the ghetto

[jefhatfield]

...no, not the elvis song

but i was wondering, how many of you live or work in the ghetto?

i spend my fridays working in a deceptively nice looking, but rather dangerous ghetto and since i am self employed, i eventually plan to work elsewhere that day...too many close calls

[cc bcc]

The only ghettos I know I've seen in american movies... We don't have them here. Strange that your government lets it happen, but it's a side effect of short term politics.
Can you tell me a bit about these ghettos? Can I expect burn out cars there, is the police afraid to go there, are the houses deteriorated (sp?), half the streetlights not working? I'm just throwing some random questions. I've seen these kind of ghettos in south america, probably very different from north american ghettos.
I've read elsewhere that you were helping junkies there, keep up the good work!

[NavyIntel007]

Actually it's not really politics but more of American Sociology. Originally the Rich move from the big cities into the suburbs, the middle class follows because taxes are lower outside of the cities pushes the poorer folks into the inner cities. Most small businesses also evacuate to the suburbs to stay with the population trends. It has more to do with idealogy than politics (the picket fence mentality of the post war babyboomers).

I think this trend is starting to reverse though. Some cities are getting so big that it doesn't make sense to drive to downtown from where you live. Miami is a perfect example of this. The metropolis has grown to the point that the real outskirts of the urban area is 3 counties away. High rise condominiums are going up all over downtown Miami, and Miami beach. But even then, people will still be willing to drive 5 MPH to get to work from West Palm Beach.

Ghettos exist all over the world. You may not see them in the Netherlands because instead of them being in the middle of town, they are on the outskirts. That is YOUR society. The well off don't want to live with the Not so well off. I'm sorry, but it seems like a lot of people want to blame every little problem in the US on the political system and it's really not that easy. That's like the Mayor saying to the rich "please move out of our city so that you can lower the tax base, hurt inner city schools, roads, raise crime and prevent me from getting my raise." No mayor wants you to move out of the city, that's just stupid.

[jelloshotsrule]

i used to live in harlem, ny, usa. does that count?

i wouldn't call it a "ghetto" per se... at least not all of it.

[NavyIntel007]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i used to live in harlem, ny, usa. does that count?

i wouldn't call it a "ghetto" per se... at least not all of it.

I think it was once, but I've heard it's coming back. I think because people are migrating back into the cities. They can get cheaper, bigger houses and remodel them and still be close to work.

[e-coli]

Originally posted by cc bcc
The only ghettos I know I've seen in american movies... We don't have them here. Strange that your government lets it happen, but it's a side effect of short term politics.
Can you tell me a bit about these ghettos? Can I expect burn out cars there, is the police afraid to go there, are the houses deteriorated (sp?), half the streetlights not working? I'm just throwing some random questions. I've seen these kind of ghettos in south america, probably very different from north american ghettos.
I've read elsewhere that you were helping junkies there, keep up the good work!

Have you ever been to Detroit? It's the biggest ghetto we have in this country. ;)

And yes, it's pretty much the way you described it.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Actually it's not really politics but more of American Sociology. Originally the Rich move from the big cities into the suburbs, the middle class follows because taxes are lower outside of the cities pushes the poorer folks into the inner cities. Most small businesses also evacuate to the suburbs to stay with the population trends. It has more to do with idealogy than politics (the picket fence mentality of the post war babyboomers).

I think this trend is starting to reverse though. Some cities are getting so big that it doesn't make sense to drive to downtown from where you live. Miami is a perfect example of this. The metropolis has grown to the point that the real outskirts of the urban area is 3 counties away. High rise condominiums are going up all over downtown Miami, and Miami beach. But even then, people will still be willing to drive 5 MPH to get to work from West Palm Beach.

Ghettos exist all over the world. You may not see them in the Netherlands because instead of them being in the middle of town, they are on the outskirts. That is YOUR society. The well off don't want to live with the Not so well off.

california is a little different than the east coast and many of the ghettos or dangerous, crime ridden areas are not always in the inner city

what makes it different here than nyc or anywhere else is a mystery to me

it does seem just like you say when you mention that the rich don't want to live with the poor...many of the poor in the more dangerous areas where i live are white, which may not fit a stereotype that one sees in the movies, and the crime rate is really high for a suburb...the next most prevalent ethnic group in the poor area is hispanic

the area used to be heavily african american but has changed over the last two decades

while real estate prices in the poor area have gone through the roof, one might expect the types of crimes to be more mild or diminish...but quite to the contrary, the most heinous baby eater type killers seem to like to reside in california more than anywhere else...not your typical bank robber with a weapon, but the really bizzare stuff which seemed to have started with charles manson and never stopped

nothing is what it seems in the area where i live but somehow there are a couple of cities where the drug dealing seems to congregate and where the high price of drugs seem to bring in crime and especially violent crime

being a volunteer social worker i have seen some of the arguments, from both the left and right, that call for the decriminalization of drugs, and it seems to make sense

innocent people are more likely to get affected by the violent crime that tears apart the neighborhood more than they get affected directly by addiction

i have never heard of an innocent bystander getting killed by a flying joint or flying hyperdermic needle, but with drugs making the dealers richer than ivy league grads, there seems to be the unpleasant fact that the illegal drug trade does produce innocent victims who get hit by flying bullets

[Kyle?]

Flint, MI, is GhettoTown, USA. I attend a pretty decent university here, but there aren't many other decent places around here. The state actually took over the city finances after the mayor was recalled (that can't be a fun job).

[Ugg]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Ghettos exist all over the world. You may not see them in the Netherlands because instead of them being in the middle of town, they are on the outskirts. That is YOUR society. The well off don't want to live with the Not so well off. I'm sorry, but it seems like a lot of people want to blame every little problem in the US on the political system and it's really not that easy. That's like the Mayor saying to the rich "please move out of our city so that you can lower the tax base, hurt inner city schools, roads, raise crime and prevent me from getting my raise." No mayor wants you to move out of the city, that's just stupid.

Ghettos do not exist ALL over the world. You would be well advised to do a little research before you make such a grandiose statement. There are, of course, high rent areas in European cities just as there are low rent areas but the term ghetto can really only be applied to pre-WWII Europe (jews) and America (blacks and hispanics) .

Paris has banlieus that could arguably be called ghettos and the UK has areas that may qualify but by and large, ghettos in this day and age are American.

I would argue that the creation of ghettos in this country has to do with poor urban planning which IS political. Heavy subsidies for services and highways has led to the sprawling mess that we call America.

Portland, Oregon is one of the few exceptions, on the west coast anyway. Its excellent planning has led to a quality of life rarely found on the west coast, whereas housing costs are moderate. Its mass transit system is amazing for a city its size.

Ghettos are the result of poor short-term planning as cc bcc has stated and America will pay the price for a long time to come.

[trebblekicked]

i split my high school days between an academic high school (for the AP stuff) and a high school for the arts (a lá Fame) for acting (CAPA). CAPA was in homewood, a certified ghetto in pittsburgh, one of the more dangerous places in the city. It's sad that they relegated the arts to that place; it kept a lot of talented kids from persuing the arts further.

anyway, we had a secrutiy guard at the door the whole day to keep us in (and others out). our performances/recitals/gallery openings were either held "off campus" in less dangerous neighborhoods or with security guards at their posts again.

it was a good experience to have to see that kind of thing every day, but i'm glad i don't have to anymore.

[iGav]

Originally posted by e-coli
Have you ever been to Detroit? It's the biggest ghetto we have in this country. ;)

And yes, it's pretty much the way you described it.

Detroit?? Bah.... :p You ought to come to Walthamstow in East London mate... :p :p :p Go through Tottenham first though, that should warm you up nicely!! heh-heh!!

[hvfsl]

There are lots of ghettos of islamic people in the Uk. A lot of them just seem to settle in their own communities and keep themselves to themselves. I live near an islamic area and we invited the whole road to our new years party (including some of the islamic families, most of the islamic families never even bothered to acknowledge we had even invited then and none of them turned up while most of the rest of the street turned up.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by iGAV
Detroit?? Bah.... :p You ought to come to Walthamstow in East London mate... :p :p :p Go through Tottenham first though, that should warm you up nicely!! heh-heh!!

while i was a student in london, i got to see a freind who lived in the east end and there were some scary looking areas there

i had an opportunity to get a government IT job offer in urban dc but in a really dangerous neighborhood and the pay of the job was not enough to afford any better...i thought northern california was expensive but comes nowhere near the rents in some major eastern cities

the most expensive city in my area is san francisco and the cost of living index is 2.0...twice the average cost of living in america...new york and other similar eastern cities are above 3 and manhattan proper is 4.4!

[medea]

I was born in Miami and we pretty much lived in a ghetto then or maybe it was more of a pseudo-ghetto, never the less it was not the safest place and no I would never move back to Miami.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
the most expensive city in my area is san francisco and the cost of living index is 2.0...twice the average cost of living in america...new york and other similar eastern cities are above 3 and manhattan proper is 4.4!

i find it hard to believe that manhattan proper is over twice as expensive as san francisco... last i heard, they were pretty close..

as for other eastern cities... which ones? i don't think anything except nyc tops sf....

or are you just pulling these out of your old tecchie arse? ;)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i find it hard to believe that manhattan proper is over twice as expensive as san francisco... last i heard, they were pretty close..

as for other eastern cities... which ones? i don't think anything except nyc tops sf....

or are you just pulling these out of your old tecchie arse? ;)

overall cost of living is really high in some areas...but there is no doubting that the rent is super high in san francisco, but not everything else

thank god for the location to the bread basket of the world, and that helps with our good grocery prices here in california

and add to that since the death or near death of dot.com, and the cost of living has definitely gone down in the bay area and the entire region

and real estate prices...wow, that's a kicker...people lost their shirts on that one...a dot.com era house near me was listed for 2.8 million but sold for 1.35 post dot.com

at the same time, we have not completely been destroyed as a state because of the tech downturn...but sometimes it seems that way

[MorganX]

All "class"-based societies will have a type of ghetto.

[Ugg]

Dictionary.com definition

ghet·to __ (_P_)__Pronunciation Key__(gt)
n. pl. ghet·tos or ghet·toes
A section of a city occupied by a minority group who live there especially because of social, economic, or legal pressure.

An often walled quarter in a European city to which Jews were restricted beginning in the Middle Ages.

Something that resembles the restriction or isolation of a city ghetto: ?trapped in ethnic or pink-collar managerial job ghettoes? (Diane Weathers).

[Italian, afterGhetto, island near Venice where Jews were made to live in the 16th century.]


Just so we're all on the same wavelength.

[cc bcc]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Ghettos exist all over the world. You may not see them in the Netherlands because instead of them being in the middle of town, they are on the outskirts. That is YOUR society. The well off don't want to live with the Not so well off. I'm sorry, but it seems like a lot of people want to blame every little problem in the US on the political system and it's really not that easy. That's like the Mayor saying to the rich "please move out of our city so that you can lower the tax base, hurt inner city schools, roads, raise crime and prevent me from getting my raise." No mayor wants you to move out of the city, that's just stupid.

I think it depends on the definition of ghettos. That's why I was asking about how you'd describe american ghettos. There is also a trend here for richer people to move out of the city. But it's all on a smaller scale. Amsterdam is our biggest city, not even a million people there.
There are parts where crime rates are much higher, where there are more dealers and junkies, but there isn't a place in the Netherlands where I wouldn't dare to walk in the middle of the night. Although I wouldn't like my girlfriend to walk there alone at night. So yeah, up to a certain extend, we have ghettos. I just don't think you could compare our ghettos with yours.
A large part of that comes from a somewhat good social security system, free drugs for notorious junks, efforts in city planning, recognized importance of social workers, smaller diferences between the rich and the poor, and no gunshops.

[skunk]

The original ghetto is in Venice, and is beautiful. I wouldn't mind living there at all.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by cc bcc

A large part of that comes from a somewhat good social security system, free drugs for notorious junks, efforts in city planning, recognized importance of social workers, smaller diferences between the rich and the poor, and no gunshops.

those are things many people in america are aiming to do...slowly but surely there have been some improvements

unfortunately, it took a deranged schizophrenic man who was obsessed with jody foster to get politicians mobilized in the cause for stricter guns laws after he shot the president and several others

america is a great country because of its ability to criticize itself and make changes to correct itself...in a little over two centuries, america has done humane and revolutionary things for good in a way that it might have taken other countries much more time to realize

democracy in a large part was invented by the greeks but it's amazing how fast the united states took to the ideals of fairness and made it such a positive force for the people

i don't much like the president we have now, but the good thing is that if many other americans don't like him either, the people of the country do have more than a fighting chance to get him out of office in 2004:D

[cc bcc]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
america is a great country because of its ability to criticize itself and make changes to correct itself...in a little over two centuries, america has done humane and revolutionary things for good in a way that it might have taken other countries much more time to realize

I see america taking much more time to realize things than some european countries, especialy northern europe. And self criticism isn't america's best property, actually I notice that a lot of criticism gets waved away as insulting or as being not patriotic. And the opinions often get polarized into Rep./Dem. or left/right, making it difficult for "rightwing" people supporting a "leftwing" idea, or reverse.

democracy in a large part was invented by the greeks but it's amazing how fast the united states took to the ideals of fairness and made it such a positive force for the people

There are always examples to compare it with that will make it seem "amazing", but look further and it's not amazing or fast at all.

I'm not sure if I understood you correctly, at first I thought you were being cynical, but I guess you were not.

[jefhatfield]

there are elements in this country that want to take away freedom of speech in the name of being patriotic...but they are in the minority

many here are outraged that president bush lied to us about weapons of mass destruction...if bush didn't have the right intenions attacking iraq, then that will backfire on his entire party

at this point in history, i know that europe is ahead of the united states in many ways...especially socially and in humane terms...but that doesn't make the united states a bad country

as you mention about america's polarization...that is overplayed in the press...the truth is the vast majority of americans are moderates and this president and the last one won being moderate

conservatives like bob dole, who ran in 96, were too conservative and that's what hurt his chances...on the democratic side, people like rev al sharpton will most likely be too liberal to capture the party's nomination

if the usa were so polarized, we would have nancy pelosi the ultra liberal or someone like her getting the democratic nomination against a jesse helms who would be representative of the conservatives

but in most us elections, it's the moderates who win their party's ticket

many democrats like some conservative ideals and a common type of democrat is the blue dog democrat who is socially liberal but fiscally conservative

and then there is the moderate republican like reagan, bush, and bush jr who are smart enough not to push hard for an overturn of roe v wade...an ultra conservative would make it their only cause and leave the rest of the country's issues in bad disrepair

i have hope for america even though invading iraq was not the best thing to do and insulting france was also stupid...when a fellow american cuts down france, i tell them that if it wasn't for france, we would have the queen on our coinage and have the british union jack flying on our poles...there would be no stars and stripes

and on the other side of the coin, if the us didn't enter world war I and II, guess who may have won the war then?

[cc bcc]

I stand corrected, although I'm not sure what that last remark has to do with it, other than some kind of proof that it's not all that bad, which I don't claim.

[jefhatfield]

mostly i think america came into the world wars with a good intention

but certainly this latest gulf war may have some truly selfish intentions and this is why a lot of people around the world are angry at the us

...and a lot of people within the us are not so happy about attacking iraq...the first gulf war had a lot more support because the us was defending kuwait who had been attacked so it was defensive

but this gulf was was offensively planned and the last time the us was involved in an offensive action of that proportion was when the white man killed and attacked the native americans...that will certainly stand as a black spot in our history forever

[cc bcc]

You don't want to know how many black spots we have in our history. We owned half the world (well, a large part) and behaved like animals there, raping, looting and selling the natives as slaves. It is refered to as the "Golden Century" in our history books, because it brought a lot of wealth to what is now the Netherlands. I think we, and many other western countries, still have a large dept to pay. Even when I didn't have anything to do with it personally, I still live in a rich country because of that, and our former colonies are still mostly poor.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by cc bcc
I think we, and many other western countries, still have a large dept to pay. Even when I didn't have anything to do with it personally, I still live in a rich country because of that, and our former colonies are still mostly poor.

i was recently in arizona, and went through the massive navajo reservation, and got a small glimpse of just how desolate that land is, and how poor the people are in general. i also saw a discovery channel special about the history of the navajo people... of course i knew the basics (european white men came with disease and guns and raped, robbed, killed, and drove them from their land), but seeing the specifics (the long walk) made it all the more real, of course along with seeing the ancestors' conditions as a result of this today. my brother and i joked that each of us (white americans) owe x amount of money to the native americans... i say joked because obviously 1. no amount of money would make up for the past atrocities, 2. it'd be impossible to calculate said money, 3. money alone won't solve the issues..

anyways, just thought it was interesting to see that america's not alone in treating people like poo (i realize of course that the americans that did this were generally of european decent, so our countries' histories share some details in that sense...)

[rainman::|:|]

this is kind of a funny question... Des Moines, IA doesn't have much of a ghetto, but just two days ago, i moved from the most ghetto-ass place in the city... not burnt out cars or anything (tho there was someone breaking into cars and lighting them on fire a while back) but drug dealers wandering around (none would sell to a white guy :rolleyes:;)), high crime rate, general feeling of living in a joyless existance full of human suffering...

now i live in the white-collar, preppy West Des Moines, which i find much better ;)

pnw

[macktheknife]

I grew up in Long Beach, CA: home to some of the most notorious gangsta' rappers like Dr. Dre, Snoop Dog, Warren-G, etc. In many of their songs, they have references to specific streets or geographic landmarks--places that I've actually passed by on a number of occassions (like 21st and Lewis and the West Side in "Regulator"). Also, many of their music videos were filmed in Long Beach, and one of those videos ("Let Me Ride") was filmed directly across from my high school!

Was ghetto life in Long Beach all that bad? Well, yes and no. If you just try to mind your own business and use some common sense, you should be alright. Nonetheless, I myself was a victim to a robbery when I was coming home from school when I just happened to bump into the wrong crowd. Let me just say that I will never be confused for a gangbanger, so it wasn't like I actually invited the violence.

I was, however, informed by someone that West Coast ghettos are not nearly as bad as some housing projects in Chicago, the Deep South, and the East Coast. After studying abroad in China for a year, I've also come to the realization that, relatively speaking, life in the ghettos is hardly all that bad.

[tpjunkie]

I was, however, informed by someone that West Coast ghettos are not nearly as bad as some housing projects in Chicago, the Deep South, and the East Coast.

I grew up in essex county, new jersey. Although my town was by no stretch of the imagination "ghetto' (read: 2nd highest municipal property taxes in the state), we border one of the more dangerous places in the state, East Orange. In E.O. (to refer to it ghetto style), many of the cops are corrupt, the fire fighters do coke, and its not a place I like to go for any reason (excepting those scary white late night white castle runs...its the only white castle around). On the other side of East Orange is a more well known ghetto, Newark NJ. Newark is beginning a small renewal, there are places that are quite nice, and a couple of the schools are even pretty decent. But there are again parts of newark that i would not consider driving around in. A little farther away is Jersey City.

I don't f**k with Jersey City.

[howard]

"ghettos are the same all over the world, they stink."

-quote from one of the guys in Enter the Dragon, Bruce Lee...sorry forgot his name.