DivX and Xvid now on appleTV

[psychofreak]

Here (http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/10/how-to-play-divx-and-xvid-on-your-apple-tv/) is the engadget article...at last a solid reason to buy this thing...

[clevin]

Warning: you're about to engage in some serious, potentially warranty-voiding hacking. Just the way you like it, right? Ready to get your hands dirty? We need to download a few files first.

well, how many ppl will do that?

[daveL]

well, how many ppl will do that?

The article didn't mention that you can boot full OS X from a USB disk and avoid opening up the ATV case to make the other mods.

[psychofreak]

The article didn't mention that you can boot full OS X from a USB disk and avoid opening up the ATV case to make the other mods.

Can you do that?

[balamw]

The article didn't mention that you can boot full OS X from a USB disk and avoid opening up the ATV case to make the other mods.

Can you do a dd backup of the internal drive while booted to the external USB?

I haven't seen any evidence of that so far, but I don't see any reason why that would not be doable, unless the internal drive is disabled while booted to the external.

B

[clevin]

jesus, like opening ATV is more work than making a USB OSX booting disk?

[aristobrat]

jesus, like opening ATV is more work than making a USB OSX booting disk?
It's a lot more physical work, and if you don't have a 2.5" enclosure laying around, more expensive, too. ;)

[daveL]

I always have a USB/FW external disk for backups, so it's a no-brainer for me.

http://www.appletvhacks.net/2007/04/03/hack-the-apple-tv-without-opening-the-case/

[thestaton]

can someone point out the guide for doing it with a usb thumb drive? i'd rather not have to open it up :)

[Simon R.]

It would be amazing if someone would come up with a super easy solution for mod'ing your ATV, or if you could go into a shop and get it fixed like you can with a PS2 or your phone:) Then I would definitely consider getting an ATV, if I knew it would play DivX and other formats (HD-DivX?).

[clevin]

for a $300 machine, apple needs to make it easier than these difficult hack. exactly what market is apple targeting?

[balamw]

for a $300 machine, apple needs to make it easier than these difficult hack. exactly what market is apple targeting?

People whose media is already in an Apple TV compatible format (e.g. MPEG-4). It is easy and it does work out of the box, but just like the iPod it doesn't support any random codec out there. Just like putting Rockbox on your $399 iPod, you get more functionality at the expense of hacking the box.

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[clevin]

People whose media is already in an Apple TV compatible format (e.g. MPEG-4). It is easy and it does work out of the box, but just like the iPod it doesn't support any random codec out there. Just like putting Rockbox on your $399 iPod, you get more functionality at the expense of hacking the box.

B

well, thats different situation, iPod may not support all codecs, but it supported most important codecs, mp3.

now, what video codec is most widely used? obviously not the one appletv officially supported.

[dongmin]

jeez, have y'all been living under a rock the last few weeks??? this has been all over the web. macrumors has had no fewer than five articles on this...

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/31/apple-tv-running-mac-os-x/
http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/23/apple-tv-upgrades-xvid-and-more-support-120gb-hd/
http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/26/apple-tv-booting-off-external-usb/

anyways, ATV hacking guides can be found on:

http://www.appletvhacks.net/

[TheManOfSilver]

I don't yet have a high-def TV, but even if I did, there still isn't quite enough enticing me to spend even $300 on :apple:TV. DivX and Xvid suppor make it a little more appealing (if as others have said that it wasn't quite so much work), but I think I'll still be waiting for the 2G :apple:TV to bite.

[balamw]

well, thats different situation, iPod may not support all codecs, but it supported most important codecs, mp3.

now, what video codec is most widely used? obviously not the one appletv officially supported.

DivX is just one random implementation/variant of MPEG-4 Part 2, and is only dominant in some areas. I had a recent torrent freak house guest who downloads all his "content" in Real Video 10. So which implementation(s) should Apple support? DivX, Xvid, Nero Digital, Microsoft, Flash, Real, ...? Or should they officially support the actual MPEG-4 standard in containers they know how to deal with and support?

Note that for some encoding profiles you could probably just get away with repackaging the DivX/Xvid content into a MOV/M4V container and have it work.

This way Apple gets to have its cake and eat it too. They officially support two good standard codecs than can be encoded using a wide variety of tools and support for other codecs is available as a hack, but is not supported.

Just like some content (paid/legal or not) started to move to iPod compatible codecs and formats, I think you'll see a rise in :apple:TV compatible content soon.

B

[aristobrat]

Just like some content (paid/legal or not) started to move to iPod compatible codecs and formats, I think you'll see a rise in :apple:TV compatible content soon.
That's been my thought as well. I can't wait for that to happen, as well as the hacking guides to mature a bit.

For having been out for ~3-4 weeks now, the AppleTV has been "enhanced" way more than I had ever expected! :eek:

[Rocketman]

It would be amazing if someone would come up with a super easy solution for mod'ing your ATV, or if you could go into a shop and get it fixed like you can with a PS2 or your phone:) Then I would definitely consider getting an ATV, if I knew it would play DivX and other formats (HD-DivX?).

Apple Certified Upgraders :)

Rocketman

[Krevnik]

Note that for some encoding profiles you could probably just get away with repackaging the DivX/Xvid content into a MOV/M4V container and have it work.

B

This actually does work... sometimes. DivX does some weird things with B-Frames that AVI files can't handle, but MP4 files are supposed to have set. So that missing data tends to screw with Quicktime if you use more than 1 B-Frame in a group of pictures.

Unfortunately, you don't know what media does this until you try to convert it. :(

[clevin]

DivX is just one random implementation/variant of MPEG-4 Part 2, and is only dominant in some areas. I had a recent torrent freak house guest who downloads all his "content" in Real Video 10. So which implementation(s) should Apple support? DivX, Xvid, Nero Digital, Microsoft, Flash, Real, ...? Or should they officially support the actual MPEG-4 standard in containers they know how to deal with and support?

Note that for some encoding profiles you could probably just get away with repackaging the DivX/Xvid content into a MOV/M4V container and have it work.


T

huh, its not up to you and me to decide which codec is popular, im sorry. To put forward options like Nero Digital, Flash, as candidate of "most widely used codecs" is just, muddling the water. we are talking about compressed movies, are we?

also, are you saying divx/xvid codec with MP4 container will work on ATV? Never have any experience with that, care to share some links?

even if so, there will be still a process of conversion, no?

[balamw]

even if so, there will be still a process of conversion, no?
No. It's still a variant of MPEG-4, just in a different container, and with (sometimes) different rules as to which of a I, B, P frame needs to be created. (See the post by Krevnik above.) I know that the author of visualhub was working on a tool that would aid in this process, google flattercmd.

I ask the question again. Popular to whom? It seems like different codecs are popular in different circles. You just happen to see mainly DivX, while my house guest only sees Real Video 10. Which should Apple support?

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[clevin]

No. It's still a variant of MPEG-4, just in a different container, and with (sometimes) different rules as to which of a I, B, P frame needs to be created. (See the post by Krevnik above.) I know that the author of visualhub was working on a tool that would aid in this process, google flattercmd.

I ask the question again. Popular to whom? It seems like different codecs are popular in different circles. You just happen to see mainly DivX, while my house guest only sees Real Video 10. Which should Apple support?

B
huh, yes, different population may prefer different codec. I, was talking about generally, whole user group who watch compressed movies.

Real Video 10 is a generally low quality codec, and most importantly, apple tv supports neither real nor divx/xvid, so whats your point of bringing it up?

you ask me which should apple support? my answer, and u can read it clearly
all popular codecs for compressed videos, including real, divx/xvid, h.264.

now, who said apple tv should not support them? or apple tv can only pick and choose some of them to support?

[balamw]

now, who said apple tv should not support them? or apple tv can only pick and choose some of them to support?

Support = cost. Either Apple needs to write their own software, license someone else's code or use OSS software. In each case support for more features means more development cost and more recurring tech support cost.

EDIT: Would you pay $50 more for :apple:TV if it supported DivX/Xvid?

Uh. I've got this Uh. RMVB file I Uh. found. Uh. Yeah, that's it, found. And I want to Uh. watch it on my :apple:TV, but it doesn't work. Your *(&%*#$ :apple:TV cut out right at the climactic scene.

Codec? Bitrate? Version of encoder? Essentially Apple, would have to license Real's Real Video 10 code to guarantee compatibilty, make sure it works and interface it appropriately with the :apple:TVs UI.

the :apple:TV is sold as an appliance, not a full fledged computer that can take third-party software like Real Player or VLC which Apple doesn't offer support for on Macs either. Apple does offer a solution for that market too, it's called a Mac mini and sells for $599.

Time will tell if they actually do "open up" the :apple:TV so some limited third-party apps like the oft rumored games. Maybe they'll even come up with a good, simple third party codec API that will allow for unsupported use with other codecs just as on full OS X.

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[clevin]

Support = cost. Either Apple needs to write their own software, license someone else's code or use OSS software.

EDIT: Would you pay $50 more for :apple:TV if it supported DivX/Xvid?



for a tv top set that costs $300
Im surprised u even make such statement. sounds like u think apple profits barely nothing from this apple tv?

ur EDIT: how about lower current price $50 since it doesn't support divx/xvid/real?

[aristobrat]

or apple tv can only pick and choose some of them to support?
I'm sure AppleTV supporting Divx/Xvid would go over very well in their negotiations to get more Hollywood film studios signed up for the iTunes Store.

[balamw]

for a tv top set that costs $300
Im surprised u even make such statement. sounds like u think apple profits barely nothing from this apple tv?
No, I think that :apple: makes a decent margin on the device and wants it to stay that way.

I think you're missing the other fact of :apple:TV. It's not a mass-market appliance. It requires a widescreen TV/monitor (yes, I know some have made it work on 4:3 TVs) with HDMI or component inputs and also requires a computer with iTunes.

If you assume a high, but not atypical, 40% gross margin allocated equally to R&D, General & administrative costs, marketing and profit. Apple only gets ~$30 profit and/or R&D money from each :apple:TV. Even with tech support in India, a few hours of time on the phone will easily eat up that $30, not to mention the extra development time/costs.

EDIT: Just to clarify. I'm assuming the recurring cost of an :apple:TV is ~$180 and $120 on top of that is margin. $180 seems perfectly reasonable to me for the cost of the components Apple has picked.

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[clevin]

I think you're missing the other fact of :apple:TV. It's not a mass-market appliance. It requires a widescreen TV/monitor (yes, I know some have made it work on 4:3 TVs) with HDMI or component inputs and also requires a computer with iTunes.


u probably right on that.

I'm sure AppleTV supporting Divx/Xvid would go over very well in their negotiations to get more Hollywood film studios signed up for the iTunes Store.

if u mean not supporting divx/xvid will give apple more weight in negotiations, then plz say so.

however, do remember for hollywood business, h.264 isn't any different from any other codec on piracy issue.

[Krevnik]

if u mean not supporting divx/xvid will give apple more weight in negotiations, then plz say so.

however, do remember for hollywood business, h.264 isn't any different from any other codec on piracy issue.

Yes and no.

H.264 is used in the iTunes store (which has DRM). XviD is popular in the pirate scene that provide rips to BitTorrent, and for personal DVD rips (both of which make CEOs in the MPAA unhappy).

So, by supporting a format Apple doesn't use to make the MPAA money, why should the MPAA help Apple make money?

And as for the piracy issue, it is possible to make a DVD rip that is Apple TV-friendly personally... so Apple has even less reason to support XviD/AVI.

[Krevnik]

also, are you saying divx/xvid codec with MP4 container will work on ATV? Never have any experience with that, care to share some links?

even if so, there will be still a process of conversion, no?

Look at Handbrake. It lets you use XviD to encode to an MP4 container. It works great in iTunes and Apple TV too.

The only incompatibilities is that when in an AVI container, DivX/XviD do some unsupported things to make MPEG-4 in an AVI container work. So when you pass that stream from the AVI container, it doesn't always work as expected once it is in an MP4 container (since there are no apps that will analyze an MPEG-4 raw stream and set the right bits in an MP4 container yet, but encoders can do the right thing).

[Yvan256]

also, are you saying divx/xvid codec with MP4 container will work on ATV? Never have any experience with that, care to share some links?

even if so, there will be still a process of conversion, no?

Neither DivX nor XviD are CODECs. They both (usually) contain MPEG-4 video with MP3 audio, inside an .avi container. Some files have VBR MP3 which AFAIK isn't even supported by .avi, why is why some DivX files hang my Mac mini for 30 seconds and others play just fine.

The :apple:TV supports MPEG-4 and H.264 audio with AAC audio inside regular industry-standard .mp4 containers.

If your DivX/XviD files contain valid MPEG-4 video data, simply re-encoding the audio into AAC and then repackaging everything into a .mp4 file should be possible.

Just because the whole underground scene has settled on MPEG-4/MP3 data inside .avi containers doesn't mean it's a standard. I agree that it's widely used, enough to have mainstream brands DivX-compatible DVD players, but we also see lots of those DVD players with "WMA compatible" stickers and I don't anyone who uses WMA for storing his music.

Instead of being angry at Apple for only supporting real standards, be angry at the pirates for settling with .avi and even sometimes breaking the specs of the container they've chosen themselves.

I, for one, am happy that we finally got a mainstream box with H.264 support instead of the usual DivX crap.

[Krevnik]

Neither DivX nor XviD are CODECs. They both (usually) contain MPEG-4 video with MP3 audio, inside an .avi container. Some files have VBR MP3 which AFAIK isn't even supported by .avi, why is why some DivX files hang my Mac mini for 30 seconds and others play just fine.

DivX and XviD are codecs (XviD is an open-source attempt at replacing DivX, and DivX was a reverse-engineering of a Microsoft reference codec for MPEG-4 before it went final, and DivX has recently started following the spec more closely). It is just that 'DivX files' have grown to mean: "MPEG-4 video encoded by DivX/XviD, and MP3 in an AVI container". Matroska has been growing in popularity as a replacement for AVI lately.

You have to admit, a codec getting strong branding on its own, when really just being an implementation of an MPEG-4 video codec is pretty impressive.

[clevin]

Neither DivX nor XviD are CODECs. They both (usually) contain MPEG-4 video with MP3 audio, inside an .avi container. Some files have VBR MP3 which AFAIK isn't even supported by .avi, why is why some DivX files hang my Mac mini for 30 seconds and others play just fine.

DivX/Xvid is container not codecs? are you serious?if u wanna establish a totally new terming system, I guess we can't do any discussion anymore. lol


The :apple:TV supports MPEG-4 and H.264 audio with AAC audio inside regular industry-standard .mp4 containers.

If your DivX/XviD files contain valid MPEG-4 video data, simply re-encoding the audio into AAC and then repackaging everything into a .mp4 file should be possible.

simply re-encoding and then repackaging... sure u, (maybe me) can do that with no problem, but is that "simple" for general users?

of course, if u admit appleTV is not for those ppl who watch divx/xvid movies while not really anything close to be able to transcoding movies, then I have no problem at all.

Just because the whole underground scene has settled on MPEG-4/MP3 data inside .avi containers doesn't mean it's a standard. I agree that it's widely used, enough to have mainstream brands DivX-compatible DVD players, but we also see lots of those DVD players with "WMA compatible" stickers and I don't anyone who uses WMA for storing his music.

standard? real standard? is there ever a standard for compressed videos? apple's supporting of H.264 does mean H.264 is standard, right? real standard? lol, which international organization made H.264 "real standard"?

Instead of being angry at Apple for only supporting real standards, be angry at the pirates for settling with .avi and even sometimes breaking the specs of the container they've chosen themselves.

I, for one, am happy that we finally got a mainstream box with H.264 support instead of the usual DivX crap.
I am not angry,:) im not the one who will surfer because they produce a product that can't meet ppl's need, nor am i the one who bought a brand product then find it useless. (sure many ppl will find it useful, Im not targeting those users, if u can tell.)

Main stream box with H.264? I really don't think appletv is mainstream yet, nor do I think H.264 is much better than divx/xvid, (sure the graphic quality is 15% better, but u need triple time to encode it)

[The General]

Well, I have the processor power and time to transcode all my Divx/Xvid stuff to work with the :apple:TV, but it looks like it would easier to just mod the :apple:TV and install the plugins and be done with it.

I don't want to open it, but if I have to, well, I guess that's part of being a pirate.

[balamw]

standard? real standard? is there ever a standard for compressed videos? apple's supporting of H.264 does mean H.264 is standard, right? real standard? lol, which international organization made H.264 "real standard"?


H.264, MPEG-4 Part 10, or AVC (for Advanced Video Coding), is a digital video codec standard that is noted for achieving very high data compression. It was written by the ITU-T Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG) together with the ISO/IEC Moving Picture Experts Group (MPEG) as the product of a collective partnership effort known as the Joint Video Team (JVT). The ITU-T H.264 standard and the ISO/IEC MPEG-4 Part 10 standard (formally, ISO/IEC 14496-10) are jointly maintained so that they have identical technical content. The final drafting work on the first version of the standard was completed in May 2003.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264

Essentially, the industry has made it a standard (almost 4 years old) which is part of the MPEG-4 family of standards.

http://www.iso.org
http://www.itu.org
http://www.iec.ch/

Oh yeah, and these guys

http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/

B