Backlash against the British Sailors

[OldCorpse]

It looks like there is a backlash brewing over the conduct of the British sailors taken captive by the Iranians. As tales of exceptionally good treatment leak out (replete with getting "goody bags" from the Iranians), the whining about thin sheets they had to sleep on, and confiscated iPods begin to chafe - especially when at the same time 4 British soldiers were killed in Iraq. Here's a conservative perspective, with interesting discussion later on:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/david_cox/2007/04/shameless.html#comment-520229

"The Sun, the now officially approved disseminator of British military information, notes that navigator Arthur Batchelor was "tormented" by being called "Mr Bean". Understandably, he had to cry himself to sleep. Perhaps President Ahmadinejad feared that the goody bags might just prove a step too far. But no, they were gratefully received, in a response that aptly captures the infantilisation of a people that once ruled much of the world. Navigator Batchelor has however since complained that the quality of his own bag's contents was not what he had hoped."

[Bibulous]

link - Warning! Pat Buchanan (http://buchanan.org/blog/?p=707)


"As for the British military, however, it has sustained a humiliation.

What kind of rules of engagement were these Marines operating under to permit themselves to be surrounded, captured and disarmed without firing a shot? What kind of training did they have? How was it that, in days, if not hours, some were parroting the story line fed them by their captors, that they regretted having violated Iranian territory and wished to express remorse. As yet, there is no evidence any were tortured.

The episode reveals the decline of once-Great Britain.

What could today’s Britain have done? Unlike the Falklands war of 25 years ago, the Royal Navy is not what it was, and Tony Blair is not Margaret Thatcher. The Brits may have the nuclear weapons to destroy Iran. In conventional power, they are like the rest of the EU, light weights at best."

[OldCorpse]

Sure, but there are no heros here. None. Not the British sailors. You can criticize them, and they are being lambasted left and right. Fine. However, consider this: maybe from their point of view, they don't believe in the mission in the first place! Why should they die for a lie? What is the point? To save Blair's honor? You know, if they fought in the defence of God, Queen and Country, they might be ready, indeed eager for the sacrifice. But to die for a filthy lie clumsily told, long exposed, and in complete disgrace? You blame them?

In order to expect military honor, you have to have an honorable mission.

As is, the mission is a disgrace, and disgrace is the result.

The sooner U.S./UK get out of the illegal war in Iraq, the better for all concerned.

[obeygiant]

It is understandable that it should have been Iran that so accurately identified the current character of the British. Iranians adhere to a religion that holds to specific beliefs, and requires specified conduct. Only a couple of decades ago, they sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives without question in an eight-year patriotic war. The contrast between their attitudes and ours must have been blinding. Yet, we British should hardly be surprised by what we have learned about ourselves.

We might not have the stomach to fight the equivalent of an Iran-Iraq war. Today, we could not even reclaim the Falklands, if Argentina bothered to re-invade them. After this month's events, we may no longer be capable of striking terror into our foes, and this may ultimately mean we have to cease "punching above our weight" on the world stage.

.

[skunk]

What kind of rules of engagement were these Marines operating under to permit themselves to be surrounded, captured and disarmed without firing a shot?We are not at war with Iran. We are NOT AT WAR WITH IRAN. Do you understand? Nod once for "Yes".

While I blame the commander of the Cornwall for not providing adequate air cover, I certainly do not blame the sailors for declining to be machine-gunned and/or trigger a war by inappropriate heroics. It's bad enough to have our geopolitical landcape dictated by the puerile fantasies of that idiot Bush and his equally idiotic poodle, but to have fifteen unfortunate sailors set off a major geopolitical earthquake through some misguided sense of heroism in a cause which they hardly understand would be an unqualified disaster.

[Lord Blackadder]

While I blame the commander of the Cornwall for not providing adequate air cover, I certainly do not blame the sailors for declining to be machine-gunned and/or trigger a war by inappropriate heroics.

You were expressing disgust towards their passivity in another thread...which is it? I agree wholhearteldy that a fight was never a realistic option.

It's bad enough to have our geopolitical landcape dictated by the puerile fantasies of that idiot Bush and his equally idiotic poodle, but to have fifteen unfortunate sailors set off a major geopolitical earthquake through some misguided sense of heroism in a cause which they hardly understand would be an unqualified disaster.

The UK tabloid press is a disgrace, though the soldiers would have done better to have kept their mouths shut, both in Tehran and at home.

This entire incident could hardly be more embarassing for the UK, and the Iranian hardliners are lapping it up.

[solvs]

As I've said, I don't blame them for being scared. I doubt most of us do. But the complaining seems odd from soldiers. Guess we expect more, and they're acting like they were treated as badly as we treat our prisoners. Which they weren't. I'm sure the video released is propaganda, and I'm sure they were uncomfortable and afraid something worse might happen to them, but it's just really hard to feel sympathy when they're acting like this. Not that I expected them to stand up to their captors either. Whether they were guilty or not, or whether they believed in their cause or not. It's just that, it's over, they were released. It sucked, I'm sure. But they're home. It's over now. Meanwhile, how many are still stuck in places like Abu Gahrib or Gitmo? Even the innocent. Being tortured for real.

How bad have things gotten that we now take Iran's side against ourselves and our allies?

[skunk]

You were expressing disgust towards their passivity in another thread...which is it? I agree wholhearteldy that a fight was never a realistic option.I was dismayed by their talk, not their inaction.

[edesignuk]

I think those that have sold their "stories" should all be dishonourably discharged, and as for that one who said that he cried when he was locked up :rolleyes: :rolleyes: What a complete and utter embarrassment, all of them.

[solvs]

I think those that have sold their "stories" should all be dishonourably discharged, and as for that one who said that he cried when he was locked up :rolleyes: :rolleyes: What a complete and utter embarrassment, all of them.

So it's not just us then? Good, I was worried I was just being one of those stereotypical hardass Americans. I mean, like I've been saying, I get that they were scared. But, I mean... comeon!

I realize there are other brits here, but most of you are regulars and I know how you feel already.

[edesignuk]

So it's not just us then? Good, I was worried I was just being one of those stereotypical hardass Americans. I mean, like I've been saying, I get that they were scared. But, I mean... comeon!

I realize there are other brits here, but most of you are regulars and I know how you feel already.No it's not just you. They're a disgrace. I can get by them twating around on Iranian TV like puppets, they weren't giving anything away (other than their dignity) in doing so, and possibly helped avoid things escalating. However, to come back and sell their wholly uneventful stories and tell of how they cried like babies is outrageous. I hope they get pelted with tomatoes in the street. They should be ashamed and embarrassed for themselves, as should the tabloids that paid them for that matter.

*I'm aware not all of the 15 have gone this route, some have kept their mouths shut. good on them. I'm talking about the unfortunate few here.

[princealfie]

What would happen if the British soldiers made up the whole tall tale just to get publicity and get tons of moolah to earn the right to write a book? Who knows, right? :eek:

[obeygiant]

What would happen if the British soldiers made up the whole tall tale just to get publicity and get tons of moolah to earn the right to write a book? Who knows, right? :eek:

There can't be a conspiracy for everything.

[Swarmlord]

There can't be a conspiracy for everything.

That's not what the implant tells him.

[princealfie]

That's not what the implant tells him.

I guess that you do not have the right to question eh?
Trust everything hmm? :rolleyes:

[Lord Blackadder]

I'm aware not all of the 15 have gone this route, some have kept their mouths shut. good on them. I'm talking about the unfortunate few here.

I gave them the full benefit of the doubt until they returned to the UK, but at least some of them have not behaved as they should. It is wrong for pundits and op-ed loudmouths to denigrate the whole service based on the actions of a few individuals, but it does damage the reputation of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines.

It's a shame that things have gone the route they have - the MoD should muzzled them. Perhaps some of them shouldn't have been in the Gulf in the first place.

I'm sure there are many brave men and women in the service who fell betrayed by the way a few of the soldiers behaved.