Am I really Anti-American?

[halfprep455]

As some of you can tell by my posts, I am a pretty liberal guy. I just happen to live in a very conservitive household and come from a conservitive family. Everytime I get into debates with anyone in my house or I question the war or the president I basically automatically get called "anti-American." Do any of you out there think its anti-American to quesion the war or the President? How is it anti-American to say that you support people like Obama or Kusinich for president? Im just sick and tired of being called anti-American and that I "help the terrorists" by people in my family and in my neighborhood.

[katie ta achoo]

This idea was brought up in my lecture today. We're reading and discussing "The Dead" by James Joyce and the professor brought this up today.
Ms.. ivors wants a nationalist. Her cause (partly-ish) is gabriel’s cause because he’s irish. How can you have a grudge against another Irishman?

This takes place in the 2 years before the first major push for Irish independence (1912).
The protagonist doesn't connect with any of the other characters, much like something you're experiencing a little with the questioning of the current administration.

IMO, if anything, you're more of an "American" because you question the ideas set before you. Instead of blindly accepting things at face value, the question of "why" is brought up.
Exploring topics and making an educated decision is smart and not anti-anything, until you decide you want to be against it.

[juanster]

As some of you can tell by my posts, I am a pretty liberal guy. I just happen to live in a very conservitive household and come from a conservitive family. Everytime I get into debates with anyone in my house or I question the war or the president I basically automatically get called "anti-American." Do any of you out there think its anti-American to quesion the war or the President? How is it anti-American to say that you support people like Obama or Kusinich for president? Im just sick and tired of being called anti-American and that I "help the terrorists" by people in my family and in my neighborhood.


no way man, i know it's ur family and all, but u can just tell them to f'off... just because you don't feel teh same way as the leader of your country does not mean you are against your country. IMO i think that war is useless and all is doing is making meeeeeee pay more for gas prices and taxes for soldiers to go overseas, and it's not even our war, what are canadian soldiers doing overseas? (i actually know what they are doing, i have alot of friends in teh army and they have explained everything to me but it is still useless... call me selfish or whatever you want but i don t think i should be paying to support something i don t agree on.... in conclusion,,, just because you don t feel teh same way as others do, it does not mean you are against them

[devilot]

Do any of you out there think its anti-American to quesion the war or the President?No. Questioning, thinking, debating, disagreeing with the government isn't anti-American. I feel like being disrespectful might be anti-American though. You (meaning people in general) can certainly make your points without resorting to name-calling and such.

[yg17]

The people who idly stand by and do nothing except blindly support their country and its leaders as it spirals down into a ****hole, taking the rest of the world with it and not doing a damn thing to change it are the ones who are anti-American.

[zioxide]

Isn't one of the biggest things about being American is freedom to believe what you want and say what you want? Here you can criticize the government all you want and support who you want. It's one of the great things about this country.

[ebouwman]

Isn't one of the biggest things about being American is freedom to believe what you want and say what you want? Here you can criticize the government all you want and support who you want. It's one of the great things about this country.

i think that many people living in america aren't really very americain, in the sense that being americain is about having freedoms and such, while many americains squash others' rights.

What's next, are your parents going to call you a communist? or a Terrorist? sounds a lot like the witch hunts of the cold war and McCarthy's trials.

[furious]

Don't buy into the dogma. You are right to question. Asking questions is the greatest right we have. Think how little we would no if know one asked questions. ;) Asking questions is a sign of ones intelligence. The more questions you ask the smarter you will become. never stop asking questions because some imbecile tells you are being anti something.

[eji]

A healthy democracy relies on active criticism and informed debate. Blind, unquestioning support for the government and all its policies is the stuff of totalitarian regimes. The next time your parents complain about the Bush administration's immigration policies or tax laws, meet their gripes with a cold, angry glance, and ask, "Are you questioning MY government? USA: Love it or leave it!"

As a liberal (which isn't a four letter word), it's important when you're in the overwhelming company of conservatives to distance yourself from the "Hollywood liberal" stereotypes and explain that you're not chanting for the heads of the US soldiers when, for example, you argue that the invasion of Iraq was a violation of international law predicated on lies from the get-go. Acknowledge their sacred points like troops, democracy, patriotism, and show that they matter to you, too, you goddamn heathen traitor commie. But then again, there are still many people who will retreat into an ideology and refuse any facts that run contrary to it, however logical and sound, the more that ideology becomes threatened.

I once read that conservatives tend to think in direct cause/effect terms, and liberals tend to see the world as more nuanced, with a network of different forces affecting outcomes. So to a conservative, the threatening gaggle of Spanish-speaking kids hanging out on the street are lazy, uncouth immigrants. They should be sent back to their own country and prevented from returning. Problem; problem solved. To a liberal, they may be third-generation citizens who are simply poor and lack the resources of their middle-class peers, which can be provided by enacting laws that don't always benefit the elite. Or they may very well be immigrants who have tried to escape the poverty of their native country, poverty that stems from local corruption and instability as well as industrial laws running in the US' favor. And so on, and so on. Therefore there isn't one single cause or explanation. Problems are systemic and should be analyzed as such.

When I talk to the conservatives in my family and elsewhere, I try to keep these things in mind. It doesn't spare me from aggravation, but it does help me argue my position just a little better. Lately I've found my own mother agreeing with me, though that might be tied to a general shift in public opinion than my skilled rhetoric.

And no, you're not anti-American, but I don't think George Carlin for president would represent a significant advancement in the American political situation.

[solvs]

Ask them how they feel about Clinton. ;)

Someone once said that conservatives treat their government like a parent or spouse, while liberals tend to treat the gov like a sibling or coworker. If a fellow conservative is in power, attacking them is like attacking the country itself. Some people recognize that we should have the right to criticize our leaders. That's part of what makes our country great (or is supposed to). It's built right into our system. But people are afraid, and look to GW and the neocons to protect us. Attacking them somehow means siding with the terrorists, even if the reason most of us are so upset is because of the failed handling of the WOT. And really, what have they done right? Really. I ask that question over and over, and get nothing. It's one thing to defend your guy. It's another to defend someone no matter what, attacking even those with viable concerns, especially when that person or group you defend has done so many things wrong, and yet you still defend them.

Stand by your country at all times. Stand by your gov when they deserve it. Criticize them when they don't BECAUSE you love your country, and want to make it better. Even if just to defend the right to criticize itself.

That being said, despite having facts and a majority of the country on your side, you probably shouldn't bother arguing with your family about it. It's only going to piss everybody off. If they don't want to follow that same rule and want to get into an argument, be as informed as you possibly can to argue with them. You may not be able to change their minds, but if you have unbiased facts on your side, you can shut them up when they try to spout talking points.

[dornoforpyros]

Yes, a patriot doesn't ask questions.

Look at this way, if a true american is just suppose to keep their mouth shut and follow their leaders with blind faith, then do you really want to be true american?

[dylan]

You are much more American than they are. Bush is very anti-American his administration is effectively pissing on the Bill of Rights and working to destroy everything America stood for. He has on numerous accounts declared himself "above the law", sounds more like a dictator than the president of a constitutional republic to me.

Have your family members read the Constitution.

[princealfie]

You're considered anti-American if you are

1) brutally honest
2) understand the Constitution
3) willing to question
4) read leftover Tom Paine pamphlets
5) don't worship Paris Hilton
6) able to identify Paris, TX on a map
7) a Bible banger without having actually read the Bible.

I love being confrontational in fact. I don't care if I make people mad at me. I'm from New York so really there's no way around us.

[princealfie]

No. Questioning, thinking, debating, disagreeing with the government isn't anti-American. I feel like being disrespectful might be anti-American though. You (meaning people in general) can certainly make your points without resorting to name-calling and such.

But isn't there a right to diss too? I think that the freedom to pretty much do anything is cool w/ me.

[Swarmlord]

You're considered anti-American if you are

1) brutally honest
2) understand the Constitution
3) willing to question
4) read leftover Tom Paine pamphlets
5) don't worship Paris Hilton
6) able to identify Paris, TX on a map
7) a Bible banger without having actually read the Bible.

I love being confrontational in fact. I don't care if I make people mad at me. I'm from New York so really there's no way around us.

But you're considered a good American if you

1) think that debate involves holding signs and shouting down the other side
2) read things into the Constitution that aren't written there
3) question everything, but love every conspiracy theory
4) read Mother Jones cover to cover
5) think John Stewart is a news anchor
6) know where every beach is located in California and Florida
7) think the Bible is an archaic tome that should be relegated to the dustbin of history.

[skinnylegs]

How is it anti-American to say that you support people like Obama..........'cause his name sounds too close to Osama. ;)

[Thomas Veil]

Am I really Anti-American?Hmm.

Which side of your family supports upholding the Constitution? Obeying international law? Helping our military, instead of weakening it? Respecting the will of the people? Telling the truth?

If they're not in favor of those things, you're not the anti-American in the household.

[ebouwman]

7) think the Bible is an archaic tome that should be relegated to the dustbin of history.

it seems that many americains don't see it this way, and in fact force it's teachings on us and call themselves true americains!

[mrkramer]

it seems that many americains don't see it this way, and in fact force it's teachings on us and call themselves true americains!

Those ones would be these.


7) a Bible banger without having actually read the Bible.

[princealfie]

Yeah, of course I try my hardest to be well-read you know. Seriously, I like reading the Bible, Book of Mormon, Koran, B-Gita, Kumasutra, the catacheism, etc. etc.

It's strange that many who are religious hardly pick up a book in their lives. Sad.

[brad.c]

How an you possibly be against every American? There's over 925 million of them. Are you Anti-North American? That's 500+ million people. Anti-United States of Americans? That's 300 million people, not even half of which voted for Bush in 2000. And if only 30% of the people support him now, that's 90 million people. Are they all insufferable? Likely not. I haven't met an citizen of the United States that I didn't like. Heck, I'd probably have a blast getting drunk with Dick Cheney. Of course I'd never go hunting with him.

Remember: Hugo Chávez is an American.

[leekohler]

But you're considered a good American if you

1) think that debate involves holding signs and shouting down the other side No- that's called protest. Sometimes it's necessary- unless you're talking about Westboro Baptist Church.
2) read things into the Constitution that aren't written there Hmmm...who does that sound like? GWB anybody? Don't get me started.
3) question everything, but love every conspiracy theory I question everything, but conspiracy theories are BS.
4) read Mother Jones cover to cover I have no subscriptions.
5) think John Stewart is a news anchor He's a comedian like Rush Limbaugh. :)
6) know where every beach is located in California and Florida I hate the beach, not to mention warm weather.
7) think the Bible is an archaic tome that should be relegated to the dustbin of history. As far as our laws are concerned, it is and should be. But people can believe what they want.

So which one am I? Pro or Anti?

[princealfie]

No- that's called protest. Sometimes it's necessary- unless you're talking about Westboro Baptist Church.
Hmmm...who does that sound like? GWB anybody? Don't get me started.
I question everything, but conspiracy theories are BS.
I have no subscriptions.
He's a comedian like Rush Limbaugh. :)
I hate the beach, not to mention warm weather.
As far as our laws are concerned, it is and should be. But people can believe what they want.

So which one am I? Pro or Anti?

I dunno but I think that you just incurred the wrath of Swarmlord coming to swarm over you now. :eek:

[Agathon]

As some of you can tell by my posts, I am a pretty liberal guy. I just happen to live in a very conservitive household and come from a conservitive family. Everytime I get into debates with anyone in my house or I question the war or the president I basically automatically get called "anti-American." Do any of you out there think its anti-American to quesion the war or the President? How is it anti-American to say that you support people like Obama or Kusinich for president? Im just sick and tired of being called anti-American and that I "help the terrorists" by people in my family and in my neighborhood.

Believe me, you are not anti-American.

Leave the US. You will see what real anti-Americanism is like. I don't mean go to Syria or Iran. I mean go somewhere closer, like Canada.

[princealfie]

Believe me, you are not anti-American.

Leave the US. You will see what real anti-Americanism is like. I don't mean go to Syria or Iran. I mean go somewhere closer, like Canada.

Yes, Canadians tend to find us rather distasteful which why they beat us in hockey most of the time. :)

[solvs]

But you're considered a good American if you

1) think that debate involves holding signs and shouting down the other side
Don't both sides protest? Get into shouting matches? I prefer a tamer response than actually gets something done myself, but it's your right to protest, just like it's the right of some blow hard on the TV or radio to tell you he doesn't like it, just like the viewer or listener can tell you what they think.

2) read things into the Constitution that aren't written there
Again, both sides do that.

3) question everything, but love every conspiracy theory
Conspiracy theories are just that. A good American investigates and keeps their mind open. Those who fall for that stuff are just as bad as those who swallow talking points without researching or fact checking.

4) read Mother Jones cover to cover
I don't know who that is.

5) think John Stewart is a news anchor
No, he's a political satirist who's audience is more informed than your average FOX News viewer.

6) know where every beach is located in California and Florida
You don't like the beach?

7) think the Bible is an archaic tome that should be relegated to the dustbin of history.
A real American can believe whatever they want, but they have to let other people believe what they want too. I would no sooner infringe on your beliefs as I would have you infringe on mine. But that's the problem. Some of us just want to be left alone, to worship privately. The problem comes when those who take the Bible as gospel want to shove it down our throats and make us believe what they do. Making us adhere to their rules. And even they can't agree on the details.

I have my beliefs, thank you very much, just as you are welcome to yours, and if every American felt that way we'd have fewer of the problems we do.

[Swarmlord]

<snip>
So which one am I? Pro or Anti?

I don't really know. I'll be keeping my eye on you though.:cool:

[halfprep455]

I hate it when the ultra relgious folks try to shove religion down my throat. I consider myself a Christian but I never shove my beliefs down someones throat. I respesct peoples beliefs as long as they respect my beliefs. I think there should be an 11th commandment. Thou shalt keep thy religion to thy self!

[solvs]

Thou shalt keep thy religion to thy self!

Unfortunately, that would be against some of the other stuff in there.

[brad.c]

Yes, Canadians tend to find us rather distasteful which why they beat us in hockey most of the time. :)

As a Canadian, I hope that those to our south don't view us as smug, conceited prats wth an inflated superiority complex. Our cultures are so interconnected that the only true distinguishing feature is our poltical independance. We aren't responsible for the choice of your leader, and our leaders are so limited in their influence that our choices have little impact on the rest of the world.

BTW: Forget the Mexican threat: we are invading you via hockey players and comedians.

[princealfie]

As a Canadian, I hope that those to our south don't view us as smug, conceited prats wth an inflated superiority complex. Our cultures are so interconnected that the only true distinguishing feature is our poltical independance. We aren't responsible for the choice of your leader, and our leaders are so limited in their influence that our choices have little impact on the rest of the world.

BTW: Forget the Mexican threat: we are invading you via hockey players and comedians.

Interconnected cultures? Let's hope not! :eek:

Canada has a rich culture which is separate from the snug Amerikanitz culture we proclaim through our golden arches of corruption and Exxon signs.

[brad.c]

Golden arches of corruption? Funny, now I'm hungry.

[princealfie]

Golden arches of corruption? Funny, now I'm hungry.

:eek:

[halfprep455]

As you can see from my other post about moving to Canada, even though Im not American, Im not the most pro-American guy out there. Ive been to Canada many times before and I by no means would mind living there. British Columbia had to been one of the most beautiful and friendly places I have ever been to in my life. I respect Canadian culture and way of life. However, no one can deny that modern American culture has had a huge impact not only on Canada but Europe, Australlia, Asia, and most places around the world. American TV shows, music, movies, products, and fast food is enjoyed around the world. America is undoubitly the most influencial Culture in this century. With that being said, I can't say Im too happy that the rest of the world is turning into "Mini Americas". I liked seeing the individuality in Canada and Europe. Im tired of people in the country I live in going to other countries and acting superior. I just got back from Dubai, and I saw a group of Americans on my first day there acting loud and obnactious! Then I see other Americans boasting about how much better America is then everyone else and how we are "the superpower of the world!" I get so embarassed when I see other Americans doing this BS. I begin to realize why so many people hate us.

[fblack]

BTW: Forget the Mexican threat: we are invading you via hockey players and comedians.

Dont forget the musicians.:)

As you can see from my other post about moving to Canada, even though Im not American, Im not the most pro-American guy out there. Ive been to Canada many times before and I by no means would mind living there. British Columbia had to been one of the most beautiful and friendly places I have ever been to in my life. I respect Canadian culture and way of life. However, no one can deny that modern American culture has had a huge impact not only on Canada but Europe, Australlia, Asia, and most places around the world. American TV shows, music, movies, products, and fast food is enjoyed around the world. America is undoubitly the most influencial Culture in this century. With that being said, I can't say Im too happy that the rest of the world is turning into "Mini Americas". I liked seeing the individuality in Canada and Europe. Im tired of people in the country I live in going to other countries and acting superior. I just got back from Dubai, and I saw a group of Americans on my first day there acting loud and obnactious! Then I see other Americans boasting about how much better America is then everyone else and how we are "the superpower of the world!" I get so embarassed when I see other Americans doing this BS. I begin to realize why so many people hate us.

Unfortunately, I've seen many fellow Americans overseas drunk or pushing their brand of christian faith. I always hope that these are the exceptions, that people from other cultures don't see us as all being this way.

Are you anti-american? No, you just need to find more people who share your values and beliefs. I have relatives who are very conservative also and it took a loong time to convince them that our experiences growing up were different and tied to geography. If you are a minority and non-evangelical it can be pretty tough growing up in some places in the south.

[princealfie]

As you can see from my other post about moving to Canada, even though Im not American, Im not the most pro-American guy out there. Ive been to Canada many times before and I by no means would mind living there. British Columbia had to been one of the most beautiful and friendly places I have ever been to in my life. I respect Canadian culture and way of life. However, no one can deny that modern American culture has had a huge impact not only on Canada but Europe, Australlia, Asia, and most places around the world. American TV shows, music, movies, products, and fast food is enjoyed around the world. America is undoubitly the most influencial Culture in this century. With that being said, I can't say Im too happy that the rest of the world is turning into "Mini Americas". I liked seeing the individuality in Canada and Europe. Im tired of people in the country I live in going to other countries and acting superior. I just got back from Dubai, and I saw a group of Americans on my first day there acting loud and obnactious! Then I see other Americans boasting about how much better America is then everyone else and how we are "the superpower of the world!" I get so embarassed when I see other Americans doing this BS. I begin to realize why so many people hate us.

Sounds more a negative influence on Canadian culture than anything else to me... Honestly, if everything looks like America, then I don't need to bother with worldwide travel.

[leekohler]

Dont forget the musicians.:)

You mean like Rush? I love Canada but Rush is simply unforgivable. :)

[fblack]

You mean like Rush? I love Canada but Rush in simply unforgivable. :)

Hey, I like Rush and Triumph and Cowboy Junkies etc...now Celine Dion that's unforgivable. We should demand reparations. :)

[leekohler]

Hey, I like Rush and Triumph and Cowboy Junkies etc...now Celine Dion that's unforgivable. We should demand reparations. :)

Celine Dion- how could I have left that out? Yeah, you guys owe us bigtime. :)

[brad.c]

Celine Dion- how could I have left that out? Yeah, you guys owe us bigtime. :)

Michael Bolton. Now we're even.

[SMM]

I believe Thomas Jefferson wrote, "The first responsibility of a patriot is to protect the Country from its' government". I subscribe to this view.

I am sometimes accused of being un-American. I have opinions which are pretty much in line with the teachings, and observations of Noam Chomsky. As such, I do not immediately start with the premise that the US is the side with the righteous cause. Quite often, it is the opposite.

Too many of my countrymen have a Pollyanna view of American policy, foreign and domestic. "God and Country" are the core foundation of their entire belief system. When challenged, they will always come to the defense of it. One family member used to simply say, "Well, I do not believe it", when confronted with irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

If you can bring yourself to watch the O'Reily Factor (Fox), you will see this a lot. Every time Bill gets trapped not knowing what he is talking about (a common occurrence), he will say, "Well, I don't accept that, but let's move on". Another variation is, "Well, you have your opinion and I have mine, but let's move on". What is so comical is he often gets the lines confused. The net result is, he suggests there are opinions about facts. But, I am moving off-subject.

Other individuals react viscerally when their beliefs are challenged. That is usually when the anger comes out and the name calling begins. Being called un-American is an often used attack against those who threaten the core beliefs.

[killr_b]

It is your duty as an American to question the President and his actions. To confront your Congress on the issues that matter to you and to stand up when you feel your liberties are infringed.

It is your duty as an American to make informed decisions and to make your government work for you. They call themselves "officials" now, but in fact they are still public "servants."

We don't have a lot of men in the services right now. And they say there is a lack of support for America, but they don't know the truth. Men are ready to defend freedom and the American Republic, but not in this "rich man's game." Trust yourself when you aren't sure. Make sure you are clear on everything, then decide what's on the level.

I currently recommend Ron Paul for President, but I'm not a republican… ;)

[princealfie]

It is your duty as an American to question the President and his actions. To confront your Congress on the issues that matter to you and to stand up when you feel your liberties are infringed.

It is your duty as an American to make informed decisions and to make your government work for you. They call themselves "officials" now, but in fact they are still public "servants."

We don't have a lot of men in the services right now. And they say there is a lack of support for America, but they don't know the truth. Men are ready to defend freedom and the American Republic, but not in this "rich man's game." Trust yourself when you aren't sure. Make sure you are clear on everything, then decide what's on the level.

I currently recommend Ron Paul for President, but I'm not a republican… ;)

Better to defend freedom than wealth :)

[Swarmlord]

You mean like Rush? I love Canada but Rush is simply unforgivable. :)

Yeah, like you haven't rocked out to Rush 2112! "We are the priests of the temple..." :cool:

[leekohler]

Yeah, like you haven't rocked out to Rush 2112! "We are the priests of the temple..." :cool:

Actually I have- and I'm so ashamed. :)

[solvs]

Im not the most pro-American guy out there.

The government does not = America. If the gov is corrupt, or even incompetent (or even just screws up) a true American will criticize. Even more, some will actively seek to change it for what they feel is the better. So, most of the time, if you are anti-government, you are pro-America.

Er, within reason of course. If you go all Tim McVeigh, you're no better than what we fight against. We'd like to think we're more civilized than that.

[Zwhaler]

It is the right, and the duty of all good Americans to speak their mind. In fact, by doing so, one is fully participating in the democracy that the people who are criticising you claim to support and love.

Think I'm kidding? Go re-read the Declaration of Independance. Thomas Jefferson, one of our great founding fathers, says it all in that precious document.

By the way, it is a classic strategy of fools to "attack the man" instead of the argument.

To the OP: Hang in there, good luck, you are not alone.

[princealfie]

The government does not = America.

Er, within reason of course. If you go all Tim McVeigh, you're no better than what we fight against. We'd like to think we're more civilized than that.

Being civilized in your definition would be like meek little sheep running around the corral awaiting slaughter.

The government does not equal America because the corporations control the government which really has no say and so corporations = America not the government. :p

[Swarmlord]

Being civilized in your definition would be like meek little sheep running around the corral awaiting slaughter.

The government does not equal America because the corporations control the government which really has no say and so corporations = America not the government. :p

Well, even if I agreed with your statement, corporations are owned by and manned by "the people" so even under your definition we have the government of "the people."

[princealfie]

Well, even if I agreed with your statement, corporations are owned by and manned by "the people" so even under your definition we have the government of "the people."

Corporations are only owned by a select few, hardly a cross-section of America.

Think WASP, and you got the Pavlov bell ringing for moolah.

[solvs]

Being civilized in your definition would be like meek little sheep running around the corral awaiting slaughter.
:confused: So there's nothing in between doing nothing and blowing people up? My version of changing things may be a little less extreme, and frustratingly slow sometimes, but at least some things get done (often with compromises, for better or worse). Didn't say it was perfect, but it's better than extremism and violence. As you can see by the follies of our gov, as well as the terrorists, that doesn't exactly get anything done other than pissing people off and making things worse for everybody.

I'm hoping you were being flippant, but if not, I get sick of being called a coward and being lumped in with do nothings who complain but don't even vote or volunteer just because I believe in thinking things through realistically first. And by choosing to follow legal and civil discourse. Again, see our mistakes in the ME, and pretty much every social program this administration has screwed up. We're not the enablers for the screw ups, though those who do nothing don't help, those who actively support such things are definitely helping to make things far worse. How is trying to change things from inside the system, and/or using grassroots efforts, worse than going all Guy Fawkes?

And for the record, I have issues with the do-almost-nothing Dems when they pansy out too, still not going to blow up any gov buildings, because how would that make me any better?

[princealfie]

:confused: So there's nothing in between doing nothing and blowing people up? My version of changing things may be a little less extreme, and frustratingly slow sometimes, but at least some things get done (often with compromises, for better or worse). Didn't say it was perfect, but it's better than extremism and violence. As you can see by the follies of our gov, as well as the terrorists, that doesn't exactly get anything done other than pissing people off and making things worse for everybody.

I'm hoping you were being flippant, but if not, I get sick of being called a coward and being lumped in with do nothings who complain but don't even vote or volunteer just because I believe in thinking things through realistically first. And by choosing to follow legal and civil discourse. Again, see our mistakes in the ME, and pretty much every social program this administration has screwed up. We're not the enablers for the screw ups, though those who do nothing don't help, those who actively support such things are definitely helping to make things far worse. How is trying to change things from inside the system, and/or using grassroots efforts, worse than going all Guy Fawkes?

And for the record, I have issues with the do-almost-nothing Dems when they pansy out too, still not going to blow up any gov buildings, because how would that make me any better?

That's why V for Vendetta is a wake up call to everyone. Totally awesome in its ability to defy the nature of political discourse.

[solvs]

That's why V for Vendetta is a wake up call to everyone. Totally awesome in its ability to defy the nature of political discourse.
That was a movie, based on a book that was full of subtext. It was figurative. Much as I would think it would be funny to blow up Congress, I don't think it would do any good in the real world. If it came to that, maybe. I know we've all thought about it, and can look at the American Revolution for inspiration, and it would be nice if the opposition was a little stronger so it wouldn't have to come to that, but I also don't think we should go guillotining anyone either any time soon, or hanging them like we did to Saddam (yet). Just think we're better than that. V is a great story, but unfortunately completely unrealistic.

Real change is a lot more boring and doesn't have any naked Natalie Portmans in it.

[princealfie]

That was a movie, based on a book that was full of subtext. It was figurative. Much as I would think it would be funny to blow up Congress, I don't think it would do any good in the real world. If it came to that, maybe. I know we've all thought about it, and can look at the American Revolution for inspiration, and it would be nice if the opposition was a little stronger so it wouldn't have to come to that, but I also don't think we should go guillotining anyone either any time soon, or hanging them like we did to Saddam (yet). Just think we're better than that. V is a great story, but unfortunately completely unrealistic.

Real change is a lot more boring and doesn't have any naked Natalie Portmans in it.

I guess that you believed that the American Revolution was illegal under the Constitution then? Hmm... okay wow, talk about contradictory history then... oops, being a deconstructionist I guess there really isn't any subcontext or coded meaning behind all of this. :p

[Swarmlord]

I guess that you believed that the American Revolution was illegal under the Constitution then? Hmm... okay wow, talk about contradictory history then... oops, being a deconstructionist I guess there really isn't any subcontext or coded meaning behind all of this. :p

The Constitution came AFTER the Revolutionary War!?

[princealfie]

The Constitution came AFTER the Revolutionary War!?

Yeah but I'm talking about evaluating the Revolutionary War based on the constitutionality of such actions. Okay................. :p

[solvs]

Yeah but I'm talking about evaluating the Revolutionary War based on the constitutionality of such actions. Okay................. :p

Actually, it probably would have been fine. The colonies were protesting taxation without representation and fighting against an oppressive King that made Bush look like FDR. If our government was doing the exact opposite of the Constitution and Bill of Rights (well, more so) and forcing that down the barrel of a gun, especially from some overseas location, and we fought back against their troops, we'd be... hm, sounds kinda like Iraq. NM.