Apple on Apple TV Hacks [Archive]

MacRumors

Apr 6, 2007, 05:51 PM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

With the flurry of hacks surrounding the Apple TV, including the ability to run a full version of Mac OS X (http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/news/2007/04/appletvhacks_0406), there's been some concern and unfounded speculation that Apple may be specifically disabling these hacks.

The most official word available comes from Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/05/apple-not-fighting-back-against-apple-tv-hacks) with a report that Apple has let them know that they are not actively involved in shutting down hacked Apple TVs.

Apple's stance, it claims, is more along the lines of: it's your box, do with it what you please -- but be mindful of voiding that warranty.

johnee

Apr 6, 2007, 05:53 PM

wondering what they would say.... I guess other than voiding the warranty, there's not much they can do, am i wrong? (probably :D)

eenu

Apr 6, 2007, 05:53 PM

good, but i have noticed a lot of these go without notice....

sunfast

Apr 6, 2007, 05:54 PM

A very refreshing stance. Go apple! :)

bigbossbmb

Apr 6, 2007, 06:01 PM

awesome... this is very good news.

i imagine someone will vote this negative for some odd reason.

mikeinternet

Apr 6, 2007, 06:03 PM

and why would they care that people are finding so many more reasons to buy one of these things.

7031

Apr 6, 2007, 06:08 PM

I'm glad that Apple is taking so well to this. I was wondering if they would be like Sony and try and release updates to stop them from doing stuff like that.

Howmanoid

Apr 6, 2007, 06:12 PM

bigandy

Apr 6, 2007, 06:14 PM

i think the whole "aarg they're restoring my box because i hacked it" thing was a bit bogus anyway...

like apple would be tunneling in to the hacked boxes and putting everything right :rolleyes:

however, i would wait until there's some official word from Apple on the whole thing...

lamina

Apr 6, 2007, 06:24 PM

let's be pirates

Cult Follower

Apr 6, 2007, 06:26 PM

Well if the warrnty is broken by one of the hacks and th machine is damaged, apple will gian another sale. Also there are not going to be tons of people performing these hacks anyway.

guzhogi

Apr 6, 2007, 06:31 PM

but be mindful of voiding that warranty.

Glad to see Apple's covering it's a$$. [/sarcasm] But I could really see a lot of people who hacked their boxes and crying to the Apple tech "Wahh! Why doesn't my :apple: TV work?" Maybe Apple can make an :apple: TV Restore feature like on iPods should this happen. Anybody w/ 1 know if Apple's already doing that?

Only things I wish the :apple: TV had were 1080p resolution & DVR capability. 1080p for those who have the best TVs, DVR so people can ditch their VCRs finally.

Off topic, but can any1 say how the quality is on Blu-Ray & HD-DVDs? Can't afford one at the moment, but I'm saving up some money. Also, how much room does a movie on each take up compared to the whole capacity? Just wondering how many & how the quality is on extras. On Wikipedia, they have an entry for a "Protein-coated disc" which is said to be able to hold 50 terabytes of data when they come commercially available (not for a few years). But just imagine the resolution you can get on that! Wonder how high a resolution can go before the human eye can't tell the difference between it and a higher 1?

Wild-Bill

Apr 6, 2007, 06:32 PM

You know if this was Micro$oft, they would have released patches to kill the hacks, and probably screw up the product in the process.

johnee

Apr 6, 2007, 06:32 PM

Apple is being adult about this, unlike MSFT who did their best to stomp all over the Xbox hacks...

yeah, they required the xbox 360 processor to have encrypted data throughout to prevent hacking.

flopticalcube

Apr 6, 2007, 06:39 PM

What a mature response from Apple! So refreshing in this age of legal nightmares. They might even find a use for it they hadn't thought of! Way to go :apple:!

G5Unit

Apr 6, 2007, 06:43 PM

That quote from Apple is going in my sig.

SeaFox

Apr 6, 2007, 07:06 PM

That quote from Apple is going in my sig.

No, no, no. You have to properly attribute the quote to them, like this:
It's your box, do with it what you please -- but be mindful of voiding that warranty.

They only half-answered the question. They said they wouldn't do anything to disable the boxes that had been hacked, as in the ones that are already out there. But they didn't say they wouldn't make future changes to the hardware/software that would prevent the hacks from working in new AppleTVs.

It's like Apple and Hymn all over again. Apple says they wont do anything to existing iPods to stop Hymn from working, but then when they update iTunes it mysteriously is no longer compatible. So the Hymn people are stuck in a game of cat and mouse and their "movement" never gains a foothold because the hacks don't work reliably over long periods of time unless you never update your machine.

Marx55

Apr 6, 2007, 07:10 PM

Hopefully Apple will allow also hacks with the iPhone, because that way it could make real wonders like wireless computerless presentations.

SeaFox

Apr 6, 2007, 07:33 PM

Hopefully Apple will allow also hacks with the iPhone, because that way it could make real wonders like wireless computerless presentations.

I think Cingular would throw a fit if that happened and cite "network integrity/security" and make Apple patch it, Cingular would just send out the patch as one of those updates you can't refuse.

I wonder if Cingular could pull support for the iPhone from their network if they didn't get action from Apple they felt was appropriate? If so, does that invalidate the exclusivity agreement between Apple and Cingular? Or will we be stuck in one of those DMCA-style situations where you have to get a Cingular contract to get an iPhone, but you can't use the iPhone on Cingular's network.

bigandtasty

Apr 6, 2007, 07:40 PM

Dang this is awesome!

Apple once again keeps it BIG AND TASTY!

DasRaven

Apr 6, 2007, 07:41 PM

Off topic, but can any1 say how the quality is on Blu-Ray & HD-DVDs? Can't afford one at the moment, but I'm saving up some money. Also, how much room does a movie on each take up compared to the whole capacity? Just wondering how many & how the quality is on extras. On Wikipedia, they have an entry for a "Protein-coated disc" which is said to be able to hold 50 terabytes of data when they come commercially available (not for a few years). But just imagine the resolution you can get on that! Wonder how high a resolution can go before the human eye can't tell the difference between it and a higher 1?

Lengthy IM sent. Should answer all your questions.

failsafe1

Apr 6, 2007, 07:58 PM

I think Apple was well aware of what was possible and is winking at the hacks.

G5Unit

Apr 6, 2007, 08:09 PM

No, no, no. You have to properly attribute the quote to them, like this:

They only half-answered the question. They said they wouldn't do anything to disable the boxes that had been hacked, as in the ones that are already out there. But they didn't say they wouldn't make future changes to the hardware/software that would prevent the hacks from working in new AppleTVs.

It's like Apple and Hymn all over again. Apple says they wont do anything to existing iPods to stop Hymn from working, but then when they update iTunes it mysteriously is no longer compatible. So the Hymn people are stuck in a game of cat and mouse and their "movement" never gains a foothold because the hacks don't work reliably over long periods of time unless you never update your machine.

Got ya.

mrjamin

Apr 6, 2007, 08:13 PM

JeffDM

Apr 6, 2007, 08:28 PM

Apple is being adult about this, unlike MSFT who did their best to stomp all over the Xbox hacks. They bricked mine for me when I connected it to XBLive. Nice!!! Even Sony doesn't get too twisted at PS hacks (and there are plenty of them). Like the quote says, we paid for the box, right?? Should Ford or GM be able to disable your car coz you change the engine mgmt software?? I don't think so! Just goes to show that it's better to do business with a company that respects it's customers not one that tries to control them. Go Apple!

With GM and Ford, and with Apple, you pay for the product outright and they usually make a net profit on the product on the sale. XBox is a subsidized unit to entice you to buy the games, which they lose money until you've bought several games and licensed accessories. That doesn't excuse it, but it's not in Microsoft's interest to support hacked machines either.

BigPrince

Apr 6, 2007, 08:33 PM

It would probably cost them more money to prevent the mods then to ignore the mods.

Mods are going to increase sales anyway.

Who knows, this is cheap R&D for them. Someone finds something way cool and posts online, it may end up in the damn device in the next revision.

JeffDM

Apr 6, 2007, 08:38 PM

Well, looks like the Mactel-linux guys managed to get Linux on it:

http://wiki.awkwardtv.org/wiki/Linux_on_Apple_TV
http://www.mactel-linux.org/wiki/AppleTV

...so it won't be long before you can use your AppleTV as a front-end for MythTV, thus bringing PVR capabilities (provided you have a dedicated MythTV backend).

Personally, I love MythTV, and as soon as they get it working reliably on the AppleTV, I'll go straight out and buy one. At the moment I have no need as my Mythbox does all the AppleTV does but without the nice interface.

If they can get it to be the back end without too much hassle (as in plug in a certain tuner, mount a drive and run the installer), then I'll give it another shot. I got 95% done with one install but my tuner cards weren't quite right for the job and at the time, I couldn't afford a new tuner at the time. Now, I've given up because I lost my spot in the instructions and don't want to retrace all the steps to make it work with a new tuner + remote. EyeTV does the job well enough for now.

BGil

Apr 6, 2007, 08:43 PM

Apple is being adult about this, unlike MSFT who did their best to stomp all over the Xbox hacks. They bricked mine for me when I connected it to XBLive. Nice!!!

Microsoft did it so people didn't pirate games or cheat on XBL. That's not really comparable to Apple TV hacks because those hacks aren't comprising the store, the downloadable movies etc.

You can hack the hell out of the Xbox if you want as long as you don't bring the hacks online. Microsoft even has good spirits about numerous sites detailing such hacks and even widely published books about hacking the Xbox.

It's not like Apple was acting the same way when people started hacking OS X to run on normal PC's.

TheBobcat

Apr 6, 2007, 09:37 PM

While Apple's seeming apathy to the hacks is commendable, it isn't comparable to MS with the Xbox as others have pointed out since that is targeted towards piracy and cheating on XBL. However, it is a better move than Sony's constant squashing of the PSP homebrew community, which nearly provided a redeeming value to that disaster.

This can only help build a community around the :apple: tv and thus its subsequent family of products, which I'm sure is Apple's first priority at this time. Not to mention the good free PR.

thogs_cave

Apr 6, 2007, 09:44 PM

One of Apple's co-founders was a hardware hacker himself. I'd like to think the spirit lives on, despite all the $SUITS. (I remember when the Apple ][ came with schematics. :D

It's so very tempting to pick one of these boxes up to play with, I just don't know if our TV can handle it - it has component input, but it's a SDTV. (We have no desire for HDTV at this point.) Is it workable?

Too bad you can't hook a regular monitor to that puppy. Or can you?

Rocketman

Apr 6, 2007, 09:47 PM

let's be pirates

Endorsed.

By Woz too.

Rocketman

twoodcc

Apr 6, 2007, 09:52 PM

i'm not surprised in Apple's remarks about it. i actually kinda like it. of course it voids the warranty, it should

mickhyperion

Apr 6, 2007, 10:00 PM

JeffDM

Apr 6, 2007, 10:25 PM

I can't imagine Apple wanting to stop it. They're getting all sorts of R & D done for free by all of these hackers. Now all they need to do is compile the notes and use them for future upgrades. Makes sense actually.

It's probably a good proving ground for ideas, but unless the community produces a really polished project, I don't think Apple would be able to use the work directly. They might implement the idea in their own way.

localoid

Apr 6, 2007, 11:17 PM

... They only half-answered the question. They said they wouldn't do anything to disable the boxes that had been hacked, as in the ones that are already out there. But they didn't say they wouldn't make future changes to the hardware/software that would prevent the hacks from working in new AppleTVs. ....

Err... that's the way it works in the real world. If you modify virtually any code, when an update comes there's absolutely no guarantee your modifications are going to work following installation of the update. The wise prepare for the that possibility... ;)

Take vBulletin for example, the software this forum is using. If you deviate greatly from the stock code, any update has the potential to hose those neat bells and whistles you've added. If I had a dollar for every update that's screwed up something on code/software I've modified, I'd be rich. :p

localoid

Apr 6, 2007, 11:30 PM

I can't imagine Apple wanting to stop it. They're getting all sorts of R & D done for free by all of these hackers. Now all they need to do is compile the notes and use them for future upgrades. Makes sense actually.

Apple seems to be have been cool with this sort of thing for a while... If you look at Apple's Mac mini page (http://www.apple.com/macmini/), note that on the left side, near bottom the following notation by Apple:

Big Ideas
The compact design of Mac mini makes it the perfect addition to your den or dorm room. But some adventurous Mac mini customers have taken it places Apple never imagined (or warrants). These links are purely for inspiration, not instruction.

Following that statement, there's several links to various "mini mod sites", on which people show and explain mini hacking techniques.

However, Apple does seems very willing to unleash their lawyers on those who put Apple's software up for downloading.

Rocketman

Apr 6, 2007, 11:39 PM

The sociological take on this is that Apple is attracting the "barely legal" crowd in Apple TV and on iTunes with DRM-free.

This invites the obvious question. Does this increase or decrease absolute or marginal piracy?

Hmmm?

Piracy does have components:

Convient cost reduction (consumer)
Resale to end user bypassing copyright (international)
Use more licenses than granted
Manufacturing facility making multiple pirated titles
Managers of piracy
Managers of micro-retail piracy
Buyers of piracy (consumer)
Buyers of piracy (resale)
Buyers of piracy (commercial)

DRM-free eliminates some of those.

Rocketman

iMikeT

Apr 7, 2007, 03:52 AM

I really don't think that Apple cares that people are hacking the :apple:tv. Personally, I think that Apple released this product just to keep the content providers happy about there being a "controlled gate" when it comes down to playing their content.

localoid

Apr 7, 2007, 04:18 AM

The sociological take on this is that Apple is attracting the "barely legal" crowd in Apple TV and on iTunes with DRM-free.
....

I think you're confusing hackers with crackers (http://db.glug-bom.org/lug-authors/philip/docs/hackers-not-crackers.html)... ;)

Jobs and Wozniak (http://www.coe.berkeley.edu/forefront/fall2005/woz.html) were two early hackers... See: Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackers:_Heroes_of_the_Computer_Revolution)

matticus008

Apr 7, 2007, 05:15 AM

Cingular would just send out the patch as one of those updates you can't refuse.
What do you mean? How can there be an update you can't refuse on a phone?
I wonder if Cingular could pull support for the iPhone from their network if they didn't get action from Apple they felt was appropriate?
They could stop carrying the iPhone, but they couldn't drop people under contract without canceling those contracts (in which case those customers could simply switch to another carrier, losing only the visual voicemail feature). Apple would just start selling the iPhone in its stores in that case and let people fend for themselves with activation and service plans.

It's not like Apple was acting the same way when people started hacking OS X to run on normal PC's.
That's not the same. OS X isn't real property you can own; it is exclusively Apple's property at all times and in all situations. You can't mod someone else's AppleTV or XBox without their permission, either. Both Microsoft and Apple have full rights to protect their software however they see fit, so long as they don't mandate what users do with their physical copies of that software.

JonDann

Apr 7, 2007, 05:31 AM

I don't get why they would say anything else. As far as they're concerned they'll be the winners when a load come back and the customer has to pay for fixing their broken box.

This is so obvoius to me, or am I naïve? (I wonder if the forum supports umlauts?)

[Edit] Score for proper spelling!

Dagless

Apr 7, 2007, 06:46 AM

Apple, that is the best thing anyone could possibly have said.

localoid

Apr 7, 2007, 02:02 PM

Apple, that is the best thing anyone could possibly have said.

Cue up the Isley Brothers (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=873911&s=143441&i=1380455), It's Your Thing...

:p

SteveG4Cube

Apr 7, 2007, 02:04 PM

They're getting all sorts of R & D done for free by all of these hackers.

I'd imagine Apple was already well aware of what can run on :apple: TV before it was released - at the very least I'd think they had them running full OSX in-house. Look at Boot Camp. They had this working secretly and released it only after some hackers made their Mactels dual boot. They'll let the tinkerers have their fun, while learning what the market wants, then maybe release some "supported" upgrades to further drive up sales.

localoid

Apr 7, 2007, 05:36 PM

... Look at Boot Camp. They had this working secretly and released it only after some hackers made their Mactels dual boot. They'll let the tinkerers have their fun, while learning what the market wants, then maybe release some "supported" upgrades to further drive up sales.

Apple was supporting the concept of dual boot a decade ago. In the '90s, Apple was funding the MKLinux project (http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/2093), which featured a boot manager that allowed PPC Macs to boot (typically): either Linux, or the Mac OS. Boot Camp isn't a radically new concept for Macs -- its just a different method for dealing with something unique (EFI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_Interface)) to Intel Macs. :)

SSpiro

Apr 7, 2007, 05:57 PM

A very refreshing stance. Go apple! :)

Agreed!

Dagless

Apr 7, 2007, 09:41 PM

Hopefully Apple will see the potential of releasing a super cheap, super under-powered Apple computer. Just stick a Combodrive in there. A Mac for word processing, email, internet, iPod organising. Keep the range of outputs. Add Bluetooth.

I'd buy that right here, right now... on the Apple Store.

Jarcrew

Apr 8, 2007, 05:19 AM

The sociological take on this is that Apple is attracting the "barely legal" crowd in Apple TV and on iTunes with DRM-free.I really don't think that's the case - I'm all for the total and utter abolition of DRM, I don't see how it would attract pirates (or would-be pirates). I share Leo Laporte's viewpoint that the only people who are hindered by anti-piracy measures are honest people.

Konradx

Apr 8, 2007, 06:08 PM

Wicked, no Sony approach!!

MacAodh

Apr 8, 2007, 10:29 PM

Add Bluetooth.

agreed, that would give mice and a keyboard. making it into quite a usable little second computer

p.s. has anyone actually done this? is it fast or.... crap

stephenli

Apr 9, 2007, 12:31 AM

nothing lose from apple, right?
while u r going to hack :apple: TV and install OSX, u would need to purchase both!

I am going to get one unit. Could anybody tell me that if Front Row works if I install OSX retail package? or...I need to wait until 10.5 of which Steve claimed that Frontrow/photo booth etc etc would be included?

localoid

Apr 9, 2007, 05:30 AM

I am going to get one unit. Could anybody tell me that if Front Row works if I install OSX retail package? or...I need to wait until 10.5 of which Steve claimed that Frontrow/photo booth etc etc would be included?

Apple doesn't offer a retail version of OS X Tiger for Intel machines.

SteveG4Cube

Apr 9, 2007, 08:59 PM

Apple doesn't offer a retail version of OS X Tiger for Intel machines.

They wont be offering a retail full version of 10.5 for Intel Macs either. It'll only be available as an upgrade version since every Intel Mac already has Tiger on it.