Apple TV HD quality??

[Learjet035]

Forgive me, I haven't read too much about ATV but was curious.
It seems that ATV is all about HD viewing (HD menu, HDMI, etc) but then the quality of the movies or shows available are no where near HD.
Am I wrong? If so, how long does it take to DL a HD movie?

[Forced Perfect]

Forgive me, I haven't read too much about ATV but was curious.
It seems that ATV is all about HD viewing (HD menu, HDMI, etc) but then the quality of the movies or shows available are no where near HD.
Am I wrong? If so, how long does it take to DL a HD movie?

That depends on a lot of factors such as who you're downloading it from (Apple has a very fast connection), what quality the movie is and other factors.

It's probably at least 4 times the size of the current movies on the iTMS (although I can't be sure as they don't offer any in Canada yet!).

You can always encode your own.

[dan-o-mac]

I'm not sure how long it would take, but the file sizes should be around 4-6GB per compressed HD movie.

Forced Perfect. Without a HD-DVD or Blu-ray drive how does one plan on doing that? :p

[Forced Perfect]

I'm not sure how long it would take, but the file sizes should be around 4-6GB per compressed HD movie.

Forced Perfect. Without a HD-DVD or Blu-ray drive how does one plan on doing that? :p

You don't. Legally. haha

Although you could get one of the newer camcorders that shoots 720p. hehe

[jane doe]

An HD movie (720p) is about 4 to 6GB on Xbox live. I had a 5 megabit connection and it took about 2 to 3 hours to get 70% of the movie, at that point I could start playing it.

I have since moved and had to bump down to a 1.3 megabit connection and haven't downloaded an HD movie but have downloaded several HD TV shows at 1.9 to 2.5GB in size. Those take about the same amount of time as 70% did on my faster connection.

So take the above for what its worth but I think that before HD content over the internet can become common place faster internet connections will either have to be the norm or people will have to get used to starting the download before going to bed or work to watch later.

[clevin]

Forgive me, I haven't read too much about ATV but was curious.
It seems that ATV is all about HD viewing (HD menu, HDMI, etc) but then the quality of the movies or shows available are no where near HD.
Am I wrong? If so, how long does it take to DL a HD movie?

you are right.

and ATV is nothing about HD, at least for now, (Im not sure if current ATV is hardware-ly ready, anybody tried HD-DVD in any unofficial way to test it?)

[macphin]

But, you could find alot of HD movies illegaly, which play fine on apple tv. you'll have to convert them to mp4. It's a way to watch HD movies before they appear in iTunes Store.

[Erendiox]

But, you could find alot of HD movies illegaly, which play fine on apple tv. you'll have to convert them to mp4. It's a way to watch HD movies before they appear in iTunes Store.

Careful buddy. Talking about stuff like that can get you banned on this forum. It's explicit in the rules that pirating is not to be discussed.

Cheers :)

[clevin]

Careful buddy. Talking about stuff like that can get you banned on this forum. It's explicit in the rules that pirating is not to be discussed.

Cheers :)

oh yes, plus, u can't expect compressed video to have same quality as HD-DVD.

[macphin]

oh yes, plus, u can't expect compressed video to have same quality as HD-DVD.

c'mon, everybody knows that it is possible to find any info online, legally or illegaly, and I didn't mention any links.

Clevin, sure, compressed video won't have same quality, but resolution still remains the same, which is still way better than DVD... when you compress, you cut only (in most cases) bit rate.

[Forced Perfect]

oh yes, plus, u can't expect compressed video to have same quality as HD-DVD.

HD-DVD/Blu-ray both are compressed video (although I think technically they do support uncompressed, raw HD video). What we're really talking about here is transcoding a video into a new format. Meaning compressed -> compressed in a different format. Which does result in a loss of quality.

[Learjet035]

Ok, so what is availible right now with ATV? HD movies? Or that video iPod resolution stuff?

[JonHimself]

Ok, so what is availible right now with ATV? HD movies? Or that video iPod resolution stuff?

From iTunes there is just the iPod resolution stuff. Being in Canada I've never actually watched an iTMS TV episode but have heard that they're alright - though not even close to HD. My opinion (as is the same with many others) is that because there is no HD or 5.1 or anything offered from iTunes, Apple does not have to really support it in AppleTV. I hope/assume that as 5.1 becomes available through iTunes or as HD becomes available through iTunes the "official" specs get updated. Of course, using stuff like Handbrake you'll hopefully be able to get DPL II really soon from your own DVDs.

[Learjet035]

So if you buy an ATV, where are you getting the content from? If you aren't so savvy as to get it else where.

[JonHimself]

So if you buy an ATV, where are you getting the content from? If you aren't so savvy as to get it else where.

For me, well to start, I don't yet have one but will be purchasing one within the next 6 months (hopefully sooner). Again, being in Canada I don't (yet) have access to any of the video media on iTMS (except music vids and some animation shorts... well and video podcasts). My content is coming from DVDs that I own.. mostly TV DVDs. I am ripping them with MacTheRipper to my external drive for now. When the next release of Handbrake/Mediafork is put out if (hopefully) will have solid support for bookmarks and at least DPL II sound track (so I can get simulated surround sound). At that point I'll just start ripping my movies and TV episodes with a standard setting and that will be my source of content. I guess I'll see where the hacks are with AppleTV at that point to decide what to do with any unsupported content I have (unsupported formats I mean).

[djsound]

why go through all the hassle of ripping a dvd to your computer then playing through this ATV?? why not just watch the dvd on your dvd player? am i missing something?? i dont have time to do all that..

[lostless]

When the next release of Handbrake/Mediafork is put out if (hopefully) will have solid support for bookmarks and at least DPL II sound track (so I can get simulated surround sound).

Handbrake allready rips with DLP II. DLP II is encoded into a stereo track. Handbrake does exactly what a DVD player does and mixes down the 5.1 down to a stereo track with the simulated surround.

[iJon]

But, you could find alot of HD movies illegaly, which play fine on apple tv. you'll have to convert them to mp4. It's a way to watch HD movies before they appear in iTunes Store.

Then it isn't HD and that's the whole point. The AppleTV will not play files bigger than 4GB, which rules out almost any 720p file.

The best way to watch HD movies with a Mac interface is just spend the extra $300 and set up a Mac Mini.

jon

[djsound]

I'm interested in buying one but the more I read about it the more I am confused...

[JonHimself]

why go through all the hassle of ripping a dvd to your computer then playing through this ATV?? why not just watch the dvd on your dvd player? am i missing something?? i dont have time to do all that..

Easier to have all of movies stored in one location without having the need to have DVDs around. It may sound crazy, but millions of people already do the same with their music. I haven't touched CDs in a very long time (aside from when I purcahse them and rip them to my computer). They then get put on shelves. All of my music is available on my computer and my iPod which can be hooked up to any stereo system.
I see AppleTV as just that for my video. Only difference being that it is harder to get my video into a format that can be used like that. Also, I'm not just ripping to be viewed on an AppleTV. They can also be viewed on my computer (or any computer on my network), or on my iPod, or streamed through XBMC in a different room. Having my movies and TV episodes in a digital format just makes them easier to access without any hassles of having to shuffle discs around.

[macphin]

Then it isn't HD and that's the whole point. The AppleTV will not play files bigger than 4GB, which rules out almost any 720p file.

The best way to watch HD movies with a Mac interface is just spend the extra $300 and set up a Mac Mini.

jon


Apple TV plays files bigger than 4gb. I've played 7gb on it... But, I can't stream it, only sync.

[iJon]

Apple TV plays files bigger than 4gb. I've played 7gb on it... But, I can't stream it, only sync.

That's good to know. I wonder how it fairs with an 8GB 720p x264 file. I am going to predict not to well.

jon

[ftaok]

That's good to know. I wonder how it fairs with an 8GB 720p x264 file. I am going to predict not to well.

jon
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the file size has nothing to do with playback performance. It's all dependent on the bit rate. The higher the bit rate, the more processor power you need to playback smoothly.

So you could have a low bitrate video that has a super long duration and it'll play fine. Or you could have a high bitrate video that is very short and it'll be choppy.

ft

[Forced Perfect]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the file size has nothing to do with playback performance. It's all dependent on the bit rate. The higher the bit rate, the more processor power you need to playback smoothly.

So you could have a low bitrate video that has a super long duration and it'll play fine. Or you could have a high bitrate video that is very short and it'll be choppy.

ft

Correct. The file size only shows how much total information is in the video, not how much the computer needs to process. If you had an 8 GB file that was encoded at 128 Kbit/sec you'd get days (probably) of video. But if you encoded it at like... 1024 MB/sec you'd only get 8 seconds and the computer could never get a gig a second read, decoded and displayed. So the higher the rate, the more the computer has to do per second which pushes the computer and the drive in keeping up. Also too high would prevent you from reliably streaming it over wireless, etc.

[macphin]

ftaok was right, but, I was talking about HD movie wich is about 7000 kb/s, 720p, which played smoothly, even though, it says in specification that :apple:tv can't support more than 5 mb/s. I think that it will play more than 7000 kb/s. Although it's pretty fine for 1ghz and 256mb.

[GregA]

I think that before HD content over the internet can become common place faster internet connections will either have to be the norm or people will have to get used to starting the download before going to bed or work to watch later.
Agreed. The net isn't up to it yet.

I hope that Apple, when it starts working with HD, helps local ISPs cache information to minimise strain on the internet in general, as well as lowering cost for the ISP and for Apple. And if Apple uses peer-to-peer to aid the speed, hopefully they'll encourage local peering groups rather than peer to anywhere on the net.

edit:
The wait time for downloads is why I'd hoped AppleTV would work as a DVR.
Using a DVR forms new habits - you look ahead a couple of days and select what you want recorded when it airs (to watch later). This habit dovetails nicely with selecting movies you'd like to download (to watch later).

[Alphy]

Great thread, thumbs up.

I'm currently converting episodes of The Office which I capped @ 720p and now am running them through Videoara's Apple TV converter. I have bit rate set at 8192, which is a bit high. Not sure if she'll play it back. May try another encode @ 5120 and see how that looks.

Uhm, also; what do I do to get files that are bigger than 4GB to play back on ATV? I've read that it's possible to watch files that are bigger than 4GB, and I've also read that there is some sort of limitation. What's the deal w/that?

[GregA]

what do I do to get files that are bigger than 4GB to play back on ATV? I've read that it's possible to watch files that are bigger than 4GB, and I've also read that there is some sort of limitation. What's the deal w/that?
I read somewhere that they won't stream. They will sync.

Hope it helps.

[droz]

I believe the comments about ATV not supporting bitrates greater than 5Mbps are correct. Elgato has a comment on their website regarding the latest software update in support of ATV that indicates they had to pull back on full HD encoding (1280x720 @60fps) because the bitrates were too high. The max possible in their estimation is 960x540 @30fps and 5Mbps. This is very disappointing and is exactly why i'm looking to get a mac mini instead. This version of ATV just isn't cutting it. I expect we'll see indications of that in next week's earnings announcement. Maybe it will get them off their arses so as to develop ATV 2.0. I'm a huge fan of the concept and it has great potential, but mac mini is still kicking it's butt at this point. I expect Apple knows this, thus explaining the lack of updates to the macmini (still not running a core 2 duo? come on!)

[JAT]

HD-DVD/Blu-ray both are compressed video (although I think technically they do support uncompressed, raw HD video). What we're really talking about here is transcoding a video into a new format. Meaning compressed -> compressed in a different format. Which does result in a loss of quality.

No, neither of them support uncompressed raw HD video. HD video as used on HDDVD, BD, and your local TV network is compressed. To the tune of 52x compression.

[GregA]

HD video as used on HDDVD, BD, and your local TV network is compressed. To the tune of 52x compression.

Yes they're all compressed, but to different degrees. Higher bitrate will be higher quality - though at some point extra bits are irrelevant (slow scenes work perfectly at slower bitrates)

-BluRay compresses at up to 40Mbit/sec
-HD compresses at up to 30Mbit/sec
-AppleTV compresses at up to 5Mbit/sec
-HDTV ... usually uses MPEG2 at about 13Mbit/sec, h264 would be 5 or 6Mbit/sec.
-x264 downloads on the net look to be about 3.5Mbps - I haven't got any experience with them (seriously!).

Apple's HD samples look good, probably related to be 720p24 (gets some colour stepping with some fast moving scenes I've watched). If they wanted to show 1080i60 they'd need higher bandwidth.

[pilotError]

I hope that Apple, when it starts working with HD, helps local ISPs cache information to minimise strain on the internet in general, as well as lowering cost for the ISP and for Apple. And if Apple uses peer-to-peer to aid the speed, hopefully they'll encourage local peering groups rather than peer to anywhere on the net.

I was thinking that they would partner with Google on some of this. Google certainly has the data centers / bandwidth to deal with it, but I suspect that its just the content providers clinging to their DVD's.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to throw a Gigabit Switch in Airport Extreme and a Gigabit port on the back of an Apple TV to support full High Def. It may require the unit to have more memory and a larger disk cache though.

Not really reasonable for the Mass market just yet. I still think they are in learning mode with the early adopters.

[GregA]

I was thinking that they would partner with Google on some of this. Google certainly has the data centers / bandwidth to deal with it, but I suspect that its just the content providers clinging to their DVD's. That doesn't solve the problem of local caching and local peering - it doesn't take the pressure off the Internet backbone itself.

Still, maybe Google has similar goals, especially for youtube.

I still think they are in learning mode with the early adopters.Very true. The current AppleTV is a good start, still much to learn.

[zeroaxs]

Yes they're all compressed, but to different degrees. Higher bitrate will be higher quality - though at some point extra bits are irrelevant (slow scenes work perfectly at slower bitrates)

.....

Apple's HD samples look good, probably related to be 720p24 (gets some colour stepping with some fast moving scenes I've watched). If they wanted to show 1080i60 they'd need higher bandwidth.

Sounds like some of you need to go watch the latest Technology Evangelist podcast from iTunes that has information about the differences between the different HD video types. 1080i isn't somehow "better" than 720p. Why would they want to show 1080i? You're effectively only getting a 540p signal with enhanced horizontal definition that ALSO gives you smearing effects...

I don't understand the big deal with 1080i. Now p... that's a different story.

[Scarpad]

Apple TV plays files bigger than 4gb. I've played 7gb on it... But, I can't stream it, only sync.

Well that makes sense, if Itunes does go for a rental model for HD material then most likely you'll have to Sync the movie to the internal HD for playing, which means 3 to 4 movies at most. I have'nt synced anything yet not even photos,

[GregA]

Sounds like some of you need to go watch the latest Technology Evangelist podcast from iTunes that has information about the differences between the different HD video types. 1080i isn't somehow "better" than 720p. Why would they want to show 1080i? You're effectively only getting a 540p signal with enhanced horizontal definition that ALSO gives you smearing effects...

I don't understand the big deal with 1080i. Now p... that's a different story.
If film is converted to 1080i60, is can be de-interlaced with no loss of quality. It becomes 1080p24. That is only possible if it's filmed as 24 frames (which is current practice), as it can then merge the odd and even lines from the same original frame.

For video 1080i recordings you are absolutely correct. I'd rather have 720p.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p#Availability

Note: I have no idea if 1080i50 (pal) can be de-interlaced the same way... just can't find anything on it.

[ftaok]

Note: I have no idea if 1080i50 (pal) can be de-interlaced the same way... just can't find anything on it.

I read somewhere that interlaced PAL can be deinterlaced to 25p. When watching material originally filmed in 24p, 25p runs slightly faster, around 4%.

I don't know if it's true, as it seems awfully strange. If they did that in the USA, someone would want to sue for damages.

ft

[GregA]

I read somewhere that interlaced PAL can be deinterlaced to 25p. When watching material originally filmed in 24p, 25p runs slightly faster, around 4%.I've read the same. In fact for one show I noticed a change in pitch of the actors voices, though that is normally corrected for.

I'm guessing that TVs which reconstruct 24p from PAL can't undo the 'sped up' method, since they can't change the speed of the signal they're receiving. The German Pioneer website implies they can reconstruct 24p though...

The other method of converting to PAL is to copy every 24th frame. A reconstruction would de-interlace the frames, then look for the one which is doubled (or half de-interlace, look for the field which is doubled and remove that, then continue de-interlace)

Anyway, for now that's why our AppleTV is set to 720p60. The TV reconstructs 24p and switches to 72Hz and refreshes each frame 3 times. Unfortunately the TV isn't smart enough to automatically detect 50/60Hz and use different methods, "purecinema" handles one or the other only. So DVDs may suffer.