Camcorder for film student

[MacInMich]

My son is a college student majoring in Communications. He is heavily into film and wants a camcorder to shoot short movies and edit them on a Mac. I've done some research and figure miniDV is the way to go for image quality. I'm undecided on HD vs DV ... I've seen comments that editing HD is more difficult(?). I've seen pros and cons on Sony vs Canon and am comfortable choosing either.

So ... image quality, camera features (manual focus, video effects, etc) and the ability to edit are the primary issues. Any comments or suggestions would be welcomed ...

[trudd]

My son is a college student majoring in Communications. He is heavily into film and wants a camcorder to shoot short movies and edit them on a Mac. I've done some research and figure miniDV is the way to go for image quality. I'm undecided on HD vs DV ... I've seen comments that editing HD is more difficult(?). I've seen pros and cons on Sony vs Canon and am comfortable choosing either.

So ... image quality, camera features (manual focus, video effects, etc) and the ability to edit are the primary issues. Any comments or suggestions would be welcomed ...

I found myself in the same boat a few years ago (well, sort of. I'm on the student end of the situation..). I chose the Canon GL2. I was still scratching the surface of things and I wanted to start out in SD before going to HD. There are times when I wish had gotten an XL series, but after doing some traveling I enjoy the size of the GL2.

If you want to lean toward HDV, take a look at the Canon XH-A1. I was able to play with one a few weeks ago and, if it had been on the market when I was shopping, I would have definitely considered getting it.

I don't have much experience with Sony camcorders. I've only used the V1U for some b-roll.

[bigbossbmb]

Don't forget Panasonic... they are king of the indie-film world. You should check and see if your kid's school has an equipment checkout for the film department. They may be able to let him play with some of the video cameras. For starting out, a good 3-chip 1/4" camera is good (Canon GL1/2, Panasonic DVC30, I don't know Sony's offering in this spot).

The next step up would be a 1/3" 3-chip...but this is where HD prices are starting to cut in. Definitely wait until after NAB to purchase anything.

[trudd]

I forgot to mention, the GL2 has manual focus, 3CCD, fluorite lens, 20x optical zoom and a few customizable functions to boot.

One reason I would opt for the XH-A1 (besides HDV) is the built in XLR input for audio lines. Even if he didn't want to start in HD, the XH-A1 can shoot in both SD and HDV, allowing a low-bandwidth alternative as he learns how to use the camera.

[MacInMich]

I forgot to mention, the GL2 has manual focus, 3CCD, fluorite lens, 20x optical zoom and a few customizable functions to boot.

One reason I would opt for the XH-A1 (besides HDV) is the built in XLR input for audio lines. Even if he didn't want to start in HD, the XH-A1 can shoot in both SD and HDV, allowing a low-bandwidth alternative as he learns how to use the camera.

Uhhhmmmm ... maybe I should have listed a price constraint, too. $3k to $4k is a bit out of my intended range. I would definitely like to stay under $2k.

Thanks!

[puckhead193]

can the OP adopt me :D j/k. What school is he going/applying to?
I forgot the model number but a certain member of this forum is obsessed with some Sony HD camera... if you do a search it will come up. I think its like $1500, but don't quote me on this.

edit i found some info
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=289436

[anim8or]

Im just finishing my degree in animation/film studies.

I mainly produce animation but have had commissions for live action too...

In my short experience i wish i had purchased a HD camcorder.

The resolution issues i have had doing effects etc on SD was troubling at times and i definitely feel that HD would have given me more to work with.

With SD there is only one way and that is standard or less, at least with a HD camera your son would have options and also a future proof camera (kind of)

With all of the advances in HD media on the horizon i would say sooner is better to start using HD.

My two cents

[zioxide]

I'd recommend the Canon HV20. It's HDV and shoots real 24p, which is a must for real film work. And it's only $1100.

[Carl Spackler]

I believe the ultimate budget camera for any film student or indie is the Canon HV20. You don't get all the bells and whistles of the A1, but the images "the Beast" as it's been dubbed are stunning. It shoots 24p and the CMOS is stunning. The MSRP is something like $1099.

Your son does not need a prosumer camera like the A1, in my opinion, as he'll have access to equipement like this from his school.

You can find users and footage for the HV20 at DVinfo (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=139) and DVXuser (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?f=104). Take a gander at what some of the iamges the HV20 produces. Here (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91204)is an excellent example of straight out of the camera footage.

The delivery for HD contents is not quite there, but it's just around the corner. Skate to where the puck is going, as our turtlenecked demi-god would say.

[bigbossbmb]

the canon HV20 and the Sony HC-7 aren't really good options since they don't have real focus and iris rings. they are more for home videos and not filmmaking.

I would definitely suggest going SD. The problem with HD is that people just assume it helps in filmmaking when it doesn't, necessarily. Your son needs to learn how to tell a story with video. Those skills come across no matter what resolution your video is.

It is also like buying a computer, or hard drives, or whatever tends to fall in price fairly fast... buy what you need now. there is no sense in trying to 'future proof'. Don't pay the premium for HD now when your son can get the skills he needs AND decides he would like to pursue filmmaking (that'll most likely be a couple of years from now). Then you can get a much better camera for the premium you'd be paying now.


I'm a 4th year film student. I did my thesis project last quarter. There were 7-8 kids in my class that bought HD cameras and used them on their projects. All but two of them looked like ***** because the kids had no idea how to make a film/use a camera properly. The other two looked good (equal to my SD film) but the people had no idea how to engage an audience or tell a story, so they were the most boring/pointless films in the class.


I bought my DVX100B last October and it serves me well. I have no reservations or regrets about buying an SD camera because the resolution of the video plays a very small role in the quality of student films (and most other projects for that matter).

[zioxide]

Here (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91204)is an excellent example of straight out of the camera footage.

Wow, thats the first real clip I've seen of the HV20, and I must say, it's better than I expected. Way better than the clips I've seen of the Sony HC7.

Now where the hell am I going to find the $1100 :/

[LethalWolfe]

I couldn't agree with bigbossbmb's post more. The fundamental skills needed to be develop are independent of the image resolution of your camera and there's far more to creating a good looking image than whether or not you are shooting SD or HD. If your son is heavy into movie making getting a point-n-shoot camera (consumer cameras like the HC-7 or HV20) will be an hindrance, shooting SD on a camera w/more manual controls (like the GL2, DVX100, VX2100 etc.,.) will not.

A crappy movie shot on HD is still a crappy movie. A good movie on SD is still a good movie. I had a friend in college (nearly 7-8 years ago now) that got a job offer from Dateline NBC from a class project he shot on an S-VHS camera. That project still gets shown every semester in the prof's class.


Lethal

[Carl Spackler]

Crap in, crap out. It doesn't matter if you shoot VHS or 70mm. Why not give yourself a more robust palette? OP's kid could be the next Conrad Hall.

Though I can see an argument for a more "manual" camera, most of the sub $10K cameras are quasi-manual anyway. This goes for my XL2, which is about as manual as it gets in the affordable SD world. I think Canon's 6x lens for the H1 and the JVC have hard stops, markings and f/stops on the barrel and that's about it. Unless you're using a rack focus rig, the little wheel on the HV20 is not going to much more problematic than the infinity focus ring on any other "manual" camera. I'd test one out, they're suprisingly accurate and responsive.

[iMacZealot]

I've owned both Sony and Canon, and I am more impressed with Sony. I think the Carl Zeiss lenses deliver better quality, and the displays in the cameras are better quality.

If you really want to get him a nice camera, I saw a Sony HD camcorder for under $1000 yesterday at the Sony Style store. miniDV wouldn't be bad, but HD would certainly be a nice gift.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

1,000th post! :) Can't believe I've reached it already!

[poppe]

I'm not sure what your budget is, but I'd go with the Panasonic DVX 100if you want SD. and the HVX 200 if you want HD. Both are great cameras.

Especially when you throw an adapter on it and some 35 mm lenses.

The DVX has a beautiful look to it. I was actually pretty skeptical when I was using the DVX on my last shoot, but after I got it the project looked awesome for a DV camera.

If you want to check out footage I am sure there are HVX and DVX footage at DVXuser.com
-----------------
I think Sony and Canon are lacking a little. I haven't worked with Sony much so the very few instances I have not been to impressed, but Canon has really been letting me down. The XL2 has a pretty good image and some really nice features. The XL-H1 is where I was really disappointed. Beautiful design what not, but the little things like Canon's own version of 24p and junk got me a little nervous; that and the quality was good, but still not as good as the HVX.

[MacDann]

Give serious consideration to the former generation of Panasonic DV camcorders. The GS-500 is one of the best 3 CCD models on the market, and it's earlier cousin, the GS-400, is highly sought after by indie and prosumer users, due to the wide range of settings and features it has. You can spend under $1500 for a GS-400 and all the goodies necessary to make it ready for production (mikes, tripods, mounts, etc.) and be far better off than dropping that much for a camera alone.

I shoot video for a local university on contract, and I can use their high end stuff or my GS-500. I use my GS-500 and the output looks far better than their high end ENG cameras in many cases.

As mentioned previously, buying an HD camcorder is not going to make them a better cinematographer. I, like a number of previous posters, have seen professionally produced video done of consumer grade cameras - it's all in the ability of the director and others involved in the production.

I am not convinced that there is a decent HD camera at the prosumer level yet. Yes, there are plenty of offerings these days, but none that stand out, IMHO. I still think there is an issue of maturity for the products and market, and they just haven't gotten to a point where they are decent for non-professional budgets.


MD

[Carl Spackler]

I am not convinced that there is a decent HD camera at the prosumer level yet. Yes, there are plenty of offerings these days, but none that stand out, IMHO. I still think there is an issue of maturity for the products and market, and they just haven't gotten to a point where they are decent for non-professional budgets.


MD

Perhaps off topic, but meet Stephen Dempsey (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=90390). Check out what he's been doing with his A1. The "daybreak" clip is noodle bakingly good. It's all about knowing your camera.

[GoGoSamGo]

I started off with and still use the Panisonic AG-DVX100, which IN my opinion is the best MiniDv Camcorder avaliable.

Take a look for yourself http://www.amazon.com/PANASONIC-AG-DVX100-Professional-MiniDV-Camcorder/dp/B000075AEV

[bigbossbmb]

I started off with and still use the Panisonic AG-DVX100, which IN my opinion is the best MiniDv Camcorder avaliable.


I would agree because I have the DVX100B:D

But the DVX is out of the OP's budget. Although I would highly recommending looking at the marketplace forum of DVXuser.com. You can get some really good deals on there.


The "little brother" of the DVX100 is the DVC30, which is in the price range the OP was looking for. It is comparable to the GL2. These two are the entry level learn how to make films camera. We used GL1's in the beginning film class here in Santa Cruz.

[MacInMich]

Thanks to everyone who has posted opinions and information. The comments about the person behind the camera having more to do with the final presentation than the camera itself were thought-provoking and there has been a lot of good technical advice. I think I'm going to look for a lower-end camera for now, put aside some of the money I had earmarked for this and use it to help him with the cost of something more professional (DVX, etc) in a year or two if he shows a commitment to (and aptitude for) pursuing this. From what's been posted, it appears that HD isn't necessarily an advantage ... and that a camera with as many manual controls / video effects as I can get for a reasonable price is the way to go. Any quick suggestions on models?

Thanks again, everyone. I'll tell my son about this site ... but not until after I get the camera.

[bigbossbmb]

also tell him about DVXuser.com (even if he doesn't get a DVX). It is a fantastic resource for beginning filmmakers. There are forums for Sound, Lighting, Directing, Writing, as well as technical aspects of the DVX100 and HVX200.

That site has helped me a great deal over the last 8 months or so.

[LethalWolfe]

also tell him about DVXuser.com (even if he doesn't get a DVX). It is a fantastic resource for beginning filmmakers. There are forums for Sound, Lighting, Directing, Writing, as well as technical aspects of the DVX100 and HVX200.

That site has helped me a great deal over the last 8 months or so.

Other good places to glean information (but not necessarily to ask newb-type questions) are hdforindies.com (http://www.hdforindies.com), dvinfo.net (http://www.dvinfo.net), and creativecow.net (http://www.creativecow.net). The book The DV Rebel's Guide: An All-Digital Approach to Making Killer Action Movies on the Cheap (http://www.amazon.com/DV-Rebels-Guide-All-Digital-Approach/dp/0321413644) is also a great resource for learning practical ways to make your no-budget picture not look like a no-budget picture.


Lethal

[bigbossbmb]

The DV Rebel's Guide: An All-Digital Approach to Making Killer Action Movies on the Cheap (http://www.amazon.com/DV-Rebels-Guide-All-Digital-Approach/dp/0321413644)

I read this book in January... priceless.

Stu Mashwitz (the author) also has an interesting blog (http://prolost.blogspot.com/) too.

[MacDann]

If you're a Panasonic 3CCD user, or wanna-be, there is a fantastic forum for all Panasonic 3CCD cameras at:

http://www.pana3ccduser.com/index.php

You name it, it's there. A good general resource for lots of related film-making topics, like sound, lighting, camera handling, etc.

MD

[solvs]

I bought a refurbished Canon GL2 from B&H Photo Video (http://bhphotovideo.com/) (a highly respected reseller) with a ton of accessories for around $2000. Got the extended Impact battery, DM-50 mic, instructional DVD, tripod (kinda cheapy, but it's ok), extended 2 year warranty, and a couple of tapes. Bought the bag from Amazon, and I already had a memory card. The HV20 was announced awhile later, and it looks nice, but it still isn't out yet. I'm pretty happy with my GL2 for now though.

[bigbossbmb]

Panasonic just dropped the retail price of the DVX100B by $1,000! (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=94944&catGroupId=14571&surfModel=AG-DVX100B)

Now the street price will be in the $2,500-2,700 range. Although this is still over your budget, it may open up the possibility of a used DVX100A as they will drop below the $2k mark.

There aren't a whole lot of MAJOR changes between the 100A and 100B. Some nice things, but nothing I would consider crucial for a beginner. I would take a used 100A over a Canon GL2 any day.

[TheDance511]

Panasonic just dropped the retail price of the DVX100B by $1,000! (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=94944&catGroupId=14571&surfModel=AG-DVX100B)

Now the street price will be in the $2,500-2,700 range. Although this is still over your budget, it may open up the possibility of a used DVX100A as they will drop below the $2k mark.

There aren't a whole lot of MAJOR changes between the 100A and 100B. Some nice things, but nothing I would consider crucial for a beginner. I would take a used 100A over a Canon GL2 any day.

What kind of quality might one expect from the DVX100B ??? I am curious to know.

[islandman]

Great thread. I agree that the HV20 is a great camcorder for the money, even though the OP seems to have decided.

[bigbossbmb]

What kind of quality might one expect from the DVX100B ??? I am curious to know.


Well this documentary (http://www.iraqinfragments.com/) was shot on a DVX100B and nominated for an academy award for best documentary this year. There is also Murderball, the TV shows "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" on FX and "Arrested Development" (before it went HD) on Fox, and a whole bunch of other things listed here (http://imdb.com/SearchTechnical?CAM:Panasonic%20AG-DVX100).

On DVXuser (www.dvxuser.com) there is a forum for posting footage you can check out. You can get just about any look you want with the right lighting/cinematography skills and a DVX.

[LethalWolfe]

What kind of quality might one expect from the DVX100B ??? I am curious to know.

The quality is sufficient enough that a skilled cinematographer can use the DVX100 and win the Best Cinematography award at Sundance ("November" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368089/), 2004).


Lethal

[killr_b]

The quality is sufficient enough that a skilled cinematographer can use the DVX100 and win the Best Cinematography award at Sundance ("November" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368089/), 2004).


Lethal

^Awesome. :cool:

I like the DVX100B a lot as well. I've done work in many situations and my only gripe is that they don't perform in low light as well as other cameras similar to it. But everything else about them is so tight that I can't help but stick to 'em. :)

[Salasm]

A crappy movie shot on HD is still a crappy movie. A good movie on SD is still a good movie.

a crappy movie shot on sd is even crappier. a good movie shot on hd is still a good movie. at least its on hd.

ur point?

op, get a canon hv20

[LethalWolfe]

a crappy movie shot on sd is even crappier. a good movie shot on hd is still a good movie. at least its on hd.

ur point?

op, get a canon hv20

I think my point is pretty obvious. A crappy movie is still a crappy movie whether it's on SD, HD or film and a good movie is still a good movie whether it's shot on SD, HD or film. Is "Charlie's Angles: Full Throttle" a better movie than "Citizen Kane" because CA:FT was shot on superior film stock, in color, and used modern special effects and CG? I don't think so.

Saying "I made my movie in HD" is nothing special anymore because HD cameras are so inexpensive and accessible. It's like saying "I know photoshop" or "I know final cut" or even "I know Avid". In '98 a friend of mine graduated college and got his first job in LA partly because he knew Avid (at the time our college was one of the few in the country that let students use Avid). Fast forward to '01 when I graduated and Avid had become less expensive so more schools had them and having Avid experience didn't really open any doors for me because it had become a much more common thing since my friend graduated.

The democratization of movie making is a double edged sword. It's great that pretty much anyone can make a movie, but because pretty much anyone can, anyone is... so even though it's easier to make a movie it's much harder to get anyone to notice your film and to stand out from the pack.

Now, if you say your student film was shot on a Red One, Varicam or F950 and finished on a Da Vinci then it'll be a bit easier to get some attention because you showed some resourcefulness to get your movie made on equipment that was beyond your means financially (unless you are rich of course). But that still means you could lose out to a movie like ""Tarnation" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0390538/) which was culled together from "...snapshots, Super-8, answering machine messages, video diaries, early short films..." and edited on iMovie.

As someone who used to shoot professionally I'd rather have an SD camera w/as much manual control my budget allows than an HD point-n-shoot camera. But, that's personal preference coming from a shooter so of course I'd want as much control over my camera as I can get.


Lethal

[wizwaz3]

I figured here would be a good enough place to ask. I'm in a bind. I don't know which camera I should get. I've narrowed it down to four. The Canon XL2, Canon GL2, Canon XH-A1 or the Panasonic AG-DVX100B. I'm lost because I know the XL2 is such a great camera that Professional TV studios use it, but the options and reviews on the others are so good. Anyone know what I should do? :(

[bigbossbmb]

The differences between the DVX and XL2 are mostly personal preference. There is a very good comparison of the two here (http://dvxuser.com/articles/shoot3/). It uses the DVX100A for the comparison, but there are only minor differences between the A and B (with only one or two effecting picture).


The XH-A1 is a very good camera as well (with a very enticing price tag). I think a lot of it comes down to whether you need/want HD and what kind of projects you are doing.

[wizwaz3]

I've done some research. While I like the GL2, the CCDs aren't in 16:9, so it's out of the equation. I like the XH-A1 because of it's small form factor, but I'm not sure what I need. I'm going to school to be a film editor, but I want to have my own camera and filming experience. I would like to have something that is great for an amateur, but I can grow with as I become a professional. So, whatever fits the bill best.

[bigbossbmb]

I've done some research. While I like the GL2, the CCDs aren't in 16:9, so it's out of the equation. I like the XH-A1 because of it's small form factor, but I'm not sure what I need. I'm going to school to be a film editor, but I want to have my own camera and filming experience. I would like to have something that is great for an amateur, but I can grow with as I become a professional. So, whatever fits the bill best.


I'm concentrating on editing and post-production here at UC Santa Cruz. I went with the DVX for the better low-light, actual 24p, better color, and the form factor (i hate the XL2's body). Also, it was important to not blow all of my money on just the camera. I bought a good tripod as well (Bogen/Manfrotto 503/351mvb2 combo). Sure I could've put that $500 into a trying to get a better camera, but shakey HD doesn't look as good as smooth SD.

[wizwaz3]

So, between the DVX or XL2 & the XH-A1, what would be best for me? Which is great for a beginner, but expandable for my future?

[zioxide]

So, between the DVX or XL2 & the XH-A1, what would be best for me? Which is great for a beginner, but expandable for my future?

High definition is the future, so if you want to base your decision on that, the XH-A1 is the way to go.

If I had the money to buy a real camera right now, I'd probably buy the XH-A1. I used GL1 and GL2s in school and I really liked them, so I'd probably go with the XH-A1.

[CmdrLaForge]

I started off with and still use the Panisonic AG-DVX100, which IN my opinion is the best MiniDv Camcorder avaliable.


I second that. Its a great camera. If you want HD go with the HVX200 if you can afford it but I wouldn't recommand for a film student the Canon HV20. Even so it is a great camera if you really want to make a movie.

Another very interesting camera is the XH-A1.

Check out http://www.freshdv.com/ for more info on the HV20 and

http://www.hdforindies.com/ for more info in cameras in general.

[bigbossbmb]

With the recent price drop of the DVX, I'd say it is your best option. You'll get a great camera with money left over for a good tripod, tapes, and some hard drives for storage. After a little while, you might start thinking about audio and lighting.

[poppe]

With the recent price drop of the DVX, I'd say it is your best option. You'll get a great camera with money left over for a good tripod, tapes, and some hard drives for storage. After a little while, you might start thinking about audio and lighting.

They did a Price drop? For how much?

[wizwaz3]

I really want the cameras CCDs to be 16:9. I love Panasonic, I use their GS-500s at school quite often, but I need my CCDs to be 16:9. I plan to shoot in widescreen as much as humanly possible.

[Carl Spackler]

So, between the DVX or XL2 & the XH-A1, what would be best for me? Which is great for a beginner, but expandable for my future?

You've chosen three cameras that are very good and very equal in what you can do with them. If you take the time to learn any one of these, drill down into the custom presets and you know how to light a scene, you're going to knock some socks off. Again, I'll point to Stephen Dempsey (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=90390), who shot this footage with the A1. If it were down to me and it's a tossup, I'd go A1 all the way. Three very equal cameras in quality, but I'd give the A1 one up for HD. Granted, it's HDV, but you can always capture as DVCProHD to eliminate GOP issues if you're going out of FCP.

[wizwaz3]

I think I would be sold on the XH-A1 if it shot in progressive. *So many battles are raging in my mind*:rolleyes:

[zioxide]

I think I would be sold on the XH-A1 if it shot in progressive. *So many battles are raging in my mind*:rolleyes:

It technically doesn't shoot progressive, but it does shoot in 30f and 24f modes.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=3454389&postcount=7

[bigbossbmb]

They did a Price drop? For how much?

it dropped $1k...now it is like $2600-2700 on BH... maybe lower on other places.


wizwaz3: the dvx's squeeze mode is very good. not native 16:9 but close. there is also a 16:9 adapter to give the DVX native 16:9...but I might sell mine cuz I think squeeze is pretty good.

[marioman38]

I've owned both Sony and Canon, and I am more impressed with Sony. I think the Carl Zeiss lenses deliver better quality, and the displays in the cameras are better quality.
As have I, and I couldn't agree more...

Check out the Sony VX2100

Its a great brand, very durable, and has excellent Low Light (1lux)

it's ~2200 at BH

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/10992193/Sony_DCR_VX2100_MiniDV_Camcorder.jpg

[thenick512]

I've owned several cameras. First a panny 3ccd pv-gs70, then a sony vx2000, a panny pv-gs500, and a canon hv-10. Out of all the cameras I loved the vx2000 the best but it didn't fit my needs in it was to large. The hv10 was beautiful but I couldn't stand the way you held it, the fact that it didn't have a manual focus ring and didn't have an accessory shoe. I'm using a panasonic pv-gs500 and I love it. Its sd, has decent sized chip sizes, has a manual focus ring, hot shoe, I made a handle for it, and I love the size. It spends alot of time in a tripod but just as much time in my hands, so it being comfortable to hold and me being able to keep it steady is huge in my opinion. Its really all preference and realizing what you want out of a camera. If the vx2000 was a bit smaller I would be all over it. good luck with your decision