Mac OS X Server Free with Mac Pro?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

With the release of the new Mac Pro, it appears that Apple UK Store (http://r.macrumorslive.com/ukstore) is offering Mac OS X 10.4 Server (10-Client) for free with the purchase of a new Mac Pro.

http://images.macrumors.com/article/2007/04/06/macproserver.png (http://r.macrumorslive.com/ukstore)
The Mac OS X Server (http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/) software typically costs £349 for the 10-Client version at the UK Store, while the Unlimited-Client typically costs £699. On the Mac Pro order form, however, the OS X Server 10-Client is a free upgrade, with the Unlimited Client discounted to £349.

In fact, this discounted option is reflected in all of the European stores, but U.S/Canada customers still have to pay full retail price.

Since there has been no official announcement of this "deal", it remains possible this may be an error on Apple's website.

[[ digg this ]] (http://digg.com/apple/Get_Mac_OS_X_Server_Free_when_you_buy_a_Mac_Pro)

[dartzorichalcos]

I would say it's a error. There is no way Mac OS X Server could be for free.

[Howmanoid]

This is totally sweet! Wish they'd offer server up at a discount for those of us who already sprung for the Mac Pro...

[i4k20c]

It's a shame they didn't do this earlier.

[coumerelli]

I like it. I'd like to do some domain type stuff in my house. But I really don't want to have to BUY server for it. Maybe Apple just wants to make Server more accesable for IT admins who want to fool around with it. If I'm using it personally and am rather comfortable using it -- it's more likely that I'll recommend it for the office/company I work for/with -- and throw in a purchase of an XServe/XRAID to boot. I think it's smart.

[Eidorian]

Someone buy it now! :D

[guzhogi]

Would be nice if this was true & US customers got the same deal. I work in an elementary school district and only use Macs. This can help save us money. While we already get a discount for this for being aschool, it's not that much of a discount.

I kinda like Mac OS X Server. Makes administering users and stuff like that easier. However, Remote Desktop is a little too "Big Brother"-ish for me.

[Max Payne]

Finally some consideration of European users. I feel bad for other consumers. But still I'm sure the european version was originally three quarters more expensive than the american equivalent.

[killmoms]

I kinda like Mac OS X Server. Makes administering users and stuff like that easier. However, Remote Desktop is a little too "Big Brother"-ish for me.

What do you care if you're Big Brother? ;)

[Mgkwho]

I would think half the IT industry would fail if it weren't for remote desktop.

-=|Mgkwho

[koobcamuk]

Legally, if we were to buy this - Apple can't turn around and say "it was a mistake" because we have it in black and white and it would be on all payment and order forms.

Weird. Lots of mistakes at the website recently.

[guzhogi]

What do you care if you're Big Brother? ;)

I see your point, but I just don't like how I can invade people's privacy. (I have a big conscience, okay?) Besides, the higher-up techs in the district can still do it to me.

[moutian]

Free stuff is always good.

[Highland]

I see your point, but I just don't like how I can invade people's privacy. (I have a big conscience, okay?) Besides, the higher-up techs in the district can still do it to me.
Well, like a lot of features, it has to be turned on to work (turned on for the CLIENT). And there's plenty of Remote Desktop uses that don't include invasion of privacy, like logging in to control a server.

I ordered a Mac Pro in Aus yesterday... didn't see the option :(

[tibbon]

I'm SURE that Apple has a line in their legal stuff that says something like, "We are not reponsibile for misprintings of product pricing, etc..."

But being a good company, they will likely honor it until they fix it.

Either that or it's in an attempt to get people to pay for an upgrade to 10.5 Server instead of to just 10.5. You don't realize how badly you need the features until you start using them.

Apple Remote Desktop is great! I often use it to control my desktop (which is in my studio) when I'm around the house. I can set an intensive program to start doing something, or do something like turn off iTunes in case I forgot earlier and don't want to go to my studio. Very nice.

I also use it so that I can often have my iBook controlling my desktop when I'm using Logic so that I can have the laptop on the piano or near the drums, and record myself better. Works for me!

[brooker]

... so readers should order at their own risk.

By that do you mean, "Order Now!!"

seriously... someone do it! oh, how i hope they offer that in the US stores soon...

:fingerscrossed: don'tbeamistakedon'tbeamistakedon'tbeamistake.....

[Will_reed]

This sounds like a mistake if the US store doesn't have this.

If your european and want a mac pro maybe now is the time to buy one fast quickly before they switch it off.

[portent]

Gotta be a mistake. (Or maybe they're giving Tiger Server away, because Leopard server's coming soon?)

I would love to play with Server, though.

I see your point, but I just don't like how I can invade people's privacy. (I have a big conscience, okay?) Besides, the higher-up techs in the district can still do it to me.
Many IT departments have access to all sorts of private information. Payroll records, performance reviews, salary info, personal files or emails, passwords...if your IT guys aren't trustworthy, then you've got bigger problems than what's on your screen.

[j_maddison]

I'm SURE that Apple has a line in their legal stuff that says something like, "We are not reponsibile for misprintings of product pricing, etc..."

It doesn't matter what they have in their small print, they are still subject to UK law when they sell a product or service here. So if they advertise it as a certain price, and it's bought at that price, then they can't legally charge you retrospectively.

So anyone buying a macpro with a 10 client server pack in the UK wont be charged for it, providing the discount remains at the checkout point on the Apple store.

Jay

[JeffDM]

I would say it's a error. There is no way Mac OS X Server could be for free.

It's not free, you have to buy a very expensive computer to get it.

[wildmac]

Its not offered that way on the Apple developer pages, so it sounds like it is a mistake. If they were trying to clear it out before Lepoard, they would be giving it to developers too.....

[JeffDM]

I see your point, but I just don't like how I can invade people's privacy. (I have a big conscience, okay?) Besides, the higher-up techs in the district can still do it to me.

It's not enabled by default, if it's your computer then it's not turned on unless you set it otherwise. As with pretty much any technology, there is the good and the bad, in this case, I don't think it makes sense to reject the good because of the potential for misuse. No body is telling you to invade anyone's privacy. If you have the right to maintain that computer, then there is likely no privacy to be invaded, any more than you could use that admin power to rifle through the user's files.

It's basically an enhanced VNC. I use VNC to maintain several computers and it saves me a lot of hassle and time.

[Peace]

Its not offered that way on the Apple developer pages, so it sounds like it is a mistake. If they were trying to clear it out before Lepoard, they would be giving it to developers too.....

Not sure what level developer you are but Select and Premier members get OS X Server for free.

[matticus008]

Legally, if we were to buy this - Apple can't turn around and say "it was a mistake" because we have it in black and white and it would be on all payment and order forms.
They're not responsible for technical or typographical errors, even in the UK. Since you are not billed immediately at invoice, Apple can suspend the order, correct the amount, and contact you. You will be given the option to pay the correct price or cancel your order without penalty.
It doesn't matter what they have in their small print, they are still subject to UK law when they sell a product or service here. So if they advertise it as a certain price, and it's bought at that price, then they can't legally charge you retrospectively.
Correct. But since you will not be charged (authorization is not a charge) until the product ships, they have the opportunity to correct the error, if it is an error. They are not obligated to deliver the product at that price unless your card has been charged or your account debited.

If your Mac Pro ships before they realize the mistake, you're home free with OS X Server for no additional charge. However, if this is a mistake, Apple will likely correct it within 24 hours, before anyone gets a free copy.

[G4DP]

I don't know where you work, but if something is sold at a specific point. The company cannot change the price after the order has been placed.

If it is advertised as being free, Apple have to give it as advertised. If not this is false advertising and they would end up in court.

Anyway, I have taken an order all the way through to final checkout and it remain free for the 10 client server.

[casperghst42]

It's the same on the Dutch and Danish store.... so if it's not Apple being very kind to European customers (or non US based), then they would have a problem.

I know that in Denmark you cannot claim that it was a mistake, except in cases where a normal thinking person would see that it would be a mistake. In this case where they offer something as an addition and within a reasonable value (or the combined value for the MacPro - which is kind of expensive in the first place) then one could argue if this is something they should deliver.

Casper

[-Alan-]

Nevermind....I was wrong.

[oogje]

Not sure what level developer you are but Select and Premier members get OS X Server for free.

Select and Premier members get a perpetually licensed OX S Server for free? Or do they get a version that expires in year or two?

brian

[shawnce]

Select and Premier members get a perpetually licensed OX S Server for free? Or do they get a version that expires in year or two? No. You get a license that is valid for a year but get new licenses every year. The license is intended for development work and not for use as a production server.

[Peace]

Select and Premier members get a perpetually licensed OX S Server for free? Or do they get a version that expires in year or two?

brian


They get an unlimited user license that expires usually at the end of the year or when a new version comes out.

In otherwords. As long as they remain Select or Premier members they get it for free.

Most Select and/or Premier members stay that way for years.

You can use it for production work though if you wish.That's why it's an unlimited user license.

[shawnce]

I would say it's a error. There is no way Mac OS X Server could be for free.

Apple includes an unlimited-client version of Mac OS X Server with every Xserve system they sell. It wouldn't be that surprising that they would give you an option of getting the 10-client version of Mac OS X Server at no cost with a Mac Pro.

[shawnce]

You can use it for production work though if you wish.That's why it's an unlimited user license. Actually "To install Mac OS X Server v10.4 for Developer Testing needs use this serial number".

[matticus008]

I don't know where you work, but if something is sold at a specific point. The company cannot change the price after the order has been placed.
Yes, if the price is in error, all countries' commercial code allows for a retailer to cancel the transaction, as long as that cancellation occurs before the transaction is completed. At checkout, you receive an invoice, not a receipt. The transaction has not been completed until you have paid (not merely billed and offered payment).
If it is advertised as being free, Apple have to give it as advertised. If not this is false advertising and they would end up in court.
It wouldn't end up in court. Someone may well sue, but if this is an error, corrected promptly, it ends there. No judge would take it.

Any party has the right to decline to complete a transaction for any reason up until that transaction takes place. A transaction has not legally occurred until you've handed over money and the other party has accepted it. At Apple, that does not occur at checkout, but just prior to shipment.

Billing errors are not illegal.

In any case, the best way to check the veracity of this would be to have someone go to a physical Apple store in the UK and inquire about ordering the Mac Pro. If their system includes the server software, this is an intentional move.

[Peace]

Actually "To install Mac OS X Server v10.4 for Developer Testing needs use this serial number".

I KNEW you were gonna say that :)

If I want to "Test" OS X Server in my office of 100 people the Developer licensing agreement allows me to do that..;)

[ChrisA]

What does Apple include with "Server" that is not part of the normal Mac OS X that is not already free.

I see things like remote Desktop. But that is just Apple's name for VNC which is free. Also Apple competition in the server world is 100% free for any number of clients. Linux, BSD and Solaris are all Open Source and free for any use. Maybe Apple is just bringing it's price in line with the others.

Could some one say what it is you get with Server that you can't simply download off the 'net.

[shawnce]

What does Apple include with "Server" that is not part of the normal Mac OS X that is not already free.

http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/

[ryanw]

Take a "good hard look" at OSX Server to see if it's what you want before going with it. I installed OSX Server on the G5 PowerMac at my studio and it was the worst mistake of my life. OSX Server has it's purpose but it doesn't have the install base that "Workstation" does so patches are less frequent and more hazardous. Also, I found applications to crash more frequently on "Server" vs "Workstation". If you don't have a compeling reason for "Server" then stick with the regular workstation.

[GrahamPadruig]

In British law a sale is a contract between the buyer and seller. The seller does indeed have the right not to enter into a contract, so if a shop has a sign saying "TVs for £50.00" when it should have said £500.00 they can refuse to sell to you at that price. The point at which the contract becomes binding on both parties differs from England in Scotland. In Scotland verbal contracts are binding, so simply saying "I would like to take buy that TV for £50" and the shopkeeper saying "OK" would technically be a contract (difficult to prove without witnesses). This applies from a stick of chewing gum right up to a 50-room mansion. In England you need written material. It may be that if Apple's online system accepts the order and gives you a written confirmation then they are in a contract with you. Their opportunity to refuse is when you place the order. I'm fairly sure this was tested in court only a couple of years ago when the seller tried to argue that because the system was automated they needed another chance - I don't think they got it.

[bankshot]

Apple includes an unlimited-client version of Mac OS X Server with every Xserve system they sell. It wouldn't be that surprising that they would give you an option of getting the 10-client version of Mac OS X Server at no cost with a Mac Pro.

Right. My first impression was that this is probably a typo, but it could be real. It makes sense to offer at least the 10-client* Server at no charge with the Mac Pro since there's currently no 8-core Xserve. And an 8-core machine is likely to really shine in a server environment with many users hammering it at once. Large companies or institutions needing more than a 4-core machine then won't balk at either buying 2 Xserves or paying for OS X Server on top of the 8-core Mac Pro. Definitely makes sense.

* Note that the "10-client" version is only referring to the number of concurrent AppleShare (AFP) users that may be connected at once. There's no limit on simultaneous SMB (Windows sharing), NFS, ssh, mail, web, etc connections. Frankly, I'm not sure why they even bother to differentiate between 10-client and unlimited for AFP anymore.

[bankshot]

Take a "good hard look" at OSX Server to see if it's what you want before going with it. I installed OSX Server on the G5 PowerMac at my studio and it was the worst mistake of my life. OSX Server has it's purpose but it doesn't have the install base that "Workstation" does so patches are less frequent and more hazardous. Also, I found applications to crash more frequently on "Server" vs "Workstation". If you don't have a compeling reason for "Server" then stick with the regular workstation.

What? I haven't found this to be the case with Panther Server. We have it on a G5 Power Mac at work connected to 2 Xserve RAIDs. As far as I can tell, Server is simply OS X Client (standard) plus all the server admin goodies. All client-oriented applications run fine, and software updates are (were) just as frequent.

We never had a compelling reason to upgrade to Tiger, so I can't necessarily comment from experience on that. But I don't see why it would be any different.

[twoodcc]

I would say it's a error. There is no way Mac OS X Server could be for free.

i would have to agree here.....but you never know....

[Rocketman]

I see your point, but I just don't like how I can invade people's privacy. (I have a big conscience, okay?) Besides, the higher-up techs in the district can still do it to me.

But if you view porn (or any unapproved content) from the classroom on student/teacher (use student) client PC's all you have to do is never save browser histories and encript any locally saved files.

Oh, wait, did I just post a how-to?

Oops!

Rocketman

[matticus008]

In England you need written material. It may be that if Apple's online system accepts the order and gives you a written confirmation then they are in a contract with you. Their opportunity to refuse is when you place the order.
It's not, in fact. Placement of the order is merely a submission of a request for a product and an offer of payment. The system does not have any capability to reject your order. Computers cannot be granted unilateral agency, and an invoice is not a contract, since it does not require explicit approval by any party. An invoice is used to generate a bill or a service agreement, which in turn is a stipulation and would proceed as you describe.

An invoice is a presentation and not a binding document. This is why they tend to say "this is not a bill." It is a list of agreed-upon costs and it is only enforceable for services rendered (not for future services). A sales or service agreement would indeed constitute a contract as you describe, as would any document identifying itself as a contract.
I'm fairly sure this was tested in court only a couple of years ago when the seller tried to argue that because the system was automated they needed another chance - I don't think they got it.
You might be referring to the Kodak case which was big a few years ago. The problem with the Kodak case was that the email included "This contract..." in the terms, the error was not an obvious one (e.g. the price was something like £100 instead of £250, which is not a decimal error or an accidental 0.00 charge), and the error was advertised as a special (not simply tucked into a price list on a configuration page with no fanfare).

Common law provides for the rescinding of a contract made with a "unilateral mistake of fact" and uses a three-pronged test. Essentially the mistake must (1)involve a basic assumption of the contract, (2) constitute unconscionable enforcement, (3) the mistake has a material impact on the seller. A pricing error would be a prime example.

[BiikeMike]

But if you view porn (or any unapproved content) from the classroom on student/teacher (use student) client PC's all you have to do is never save browser histories and encript any locally saved files.

Oh, wait, did I just post a how-to?

Oops!

Rocketman

That doesn't matter. They can still see where you have been and what you have done. On most school networks, when it goes through their system, they can track every single thing you do on the internet, because they keep tabs on each individual IP. And as for encrYpting local files, good luck. The school system admins have access no matter what you do

[Rocketman]

Apple includes an unlimited-client version of Mac OS X Server with every Xserve system they sell. It wouldn't be that surprising that they would give you an option of getting the 10-client version of Mac OS X Server at no cost with a Mac Pro.

Agreed.

Let's say this is an Apple policy.

Selling a limited license with a MacPro is not only a good idea, since the MacPro is a "premium" product, but also Server has been out for almost a full decade now and those added features have been slipping into CONSUMER applications consistently since. It is time we realize every non single purpose CPU is a micro-server and needs server functionality.

Nothing wrong with Apple shifting the Admin functions to the higher price product, and at this point charging half as much for it.

What I wonder is "what's next". Does Apple have a "super server" or "super admin" up it's sleeve to get YA $1-2k price point. They probably deserve it.

Rocketman

[Di9it8]

Errors and omissions excepted is the catch all which should cover for any mistakes in pricing etc.
I think that it is a sleepy programmer, as UK Sweden and Switzerland have it free, HongKong Singapore & Australia dont even have any software install as an option, and you cant buy the 8 core machine in South Africa from the website:rolleyes:

[fahlman]

Would be nice if this was true & US customers got the same deal. I work in an elementary school district and only use Macs. This can help save us money. While we already get a discount for this for being aschool, it's not that much of a discount.

I kinda like Mac OS X Server. Makes administering users and stuff like that easier. However, Remote Desktop is a little too "Big Brother"-ish for me.
Have you ever used ARD? Do you know what it does besides allowing you to observe the screen of another user? Do you know this feature can be disabled? Do you know that ARD can be set to show when your screen is being observed if the feature is enabled?

Mac OS X Server is cheap already. Unlimited users for $999. Check the price (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/howtobuy/licensing/pricing.mspx) of Windows 2003, plus CALs.

[Amdahl]

=
If it is advertised as being free, Apple have to give it as advertised. If not this is false advertising and they would end up in court.

European law is different, but in the US, I think a very reasonable argument can be made that it is not false advertising. False advertising (aka bait and switch) is meant to prevent a store from running a promotion to get you in the door, and then not honoring the offer once you are there.

In this case, there was never any advertising; you didn't respond to an ad and travel to a store. There was no bait & switch. I think it is quite easy to cancel the order up until the time it is delivered.. in the US. The same rule applies in a real store; the price tags are not legally binding. Once the cash changes hands, it is.

[Peace]

You know..After the past few "mistakes" Apple has put on their website it seems like a MacRumors discussion about it was caught by Apple and fixed fairly quickly.

Is this still on the EU stores ?..or whichever stores had them.

:confused:

[PerfectlyFlawed]

I'm thinking this could be real, cause like the thing said it used to cost 349 for the 10 client, and 699 for unlimited, and being its free for 10 and 349 for unlimited it makes sense, and apple hasn't changed it yet, by now they would have caught that. I think its real, just hope they do it for US too.


as far it it "not being advertised so they don't necessarily have to honor it"
thats not true, I've bought stuff at stores a couple times where thats happened and the cashier was confused about the price so they got a manager, they said they have to honor it cause I did catch their mistake and then right after my transaction they went and changed it right away

[localoid]

Not sure what level developer you are but Select and Premier members get OS X Server for free.

Free... for "for development and testing" purposes (only)... ;)

[Multimedia]

I see this as another reason to wait for Tiger Server for free. Cool offer. Hope it spreads to the Sates. ;)

[Tegosaurus]

iWork was also "free" the first day, at least in the Belgian store. Now it is [+ euro 79]...
So I guess we'll see an update to the OS X Server price as well.

[MLeepson]

See post 59.
It's a typo. See image below. It's self explanatory.
<snip>

[Nermal]

It's a typo. See image below. It's self explanatory.

You say it's self-explanatory but I don't actually see what you're trying to explain.

[matticus008]

It's a typo. See image below. It's self explanatory.
Silly Apple.
Sorry, but how does that image demonstrate it as a typo? It shows "no OS" and "10 client" being the same price unless I'm missing something. It should be (under the former pricing) £349 for the 10-client and £699 for unlimited.

[MLeepson]

Oh wait, nevermind, I thought it was something it wasn't. Excuse that.

[Infrared]

You know..After the past few "mistakes" Apple has put on their website it seems like a MacRumors discussion about it was caught by Apple and fixed fairly quickly.

We are Apple's website editors :)

[SiliconAddict]

Sure, why not? Poor man's server vs. spending 10K on the real thing. This thing is basically a server sans redundant power supply and an actual RAID controller. Then again SATA hardware can usually do RAID 0,1, and sometimes 5. Depends on the hardware. Anyone know what OS X supports on a Mac Pro?

[Analog Kid]

Either that or it's in an attempt to get people to pay for an upgrade to 10.5 Server instead of to just 10.5. You don't realize how badly you need the features until you start using them.

Apple Remote Desktop is great! I often use it to control my desktop (which is in my studio) when I'm around the house. I can set an intensive program to start doing something, or do something like turn off iTunes in case I forgot earlier and don't want to go to my studio. Very nice.

I think you've nailed it. The cost to Apple of fronting a few copies of Server is nothing compared to the benefit of seeding Server onto more machines-- particularly give that there is no reduced price upgrades. I'd actually be tempted to take this offer except I wouldn't want to throw down the money for Leopard Server in a few months.

Agreed on remote desktop. I'm using VNC to control a headless mini and also so I don't have to keep going over to my wife's desk to help her with stuff. I don't have the ARD product because I don't need the administration capabilities-- just VNC is enough for me.
I like it. I'd like to do some domain type stuff in my house. But I really don't want to have to BUY server for it. Maybe Apple just wants to make Server more accesable for IT admins who want to fool around with it. If I'm using it personally and am rather comfortable using it -- it's more likely that I'll recommend it for the office/company I work for/with -- and throw in a purchase of an XServe/XRAID to boot. I think it's smart.
Apple needs a "home server" edition. I'd like all the administration features of Server but I don't need any clients, really. Are the client licenses for allowing remote machines to store files and/or boot from the server? I'd just like the domain features myself.

What does Apple include with "Server" that is not part of the normal Mac OS X that is not already free.

Could some one say what it is you get with Server that you can't simply download off the 'net.
There are two things you can't download-- the GUI administrative tools, and the ease of installation. Otherwise, you're right-- just about all of the OS X Server functionality is based on open source projects. I've enabled a lot of the features I need on a client version of the OS and it works well enough-- I wouldn't mind easier administration or being able to avoid having to do all that compiling all the time though.

If you have the right to maintain that computer, then there is likely no privacy to be invaded, any more than you could use that admin power to rifle through the user's files.

Not true. There's a difference between having the right to monitor my activity and exercising that right without cause. My landlord has the right to enter my unit, but I'd be right pissed if he did it without warning me first. Same goes with my work machine-- nothing to hide, I just don't like being watched. Of course, ARD resolves this problem by requiring the client to enable it, as you said.

[Shagrat]

Well, i tried adding Server 10 licence as an option, and went to check out, and it still shows as the standard price, so I assume if i had completed the order it WOULD have been free...?\

We won't know for certain unless someone actually places an order which gets honoured, I suppose. Any takers?

[ATG]

Before anybody gets jealous... remember that the baseline Mac Pro costs in the UK (converted):
UK: $3,338.53
Compared to the US price of:
US: $2,499.00

So even if you add OS X Server to the US one:
$2,998.00

It is still cheaper than buying with the free server in the UK.

[AppleMan101]

It's about time they cut us some slack! For those of you who arent aware, we usually have to pay about a third extra on any product in sterling than it's worth in USD.

(All prices are the cheapest, stock configs)

MacBook
US Price $1099 = &#163;600 UK Price = &#163;749 (25&#37; extra)

MacBook Pro
US Price $1999 = &#163;1017 UK Price = &#163;1349 (33% extra)

iMac
US Price $999 = &#163;508 UK Price = &#163;679 (34% extra)

Mac Pro
US Price $2499 = &#163;1272 UK Price = &#163;1699 (34% extra)

As you can see, it hurts our wallets buying apple products over here :mad:

:EDIT: It looks like someone else had the same idea as me, weird :/EDIT:

[Project]

In the UK, this is merely an invitation to treat and not false advertising.

When you choose the Mac Pro with OSX Server for free, you are saying to Apple 'I will offer you £xxx for these products'. Now for websites, this is where the law gets a bit sticky. It depends entirely on whether the T&C of the Apple store say that the contract is formed at the time of dispatch of the goods OR when your email confirmation comes through. Most sane online retailers will stipulate that contracts only form at the point of dispatch, so that they are afforded an amount of time to rectify any mistakes in price.

Apple say that the contract is binding when they send out the order confirmation (not the Web Order Number email). Up until you receive the order confirmation they have the right to turn down your offer.

[macinfojunkie]

In British law a sale is a contract between the buyer and seller. The seller does indeed have the right not to enter into a contract, so if a shop has a sign saying "TVs for &#163;50.00" when it should have said &#163;500.00 they can refuse to sell to you at that price. The point at which the contract becomes binding on both parties differs from England in Scotland. In Scotland verbal contracts are binding, so simply saying "I would like to take buy that TV for &#163;50" and the shopkeeper saying "OK" would technically be a contract (difficult to prove without witnesses). This applies from a stick of chewing gum right up to a 50-room mansion. In England you need written material. It may be that if Apple's online system accepts the order and gives you a written confirmation then they are in a contract with you. Their opportunity to refuse is when you place the order. I'm fairly sure this was tested in court only a couple of years ago when the seller tried to argue that because the system was automated they needed another chance - I don't think they got it.

I don't recall a contract having to be in writing in order to be binding under English law - otherwise if I phone up Apple and place an order, then is that not a valid contract offer and acceptance?

Admittedly difficult to prove without some form of material evidence, but so long as both parties are offering some form of consideration when making an offer and accepting, then when I was at law school, I recall being taught that the contract was binding. The question would be in this case, when the consideration was being accepted on the part of the seller. I.e. when their cards were being billed. I think that has more bearing than if the order/contract was verbal or written.

Then again it was 10 years ago I last studied this, so selling law could have changed since then.

[Legal notice: All comments in this post are offered on the basis of personal opinion for the purpose of social debate. The above comments are not provided as professional legal advice and should not be relied upon as such.]

[mstur]

It's a shame they didn't do this earlier.

It is quite natural that they offer NOW - and not a day earlier - the OSX Server 10.4 as a bonus for MacPro buyers !

OSX server 10.5 is around the corner. And there was never an inexpensive upgrade option for a OSX server licence. So anyone who likes OSX Server 10.4 will definitely have to buy OSX Server 10.5 at full price in order to get a 100% Intel savvy version of this product...

[bigandy]

Before anybody gets jealous... remember that the baseline Mac Pro costs in the UK (converted):
UK: $3,338.53
Compared to the US price of:
US: $2,499.00

So even if you add OS X Server to the US one:
$2,998.00

It is still cheaper than buying with the free server in the UK.

It's about time they cut us some slack! For those of you who arent aware, we usually have to pay about a third extra on any product in sterling than it's worth in USD.

I agree completely. You're in the US wanting 10.4 Server with your shiny new MacPro? Then pay for it. You're still getting it cheaper than us. Grr.

And it's definately not a mistake, as the UK HE store has it too, with the usual discount:

http://macrumors.pixellation.co.uk/pics/mp.tigerserver.edu.png

[macinfojunkie]

I just called Apple UK Sales and they confirmed it is a free option. Apparently intentional - no doubt for the reasons that have been suggested previously to encourage adoption ahead of 10.5 Server.

[matticus008]

It's about time they cut us some slack! For those of you who arent aware, we usually have to pay about a third extra on any product in sterling than it's worth in USD.
That's not strictly true. If you look at the purchasing power of the pound sterling, you see that it is nearly 15&#37; stronger than the dollar. You're also not taking into account taxes. The UK prices are really:

Mac Pro: &#163;1445.96 ($2841 USD) vs. $2499 [13.5% markup]
MacBook Pro: &#163;1148.09 ($2256 USD) vs. $1999 [13% markup]
etc.

Taking into consideration the weakness of the dollar, the UK prices aren't much higher at all, especially since the actual costs of conducting business abroad are also higher, so some markup is to be expected. However, with a stronger dollar, you'd see extremely similar prices to the US retail price (before VAT). A ten cent reduction in the exchange rate cuts the US-equivalent price down to $2700, which is in line with what you'd expect. Here in the US, we pay through the nose for UK products as well. Pricing of American products abroad is the one downside to a weak dollar from your perspective.

The UK's tax policies are not Apple's fault (nor any other US-based retailer who does business in the UK), nor should Apple be expected to lower prices to compensate for your higher tax rate. You also can't necessarily expect a company to revise prices daily to keep up with exchange rates.

[gnasher729]

I just called Apple UK Sales and they confirmed it is a free option. Apparently intentional - no doubt for the reasons that have been suggested previously to encourage adoption ahead of 10.5 Server.

I think that it is most likely a mistake, but they will still accept orders. In these situations, a company always has to choose between losing money and annoying customers. Now if Apple was offering some display for £5.99 instead of £599, they would choose to annoy the customers (somebody who would insist on a fine monitor for £5.99 is probably not someone you want as a customer in the first place). In this case, anyone taking up that offer spends a huge amount of money anyway. I never had any intention to buy MacOS X Server. So if I ordered a MacPro with Server just because it is free, all that Apple loses is the cost of making the box and burning a DVD. And if someone else is lucky to get the software for free who was going to buy it, Apple still makes a nice profit from the deal. So it is unlikely that they would refuse this deal if you insist on it.

[guzhogi]

I think that it is most likely a mistake, but they will still accept orders. In these situations, a company always has to choose between losing money and annoying customers. Now if Apple was offering some display for £5.99 instead of £599, they would choose to annoy the customers (somebody who would insist on a fine monitor for £5.99 is probably not someone you want as a customer in the first place). In this case, anyone taking up that offer spends a huge amount of money anyway. I never had any intention to buy MacOS X Server. So if I ordered a MacPro with Server just because it is free, all that Apple loses is the cost of making the box and burning a DVD. And if someone else is lucky to get the software for free who was going to buy it, Apple still makes a nice profit from the deal. So it is unlikely that they would refuse this deal if you insist on it.

Off topic, but this reminds me of something on the news I saw yesterday where a new tax law in Illinois I think would make small businesses who have $3,000,000 and $200,000 in profit would go from paying something like $20,000 in taxes to something like $56,000 in taxes. People say these companies will go bankrupt. I'll admit, I don't really know anything about economics, but why will they go bankrupt? Last time I checked $200,000 in PROFITS > $56,000

[guzhogi]

I think that it is most likely a mistake, but they will still accept orders. In these situations, a company always has to choose between losing money and annoying customers. Now if Apple was offering some display for £5.99 instead of £599, they would choose to annoy the customers (somebody who would insist on a fine monitor for £5.99 is probably not someone you want as a customer in the first place). In this case, anyone taking up that offer spends a huge amount of money anyway. I never had any intention to buy MacOS X Server. So if I ordered a MacPro with Server just because it is free, all that Apple loses is the cost of making the box and burning a DVD. And if someone else is lucky to get the software for free who was going to buy it, Apple still makes a nice profit from the deal. So it is unlikely that they would refuse this deal if you insist on it.

You're forgetting the R&D work and paying the coders and advertising that went into Server.

[Digitalclips]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

With the release of the new Mac Pro, it appears that Apple UK Store (http://r.macrumorslive.com/ukstore) is offering Mac OS X 10.4 Server (10-Client) for free with the purchase of a new Mac Pro.


Any day now Apple will quietly release the 8 Core X-Serve and this will be the where the free offer of OS X Server will be and should have been all along. I bet this is simply a web worker getting it wrong and confusing the Mac and software names up.

Either that or Apple UK mixed up an order last year and have a **** load of OS X Server packs by mistake and need to dump them before OS X Leopard Server arrives : lol

[mustang_dvs]

Take a "good hard look" at OSX Server to see if it's what you want before going with it. I installed OSX Server on the G5 PowerMac at my studio and it was the worst mistake of my life. OSX Server has it's purpose but it doesn't have the install base that "Workstation" does so patches are less frequent and more hazardous. Also, I found applications to crash more frequently on "Server" vs "Workstation". If you don't have a compeling reason for "Server" then stick with the regular workstation.

Actually, Server and Client patches (10.x.x updates and security updates) happen simultaneously, if not faster for server, due to the specialized add-ons. 10.4.x server has been rock solid for me -- I use it for both a web/mail machine (a G4 Cube, no less) and an internal media/eyeTV server (an intel mini with Front Row re-enabled) the Cube has been up for 32+ days (SW updates require restarts), the mini for 22 days (Airport firmware update). Both have a local user logged in all the time with various apps running 24/7 (Data Backup and EyeTV, iTunes, respectively).

Server isn't the same as client, for sure, but all of the elements of Client are there, along with some server specific additions/replacements.

[Abstract]

This wasn't a mistake, folks. Several Apple Stores all have this new deal on the website.

I just wonder why the US didn't get the same deal.

[bigandy]

That's not strictly true. If you look at the purchasing power of the pound sterling, you see that it is nearly 15% stronger than the dollar. You're also not taking into account taxes. The UK prices are really:

Mac Pro: £1445.96 ($2841 USD) vs. $2499 [13.5% markup]
MacBook Pro: £1148.09 ($2256 USD) vs. $1999 [13% markup]
etc.

Taking into consideration the weakness of the dollar, the UK prices aren't much higher at all, especially since the actual costs of conducting business abroad are also higher, so some markup is to be expected. However, with a stronger dollar, you'd see extremely similar prices to the US retail price (before VAT). A ten cent reduction in the exchange rate cuts the US-equivalent price down to $2700, which is in line with what you'd expect. Here in the US, we pay through the nose for UK products as well. Pricing of American products abroad is the one downside to a weak dollar from your perspective.

The UK's tax policies are not Apple's fault (nor any other US-based retailer who does business in the UK), nor should Apple be expected to lower prices to compensate for your higher tax rate. You also can't necessarily expect a company to revise prices daily to keep up with exchange rates.

While the prices of Apple products in the UK aren't that much higher than the US, you can't just avoid adding VAT to the prices when comparing, as not all of the United States pay tax on sales, do they?

And for all your good points about the strong pound, and the relatively weak dollar, how does that explain that the Adobe CS3 Master Suite is double the price here, unless you buy the Academic version - which is $80 cheaper in the UK than the US?

It's corporation greed, that's what it is.

And I've still not had sufficient proof to convince me otherwise. Tax & currency don't quite cut it when the prices are just *that* different.

[JeffDM]

It's corporation greed, that's what it is.

And I've still not had sufficient proof to convince me otherwise. Tax & currency don't quite cut it when the prices are just *that* different.

No, that doesn't cover everything. Is there a local branch of Adobe that has to distribute and promote the product? Are the advertising expenses a lot higher? Do they have a lot of employees? What are the differences in the cost of employment? What are the customs fees/import taxes? What are the taxes on employees that are hidden from the employees? What are the costs of the additional regulatory burdens placed on businesses and employers? The US has a few taxes on employees that the employees don't see.

I can imagine that European countries have more to cover the costs of their much more robust social programs and their higher standards on businesses, but there are side-effects.

[Evangelion]

Taking into consideration the weakness of the dollar, the UK prices aren't much higher at all

Um, if dollers gets weaker when compared to Pound, then the price of Apple-hardware should go down in the UK. Apple is an American compnay that bills their good in dollars. If one pound goes up in value when compared to the dollar, then goods that are billed in dollars should get cheaper for people in UK.

An example: Finland uses Euros, Estonia uses Crowns. Suppose one Euro buys you 10 Crowns, and some product costs 200 Crowns in Estonia. If I went to Estonia and bought the product there, it would cost 200 / 10 = 20 euros. Now, suppose that value of Crown goes down when compared to Euro. Now one Euro gets you 15 Crowns. That product would still cost 200 Crowns, in Euros it would cost me 200 / 15 = 13.3 euros.

However, with a stronger dollar, you'd see extremely similar prices to the US retail price (before VAT).

You have it completely opposite. Stronger dollar (when compared to Sterling and Euro) would mean that products that are billed in dollars would get more expensive in Europe. Weaker dollar would mean that the product should cost less.

[JeffDM]

Off topic, but this reminds me of something on the news I saw yesterday where a new tax law in Illinois I think would make small businesses who have $3,000,000 and $200,000 in profit would go from paying something like $20,000 in taxes to something like $56,000 in taxes. People say these companies will go bankrupt. I'll admit, I don't really know anything about economics, but why will they go bankrupt? Last time I checked $200,000 in PROFITS > $56,000

They might not go bankrupt, but if a business is taxed too heavily, then that reduces the incentive to invest more into the business. If hiring ten more people to expand the business means that you go over that line, then it's easier to avoid that. Also, if the return is too low, there is a greater risk that owner might decide to do something else with his time or invest in a different state.

[bigandy]

No, that doesn't cover everything. Is there a local branch of Adobe that has to distribute and promote the product? Are the advertising expenses a lot higher? Do they have a lot of employees? What are the differences in the cost of employment? What are the customs fees/import taxes? What are the taxes on employees that are hidden from the employees? What are the costs of the additional regulatory burdens placed on businesses and employers? The US has a few taxes on employees that the employees don't see.

I can imagine that European countries have more to cover the costs of their much more robust social programs and their higher standards on businesses, but there are side-effects.

no-bloody-where near enough to double the price of Adobe products.

see my original example - Retail Master Suite double US price. Academic Master Suite cheaper than US.

there's a large amount of stuff that's just *waaay* more expensive here, but there's also a bit that's the same price. why is that? how can one company get away with selling something the same price either side of the pond, while another doesn't...?

it just doesn't add up. sorry.

[JeffDM]

no-bloody-where near enough to double the price of Adobe products.

see my original example - Retail Master Suite double US price. Academic Master Suite cheaper than US.


I know the prices are a lot higher for Adobe, I wasn't contesting that. You didn't need to repeat yourself.


there's a large amount of stuff that's just *waaay* more expensive here, but there's also a bit that's the same price. why is that? how can one company get away with selling something the same price either side of the pond, while another doesn't...?

What do you have that is the same price as what is in the US? Is it in a comparable industry?

[johnee]

well at the prices of the pro systems, it's nice they throw in a little extra

[EagerDragon]

They should offer a free or highly discounted server version with 5 licenses for home use.

See, if the general public knows how to use OSX server, then there is no knowledge vacumn when moving to the unlimited later.

I would rather all Mac's came with a 5 license server. A lot of us has 2 to 4 Mac's, plus Airport Base stations, plus Apple TV, etc.

Also the server version would be great training for everyone on how to set up file sharing, web servers, application servers, mail servers, etc......

[oogje]

According to Apple's Q1 2007 Unaudited Summary Data sheet, Q1 2007 Revenue for the Americas was $3,498,000,000 for 625,000 CPU units. Revenue for Europe was $1,242,000,000 for 491,000 CPU units.

Granted, I don't know what these number "really" represent, but on the surface it would seem the European prices are not translating to greater revenue as one might think if Apple was just being greedy.

[brianus]

* Note that the "10-client" version is only referring to the number of concurrent AppleShare (AFP) users that may be connected at once. There's no limit on simultaneous SMB (Windows sharing), NFS, ssh, mail, web, etc connections. Frankly, I'm not sure why they even bother to differentiate between 10-client and unlimited for AFP anymore.

Whoa, really? That's the only difference? I wish that were explained more clearly in Apple's promotional materials. And here I thought it was basically crippled if you were gonna run a web or mail server..

[matthew24]

They should offer a free or highly discounted server version with 5 licenses for home use.

See, if the general public knows how to use OSX server, then there is no knowledge vacumn when moving to the unlimited later.

I would rather all Mac's came with a 5 license server. A lot of us has 2 to 4 Mac's, plus Airport Base stations, plus Apple TV, etc.

Also the server version would be great training for everyone on how to set up file sharing, web servers, application servers, mail servers, etc......

Great post, thanks. I am considering OS X server, could use it mightily for my career, at the moment the price is just too steep.

[macnews]

Would be nice if this was true & US customers got the same deal. I work in an elementary school district and only use Macs. This can help save us money. While we already get a discount for this for being aschool, it's not that much of a discount.

I kinda like Mac OS X Server. Makes administering users and stuff like that easier. However, Remote Desktop is a little too "Big Brother"-ish for me.

I also work in education and Remote Desktop is a God send! Yes, it is "Big Brother" - ish, however, as some one else pointed out if you are big brother then you can control HOW that power is used. And trust me, it is nice to be able to use it in order to do things like solve people's computer problems w/o having to run across campus. Sure, I could spy on them but I choose not to.

Examples where ARD (Apple Remote Desktop) has saved me a ton of time:
- I get a call at 6pm (I'm at home with my family). The user is having problems with their client machine. I log in, find out it is user error and problem is fixed in 2 minutes. A 2 minute problem fixed w/o me driving the 10 minutes to school, one way.

- a new staff member wasn't set up correctly and doesn't have access to all the share points. I'm at home taking care of sick kids. I log in to the server via ARD and give her access. I look good, she is happy.

- a string of meetings keeps me busy all morning. I just sit down at my desk when I get a call someone a few buildings away can't print. I ARD in to their computer only to find out they don't have the right printer selected. I "fix" it in seconds. They are happy and I didn't have to leave my office.

The last example, or some various form of it happens the most frequently. It isn't always user error but it is very nice to troubleshoot from my desk w/o having to traverse buildings fixing 1-5 minute problems.

Oh, did I mention my job isn't actually doing mac repairs? No, I just help out because it doesn't take many people to maintain the mac os. Also, ARD isn't a tied in to OSX server. I use ARD on my laptop and most often fix client machines. It is nice to use with the server, don't get me wrong, but it is not tied in to server.

[JeffDM]

To add to that, I don't know if ARD can do it, but VNC can be set such that it requires the user to click a warning window to accept an incoming connection, so they can clean up their "act" before allowing the admin to control the computer. With that setting, there's no way for the admin to "spy" on the desktop without the user having accepted it.

[oogje]

Just to avoid any confusion...

A VNC server is built into Mac OS X (client and server). It's activated under System Preferences in the Sharing pane under Apple Remote Desktop. You can connect remotely with a free VNC client such as Chicken of the VNC.

Apple Remote Desktop is a separately purchased product, distinct from Mac OS X Server. US prices are $299 (10 Managed Systems) or $499 (Unlimited Managed Systems).

[EagerDragon]

Great post, thanks. I am considering OS X server, could use it mightily for my career, at the moment the price is just too steep.

Great for training, should get a few less latte's and save to get it.
If it was n ot for my first personnal computer, I would not have gotten to my current salary and I would probably would have been in the unemployent line a few times.

Invest into the future, btw you can run server in a mini, you don't need a $4000 machine to learn it.

[gnasher729]

You're forgetting the R&D work and paying the coders and advertising that went into Server.

No. If I had no intent of ever buying Server, and I order it because it is free (possibly by mistake), take the box and put it on my shelf and never ever use it, the only cost to Apple is the cost of making that box.

[HawaiiMacAddict]

Aloha everyone,

I have a question about Tiger Server. Currently I have a Core Duo iMac and a Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro. Assuming I get to add a Mac Pro to the mix, running either Tiger or Leopard Server, can I use the Mac Pro to download updates for all three Macs (kind of like WSUS on the Windows side) and just have the iMac and the MacBook Pro connect to the Mac Pro to download their respective updates? I'm assuming that because one is a Core Duo and the other a Core 2 Duo that not all patches would apply to both computers.

I would love, first off, to get a Mac Pro :D If I were to get one, I would really like to get OS X Server put on top of it (it will most likely be Leopard, or its successor, before I get the OK from the wife to buy a Mac Pro anyway), as I would really like to see how it compares with Windows Server 2003. I've never seen Open Directory at work - I don't mean "at work", but rather working on a computer :D - actually, that's the one thing you won't see at your typical Apple Store, and I think that's one thing Apple can do to combat the "not for the enterprise" image.

Imagine if someone's child, someone who just happens to be a corporate purchaser, wants to purchase a Mac. Now imagine they visit an Apple Store, and this someone sees a Mac Pro running OS X Server, and sees how well it runs Open Directory. Then imagine this someone compares the price of OS X Server to that of, say, Windows Server 2003. I think, and balance this with the fact that I'm just a bit biased :D, but Apple could start realizing an upsurge in consideration for the enterprise market, if not outright Server purchases.

After all, the question is now: there exists now one computing platform on which all known OSs can be run, so why buy a PC? :D

:apple:HawaiiMacAddict

[Peace]

Aloha everyone,

I have a question about Tiger Server. Currently I have a Core Duo iMac and a Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro. Assuming I get to add a Mac Pro to the mix, running either Tiger or Leopard Server, can I use the Mac Pro to download updates for all three Macs (kind of like WSUS on the Windows side) and just have the iMac and the MacBook Pro connect to the Mac Pro to download their respective updates? I'm assuming that because one is a Core Duo and the other a Core 2 Duo that not all patches would apply to both computers.

I would love, first off, to get a Mac Pro :D If I were to get one, I would really like to get OS X Server put on top of it (it will most likely be Leopard, or its successor, before I get the OK from the wife to buy a Mac Pro anyway), as I would really like to see how it compares with Windows Server 2003. I've never seen Open Directory at work - I don't mean "at work", but rather working on a computer :D - actually, that's the one thing you won't see at your typical Apple Store, and I think that's one thing Apple can do to combat the "not for the enterprise" image.

Imagine if someone's child, someone who just happens to be a corporate purchaser, wants to purchase a Mac. Now imagine they visit an Apple Store, and this someone sees a Mac Pro running OS X Server, and sees how well it runs Open Directory. Then imagine this someone compares the price of OS X Server to that of, say, Windows Server 2003. I think, and balance this with the fact that I'm just a bit biased :D, but Apple could start realizing an upsurge in consideration for the enterprise market, if not outright Server purchases.

After all, the question is now: there exists now one computing platform on which all known OSs can be run, so why buy a PC? :D

:apple:HawaiiMacAddict

you can use OS X Server for updates for all your Macs.

I would study up on Server before opening it up to the internet though.

[dartzorichalcos]

Hey guys and girls, I been thinking of trying out Mac OS X Server on my mac but I want to know what the benefits are of the Server Edition? Is it really much better than the Non-Server Edition?

[Rocketman]

It is my understanding OSX enduser has 90% of the capabilities of server using basic unix tools but that server adds a fancy GUI and some Apple specific admin tools.

But there are sites that detail methods (formatted for geeks, not real people) on how to configure existing and freely downloadable stuff to duplicate "most" of the services.

What is needed is a simplified "how-to" for the typical Apple user to reconfigure their low-end intel macs running OSX to do "advanced" things.

Rocketman

[dartzorichalcos]

So the Server Edition is nothing that special except it has admin tools, good back-up system and use it to update other macs. I would rather use that money on Leopard and ram or hard drive upgrades.:)

[oogje]

So the Server Edition is nothing that special except it has admin tools, good back-up system and use it to update other macs. I would rather use that money on Leopard and ram or hard drive upgrades.:)

I don't know of any back-up system that comes with Mac OS X Server that doesn't come with regular Mac OS X.

[dartzorichalcos]

I don't know of any back-up system that comes with Mac OS X Server that doesn't come with regular Mac OS X.

Well I heard that somewhere but I am not sure if that is really true or not.

[Object-X]

Not sure what level developer you are but Select and Premier members get OS X Server for free.

Select and Premier members also get a $500 discount off of a Mac Pro purchase, so essentially you get OS X Server for free anyway.

[mustang_dvs]

Select and Premier members also get a $500 discount off of a Mac Pro purchase, so essentially you get OS X Server for free anyway.

Yes, but Select is $500 and Premiere is $2,500 -- so, unless you're going to actually be using the additional resources that come with membership, there's no monetary savings.

[Digitalclips]

So the Server Edition is nothing that special except it has admin tools, good back-up system and use it to update other macs. I would rather use that money on Leopard and ram or hard drive upgrades.:)

To me the whole point of OS X Server (I run both OS X Server and OS X on other Macs) is that is for an unattended Mac running 24/7 to provide services to the LAN or WAN. For example I'm running QT Streaming Server and Apache to name but two inbuilt services and I also run a 3rd party product called Webstar V. My Old G4 tower sits on a leased T1 connection (aka Co-Lo) with a bunch of static IPs, it's fifty miles from my home but this allows me to run web sites, stream video and do stuff I couldn't easily do from home on a Verizon domestic 5/15 Fios connection with dynamic IPs.

I can see the 'screen' of my remote Mac using VNC or ARD if I wish but most functions are performed with the admin tools used on the client side.

To my mind it's not intended for a normal user to run OS X server on the machine they use for normal work. In fact it would be a pain to do so (I tried it), but as I say for a remote machine or even a local LAN dedicated server it is fabulous for multitude of functions.

[brooker]

Wow, this is all very interesting. I haven't gotten to play with OS X Server at all, but it sounds like i could almost recreate all that functionality by configuring OSS packages? obviously i won't have apple support, but as an experienced admin, i could probably replicate most things.

Does anyone know if someone has created a how-to on recreating Server?

[Peace]

Here's the sneak peak for Leopard Server :

http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/leopard/

[matticus008]

Um, if dollers gets weaker when compared to Pound, then the price of Apple-hardware should go down in the UK. Apple is an American compnay that bills their good in dollars. If one pound goes up in value when compared to the dollar, then goods that are billed in dollars should get cheaper for people in UK.
No. It seems counterintuitive at first, but Apple does not bill in dollars. It sells its products in the European market at fixed prices, just like in the US. Once the price is established, if the dollar falls, the product becomes comparatively cheaper in the US because the European prices remain the same--they're not reduced to account for the exchange rate change. A weak dollar means lower real profit for Apple in the US, because Apple doesn't change their prices daily, but it gives American customers a modest competitive advantage as a result.

This cuts both ways, however. When the dollar gains strength, European products begin to become "cheaper."

An example: Finland uses Euros, Estonia uses Crowns. Suppose one Euro buys you 10 Crowns, and some product costs 200 Crowns in Estonia. If I went to Estonia and bought the product there, it would cost 200 / 10 = 20 euros. Now, suppose that value of Crown goes down when compared to Euro. Now one Euro gets you 15 Crowns. That product would still cost 200 Crowns, in Euros it would cost me 200 / 15 = 13.3 euros.
Estonia is weaker currency in your example, so that proves exactly the point. The Crowns are the ones with the falling currency. To be accurate, you would have to put the fixed price in Euros.

If the product costs 200 Crowns or 20 Euros, and the Euro gains strength to 15 Crowns (over 10), but the prices remain the same, the 20 Euro product costs effectively more (because 20 Euros is now worth 300 Crowns, but EU customers are still paying 20 Euros for the same product and Americans, er, Estonians are still paying 200 Crowns). The people in Estonia get a cheaper price. Your basic idea is correct, but not for product pricing--only for daily exchange rates.
Weaker dollar would mean that the product should cost less.
Only if the price is changed to follow the daily exchange rate. It does not, which is why, as I said, this is an instance where the weak dollar hurts UK consumers.

That said, the weakness of the dollar is only one of two factors, as indicated. The other factor is purchasing power. There is a positive PPP working against UK customers--&#163;1 generally gets you less than $1.96 does. For example, the British equivalent of a gallon of milk costs about &#163;2 (~$4) IIRC, where the average US price is just below $3. And the British aren't buying American milk.
While the prices of Apple products in the UK aren't that much higher than the US, you can't just avoid adding VAT to the prices when comparing, as not all of the United States pay tax on sales, do they?
Sure you can. They list prices without VAT on their stores, and that's the comparison price. Apple can't avoid charging VAT any more than you can avoid paying it. If it makes products more expensive (and it does by a considerable margin [the average sales tax paid by US customers is around 7&#37; for comparison]), that's the doing of your government. It's not fair to claim that Apple is ripping customers off when the majority of the price difference is due to a local government-mandated surcharge and not the retailer/manufacturer's actual pricing.
And for all your good points about the strong pound, and the relatively weak dollar, how does that explain that the Adobe CS3 Master Suite
It doesn't. There are absolutely products that are overpriced by a large margin in some markets by the manufacturers. Apple hardware just isn't one of them.

Tax, currency, and the cost of international business can conceivably account for up to about a 35-40% bottom line increases in the UK. Anything beyond that is from some other cause (retailer markup, corporate greed, industry-specific compliance costs [e.g. the higher warranty standards on some products sold in the EU], and/or some other factor).

[sjo]

Tax, currency, and the cost of international business can conceivably account for up to about a 35-40% bottom line increases in the UK. Anything beyond that is from some other cause (retailer markup, corporate greed, industry-specific compliance costs [e.g. the higher warranty standards on some products sold in the EU], and/or some other factor).

Hmm, if the VAT in UK is 17.5% you're saying that it's 17.5-22.5% more expensive to do business in UK. If that really is the case, I'd think that the businesses would be fleeing UK. As far as I know, they're not, on the contrary, UK is attracting new businesses so I'd be inclined to believe you're mistaken.

[matticus008]

Hmm, if the VAT in UK is 17.5&#37; you're saying that it's 17.5-22.5% more expensive to do business in UK. If that really is the case, I'd think that the businesses would be fleeing UK. As far as I know, they're not, on the contrary, UK is attracting new businesses so I'd be inclined to believe you're mistaken.
It's not 17.5-22.5% more expensive to do business because the customers pay VAT to companies, which turn it over to the government. It's not like companies are eating the cost of VAT and struggling to make money. VAT has no impact on profitability because all computers are charged VAT in the countries that have it. Note that the 35-40% increase is a consumer price increase, not a business cost increase.

The US prices are a bad comparison to UK/EU prices incl VAT, because US prices don't include any sort of VAT. Taxation is external, conducted by states individually. The rate of sales tax is added to the price later in the process. It doesn't matter to Apple whether the tax is 0% or 5% or 50%, because all they do is add it to their retail price and collect from the customer.

[sebastianlewis]

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/King-KingdomHearts/Picture7.png

:eek:
Sebastian :apple:

[sebastianlewis]

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c370/King-KingdomHearts/Picture7.png

:eek:
Sebastian :apple:

Bleh I just reread it... apparently it's not in the US store... which is what I posted an image of -_-

Sebastian

[Digitalclips]

Wow, this is all very interesting. I haven't gotten to play with OS X Server at all, but it sounds like i could almost recreate all that functionality by configuring OSS packages? obviously i won't have apple support, but as an experienced admin, i could probably replicate most things.

Does anyone know if someone has created a how-to on recreating Server?

Seems a lot of work and even then you would not have all the wonderful client applications. You should check out the real thing.

[simie]

New-Zealand store does not offer OSX Server with the Mac Pro.
French and Spanish stores OSX Server is free. Probably most other are offering it free as well.

[synth3tik]

I wish I would have gotten a free copy of OS X server.

[miniConvert]

OS X Server doesn't include iLife. It's also far more fragile than OS X, and an average user could probably screw it up in just a few minutes.

Offering this for free probably isn't a good idea, especially when OS X Server isn't supported under Applecare - the pro support is insanely expensive and getting support off the web is difficult, not least because most support articles date back to older versions.

I love OS X Server, but it's not something that should be used on any machine other than a full on server.

[ChrisA]

What does Apple include with "Server" that is not part of the normal Mac OS X that is not already free.

http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/



OK I looked at the above URL. Tthe question remains. "What in "Server" is not available for free on the Internet." Every service included if you read between the lines on the Aple site you can see which package thev'e included. Seems to me what you are paying for is for Apple to have done the leg work to bundle this up and put it on a DVD.

[brooker]

Seems a lot of work and even then you would not have all the wonderful client applications. You should check out the real thing.

You are probably right... not worth my time to get everything set up and working together, if i can't do it all in 10 hours or less.

If it comes free to the US stores soon, i will definitely check it out. or i will sign up as a developer to get my Ocho, and get it through there (or wait and get leopard server thru there? will that work?). I will wait til NAB and see what happens.

[Digitalclips]

You are probably right... not worth my time to get everything set up and working together, if i can't do it all in 10 hours or less.

If it comes free to the US stores soon, i will definitely check it out. or i will sign up as a developer to get my Ocho, and get it through there (or wait and get leopard server thru there? will that work?). I will wait til NAB and see what happens.

I am drooling at the thought of something at NAB that might be a 'suped' up 8 core with better graphics card and Blu-Ray ... Can but hope :)

[Digitalclips]

OS X Server doesn't include iLife. It's also far more fragile than OS X, and an average user could probably screw it up in just a few minutes.

Offering this for free probably isn't a good idea, especially when OS X Server isn't supported under Applecare - the pro support is insanely expensive and getting support off the web is difficult, not least because most support articles date back to older versions.

I love OS X Server, but it's not something that should be used on any machine other than a full on server.

100&#37; correct. The average user couldn't even use OS X Server which is why this whole free copy is so weird. It is absolutely not for a user machine it is for a dedicated stand alone server running 24/7, nothing else.

[shawnce]

OK I looked at the above URL. Tthe question remains. "What in "Server" is not available for free on the Internet." Every service included if you read between the lines on the Aple site you can see which package thev'e included. Seems to me what you are paying for is for Apple to have done the leg work to bundle this up and put it on a DVD.

You look at the management application and related utilities they provide as part of the OS? Have you ever tried setting up such services? Mac OS X Server makes it really easy to setup and maintain.

It is a great solution for SMB.

[Digital Skunk]

I just hope that they include iLife or iWork as a standard to OS 10.5 I would still buy them if they were separate but it would be nice to have them as a bonus to purchasing Leopard.

Or whatever... I am sure this was a typo on the webmasters part.

[Max Payne]

I think you are asking for too much. My MacBook Pro came with iLife 06 pre-installed just as my friends' MacBooks, but iWork. No... I doubt Apple will bundle iWork in leopard, but we sure can hope so.

[Di9it8]

New-Zealand store does not offer OSX Server with the Mac Pro.
French and Spanish stores OSX Server is free. Probably most other are offering it free as well.

As I checked earlier, the far eastern sites namely HK Singapore, Pacific Australia and NZ do not even offer any software choice, either Tiger or Server.
Clearly none of the site programmers are looking at this site!!!:D :rolleyes:

[brooker]

... It's also far more fragile than OS X, and an average user could probably screw it up in just a few minutes.


What exactly is the difference that makes this true?

it seems like since regular OS X already has database and webserver and file server capabilities etc, why not just build on top of that?

[Di9it8]

OS X Server ...... It's also far more fragile than OS X, and an average user could probably screw it up in just a few minutes.


The nature of the server version is that it has to be more robust, not more fragile.
If an install is not properly done, then problems will arise.
Installation of servers should be done by experienced users or server experts, it stands to reason??

[mdriftmeyer]

100% correct. The average user couldn't even use OS X Server which is why this whole free copy is so weird. It is absolutely not for a user machine it is for a dedicated stand alone server running 24/7, nothing else.

I suppose you never used NEXTSTEP/Openstep, correct?

Why do I ask?

Client and Server were ONE PRODUCT.

[Rocketman]

Let's say every iBook, iPhone or Mac has a feature like combined Leopard and OSX Server and ARD.

Let's further say whatever implementation is required is possible including different partitions and logins. Layered logins.

Let's further say this device has full broadband internet acess wirelessly vis ATT Edge 1.0 (2.5G wireless), wifi a,b,g,n, wimax .16, and maybe s for OMPC.

This device can now do end user tasks, limited webserver tasks with load-off to co-lo. It is with you.

Hmmm.

Top 20 functions lists . . .

Rocketman

[miniConvert]

What exactly is the difference that makes this true?

it seems like since regular OS X already has database and webserver and file server capabilities etc, why not just build on top of that?
For example, changing the IP address of a machine running OS X Server screws up things like Open Directory. There's quite a detailed, command line, set of instructions that have to be followed in order to keep all of the services on the machine functional. There are also security implications if the user does not correctly configure and maintain the system, given the extra services that are running/can be run. As you say, standard OS X already has plenty of 'advanced' features suitable for anybody who isn't running a full on server - my message is don't get OS X Server just because it's free!

The nature of the server version is that it has to be more robust, not more fragile.
If an install is not properly done, then problems will arise.
Installation of servers should be done by experienced users or server experts, it stands to reason??
It's robust when it's correctly configured and then left to do its job. It's fragile in a sense that if you configure it incorrectly it is unforgiving - it's much less foolproof than standard OS X and there's a void of good documentation for a lot of tasks.

Installation and maintenance of servers should indeed be done by experienced persons, but having OS X Server available for free means that any old sod is quite possibly going to select it regardless of whether they need it or not.

I think we could end up with a glut of users who are trapped without software support and wonder why the hell they spec'd a server operating system for their desktop.

I'll say it again - I love OS X Server, it's fab, but it needs a premium pricetag to keep it from ending up on consumer machines.

[kiang]

I'm pretty sure this isn't a mistake, nor I think it will come to the US any soon.
you see: in Europe, especially out of the UK, Mac has almost NO marketshare. right now, on the personal computing side, mac is gaining market share right now, and you can really se more and more people are using macs, but for network severs, they are really NOWHERE in Europe, MS has the high ground.
So I'm thinking this is just a strategy to spread some more Mac based network servers throughout Europe.

[bjoggi]

As an Apple Authorized Reseller I can confirm that the 10-client version of Mac OS X Server is bundled free with the Mac Pro.

I have no idea why it is this way, but we can imagine that they're giving a discount before the launch of Mac OS X Leopard.

[SimonTheSoundMa]

I like it. I'd like to do some domain type stuff in my house. But I really don't want to have to BUY server for it. Maybe Apple just wants to make Server more accesable for IT admins who want to fool around with it. If I'm using it personally and am rather comfortable using it -- it's more likely that I'll recommend it for the office/company I work for/with -- and throw in a purchase of an XServe/XRAID to boot. I think it's smart.
Most of the apps for Server are built into the normal version, some you may have to install but they are available via fink or Darwin Ports if you want to use those. Server just has a GUI to use these apps rather than just using terminal.

[brooker]

As an Apple Authorized Reseller I can confirm that the 10-client version of Mac OS X Server is bundled free with the Mac Pro.

I have no idea why it is this way, but we can imagine that they're giving a discount before the launch of Mac OS X Leopard.

I was just thinking this was a really likely reason for this. I could imagine a lot of people not waiting (ah, waiters) to buy server since Leopard is coming so soon. Maybe free will make people think, "i'll take free now!"

So why not in the US?

and...

Does that mean we will see Leopard sooner than expected? How long before the release of Leopard would this make sense to do? a full 2 months?

[kiang]

So why not in the US?

I'm pretty sure this isn't a mistake, nor I think it will come to the US any soon.
you see: in Europe, especially out of the UK, Mac has almost NO marketshare. right now, on the personal computing side, mac is gaining market share right now, and you can really se more and more people are using macs, but for network severs, they are really NOWHERE in Europe, MS has the high ground.
So I'm thinking this is just a strategy to spread some more Mac based network servers throughout Europe.

;)

[SPUY767]

This is totally sweet! Wish they'd offer server up at a discount for those of us who already sprung for the Mac Pro...

Yeah, no kidding.

[Attonine]

I'm pretty sure this isn't a mistake, nor I think it will come to the US any soon.
you see: in Europe, especially out of the UK, Mac has almost NO marketshare. right now, on the personal computing side, mac is gaining market share right now, and you can really se more and more people are using macs, but for network severs, they are really NOWHERE in Europe, MS has the high ground.
So I'm thinking this is just a strategy to spread some more Mac based network servers throughout Europe.

I immediately thought this is the case too. A simple attempt to gain more market share in the UK and the various countries where this is being offered.

[Di9it8]

Installation and maintenance of servers should indeed be done by experienced persons, but having OS X Server available for free means that any old sod is quite possibly going to select it regardless of whether they need it or not.


Surely using server software & hardware are elements that require expertise that will have been learnt, or will require training. This is something that Apple could indicate on the product.
The fact that a MacPro can be used as an office wide server is something the purchaser should be told about, and the benefits informed. Apple can also point the user in the direction of training (it must be to their benefit) as happy and contented customers are much better than complaining customers:rolleyes:

[ryanw]

OS X Server doesn't include iLife. It's also far more fragile than OS X, and an average user could probably screw it up in just a few minutes.

Offering this for free probably isn't a good idea, especially when OS X Server isn't supported under Applecare - the pro support is insanely expensive and getting support off the web is difficult, not least because most support articles date back to older versions.

I love OS X Server, but it's not something that should be used on any machine other than a full on server.

THANK YOU! My thoughts exactly... I've been down that road of running OSX Server as a workstation. If you are not using the machine as a SERVER and it is a WORKSTATION, then don't run SERVER on this machine. SERVER doesn't perform any faster then the client version, if anything it's got more things running out of the box to slow it down.

[Dean812@msn.com]

Slow news day or what?! This site is getting worse and worse. It's obviously a typo and not a freebie. Come on man, wheres the editor?

[McRonald]

I am pretty convinced that the English offer must be genuine, since the offer is also available on the Apple Resale site in the Netherlands.

[BRLawyer]

i would have to agree here.....but you never know....

It's definitely NOT a mistake, as the Swiss Store also shows it and updates the order status accordingly, without any increase in the price...the only explanation is that OS X Server Tiger is gonna be replaced pretty soon by OS X Server Leopard...that's all.

[bankshot]

For example, changing the IP address of a machine running OS X Server screws up things like Open Directory.

Maybe so, but that's only if you enable Open Directory and configure the machine to use it for authentication. At least in Panther Server, a "standard" user would probably stick to the default NetInfo database. They'd have to go around and change things to get Open Directory. Maybe that's different in Tiger Server -- I don't have direct experience with it.

There's quite a detailed, command line, set of instructions that have to be followed in order to keep all of the services on the machine functional. There are also security implications if the user does not correctly configure and maintain the system, given the extra services that are running/can be run.

Huh, what? Again, is Tiger Server such a horrible product that it requires this constant maintenance or it'll go down in an instant? I find this extremely hard to believe. For me, Panther Server was a breeze to setup and it remains running quite well to this day without any maintenance. Just like the client version. What is all this extra maintenance that you speak of?

As for security, I don't know off the top of my head what extra services are enabled in the default OS X Server install, but they're all incredibly easy to turn off or firewall off in Server Admin. Really, that's the whole point of OS X Server -- the heart of it is in the nice admin tools you get.

Installation and maintenance of servers should indeed be done by experienced persons, but having OS X Server available for free means that any old sod is quite possibly going to select it regardless of whether they need it or not.

I think we could end up with a glut of users who are trapped without software support and wonder why the hell they spec'd a server operating system for their desktop.

I'll say it again - I love OS X Server, it's fab, but it needs a premium pricetag to keep it from ending up on consumer machines.

You're right in that the server admin tools expose extra settings and functionality that are hidden in standard OS X. But is that really such a huge problem? I don't see it. It's easy to screw up the standard OS by changing certain settings or deleting certain files. At some point, the OS has to assume that the user knows what they're doing and let them. Otherwise you get Vista's "security" features. ;)

Inexperienced users come in two flavors - those who don't touch anything they're not comfortable with, for fear of messing something up; and those who blindly click and change settings and hope for the best. The second kind will do just as much damage in Server as in standard OS X, and I'd argue the first kind won't do damage in either case. The click-and-damage users are just getting what's coming to them anyway. :p And for every one of those who chooses the "free" Server option that they don't need, I'll bet there's a bunch more power users who either know what they're doing or know enough to research before doing things, and why deny those power users a chance to utilize some of the extra server functionality? It's a big win for them.

As for iLife (commented in a few other posts), of course OS X Server doesn't come with it. No current version of OS X comes with it. :rolleyes: Older versions of iLife refused to install on Server, but for no real reason. The installer simply looked for a certain file that identified the OS as Server, and if you temporarily moved that file out of the way, it'd install and run perfectly. Again, I haven't had any problems with any client-oriented software on Panther Server. I assume (but don't know) that Tiger Server is the same.

my message is don't get OS X Server just because it's free!

My message is don't get OS X Server unless you plan to utilize its extra features. ;)

[bankshot]

Whoa, really? That's the only difference? I wish that were explained more clearly in Apple's promotional materials. And here I thought it was basically crippled if you were gonna run a web or mail server..

From http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/specs.html
Mac OS X Server is available in 10-client and unlimited-client editions to meet the needs of your organization. Client restrictions apply only to simultaneous file sharing services for Mac and PC clients.

This does say "Mac and PC" so maybe they included SMB sharing restrictions in Tiger Server. It's ambiguous. Though that would be easy to defeat, as you could just grab the free version of Samba and use that instead of the Apple-provided version.

But there are apparently still no other restrictions.

[mdriftmeyer]

UK Store no longer shows this offer.

[virginoforleans]

The last moment I checked, that is after reading previous message, both the British/UK and the Irish, and also the Dutch store all showed this offer.

[mikeh123]

UK Store no longer shows this offer. -

Incorrect

Yes it does as of Tuesday 10th April you can buy OS X server for "free" wih a mac pro.

As an aside this offer is also showing in both the consumer apple store and the resellers apple store.

Also if you notice the price of unlimted server has dropped and also note that the price of the unliimted is still a little more than the cost of the 10 users.

So it is not a simple mistake it is a complete price revision.

Go fill your boots. If your buying a mac pro its a decent enough deal.

[Spectrum]

It's showing as a £349 option to me on the UK store. £699 for the unlimited client. Seems like it was a mistake after all.

[richardexeter]

Offer is valid.

The UK website still displays it and to double check I called Apple UK who confirmed it.

Would be useful it a was made a bit clearer though.

[mikeh123]

It's showing as a £349 option to me on the UK store. £699 for the unlimited client. Seems like it was a mistake after all.


You are indeed now correct. It does show at the old full prices :)

[richardexeter]

Hmm, well it's does now look like a mistake.

The pricing has changed back as posted above and another call to Apple results in a slightly confusing 'the £349 / 699 pricing is correct'

[ClimbingTheLog]

For example, changing the IP address of a machine running OS X Server screws up things like Open Directory. There's quite a detailed, command line, set of instructions that have to be followed in order to keep all of the services on the machine functional.

This is actually much better in Tiger than it used to be.

Still, there has to be a really good reason to use an OSX server instead of a linux server, in my book. XServes are fussy - I've had entire machines relegated to the 'lemon' pile that could never be made to work (while others were fine). OSX makes a great client. Server-side is a bit fragile and buggy for non-basic things. But for someone who can't run a linux box, it's a good second option.

IMHO, OSX Server should be perpetually free with XServe. Raise the price a couple hundred bucks if necessary. I also advocate Apple selling a $300 lifetime (machine) subscription to OSX and iLife, but they haven't listened yet. When people were going out to buy Vista would have been the right time to introduce it, so I guess they're not ever going to listen to me. :cool:

[miniConvert]

Maybe so, but that's only if you enable Open Directory and configure the machine to use it for authentication. At least in Panther Server, a "standard" user would probably stick to the default NetInfo database. They'd have to go around and change things to get Open Directory. Maybe that's different in Tiger Server -- I don't have direct experience with it.
I use OS X Server (Tiger) every day. You should try it some time. The various versions of OS X Server vary quite a bit.
Huh, what? Again, is Tiger Server such a horrible product that it requires this constant maintenance or it'll go down in an instant? I find this extremely hard to believe. For me, Panther Server was a breeze to setup and it remains running quite well to this day without any maintenance. Just like the client version. What is all this extra maintenance that you speak of?
You're exaggerating what I said, and again I'd urge you to try Tiger Server some time - after all, they're not giving Panther Server away free :p

For anyone who isn't buying the Mac Pro as a server it makes far more sense to get the client OS installed. My fear is that inexperienced users may well choose Server just because it's free now, and then find no software support under Applecare and a very unfriendly looking interface with no iLife when they log in.

Apple could improve this with more information at purchasing time on the online stores, so I agree that being free is not, in itself, a bad thing. Alternatively they could live a little and bundle OS X and OS X Server discs with each Server machine. In any case, I'd imagine it's quite likely that once Leopard Server arrives they'll start charging again - and that looks quite different again to Tiger, so I'll have plenty of new chances to screw it up :)