Hating the United States

[Lord Blackadder]

An interesting op-ed piece (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6547881.stm)...I'd like to listen to radio program, but living here in the Great Satan I don't get BBC radio. ;)

The French especially should check themselves - Le Pen is unlikely to be elected but the fact that he is running with some support makes a statement.

[princealfie]

Yeah but the thing is that there is so much injustice here :mad:

[Swarmlord]

Yeah but the thing is that there is so much injustice here :mad:

The candy machine downstairs just shorted me five cents! Oh, the injustice!

[obeygiant]

An interesting op-ed piece (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6547881.stm)

In May 1944 (just weeks before American GIs landed on the beaches of Normandy), Hubert Beuve-Mery, the founder of Le Monde newspaper - certainly no mouthpiece of the right - wrote this: "The Americans represent a real danger for France, different from the one posed by Germany or the one with which the Russians may - in time - threaten us. The Americans may have preserved a cult of Liberty but they do not feel the need to liberate themselves from the servitude which their capitalism has created. "

This notion is quite old.

[princealfie]

The candy machine downstairs just shorted me five cents! Oh, the injustice!

did you tip over the machine yet? :eek:

[Peterkro]

Another Goddamn crushed by a vending machine.^^^

[Desertrat]

Yeah, the notion is old, for sure. Doesn't become any more rational with age, either.

Capitalism has rules, just like any system, any game. Most folks don't like to put out the little effort needed to learn the rules. Or take on the responsibilities for consequences that thinking for oneself requires.

The great thing about capitalism is that it allows any entrepreneurial thinker a way to find some money to bankroll the Good Idea. Doesn't matter if it's a Henry Ford or a Steve Jobs...Or a guy who thinks up hula hoops, frisbees or pet rocks, for that matter. :D

'Rat

[princealfie]

Yeah, the notion is old, for sure. Doesn't become any more rational with age, either.

Capitalism has rules, just like any system, any game. Most folks don't like to put out the little effort needed to learn the rules. Or take on the responsibilities for consequences that thinking for oneself requires.

The great thing about capitalism is that it allows any entrepreneurial thinker a way to find some money to bankroll the Good Idea. Doesn't matter if it's a Henry Ford or a Steve Jobs...Or a guy who thinks up hula hoops, frisbees or pet rocks, for that matter. :D

'Rat

Yeah the only rule of captialism is to award yourself at least a $1000000 a day or else you're not considered a real enterpeneur.[sic]

[Lord Blackadder]

Yeah the only rule of captialism is to award yourself at least a $1000000 a day or else you're not considered a real enterpeneur.[sic]

Easy there - I don't understand how you could be so heavily critical of an economic system that has made you, personally, more wealthy that 90% of the people in the world...If you were from Sudan and twlling me this it would give you more credibility.

[princealfie]

Easy there - I don't understand how you could be so heavily critical of an economic system that has made you, personally, more wealthy that 90% of the people in the world...If you were from Sudan and twlling me this it would give you more credibility.

Me wealthy? Yeah, I am not proud of being richer than any of the Sudanese in fact.

I am for capitalism in a mixed economy but not for outrageous capitalism.

What guy is worth over a $1,000,000/day? I think no one seriously.

The most anyone should make is $1,000,000/year. If you can't survive on that, then sorry buster.

[OldCorpse]

What a truly bad article that was. The topic of Anti-Americanism is interesting, so I was excited to read something on it, but this is not even on the level of a grade school paper. Sorry. Of course, what do you expect, when his entire insight into French Anti-Americanism (which exists for entirely different reasons, also deplorable), was based on Bernard-Henri Levy.

And who is BHL? A fraud, opportunist, bigot and liar - caught in lies red-handed when he wrote his book on America (lies about Katrina among other things). This is supposed to be the expert, quoted with approval, on American-French perspectives? He's been denounced across the spectrum (including by the mother of Daniel Pearl). Read up on this scumbag and his American book - an article far more revealing about what is going on here:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/the_lies_of_bernard_henri_leacutevy/

[Dane D.]

Yeah but the thing is that there is so much injustice here :mad:
Examples please.
princealfie
Me wealthy? Yeah, I am not proud of being richer than any of the Sudanese in fact.
I am for capitalism in a mixed economy but not for outrageous capitalism.
What guy is worth over a $1,000,000/day? I think no one seriously.
The most anyone should make is $1,000,000/year. If you can't survive on that, then sorry buster.
I think you were born about a century to late and in the wrong country. You would of made a perfect second lieutenant (banana) to Lenin. When limits are placed on people, that society as a whole declines. There are plenty of examples of this throughout Man's history.
I love this country, it is not perfect, no society is, but it is far better than anything else on this planet. :)

[Swarmlord]

did you tip over the machine yet? :eek:

Should have pumped three rounds into it and then hunted down the guy that stocks it. :)

[Swarmlord]

Examples please.

I think you were born about a century to late and in the wrong country. You would of made a perfect second lieutenant (banana) to Lenin. When limits are placed on people, that society as a whole declines. There are plenty of examples of this throughout Man's history.
I love this country, it is not perfect, no society is, but it is far better than anything else on this planet. :)

Well said.

[princealfie]

Examples please.

I think you were born about a century to late and in the wrong country. You would of made a perfect second lieutenant (banana) to Lenin. When limits are placed on people, that society as a whole declines. There are plenty of examples of this throughout Man's history.
I love this country, it is not perfect, no society is, but it is far better than anything else on this planet. :)

Wow, examples of injustice in the US... my goodness do I need to start at the Gitmo prisons and end at the Rodney King or Diallo shooting case in NYC?

Yeah, outrageous capitalism is bad for the nation. But that's alright, in 10 more years only 0.000000000000000000001% will own about 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the GNP in the US.

And I don't care anyways because it can't be stopped and at least I have my macbook :)

[obeygiant]

Yeah, outrageous capitalism is bad for the nation. But that's alright, in 10 more years only 0.000000000000000000001% will own about 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the GNP in the US.


Wait, thats like saying 1 person will own the entire US.

In a country of +/- 300 million I'd say there are, what, 250,000 people who make over a million a year? I cant find any sources tho.

[princealfie]

Wait, thats like saying 1 person will own the entire US.

In a country of +/- 300 million I'd say there are, what, 250,000 people who make over a million a year? I cant find any sources tho.

Okay here you go:

http://www.newsbatch.com/econ-top1.GIF

Net Worth Distribution 2001
Source: Domhoff: Wealth, Income, and Power

"Economic inequality can also be measured in terms of overall wealth. The imbalance in wealth is far more dramatic than the imbalance of incomes. The top 1% of the population has more than a third of the country's wealth and the top 5% own almost 60%. The already small share owned by the bottom 80% has been diminishing. The share of wealth of the top 1% has returned to the levels which existed prior to World War 2.

Many believe that economic inequality is a disturbing trend because of the increasing polarization of what had been an admirably pluralistic society. Income disparities have produced conspicuous consumption among the wealthy and an impoverished "underclass" which includes most recent immigrants and a disproportionate number of African-Americans. There has been a growing "residential segregation" based on income status. America's cities and suburbs are increasingly identifiable by the income group which lives there. The consequences of this economic segregation are significantly reduced educational and vocational opportunities for those in lower income groups. For example, young Americans in the upper 20% of income levels are far more likely to complete four years of college.

A major disturbing byproduct of economic inequality involves public attitudes. Many policy issues draw less consensus opinion because they affect income groups differently. The "underclass", saddled with a negative net worth and minimal income prospects, become resentful of the wealthy particularly when consumption is conspicuous. These attitudes naturally assume a racial and ethnic tone as well. The affect of this trend on the middle class has been more subtle. This group, which is diminishing in number, is far more "status conscious" than in previous decades. The result has been unnecessary consumption, a high rate of debt and bankruptcy and the first negative savings rate since the depression years.. Studies show that this increase in spending has not resulted in any gain in personal satisfaction."

[Dane D.]

Oh, about the Duke rape case, now there was injustice. The media and that most excellent of DAs, Nifong had that case wrapped up before it ever went to trial. Gitmo, yeah thats injustice, imprisoning terrorist suspects off our shores. Lets see; we feed them, provide them with a Koran, allow prayer, shelter them from the harsh tropical climate, provide nice orange clothing, hell we even allow them to spit on us. Yup injustice to me;)
As for your warped sense of economics, if it weren't for the giants of America's early industrial days, you wouldn't be on this web site typing your drivel. :p

Edit: where is it written in the Constitution that economic equality is a right?

[princealfie]

Oh, about the Duke rape case, now there was injustice. The media and that most excellent of DAs, Nifong had that case wrapped up before it ever went to trial. Gitmo, yeah thats injustice, imprisoning terrorist suspects off our shores. Lets see; we feed them, provide them with a Koran, allow prayer, shelter them from the harsh tropical climate, provide nice orange clothing, hell we even allow them to spit on us. Yup injustice to me;)
As for your warped sense of economics, if it weren't for the giants of America's early industrial days, you wouldn't be on this web site typing your drivel. :p

Edit: where is it written in the Constitution that economic equality is a right?

No wonder leekohler hates Ohio so much...

Okay, hmm... well let's see:

"He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries."

Sounds like someone familiar in the current admin eh buddy? :D :D

The Declaration of Independence declares that, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Without economic equality, there are many who are unhappy. Try earning $5.80/hr flipping burgers and supporting a family using that eh? :p

John Locke once said,

"[F]reedom of men under government, is, to have a standing rule to live by, common to every one of that society, and made by the legislative power erected in it; a liberty to follow my own will in all things, where the rule prescribes not; and not to be subject to the inconstant, uncertain, unknown, arbitrary will of another man."

Wow, looks like those CEO's are subjecting their arbitrary will of wanting to profit at the expense of others... Perhaps time for more wootcakes for ya, top of the morning eh? :p

[obeygiant]

America's cities and suburbs are increasingly identifiable by the income group which lives there. The consequences of this economic segregation are significantly reduced educational and vocational opportunities for those in lower income groups.

I mean, sure, thats the way it goes. Whats the alternative? Everyone makes $100,000 a year whether you're a doctor or a garbage collector? Not much incentive to be a doctor.

I guess you could make all education free, but people tend to abuse things they dont earn or pay for.

What does this have to do with hating the united states?

[princealfie]

I mean, sure, thats the way it goes. Whats the alternative? Everyone makes $100,000 a year whether you're a doctor or a garbage collector? Not much incentive to be a doctor.

I guess you could make all education free, but people tend to abuse things they dont earn or pay for.

What does this have to do with hating the united states?

Because it dispels any assumption that hating the United States is the same as being critical of its policies :D

[gkarris]

I mean, sure, thats the way it goes. Whats the alternative? Everyone makes $100,000 a year whether you're a doctor or a garbage collector? Not much incentive to be a doctor.



In IT, you don't make $100,000/year anymore - many jobs went overseas...

[princealfie]

In IT, you don't make $100,000/year anymore - many jobs went overseas...

One day the CEO position will be outsourced soon. We have all become zombies or robots instead. The new golden calf will be Paris Hilton :eek:

[nbs2]

http://www.newsbatch.com/econ-top1.GIF

This chart has me thinking. Where is the living wage point (clearly, every MSA has it's own point)? I really don't have an issue with outragous possession of wealth be a few - if sufficient numbers have less, there just won't be spending opportunities for the rich.

I am pretty sure that my family falls into the Bottom 80%, and we are comfortable enough. Everything we need, we can find an affordable solution for. Would we love to own a large home, all the furnishings we could want, several cars and a room full of Mac Pros? Yes. But what we have, we need or we find a way.

As capitalism leads to more concentrated wealth, the self-interest of the wealthy will demand that they find distribution methodologies.

[princealfie]

This chart has me thinking. Where is the living wage point (clearly, every MSA has it's own point)? I really don't have an issue with outragous possession of wealth be a few - if sufficient numbers have less, there just won't be spending opportunities for the rich.

I am pretty sure that my family falls into the Bottom 80%, and we are comfortable enough. Everything we need, we can find an affordable solution for. Would we love to own a large home, all the furnishings we could want, several cars and a room full of Mac Pros? Yes. But what we have, we need or we find a way.

As capitalism leads to more concentrated wealth, the self-interest of the wealthy will demand that they find distribution methodologies.

No doubt but think of it, the rich repubs always talk about being so family-oriented and they probably enjoy starving millions of a families can't even afford the basic rent and food just to survive.

[nbs2]

No doubt but think of it, the rich repubs always talk about being so family-oriented and they probably enjoy starving millions of a families can't even afford the basic rent and food just to survive.

I don't think greed is limited to one group of people. Look at the major cities - they tend to lean left, and it ain't just the poor folks that do so. On both sides of the aisle, you'll find folks that care about the poor and folks that don't give a crap.

For example, I think of my grandparents in India. I don't think that they would qualify for the Top 5% or whatever, but they were very well off. They were very much social conservatives as one would look at conservative today (they were pretty centered during their era). One thing that my grandma would do every year for the kids' birthdays was take them to an orphanage to serve. It was a reminder that whatever you were blessed with, including another year of life, it was your duty to share as you were able. They did a lot of other service, but that one point still stands out to me. I'm probably a little more centrist than they were, but I struggle with remembering to go to little service projects like going to can chicken noodle soup...

Anyway, point of that rambling paragraph was sort of an affirmation of my first sentence - greed knows no bounds.

[princealfie]

According to my calculations, a rough estimate:

Total income for US during 2005 was approximately 114,384,000 x $46,326 = $5298953184000 total income for that year.

Income level: # Households: Total income Average income in bracket:
Top 1% 1143840 1748654550720 $1528758 per household
Next 4% 4575360 1377727827840 $301119 per household
Next 5% 5719200 635874382080 $111182.40 per household
Next 10% 11438400 688863913920 $60223.80 per household
Bottom 80% 91507200 847832509440 $9265.20 per household

Okay, fair is fair. But this is just morally wrong isn't it.

The top 1% of the country make approximately 165 times more income than the bottom 80% of the country.

Hmm... sad state of affairs.

[nbs2]

Bottom 80% 91507200 847832509440 $9265.20 per household


Not doubting you, but something seems amiss with this calculation. Between a fairly low enemployment rate and legal requirements, this just doesn't add up.

Min wage for 40/week for 50/year is $10,300. I suppose that if this is including illegals and unemployeds, the number may be lower, but i don't think a full $1000 lower.

EDIT: I think I misapplied your chart of wealth to a wage (although I expesct a pretty strong, but not perfect, correlation). That led us down this wrong path. I think wealth would have been spread a bit better, but in the housing boom, wealth was sold for a bigger, unaffordable, house.

[Desertrat]

I've been hearing this childish drivel about the evils of the ultra-wealthy since back in the JFK era. Heck, maybe before that, but I didn't pay any attention.

I've been keeping an eye on the world at large and how other people's decisions affect my billfold, my lifestyle.

Rich folks, generally, haven't harmed me one iota. About the only obvious rich guy who's screwed over entire countries is George Soros, with his currency manipulations. He clobbered the bejeezus out of the Thais and the English, back in 1997. The year he gave some $50 million into trying to defeat Dubya, he grossed a billion bucks in his manipulations.

Even so, he didn't hurt me.

Generally, the most harm to my billfold, these last forty-some years, has come from the Congress and the Texas legislature.

Hey, this is a country where an automechanic can charge $65 an hour, and where a guy with an old pickup truck, a lawnmower, a weedeater and a blower can gross better than $80K. What's not to like?

If money is one's goal, this country is an entrepreneur's wet dream. And it always has been. Y'all like macs, right? Cui bono?

'Rat

[Desertrat]

And as long as I'm on my (bleeeeep) soapbox:

Some 35 years ago, a couple of gay gals came out here. They didn't have the proverbial pot nor window. They worked for minimum wage and in physical hard work for a couple of years. They then worked into a deal hauling really big rock for construction of a cabaret/RV Park.

Then, they bought a chunk of dirt that wasn't all that desirable and started in with rental cottages. Later, a little motel and a gift shop. Several years of hard work and sinking every stray dime into it.

One got her real estate broker's license. The other became a certified water treatment plant operator and built a potable water system for the school as well as the motel operation. (I helped get state health department approval.)

They became liked and respected in the community, years back. Their advice is sought after by many. Damned fine people.

So, although they wouldn't spout off and I wouldn't think of asking, I'd guess their present net worth is above a million bucks.

And they're not the only boot-strappers I know; they just started with less than many I know.

One thing that's common to folks like that: They don't sit around whining about what they ain't got, nor are they envious or jealous of others. Hey, they don't have that sort of time to waste; they're busy.

:D, 'Rat

[princealfie]

Cool beans, but I believe in economic equality and that has nothing to do with jealousy or what not.

We need a living wage for everyone seriously. There needs to be provisions for everyone to be able to support a family. Isn't America about equal opportunity?

Oh well probably not. Then again, perhaps my parents taught me that cynicism about these sort of dreams is all BS to begin with.

[princealfie]

And as long as I'm on my (bleeeeep) soapbox:

Some 35 years ago, a couple of gay gals came out here. They didn't have the proverbial pot nor window. They worked for minimum wage and in physical hard work for a couple of years. They then worked into a deal hauling really big rock for construction of a cabaret/RV Park.

Then, they bought a chunk of dirt that wasn't all that desirable and started in with rental cottages. Later, a little motel and a gift shop. Several years of hard work and sinking every stray dime into it.

One got her real estate broker's license. The other became a certified water treatment plant operator and built a potable water system for the school as well as the motel operation. (I helped get state health department approval.)

They became liked and respected in the community, years back. Their advice is sought after by many. Damned fine people.

So, although they wouldn't spout off and I wouldn't think of asking, I'd guess their present net worth is above a million bucks.

And they're not the only boot-strappers I know; they just started with less than many I know.

One thing that's common to folks like that: They don't sit around whining about what they ain't got, nor are they envious or jealous of others. Hey, they don't have that sort of time to waste; they're busy.

:D, 'Rat

BTW I'm not talking about the rich people who worked HARD to get where they are. Those are a rare breed.

MOST of the rich people don't work for what they get. Most of the oil executives get to do the Clinton thing and that's about it. They get paid like over a million bucks a day, just letting that war and the dirty work by our soldiers pump in cash while they relax in their LAZBOYS.

[SMM]

There are many valid reasons for hating the US. Leaders like Bush, Bush, Reagan, Nixon do not attract a lot of admirers. Interestingly, Democratic Presidents seem to draw praise. John Kennedy and Jimmy Carter were hugely popular in most of the world.

Many American traveling abroad, are incredibly ill-mannered. I have often been embarrassed by the actions of my fellow countrymen.

But, the actions of our corporations, and our misguided foreign policy, is truly dreadful.

[Lord Blackadder]

BTW I'm not talking about the rich people who worked HARD to get where they are. Those are a rare breed.

MOST of the rich people don't work for what they get. Most of the oil executives get to do the Clinton thing and that's about it. They get paid like over a million bucks a day, just letting that war and the dirty work by our soldiers pump in cash while they relax in their LAZBOYS.

I don't think that the existence of the oil barons in the US (who are a bunch of ********wits, I agree) means that our economic system is evil and that people across the world have a right to hate us...I've got news for you, there a lots of oil barons in Europe, Russia, the Middle East, Asia, South America etc. And they are all getting rich from oil.

There are ugly sides to capitalism - but I would argue that overall our system functions well and that combating inequality is more of a never-ending process than a realistically accomplishable goal (unless you are a utopian or "pure" communist).

There are many valid reasons for hating the US. Leaders like Bush, Bush, Reagan, Nixon do not attract a lot of admirers. Interestingly, Democratic Presidents seem to draw praise. John Kennedy and Jimmy Carter were hugely popular in most of the world.

In other words, we have good politicians and bad politicians, just like everybody else. Bush is bad, but there are others in power right now that are much, much worse...maybe they could come in for all this hate getting thrown around?

Many American traveling abroad, are incredibly ill-mannered. I have often been embarrassed by the actions of my fellow countrymen.

Here's something fresh...you're being xenophobic against your own culture! Honestly, the antics of "ugly American" tourists are an incredibly weak reason to hate America. Tourists from every nation go and behave badly abroad all the time, we are FAR from the only ones that do that. It's incredibly shallow to make generalizations about a 300-million-strong nation based on a stereotype about misbehaving tourists.

But, the actions of our corporations, and our misguided foreign policy, is truly dreadful.

Bad indeed, and the only reason so far that makes good sense. I hate corporations myself. But to be frank, multinational corporations are just that - not of one nation. Some may have come from the US but many are based elsewhere. That is a global issue.

Foreign policy is awful at the moment, and I understand why people are angry about it...I am too!

[princealfie]

I don't think that the existence of the oil barons in the US (who are a bunch of ********wits, I agree) means that our economic system is evil and that people across the world have a right to hate us...I've got news for you, there a lots of oil barons in Europe, Russia, the Middle East, Asia, South America etc. And they are all getting rich from oil.

There are ugly sides to capitalism - but I would argue that overall our system functions well and that combating inequality is more of a never-ending process than a realistically accomplishable goal (unless you are a utopian or "pure" communist).



In other words, we have good politicians and bad politicians, just like everybody else. Bush is bad, but there are others in power right now that are much, much worse...maybe they could come in for all this hate getting thrown around?



Here's something fresh...you're being xenophobic against your own culture! Honestly, the antics of "ugly American" tourists are an incredibly weak reason to hate America. Tourists from every nation go and behave badly abroad all the time, we are FAR from the only ones that do that. It's incredibly shallow to make generalizations about a 300-million-strong nation based on a stereotype about misbehaving tourists.



Bad indeed, and the only reason so far that makes good sense. I hate corporations myself. But to be frank, multinational corporations are just that - not of one nation. Some may have come from the US but many are based elsewhere. That is a global issue.

Foreign policy is awful at the moment, and I understand why people are angry about it...I am too!

Most multinational corporations are the foreign divisions of US companies to begin with... it's very rare to have a corporation which has a foreign origin honestly.

And yeah, I don't like oil barons from any country so there! :p :p :p

[solvs]

The candy machine downstairs just shorted me five cents! Oh, the injustice!
If the candy machine screwed up everything it touched, got us mired in a bunch of wars we're not winning while stretching our military to the limit, helped to run the deficit up, trampled all over our civil liberties, and turned the sympathy our country had from the rest of the world after 9/11 into at the best distrust, and worst raw hatred, viewing us as the threat instead of the victim, then yeah, that would be a good analogy.

Examples please.
You must be new here.

Rich folks, generally, haven't harmed me one iota.
Remember that the next time you're paying too much for gas at the pump or a utility turned monopoly, like the cable or phone company. Or the next time you call tech support and wait for a long time to get someone who doesn't know what they're doing, if they even speak English, because someone thought it would be cheaper and more profitable to outsource. Or you go into someplace like Circuit City and can't get a competent sales person because they fired all the good people to hire minimum wage lackies. Should I even bother pointing out Ford giving their CEO millions for losing money for a couple of months as they lay off workers and hemorrhage money, while moving plants out of the US? Not to mention the time some company thought it would be cheaper to pay off people injured by their vehicles exploding than pay for a recall. Or the tainted dog food. Or crime going up when the poor get poorer. Or more illegals coming over here, you're worried about that right (who do you think is employing them).

Boy the list just goes on and on doesn't it.

[Swarmlord]

<snip>
Okay, fair is fair. But this is just morally wrong isn't it.

The top 1% of the country make approximately 165 times more income than the bottom 80% of the country.

Hmm... sad state of affairs.

No it's not. Putting aside the titans of industry and self made people which I know you loathe, explain how are you going to either cap the salaries that say entertainers or sports figures make or raise the salaries of people that have no marketable skills. You going to tell the owner of the Lakers he can't pay Kobe $100 million? How about telling Tiger Woods he has to play for free because he makes too much from Buick? How about capping the salaries of movie stars to $50K a picture?

I know you envy the income of these people, but it doesn't make it morally wrong.

[Swarmlord]

BTW I'm not talking about the rich people who worked HARD to get where they are. Those are a rare breed.

MOST of the rich people don't work for what they get. Most of the oil executives get to do the Clinton thing and that's about it. They get paid like over a million bucks a day, just letting that war and the dirty work by our soldiers pump in cash while they relax in their LAZBOYS.

Self made rich people are the rule, not the exception. Your comments indicate to me that you've never spent any time in the boardroom of any large company much less an oil company. You're making this up as you go along.

[princealfie]

Self made rich people are the rule, not the exception. Your comments indicate to me that you've never spent any time in the boardroom of any large company much less an oil company. You're making this up as you go along.

Uh, no I have tons of friends who are in top level management. And yes, the further you move up the sliding scale, the less work you have to do.

Or perhaps 16 rounds of golf a day doesn't seem to matter much to that lowly janitor eh? :p

[QuarterSwede]

In IT, you don't make $100,000/year anymore - many jobs went overseas...
Tell that to the thousands of people who do just that in Northern VA. I know several people who make plenty doing IT (my father-in-law makes well over $100,000/year).

[princealfie]

Tell that to the thousands of people who do just that in Northern VA. I know several people who make plenty doing IT (my father-in-law makes well over $100,000/year).

That's because they are all working for the military IT which is a different type of IT compared to Silicon Valley IT.

[Swarmlord]

Uh, no I have tons of friends who are in top level management. And yes, the further you move up the sliding scale, the less work you have to do.

Or perhaps 16 rounds of golf a day doesn't seem to matter much to that lowly janitor eh? :p

When I worked at that level we worked longer hours than our employees, discussed strategies that could just as easily lose millions as make them, and we certainly weren't playing golf all day.

Post a list of the heads of companies that don't do squat before pulling out this popularized myth. I currently work a much lower responsibility job because I was tired of the stress of my 12 hour days and extensive travel and the effect it had on my personal life and health.

Create your own company sometime and let us know how much time you have free to play golf.

[princealfie]

When I worked at that level we worked longer hours than our employees, discussed strategies that could just as easily lose millions as make them, and we certainly weren't playing golf all day.

Post a list of the heads of companies that don't do squat before pulling out this popularized myth. I currently work a much lower responsibility job because I was tired of the stress of my 12 hour days and extensive travel and the effect it had on my personal life and health.

Create your own company sometime and let us know how much time you have free to play golf.

Yes, indeed. I used to work at a startup so I know how the game goes. I worked like 60+ hours at a startup company while the CEO was futzing around. Overrated honestly.

Perhaps we may have different experiences but surely you find it a complete joke that a CEO has to use a copter to get to work?

My goodness, privileged fools these mortals be!

[QuarterSwede]

That's because they are all working for the military IT which is a different type of IT compared to Silicon Valley IT.
I wasn't aware that the defense industry IT was smaller than "Silicon Valley" IT.

On the other topic, Upper management do do a lot of work, it is definitely less physical but they do have to make the big decisions that affect their entire workforce and that's the main reason they get paid a lot. And as far as your golf example goes, a lot of networking goes on in golfing. Deals and decisions are made there.

If there is one reason to be mad it's that who you know often affects what positions you get.

[Swarmlord]

Yes, indeed. I used to work at a startup so I know how the game goes. I worked like 60+ hours at a startup company while the CEO was futzing around. Overrated honestly.

Perhaps we may have different experiences but surely you find it a complete joke that a CEO has to use a copter to get to work?

My goodness, privileged fools these mortals be!

I bet that start up doesn't exist anymore either. Lol!

Did I say that some people don't try to abuse the priviledge? No. I will bet that employees that do this won't be paid to do it for long unless they actually own the company. If they want to waste their own money, then that's their business.

My brother-in-law flies a corporate jet for a man that started and completely owns his own company. Bought the entire jet and pays the salary of three pilots too. Why would you care whether he flies to work or not?

I guess I'm a glass half full kind of guy. I focus on what I want and I strive to get it. I don't even concern myself with what others have or make other than as data for discussions such as this. They certainly don't have their money and benefits at my expense.

As I mentioned in another thread, I vote with my money. Disney's financial dealings with Eisner, Katzenberg and Ovitz ticked me off and I wrote complaints and voted my stock until it changed. Ford is going to lose the option to sell me my next vehicle because of the money they just paid their CEO and I wrote and told them so.

[TequilaBoobs]

did you tip over the machine yet? :eek:

dont tip over the machine! over 40 people have died from suffocation/injuries related to tipping over vending machines (i.e., over 20 years), no joke!

[princealfie]

I bet that start up doesn't exist anymore either. Lol!

Did I say that some people don't try to abuse the priviledge? No. I will bet that employees that do this won't be paid to do it for long unless they actually own the company. If they want to waste their own money, then that's their business.

My brother-in-law flies a corporate jet for a man that started and completely owns his own company. Bought the entire jet and pays the salary of three pilots too. Why would you care whether he flies to work or not?

I guess I'm a glass half full kind of guy. I focus on what I want and I strive to get it. I don't even concern myself with what others have or make other than as data for discussions such as this. They certainly don't have their money and benefits at my expense.

As I mentioned in another thread, I vote with my money. Disney's financial dealings with Eisner, Katzenberg and Ovitz ticked me off and I wrote complaints and voted my stock until it changed. Ford is going to lose the option to sell me my next vehicle because of the money they just paid their CEO and I wrote and told them so.

That's what I call major mismanagement.

Honestly I would be working very conservatively if I were the CEO's... stick to the basics and cutting unnecessary expenses. Of course if you're swimming in wealth, I won't bother with the rest. What's the point of a plane unless you're flying international or long domestic flights for a meeting? Seriously a plane just for 10 miles.

And sorry that startup I work for still exists. Except that my position got replaced by some "illegal" immigrants... too bad they don't have the database expertise like they used to.

I am so glad I don't buy into the corporate brainwashing :D Put head in spin cycle baby. :apple:

So a :p top of the morning to ya! :D

[Lord Blackadder]

Most multinational corporations are the foreign divisions of US companies to begin with... it's very rare to have a corporation which has a foreign origin honestly.

I don't belive that - there are certainly lots of multinational companies based in the US, but the same is true for Japan, China and Europe among others...

[Don't panic]

Gitmo, yeah thats injustice, imprisoning terrorist suspects off our shores. Lets see; we feed them, provide them with a Koran, allow prayer, shelter them from the harsh tropical climate, provide nice orange clothing, hell we even allow them to spit on us. Yup injustice to me

so if they sent you there for your alleged fascist sympathies, you'd be fine as long as they gave you a bible to thump?

[Lord Blackadder]

so if they sent you there for your alleged fascist sympathies, you'd be fine as long as they gave you a bible to thump?

Apparently that's enough for some people...

[Dane D.]

Don't panic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane D. View Post
Gitmo, yeah thats injustice, imprisoning terrorist suspects off our shores. Lets see; we feed them, provide them with a Koran, allow prayer, shelter them from the harsh tropical climate, provide nice orange clothing, hell we even allow them to spit on us. Yup injustice to me
so if they sent you there for your alleged fascist sympathies, you'd be fine as long as they gave you a bible to thump?
Facist symapthies? No, I don't want more attacks on my soil.

solvs
You must be new here.
No, just a citizen that believes in the Constitution.

Where is it written that life is fair? This is the United States of America, the land of opportunity. Look at all those immigrants that came here and made a better life for themshelves. Look at all the people that want to come here because their home country is not allowing them to do the things they wish. The reason our own citizens hate this country is because they are too lazy to better themshelves. They spend their time waiting for a handout instead of looking for opportunities. They have this mentality of the Government is an entity that should provide for all. Wrong, the Government should not provide for them, they need to find a job and work just like the rest of us.

[Lord Blackadder]

No, just a citizen that believes in the Constitution.

I think all Americans do, but they don't interpret it the same way.

[princealfie]

Apparently that's enough for some people...

I think that Ezra Pound won the battle, didn't he? :p

[princealfie]

Facist symapthies? No, I don't want more attacks on my soil.


No, just a citizen that believes in the Constitution.

Where is it written that life is fair? This is the United States of America, the land of opportunity. Look at all those immigrants that came here and made a better life for themshelves. Look at all the people that want to come here because their home country is not allowing them to do the things they wish. The reason our own citizens hate this country is because they are too lazy to better themshelves. They spend their time waiting for a handout instead of looking for opportunities. They have this mentality of the Government is an entity that should provide for all. Wrong, the Government should not provide for them, they need to find a job and work just like the rest of us.

I'm amused. Perhaps you need to reread the Constitution again without those fancy Neo shades ya have on! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p

[skunk]

Facist symapthies? No, I don't want more attacks on my soil.And you think that ignoring the Geneva Conventions, the Red Cross and the UN, bombing the crap out of two countries and locking up people without charge or trial, is the way to prevent that, do you?

The reason our own citizens hate this country is because they are too lazy to better themshelves.I suppose it couldn't be because your administration has ruined your country, lined the pockets of the rich at the expense of the poor and shafted the international community? I suppose that would be too obvious.

[princealfie]

And you think that ignoring the Geneva Conventions, the Red Cross and the UN, bombing the crap out of two countries and locking up people without charge or trial, is the way to prevent that, do you?

I suppose it couldn't be because your administration has ruined your country, lined the pockets of the rich at the expense of the poor and shafted the international community? I suppose that would be too obvious.

That's what we call compassionate conservatism at its finest. (sarcasm button) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Desertrat]

princealfie, I must strongly disagree with your assessment about the majority of the wealthy not having worked for their wealth, earned their wealth. Every survey I've ever read concludes just the opposite. The Teddy Kennedy types are actually rather rare, insofar as inherited wealth, compared to the numbers of those who've created their own empires by their own efforts.

Insofar as "living wage", that's a goal that is not difficult to achieve. As I've commented earlier, that's available to auto mechanics and yard maintenance people. It's common for most white collar employees and union employees. It's common for most small business people.

When people blow off twelve years of free public schools, whose parents have inculcated no sense of "the future lies ahead" and one can be successful in that future, how is it anybody's fault but those involved? It takes a conscious decision to cut class or to not study or to just "hang out"--and avoid learning skills which have market value. "Society" didn't tell parents or kids that dronehood is noble.

There is more equality of opportunity here than in most other western countries. The concept of equality of result is an insult to everybody who's ever worked to be self-sufficient and independent.

And equality of result is physically impossible, anyway. One way or another, the guy who works smarter and harder is gonna come out way ahead. Always.

'Rat

[skunk]

Teddy Kennedy typesHow odd that you should select Teddy Kennedy as the archetype instead of George Bush...

[hulugu]

Interesting conversation, just thought I'd chime in.

Capitalism is an inherently amoral system and is given moral action by the players within. Good people can use the system to 'boostrap' their way up, owing to hard work and seizing the right opportunities. Immoral people can also use the system, bending its rules to their whims.
Ken Lay and your friendly neighborhood deli owner operate within the same system.

What's important is to try to ensure that the system remains fair, so that the 'pursuit of happiness' — the only Constitutional mention of economic theory, by the way —*can be ensured for those willing to work for it.

Right now, neither the supposed 'right' or 'left' in our political parties appear to understand this. Instead, we are left with empty posturing, on both sides, about the use of taxes, the necessity of education, and the usefulness of funding our infrastructure as a method of investment.

Hating the US is easy right now because we're represented by, as Lee Iacocca writes, clueless bozos, but this country can be great. We can be great if we listen to our better angels. We can be great if we want to be.

Lastly, any time we compare ourselves to Sudan, or the other weekly pick of a cesspool of human misery, is a failure of imagination. We don't compare ourselves to Sudan, we compare ourselves to the the 'city on the hill' and we strive not to be better than a place engaged in genocide, but better than utopia itself. We won't get there, but the attempt to be great may lead us to be merely good, which is certaintly better than running backwards, hoping Sudan won't catch up, while the rest of the world ends up laping us.

[yg17]

We don't even know if all of these people being held at gitmo are guilty of anything besides being in the wrong place at the wrong time. These guys aren't getting trials. Our government assumes that because they have dark skin and didn't welcome us with open arms, that they're terrorists. It is an injustice. They deserve the same right to a fair trial as anyone else.

[obeygiant]

We don't even know if all of these people being held at gitmo are guilty of anything besides being in the wrong place at the wrong time. These guys aren't getting trials. Our government assumes that because they have dark skin and didn't welcome us with open arms, that they're terrorists. It is an injustice. They deserve the same right to a fair trial as anyone else.

Its true that they deserve fair and speedy trial. But its more complicated than being "in the wrong place at the wrong time."

Seventy-five of the 132 men, or more than half the group, are -- like Farouq Ali Ahmed, the subject of National Journal's accompanying story -- not accused of taking part in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners. (The 75 include 10 detainees whom the U.S. government "no longer" considers enemy combatants, although at least eight of the 10 are still being held at Guantanamo.) Typically, documents describe these men as "associated" with the Taliban or with Al Qaeda -- sometimes directly so, and sometimes through only weak or distant connections. Several men worked for charities that had some ties to Al Qaeda; Farouq lived in a house associated with the Taliban.

Some of the "associated" men are said to have attended jihadist training camps before September 11, an accusation admitted by some and denied by others. The U.S. government says that some of the suspected jihadists trained in Afghanistan, even though other records show that they had not yet entered the country at the time of the training camps. Just 57 of the 132 men, or 43 percent, are accused of being on a battlefield in post-9/11 Afghanistan.

The government's documents tie only eight of the 132 men directly to plans for terrorist attacks outside of Afghanistan. link (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11825.htm)

On July 23, 2003, U.S. Major General Geoffrey Miller said that three-quarters of the roughly 660 detainees had confessed to some involvement in terrorism. Many have informed about friends and colleagues. According to Miller, the confessions were acquired through rewards that included extended recreation time, extra food rations to keep in their cells, or a move to the prison's medium-security facility.wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detainment_camp)

Some of the 9/11 hijackers only had "associations" with al Qaeda. So out of a country with millions (http://www.answers.com/topic/islam-in-the-united-states) of Muslims about 650 people had close enough associations to be arrested.

[skunk]

Some of the 9/11 hijackers only had "associations" with al Qaeda. So out of a country with millions (http://www.answers.com/topic/islam-in-the-united-states) of Muslims about 650 people had close enough associations to be arrested.And many of them were simply sold to the Americans at $5,000 apiece. So, what are you saying? :confused:

[Desertrat]

Well, skunk, Dubya has at least tried to make money by his own efforts. He didn't do all that bad with the baseball team. The Chappaquiddick Chicken's just sucked off his old man's estate and the public trough as his lifelong career.

'Rat

[hulugu]

Well, skunk, Dubya has at least tried to make money by his own efforts. He didn't do all that bad with the baseball team. The Chappaquiddick Chicken's just sucked off his old man's estate and the public trough as his lifelong career.

'Rat

I'd say that when you've gone to comparing yourself to Ted Kennedy you've already lost.

Dubya made a lifetime out of his father's connections and sank more than one business into the ground only to be bailed out, not to mention the SEC investigation, or his ability to weasel out of his National Guard duties. I submit that if Bush had been born middle-class he'd be lucky to be employeed as a used-car salesman.

[Agathon]

Many foreigners don't like the US political system because they don't want to be poor.

The US tends to project its society as living a largely upper middle class lifestyle. For example, American sitcoms tend to portray people who are quite rich by US standards. Some foreigners are seduced by this false picture of what an "average" American family lives like, and so they admire the US.

The rest of us do not buy this bull. We know that a large proportion of Americans live in shocking poverty. The average working class American is far worse off than the average working class Canadian, Australian, New Zealander or Swede. Some parts of the USA rival third world living conditions. You won't find that where I am from.

Frankly, a lot of us wonder how on earth your people put up with such a ridiculously inefficient social system. Many of us have concluded that you're brainwashed idiots.

Perhaps we are wrong, but electing Bush again didn't exactly help.

[hulugu]

Many foreigners don't like the US political system because they don't want to be poor.

The US tends to project its society as living a largely upper middle class lifestyle. For example, American sitcoms tend to portray people who are quite rich by US standards. Some foreigners are seduced by this false picture of what an "average" American family lives like, and so they admire the US.

The rest of us do not buy this bull. We know that a large proportion of Americans live in shocking poverty. The average working class American is far worse off than the average working class Canadian, Australian, New Zealander or Swede. Some parts of the USA rival third world living conditions. You won't find that where I am from.

Frankly, a lot of us wonder how on earth your people put up with such a ridiculously inefficient social system. Many of us have concluded that you're brainwashed idiots.

Perhaps we are wrong, but electing Bush again didn't exactly help.

I'm sorry we are not privy to living in Utopia.;)

Maybe this is a case of "my sister may be ugly, but only I can say so" but yours is the kind of arrogant statement that makes many Americans turn into themselves. Every country has its poor, its uneducated and brow-beaten, even Canada. There are political, economic, and social complexities which create America's poor, but I've seen wretchedness in every country I've had the opportunity to visit, so let's stop pretending that Canada, Australia, etc. are cities on the hill, perfect in their handling of their own poor, while Americans can't drag themselves out of the mud.

Not to pick on Canada, but according to this article (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/05/22/unreport-canada.html), a UN report describes a failure for the Canadian system to care for many of the disadvantaged. From the quoted report:

… poverty rates remain very high among disadvantaged and marginalized individuals and groups such as Aboriginal peoples, African-Canadians, immigrants, persons with disabilities, youth, low-income women and single mothers.

[obeygiant]

And many of them were simply sold to the Americans at $5,000 apiece. So, what are you saying? :confused:

Sold? How so?

[hulugu]

Sold? How so?

Sold is inaccurate, rather US troops may have paid a bounty for possible 'terrorists' in the amount of $5,000 US dollars.

One of those who have bought this charge is Jamal Kiyemba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Abdullah).

I'm trying to find an original source, but this is part of the Center for Constitutional Rights' case against the US government. The Associated Press may have mentioned this in 2005 however I cannot find the original article which is often referenced as part of FOI lawsuit.

The US may have paid the bounty and this bounty would have been used by various Afghan warlords as a convenient way to make money and settle old scores.

[skunk]

The US may have paid the bounty and this bounty would have been used by various Afghan warlords as a convenient way to make money and settle old scores.Like I said, then: "sold". :cool: Many of these people were just strangers from out of town, people who owed money or favours, rivals, etc. Most of them had absolutely nothing to do with terrorism, as far as we know.

[solvs]

No, just a citizen that believes in the Constitution.
I actually meant you must be new to the Political Forum. ;) And you must be if you're believe in the Constitution but aren't angry at what the current administration is doing. Take a peek around. It ain't great.

The reason our own citizens hate this country is because they are too lazy to better themshelves.
I'm doing great actually. Of my own doing. And I'd like to keep it that way. Did you ever think that many of us may have legitimate reasons to be a little disgruntled? Because we do.

Sold? How so?
Not a knock on you, but I wonder how many people who support Gitmo and the like actually know how most of it's prisoners got there? And how they're really treated. Kinda hurts that whole "but they're terrorists, so they don't deserve rights" thing.

If that was even the way things worked, because it isn't. That's not the way the Constitution nor the Geneva Convention works. Everyone has rights, or no one does. Too much potential for abuse, among other things. Not to mention the fact that we lose the moral high ground if our troops are kidnapped.

[Agathon]

I'm sorry we are not privy to living in Utopia.;)

Maybe this is a case of "my sister may be ugly, but only I can say so" but yours is the kind of arrogant statement that makes many Americans turn into themselves. Every country has its poor, its uneducated and brow-beaten, even Canada. There are political, economic, and social complexities which create America's poor, but I've seen wretchedness in every country I've had the opportunity to visit, so let's stop pretending that Canada, Australia, etc. are cities on the hill, perfect in their handling of their own poor, while Americans can't drag themselves out of the mud.

Except it's true, and there is an obvious cause. Other societies do not have a phobia of letting the central government solve problems that it is best placed to solve (like health care). Hence, these societies are much more efficient than the US.

How else to explain that Americans spend far more than others on health care (as a total sum, and even on the limited public healthcare they have) and get worse results (the fact that many Americans refuse to believe this documented truth is testament to their inability to grasp the extent of the incompetence).

The only reasonable answer is that your country is run by idiots. Many Americans seem to agree, but can't seem to get off their asses to throw the idiots out and elect a proper government. Who's the idiot in that case?

Not to pick on Canada, but according to this article (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/05/22/unreport-canada.html), a UN report describes a failure for the Canadian system to care for many of the disadvantaged. From the quoted report:

Absolutely. Canada is not a utopia, but it is a hell of a lot better than the US. I travelled between both myself. I never saw poverty elsewhere like I did in the US, even in Britain during the late Thatcher years (when things were bad there).

[solvs]

Who's the idiot in that case?

We're not all idiots. Most of us are just lazy. And our leaders are more corrupt than stupid.

Yeah, even him.

[Dane D.]

Except it's true, and there is an obvious cause. Other societies do not have a phobia of letting the central government solve problems that it is best placed to solve (like health care). Hence, these societies are much more efficient than the US.

How else to explain that Americans spend far more than others on health care (as a total sum, and even on the limited public healthcare they have) and get worse results (the fact that many Americans refuse to believe this documented truth is testament to their inability to grasp the extent of the incompetence).

The only reasonable answer is that your country is run by idiots. Many Americans seem to agree, but can't seem to get off their asses to throw the idiots out and elect a proper government. Who's the idiot in that case?



Absolutely. Canada is not a utopia, but it is a hell of a lot better than the US. I travelled between both myself. I never saw poverty elsewhere like I did in the US, even in Britain during the late Thatcher years (when things were bad there).
That's it, central government is not the answer. How much do you pay in taxes to this central government? Are you willing to allow government to dictate your life? Whats sad about America is our education system is terrible. It does not teach students how to think, to solve problems, to know history or even a understanding of how government works. Hence for the last 40+ years, education here has become a joke. America is full of lazy, ignorant, people who don't vote. These non-voters are looking to government to hand them money. Ever watch the Tonight Show, Jay Walking segment? That's scary, people here are clueless.

I also think our society has become in disarray because of the ease at which one can divorce here. It leaves the children in non-traditional families, where they growup without parental guidance. Just look at certain segments of our society.

[takao]

well the last years were quite a blow to the international reputation of the USA especially over the long term since a whole generation (current 15 to 29) is coming of age which looks at the US as something bad

sure not a problem now but some day that generation will be 30-40 and going into political positions and then all the unilaterallity/foreign policies will come around


also i don't buy into the thing with anti americanism being something french.. especially with being traced into the 18th century .. after all the USA was highly popular for a long time in the 20th century not even the ww1 and ww2 propaganda changed much there
on the other side the cold war period and it's meddling with other countries affairs here and there
while there was the "evil soviet union" it was tolerated by more but now since that is gone and the US continues with it's often short time policies disagreement of course rises

[skunk]

I also think our society has become in disarray because of the ease at which one can divorce here. It leaves the children in non-traditional families, where they growup without parental guidance. Just look at certain segments of our society.I suppose it never crossed your mind that those doing the divorcing are themselves the children of your "traditional families:", which doesn't say a lot for the benign influence of that particular model, does it?

[takao]

I also think our society has become in disarray because of the ease at which one can divorce here. It leaves the children in non-traditional families, where they growup without parental guidance. Just look at certain segments of our society.

what it has to do with the current discussion is beyond me .. after all the situation is no different than elsewhere in the world

[princealfie]

That's it, central government is not the answer. How much do you pay in taxes to this central government? Are you willing to allow government to dictate your life? Whats sad about America is our education system is terrible. It does not teach students how to think, to solve problems, to know history or even a understanding of how government works. Hence for the last 40+ years, education here has become a joke. America is full of lazy, ignorant, people who don't vote. These non-voters are looking to government to hand them money. Ever watch the Tonight Show, Jay Walking segment? That's scary, people here are clueless.

I also think our society has become in disarray because of the ease at which one can divorce here. It leaves the children in non-traditional families, where they growup without parental guidance. Just look at certain segments of our society.

That's why I stick to dating Russian women :D

[sushi]

The most anyone should make is $1,000,000/year. If you can't survive on that, then sorry buster.
But who are you to dictate what others can earn and live on?

While I understand where you are coming from, limits cannot be set. The very idea of capitalism is the freedom to earn what you can via your own legitimate business practices. The beauty of capitalism and a free economy is that you can be a master of your destiny with regards to wealth.

[princealfie]

But who are you to dictate what others can earn and live on?

While I understand where you are coming from, limits cannot be set. The very idea of capitalism is the freedom to earn what you can via your own legitimate business practices. The beauty of capitalism and a free economy is that you can be a master of your destiny with regards to wealth.

But the problem is when 80% of the >$1,000,000 earners probably got it through laundering, arms dealing, and other knickknacks which they rewrote the laws to make legal. :p :p :p :p :p

[solvs]

Are you willing to allow government to dictate your life?
I don't like it when Democrats try to do that just as I don't like it when Republicans do. But gov is supposed to do what the people cannot do for themselves. If that means protecting us from unscrupulous business practices, so be it. Obviously, most of us don't like overkill. We don't want to be taxed to death for more bureaucracy, and we don't want gov working too hard to protect us from ourselves when we don't really need it, but we don't like it when people with money think they're above the law and can get away with anything they want either. Some gov intervention is required. Just looking at how things were before the Depression, or in some other countries where the rich are the ruling class, shows us that that's not the best idea. Even nowadays, with the Ford CEO fiasco, Enron, the tainted pet food, etc. Or Halliburton winning no bid contracts, just so they can overcharge us for tainted food and who knows what else. Things can get even worse from there.

Silly me, I'd rather gov focus on stuff like that than telling people who they should marry, what they can do with their bodies, and torturing people without giving them trials in the name of justice. And considering the fact that the deficit is going even higher while funding for desperately needed social programs, even the ones that are working, continue to get cuts, I'd rather get something for the taxes I do pay. Bridges to nowhere so politicians can get even more kickbacks don't count. Fining companies that do illegal things like that mining company that got a ton of warnings, but the gov did nothing, and yet everyone was shocked when there was a cave in trapping and killing all the minors or when MS abuses it's monopoly would be a good start. Tax credits for companies working to be more environmentally friendly works too.

[Agathon]

That's it, central government is not the answer. How much do you pay in taxes to this central government? Are you willing to allow government to dictate your life? Whats sad about America is our education system is terrible. It does not teach students how to think, to solve problems, to know history or even a understanding of how government works. Hence for the last 40+ years, education here has become a joke. America is full of lazy, ignorant, people who don't vote. These non-voters are looking to government to hand them money. Ever watch the Tonight Show, Jay Walking segment? That's scary, people here are clueless.

I also think our society has become in disarray because of the ease at which one can divorce here. It leaves the children in non-traditional families, where they growup without parental guidance. Just look at certain segments of our society.

Paying taxes to a central government to provide services that it is proven to provide better than market based solutions is not the same thing as letting the government "run my life".

And where I'm from, we get to throw them out every three years if they don't do what we like.

You'd be surprised at what real electoral accountability can accomplish.

And... from a right wing point of view: isn't it a ridiculous and inefficient waste of time and resources for corporations to be responsible for people's pensions and healthcare?