual DVD player" app.

[APPLENEWBIE]

Apple will not put a DVD player OR add DVR functionality to the Apple TV. Why? Because they want you to buy all your content off the iTunes store.

I'm not so sure about that. I doubt apple makes a large margin on media, but we know they make a killing on hardware. Apple is a hardware company. I think apple would be just as happy to sell twice as many Apple TV's as sell movies they don't make much on...which they might if the device had more functionality (DVD player, new codecs, DVR...) Just my $.02.

[Howmanoid]

Obviously bigger hard drive but I would also like to see a unit that has DVR capabilities that allow for DV video input and very basic editing directly on the AppleTV.

I was really concerned about the HDD size too before I got my :apple:TV a coulpe of weeks back. It really hasn't turned out to be a problem at all. Check out my blog (in the sig). I did a little write up of my experiences with it.

[twoodcc]

this seems nice :) hopefully there are more models in the future