Something is Coming...

[MacRumors]

A few more notes:

- MacBidouille's readers (http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-06-14#5812) had posted on their forums regarding new boxes from Apple that had arrived at a FNAC -- a computer/department story in France with instructions not to open before Monday, June 23rd. The post claims two box sizes... one which is speculated to be laptop sized, while the other is described as much larger. Speculation and discussion are ongoing in this Page 2 thread (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030614190217.shtml).

Interestingly enough, Apple Stores are also receiving palettes this week which are not to be opened until Monday afternoon (June 23rd). These reports indicate that at least some new products with immediate availability after WWDC's opening day. It is unknown if there is the same sizes as described by MacBidouille's readers.

- Mac-TV.de (http://www.mac-tv.de) claims that Apple Germany has stated that there will be no web-stream of the event.

- The invitation (jpg) for the German Apple Broadcast event hypes WWDC further:


Discover the Future with the Apple

Apple Germany invites you to a breathtaking event in the heart of Europe.

Watch the keynote of Steve Jobs from the WWDC in San Francisco via satellite.

For Audio, Video, Publishing and Mediaprofessionals will it be an unforgettable event. News will await you, which will top all your previous expectations on speed.

Be ready for a new age of computing on 23.06.2003 starting 6 pm.

(Please note that this is an invite-only event.)

[Mudbug]

holy cwap!!!! Can I have one now?

[jdstoddard]

True...970 here I come.

[barkmonster]

What's in the big boxes ?

I'd laugh if it was just new iMacs or something after all the 970 hype.

Of course that would be an insane laugh, I'd be crying with disappointment really.

[blueBomber]

it's probably a g4 with dual-ddr, for even faster performance:rolleyes:

[Flowbee]

One word: Webcams!

...lots and lots of webcams...:(

[jimthorn]

My money's on new 15" PowerBooks (G4, not G5). And who says the big boxes only hold one item? Maybe they're filled with lots of smaller boxes, like a new Digital Lifestyle Device (camera, anyone?).

[Postal]

What's interesting is that this immediately lends support to MacBidouille's arguments... assuming that they all come from the same general source (not necessarily the same person).

[Dont Hurt Me]

I would expect xserves,&powermacs but it could be the 15" book & powermacs. Really you arent going to be showing off a 64 bit system on a 32 bit machine are you???Apple has needed this for the past year lets hope its good.

[dickrichie]

Does anyone have any idea why Germany iis such a big deal? the only thing I can think and trust me this is a HUGE guess is maybe Porsche helped with the design. They have done industrial deisgn before and even worked with apple on the Newton eMate. Just a thought or should I say a shot in teh dark. the very very dark.

[DreaminDirector]

Man, this WWDC si getting so hyped. I really hope it isnt going to be a let down. I'm getting that feeling again like when you were a kid and you knew the next day you were going to disneyland and you were to anxious to go to sleep.

Come on Apple, break the status quo again!

[kylos]

Originally posted by dickrichie
Does anyone have any idea why Germany iis such a big deal? the only thing I can think and trust me this is a HUGE guess is maybe Porsche helped with the design. They have done industrial deisgn before and even worked with apple on the Newton eMate. Just a thought or should I say a shot in teh dark. the very very dark.

Or even better, maybe your 911 will run on OS X. That would be sweet. Show BMW a thing or two.

[evoluzione]

Apple, please stop spending my money before I earn it!

looks like i better hustle up on any outstanding invoices so I can be first in line at Apple SoHo after the streaming of the keynote.......

[form]

Don't get your hopes up; we all know Apple's history of having nothing significant in such boxes.

[reyesmac]

I hope Apple pulls out all the stops for this event. I hope they don't hold anything back with the new G5's or cripple them in any way. If they can count on IBM for faster and faster chips these systems will be outdated in a year or two anyway.

[pkradd]

CNBC streamed the recent Apple event that introed new iPods and iTMS. No reason to believe they won't do the same for WWDC, even if Apple only streams to stores as they did recently. Although one should note that a Quicktime stream was up prior to the recent event in Cupertino but went down just when the event started!

[DoJo]

I am so happy! After following Mac related rumors for 4 years I am finally in the position to buy a new computer.

Even better, after telling my wife I was considering an eMac she suggested getting a higher-end Mac so It could retain its usefulness longer.

Now if Apple would not raise the prices on the pro towers after the 970 upgrade I would be even happier.

[BaghdadBob]

:eek: *boing*

I don't care about the boxes, the hype is starting to get me all hot and bothered...am I the only one who thinks this level of hype can only be leading to some really good stuff?

I don't know about exceeding all my past expectations though. It would need some anatomy so I could make love to it if it will "exceed all my past expectations". Seriously, I would have to make passionate love to it. I don't think it'll be quite that good.

Better practice my continuously swirling digit motions -- for the new mouse, of course...

[pyrotoaster]

Something big is coming... :D

As for the German Stream, while I'm sure the event referred to is real, I'm not so sure about the keynote not being streamed. I read the actual translation at this thread:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29542
Originally posted by Veldek
Quick Translation:
Apple Germany told us that Apple will for 99% not offer an own live-stream with Quicktime. They don't even think about changing this plan. There will only be a satellite stream to two meetings in Berlin and Tokyo, where special guests and some journalists are invited. No on-line service (e.g. MSN) has
permission for streaming the key note.
According to this, not even Apple Retail Stores will show the keynote, and many Apple Retail Stores have already confirmed that they will be showing the keynote.

[blueBomber]

I'm trying not to get my hopes up, but you can't put something like "Be ready for a new computer era on 23.06.2003, starting at 6:00 PM in the ******." for a simple speedbump or even the 15" alPB. This implies something really inovative, perhaps even mindblowing...

And it was mentioned (jokingly) that maybe Porche made a case for Apple. Hey, I know more than few car-shop guys who mod out pc cases for people. Maybe Steve is trying to show them all up by hiring the best:D

[rjwill246]

It is going to be very interesting to see if we hear a peep from this forum's very vocal detractors of all these recent rumours- after the WWDC. Even Apple is now claiming something big is going to happen ( for the Berlin invitees) and they generally only hint at "the spectacular" rather than being so direct. I would venture that the 970s will be coming sooner rather than later- and it is hoped that by Christmas time Apple buyers and Windows switchers will be going nuts trying to figure out just where to plunk down that hard earned cash.

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by DoJo
I am so happy! After following Mac related rumors for 4 years I am finally in the position to buy a new computer.

Even better, after telling my wife I was considering an eMac she suggested getting a higher-end Mac so It could retain its usefulness longer.

Now if Apple would not raise the prices on the pro towers after the 970 upgrade I would be even happier.
While a new processor might sound like an opportunity for Apple to jack up the price, from what I've seen (MacWhispers report about processor prices comes to mind) there's a very good possibility that prices won't go up.

I'm still wonder what's up with the 12" Powerbook, though...

[mikeyredk]

do you know whats going to happen someone in one of those meeting is going to tell a bunch of other people then they tell the rest of the world

yea everyone is going to have to sign an nda but it will still leak

[agreenster]

Originally posted by blueBomber
I'm trying not to get my hopes up, but you can't put something like "Be ready for a new computer era on 23.06.2003, starting at 6:00 PM in the ******." for a simple speedbump or even the 15" alPB. This implies something really inovative, perhaps even mindblowing...


Yes, but did you ever stop to think that this may be two different things we are talking about here? Sure, the 970 will probably be revealed, and possibly demo-ed, which is the 'mind blowing event.'

But no product with a 970 in it will be available till probably Christmas or MWSF time. The boxes arriving at the stores are probably just 15-inch Powerbooks with G4's in them. This announcement will also take place around the 23rd, but will be a smaller announcement.

[Lokii]

MacCentral is reporting that WWDC will "introduce developers to the next major version of Mac OS X server." (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/06/16/wwdc/)

*sigh* What does that mean for PowerMacs?

[zoozx]

Originally posted by Kyle?
Or even better, maybe your 911 will run on OS X. That would be sweet. Show BMW a thing or two.

Or better yet:
Ever 970 comes with a 911.

[agreenster]

It means the 970's will definitely make their way into the desktop line eventually...just be patient. A 64 bit chip's native home is in a server, so its only logical thats where it will start in the Apple product line.

[evilfunkgenius]

It is going to be an announcement about OS X 10.3 and new server hardware running 64 bit 970s (hence "a new era in computing"). It won't be a public keynote either. Just think how much the developers are paying to go to this, for the privlidge of seeing it first. And why would they release consumer products at a developer event?

Therefore, if the 15.4" PB is released on the same day, it will be independant of the announcement and just posted as an upgrade to the website. No tower upgrade until Macworld NY.

Just my guesses. :o

[Tim Flynn]

Originally posted by blueBomber
it's probably a g4 with dual-ddr, for even faster performance:rolleyes:

Maybe even a two button mouse:D

[Sayer]

Some say that the boxes being sent to Apple stores contain various promotional items and displays for, well, something, not necessarily new products themselves.

And for anyone wondering why Apple is showing the Keynote in Apple stores and not live on the web simulataneously (that we know of) is to get people *into the stores.*

All those stores need to start making some money for Apple or pretty soon all that there will be of Apple Stores are some free-standing carts in the open areas of the mall showing iPods and some boxed Apple software.

[Lokii]

but does this mean that no Powe Macs will be immediately available? Within 2 months?

At the very least will Apple announce a release date for 970 based PowerMacs?

[nagromme]

Remember, the G4 iMac was a new era too--hyped on Apple.com, which WWDC has not been. I actually wasn't disappointed by that being the bombshell, but many were. So.. Apple DOES overhype sometimes. Maybe that works on the media, so they're willing to disappoint a few rumor fans?

My predictions:

* New G4 Al PowerBooks:
12" 1 GHz
15" 1 and 1.2 (or 1.4) GHz (the small box)
17" 1.2 (or 1.4) to follow not long after (maybe with price drop)
I bet the 12" and 15" will stay at close to the current reduced prices even though faster. No new iBooks--yet.

* New 23" (or 30") adjustable Cinema Display, hinting at future design revisions for the other sizes (the big box)

* Great Panther demo, release in Sept.--this will be THE big part of the show

* 970 sneak preview and bake-off, towers shipping in late Sept. with Panther and new mice/keyboards--this will be the second-biggest part, not THAT much faster than G4s but will get faster and faster over the next 6 months (Xserve 970s to ship soon after the towers, no PowerBook 970s this year but hopefully early next)

* Quietly speed-boosted and price-dropped G4 towers to tide over people who need SOMETHING before then. They might throw in the new mice/keyboards with these, and maybe a free Panther coupon--these would not even get MENTION at WWDC

* Maybe one or two little software apps--like a new iChat for instance

* Maybe some minor hardware/accessories introduced like a dock with wireless remote for iPod, or a web camera

All together not too shabby, but not the revolution we might hope for. But be patient!

Pure guesswork though.

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by Lokii
but does this mean that no Powe Macs will be immediately available? Within 2 months?

At the very least will Apple announce a release date for 970 based PowerMacs?
Powermac 970s will probably be available within 2 months. Most likely some time in July (early, mid, or late).

[zoozx]

Here are the facts:

1. Apple is showing new servers Monday with OSX Panther, they just announced it.

2. The Keynote is not available to the public through a stream, at least that has not been announced yet.

It's very doubtful that A MAJOR upgrade to desktops ( 970 ) will be shown or announced if there is not a public stream of the keynote. Have you ever seen apple announce a product this big without a public showing, They want to sell the things Remember. Answer NO.
It's simple,
If the keynote is not live there will be No 970 debut on Monday!

[Blackcat]

Originally posted by agreenster
It means the 970's will definitely make their way into the desktop line eventually...just be patient. A 64 bit chip's native home is in a server, so its only logical thats where it will start in the Apple product line.

It's not logical to use an unproven cpu in servers, especially if you are a new server vendor.

Plus PowerMac sales will stop dead.

[AhmedFaisal]

... or he is going to have the label "biggest BS-Talker of the Community" tatooed to his forehead and website for life!
Cheers,

Ahmed

[Dale Sorel]

Whatever's in the box, I just hope it's snappier®

[spiff]

the correct translation of the german text is:
...that will exceed all your past expectations CONCERNING SPEED.

this is (to me) a clear indication, that there will be a pretty big performance upgrade.

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
I'm still wonder what's up with the 12" Powerbook, though...

So am I, 1GHz is pretty much guaranteed, but L3 cache? Graphics chip and memory? 256MB on board? Faster bootup? All these questions!

AppleMatt

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

This will be an unforgettable event for audio, video, publishing, and media professionals. Expect some news that will exceed all your past expecations.
Quark is shipping!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[jholzner]

Originally posted by zoozx
Here are the facts:

1. Apple is showing new servers Monday with OSX Panther, they just announced it.

2. The Keynote is not available to the public through a stream, at least that has not been announced yet.

It's very doubtful that A MAJOR upgrade to desktops ( 970 ) will be shown or announced if there is not a public stream of the keynote. Have you ever seen apple announce a product this big without a public showing, They want to sell the things Remember. Answer NO.
It's simple,
If the keynote is not live there will be No 970 debut on Monday!

The Launch of the iTMS wasn't streamed live I don't think. They posted a movie of it later though. So, they could releaes new products without streaming it live.

[DoJo]

Perhaps there is no live stream because the 970s are still under development and they don't want to risk a system crash during a demo with a million people watching.

[iJon]

well since apple stores are getting them i believe this story more now. boy this is gonna be excited, im treating this like a macworld. and the best thing is that even though it isnt a macworld, one will come up in the following month with even more stuff to get excited about.

iJon

[MacMarino]

The iTMS broadcast was streamed but the quality wasnt the best as it was being hit by all those who knew about it. It came from a CNBC website i believe. So it might happen again this time round too.
It's going to be great to wake up the next morming and find all new products up on Apples website:D

[GulGnu]

Originally posted by zoozx
Here are the facts:
Have you ever seen apple announce a product this big without a public showing...?

Erm, the music store?

Regards / GulGnu

-Stabil som fan!

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by MacMarino
It's going to be great to wake up the next morming and find all new products up on Apples website:D

that might not happen if stuff isn't shipping...

i guess there'd at least be announcements, but maybe not... depends if they give a time period for release and all that.

will certainly be exciting though.

[Nermal]

Originally posted by zoozx
It's very doubtful that A MAJOR upgrade to desktops ( 970 ) will be shown or announced if there is not a public stream of the keynote. Have you ever seen apple announce a product this big without a public showing

Apparently the original iMac was announced at WWDC. No idea whether there was a public stream, probably wasn't since most people didn't have broadband back then.

[dhaveconfig]

Originally posted by Lokii
MacCentral is reporting that WWDC will "introduce developers to the next major version of Mac OS X server." (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/06/16/wwdc/)

*sigh* What does that mean for PowerMacs?


Not much. OS X and OS X Server development and releases go pretty much hand in hand. OS X Server is an install on top of OS X that replaces some things, but the core of the operating systems are pretty much the same.

Last year all the WWDC attendees got beta copies of OS X Server and OS X. This year won't be any different.

[edit: I don't expect this year to be any different...]

[zoozx]

Seems like a no brainer considering Jobs huge ego. They guy wants a public platform when he shows off his new 970 baby and without a stream it ain't going to happen. ITMS is not hardware.

[sandsl]

Apple doesn't need some other company to design its products, Jonathan Ives and the Apple design team are brilliant.

[iBot]

Just got back from the Apple Store at The Grove mall in L.A. I poked my head into the stockroom (in the back, just around the corner from the Apple-design public restroom) and saw an employee loading dozens of unopened boxes of 12-inch Powerbooks onto a dolly-like cart (palette with wheels). I saw him take his load up to the second floor of the store, via the service elevator, and into another back room beside the upstairs theater.

IMHO it looked like he was making space in the main stockroom, which at this point is still packed to the gills with current products -- non-adjustable flat-panel displays, G4 PowerMacs, Powerbooks, etc. (I peeked into the stockroom and there were no mysterious unmarked boxes, and there were obviously none labeled "Do Not Open: G5 PowerPC 970 Ultra-Bling-Bling PowerMac Extreme." Unfortunately, but not surprisingly.

Before he took the Powerbooks upstairs, I asked the stockroom guy if they were expecting shipments of anything new. He not surprisingly disavowed all knowledge of any such thing, and didn't break his poker face when I asked about G5s.

My best guess is that whatever the new products are, they'll be delivered after store hours some time this week, so that meddling amateur spies such as myself will not have gawker access.

[tjwett]

When is the last time Apple didn't let us down? I'm guessing we'll see Panther, Panther Server, New XServe, and some thing tiny like the Pal thing or a web cam.
a bummer, overall. I think.

[tazznb]

Originally posted by Macrumors
A few more notes:

- MacBidouille's readers (http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-06-14#5812) had posted on their forums regarding new boxes from Apple that had arrived at a FNAC -- a computer/department story in France with instructions not to open before Monday, June 23rd. The post claims two box sizes... one which is speculated to be laptop sized, while the other is described as much larger.



The one that's laptop sized could also be the xServe server, too.

Hint: I was at Steves' brother's uncle's son's (well I could've just said his cousin's, but that'd be too easy) house the other week, and he said that Apple will be supporting graphic cards that will be in excess of 256Mb video ram.

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by taznb
The one that's laptop sized could also be the xServe server, too.
No. If that report is even accurate, it isn't a box of Xserves.

I mean, how many Apple Stores actually have boxes of Xserves in the back room?

[cc bcc]

Originally posted by tazznb
The one that's laptop sized could also be the xServe server, too.

Hint: I was at Steves' brother's uncle's son's (well I could've just said his cousin's, but that'd be too easy) house the other week, and he said that Apple will be supporting graphic cards that will be in excess of 256Mb video ram.

An xServe is thin, but very deep. These boxes would be long. And what pyrocaster said, they only sell a couple of thousand a year, no need to have so many in 1 store.

[BernieC]

One of the boxes that Apple stores have been getting were t-shirts for the Apple Camp (http://www.apple.com/retail/camp/) initiative.

Even still, I'm very excited to see what the 23rd is going to bring. I've asked for the day off :-D

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by cc bcc
An xServe is thin, but very deep. These boxes would be long. And what pyrocaster said, they only sell a couple of thousand a year, no need to have so many in 1 store.

exactly, and from what i heard... xserves are actually the biggest box of apple products (maybe one product was bigger, i forget). but certainly not laptop size

[iJon]

Originally posted by cc bcc
An xServe is thin, but very deep. These boxes would be long. And what pyrocaster said, they only sell a couple of thousand a year, no need to have so many in 1 store.
yeah xserves are ungodly huge, you owuld be able to notice them.

iJon

[JOHNGAETANO]

Based on the screen shots of the small screen device Apple put on their web site the day iSync 1.1 was released, I am betting on the PAL device. Why else would Apple quickly remove the pics???

[dhaveconfig]

The XServe boxes are monstrous...

They only just fit through a doorway in width, they're a good 10cm longer than full rack depth, and they're probably around 30cm high.

[Romanesq]

:p I've been watching these developments over the last few weeks with great interest like so many others.

Here's one view: I think people have forgotten the boldness of Apple under the reigns of one of its founders. This is going to be one of those "old" times again.

Jobs knows one thing. It's get off the stick time. Launching the on line tunes service has been masterful and this without even 95% of the computer users out there accessible yet. Already Apple has generated the buzz and clear ownership over a medium others have been frothing at the mouth for.

Now it clearly takes time to move an organization of this size forward in a global consumer marketplace but I believe that time has arrived.

In my mind, only half of this equation may be incorrect.

The 970s are in production. Definitely in new boxes with beefed up versions to follow shortly.

Hopefully, powerbooks are getting the chip and the 15 incher is to also be followed by a tbd date for the 12 and 17 incher. (Depending on current stocks, Apple may sit on the offical announced date. )

Logical? Maybe. But that's my gut.

The big, bad bold Apple Computer is back. And about to kick much ass.

[e-coli]

Originally posted by JOHNGAETANO
Based on the screen shots of the small screen device Apple put on their web site the day iSync 1.1 was released, I am betting on the PAL device. Why else would Apple quickly remove the pics???

What screen shots on Apple's site?

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by JOHNGAETANO
Based on the screen shots of the small screen device Apple put on their web site the day iSync 1.1 was released, I am betting on the PAL device. Why else would Apple quickly remove the pics???
Do you mean the Palm Zire?

[e-coli]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
Do you mean the Palm Zire?

no, this image. very intriguing.

[iJon]

Originally posted by e-coli
no, this image. very intriguing.
thats pretty interesting, any more info on what exactly this is?

iJon

[e-coli]

I can't, for the life of me, figure out what it is. but whatever it is, it has a "logout" option. I would say that it's just some new type of soon-to-be-announced .mac functionality, but I dunno.

[GulGnu]

"Seems like a no brainer considering Jobs huge ego. They guy wants a public platform when he shows off his new 970 baby and without a stream it ain't going to happen. ITMS is not hardware."

It shouldnt matter that much it wasn't hardware - it was one of Apple's biggest deals in a lomg time - with the added flair of showbiz.

[cliffm]

Maybe its new store displays!!

There were a few "strange boxes" at apple stores right before MWSF that turned out to be product displays.

[Lokii]

Seems to me that the image is part of iSync. It looks like a way to keep bookmarks up to date on different Macs.

Just my 2cents

[iJon]

Originally posted by cliffm
Maybe its new store displays!!

There were a few "strange boxes" at apple stores right before MWSF that turned out to be product displays.
but with every product display there has to be a product. guess we will have to wait till monday.

iJon

[JoeRadar]

Originally posted by Blackcat
It's not logical to use an unproven cpu in servers, especially if you are a new server vendor.

Although, it makes sense for a compute engine (e.g., rendering farms). I wonder if/when Pixar will go with Xserves?

[cubist]

X11 will be fully integrated, so Unix apps can be ported unchanged. OpenOffice, FreeCiv and GIMP will run right next to Safari and iTunes.

Classic will be better integrated, so Classic apps will run and look just like Aqua apps.

Something like AtEase will become available for classroom users.

The new version of ProjectBuilder/Cocoa/OpenStep will allow a Mac to be used to develop applications that run on Mac or Windows.

Why, Panther will include over 129 improved features...

[nagromme]

Unless I missed something, Apple has not announced new servers for WWDC. They've annouced that OS X Server 10.3 will be previewed as well as client 10.3. Panther Server in other words--just software, and not a big surprise.

[kansaigaijin]

not streamed on-line because they want people in the stores with credit card in hand for new 970 Powerbooks AND PowerMacs, as MacB had them going into production at least a month ago, that would indicate why the conference was delayed, so that the machines were ready, the Panther demo was a decoy.

[iJon]

Originally posted by nagromme
Unless I missed something, Apple has not announced new servers for WWDC. They've annouced that OS X Server 10.3 will be previewed as well as client 10.3. Panther Server in other words--just software, and not a big surprise. we all know what they are suppose to introduce, we are all wondering what they havent told us that will be announced.

iJon

[bretm]

OS X Server is a piece of software. Not a piece of hardware. It's the OS that runs on a server. Only seems normal that it would be co developed with panther.

[chuckiej]

I'm very happy to see the traffic on this thread and am looking forward to something big from WWDC (more than Panther)

I wanted to clear up a misconception though. Mac OS X Server is not hardware. It is the server version of Mac OS X. Apple announcing a new version of the software does not necessarily mean new xServes are forthcoming. Hopefully they are. Both the xServes and the Power Macs need new processors (the 970) and we should get them soon.

Also, I don't believe xServes are a major sale item at the Apple Store. You may be able to walk out with one but I doubt that happens very often. In other words, the infamous boxes probably don't have xServes in them. ;)

OK carry on!

[JoeRadar]

Originally posted by Lokii
At the very least will Apple announce a release date for 970 based PowerMacs?

Given Apple's hype for Monday (even ignoring the chatter on the rumor sites), I would not be surprised if Apple did a full 970 launch for the pro line: PowerBook, PowerMac, Xserve (and Xserve RAID).

If IBM and supporting factories can get the yields up, supporting G3, G4, and 970 would be a pain and confuse the consumer. Staying with one supplier (IBM) and dumping the G4 as fast as possible makes some sense.

Apple will then tout Panther and 970 together - the first consumer 64-bit package. Cocoa, carbon, UNIX/Xwindows, Java built-in and ready to go. Obligatory demos will be given.

No one will doubt that Apple has the (1) best hardware, (2) best operating system, (3) best user environment/experience, (4) best complete consumer package (iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes,...), (5) best package for creative professionals, (6) best development environment, (7) best solution for scientific research, (8) best visionaries, (9) best trend-line for improvement, and (10) and best solution for the foreseeable future.

[Macmaniac]

Just in case I'm installing extra firewalls on my computer in case the 970's don't come out so I don't burn anyone with anger or have angry Apple hatemail fill Macrumors.

If Apple releases some wimpy speed bumped 1.6ghz G4, they will pi## alot of people off.

Keep all your fingers crossed:eek: :eek:

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by JoeRadar
the first consumer 64-bit package


This is really funny - "64-bit consumer"!


What "consumer" needs 4 GiB or more of RAM? 64-bits isn't any faster or better than 32-bits, unless you've hit the "31-bit" wall of 2GiB of memory.


I can see the specs - "the first 64-bit consumer desktop, with 256MiB of RAM standard".


ROTFLMAO, CKASF

[irobot71]

My 2 cents:

Powerbook 15" Al will show but I think only the 17" will have the 970. Apple would never put a more powerful chip inside their midrange laptop. Just like the imac if you want superdrive you must go all the way.

I think the 17" will have that low wattage 1.2-1.4 Ghz 970 the 15" might stick with the g4 or 1.2 ghz 970. I really do not see the 12" having the 970(right now). Maybe bumped up to 1 ghz g4.

Powermacs have to have 970 across the board. my guess single 1.2-1.4 ghz low
1.6-8 mid and 1.8 dual high.

Maybe top of the line will not even need to be dual. If the 970 is at least twice as fast as the g4 plus 400mhz fsb.

The others (Imac Emac Ibook) Idont see them getting updated soon. I don't think they want to put those overclocked g4s in the more heat sensitive machines. I think the next revision will give them the low wattage laptop 970s for a complete lineup


-I

[mkaake]

Originally posted by DoJo
Perhaps there is no live stream because the 970s are still under development and they don't want to risk a system crash during a demo with a million people watching.

lol!!! sorry - i just downloaded win98crash.mov just the other day... the one where bill gates is standing there, and the presenter is talking about how when he plugs in the new device, windows 98 will automatically recognize it and start talking to it... and it bluescreens!!!

lol!!!

i highly reccomend it for any mac person out there... again... win98crash.mov... just search for it in google...

matt

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by irobot71
...only the 17" will have the 970. Apple would never put a more powerful chip inside their midrange laptop.

Many people look at the 17" and simply say "that's too big".

The 17" isn't a laptop, it's a portable desktop. Great if that's what you need, questionable if you're going to carry the huge beast around every day.

Apple would be smart to put the 970 in all three...

. the 17" for the willy-wavers who want the biggest
. the 12" for people who want small size more than all the features
. the 15" for everyone else who has a fat checkbook

[Longey Nowze]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
This is really funny - "64-bit consumer"!


What "consumer" needs 4 GiB or more of RAM? 64-bits isn't any faster or better than 32-bits, unless you've hit the "31-bit" wall of 2GiB of memory.


I can see the specs - "the first 64-bit consumer desktop, with 256MiB of RAM standard".


ROTFLMAO, CKASF

wasn't Bill Gates that said something like "no one will need more than 640Kb of ram"

I dont se any sense in what you said, 256MiB of RAM isn't enough! not of XP not of OS X you need at least 512MiB! saying that consumers dont need 64-bit processors is exactly like what billy said! it was a stupid statement at the time and it's even more stupid now! Apple has always done this kinda thing leading the pack with new tech, everything from using colours in the iMacs & dropping floppies! well thats no really tech to FireWire superdrives QE Gigabit ethernet and hopefully 64-bit for the masses! now every other companay is following...
my point is think of the future, and don't be stupid like billy... five years from now you can enjoy your 64-bit software on your five year old mac! then 10 years after that you might be using 128-bit computers...

THANK YOU & think of the future not the present
MaT

[Longey Nowze]

delete please

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by Longey Nowze
everything from using colours in the iMacs

Thank Gord that fad is over (and don't even mention the toilet-seat Ibooks!)!!!

Your shrill post missed the point completely - unless you're putting more than 2 GiB of RAM in a system you're going to get little or no benefit from 64-bits!! It will be laughable if Apple puts up big "64-bit" posters, and underneath them sells 256MiB or 512MiB (or even 1024MiB) systems.

64-bits is not faster than 32-bits.

If the 970 shows up it will be good for Apple - if, as the rumours say, it's a lot faster than a G4. Good because it's fast, not because it can do 64-bit.

For anyone who has 2 GiB or less of RAM, 64-bits won't be a benefit - a 32-bit CPU will be just as good.

If Apple ships a 32-bit OS X on the 970 - this will prove my point beyond a shadow of a doubt!!!

What a bunch of willy-wavers!

[MhzDoesMatter]

Remember Le Good Ole Days when it wasnt just everybody making announcement predictions? Now it seems every person who picked up an iPod and a refurbished eMac because they made a wrong turn and wandered into an Apple Store can just stumble upon a forum and start spouting predictions befitting of Ms. Cleo's precognitive associates.

I remember when people didn't just take random guesses and clearly unconnected rumors and weave together a tapestry of disillusioned expectations from groundless optimism that flies in the face of the hallmarks of true rumor-mongering tradition.

For instance, the promotional price cuts and budgets, like those extended on the laptops currently, might indicate a clearing of inventory channels. But would that mean new laptops at the first big Mac event? No, of course not! Why you could easily look at the ending date and safely assume that was around the time Apple would debut new systems. Not in the middle of a promotion that would cut into the logic defying monkey-profit that results from the insane need for the newest hardware that plagues most Mac Cultists. Just a random example.

At least last traces of this once noble art are evident in places like MacRumor's Buyer's Guide which bases purchase recommendations on something relatively tried and true as product refresh cycles, not the fact that everyone on the internet wants one, some site says their coming, I think Apple owes me this, and Gosh darnit, wouldn't it just be cool?

Wow... I remember when this used to be fun.


-Truth Hz

[tjwett]

Originally posted by Lokii
Seems to me that the image is part of iSync. It looks like a way to keep bookmarks up to date on different Macs.

Just my 2cents

Yeah, I think so too. I spent all night trying to get iSync to look like that but no luck. The only thing it does bear a resemblence to is the some of the user pages on the .mac site. They have those same Logout and Preferences on some pages but nothing like that, with bookmarks and stuff. Looks like something very very new. :confused:

[Hawthorne]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
This is really funny - "64-bit consumer"!


What "consumer" needs 4 GiB or more of RAM? 64-bits isn't any faster or better than 32-bits, unless you've hit the "31-bit" wall of 2GiB of memory.


I can see the specs - "the first 64-bit consumer desktop, with 256MiB of RAM standard".


ROTFLMAO, CKASF

Read this. (http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/03q1/ppc970/ppc970-6.html) Then get back to us, 'k?

And BTW, think a second on how being able to take advantage of a quicker FSB will help as well.

[avus]

From West Side Story
"Something's coming"
Lyrics by Stephen Sondheim

(Tony)
Could be!
Who knows?
There's something due any day;
I will know right away,
Soon as it shows.
It may come cannonballing down through the sky,
Gleam in its eye,
Bright as a rose!

Who knows?
It's only just out of reach,
Down the block, on a beach,
Under a tree.
I got a feeling there's a miracle due,
Gonna come true,
Coming to me!

Could it be? Yes, it could.
Something's coming, something good,
If I can wait!
Something's coming, I don't know what it is,
But it is
Gonna be great!

With a click, with a shock,
Phone'll jingle, door'll knock,
Open the latch!
Something's coming, don't know when, but it's soon;
Catch the moon,
One-handed catch!

Around the corner,
Or whistling down the river,
Come on, deliver
To me!
Will it be? Yes, it will.
Maybe just by holding still,
It'll be there!

Come on, something, come on in, don't be shy,
Meet a guy,
Pull up a chair!
The air is humming,
And something great is coming!
Who knows?
It's only just out of reach,
Down the block, on a beach,
Maybe tonight . . .


As you may know, by the end of this musical, Tony is DEAD :rolleyes:

[jobberwacky]

Originally posted by dickrichie
Does anyone have any idea why Germany iis such a big deal?
Quite simple: SJ and the the whole Apple Crew disagree with the warmongering politics of the dubbya clan. They are therefore considering to relocate to Old Europe (TM).

You read it here first.


Andreas

(Insert irony tags where you think they belong).

[mcl]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Thank Gord that fad is over (and don't even mention the toilet-seat Ibooks!)!!!

Your shrill post missed the point completely - unless you're putting more than 2 GiB of RAM in a system you're going to get little or no benefit from 64-bits!! It will be laughable if Apple puts up big "64-bit" posters, and underneath them sells 256MiB or 512MiB (or even 1024MiB) systems.

64-bits is not faster than 32-bits.

If the 970 shows up it will be good for Apple - if, as the rumours say, it's a lot faster than a G4. Good because it's fast, not because it can do 64-bit.

For anyone who has 2 GiB or less of RAM, 64-bits won't be a benefit - a 32-bit CPU will be just as good.

If Apple ships a 32-bit OS X on the 970 - this will prove my point beyond a shadow of a doubt!!!

What a bunch of willy-wavers!


You seem to sufffer from the misconception that the only benefit a 64-bit CPU brings with it is the ability to address RAM from 4GB to 18Exabytes.

There are myriad other benefits, including much more efficient bus use, larger word size, and greater accuracy in mathematical computations.

This translates into increased performance, irrespective of bus speed (as compared to similarly-clocked 32-bit CPU architectures).

Being able to address memory above the 4GB "barrier" is the very least of the 64-bit benefits. Please educate yourself.

[CybrCyfr]

When reviewing a past press release, something strikes me as odd;

"expanded labs with the latest Mac systems where developers can port and test their code and get technical assistance from the Apple engineers directly responsible for the technologies"

Why would developers need to "port" code if the OS was not 64bit? What am I missing?

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/may/08wwdc.html

[eric67]

Originally posted by agreenster
It means the 970's will definitely make their way into the desktop line eventually...just be patient. A 64 bit chip's native home is in a server, so its only logical thats where it will start in the Apple product line.

I agree with you but my filling is that we will get both new XServe and PowerMac. I mean get real all of you, even if you do not want to trust Macbidouille.com; IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO ORDER A PowerMac in France in most of the big Apple resellers, and since last week-end it is the same for the Powerbook 15. so there is definitely something going on....
I would love to be next week.....

Eric

PS: regarding the invitation of Apple Germany, the correct translation is in the forum, and indeed the main point is SPEED.

[tduality]

Originally posted by Tim Flynn
Maybe even a two button mouse:D

You're asking for too much.:D

[tduality]

Originally posted by JoeRadar

No one will doubt that Apple has the (1) best hardware, (2) best operating system, (3) best user environment/experience, (4) best complete consumer package (iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes,...), (5) best package for creative professionals, (6) best development environment, (7) best solution for scientific research, (8) best visionaries, (9) best trend-line for improvement, and (10) and best solution for the foreseeable future.

Hmmmm, felt good to read that. Seems like there's only one thing left for Apple to do: Convince some more people that this is the case.

[zon7]

We have to take this with more care.
Remember when they introduced the new iMac. Lot's of hype all around and finally almost everybody got furious with it. No PDA, no magic lamp and no inflatable Brithney Spears G4 :P
And also remember that there was all this hype on their web page, and at the end nothing. So take this with care.

Maybe they will only introduce the iGore, an speaking robot with limited moves that wants to be president of the USA. lol

[jobberwacky]

Originally posted by zon7
Maybe they will only introduce the iGore, an speaking robot with limited moves that wants to be president of the USA. lol

Wouldn't that bot be named after the material it's built of? The 'AlGore'?

[mathiasr]

Originally posted by mcl
You seem to sufffer from the misconception that the only benefit a 64-bit CPU brings with it is the ability to address RAM from 4GB to 18Exabytes.

There are myriad other benefits, including much more efficient bus use, larger word size, and greater accuracy in mathematical computations.

This translates into increased performance, irrespective of bus speed (as compared to similarly-clocked 32-bit CPU architectures).

Being able to address memory above the 4GB "barrier" is the very least of the 64-bit benefits. Please educate yourself.
64 bits memory addressing is the most important benefit, any 32 bits CPU could do 64 bits math, it would only require more code and execution time.

64 bits computing has a few drawbacks: pointers get bigger (they will take more room in the L1 and L2 caches), context switchs will require more datas to be saved (again caches will take a hit), to achieve the same results as in 32 bits mode you may have to resort to precision reduction (this would increase the code size and could lead to slowdowns).

Memory transactions granularity on the bus is related to the cache-line size (32 bytes on most PowerPCs, 128 bytes on POWER 3-5), I do not see why having 64 bits registers would mean more efficient bus use.

Only a few specific apps can take advantage of the computation range offered by 64 bits registers, more of them gobble always more and more memory.

[dekator]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
This is really funny - "64-bit consumer"!

What "consumer" needs 4 GiB or more of RAM? 64-bits isn't any faster or better than 32-bits, unless you've hit the "31-bit" wall of 2GiB of memory.

I can see the specs - "the first 64-bit consumer desktop, with 256MiB of RAM standard".


ROTFLMAO, CKASF

Yeah, sure. Think ahead, man. But then, as Bill Gates once said "64K are enough for everybody". Apple is ahead of times, that's all.

[Bensch]

macrumors translated "special or something".

The correct translation is BREATHTAKING. Sounds better, hmm?

Bensch

[dekator]

It's been said a couple of times already but "... exspect new that will surpass all your exspectations concerning speed". "A new era in computing (of computers)". Well, it may be overhyped but definitely this can only mean PPC 970s. Apple badly, badly, badly needs faster top-of-the-line machines. Now they think they've got them. Hypertransport and all.
I'm really curious to see how well Hypertransport does in real world tests. Also, don't forget that theses beasts will have their "Altivec" implementation as well. Combine that with a wickedly fast bus + decent processor speeds. Gnarrr, harrr... :cool:

As for why Berlin?: 'Coz it is, as the invitation states, "in the heart of Europe" Are you getting the drift ?

[grayleg]

The "Heart of Europe" is very strange. Not likely used by marketing ppl. The pic is obvs. Photoshopped. Sorry Guys, u'll have to wait a couple of days.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by Hawthorne
Read this. (http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/03q1/ppc970/ppc970-6.html) Then get back to us, 'k?

And BTW, think a second on how being able to take advantage of a quicker FSB will help as well.

How about re-reading what I said? Your reference is not relevant.

Having a faster FSB is good, it's just that it has nothing to do with 64-bitness! A 970 running in complete 32-bit mode should be very fast, due to the FSB and impressive internal design.

Will it get faster in 64-bit mode? No. 64-bit will be useful once you cross that 4GiB barrier, and especially if you run individual programs that need more than 4GiB of RAM.

I'm simply pointing out that it is pure HYPE to tout a machine's 64-bitness if it only has 256MiB or 512MiB of RAM -- almost nothing useful will come of having a 64-bit machine with small amounts of memory. Nothing useful that couldn't just as well be done by a 32-bit machine, that is.

Note also that large memory support doesn't even need 64-bits. Intel processors support up to 64 GiB of RAM per system, allowing you to run many 4 GiB programs simultaneously. It's very common for servers to support more than 4GiB, even Intel desktops and workstations support 4 GiB to 12 GiB (e.g. look at http://www.hp.com/workstations/ia32/index.html)

[dermeister]

ok.... with all the stores getting these freaking boxes, I DOUBT not even one emplyee will peak... Wheres the holdup?!?

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

Originally posted by dekator
It's been said a couple of times already but "... exspect new that will surpass all your exspectations concerning speed". "A new era in computing (of computers)". Well, it may be overhyped but definitely this can only mean PPC 970s. Way beyond the rumorsites? :rolleyes:

[OSeXy!]

Originally posted by e-coli
no, this image. very intriguing.

That image is still on the UK site...

http://www.apple.com/uk/isync/

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by mcl
You seem to sufffer from the misconception that the only benefit a 64-bit CPU brings with it is the ability to address RAM from 4GB to 18Exabytes.

There are myriad other benefits, including much more efficient bus use, larger word size, and greater accuracy in mathematical computations.

This translates into increased performance, irrespective of bus speed (as compared to similarly-clocked 32-bit CPU architectures).

Being able to address memory above the 4GB "barrier" is the very least of the 64-bit benefits. Please educate yourself.

And you're in the camp that thinks that 64-bit is some magic elixir that can improve everything. ;)

Look at http://www.anandtech.com/guides/viewfaq.html?i=112
What good is 64-bit computing?

There is one good use for 64-bit integer arithmetic: 64-bit flat memory addressing. Offering memory addressing beyond 4GB, 64-bit addressing needs 64-bit general purpose registers and 64-bit integer arithmetic for memory pointer calculations.

This obviously has no effect on 32-bit vs. 64-bit performance, since 64-bit memory addressing on a 32-bit processor is a moot point.

That article bebunks your other claims as well....

Did you know that x86/G4/970 all support exactly the same floating point formats? Same size and precision? No 64-bit benefit here.

Did you know that the P4 and G4 already have internal datapaths up to 256 bits in width? They have 64-bit wide external memory busses. They can load 64-bit (fp) and 128-bit registers (sse/altivec) in a single cycle. No 64-bit benefit here.

Did you know that C compilers (VC++ and gcc) have support for 64-bit integers already? They generate extra instructions to accomplish this, but the program has the same precision 64-bit integers whether the code runs on a 32 or 64 bit CPU.

Separate the 64-bit truth (more memory) from the hype. The 970 is a fast CPU that happens to be 64-bit. It is not a fast CPU because it is 64-bit.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by dekator
Yeah, sure. Think ahead, man. But then, as Bill Gates once said "64K are enough for everybody". Apple is ahead of times, that's all.

I like 64-bits - I use 64-bit systems every day. Most of them have at least 16 GiB of RAM.

What I'm arguing is that if Apple shouts "64-bits" and sells you boxes with 256MiB of RAM, that's like putting a tachometer that goes to 12,000 RPM on your Trabant.

Nice tach, but what good is it?

http://www.m.benndorf.easynet.be/PRIVATE/CARS/TRABANT/t7.jpg
http://www.m.benndorf.easynet.be/PRIVATE/CARS/TRABANT/Home.html

[OSeXy!]

Well, all PowerMacs on the UK site now have delivery times of 6-8 days... Sounds encouraging!

TiBooks are still shown with 'next day' delivery...

[Vanilla]

In my opinion if (and its a big if) they do introduce the 970 it surely will be introduced in both the PowerMacs and all variations of the Powerbooks, i.e. the entire premium end of Apples hardware range will be switched.

People are always willing to purchase lesser clocked chips in return for a lower price, which is why speed bumps do not cause massive slumps in sales of lesser powered machines. However, a move from one chip design to another will (rightly) be regarded as considerably more significant than a standard speed bump and users will want to move on to the new platform asap.

If the 970 was solely introduced into the Powermac range, Powerbook sales would dry up pretty quickly as the public waited for the inevitable upgrade. Equally if the 15" Powerbook was the only powerbook to receive the 970 sales of the 12" and 17" would also grind to a halt. I just cannot see Apple engineering that situation.

So if the rumors are true and the 970 is imminent I for one feel that Apple will take the opportunity to revamp considerably more than just the Powermac/15" Powerbook products.

On the downside, if we are instead looking at straight G4 speed bumps the inevitable widespread frustration and disappointment will be palpable and extremely uncomfortable for Apple, which will likely cause Apple to take a long hard look at popular rumour sites that helped to generate such over expectation.

Interesting times.....

Vanilla

[arn]

Translation has been edited to clarify/correct.

arn

[djtet]

Originally posted by blueBomber
And it was mentioned (jokingly) that maybe Porche made a case for Apple. Hey, I know more than few car-shop guys who mod out pc cases for people. Maybe Steve is trying to show them all up by hiring the best:D

I'm sorry if someone pointed this out already, as I haven't read through this entire thread yet, but porshe already makes case designs for vpr matrix products, which are sold exclusively at Best Buy stores click here (http://www.vprmatrix.com/difference_design.asp)

As for the 970 powermacs...IF it does happen, I just hope I can afford one!!! :D

[cubist]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
... For anyone who has 2 GiB or less of RAM, 64-bits won't be a benefit - a 32-bit CPU will be just as good. ...

No, that's not quite true. There are a few users with big databases (big disk files) who will get improved performance from a 64-bit processor, but they're not a large segment of the user community.

[pellucidity]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
And you're in the camp that thinks that 64-bit is some magic elixir that can improve everything. ;)

Look at http://www.anandtech.com/guides/viewfaq.html?i=112


That article bebunks your other claims as well....



Actually, it doesn't wholly debunk the claims made; The great hope for PPC performance has become AltiVec. The FAQ specifically states it refers to the limitations of SISD; SIMD can gain. Granted, the SIMD circuitry isn't all that different in the 970 vs the G4, but it is relevant.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by pellucidity
Granted, the SIMD circuitry isn't all that different in the 970 vs the G4, but it is relevant.

AltiVec is not 64-bit! It doesn't have 64-bit datatypes, the largest atom is 32-bit.

How is a 32-bit SIMD engine relevant to a 32 vs 64 bit debate?

I'll explain - the only relevance is that on the 64-bit platform you can use more than 2 to 4 GiB of RAM with that SIMD engine.

Do you catch that refrain - "64-bits means more memory"...

[ssamani]

Originally posted by Longey Nowze
wasn't Bill Gates that said something like "no one will need more than 640Kb of ram"


I *think* it was actually one Steven P. Jobs referring to the mem in the original Macintosh in 84 and its lack of upgrade options compared to the IBM PC.

Of course a consumer doesn't need a 64bit processor but the Mac community needs faster PowerPC chips and that's what's on offer to them. Of course someone will find someway to max out that chip for some novel new use of the PC we've not thought of yet and we'll wonder how we ever managed to cope without.

Given the market's current obsession with big numbers (3 GHz, etc.), it will also help Apple's marketing who won't care if it doesn't mean anything. I also think this is why we won't be waiting on Panther for 970 PowerMacs - 32 bit mode will do just fine as long as they have the bragging rights over the processor.

Sanj

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by cubist
No, that's not quite true. There are a few users with big databases (big disk files) who will get improved performance from a 64-bit processor, but they're not a large segment of the user community.

"Databases' are just "big disk files"???? Hmmm....

Please support your claim. Databases are the "killer app" for 64-bit systems today, for sure.

Why? Because with 64-bits you can connect a lot of RAM to cache the database indices and tables - greatly reducing disk traffic.

You don't need 64-bits for large files. NTFS and HFS+ both are already 64-bit filesystems, and support files larger than 2GiB in size. The 32-bit systems do a few extra integer additions to calculate the 64-bit file offsets, but those few instructions are insignificant for the total code path.

I regularly work with video files of several hundred GiB on my XP system. Don't need 64-bits, and it wouldn't help unless I had hundreds of GiB of RAM to cache those files. (And even then, caching would only help if I made multiple passes through the source - a single pass through encoding would be disk limited.)

Obviously, video will be one of the earlier consumer uses for 64-bits. If you have 8GiB to 16 GiB or so of RAM on your home PC, a video editor could keep the preview quality streams in memory - and you'd have a pretty snappy NLE system. These 64-bit consumer apps will show up over time - but you're not going to benefit from them if your PPC970 Mac has 256 MiB of RAM.

Note again - "if you have 8GiB...". 64-bits is good for more memory. No way that you need it for large files, unless you want to cache the data in those files.

64-bit database servers are not "64-bit consumer" applications - we're talking about systems where spending $50,000 to $100,000 just for the RAM is not uncommon. 64-bit professional workstation applications aren't "64-bit consumer" either.

I think that "first with 64-bit consumer" is a nonsense line that's only invented so that Apple can claim some kind of "first".

The truth of the matter is that Windows 64-bit has been around for quite a while for workstations - you can get a Windows XP 64-bit dual CPU Itanium system with 16 GiB RAM today for $28,000 at the HP website ($23,000 of that is for the RAM, $5000 for the workstation). http://www.hp.com/workstations/itanium/zx6000/

64-bit UNIX desktops came out at least a decade ago. Apple won't be "first" to provide 64-bits to the applications that need it....

[Philippe]

There are millions of users out there who will feel like their systems has become worthless
Do you think upgarde cards based on PPC970 will work on the former Mobo?

Ok there will be a huge bottleneck but when I see benchmark of the current cards on Beige G3 against the new Tower it's not like heaven and earth. It's actually pretty close.

[Tim Flynn]

Originally posted by cubist

The new version of ProjectBuilder/Cocoa/OpenStep will allow a Mac to be used to develop applications that run on Mac or Windows.


That would be great (and a Brilliant move) :)

[Tim Flynn]

Do we need 64 bit computers ?

Do we need 3 GHz processors ?

No, ... but we want them :D

We want snappier, we want to out do the Jones next door. That is want marketting is telling us anyway.

[sedarby]

Originally posted by kansaigaijin
not streamed on-line because they want people in the stores with credit card in hand for new 970 Powerbooks AND PowerMacs, as MacB had them going into production at least a month ago, that would indicate why the conference was delayed, so that the machines were ready, the Panther demo was a decoy.

As anyone in software development will tell you, it is not unusual for a product to slip a month in order to provide a more robust product. No 970's, just a more solid build of Panther and Server.

[Tim Flynn]

I think something(s) big is are coming out of Apple at the WWDC and after.
I think Mr. Jobs is going to have a lot of fun with this.
So, ... I might as well have fun with it as well.

[ant_s]

What type of graphics card do we want to see in the new PowerBook(s)?

If they're gonna stick with NVIDIA I think it's about time they used GeForce FX Go...the good ones, of course.

Any thoughts?

[NNO-Stephen]

Originally posted by Philippe
There are millions of users out there who will feel like their systems has become worthless
Do you think upgarde cards based on PPC970 will work on the former Mobo?

Ok there will be a huge bottleneck but when I see benchmark of the current cards on Beige G3 against the new Tower it's not like heaven and earth. It's actually pretty close.

no upgrade cards for G4 > 970.

too different.

[elo]

Why has no one pointed out that boxes shipped to computer stores hold not one but numerous machines, particularly in the case of smaller systems such as notebooks? The idea that anyone would see small boxes and large boxes and assume notebooks and desktops, respectively, is therefore laughable. For that writer to actually see notebook-sized boxes, the boxes on a single pallette would have to be held together by shrinkwrap (which is possible), but with *no paper covering the notebook-sized boxes*. If that were true (and knowing Apple, it never would be), someone could immediately see what product they hold.

I've also said this before, but Steve is on the record saying that WWDC is not a venue for new hardware. This might change, of course, but expectations here are *way* too high.

elo

[NNO-Stephen]

Originally posted by elo
Why has no one pointed out that boxes shipped to computer stores hold not one but numerous machines, particularly in the case of smaller systems such as notebooks? The idea that anyone would see small boxes and large boxes and assume notebooks and desktops, respectively, is therefore laughable. For that writer to actually see notebook-sized boxes, the boxes on a single pallette would have to be held together by shrinkwrap (which is possible), but with *no paper covering the notebook-sized boxes*. If that were true (and knowing Apple, it never would be), someone could immediately see what product they hold.

I've also said this before, but Steve is on the record saying that WWDC is not a venue for new hardware. This might change, of course, but expectations here are *way* too high.

elo

expectations are way too high, yes... but boy it sure is fun! screw reality, we have wild speculation and we actually have rumors to back it up.... if you can use rumors to back anything up that is. but hey, why wouldn't any of it be announced?

[dekator]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
I like 64-bits - I use 64-bit systems every day. Most of them have at least 16 GiB of RAM.

What I'm arguing is that if Apple shouts "64-bits" and sells you boxes with 256MiB of RAM, that's like putting a tachometer that goes to 12,000 RPM on your Trabant.

Nice tach, but what good is it?


Well, I see your point now. Still, copious amounts of RAM will soon become useful, and anyway, I know few "consumers" that stay with their original amount of RAM. Anyway, of course 64bit doesn't do much in the way of speed as such, unless you write code to deal with very big chunks of data (like Video, e.g.). I is useful there.

[cgaraffa]

Originally posted by pkradd
CNBC streamed the recent Apple event that introed new iPods and iTMS. No reason to believe they won't do the same for WWDC, even if Apple only streams to stores as they did recently...
Remember that most, if not all of the stuff at WWDC is NDA'd. If Apple did broadcast the WWDC keynote, they'd have to cut out stuff that they'd otherwise be presenting to NDA'd developers...

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by dekator
Still, copious amounts of RAM will soon become useful, and anyway, I know few "consumers" that stay with their original amount of RAM.

One key thing will be to look at the max memory that the systems will support.

If it's the same old 2 GiB, people who now use 64-bits will laugh at any Apple ad that shouts "64-bit". 2 GiB would probably be the max for a laptop (x86 laptops have that, there are 4GiB SPARC laptops but they're big and heavy).

If the max is 4 GiB...yawn. 16 to 32 GiB would be very interesting. And it's OK if Apple says "4 GiB now, 16 GiB when X GiB DIMMs are available" - headroom is important.

unless you write code to deal with very big chunks of data (like Video, e.g.)

Actually, video has very small chunks of data (frames), just huge numbers of them! ;)

[dekator]

Originally posted by grayleg
The "Heart of Europe" is very strange. Not likely used by marketing ppl. The pic is obvs. Photoshopped. Sorry Guys, u'll have to wait a couple of days.

What's strange about the "Heart of Europe", man ?
Maybe it is for someone from Sweden, a country that refuses to take part in Europe. For others it's not strange at all. Odd you would say so.

If I'd say: "In Topeka, the heart of America". That wouldn't be strange either, would it. Or would it ?

Also, I think there is a good chance the invitation isn't fake. Anyway, Cancom, a reseller has put up a pic on their shop page, showing a wrapped-in Powermac. Text: NEUE Apple Desktops
ab Montag 23.06. abends (= New Apple Desktops, starting Monday evening 23rd of June). So, the PPC 970 *is* coming.
http://shop.cancom.de/shop/MediaAndBusinessSolutions/wa?showtemplatecomponent=t_startseite

[Stike]

Heart of Europe is not too far fetched, as you can think that it comes close to the center of the EU (kind of). The link here, Cancom store (http://shop.cancom.de/shop/MediaAndBusinessSolutions/wa?showtemplatecomponent=t_startseite) shows that they are quite confident of new machines. Hmm.
Of interest, if you save the pick of the packed PowerMac to the Desktop, the filename is (translated) "G5-packed-grey-small.jpg"... heheheh!!:cool:

[jobberwacky]

Originally posted by dekator
What's strange about the "Heart of Europe", man ?
Maybe it is for someone from Sweden, a country that refuses to take part in Europe.[/url]

Huh? <cynism>You're American, right? </cynism>

Sweden is a memebr state of the EU. Maybe you mean Switzerland? That is admittedly not a member, but geographically very definitively in the heart of Old Europe (TM).

But I agree, if we're talking about the entire continent (as one should when talking about 'Europe') then Berlin is a good candiate to be its heart. It's multi-cultural and geographically close to the former Eastern European countries (it was halfway part of "Eastern Europe" and more or less halfway on the north-south line as well.

Andreas

[mcl]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
And you're in the camp that thinks that 64-bit is some magic elixir that can improve everything. ;)

Look at http://www.anandtech.com/guides/viewfaq.html?i=112


That article bebunks your other claims as well....

Did you know that x86/G4/970 all support exactly the same floating point formats? Same size and precision? No 64-bit benefit here.

Did you know that the P4 and G4 already have internal datapaths up to 256 bits in width? They have 64-bit wide external memory busses. They can load 64-bit (fp) and 128-bit registers (sse/altivec) in a single cycle. No 64-bit benefit here.

Did you know that C compilers (VC++ and gcc) have support for 64-bit integers already? They generate extra instructions to accomplish this, but the program has the same precision 64-bit integers whether the code runs on a 32 or 64 bit CPU.

Separate the 64-bit truth (more memory) from the hype. The 970 is a fast CPU that happens to be 64-bit. It is not a fast CPU because it is 64-bit.


*yawn*

Yes, but the datapath to/from the CPU it 32-bit in all your examples. You neglect to acknowledge the simple fact that doubling that data path halves tranfer rate with a 64-bit bus vs. the same bus with a 32-bit CPU ingress/egress.

Did you know that current compilers that can produce 64-bit precision on 32-bit chips not only do it with extra instructions, but that those extra instructions *disappear* when compiled 64-bit clean on a 64-bit CPU?

Did you know that the register size is irrelevant, on the current G4/P4s, as the bottleneck we're discussing -- and thus one of the benefits we'll see -- is the point at which data enters or leaves the CPU?

You're full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Please finish fretting your time upon this stage.

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
And you're in the camp that thinks that 64-bit is some magic elixir that can improve everything.
Stop thinking backwards!

By 2010 all consumer computers will most likely be 64-bit. It's the next logical step. Someone at Microsoft (I don't think it was Gates, but it definitely wasn't Steve Jobs) made the claim that nobody would ever need a 32-bit chip. So would you like to try running iTunes on a Lisa?

BTW, the 970 processes more Gigaflops than the G4. Much more. And gigaflops are a major factor in computing power. Possibly even more important than clock speed. And, speaking of clock speed, let's not forget that the 970 alone will have better speeds than any G4 Moto has tried to crank out.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by mcl
*yawn*

Yes, but the datapath to/from the CPU it 32-bit in all your examples. You neglect to acknowledge the simple fact that doubling that data path halves tranfer rate with a 64-bit bus vs. the same bus with a 32-bit CPU ingress/egress.

You do realize that both the Pentium4 and the G4 have 64-bit external data busses, don't you?


Did you know that current compilers that can produce 64-bit precision on 32-bit chips not only do it with extra instructions, but that those extra instructions *disappear* when compiled 64-bit clean on a 64-bit CPU?
Of course, this is obvious.

And you realize that integer instructions are single cycle in most cases, so a 3GHz chip takes 166 picoseconds extra for that extra instruction. (Remember that the integer ALU on a Pentium 4 is double-pumped, and actually runs at 6GHz on a 3GHz chip.)

64-bit integers are fairly uncommon, so a few hundred picoseconds now and then doesn't matter for the overwhelming majority of applications.

[steveh]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
This is really funny - "64-bit consumer"!

What "consumer" needs 4 GiB or more of RAM? 64-bits isn't any faster or better than 32-bits, unless you've hit the "31-bit" wall of 2GiB of memory.

There is more to 64-bit OS's than just addressing, *if* the processor running it has, for example, wider than 32-bit registers.

Other architectual details can have a lot of effect on performance...more than just the total address space.

[mcl]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
You do realize that both the Pentium4 and the G4 have 64-bit external data busses, don't you?


You do realize that part of my post -- the part you chose not to quote -- explains in small words that the point I was making regards the point of ingress and egress between the bus and the CPU, don't you? I don't care if it's got a 2^128 bus: If you double the datapath from the bus to the CPU (i.e., go from a 32-bit to 64-bit CPU), you'll reduce the time necessary to get data on and off the bus, and thus increase performance.


And you realize that integer instructions are single cycle in most cases, so a 3GHz chip takes 166 picoseconds extra for that extra instruction. (Remember that the integer ALU on a Pentium 4 is double-pumped, and actually runs at 6GHz on a 3GHz chip.)


I happen to work on systems doing real-time processing where that extra 166 picoseconds matters. Your point?

You may also want to deal with the fact that it's floating-point, not integer, where the 970 shines against the current crop. I notice you've been studiously avoiding discussing FLOPS.


64-bit integers are fairly uncommon, so a few hundred picoseconds now and then doesn't matter for the overwhelming majority of applications.

Again, you curiously avoid the obvious benefit of 64-bit floating-point calculations, which aren't uncommon.

Your misdirection's not all you'd wish.

[clarkcox3]

Originally posted by ssamani
I *think* it was actually one Steven P. Jobs referring to the mem in the original Macintosh in 84 and its lack of upgrade options compared to the IBM PC.

Actually no, for the longest time, you had to use horrendous hacks to get PCs to use more then 640 KB of memory. The origional Macs had a 128K and 512K limit respectively, not 640K. After that, no Mac shipped with less than 1MB.

[3.1416]

Originally posted by cgaraffa
If Apple did broadcast the WWDC keynote, they'd have to cut out stuff that they'd otherwise be presenting to NDA'd developers...

Last year the entire keynote was specifically not under NDA.

[3.1416]

Originally posted by elo
Steve is on the record saying that WWDC is not a venue for new hardware.

When did he make a global statement like that? Apple has denied new hardware at specific events (not this one), but if 970s are going to ship in a few months it makes no sense for them to hold back because "WWDC isn't for hardware".

[mistersquid]

"640K ought to be enough for anybody"

That is the voice of the enemy, a piece of computing prognostication attributable to Bill Gates in 1981. (Do people really not know this, or are people funning?)

Just in case, here are some 7,230 websites that say so. (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22640K+ought+to+be+enough%22&btnG=Google+Search&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1)

[dekator]

Originally posted by jobberwacky
Huh? <cynism>You're American, right? </cynism>

Sweden is a memebr state of the EU. Maybe you mean Switzerland?
Andreas

No, I'm not American and I'm well aware that Sweden is a member of the EU. However, AFAIK, they haven't joint the single currency yet. The latter is what I was referring to. However, I wasn't really serious. I just wanted to diss back ;-)

[jobberwacky]

Originally posted by dekator
No, I'm not American and I'm well aware that Sweden is a member of the EU. However, AFAIK, they haven't joint the single currency yet. The latter is what I was referring to. ;-)
Yep, you're right about Sweden not (yet) having joined Euroland. However, why single out Sweden? The UK of A (as the country was quite appropriately called years ago in "Spitting Image") hasen't joined either. (Nor has Denmark, but it's long been known that there's something rotten in that state ;-)

Andreas

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by mcl
If you double the datapath from the bus to the CPU (i.e., go from a 32-bit to 64-bit CPU), you'll reduce the time necessary to get data on and off the bus, and thus increase performance.

I happen to work on systems doing real-time processing where that extra 166 picoseconds matters. Your point?

You may also want to deal with the fact that it's floating-point, not integer, where the 970 shines against the current crop. I notice you've been studiously avoiding discussing FLOPS.

Again, you curiously avoid the obvious benefit of 64-bit floating-point calculations, which aren't uncommon.

What's 64-bit floating point have to do with a discussion of 32-bit and 64-bit processors? Both P4 and G4 have 64-bit wide internal datapaths to the 64-bit registers already. No news here.

If the 970 has a superb floating point unit - fine. But that's unrelated to the bit width of the integer/pointer registers - which is what defines a 32-bit or 64-bit CPU.

Did you know that the G4 already has:

64-bit wide datapath from memory and/or L3 cache to the chip
256-bit wide datapath between L2 cache and L1 cache
128-bit wide datapath between L1 cache and vector registers
64-bit wide datapath between L1 and floating registers
32-bit wide datapath between L1 and integer registers

So, with that information in hand, what's your point about ingress/egress and 32 vs 64 bit CPUs?

Check out: MPC7450 RISC Microprocessor Family Technical Summary (http://e-www.motorola.com/brdata/PDFDB/docs/MPC7450TS.pdf) (particularly the diagram on page 4) at http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7455&nodeId=03C1TR046708718653

[mcl]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
What's 64-bit floating point have to do with a discussion of 32-bit and 64-bit processors? Both P4 and G4 have 64-bit wide internal datapaths to the 64-bit registers already. No news here.



If the 970 has a superb floating point unit - fine. But that's unrelated to the bit width of the integer/pointer registers - which is what defines a 32-bit or 64-bit CPU.



Did you know that the G4 already has:



64-bit wide datapath from memory and/or L3 cache to the chip

256-bit wide datapath between L2 cache and L1 cache

128-bit wide datapath between L1 cache and vector registers

64-bit wide datapath between L1 and floating registers

32-bit wide datapath between L1 and integer registers



So, with that information in hand, what's your point about ingress/egress and 32 vs 64 bit CPUs?


deId=03C1TR046708718653[/url]


My point is that you keep pointing to things that are either on-die or on-chip, and cliaming that's the be-all and end-all of enhancements, while you continue to ignore the fact that, no matter how big the internal datapaths are, they're bottlenecked if any data must pass to or from the chip to the rest of the system by the 32-bit access path.

A 64-bit chip doubles this access path.

As for "64-bit wide datapath from the memory and/or L3 cache to the chip", you're incorrect. From L3 cache, yes. That's on-chip (but not on-die). But there is no 64-bit wide path from the chip to and from the memory bus. it's 32-bit. Period.

However, you seem intent on ignoring even fundamental facts about the 64-bit advantages, jumping up and down and pointing at relative register sizes as though it eliminates the advantage of a double-sized interface between chip and system busses. So perhaps you'd better just end here, as will I. I obviously believe what I believe, you obviously believe what you believe. You're not persuading anyone, nor am I.

But feel free to have the last word, as I'm sure it's a pre-requisite for your ego.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by mcl
...they're bottlenecked if any data must pass to or from the chip to the rest of the system by the 32-bit access path.

A 64-bit chip doubles this access path.

As for "64-bit wide datapath from the memory and/or L3 cache to the chip", you're incorrect. From L3 cache, yes. That's on-chip (but not on-die). But there is no 64-bit wide path from the chip to and from the memory bus. it's 32-bit. Period..

But feel free to have the last word, as I'm sure it's a pre-requisite for your ego.

http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7455&nodeId=03C1TR046708718653
36-bit physical address space for direct addressability of 64 Gigabytes of memory
High-bandwidth 133 MHz 64-bit MPX Bus/60x Bus

http://e-www.motorola.com/brdata/PDFDB/docs/MPC7450TS.pdf
2.7 System Interface
The MPC7451 supports two interface protocols—MPX bus protocol and a subset of the 60x bus protocol. Note that although this protocol is implemented by the MPC603e, MPC604e, MPC740, and MPC750 processors, it is referred to as the 60x bus interface. The MPX bus protocol is derived from the 60x bus protocol. The MPX bus interface includes several additional features that provide higher memory bandwidth than the 60x bus and more efficient use of the system bus in a multiprocessing environment. Because the MPC7451 performance is optimized for the MPX bus, its use is recommended over the 60x bus.

The MPC7451 bus interface includes a 64-bit data bus with 8 bits of data parity, a 36-bit address bus with 5 bits of address parity, and additional control signals to allow for unique system level optimizations.


http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html
Full 128-bit internal memory data paths


http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/PowerMacG4Sept02/2Architecture/Processor_Bus.html
Processor Bus
The processor bus is a 133 or 167 MHz bus connecting the processor module to the U2 IC. The bus has 64-bit wide data and 32-bit wide addresses. The bus uses MaxBus protocols, supported by the U2 IC.

[mathiasr]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
The MPC7451 bus interface includes a 64-bit data bus...
You did not mention the funniest:
http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC970_MPF2002.pdf
PowerPC 970:
- Two unidirectional buses
- 32-bit read, 32-bit write :D

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by mathiasr
You did not mention the funniest:
http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC970_MPF2002.pdf
PowerPC 970:
- Two unidirectional buses
- 32-bit read, 32-bit write :D
I was saving that irony for later! ;)

But first, I was going to mention the fact that the memory DIMMs are 64-bits wide - and ask if it was just a coincidence that 8 bytes times the 167Mhz memory bus gives the same 1.3GB/sec that Apple claims for memory bandwidth?


<kidding>

Hmmm.... PPC970 has 32-bit busses.

The 32-bit G4 computer has 64-bit busses, and the 64-bit PPC970 computer has 32-bit busses.... That would make the 970 4 times slower than the G4, right, because it needs twice as much and it gets half as much?

</kidding>

[dekator]

Originally posted by jobberwacky
Yep, you're right about Sweden not (yet) having joined Euroland. However, why single out Sweden? The UK of A (as the country was quite appropriately called years ago in "Spitting Image") hasen't joined either. (Nor has Denmark, but it's long been known that there's something rotten in that state ;-)

Andreas

As I said, I was joking. Sweden because the guy was from Sweden (no good lashing out at the UK then, is it ?).
Denmark, yes, well... *no comment*.
As for the UK, I hardly consider them to be European anymore. If the UK takes the Euro or not, frankly, I couldn't care less. But Sweden, now, those used to be reasonable, nice ppl :-)

BTW, "UK of A" that's superb (ich lach' mich rund und kugelig). :D :D :D

[dekator]

By the words of Pascal Cagni (head of Apple Europe):
Dear Developer,
We would like to invite you to Berlin to watch Steve Jobs keynote live from the Worldwide Developers Conference in San Francisco. We have chosen Berlin as our location following our first "Live from San Francisco" event held in Paris in January which was a great success. Berlin, the new capital of Germany has experienced much change and enjoyed an influx of investment since the fall of the wall making it one of the fastest changing capitals in Europe today. Our German market has one of our largest customer bases in Europe and is home to an increasing number of Mac OS X developers. Berlin, Germany - The perfect place to celebrate WWDC Live!
We'd like you to join us at the Axica to watch Steve's keynote, learn more about our announcements at the Apple Product Showcase and enjoy a night full of surprises. On Tuesday 24th we will be holding a special briefing at the Intercontinental Hotel and offering you the chance to see more of Berlin
I wonder whether the "night full of surprises" refers to new products or the topless dancers that.... oh well ;-)

[iJon]

Originally posted by dekator
By the words of Pascal Cagni (head of Apple Europe):
Dear Developer,
We would like to invite you to Berlin to watch Steve Jobs keynote live from the Worldwide Developers Conference in San Francisco. We have chosen Berlin as our location following our first "Live from San Francisco" event held in Paris in January which was a great success. Berlin, the new capital of Germany has experienced much change and enjoyed an influx of investment since the fall of the wall making it one of the fastest changing capitals in Europe today. Our German market has one of our largest customer bases in Europe and is home to an increasing number of Mac OS X developers. Berlin, Germany - The perfect place to celebrate WWDC Live!
We'd like you to join us at the Axica to watch Steve's keynote, learn more about our announcements at the Apple Product Showcase and enjoy a night full of surprises. On Tuesday 24th we will be holding a special briefing at the Intercontinental Hotel and offering you the chance to see more of Berlin
I wonder whether the "night full of surprises" refers to new products or the topless dancers that.... oh well ;-)
free lapdances from the berlin house of whores, or maybe a preview of panther....

iJon

[daveL]

It doesn't hurt that Germany is also the strongest and largest economy in the EU.

[kansaigaijin]

topless and/or lapdancing nothing special in Berlin.

[LionMage]

I have a coworker in my office who works part time at an Apple Store in the Phoenix Metro area (we have two Apple Stores in our area, one in Chandler and one in Downtown Phoenix at the Biltmore Fashion Park). I won't be more specific than that because I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

First off, Apple is often in the habit of shipping products in boxes that say "Do not open before XX date." The box might contain cables, or it might contain new hardware. You never know. My coworker told me that Apple does this to make sure that certain products hit the shelves at the same time everywhere, regardless of what that product is, and it's nothing special. The only reason people are making a big deal in this case is because of the timing.

So, is something big coming at WWDC? Hard to say, but all signs tentatively point to yes. My coworker told me this morning that he just found out some insider info which he would not elaborate on because he'd lose his job with the Apple Store. All he would say is that something big was coming, and that I would be happy. So that could mean anything. But if he says I'm going to be happy, then whatever is coming is going to be cool. So I have faith. But I'm not automatically assuming PPC 970 hardware is coming out next week, and neither should you.

[daveL]

Originally posted by LionMage
I have a coworker in my office who works part time at an Apple Store in the Phoenix Metro area (we have two Apple Stores in our area, one in Chandler and one in Downtown Phoenix at the Biltmore Fashion Park). I won't be more specific than that because I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

First off, Apple is often in the habit of shipping products in boxes that say "Do not open before XX date." The box might contain cables, or it might contain new hardware. You never know. My coworker told me that Apple does this to make sure that certain products hit the shelves at the same time everywhere, regardless of what that product is, and it's nothing special. The only reason people are making a big deal in this case is because of the timing.

So, is something big coming at WWDC? Hard to say, but all signs tentatively point to yes. My coworker told me this morning that he just found out some insider info which he would not elaborate on because he'd lose his job with the Apple Store. All he would say is that something big was coming, and that I would be happy. So that could mean anything. But if he says I'm going to be happy, then whatever is coming is going to be cool. So I have faith. But I'm not automatically assuming PPC 970 hardware is coming out next week, and neither should you.

I hope it's OK that I "crosspost" this from the newer "last minute rumors" thread:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?source=blq/yhoo&siteid=yhoo&dist=yhoo&guid=%7B786058C6%2D9E65%2D4E84%2DAD0D%2D9506B7C5E7C6%7D

This article indictates new 970 PowerMacs
next Monday.

[Blackcat]

Originally posted by daveL
It doesn't hurt that Germany is also the strongest and largest economy in the EU.

No, Germany has maybe the worst economy in Europe atm. Before the euro it was strong, but currently it is suffering. I think France is one one of the strongest eurozone countries.

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by JoeRadar
Given Apple's hype for Monday (even ignoring the chatter on the rumor sites)... What hype?

Maybe you mean the but news on their website? Or possibly the press releases? Or the use of many people in major cities passing out information in strange and unusual formats? No, wait, its the big posters in the retail stores, right? Or the ads in USA Today?

What? You don't know what I'm talking about? Well, that's alright, because neither does Apple. Seriously, other than a few developer-targeted mailings, WWDC has hardly been hyped. At least, it hasn't been hyped by Apple.

Does this mean that nothing major is coming? Of course not. I am hoping, as are (I believe) most avid mac fans, that Monday's keynote has many wonderful things to say about the new slew of fast machines. That doesn't mean that I would claim that Apple has hyped the event, however. They haven't made any real claims outside of a few fairly isolated mentions (compared to what a PR blitz should be). Maybe they'll do one later this week?

Sorry if that's a disappointment to you... but it does seem to match reality.

-Richard

[Geetar]

Originally posted by Blackcat
No, Germany has maybe the worst economy in Europe atm. Before the euro it was strong, but currently it is suffering. I think France is one one of the strongest eurozone countries.

A little glance at pwcglobal.com (Price WaterhouseCooper) for projected GDP growth will soon set you right there.... France is another of the "semi-sick men" of Europe right now, and both economically and demographically looks fair set to crawl along like a wounded animal for a while yet. Pensions funding , healthcare and other Public spending policies are, as usual, the unaddressed bogeymen....

Sorry for the OT, but I can't understand WHERE your idea about France came from.

[Blackcat]

Originally posted by Geetar
A little glance at pwcglobal.com (Price WaterhouseCooper) for projected GDP growth will soon set you right there.... France is another of the "semi-sick men" of Europe right now, and both economically and demographically looks fair set to crawl along like a wounded animal for a while yet. Pensions funding , healthcare and other Public spending policies are, as usual, the unaddressed bogeymen....

Sorry for the OT, but I can't understand WHERE your idea about France came from.

I live in Europe and know lots of real people. Forget analyst mumbo-jumbo, they only serve themselves and frequently predict things will get better/worse but they don't.

Back on topic: if half these European reports are true it's a good thing. Mac market share is well over 3% here (I've seen 12% quoted for the UK but that seems a bit high).

[dekator]

Originally posted by Blackcat
No, Germany has maybe the worst economy in Europe atm. Before the euro it was strong, but currently it is suffering. I think France is one one of the strongest eurozone countries.

This is hilarious ! I'm almost pissing in my pants. Ever since the Brits started discussing the Euro issue, they've come up with this nonsense. Germany is still the strongest economy in Europe, and no mistake. (You can check at a million places on the net).
The Euro has nothing to do with it at all. Yes, Germany's economy is in a slump, but had very small growth rates even before the Euro. Actually, right after the introduction of the Euro, unemployment went down and growth went up. But this wasn't followed by the neccessary reforms (structural). If anything, the Euro has done a lot of good to Germany (e.g. it has reduced administrative costs tremendously). But yes, German economy is doing very badly. That, however, doesn't mean it isn't still the biggest (GNP wise etc.) in Europe.

[Geetar]

Originally posted by Blackcat
I live in Europe and know lots of real people. Forget analyst mumbo-jumbo, they only serve themselves and frequently predict things will get better/worse but they don't.

Back on topic: if half these European reports are true it's a good thing. Mac market share is well over 3% here (I've seen 12% quoted for the UK but that seems a bit high).

Thanks for the heads up on "reality" .....I AM an analyst (or is that an anal-ist?) and also a Limey only recently out of London. I think I've still got a toe-hold on real life ;)

Back on topic: Yes, 12% is WAY high...5-6% seems more like it. That will improve very soon, I think.

[ssamani]

Originally posted by clarkcox3
Actually no, for the longest time, you had to use horrendous hacks to get PCs to use more then 640 KB of memory. The origional Macs had a 128K and 512K limit respectively, not 640K. After that, no Mac shipped with less than 1MB.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that the Mac ever had 640K. My point was that I didn't think Bill Gates every said "you'll never need more than x", but that it was Steve refering to the original Mac. I had in my mind that he said 128k, but I couldn't believe that was correct. I can't find the exact quote but as I remember it he looked back with a rueful realisation that it wasn't a very good idea.

After a quick Google, I found these that imply that Steve did have that sort of attitude, although it suggests that he didn't want people to expand rather than they didn't need.

From: http://www.woz.org/letters/pirates/03.html

WOZ:Steve Jobs felt that the early Mac should be very closed to have good control over what it was and did. But that left oversights like memory expansion. So the 128K 'first' Mac had to soon be replaced by the 512K model (as RAM prices dropped).



From http://www.mackido.com/Innovation/OpenCases.html

Rumor is that Steve got wind of this and so had Mac128 motherboards "hole-punched". Basically they drilled holes through the motherboard to ruin it for ever upgrading it beyond 128K of RAM. If you wanted to upgrade, you could do a motherboard swap -- and pay Apple mighty heavily.


All that being said, the Google search also showed I was wrong anyway:

http://www.cha4mot.com/q_cha.html

640K ought to be enough [computer memory] for anybody.
Bill Gates, 1981

Oh well...

Sanj

[dekator]

So, is something big coming at WWDC? Hard to say, but all signs tentatively point to yes

Well, now it's official (more or less) with Apple's leak. Scepticism is a good thing but with even official retail stores *announcing* new PowerMacs... well, I think the G5 is a safe bet.

[sinclairZX81]

Originally posted by dekator
As for the UK, I hardly consider them to be European anymore. If the UK takes the Euro or not, frankly, I couldn't care less. But Sweden, now, those used to be reasonable, nice ppl :-)

BTW, "UK of A" that's superb (ich lach' mich rund und kugelig). :D :D :D

hey man, I'm British and I consider myself thoroughly European. don't tar us all with the same brush.:(

[Geetar]

A new definition of "European"........

Any nation prepared to say:

"I agree with the Germans and French about.............." Fill in the dots.:rolleyes:

Dekator:The line that the Brits aren't Europeans because they didn't want to play "Euro-Chauvinist" with the French and Germans was officially retired at least 15 years ago. Do grow up.

Again sorry for the OT.

[ZenArcade]

found it on appleinsider

scary scary scary

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26406&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

[Pete_Hoover]

I bet there is going to be a new powermac with only one cd drive, and 3 pci slots. Not to mention two measley hard drive expansion thingies.

[Mudbug]

Originally posted by Pete_Hoover
I bet there is going to be a new powermac with only one cd drive, and 3 pci slots. Not to mention two measley hard drive expansion thingies.


WTF.

Pete, you are aware that this has already been released, right? Or is the posting system THIS slow? Surely not...