So how's the "surge" going for you?

[toontra]

After several weeks of Bush's surge we have 30 US troops killed in 10 days and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis (the people the US say they are there to benefit) are out on the streets asking for them to go home.

So are we heading towards "mission accomplished" or Vietnam Mk 2?

[solvs]

Did anyone really think this was going to work? Seriously? Of course it wouldn't work. Everything I've read has said it isn't working, and no one is surprised.

For those who are wondering, no, I'm not happy about it. None of us are. Thats why we're so pissed off. Because we know we're losing. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't like losing. Especially with something so important. It's not a matter of giving up any more, it's a matter of admitting there is nothing we can do to with this. Nothing. Sending a lot more soldiers to their deaths doesn't seem like it's going to do it.

[dylan]

The mission is going as planned. You didn't really think they were there to liberate Iraq did you? They are building permanent bases... they're not going anywhere.

[princealfie]

I'm trying to find a good surge protector. Any good options here? :eek:

[obeygiant]

Please site your sources for this...

After several weeks of Bush's surge we have 30 US troops killed in 10 days and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis


and this..

(the people the US say they are there to benefit) are out on the streets asking for them to go home.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/images/feb06/ViewsIraq_Feb06_graph3.gif

[srobert]

Please site your sources for this...

I know about the 30 US troops but "hundreds of thousands" of Iraqis killed in ten days? Are they a country of lemmings?

I think you somehow stopped reading that sentence before the end. ;) I also went "what-da-hell!" for a second there.

About that chart, I'd be curoius to see a more up-to-date one. I'm not saying it will have changed significantly either way, just curious.

[obeygiant]

I think you somehow stopped reading that sentence before the end. ;) I also went "what-da-hell!" for a second there.


whoops my bad. :0

[.Andy]

Looks like quite the party.
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2007/04/09/world/20070409_NAJAF_SLIDESHOW_1.html

[obeygiant]

Looks like quite the party.
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2007/04/09/world/20070409_NAJAF_SLIDESHOW_1.html

I would say those pictures look great! It looks like national unity with everyone holding the Iraqi flag. What point is this slide show trying to make? That they want the US out or that there is no civil war? :)

[miloblithe]

The surge officially began February 1st, 2007. Since then, 206 US, 10 British, and one other foreign soldier have died, in 68 days.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

That's 3.19 soldiers a day, the highest rate of the war excepting the invasion.

More dramatically, this month, 45 US and 6 British soldiers have died in the first 9 days.

[j26]

point is this slide show trying to make? That they want the US out or that there is no civil war? :)

Slide 3 might be indicative.

[princealfie]

I would say those pictures look great! It looks like national unity with everyone holding the Iraqi flag. What point is this slide show trying to make? That they want the US out or that there is no civil war? :)

Hmm... perhaps they photoshopped a tintype from the Civil War :)

[IJ Reilly]

The surge officially began February 1st, 2007. Since then, 206 US, 10 British, and one other foreign soldier have died, in 68 days.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

That's 3.19 soldiers a day, the highest rate of the war excepting the invasion.

More dramatically, this month, 45 US and 6 British soldiers have died in the first 9 days.

But other than that, it's going really well, right?

[obeygiant]

But other than that, it's going really well, right?

Yeah at least you can walk around with 100 infantry and air cover.

[TheAnswer]

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/images/feb06/ViewsIraq_Feb06_graph3.gif

Anyone have a similarly worded poll that's not from December 2005? (Maybe one from this year or late last year?)

[princealfie]

Anyone have a similarly worded poll that's not from December 2005? (Maybe one from this year or late last year?)

http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/images/Miller_etal_2006_Science_Public_Acceptance_Evo.gif

This is 2006 one concerning evolution :D.

[obeygiant]

This is 2006 one concerning evolution :D.

here's a poll. From 2002.

http://www.september11news.com/February_Feb27_islam_poll_graphic.gif

link (http://www.september11news.com/2002Timeline.htm)
Im not sure how much stock I'd put into that website though. ;)

[miloblithe]

Given the typo in the poll you found, I doubt that's really Reuters/Gallop.

Of course, if you continue to provide no links... :)

[skunk]

here's a poll.For the first and last items, it ain't just the Muslims. And those figures are on the low side, I'd say. Looks like a pretty stupid poll. Where did that come from?

[OldCorpse]

Sad. Folks in the ME believe by 61% it was not Arabs who committed 9-11. That's how hatred is maintained. They believe lies about us, and we believe lies about them. Two wrongs don't make a right. Nobody wants to take responsibility for the crimes committed by their own side. Not people in the ME, and not here, in the U.S.

Whatever explanations for 9-11, there can never be justification. Wrong is wrong. Just as we were wrong to invade Iraq. No excuses are acceptable.

[obeygiant]

Looks like a pretty stupid poll. Where did that come from?

lol, I know! I did a search on Poll Graphic (http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=poll%20graphic&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) and that was something that came up.

[skunk]

This caught my eye, browsing through Reuters to see if there was any reference to that poll. Enlightening, I thought:
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSARM55127020070225
In U.S., fear and distrust of Muslims runs deep
Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:21AM EST
By Bernd Debusmann, Special Correspondent

WASHINGTON (Reuters)- When radio host Jerry Klein suggested that all Muslims in the United States should be identified with a crescent-shape tattoo or a distinctive arm band, the phone lines jammed instantly.

The first caller to the station in Washington said that Klein must be "off his rocker." The second congratulated him and added: "Not only do you tattoo them in the middle of their forehead but you ship them out of this country ... they are here to kill us."

Another said that tattoos, armbands and other identifying markers such as crescent marks on driver's licenses, passports and birth certificates did not go far enough. "What good is identifying them?" he asked. "You have to set up encampments like during World War Two with the Japanese and Germans."

At the end of the one-hour show, rich with arguments on why visual identification of "the threat in our midst" would alleviate the public's fears, Klein revealed that he had staged a hoax. It drew out reactions that are not uncommon in post-9/11 America.

"I can't believe any of you are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything I said," he told his audience on the AM station 630 WMAL (http://www.wmal.com/), which covers Washington, Northern Virginia and Maryland

"For me to suggest to tattoo marks on people's bodies, have them wear armbands, put a crescent moon on their driver's license on their passport or birth certificate is disgusting. It's beyond disgusting.

"Because basically what you just did was show me how the German people allowed what happened to the Jews to happen ... We need to separate them, we need to tattoo their arms, we need to make them wear the yellow Star of David, we need to put them in concentration camps, we basically just need to kill them all because they are dangerous."

The show aired on November 26, the Sunday after the Thanksgiving holiday, and Klein said in an interview afterwards he had been surprised by the response.

"The switchboard went from empty to totally jammed within minutes," said Klein. "There were plenty of callers angry with me, but there were plenty who agreed."

[obeygiant]

Of course, if you continue to provide no links... :)

they're not too hard to find, just drag the graphic into the url address window.

[psychofreak]

Thats why we're so pissed off. Because we know we're losing. I don't know

What would you count as winning? Peace? That was never going to happen...the Arab world is not ready for democracy...and even the west isn't doing very well with it..

[obeygiant]

This caught my eye, browsing through Reuters to see if there was any reference to that poll. Enlightening, I thought:
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSARM55127020070225

I think you should take that article with a grain of salt. Sure there are pockets of people who may think that way, but for the silent majority tatooing Muslims just wouldn't fly. I've been to England a few times and ate at few restaurants and the food sucked, but do I think England doesn't have good food? No, it probably does. (lol could be a bad example ;) )

[IJ Reilly]

Here's a poll barn.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~bikerbfk/images/free_bikes_barn.jpg

So, nice weather we're having.

[skunk]

Balmy.

72069

[solvs]

What would you count as winning? Peace? That was never going to happen...the Arab world is not ready for democracy...and even the west isn't doing very well with it..

Some are. But not like this. Like I said, I don't know. I'm pissed that we're losing, they hate us for it, we hate us for it, and thinking we shouldn't have listened to those who continually turned out to be wrong.

At this point, as I said, I don't know if there is a way to win, and can only be angry at those who put us into this situation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/08/AR2007040801058.html?hpid=topnews

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6537861.stm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070409/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_insider_s_account

[IJ Reilly]

Yet another Pole.

http://marxists.anu.edu.au/glossary/people/w/pics/walesa-lech.jpg

[obeygiant]

We forgot Poland. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_forgot_Poland) I guess. (http://www.youforgotpoland.org/mjames/yfp/)

[solvs]

We forgot Poland. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_forgot_Poland)

They're cutting and running, aren't they?

They keep promising to at least, but then keep pushing the date back. Mid-2007 now, I hear. Insert Polish joke here.

[skunk]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6543377.stmIraqis face 'immense' suffering
The International Committee of the Red Cross says the situation for ordinary Iraqis is getting steadily worse.

Four years after the US-led invasion, the ICRC says the conflict is inflicting immense suffering, and calls for greater protection of civilians.

An Iraqi woman quoted in the report said people wanted help to collect bodies lining streets every morning.

The ICRC still has a presence in Iraq despite the bombing of its Baghdad offices three and a half years ago.

In the report called Civilians Without protection - The Ever-worsening Crisis in Iraq, the Red Cross asked Iraqis what could be done to help them.

The answer was a shock, says ICRC director of operations Pierre Kraehenbuehl.

"The suffering that Iraqi men, women and children are enduring today is unbearable and unacceptable," he said.

"The ICRC calls on all those who can influence the situation on the ground to act now to ensure that the lives of ordinary people are spared and protected. This is an obligation under international humanitarian law for both states and non-state actors."

The famously neutral International Red Cross will not blame anyone in particular for what it calls the current disastrous security situation, says the BBC's Imogen Foulkes in Geneva.

The report makes it clear that nobody - including the Iraqi government and coalition forces - has done enough so far, our correspondent adds.

'Simply unbearable'

Red Cross workers asked Iraqi women about their lives.

"If there's anything that anybody could do that would really help us today would be to help us collect the bodies that line the streets in front of our homes every morning and that we find nobody dares to touch or remove after security reasons," one woman said.

Women found it "simply unbearable" to confront their children with them morning after morning as they tried to take them to school, the woman added.

The Red Cross says every aspect of life in Iraq is getting worse - a trip to the market has become a matter of life and death.


"Once I was called to an explosion site," Saad, a humanitarian worker, is quoted as saying in the report.

"There I saw a four-year-old boy sitting beside his mother's body, which had been decapitated by the explosion. He was talking to her, asking her what had happened. He had been taken out shopping by his mum."

The report also highlights the following problems:


Iraq's healthcare facilities face critical shortages of staff and supplies. Many doctors, nurses and patients no longer dare to go to hospitals and clinics because they are targeted or threatened

much of Iraq's vital water, sewage and electricity infrastructure is in a critical condition

food shortages have been reported in some areas and malnutrition is said to have increased
In a report also released on Wednesday, the charity Oxfam said the UK's ability to be a force for good in the world had been seriously damaged by the invasion of Iraq and other foreign policy decisions.

And a report by the Oxford Research Group think tank said UK and US policy towards Iraq had "spawned new terror in the region".

I saw a four-year-old boy sitting beside his mother's body, which had been decapitated by the explosion. He was talking to her, asking her what had happened
Saad
Humanitarian worker

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_04_07_iraq-report-icrc.pdf

What have we done?

[princealfie]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6543377.stm



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_04_07_iraq-report-icrc.pdf

What have we done?

That's a question I've been asking for the past... uh... 5 years?

[zimv20]

What have we done?

bought a pack of lies for political cover while the military-industrial complex rolls on. mission accomplished.

[skunk]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article2439530.eceRobert Fisk: Divide and rule - America's plan for Baghdad
Revealed: a new counter-insurgency strategy to carve up the city into sealed areas. The tactic failed in Vietnam. So what chance does it have in Iraq?

Published: 11 April 2007
Faced with an ever-more ruthless insurgency in Baghdad - despite President George Bush's "surge" in troops - US forces in the city are now planning a massive and highly controversial counter-insurgency operation that will seal off vast areas of the city, enclosing whole neighbourhoods with barricades and allowing only Iraqis with newly issued ID cards to enter.

The campaign of "gated communities" - whose genesis was in the Vietnam War - will involve up to 30 of the city's 89 official districts and will be the most ambitious counter-insurgency programme yet mounted by the US in Iraq.

The system has been used - and has spectacularly failed - in the past, and its inauguration in Iraq is as much a sign of American desperation at the country's continued descent into civil conflict as it is of US determination to "win" the war against an Iraqi insurgency that has cost the lives of more than 3,200 American troops. The system of "gating" areas under foreign occupation failed during the French war against FLN insurgents in Algeria and again during the American war in Vietnam. Israel has employed similar practices during its occupation of Palestinian territory - again, with little success.

But the campaign has far wider military ambitions than the pacification of Baghdad. It now appears that the US military intends to place as many as five mechanised brigades - comprising about 40,000 men - south and east of Baghdad, at least three of them positioned between the capital and the Iranian border. This would present Iran with a powerful - and potentially aggressive - American military force close to its border in the event of a US or Israeli military strike against its nuclear facilities later this year.

The latest "security" plan, of which The Independent has learnt the details, was concocted by General David Petraeus, the current US commander in Baghdad, during a six-month command and staff course at Fort Leavenworth in Kansas. Those attending the course - American army generals serving in Iraq and top officers from the US Marine Corps, along with, according to some reports, at least four senior Israeli officers - participated in a series of debates to determine how best to "turn round" the disastrous war in Iraq.

The initial emphasis of the new American plan will be placed on securing Baghdad market places and predominantly Shia Muslim areas. Arrests of men of military age will be substantial. The ID card project is based upon a system adopted in the city of Tal Afar by General Petraeus's men - and specifically by Colonel H R McMaster, of the 3rd Armoured Cavalry Regiment - in early 2005, when an eight-foot "berm" was built around the town to prevent the movement of gunmen and weapons. General Petraeus regarded the campaign as a success although Tal Afar, close to the Syrian border, has since fallen back into insurgent control.

So far, the Baghdad campaign has involved only the creation of a few US positions within several civilian areas of the city but the new project will involve joint American and Iraqi "support bases" in nine of the 30 districts to be "gated" off. From these bases - in fortified buildings - US-Iraqi forces will supposedly clear militias from civilian streets which will then be walled off and the occupants issued with ID cards. Only the occupants will be allowed into these "gated communities" and there will be continuous patrolling by US-Iraqi forces. There are likely to be pass systems, "visitor" registration and restrictions on movement outside the "gated communities". Civilians may find themselves inside a "controlled population" prison.

In theory, US forces can then concentrate on providing physical reconstruction in what the military like to call a "secure environment". But insurgents are not foreigners, despite the presence of al-Qa'ida in Iraq. They come from the same population centres that will be "gated" and will, if undiscovered, hold ID cards themselves; they will be "enclosed" with everyone else.

A former US officer in Vietnam who has a deep knowledge of General Petraeus's plans is sceptical of the possible results. "The first loyalty of any Sunni who is in the Iraqi army is to the insurgency," he said. "Any Shia's first loyalty is to the head of his political party and its militia. Any Kurd in the Iraqi army, his first loyalty is to either Barzani or Talabani. There is no independent Iraqi army. These people really have no choice. They are trying to save their families from starvation and reprisal. At one time they may have believed in a unified Iraq. At one time they may have been secular. But the violence and brutality that started with the American invasion has burnt those liberal ideas out of people ... Every American who is embedded in an Iraqi unit is in constant mortal danger."

The senior generals who constructed the new "security" plan for Baghdad were largely responsible for the seminal - but officially "restricted" - field manual on counter-insurgency produced by the Department of the Army in December of last year, code-numbered FM 3-24. While not specifically advocating the "gated communities" campaign, one of its principles is the unification of civilian and military activities, citing "civil operations and revolutionary development support teams" in South Vietnam, assistance to Kurdish refugees in northern Iraq in 1991 and the "provincial reconstruction teams" in Afghanistan - a project widely condemned for linking military co-operation and humanitarian aid.

FM 3-24 is harsh in its analysis of what counter-insurgency forces must do to eliminate violence in Iraq. "With good intelligence," it says, "counter-insurgents are like surgeons cutting out cancerous tissue while keeping other vital organs intact." But another former senior US officer has produced his own pessimistic conclusions about the "gated" neighbourhood project.

"Once the additional troops are in place the insurrectionists will cut the lines of communication from Kuwait to the greatest extent they are able," he told The Independent. "They will do the same inside Baghdad, forcing more use of helicopters. The helicopters will be vulnerable coming into the patrol bases, and the enemy will destroy as many as they can. The second part of their plan will be to attempt to destroy one of the patrol bases. They will begin that process by utilising their people inside the 'gated communities' to help them enter. They will choose bases where the Iraqi troops either will not fight or will actually support them.

"The American reaction will be to use massive firepower, which will destroy the neighbourhood that is being 'protected'."

The ex-officer's fears for American helicopter crews were re-emphasised yesterday when a military Apache was shot down over central Baghdad.

The American's son is an officer currently serving in Baghdad. "The only chance the American military has to withdraw with any kind of tactical authority in the future is to take substantial casualties as a token of their respect for the situation created by the invasion," he said.

"The effort to create some order out of the chaos and the willingness to take casualties to do so will leave some residual respect for the Americans as they leave."

FM 3-24: America's new masterplan for Iraq

FM 3-24 comprises 220 pages of counter-insurgency planning, combat training techniques and historical analysis. The document was drawn up by Lt-Gen David Petraeus, the US commander in Baghdad, and Lt-Gen James Amos of the US Marine Corps, and was the nucleus for the new US campaign against the Iraqi insurgency. These are some of its recommendations and conclusions:

* In the eyes of some, a government that cannot protect its people forfeits the right to rule. In [parts] of Iraq and Afghanistan... militias established themselves as extragovernmental arbiters of the populace's physical security - in some cases, after first undermining that security...

* In the al-Qa'ida narrative... Osama bin Laden depicts himself as a man purified in the mountains of Afghanistan who is inspiring followers and punishing infidels. In the collective imagination of Bin Laden and his followers, they are agents of Islamic history who will reverse the decline of the umma (Muslim community) and bring about its triumph over Western imperialism.

* As the Host Nation government increases its legitimacy, the populace begins to assist it more actively. Eventually, the people marginalise insurgents to the point that [their] claim to legitimacy is destroyed. However, victory is gained not when this is achieved, but when the victory is permanently maintained by and with the people's active support...

* Any human rights abuses committed by US forces quickly become known throughout the local populace. Illegitimate actions undermine counterinsurgency efforts... Abuse of detained persons is immoral, illegal and unprofessional.

* If military forces remain in their compounds, they lose touch with the people, appear to be running scared, and cede the initiative to the insurgents. Aggressive saturation patrolling, ambushes, and listening post operations must be conducted, risk shared with the populace and contact maintained.

* FM 3-24 quotes Lawrence of Arabia as saying: "Do not try to do too much with your own hands. Better the Arabs do it tolerably than that you do it perfectly. It is their war, and you are to help them, not to win it for them."

* FM 3-24 points to Napoleon's failure to control occupied Spain as the result of not providing a "stable environment" for the population. His struggle, the document says, lasted nearly six years and required four times the force of 80,000 Napoleon originally designated.

* Do not try to crack the hardest nut first. Do not go straight for the main insurgent stronghold. Instead, start from secure areas and work gradually outwards... Go with, not against, the grain of the local populace.

* Be cautious about allowing soldiers and marines to fraternise with local children. Homesick troops want to drop their guard with kids. But insurgents are watching. They notice any friendships between troops and children. They may either harm the children as punishment or use them as agents.Will they never learn?

[princealfie]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article2439530.eceWill they never learn?

Yep, of course not! :rolleyes:

[OldCorpse]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6543377.stm



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_04_07_iraq-report-icrc.pdf

What have we done?

When you launch an illegal war based on lies and forgery, the inevitable result is you commit war crimes. What have we done? We've committed and continue to commit war crimes every single day we stay in Iraq.

As to now trying out the same tactics that failed in Vietnam - it is obviously destined to fail just like every other tactic we've tried.

Among conservatives there's a lively debate about when the war in Iraq was lost - at which moment (of course, lol, there are still some delusional right wing nutjobs who think we're winning and will still win!). They propose different points in time: Abu Ghraib; dissolving the Iraqi army and de-Baathification; when we guarded the oil ministry instead of securing the arms depots; when we didn't stop the looting; bombing of the Samarrah Mosque.

All pretty stupid, and indicative of why they'll never get it - because they're operating based on flawed models. The truth is, we lost at the exact moment when the first illegal shot was fired in that war - the second our troops illegally crossed the first inch into Iraq. The fact that this war was illegitimate, doomed it. We lost first, in the public opinion of the entire world - right there, it was all lost. We never had any legitimacy - and this made it impossible for us to win. The resistance in Iraq was absolutely inevitable - since we invaded their country based on lies, and everyone knew it (Germans and the Japanese knew damn well they were guilty of starting the war, and it was just retribution that we went in). Since we went in with pretty much zero knowledge of the region (Bush actually until a long time after invading Iraq still didn't realize that there is such a thing as Sunnis and Shiites), we were destined to fail - just as we were destined to fail in Vietnam as we didn't understand the dynamic of what motivates our adversaries. WE LOST THE MOMENT THE FIRST ILLEGAL SHOT WAS FIRED.

[skunk]

It was really a rhetorical question or more like an exclamation of utter dismay, since I've been dead against it since well before that first shot was fired. Actually I was against the Afghan adventure, too...

[Lord Blackadder]

The problem is that insurgents hide among the population, almost guaranteeing collateral damage - any increase in force will be felt by the civilians as much as by the insurgents. We can't afford to be seen as being responsible for any more civilian deaths.

The army is increasing the length of tours of duty by three months (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6546925.stm), which is a mistake IMO. If you're that short of men, leaning harder on the soldiers you have will hurt morale and decrease their combat effectiveness.

I feel that maintaining or increasing military presence is no longer helpful - the current Iraqi government (as weak and flawed as it is) is going to have a tough time of it, possibly including civil war, but I feel that little political progress to be made before until a coalition drawdown begins taking place.

[skunk]

I feel that little political progress to be made before until a coalition drawdown begins taking place.This has very little to do with political progress, of course, and much to do with saving what little face George Bush has left. I just wish either or both he and/or Tony would just admit their appalling mistakes and resign. Not that it would help the Iraqis much, but it might just rescue that outdated concept of "honour" from the trash.

[solvs]

What have we done?
Screwed up.

Actually I was against the Afghan adventure, too...
I wasn't. I actually thought we could do some good there. Didn't realize we were even capable of screwing things up as badly as we have. Iraq was the red flag for me, as I even considered enlisting prior to us going there. Luckily, my friend in the Air Force advised against it.

All went downhill from Iraq, but it wasn't until later that most of us realized how badly Afghanistan was going too. Thirst for revenge I suppose. Meanwhile, Bin Laden is still out there and we're still stuck in wars in both. And we're losing.

I just wish either or both he and/or Tony would just admit their appalling mistakes and resign.
Would be the only thing they'd do right... so I don't see it happening.

[Swarmlord]

This has very little to do with political progress, of course, and much to do with saving what little face George Bush has left. I just wish either or both he and/or Tony would just admit their appalling mistakes and resign. Not that it would help the Iraqis much, but it might just rescue that outdated concept of "honour" from the trash.

Well, the upside to that would be that Cheney would be president then. :)

[TheAnswer]

Well, the upside to that would be that Cheney would be president then. :)

Sounds good to me...the Wizard's not so tough when he's not hiding behind the curtain.

[miloblithe]

Sounds good to me...the Wizard's not so tough when he's not hiding behind the curtain.

I bet he'd set amazing new records for lowest approval ratings ever. All the bad ideas and none of the charm.

[Swarmlord]

<snip>Actually I was against the Afghan adventure, too...

So, we should have just taken the 9/11 attack in the shorts and wrung our hands until the next attack?:eek:

[princealfie]

So, we should have just taken the 9/11 attack in the shorts and wrung our hands until the next attack?:eek:

Nope, we have cleared out the folks who collected the gold bars and the oil companies which helped the Silverstein Group earn its billions. Too bad we went after the wrong guys again.

It's like watching the rerun of the fall guy and realized that MacGyver didn't do his own stunts.

[zimv20]

i've forgotten which side is doing the surge (link (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=4591410&p=459y4z5&n=4591502&x=)):

Two Iraqi politicians killed in Baghdad blast

Two Iraqi politicians were killed today when a bomb rocked the parliament building in the heavily-fortified Baghdad Green Zone.

The bombing was a stunning security breach in the third month of a US-Iraqi crackdown on violence in the capital, officials said.

At least four other people were wounded in the blast, which shook a cafeteria while several politicians were eating lunch, initial reports said.

(more)


attacks inside the green zone increasing: how long before the green zone is under siege?

[IJ Reilly]

attacks inside the green zone increasing: how long before the green zone is under siege?

Don't you mean, how long before it isn't?

[OldCorpse]

I was and am for the Afghanistan operation, though almost immediately I saw it being mishandled. I knew we were in deep trouble the moment we allowed the Pakistani forces to conduct operations in Bora Bora instead of doing it ourselves. That was a purely political decision, because we were afraid of casualties - meanwhile, the Pakistani forces has a long history of collaboration with the Taliban (indeed they largely created and sponsored that movement). The Bora Bora operation was doomed to fail - and it did. At that point it was clear to me that the Bush administration was going to be a disaster in the struggle against terror. Of course, I didn't dream that they'd be as bad as they turned out to be. Not only did we not go in with sufficient forces into Afghanistan, not only didn't we engage properly, not only did we not start working on the economic/political infrastructure until it was too late, but we actually pulled out forces from there to throw them into the catastrophy of the illegal and monumentally stupid war in Iraq. This is without question the worst administration since at least 1900 (can't say before, as I haven't studied administrations before 1900 carefully enough).

[zimv20]

Don't you mean, how long before it isn't?

i'm thinking more open siege, like ongoing rocket attacks, everyone seeking cover, and no one can come or go.

[Swarmlord]

Nope, we have cleared out the folks who collected the gold bars and the oil companies which helped the Silverstein Group earn its billions. Too bad we went after the wrong guys again.

It's like watching the rerun of the fall guy and realized that MacGyver didn't do his own stunts.

Yeah, that sounds more threatening to me than people using planes as weapons to kill themselves, the passengers and people in buildings. :rolleyes:

[princealfie]

Yeah, that sounds more threatening to me than people using planes as weapons to kill themselves, the passengers and people in buildings. :rolleyes:

Yeah but guess who paid the guys in planes eh?

Hmm... food for thought. Gold bars for collateral.

[Swarmlord]

Yeah but guess who paid the guys in planes eh?

Hmm... food for thought. Gold bars for collateral.

Exactly how were the terrorists that died in 9/11 going to spend this purported gold?

If I used some of the schemes you come up with for food for thought, my brain would starve to death. :rolleyes:

[princealfie]

Exactly how were the terrorists that died in 9/11 going to spend this purported gold?

If I used some of the schemes you come up with for food for thought, my brain would starve to death. :rolleyes:

Yummy, food for brains.
Well, I'm suggesting that we don't know all the details but where did the gold go?

And why a large insurance payout?

Hmm...

[Lord Blackadder]

i'm thinking more open siege, like ongoing rocket attacks, everyone seeking cover, and no one can come or go.

After the coalition leaves, there may very well be a civil war, which would probably see Kurdistan split from Arab Iraq, much to the dismay of Turkey. The Shias are likely to have the upper hand in their battles with the Sunnis, but neither side is capable of taking control.

[Swarmlord]

After the coalition leaves, there may very well be a civil war, which would probably see Kurdistan split from Arab Iraq, much to the dismay of Turkey. The Shias are likely to have the upper hand in their battles with the Sunnis, but neither side is capable of taking control.

It would be nice to see an independent Kurdistan. I did disagree with the administration bowing to Turkey to promise they wouldn't allow that. It will surely happen some day anyway.

[IJ Reilly]

i'm thinking more open siege, like ongoing rocket attacks, everyone seeking cover, and no one can come or go.

Ah. I thought that was a pretty near description of the situation as it exists now. It is the only place in the country that the Iraqis arguably govern.

[princealfie]

Ah. I thought that was a pretty near description of the situation as it exists now. It is the only place in the country that the Iraqis arguably govern.

Yeah, short of being blown up while eating lunch in the cafeteria, ouch. No where is safe there anymore in Iraq. :eek:

[zimv20]

Ah. I thought that was a pretty near description of the situation as it exists now. It is the only place in the country that the Iraqis arguably govern.

probably a poor choice of wording on my part. certainly, the green zone is and has been under siege. what i'm getting at is a much more open and obvious warfare, whereupon diplomats are being helicoptered out admist falling rockets, breached walls, and invading insurgents.

maybe i'm drawing too much a parallel with the fall of saigon and the retreat from the american embassy there.

[princealfie]

probably a poor choice of wording on my part. certainly, the green zone is and has been under siege. what i'm getting at is a much more open and obvious warfare, whereupon diplomats are being helicoptered out admist falling rockets, breached walls, and invading insurgents.

maybe i'm drawing too much a parallel with the fall of saigon and the retreat from the american embassy there.

Who cares about whether or not the zone is green? Everything there is suspect and dangerous.

[IJ Reilly]

probably a poor choice of wording on my part. certainly, the green zone is and has been under siege. what i'm getting at is a much more open and obvious warfare, whereupon diplomats are being helicoptered out admist falling rockets, breached walls, and invading insurgents.

maybe i'm drawing too much a parallel with the fall of saigon and the retreat from the american embassy there.

I see. I thought you might have been referring to the conspicuous absence of catapults and battering-rams. ;)

[skunk]

maybe i'm drawing too much a parallel with the fall of saigon and the retreat from the american embassy there.Being the largest US embassy in the world, I guess they'd hang on to the bitter end, always assuming they would recognise the bitter end when it arrived: after all, out of 1,000+ employees, there are apparently only SIX who speak Arabic fluently in the entire place. A.maz.ing.

[Ugg]

Being the largest US embassy in the world, I guess they'd hang on to the bitter end, always assuming they would recognise the bitter end when it arrived: after all, out of 1,000+ employees, there are apparently only SIX who speak Arabic in the entire place. A.maz.ing.

Are you serious? I knew that Arabic speakers were far and few between but that few? It's outrageous!

[skunk]

Are you serious? I knew that Arabic speakers were far and few between but that few? It's outrageous!http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N06193252.htm

Among the 1,000 people who work in the U.S. Embassy in Iraq, only 33 are Arabic speakers and only six speak the language fluently, according to the Iraq Study Group report released on Wednesday.
"All of our efforts in Iraq, military and civilian, are handicapped by Americans' lack of knowledge of language and cultural understanding," the bipartisan panel said in its report. "In a conflict that demands effective and efficient communication with Iraqis, we are often at a disadvantage."
The report, written by five Republicans and five Democrats, recommended the U.S. government give "the highest possible priority to professional language proficiency and cultural training" for officials headed to Iraq.
Strange but true.

[obeygiant]

Being the largest US embassy in the world, I guess they'd hang on to the bitter end, always assuming they would recognise the bitter end when it arrived: after all, out of 1,000+ employees, there are apparently only SIX who speak Arabic fluently in the entire place. A.maz.ing.



2
All of our efforts in Iraq, military and civilian, are handicapped by Americans’ lack of language and cultural understanding. Our embassy of 1,000 has 33 Arabic speakers, just six of whom are at the level of fluency. In a conflict that demands effective and efficient communication with Iraqis, we are often at a disadvantage. There are still far too few Arab language– proficient military and civilian officers in Iraq, to the detriment of the U.S. mission.

3

Civilian agencies also have little experience with complex overseas interventions to restore and maintain order—stability operations—outside of the normal embassy setting. The nature of the mission in Iraq is unfamiliar and dangerous, and the United States has had great difficulty filling civilian assignments in Iraq with sufficient numbers of properly trained personnel at the appropriate rank.

4

RECOMMENDATION 73: The Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, and the Director of National Intelligence should accord the highest possible priority to professional language proficiency and cultural training, in general and specifically for U.S. officers and personnel about to be assigned to Iraq

Iraq Study Group (http://www.futureofthebook.org/iraqreport/8-us-personnel)


I can't imagine its super easy to find arabic speakers who meet the qualifications to work at the embassy and/or want to work in Iraq.

[obeygiant]

Strange but true.

There are job openings.

http://careers.state.gov/opportunities/iraq/index.html

[solvs]

I can't imagine its super easy to find arabic speakers who meet the qualifications to work at the embassy and/or want to work in Iraq.

We had more, but we fired them because they were gay.

[princealfie]

We had more, but we fired them because they were gay.

Or the cannibals got to them first. :eek:

[Swarmlord]

<snip>I can't imagine its super easy to find arabic speakers who meet the qualifications to work at the embassy and/or want to work in Iraq.

If we weren't so busy learning Spanish maybe more people could study the language of our potential enemies. Thank God we have a whole island of Taiwanese that understand Chinese and a ton of East Indians living here that understand the dialects from that country.

[princealfie]

If we weren't so busy learning Spanish maybe more people could study the language of our potential enemies. Thank God we have a whole island of Taiwanese that understand Chinese and a ton of East Indians living here that understand the dialects from that country.

So you're assuming that anyone who knows Arabic is an enemy by default. Wow, that's scary. :p :eek:

[obeygiant]

We had more, but we fired them because they were gay.

gay arabs? thats almost a contradiction in terms considering the way the way they treat gay people in the ME.

Anyway, thats a funny statement, solvs. :)

btw, in order to be fluent in a language, one has to live, for a while, in the country where the language originates.

[miloblithe]

btw, in order to be fluent in a language, one has to live, for a while, in the country where the language originates.

Um, I think you've got the right sentiment, but you'll need to work on the phrasing. I mean, can you speak English fluently? :)

[miloblithe]

...and a ton of East Indians living here that understand the dialects from that country.

Are you referring to West Bengalis, Indonesians, or some other group or groups entirely?

[Queso]

If we weren't so busy learning Spanish maybe more people could study the language of our potential enemies. Thank God we have a whole island of Taiwanese that understand Chinese and a ton of East Indians living here that understand the dialects from that country.
India your potential enemy? Are you that desperate to keep the war machine going you're now gunning for the world's largest democracy?

[Swarmlord]

So you're assuming that anyone who knows Arabic is an enemy by default. Wow, that's scary. :p :eek:

Gotta go with the odds. If nine out of ten dogs bite you, do you still race to pet every dog you see?

[Swarmlord]

Are you referring to West Bengalis, Indonesians, or some other group or groups entirely?

India where I belive that Urdu and Hindi are the primary languages. I was referring to the two largest population countries in the world.

[princealfie]

Gotta go with the odds. If nine out of ten dogs bite you, do you still race to pet every dog you see?

Yeah, but dogs and humans are completely different species you know.

Perhaps you haven't met enough Arabs. :p :p :p :p

[Swarmlord]

Yeah, but dogs and humans are completely different species you know.

Perhaps you haven't met enough Arabs. :p :p :p :p

True. Dogs are more predictable.

Met enough Arabs? I lived in the Middle East for years. I'm still trying to find redeeming characteristics.:)

[princealfie]

True. Dogs are more predictable.

Met enough Arabs? I lived in the Middle East for years. I'm still trying to find redeeming characteristics.:)

That's because living in the Middle East and living amongst the people are different experiences. Lots of soldiers live in the Middle East but that doesn't make them qualified to talk about the culture at all.

It's like having a guy who watches 24 write up a review of Bones in the paper. Things like that don't jive.

[miloblithe]

India where I belive that Urdu and Hindi are the primary languages. I was referring to the two largest population countries in the world.

Urdu is number 6 in India and is much more widely spoken in Pakistan, where it is the national language.

Languages in India with more than 10 million native speakers:

Hindi 337
Bengali 189
Telugu 100
Marathi 70.6
Tamil 53.0
Urdu 43.4
Gujarati 40.7
Kannada 32.8
Maithili 35
Malayalam 30.4
Oriya 28.1
Punjabi 23.4
Assamese 13.1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_languages_by_total_speakers

Linguistically, it's better to think of India as another Europe rather than another China.

[Swarmlord]

That's because living in the Middle East and living amongst the people are different experiences. Lots of soldiers live in the Middle East but that doesn't make them qualified to talk about the culture at all.

It's like having a guy who watches 24 write up a review of Bones in the paper. Things like that don't jive.

I wasn't there as part of the military. I did live amongst them.

[Swarmlord]

Urdu is number 6 in India and is much more widely spoken in Pakistan, where it is the national language.

Languages in India with more than 10 million native speakers:

Hindi 337
Bengali 189
Telugu 100
Marathi 70.6
Tamil 53.0
Urdu 43.4
Gujarati 40.7
Kannada 32.8
Maithili 35
Malayalam 30.4
Oriya 28.1
Punjabi 23.4
Assamese 13.1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_languages_by_total_speakers

Linguistically, it's better to think of India as another Europe rather than another China.

Interesting. Thanks. I hadn't even heard of Telugu or Marathi!

The point is that for just about every heavily populated country we have a huge resource of people that can translate for us. We don't have the same resources for Farsi or Arabic though.:(

[skunk]

I wasn't there as part of the military. I did live amongst them.If you lived among them for years and failed to find any "redeeming qualities" in any of them, that says a whole lot more about your shortcomings than theirs. What an odious assertion.

[Swarmlord]

If you lived among them for years and failed to find any "redeeming qualities" in any of them, that says a whole lot more about your shortcomings than theirs. What an odious assertion.

My shortcomings? Why do you think that I was over there? You think they're capable of running the computer systems designed and installed by both Brits and Americans? They don't hire legions of ex-pats to work over there because they have money burning a hole in their thobes.

Don't even get me started on their "culture". You can get into an argument over there just talking about it. For some of them there was nothing before Mohammed. Wouldn't matter anyway. They don't allow tourism for culture lovers like yourself to go see it for yourself.

Get thee to the mosque, stat!

I didn't mean to say they had NO redeeming qualities, but when it's like picking fly specs out of a pepper shaker to identify any, it's just not worth it.

You sure can get a head start on experiencing global warming if you live there though. It's hot as Hades there during the summer.

[princealfie]

If you lived among them for years and failed to find any "redeeming qualities" in any of them, that says a whole lot more about your shortcomings than theirs. What an odious assertion.

That's alright. I'm already used to it... some people need their morning coffee, I need my morning entertainment! Better than TV.

[skunk]

My shortcomings?Why, yes. You clearly need to have your passport revoked. As someone born in the Persian Gulf and a long-time inhabitant of Muslim lands, I find your generalisations both ludicrous and offensive. Stay home. Please.

[princealfie]

Why, yes. You clearly need to have your passport revoked. As someone born in the Persian Gulf and a long-time inhabitant of Muslim lands, I find your generalisations both ludicrous and offensive. Stay home. Please.

Yeah, Swarmlord should not have a visa. :) I wonder whether Parisians will run away too? :eek:

[Swarmlord]

Why, yes. You clearly need to have your passport revoked. As someone born in the Persian Gulf and a long-time inhabitant of Muslim lands, I find your generalisations both ludicrous and offensive. Stay home. Please.

It's such a paradise, you must be dying to get back there then. If the fundamentalist muslims would follow your advice regarding western lands, we wouldn't be having this discussion or a war, would we?

[Queso]

My shortcomings?...blah...blah...blah
So where were you then? Saudi from the description I would say.

Saudi is not Qatar, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Jordan, or any other of the countries on the peninsula. Just like Spain, France, Portugal etc. come from a communal culture but have their own identities, so do the Arab states.

Mind you, I suppose us Yurpians are all the same too if you have an insular American mindset.

[Swarmlord]

So where were you then? Saudi from the description I would say.

Saudi is not Qatar, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Jordan, or any other of the countries on the peninsula. Just like Spain, France, Portugal etc. come from a communal culture but have their own identities, so do the Arab states.

Mind you, I suppose us Yurpians are all the same too if you have an insular American mindset.

Primarily Riyadh and Jeddah, but I traveled to Egypt, Qatar, Bahrain and the UAE also. The others weren't as bad as Saudi, but you wouldn't confuse them with the West either.

I do find it amusing that those complaining the most about the US are the biggest apologists for Muslim countries though. I couldn't be happier if they kept all their wonderfulness all to themselves.

[princealfie]

Primarily Riyadh and Jeddah, but I traveled to Egypt, Qatar, Bahrain and the UAE also. The others weren't as bad as Saudi, but you wouldn't confuse them with the West either.

I do find it amusing that those complaining the most about the US are the biggest apologists for Muslim countries though. I couldn't be happier if they kept all their wonderfulness all to themselves.

Guess that he didn't get his apropos fix of kebobs for the day.
Yeah, Big Mac, kebob, not a hard choice to go by. :rolleyes:

[pdham]

The others weren't as bad as Saudi, but you wouldn't confuse them with the West either.


Are you implying that if it is not like the west it is bad?

I actually think your comment above about them not being like the west has more to do wtih discussions like this and the war than does your implication in the quote below.

If the fundamentalist muslims would follow your advice regarding western lands, we wouldn't be having this discussion or a war, would we?

[OldCorpse]

Speaking of learning that a certain dog bites... that wouldn't be the same dog you've been tormenting, abusing, baiting and mistreating for no good reason, would it? And you're surprised that that particular dog can't wait to bite you?

We've been invading, mistreating, torturing and interfering in the Middle East for quite some time. Gee, do you think that may have something to do with the burning hatred we've so richly earned over there?

Arabs, or any culture doesn't just up and decide to oppose Mexico. Maybe, it's because Mexico doesn't invade them with murderous armies based on lies and forgeries, and doesn't interfere for decades in their lives. Could that be the explanation of this great mystery? Maybe if we decided to take care of our own business and our own needs, and dealt with Arabs with simple human decency, we too could have good relations with the Arabs? Hmm.

Yeah. Must be a problem with the Arabs. We must cultivate enmity and prepare for endless wars against them, because they hate us... it's in their culture, don't you know.

Let them determine their fate, choose their path, make their destiny. Trying to do it for them is unwelcome - just as we would not wish for them to invade us, murder, torture and destroy and impose their will on us, their systems of economy and government.

[skunk]

I do find it amusing that those complaining the most about the US are the biggest apologists for Muslim countries though. I couldn't be happier if they kept all their wonderfulness all to themselves.How extraordinary! That's exactly how Osama Bin Laden felt about you! What a shame you didn't listen to your own advice.

[Swarmlord]

How extraordinary! That's exactly how Osama Bin Laden felt about you! What a shame you didn't listen to your own advice.

His government invited both Brits and Americans over there to pull them out of biblical times in the short span of 75 years. We did the work and were paid handsomely for it. I don't remember our government inviting fundamentalist terrorists over to pilot our planes.

If people like Bin Laden have a problem with his country's foreign policy with the West maybe he should have taken it up with his King. I understand they're real open minded about criticism from their subjects over there.

Wake up and smell the schwarmas.

[OldCorpse]

"His government invited" - laugh out loud funny. If we didn't interfere in that region for decades, one could talk about "their governments". If we install a puppet and then instruct the puppet to "invite" us, how legitimate is that? Shah of Iran, anyone? Fact is, we've interefered directly and indirectly in that region with catastrophic consequences, and continue to do so, all over the region to this day. There can be no legitimacy to any such "invitation".

Here's how you do it: stop, effective immediately all interference in the ME - which includes funding the apartheid colonialist government of Israel which we finance to steal Arab land and oppress and murder Arabs on a daily basis. Pull out - 100%.

Let them shake out their own problems. And stop with the "bloody civil war and chaos will erupt if we pull out" nonsense. So what? It's none of our business. After all, didn't we have a civil war which finally determined the shape of this nation? Would we have appreciated Arabs coming over and occupying us under the pretext of preventing the Civil War? The colonial powers drew those borders and caused many long term internal problems - it'll take time to sort out. Once they arrive at their own forms of government, however they do it, only then can we come back based on mutual respect for each other's sovereignty.

[Queso]

Primarily Riyadh and Jeddah, but I traveled to Egypt, Qatar, Bahrain and the UAE also. The others weren't as bad as Saudi, but you wouldn't confuse them with the West either.
And why would you want to? They aren't the West, never were, never will be. I bet you'd get pretty riled up if someone tried to force a foreign value system on you, yet you expect them to just put up with it.

BTW, I was at university with several engineering students from the Gulf States. I can guarantee that a lot of those well-paid Westerners you mention are now replaced by home grown talent.

[solvs]

gay arabs? thats almost a contradiction in terms considering the way the way they treat gay people in the ME.
Um, Arabic translators. We had a whole bunch of them get fired for no other reason than being gay. Perhaps you didn't hear about it (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=translators+fired+for+being+gay&btnG=Google+Search).

Gotta go with the odds. If nine out of ten dogs bite you, do you still race to pet every dog you see?
What if 1 out of 1,000 do it? Or a million? Do you still hate all dogs? I'm guessing they get a pretty bad sampling of us sometimes too. Hoping they don't think we're all like that.

Been to some pretty bad areas with some pretty bad people right here in the US too, doesn't mean it's all bad.

I couldn't be happier if they kept all their wonderfulness all to themselves.
I'm sure they feel the same way about us. If they're so backwards, let them be. I'm thinking if they're as bad as you seem to think, maybe we shouldn't be invading them to force "freedom" down the barrel of a gun.