Apple Delays Leopard Release

[CoreWeb]

Vista is a major rewrite. Not a total rewrite, but then again it didn't need to be like OS X did.

Think about it... total replacement/update of the following:
Printing subsystem, display subsystem (DWM),
graphics subsystem (DX10, DX9L), Media subsystem (Media Foundation), Audio (Core Audio), Media Center, Networking, brand new Explorer, new search system, new IIS7, system-wide RSS, new color system, new image codec system, new backup system, new memory subsystem, new speech system, text rendering, encryption, UAC, slideshow, .NET 3.0, new power system, clickonce, WIM, Powershell (not technically in Vista but released at the same time), Hypervisor/virtualization, 64-bit.

On the surface the improvements are minor but under the hood they are huge.

Most of those aren't rewrites. A lot are completely separate products which were BUNDLED with Vista. Those can't count. IE7, for instance, has only minor improvements, and (at least on XP systems) has a tremendously slower GUI. .NET 3.0 is also a bundled feature (though it is integrated somewhat into Vista.) There was a 64-bit version of XP, so that is not a new feature. DX10 is simply another update to DirectX.

XP -> Vista is perhaps like Panther -> Tiger (though the end result is still less than Tiger). Vista was SUPPOSED to be somewhere between that and OS9->OSX. But they had to cancel that. Now it is supposedly Vienna which will do that.

[Vidd]

once you have your computer with tiger set up the way you like it, you can easily upgrade to leopard in under 30 minutes.

there is so much bitching by people who do not seem to know what they are talking about.
It mightn't seem a lot to upgrade later but it would also involve the new iLife too.
Look at this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Vidd/Upgradeprice.png
Instead you could have:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Vidd/Upgradeprice2.png
or
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Vidd/Upgradeprice3.png
or Applecare.

It seems a bit crap to buy a computer and then have to pay that to upgrade.
You're already laying down £1000, for example.

[Lovesong]

I think I figured out what is wrong with this picture... he's typing memos on an OS that won't be out for 6 months!!! :mad:

[glennyboiwpg]

Yeah I know there have been a 1000 people who have done this before me, but I gotta do it.

Apple has dropped the ball on this one. Leopard should have been released a month after vista. I'm a programmer and I know "quality over quantity", yeah yeah I know, lets wait for a stable release, yeah yeah...

But the truth is? From a marketing perspective? They screwed up BIG time.

They had momentium. But their momentium train is losing steam.

And another thing? Get rid of those ********* commericals making fun of windows, when you can't get your own product out the door on time!

Apple's been throwing stones in their glass IHouses for a while now....

Put your products where your mouth is apple!

[Val-kyrie]

This actually puts things in a better position for me. I'm looking into buying a MBP and by the time Leopard arrives the MBP's surely should have been refreshed and equipped with the Q3 release of Penryn.

Do you have a link? Last I heard, Penryn was not going to be shipped en mass until Q4 '07/Q1 '08.

[erockerboy]

Man.... I cannot believe some of the grousing on this thread. Waah, waah, waah. You would think Steve Jobs had reneged on a blood oath to his dying grandmother or something. To all the hyperventilating geeks out there: TAKE A CHILL PILL. Tiger is still the best OS on the planet. Period. Vista can't hold a candle - and anyone who thinks otherwise is speaking out of sheer ignorance. (As someone who's lived extensively with Vista on multiple machines since its release, I can speak authoritatively on this. Trust me - once you get over the "shiny factor", Vista is a far cry from ready for prime time. Tiger is the superior product, hands down.)

And you know what else? The iPhone will be GOOD FOR APPLE - and hence, good for the Mac platform. I'm sure all of the loudest whiners on this thread were still crapping their diapers back in the dark days of the Gil Amelio era, and may not appreciate the depths from which the modern-day Apple Inc has risen. It was a decade ago this quarter, Q2 1997, when Apple's stock was at a 12-year low and Apple's cash losses were in the hundreds of millions. Remember that? No? Remember Michael Dell spitting on Apple's grave? Look where Apple is today - hugely profitable, media darling, stock on a tear - and ask yourself: is it possible that maybe, just maybe, Steve Jobs knows what the heck he's doing?

If Apple can catalyze even a fraction of the advance iPhone buzz into actual unit sales - it will be the best thing that has ever happened to the Mac. The Mac will never go away so long as Apple is viable, and if the iPhone contributes - which it will, massively - to the success and longevity of Apple, it will be a HUGE WIN for the Mac platform. Rest assured, the best days of the Mac are still ahead.

So relax, roll a fatty, raise a glass, take a bubble bath, download some more Eva Longoria pics, whatever does it for ya. Life on the Mac is great today - and tomorrow will be even better.

Word.

[woldham]

:confused: I waited to buy my 17" MacBook Pro because of 10.5, then decided to wait no more and bought it two weeks ago, glad I did now since I waited about 2 months before just going for the Pro.... Next up, the Mac Pro 8 Core is on my list of must have hardware.... :D

[thefnshow]

now you know how some of us windows users feel when our os gets delayed...i'm still pissed off about no WinFs...but i'll live...always thought if they had better marketing they'd have more market share...it's like a 6 year old is in charge of those commercials.

[Wie Gehts]

Leopard? I'm still waiting for Rhapsody that SJ promised.

[hoop]

This thread is absolutely hilarious.

It's a few months delay for an OS. That's all. Apple aren't going to be moving away from home computing, they're simply branching out, and it's exciting to watch. It makes completely sense to create digital devices such as music players and phones, because these extensions of home computnig is the way things are going. An iPhone will be a portable extension of OSX, and the only people who aren't eager to see where this will take us are those pissed off because their status as part of an elite computer club is rapidly fading away. Face it, everybody knows who Apple are now. They're in a prime position to take over and create new markets using the 'i' brand. They're a company, they're going to do it to make money, and no amount of crying into your precious white keyboards will change this.

I just can't wait to sync up iCal, iTunes, iPhoto and who knows what else with my phone, take it to work and swap some files around, get my hands on a touchscreen iPod/iMac and manipulate media directly, and who knows what else. If we want to see these technologies tamed and mastered, injected into our existing perception of a computer system, then let Apple experiement with them, let them try and push their ideas forward so we can see what they've got waiting for us in the future.

But please stop bitching about a bloody OS not being about for 90 days of whatever.

[rktheac]

Interesting to see so many fairweather fans coming out of the woodwork. I'd say the vast majority of the posters here (including myself) have no clue whatsoever on the reasons behind the delay, and yet you (excluding myself) profess to know and declare them. How ingenious of you. I heard Enderle is hiring.

And those who waited, and have said they'll be forced to wait longer to switch/buy/upgrade? While there may be legitimate reasons, simply waiting because you want the new OS is silly. Instead of being productive NOW, you'd rather wait, which really means that you had no real reason to buy/upgrade, other than simply to get the next new thing. Now, I suppose there's nothing wrong with desiring the next new thing, but whining about a delay, and especially being adamant about the demise of Apple is, in my humble opinion, silly.

I am disappointed of the delay, but it's not the end of the world. My 2.33GHz C2D MBP with Tiger is letting me do things faster than my old 1.67GHz PB...with Tiger.

[Zukum]

Can a respected MR veteran who has an objective view and some spare time please read all of these 1000+ posts and do a summary of the best ideas and points?

[Jim Campbell]

... back in the dark days of the Gil Amelio era, and may not appreciate the depths from which the modern-day Apple Inc has risen. It was a decade ago this quarter, Q2 1997, when Apple's stock was at a 12-year low and Apple's cash losses were in the hundreds of millions. Remember that?

Actually, I'd pretty successfully blotted that from my mind, but now ...

Oh, God! The horror! The horror! I'm having System 7.5.3 flashbacks.

Sytem 7.5.3: 29 minutes without a crash and count - skrrreeeeeeeee*CRASH!

System 7.5.3: 1 minute without a crash and counting ...

And Quark Xpress 3.31. They don't make 'em like that any more.

Cheers!

Jim

[xli_ne]

Well, there IS a difference in being few months late (Leopard), as opposed of being over three years late AND with reduced feature-set (Vista)....

If someone is 45 min. late to work, the person that was 15 min. late to work still can't say too much.

This lil phone of theirs better blow people's minds.

[shawnce]

Can a respected MR veteran who has an objective view and some spare time please read all of these 1000+ posts and do a summary of the best ideas and points?

LOL I suggest you just ignore this thread and in a few years time come back and laugh with folks about it.

[Yvan256]

What the hell Apple. Dont turn into microsoft and delay and delay and delay!!!

Actually, Microsoft not only had huge delays in delivering Vista, they also removed a lot of what should have made Vista a decent upgrade. When Apple delays something they're more like Nintendo. They try to take the time needed to deliver a quality product. I may not like the fact that Metroid Prime 3 has been delayed, but I'd rather play it later then play a bugged version right now.

However, that still doesn't excuse anything. I know that putting more people in both teams (OS X and Apple iPhone) probably won't fix the problem, however they should have prepared for this. At last the "Apple is delaying their computers with their toys" crowd is finally right. :rolleyes:

Add to that the iLife '07 delay, which of course is tied to the Leopard release, the lack of Core 2 Duo for the Mac mini, and it's beginning to look like I won't be upgrading my Mac mini until early 2008. :(

edit: wow, already 41 pages of comments.

[guzhogi]

Yeah I know there have been a 1000 people who have done this before me, but I gotta do it.

Apple has dropped the ball on this one. Leopard should have been released a month after vista. I'm a programmer and I know "quality over quantity", yeah yeah I know, lets wait for a stable release, yeah yeah...

But the truth is? From a marketing perspective? They screwed up BIG time.

They had momentium. But their momentium train is losing steam.

And another thing? Get rid of those ********* commericals making fun of windows, when you can't get your own product out the door on time!

Apple's been throwing stones in their glass IHouses for a while now....

Put your products where your mouth is apple!

I agree. While I like that Apple wants to release a quality product, I think they have too many major projects going. With this and the iPhone, there aren't enough people to work on both at the same time.

Another problem I've noticed is people in the US are so used to having instant results, if there's a delay they complain and complain, but don't do anything about it. My sister visited Spain over June/July. When she came back, she said the people there are a lot more relaxed there than in the US. If something doesn't work, they're like "Oh, it doesn't work. Meh." Loosen up America! Besides, what's wrong w/ Tiger? I didn't hear any complaint when it came out (other than a few bugs here and there). Why can't people be happy with what they have and not live for new features every few months they probably will never use?

[Yvan256]

If someone is 45 min. late to work, the person that was 15 min. late to work still can't say too much.

This lil phone of theirs better blow people's minds.

Except that in this case, the person who is 15 minutes late took the time to shower, eat breakfast, dress up properly and has his reports ready and in full color pages to go along his Keynote presentation.

The person who is 45 minutes late haven't showered in days, is wearing training clothes because his suit is at the cleaners (and it's been ready since last week, he just didn't have the time to pick it up yet), didn't have time to eat breakfast, and has no Powerpoint presentation to go with his black and white bullet list "tech specs" sheet. ;)

So yes, they are both late, but one of them is ready.

As for being unhappy about the delay for Leopard, it's because it's tied to my "replace my Mac mini G4/Tiger/iLife'06 with a Mac mini Core 2 Duo/Leopard/iLife'07" plan. not because Tiger isn't good enough.

[nemaslov]

sell stock fast

That's a stupid suggestion. Even if you have Apple stock you should hold onm. Even if it dips now it will be huge at the end of the year and into next with everything out.

[nemaslov]

.

[05elstonc]

Very few people have discussed the fact that Apple will demonstrate a feature complete version of Leopard at WWDC. Apple is not going to be silent about Leopard until October, they are actually going to be giving a Beta copy to all in attendance! This is fantastic news! Core Animation is going to be everywhere in the UI and in iLife, this will give 3rd party developers some time to implement some of the new UI conventions into their own app and ship their Leopard only version in October. Because of Core Animation and a few other new API's most new Apps will be Leopard only, therefore developers need to be on board and the OS needs to be stable out of the gate. It is better that Apple has gotten the bad news out of the way now, rather than surprise us at WWDC with a new demo of leopard and a shipping date of October.

[dmelgar]

We now know atleast one thing: Mac OS X isn't the first on Apple's priority list.

As a company, this is inevitable.

However, I don't have to understand the company.
As a Mac user, I'm saddened by it.

This is a classic business MISTAKE.
One of the hardest things a company can do is try and grow. Growing quickly is often too much for a company to handle.

Apple is admitting that they've over extended themselves. They have what use to just be a computer hardware and software company expanding into dramatically different markets, iPod hardware and software, televisions, and now telephone hardware and software. One company can't do it all. Sounds like Jobs likes keeping everything in house. Thats not practical either. They're trying to update and maintain Mac OS X, iLife, a bevy of other applications, deal with supporting PPC and Intel platforms. Come up with new hardware. iTunes, new subscription models.

The point is they are doing many things. They are starting to spread themselves too thin and they admit they can't handle it.

Companies do this because they see big dollar signs on the horizon... if only we get 1% of some huge market place, thats huge money. The risk is that they reach too far and fail in all their endevors. If they delay Leopard, and they delay new Mac models to concentrate on iPhone, if iPhone flops which is likely given the history of competitors, they will have squandered an chance to gain share on Microsoft and may loose that market as well. No one wants to buy a computer to lock into something they think will go away in a few years. With the success of iPod and Mac OS X, customers have been flocking to the new platform. But if they loose confidence in that platform or if they get the impression that Apple is no longer investing in that platform, they will bail quickly back to Microsoft.

[dizastor]

Man.... I cannot believe some of the grousing on this thread. Waah, waah, waah. You would think Steve Jobs had reneged on a blood oath to his dying grandmother or something. To all the hyperventilating geeks out there: TAKE A CHILL PILL. Tiger is still the best OS on the planet. Period. Vista can't hold a candle - and anyone who thinks otherwise is speaking out of sheer ignorance. (As someone who's lived extensively with Vista on multiple machines since its release, I can speak authoritatively on this. Trust me - once you get over the "shiny factor", Vista is a far cry from ready for prime time. Tiger is the superior product, hands down.)

And you know what else? The iPhone will be GOOD FOR APPLE - and hence, good for the Mac platform. I'm sure all of the loudest whiners on this thread were still crapping their diapers back in the dark days of the Gil Amelio era, and may not appreciate the depths from which the modern-day Apple Inc has risen. It was a decade ago this quarter, Q2 1997, when Apple's stock was at a 12-year low and Apple's cash losses were in the hundreds of millions. Remember that? No? Remember Michael Dell spitting on Apple's grave? Look where Apple is today - hugely profitable, media darling, stock on a tear - and ask yourself: is it possible that maybe, just maybe, Steve Jobs knows what the heck he's doing?

If Apple can catalyze even a fraction of the advance iPhone buzz into actual unit sales - it will be the best thing that has ever happened to the Mac. The Mac will never go away so long as Apple is viable, and if the iPhone contributes - which it will, massively - to the success and longevity of Apple, it will be a HUGE WIN for the Mac platform. Rest assured, the best days of the Mac are still ahead.

So relax, roll a fatty, raise a glass, take a bubble bath, download some more Eva Longoria pics, whatever does it for ya. Life on the Mac is great today - and tomorrow will be even better.

Word.

Amen

[Peace]

Can a respected MR veteran who has an objective view and some spare time please read all of these 1000+ posts and do a summary of the best ideas and points?


They could but MacRumors have shifted them over to the iPhone discussion to get it more readable.So this discussion will remain a load of crap until October.So sorry.

:p

[zub3qin]

Very few people have discussed the fact that Apple will demonstrate a feature complete version of Leopard at WWDC. Apple is not going to be silent about Leopard until October, they are actually going to be giving a Beta copy to all in attendance! This is fantastic news! Core Animation is going to be everywhere in the UI and in iLife, this will give 3rd party developers some time to implement some of the new UI conventions into their own app and ship their Leopard only version in October. Because of Core Animation and a few other new API's most new Apps will be Leopard only, therefore developers need to be on board and the OS needs to be stable out of the gate. It is better that Apple has gotten the bad news out of the way now, rather than surprise us at WWDC with a new demo of leopard and a shipping date of October.

Let me correct you.
Apple "PLANS" on demonstrating a feature complete Leopard at WWDC.
This is even less of a reliable statement than "Apple WILL be releasing Leopard in Spring '07"

[Veritas&Equitas]

The number of Apple apologists is sickening on this thread.

"Oh don't worry, Vista was 2 years late, Leopard is only a few months."
"Steve knows what he's doing, this will only be good for Apple."
"If they iron the kinks out now, Leopard will be that much better in October!"

Are you guys serious? This is the typical blind fanboyism that all PC users HATE about Mac users. Bottom line:

1. Steve changed priorities with Apple; no longer Apple Computers, taking all of the best programmers and putting them on an unproven technology while mostly ignoring their promise and most loyal users.

2. With the "Leopard will now even be greater in October because they are working on all the bugs now!" argument, that is total crap. Why not wait until next year to release it then, because in 2008 I'm SURE every single detail will be ironed out, maybe with a few problems. In that mindset, why not wait 'til 2009? Nothing could be wrong with it then!

So many people here are so blindly following Apple that they try to rationalize this news and criticize those who question it. People 'round these parts have to open their eyes.

[GamecockMac]

And, let's make sure there are no hypocrites here. Everyone that have MS crap about Vista being delayed should now do the same for Apple.

Comments like this (and commenters like the one immediately above) are a complete joke.

Vista was delayed for YEARS, Leopard is going to be delayed for 4 months. Oooooh.

Now I'm not saying I'm thrilled by the news, but let's not all overreact at once. Fact of the matter is, iPhone is currently far more important to Apple from an image/PR point of view, and they must deliver on time. They didn't show off Leopard earlier this year did they? They didn't run ads for Leopard during the Oscars did they? And is anyone else simply floundering on their Macs running 10.4.9? I didn't think so.

Come in off the ledges, take a deep breath, and calm down.

[McGarvels]

The number of Apple apologists is sickening on this thread.

"Oh don't worry, Vista was 2 years late, Leopard is only a few months."
"Steve knows what he's doing, this will only be good for Apple."
"If they iron the kinks out now, Leopard will be that much better in October!"

Are you guys serious? This is the typical blind fanboyism that all PC users HATE about Mac users. Bottom line:

1. Steve changed priorities with Apple; no longer Apple Computers, taking all of the best programmers and putting them on an unproven technology while mostly ignoring their promise and most loyal users.

2. With the "Leopard will now even be greater in October because they are working on all the bugs now!" argument, that is total crap. Why not wait until next year to release it then, because in 2008 I'm SURE every single detail will be ironed out, maybe with a few problems. In that mindset, why not wait 'til 2009? Nothing could be wrong with it then!

So many people here are so blindly following Apple that they try to rationalize this news and criticize those who question it. People 'round these parts have to open their eyes.

Amen.

[Counter]

Who needs an OS when you can have this? (http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=indexhero20070109yr1.jpg)

Only a handful of people for sure.

It's a widescreen iPod!

A revolutionary phone!

And a breakthrough internet device!

But wait....these aren't separate products. This is one product!

:D

[GanleyBurger]

.

Okay, Multimedia...

When is the next hardware release?

Prediction. Drumroll please.....:eek:

Do we get Santa Rosa by June... or is it all out the window till October?

[GanleyBurger]

Who needs an OS when you can have this? (http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=indexhero20070109yr1.jpg)

Only a handful of people for sure.

It's a widescreen iPod!

A revolutionary phone!

And a breakthrough internet device!

But wait....these aren't separate products. This is one product!

:D

Perhaps I can run my PROTOOLS sessions on it. There is going to be an 800 FW port???:eek: Cool.

[Counter]

The number of Apple apologists is sickening on this thread.

"Oh don't worry, Vista was 2 years late, Leopard is only a few months."
"Steve knows what he's doing, this will only be good for Apple."
"If they iron the kinks out now, Leopard will be that much better in October!"

Are you guys serious? This is the typical blind fanboyism that all PC users HATE about Mac users. Bottom line:

1. Steve changed priorities with Apple; no longer Apple Computers, taking all of the best programmers and putting them on an unproven technology while mostly ignoring their promise and most loyal users.

2. With the "Leopard will now even be greater in October because they are working on all the bugs now!" argument, that is total crap. Why not wait until next year to release it then, because in 2008 I'm SURE every single detail will be ironed out, maybe with a few problems. In that mindset, why not wait 'til 2009? Nothing could be wrong with it then!

So many people here are so blindly following Apple that they try to rationalize this news and criticize those who question it. People 'round these parts have to open their eyes.

Best post yet.

I'm a huge Apple fan but also an Apple critic. As much as I like them, I couldn't imagine following them like a sheep with an Apple logo stamped on me. Fanboys = drones.

[BuzWeaver]

So, Apple is human after all. ;)

[GamecockMac]

Best post yet.

Wrong.

[Veritas&Equitas]

Wrong.
Great post. Quite insightful. Look forward to more of your work.

[Stella]

I can't believe how people are taking this so seriously!

Its only an OS! There is vastly more to life than a OS - unless your a spotty nerd sitting at a computer 24/7!

[Jaqen]

I fail to see why people want Leopard so bad! Sure, it'll be cool and nice to have but there's nothing to it that's absolutely stellar that makes it hard to wait for. There isn't much more worthwhile you'll be able to do with Leopard that you can't do with Tiger. Just what exactly is the problem? It's not like we're waiting for something FUN like umm... Super Mario Galaxy/Smash Bros. Now those games, I can't wait for. :D I know there's at least one feature of Leopard that's retarded, which is time machine. When you delete something, it should stay deleted. I know I'll have that disabled. I think time machine is about the dumbest idea ever.

I'll definitely be purchasing Leopard when it comes out, but it's not anything special that I can't wait for.

[Willis]

ahhhhh..... pants...

well, that sucks. =/

[wizzerandchips]

Great post. Quite insightful. Look forward to more of your work.


so I take it you wont be buying an iphone then ?

[Veritas&Equitas]

so I take it you wont be buying an iphone then ?
Quite right, I'm not going close to it. Cingular, for 2 years? Are you serious?

"Never drop a call"?

The only reason they never drop a call is because you never have service in the first place to GET the call...and I'm in a Metro area with 2.4 million people. Switched to Verizon, never going back, especially not for a phone that won't be able to make phone calls.

[Joseph Duchesne]

Why is everyone so worked up? I was just like:
"Oh crap. Well, that sucked."
Life goes on. This will give me all summer to earn enough money to get a new Mac...
Sure, part of me says that I want the new OS ASAP, but the developer side of me says "20% of your code isn't even UB net, who needs another change."

I will however be interested in the new features and also how well the iPhone does.

Now, please get this straight:
10.5 being a bit late: sucks, but doesn't change much of anything right now
Something like PhotoShopCS3 being late: my hell on earth of photoshop slowness would have continued for months

Do you see my logic?

[Vidd]

Something like PhotoShopCS3 being late: my hell on earth of photoshop slowness would have continued for months

Do you see my logic?

That's a good reason to be angry about something being late but the point with a lot of people is that they've put off replacing older/slower systems and so it's bascially the same situation.
June seemed to be breaking point for a lot of people who saw it as a software/hardware tie-in rather than an updated OS.

[HailToTheVictor]

Apple has announced a 'special event' for the media, and everyone expects the release of Leopard. Steve walks out on stage for the presentation and remarks how far the iphone has brought the company over the last couple months, and predicts the sale of an additional 2.5 million units. As a result of the tremendous success, Apple Inc. has decided to release new versions of the iphone in time for the holiday shopping season. Unfourtantly, members of the Leopard team have had to remain on the iphone project for longer than expected, subsequently Leopard is not yet ready for the public. Steve smiles and says "See you at MWSF, we'll have it ready by then, I swear," and then walks off stage. The media loves the announcement and praises Apple Inc. for realizing the market demand of the iphone by teenagers accross America. Soon after 100 page threads appear on MRs, but alas, Leopard is only 7 months behind now, not 2 or 4 years, or whatever amount of time Vista was.

Here's to October :)

[Eric5h5]

Get rid of those ********* commericals making fun of windows, when you can't get your own product out the door on time!

Sure, because somehow the various problems with Windows disappear if an Apple product is delayed? Like that makes any sense.... :rolleyes:

Can a respected MR veteran who has an objective view and some spare time please read all of these 1000+ posts and do a summary of the best ideas and points?

I dunno, do I count? ;) I didn't read all the posts...but I did read a lot of them. Here's a summary:

1) A lot of whining.
2) Some not-too-bright comments trying to compare Leopard delays to Vista delays, as if there's no difference at all between 4 months and 4 years (with most of the major features, which would have justified such a delay, dropped).
3) Some more whining.
4) A bunch of stuff about how Apple doesn't care about Macs anymore.
5) The occasional rational comment.
6) Yet more whining.

I personally wouldn't try to justify the delay. I don't really trust anything that Apple says...but it's just not that big of a deal. As to the whole "Apple doesn't care about their computers anymore": welcome to the future. It's not Apple, it's the world. They have to start adapting ahead of time, or they'll be caught with outmoded product lines that don't sell, and then they will disappear. I prefer my Power Mac, and don't care about iPods/iPhones/iWhatevers, but at least--unlike most people--I can recognize that the world doesn't revolve around what I prefer.

--Eric

[benpatient]

I fail to see why people want Leopard so bad! Sure, it'll be cool and nice to have but there's nothing to it that's absolutely stellar that makes it hard to wait for. There isn't much more worthwhile you'll be able to do with Leopard that you can't do with Tiger. Just what exactly is the problem? It's not like we're waiting for something FUN like umm... Super Mario Galaxy/Smash Bros. Now those games, I can't wait for. :D I know there's at least one feature of Leopard that's retarded, which is time machine. When you delete something, it should stay deleted. I know I'll have that disabled. I think time machine is about the dumbest idea ever.

I'll definitely be purchasing Leopard when it comes out, but it's not anything special that I can't wait for.

I've tried every mac-based backup application i could find that i can afford (less than couple hundred bucks per user) and none of them are easy to use AND confidence inspiring.

Even with XP you had more options built in.

If Time Machine works as advertised, then that one feature is more important in my day-to-day schedule than any feature that has been put into OS X since 10.2.

Worthwhile Octo support could save me hours in "waiting time" each month.

Resolution independence would completely change the way I work.

meaningful, smart searching (boolean operators, anyone!?!?!?) on a system-wide basis, without using 3rd party apps that break with every point release would make Spotlight actually useful. As would system-wide metadata support beyond the current "spotlight comments" field. I should be able to tag every document of every type with a project ID number and have a smart folder that can store it all intelligently and dynamically. I just figured out that Vista can do this, and it ticks me off.

I've gotta say, I'm not surprised by this delay. Any time a company is calling late June "spring," I get suspicious. And for all the "vista was later" apologists, answer me this: Did MS ever make fun of Apple for being off schedule? Apple did so, loudly and often. To say that they had to concentrate on the iphone, pulling people off of OS X, is a lie.

[dmelgar]

The number of Apple apologists is sickening on this thread.

"Oh don't worry, Vista was 2 years late, Leopard is only a few months."
"Steve knows what he's doing, this will only be good for Apple."
"If they iron the kinks out now, Leopard will be that much better in October!"

Are you guys serious? This is the typical blind fanboyism that all PC users HATE about Mac users. Bottom line:

1. Steve changed priorities with Apple; no longer Apple Computers, taking all of the best programmers and putting them on an unproven technology while mostly ignoring their promise and most loyal users.

2. With the "Leopard will now even be greater in October because they are working on all the bugs now!" argument, that is total crap. Why not wait until next year to release it then, because in 2008 I'm SURE every single detail will be ironed out, maybe with a few problems. In that mindset, why not wait 'til 2009? Nothing could be wrong with it then!

So many people here are so blindly following Apple that they try to rationalize this news and criticize those who question it. People 'round these parts have to open their eyes.
Tell it like it is...

[StaphaTheBull]

That's a good reason to be angry about something being late but the point with a lot of people is that they've put off replacing older/slower systems and so it's bascially the same situation.
June seemed to be breaking point for a lot of people who saw it as a software/hardware tie-in rather than an updated OS.

That is the situation for me. I am bummed about the delay but more so because I want a hi res macbook pro. As I understand it, apple can't do the hi res screens until the resolution independence feature is in the OS. That doesn't come till leopard from what I understand.

I am a PC user that has been toying with switching for awhile. Vista finally has forced me to make the switch. The delay won't stop me from switching even if I have to wait for the hi res until october....unless microsoft comes up with something that magically makes vista an option but that is highly unlikely.

[mazola]

... they extended spring!

[dmelgar]

Apple has announced a 'special event' for the media, and everyone expects the release of Leopard. Steve walks out on stage for the presentation and remarks how far the iphone has brought the company over the last couple months, and predicts the sale of an additional 2.5 million units. As a result of the tremendous success, Apple Inc. has decided to release new versions of the iphone in time for the holiday shopping season. Unfourtantly, members of the Leopard team have had to remain on the iphone project for longer than expected, subsequently Leopard is not yet ready for the public. Steve smiles and says "See you at MWSF, we'll have it ready by then, I swear," and then walks off stage. The media loves the announcement and praises Apple Inc. for realizing the market demand of the iphone by teenagers accross America. Soon after 100 page threads appear on MRs, but alas, Leopard is only 7 months behind now, not 2 or 4 years, or whatever amount of time Vista was.

Here's to October :)
And the fanboys will talk of how this will make Leopard even better.
How this will make even more money for Apple because additional iPhone models will sell more than Leopard.

On and on until there no longer is a Mac. I could see Apple selling the computer hardware business to a Chinese company like IBM did, and either license or ditch the general purpose Mac OS X.

[Vidd]

That is the situation for me. I am bummed about the delay but more so because I want a hi res macbook pro. As I understand it, apple can't do the hi res screens until the resolution independence feature is in the OS. That doesn't come till leopard from what I understand.

This argument about delaying hardware updates to facilitate the OS delay keeps coming up.
I doubt Apple are going to keep everything they had planned for June/Summer in reserve.
If Windows users can do with 1920x1280 (?) screens without resolution independence, surely Mac users can for 4 months?

[StaphaTheBull]

This argument about delaying hardware updates to facilitate the OS delay keeps coming up.
I doubt Apple are going to keep everything they had planned for June/Summer in reserve.
If Windows users can do with 1920x1280 (?) screens without resolution independence, surely Mac users can for 4 months?

I hope you are right...if they do then I will buy my MBP regardless if Leopard is out or not...

[Eric5h5]

And for all the "vista was later" apologists, answer me this: Did MS ever make fun of Apple for being off schedule? Apple did so, loudly and often.

Did they? Seriously? Apple fans, sure, but I don't actually remember Apple themselves doing this. But maybe they did. And let me repeat, once more, that if Longhorn had been delayed by a few months or so, or even a year or so, nobody would have said much of anything. And it wasn't just the delay, which went on and on and on and on, it was the Big! Kewl! Features! that were supposed to make the whole thing revolutionary, but after all that they they just got dropped anyway.

To say that they had to concentrate on the iphone, pulling people off of OS X, is a lie.

Probably. Apple isn't exactly known for being straightforward and truthful. "Nobody cares about flash-based music players and we aren't going to make one...oh wait, look at this awesome new iPod Shuffle! Buy one! Ignore what I just said!" (Plenty more examples where that came from....)

--Eric

[ktlx]

Vista was delayed for YEARS, Leopard is going to be delayed for 4 months. Oooooh.
But Vista was delayed by years mostly in groups of monthly increments. However at this late in the game, I think this is more like Vista's final delay than the earlier ones.

If we're having this conversation in January 2008, then I think the complaints would carry more weight. And the analogy still wouldn't be accurate even then because Apple hasn't shed any publicly announced features yet.

My money is still on Apple having performance measures with AT&T/Cingular to deliver iPhone by a certain date and they were going to miss it and suffer a financial penalty, so Apple made a business decision. Unlike consumer electronics, normally telco equipment providers can't just deliver "whenever". There are financial penalties for missing key dates.

[dswoodley]

Anybody who expected anything other than a delay from Apple on Leopard needs a reality check. I am as bummed as anyone that it got pushed back - but come on! In all of the recent builds, Leopard is still plagued by bugs, no new special features. How on earth was that stuff gonna get fixed and worked out by June??? I think everyone knew deep down that this was going to happen. Everyone should know not to take Apple at their word - how many products did they delay in recent years? 15" alum PB, 3 ghz g5 chip, imac g5, AppleTV, on and on and on. Apple's statements mean absolutely nothing and everyonse should know it by know.

On the positive side, can I look forward to 10.4.10 in the near future????

[BGil]

Most of those aren't rewrites. A lot are completely separate products which were BUNDLED with Vista. Those can't count. IE7, for instance, has only minor improvements,


??? IE7 is a huge change (whether or not it's an improvement is debateable). IE 5.5 to IE 6 or 6.5 was minor. The move to IE7 was a bigger jump than any Safari, Firefox, or Opera release (since version 4). The Interface is completely changed, searching, tabs, Quicktabs, RSS, completely new rendering engine (doesn't even work with much of the old IE6 stuff), XPS built in, security, etc.

.NET 3.0 is also a bundled feature (though it is integrated somewhat into Vista.) .Net 3.0 is to Win32 what Cocoa is to Carbon. It's a completely new (well at least the WPF, WWF, and WCF part) way to build Windows apps.

There was a 64-bit version of XP, so that is not a new feature.
True enough.
DX10 is simply another update to DirectX.

No, it's a total rewrite of D3D.

XP -> Vista is perhaps like Panther -> Tiger (though the end result is still less than Tiger).
LOL. Panther to Tiger was a very very small update. Spotlight, Dashboard, Automator, CoreImage/Video... that's pretty much it.
Again, adding .NET 3.0 to the system was like adding Cocoa to the Mac OS. Then you got Microsoft's equivalent to Quartz/Quartz Extreme/Quartz2D (DWM), DisplayPDF (XPS), ColorSync, CoreAudio, FrontRow, Time Machine (Previous Docs), X11/terminal (Services For Unix/PowerShell), Exposé and CMD-TAB(Flip and Flip3D), Spotlight, Dashboard (Sidebar), new networking, Bonjour/Rendevous (People Near Me), Inkwell (Tablet), Voice Over, Speech Recognition, QT7 (WMP11), FileVault (EFS), AdressBook, New Finder, iCal (WinCal), iDVD (Win DVD Maker), iPhoto (Win Photo Gallery), IIS7 (Apache), OpenGL 2.0 (DX10), Unix permissions (UAC)...

Apple never added that much new stuff to any 10.x release and especially not from Panther to Tiger. 10.3 to 10.4 was more like Windows 2000 to Windows XP. XP to Vista is like 10.1 to 10.5. It only stops short of OS 9 to OS X because they didn't change kernels (although they did add one with 64-bit).

Vista was SUPPOSED to be somewhere between that and OS9->OSX. But they had to cancel that. Now it is supposedly Vienna which will do that.


Vienna is a minor release. Essientially Windows Vista R2 (Release 2) just like Windows Server 2003 has an R2 version. There's no reason for MS to ditch all the new underpinnings they just switched to. Hell, they only switched to the NT kernel (for consumers) 5 years ago. From what I've been told (from different sources than Thurrott), "Vienna" will be mostly the stuff they cut from Longhorn (WinFS etc.) and the interface stuff they didn't get around to building because WPF wasn't finished.

From Winsupersite:
Q: So is Vienna going to be a major Windows version?
A: No. Windows Vista was a major release, and Vienna will be a relatively minor, or interim, update. Microsoft is currently on a development path where every other Windows version is a major release.

Q: When will Vienna ship?
A: Microsoft currently plans to ship Vienna in 2009, about two to two and a half years after Vista. The next major release of Windows is expected two years after Vienna, in 2011. (Windows Server updates are on a similar cycle.)

Q: What features will be included in Windows Vienna?
A: Microsoft hasn't publicly committed to any features for Vienna and the company is currently still deciding what this next Windows release will look like. We do know a few things about Vienna, however: It will include a new version of Windows Explorer that is being built by the same team that designed the Ribbon user interface in Office 2007. It will likely include some form of the "Hypervisor" (Windows Virtualization) technologies that will ship shortly after Windows Server "Longhorn". It will also likely include the WinFS (Windows Future Storage) technologies, though they won't be packaged or branded as WinFS.

[wizzerandchips]

Quite right, I'm not going close to it. Cingular, for 2 years? Are you serious?

"Never drop a call"?

The only reason they never drop a call is because you never have service in the first place to GET the call...and I'm in a Metro area with 2.4 million people. Switched to Verizon, never going back, especially not for a phone that won't be able to make phone calls.

funny, for such a technologcial advanced country, how its so backward in mobile phone coverage, guess were just lucky in Europe, so on that note, YE HA for the iphone.

[Counter]

Why is everyone so worked up? I was just like:
"Oh crap. Well, that sucked."


Because an operating system being delayed by a phone fuels many existing lines of thought about where Apple is going.

[AutumnSkyline]

I don't even think I'm going to upgrade now. It even looks ugly. I don't want my os to look like ****....Apple.. why? :( I'm extremely disappointed. I want them to go back to selling just Macs and iPods. Stupid fu***** who really cares about a stupid phone? There's a reason why people have cell phones. To talk to each other just like with a regular telephone, you don't need fancy razzle-dazzle touch screen features that cost so much to make a good phone. I have some advice for Apple:

Sort
Out
Your
Priorities.

[BGil]

Probably. Apple isn't exactly known for being straightforward and truthful. "Nobody cares about flash-based music players and we aren't going to make one...oh wait, look at this awesome new iPod Shuffle! Buy one! Ignore what I just said!" (Plenty more examples where that came from....)

--Eric

So true. He said the same thing about portable video players and media centers too.

[Counter]

Wrong.

Wrong.

[Eric5h5]

I want them to go back to selling just Macs and iPods.

Aha, so you've accepted iPods then? At the time, it was "who cares about iPods, I just want Apple to sell Macs!" Change happens. Deal with it.

Stupid fu***** who really cares about a stupid phone? There's a reason why people have cell phones. To talk to each other just like with a regular telephone, you don't need fancy razzle-dazzle touch screen features that cost so much to make a good phone.

Yeah, and who cares about iPods? Overpriced MP3 players with no revolutionary features, nobody will buy one and Apple will go bankrupt! Why don't they sort out their priorities!

Panther to Tiger was a very very small update. Spotlight, Dashboard, Automator, CoreImage/Video... that's pretty much it.

Sure, as long as you ignore ALL the under-the-hood changes, of which there were many. You know, things like fine-grained kernel locking, real metadata support, etc. Here, read this (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars/1). "Very very small update"...ha....

--Eric

[Val-kyrie]

Very few people have discussed the fact that Apple will demonstrate a feature complete version of Leopard at WWDC. Apple is not going to be silent about Leopard until October, they are actually going to be giving a Beta copy to all in attendance! This is fantastic news! Core Animation is going to be everywhere in the UI and in iLife, this will give 3rd party developers some time to implement some of the new UI conventions into their own app and ship their Leopard only version in October. Because of Core Animation and a few other new API's most new Apps will be Leopard only, therefore developers need to be on board and the OS needs to be stable out of the gate. It is better that Apple has gotten the bad news out of the way now, rather than surprise us at WWDC with a new demo of leopard and a shipping date of October.

I thought Apple only "planned" to demonstrate "an almost-complete feature set." But perhaps I'm wrong. I will wait until Sep, 07, before I make any judgments about the (lack of) revelation of secret features.

Edit: MR reported only that "developers will be given a "near-final" beta copy of Leopard at the Worldwide Developers Conference in early June." This does not say anything about a complete feature set, so my judgment will be delayed until Sep., 07, as previously stated.

[BGil]

Sure, as long as you ignore ALL the under-the-hood changes, of which there were many. You know, things like fine-grained kernel locking, real metadata support, etc. Here, read this (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars/1). "Very very small update"...ha....

--Eric


Hate to break it to you but XP went through more (and bigger) "under-the-hood changes" in its lifetime than OS X did from Panther to Tiger. Several encrpytion updates (file system), all the SP2 security work, NUMA, .Net 1/1.1/2.0/3.0, IIS 6 (64-bit only), Windows Media 8 to 9, DX8.1 to DX9, speech/text recognition for Tablet, WoW (32-bit emulation on 64-bit systems) adding a new driver model for MCE and of course a brand new kernel with XP 64-bit and another semi-revamped kernel/userspace with XP embedded.

10.3 to 10.4 = Windows 2000 to XP (pre-SP1).

[dejo]

Probably. Apple isn't exactly known for being straightforward and truthful. "Nobody cares about flash-based music players and we aren't going to make one...oh wait, look at this awesome new iPod Shuffle! Buy one! Ignore what I just said!" (Plenty more examples where that came from....)
Way to totally misquote what Steve said about flash-based music players! :mad: I direct you to a previous post of mine where I lay it all out: http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=1161873&postcount=156

[iW00t]

this has to be the dumbest post in the thread. sorry, but you've got no clue. A G4 runs Tiger without problems. A Mac Pro or current laptop will run Tiger or Leopard without any problems. What are you on? :confused:

A current laptop will have a low resolution screen, because like you know, Apple does not give us the option to BTO laptops with different screen models.

[GamecockMac]

Great post. Quite insightful. Look forward to more of your work.

Why didn't you comment likewise to those responding to your inane post with the ever-insightful "Amen"?

Don't bother with the rhetorical, I think I already know. Could it be because they were agreeing with you? :rolleyes:

[iW00t]

Who needs an OS when you can have this? (http://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=indexhero20070109yr1.jpg)

Only a handful of people for sure.

It's a widescreen iPod!

A revolutionary phone!

And a breakthrough internet device!

But wait....these aren't separate products. This is one product!

:D

You can flush it down the toilet in a year when its batteries get worn out, or in 2-3 years when its non user replaceable flash memory goes bad.

Pfft.

[RRK]

funny, for such a technologcial advanced country, how its so backward in mobile phone coverage, guess were just lucky in Europe, so on that note, YE HA for the iphone.

Im sure that if the entire US was the size of just one of our states then we would have the newest cell systems as well.

[getti]

Although the news is a dissapointmet its not THAT much of a let down. I was an apple user but for a bizarre reason bought a Vista desktop (please no booing and hissing i know i did wrong).

I have learnt from my mistake and when i get paid in 2 weeks im getting a nice new MacBook Pro and dumping Vista the second i can!.

Now Vista is only just out but already Tiger walks all over Vista. Just think that in October we will all get our hands on a new OS that will be far far better than anything else, whilst syncing our iPhone's to the computer and we will all be very very happy.

Yes this is a delay but we know why which is the main thing

[CoreWeb]

??? IE7 is a huge change (whether or not it's an improvement is debateable). IE 5.5 to IE 6 or 6.5 was minor. The move to IE7 was a bigger jump than any Safari, Firefox, or Opera release (since version 4). The Interface is completely changed, searching, tabs, Quicktabs, RSS, completely new rendering engine (doesn't even work with much of the old IE6 stuff), XPS built in, security, etc.

.Net 3.0 is to Win32 what Cocoa is to Carbon. It's a completely new (well at least the WPF, WWF, and WCF part) way to build Windows apps.


True enough.


No, it's a total rewrite of D3D.


LOL. Panther to Tiger was a very very small update. Spotlight, Dashboard, Automator, CoreImage/Video... that's pretty much it.
Again, adding .NET 3.0 to the system was like adding Cocoa to the Mac OS. Then you got Microsoft's equivalent to Quartz/Quartz Extreme/Quartz2D (DWM), DisplayPDF (XPS), ColorSync, CoreAudio, FrontRow, Time Machine (Previous Docs), X11/terminal (Services For Unix/PowerShell), Exposé and CMD-TAB(Flip and Flip3D), Spotlight, Dashboard (Sidebar), new networking, Bonjour/Rendevous (People Near Me), Inkwell (Tablet), Voice Over, Speech Recognition, QT7 (WMP11), FileVault (EFS), AdressBook, New Finder, iCal (WinCal), iDVD (Win DVD Maker), iPhoto (Win Photo Gallery), IIS7 (Apache), OpenGL 2.0 (DX10), Unix permissions (UAC)...

Apple never added that much new stuff to any 10.x release and especially not from Panther to Tiger. 10.3 to 10.4 was more like Windows 2000 to Windows XP. XP to Vista is like 10.1 to 10.5. It only stops short of OS 9 to OS X because they didn't change kernels (although they did add one with 64-bit).


Ah. Got a mistaken impression of Vienna. But still, Tiger had many under-the-hood advancements. But XP -> Vista is NOWHERE near OS9 to OSX. At most, I'd say Jaguar to Tiger.

As for IE, maybe they rewrote it, they are still using the Trident layout engine. They only did bug fixes, primarily. I could probably write most of IE's interface. A layout engine, not so much. But they didn't rewrite the layout engine, which is the main part of a web browser.

DirectX, I'll give you.

So, perhaps more improvements than I thought, but still, not even approaching OS9 to OSX (which was the original comparison, I think), and probably not even the differences between OS 10.0 and 10.4.

[fastdrive]

I was just hoping that Leopard would come out before the Iphone so that when the Iphone shipped integration and new exciting features would have been enabled from the start.

But now I wonder if there will be a software upgrade for the Iphone when Leopard ships later to enable some of these features?

[clevin]

I was just hoping that Leopard would come out before the Iphone so that when the Iphone shipped integration and new exciting features would have been enabled from the start.

But now I wonder if there will be a software upgrade for the Iphone when Leopard ships later to enable some of these features?

emmmmmm, there isn't any feature that would fit in the phone, and the iphone-OSX maybe too weak compare to your expectation, im afraid.

[clevin]

So, perhaps more improvements than I thought, but still, not even approaching OS9 to OSX (which was the original comparison, I think), and probably not even the differences between OS 10.0 and 10.4.

OS9->OSX is total rewrite, and borrowed >75% code from Unix. It was a desperate move at that time, u can't expect M$ to re-write their system when windows is dominanting >85% of market, they get no reason to do so.

[Stella]

For a history of Vista, read:

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista.asp

Paul Thurrot can be a bit biased towards windows, but also, he can be quite balanced too - especially when it comes to Vista - he'll say its crap, if he thinks its crap, or good - and justify the reasoning.

Vista today was based off Windows 2003 and the technologies developed for Vista in the initial project were back ported.


"So why did Vista take so long? Microsoft will tell you that Vista has really only been in active development since mid-2004, when it "reset" the original Longhorn project and restarted development on the Windows Server 2003 code base. I'd argue that this is a convenient misstatement of the facts: Windows Vista is Longhorn and Longhorn is Windows Vista. In short, Microsoft did take five years to bring Longhorn--sorry, Windows Vista--to market.

As it turns out, the reason why is simple. Microsoft screwed up, plain and simple. Each version of Windows is based on the version that came before it and because Windows Vista was envisioned as a kitchen sink release that would include every major new feature imaginable, it eventually teetered and fell under the weight of the technology Microsoft was heaping upon it. That Vista is now based on the Windows Server 2003 code based and not that of Windows XP is meaningless. When the project started, back in 2001, it was based on Windows XP."

--

"To be fair, it's Windows Vista's only competitor. Maybe you've heard of it: It's called Windows XP."

He's quite right too. OSX isn't a real competitor, its like a bug nipping a dog or cat ( or you!).

Ah. Got a mistaken impression of Vienna. But still, Tiger had many under-the-hood advancements. But XP -> Vista is NOWHERE near OS9 to OSX. At most, I'd say Jaguar to Tiger.

As for IE, maybe they rewrote it, they are still using the Trident layout engine. They only did bug fixes, primarily. I could probably write most of IE's interface. A layout engine, not so much. But they didn't rewrite the layout engine, which is the main part of a web browser.

DirectX, I'll give you.

So, perhaps more improvements than I thought, but still, not even approaching OS9 to OSX (which was the original comparison, I think), and probably not even the differences between OS 10.0 and 10.4.

[clevin]

He's quite right too. OSX isn't a real competitor, its like a bug nipping a dog or cat ( or you!).

lol, since OSX now has 5~6% market share, i think bug is a little bit underestimated.

[Counter]

You can flush it down the toilet in a year when its batteries get worn out, or in 2-3 years when its non user replaceable flash memory goes bad.

Pfft.

Exactly.

And because it's 3 products in one, you only have to flush once.

Saves water.

[Stella]

lol, since OSX now has 5~6% market share, i think bug is a little bit underestimated.

Thats u.s marketshare, not world wide. A huge difference.

95% of people do not use Macs.

5% is pitiful. Its a bug.

[GamecockMac]

Exactly.

And because it's 3 products in one, you only have to flush once.

Saves water.

Okay, everyone here gets it. You don't like the iPhone. Great. No need to be a broken record.

I have some good news for you, btw. No one is going to make you buy one, or care if you don't. Have a nice weekend.

[clevin]

Thats u.s marketshare, not world wide.

5% is pitiful. Its a bug.

I think its world-wide number, i will check to see if i can confirm this

[Eric5h5]

Hate to break it to you but XP went through more (and bigger) "under-the-hood changes" in its lifetime than OS X did from Panther to Tiger.

That's nice. Irrelevant, but nice. Let's stick to the point: 4 months = small delay. 4 years = big delay. 12X the delay. No comparison.

Way to totally misquote what Steve said about flash-based music players! :mad:

OK, if you don't like that one, then how about "Apple TV is not delayed until March! It's coming out in February! OK, Apple TV is delayed until March! Ignore what we just said!"

--Eric

[FF_productions]

Thats u.s marketshare, not world wide. A huge difference.

95% of people do not use Macs.

5% is pitiful. Its a bug.

It is still better than Windows.

[Stella]

I think its world-wide number, i will check to see if i can confirm this

If so, thats OK - up from 2.5 to 3%!

[clevin]

If so, thats OK - up from 2.5 to 3%!

hehe, I know, for apple's policy of fixing OS with hardware, it would take a miracle to increase OSX's marketshare to a decent number. It just can't physically make that many machines. i Think mac's marketshare will stalled at 8% eventually in two years, unless apple starts to license its system.

[jholzner]

I thought Apple only "planned" to demonstrate "an almost-complete feature set." But perhaps I'm wrong. I will wait until Sep, 07, before I make any judgments about the (lack of) revelation of secret features.

Edit: MR reported only that "developers will be given a "near-final" beta copy of Leopard at the Worldwide Developers Conference in early June." This does not say anything about a complete feature set, so my judgment will be delayed until Sep., 07, as previously stated.

Well, go straight to the source and you'll find:

"and as a result we will not be able to release Leopard at our Worldwide Developers Conference in early June as planned. While Leopard's features will be complete by then, we cannot deliver the quality release that we and our customers expect from us. We now plan to show our developers a near final version of Leopard"

[Stella]

It is still better than Windows.

Depends what your needs and requirements are. Its not black and white.

For example: if your looking for a cheap $299 PC to do word processing, email, internet etc, then windows is just fine.

Macs / OSX is not a magic bullet, perfect 100% solution, fits all needs.

[Stella]

Okay, everyone here gets it. You don't like the iPhone. Great. No need to be a broken record.

I have some good news for you, btw. No one is going to make you buy one, or care if you don't. Have a nice weekend.

He's entitled to voice his opinion, just like you are ( but such a response isn't necessary ).

[landis]

what apple should do to stop all the bitching from so many people is give out free copies of Leopard with all computers bought after june. that way people do not have to complain about $100 for the best operating system ever made.

this is the only way apple can recover some credibility.

for all of those people who cannot afford to pay the hundred bucks in october, try investing your money while you wait for a mac. Buy apple shares after they just dropped and wait fo rhte to go up after the iphone release. then buy yourself leopard and some new hardware!

everybody needs to stop whining

[shadowfax]

To all who can't wait 120-odd more days for OS X 10.5 "Leopard:"

My wife suggests you all take a page out of Eric Cartman's store of wisdom. When Cartman couldn't wait for the Wii release, he attempted to freeze himself by ascending a peak in the rockies and freezing himself, so Butters could wake him up in a few weeks, never knowing he'd waited at all. I suggest you do the same. Don't worry, I won't forget where you're frozen! I'll come get you!

[clevin]

what apple should do to stop all the bitching from so many people is give out free copies of Leopard with all computers bought after june. that way people do not have to complain about $100 for the best operating system ever made.

lol, I would be seriously impressed if apple does that.

[CoreWeb]

or example: if your looking for a cheap $299 PC to do word processing, email, internet etc, then windows is just fine.

For a couple of weeks, until it crashes... :D

Couldn't resist.

[clevin]

For a couple of weeks, until it crashes... :D

Couldn't resist.

:p to be fair, that was true 15 years ago

[APPLENEWBIE]

:p to be fair, that was true 15 years ago


To be fair, it was true 1.5 years ago (when I switched...)

Couldn't resist either...

[shadowfax]

:p to be fair, that was true 15 years agoI dunno. I think that the problem with Windows is STILL that it's unsafe for uneducated (and uninterested in learning more... in short stupid) people who open attachments they shouldn't, click "yes" to dialog boxes they shouldn't, and install products by Gator software, etc.

It's no coincidence that these people are by and large the type of people that see a computer as a commodity that should be purchased for the lowest price available. I will grant you that *I* could keep a $299 computer running at top notch and all, if I were interested in buying something of such poor performance and craftmanship (for my needs). But, again, the people that actually do buy those computers end up with all kinds of spyware and crap that they would not have if they spent the $575 it would take to buy a mini, a cheap keyboard/mouse/15 inch CRT.

The whole point of the $299 PC experience is also to convince users that it's all they'll need, so they typically don't buy/acquire things like adaware, NAV, etc...

[sushi]

For a couple of weeks, until it crashes... :D

That was yesterday for me! :p

[Stella]

I don't think that Apple have lost any credibility.

Its not the first time Apple have delayed a product release, and it won't be the last. Its common for projects to be late, especially software projects.

Yes, you are right, people need to calm down a bit.

what apple should do to stop all the bitching from so many people is give out free copies of Leopard with all computers bought after june. that way people do not have to complain about $100 for the best operating system ever made.

this is the only way apple can recover some credibility.

for all of those people who cannot afford to pay the hundred bucks in october, try investing your money while you wait for a mac. Buy apple shares after they just dropped and wait fo rhte to go up after the iphone release. then buy yourself leopard and some new hardware!

everybody needs to stop whining

[Veritas&Equitas]

$100 for the best operating system ever made.
We've never even touched or tried it, we don't even know what some of it's features will be, or if it will continue to be buggy like the current builds, and yet you're already dubbing it the "best OS ever made?" Wow. The blinders on a little tight?

[FF_productions]

Depends what your needs and requirements are. Its not black and white.

For example: if your looking for a cheap $299 PC to do word processing, email, internet etc, then windows is just fine.

Macs / OSX is not a magic bullet, perfect 100% solution, fits all needs.

You make a point, I dealt with Windows for 4 years, always running maintenance and getting rid of spyware, it was truly a waste of my time. Others have had better experiences while mine was a nightmare.

[Stella]

For a couple of weeks, until it crashes... :D

Couldn't resist.

:D

Weeks... that long?

:D

[iW00t]

Exactly.

And because it's 3 products in one, you only have to flush once.

Saves water.

Oh yeah, you got a point too.

Let's add "environmentally friendly" as a feature for the iPhone as well :rolleyes:

[dejo]

OK, if you don't like that one, then how about "Apple TV is not delayed until March! It's coming out in February! OK, Apple TV is delayed until March! Ignore what we just said!"
I guess you are using "air-quotes", huh? ;)

[BrokenChairs]

I read an article in my local paper today about the delay with Apple. They stated that Apple is too small a company compared to Hewlett Packard and IBM to be making such things as the iPhone and Leopard in tandem, in regards to employees etc. I just hope that Apple don't get too excited in the future about new gizmos and gadgets and leave out on the thing that got them there in the first place: computers!

[sushi]

I read an article in my local paper today about the delay with Apple. They stated that Apple is too small a company compared to Hewlett Packard and IBM to be making such things as the iPhone and Leopard in tandem, in regards to employees etc. I just hope that Apple don't get too excited in the future about new gizmos and gadgets and leave out on the thing that got them there in the first place: computers!
Nice first post.

Nothing like being a troll...

[sikkinixx]

Nice first post.

Nothing like being a troll...

but sorta true. I really do hope Apple doesn't start going too crazy into other product lines and forget about its computers :( I highly doubt it will but it seems that the more diversified a company gets, the more it forgets about the little things.


Anyway, this sucks quite frankly. I just sold my macbook and was all stoked to get a new one when Leopard comes out this summer now its been delayed until October so I will have to buy a laptop before then (for school) and fork out $150 for the upgrade....thanks :apple: It better be damn good.

[matticus008]

There's been articles about this, Vista eating at Apple marketshare, go google.
Actually, the only statistical data suggests that Apple sales aren't increasing as quickly as Vista sales (no real surprise there, since there's nothing new for Apple to sell). It's also based on one month of data. Windows Vista market share, starting from zero, is taking market share from everyone, because they're all slices of the same pie.
The fact that is that people are pointing fingers at Vista being incredibly late, but these people also forget that it took Apple a long time to get OS10 out the door.
Yes, but OS X was not delivered as a public announcement with massive developer ramp-up and release announcements. They worked on it until it was ready for the public beta stage, in 2000. It was released in 2001.

Vista on the other hand was announced, given flowcharts and business projections and release date announcements as early as 2001. It's been available to developers since 2002, along with pie-in-the-sky promises about worthwhile new features, almost none of which were delivered. Microsoft strung people along by making announcements based on ideas, not based on achievements. It didn't ship to consumers until 2007. Of course, if they hadn't announced features, people would have jumped ship because of low momentum and increasing delays. What they did was a calculated business move, but a massive industry backfire. Apple's delay announcement is a pretty typical delay announcement, with only rabid bloggers and forum whiners really upset. Developers and industry professionals haven't cried out in rage, and they won't.

If you're going to do something completely in public, you run the risk of being laughed at for your collossal failures. If you keep things hidden, you run the risk of not enticing enough people and losing some potential customers. But you can't base your "fairness in mockery" standards on hindsight. OS X was widely anticipated, but never given a shipping announcement. There was nothing to mock, because no indications had been made.
If people starting knocking other companies, and contrasting Apple, then you'd better make sure that Apple haven't done the same...
Every company has delayed projects and screwed up development. There's no such thing as someone free from hypocrisy. The entire industry has made Microsoft's massive failure a running joke because of the scale of it. When you get right down to it, everyone has screwed up. If you require a spotless record to make fun of someone, then everyone should be silent.

Both projects shared similar problems: both projects were late for various reasons, both involved rewrites etc.
One project had private, internal setbacks; the other project made public promises and failed to deliver, month after month and feature after feature in an almost unprecedented volume. They're not really similar at all, except in the way that all delays are similar.
Vista was a major re-write. OSX10.1, OSX10...5 were based upon 10.0 and so didn't involve such major development - more incremental development.
It was not. The underlying rewrite of the desktop framework was no more extensive or ambitious than Core Image and Quartz Extreme, and all those other features you rattled off are just new versions of software. Case in point: XP drivers do still work with Vista, they're just generally disallowed because they've tried to clean up the standards. It is absolutely nothing like the 98->XP transition or the OS9-OSX transition.
Vista is a major rewrite. Not a total rewrite, but then again it didn't need to be like OS X did.

[quote]Think about it... total replacement/update of the following:
Printing subsystem (10.2), display subsystem (DWM) (10.4),
graphics subsystem (10.4), Media subsystem (10.3), Audio (10.4), Media Center (10.4/10.5), Networking (10.3), new search system (10.4)
There, updated for you with the "minor" updates of OS X that provided these "major" updates in Windows. I stopped early because I got bored.


Nothing like being a troll...
To be fair, he's right. Apple has about 1/10th the staff of even HP, which doesn't develop its own OS (but does quite a bit Apple doesn't). I think even Gateway has more permanent employees than Apple, and they barely even design their own computers.

There's only so much you can do when you're relatively low-staffed, particularly when you need expert-level workers to support a new project (like software integration of the iPhone and AppleTV). You can't just hire new programmers and hit the ground running. They would have had to expand their staff well over a year ago to have any measurable effect on current projects, and they may not have terribly large long-term need for the added staff. Once things settle down, they might be able to maintain all these projects on their own, and so the hiring would have been wasteful.

[Daveway]

has anyone reached the 'I really just don't care anymore' point with Leopard. Really yall should try not caring, it feels great to see a Leopard thread and just brush it off. It'll also help lighten the blow of inevitably bad news.

:cool:

[HowEver]

We should try Leopard, or we should try brushing it off?

I'm kind of in the brush it off camp. Having tried it, I'm happy to wait until it's a solid piece of work.

has anyone reached the 'I really just don't care anymore' point with Leopard. Really yall should try it, it feels great to see a Leopard thread and just brush it off.

:cool:

[Stella]

I agree with the majority of your post except for the OS10 bit ( its a good post by the way ).

Apple started at least one OS10 project and abandoned development. The OSX we know today was taken from NeXT. So there was at least one failed project and a new OS10 project restarted - much like Vista.

Microsoft are far too ambitious in their targets which is why Vista failed, initially and had to be restarted from the Windows 2003 code base. Apple create software but their software is a lot of simpler than microsoft, but its just good enough for the average Apple consumer. Apple get a lot of their code for 'free' ( i.e., provided by opensource ). Overall, Microsoft create far more complex software than Apple do. For example:

* SQL Server ( enterprise ) - far more complex than Apple's desktop database ( sorry I forget the name )
* .Net and Visual Studio - far exceeds the complexity of (Editor) XCode / Objective C - the COM+ / .Net frameworks. Generally you would chose Java or .net for your enterprise solution, not ObjectiveC - it just doesn't have the flexibility and requirements.
* OSX v Windows. Apple inherit a lot of the code base from BSD and put an interface on top ( its a bit more than that - but microsoft create from ground up ( initially) whilst Apple inherit a very good code base - foundation on which to develop from ). Microsoft's approach may not be the best, however. Unix is tried and tested, and very good.
* Office v iWork. Office is far more complex and offers vastly more functionality than iWork which comprises of only word processor plus presentation. MS Office is far suited towards business needs than iWork, which is limited in comparison. iWork is for the consumer.

I'm naming just three examples, there are plenty of others. Microsoft is in the software game, Apple primarily aren't - some software, but majority hardware based.

Yes, but OS X was not delivered as a public announcement with massive developer ramp-up and release announcements. They worked on it until it was ready for the public beta stage, in 2000. It was released in 2001.

[QUOTE=BGil;3543571]Vista is a major rewrite. Not a total rewrite, but then again it didn't need to be like OS X did.


There, updated for you with the "minor" updates of OS X that provided these "major" updates in Windows. I stopped early because I got bored.


To be fair, he's right. Apple has about 1/10th the staff of even HP, which doesn't develop its own OS (but does quite a bit Apple doesn't). I think even Gateway has more permanent employees than Apple, and they barely even design their own computers.

There's only so much you can do when you're relatively low-staffed, particularly when you need expert-level workers to support a new project (like software integration of the iPhone and AppleTV). You can't just hire new programmers and hit the ground running. They would have had to expand their staff well over a year ago to have any measurable effect on current projects, and they may not have terribly large long-term need for the added staff. Once things settle down, they might be able to maintain all these projects on their own, and so the hiring would have been wasteful.

[Stella]

Nice first post.

Nothing like being a troll...

Excuse me, but why is he a troll? Is it because he put Apple in a negative light and you didn't like that.

Your post is more trollish - since you fail to explain the reason for it - all you said is "He is a troll" ( in different words ).

If Apple don't have enough resources ( i.e., employees ) to work on both OSX and iPhone at once, then perhaps Apple are too small. This was the justification for Apple delaying OSX10.5, was it not?

For your convenience, his post is below:

"I read an article in my local paper today about the delay with Apple. They stated that Apple is too small a company compared to Hewlett Packard and IBM to be making such things as the iPhone and Leopard in tandem, in regards to employees etc. I just hope that Apple don't get too excited in the future about new gizmos and gadgets and leave out on the thing that got them there in the first place: computers!"

[cheunghy]

So Apple is going to preview a near-complete build of Leopard at WWDC, which means most or all of the secret features will be unveiled. IF a new User Interface is really coming, third-party developers will have enough time (3-4 months) to optimise their applications.

[sushi]

Excuse me, but why is he a troll? Is it because he put Apple in a negative light and you didn't like that.

Your post is more trollish - since you fail to explain the reason for it - all you said is "He is a troll" ( in different words ).

If Apple don't have enough resources ( i.e., employees ) to work on both OSX and iPhone at once, then perhaps Apple are too small. This was the justification for Apple delaying OSX10.5, was it not?

For your convenience, his post is below:

"I read an article in my local paper today about the delay with Apple. They stated that Apple is too small a company compared to Hewlett Packard and IBM to be making such things as the iPhone and Leopard in tandem, in regards to employees etc. I just hope that Apple don't get too excited in the future about new gizmos and gadgets and leave out on the thing that got them there in the first place: computers!"
Why do I think he might be a troll?

Indicator A: Local paper with no link to the article.

Indicator B: Recently registered.

Indicator C: First post.

Indicator D: As of this time, only one post.

Enough said. ;)

IMHO, the article (what he mentioned) makes no sense at all. For example, why was Microsoft not mentioned and IBM mentioned in the comparison? Since we cannot read the article, who knows what it really said or the context of the message. If we could read the article then his comments may make sense.

Anyway, here is my take. The Mac OS X concept is the future for Apple and all of it's products. The iPhone uses a scaled down version if you will. Integration between their products is very important.

At this point, none of us, except those developers covered by a NDA know for sure what are the secret features of Leopard. My guess, having been a developer before, is that issues that needed resolving for the iPhone are related to issues with Leopard.

What I do know, is that the demonstrated iPhone interface is very nice and user friendly. Who knows, we might be seeing this interface move into the computer side in the future.

As for now, Tiger is working very well and will continue to do so until Leopard is released. The release of the iPhone is much more important to Apple at this time.

[GanleyBurger]

.

Hmmm... Perhaps Apple believes that if they can get teens to buy the ipods and iphones, those teens will eventually buy a Mac computer when they become young adults and get jobs.

They'd better...:mad:

[dumbduck]

:mad: Apple is starting to piss me off with the iPhone. Don't get me wrong i love the iPhone but they shouldn't sacrifice the trust of their customers for something that is highly overpriced. The "secret features" better knock my effing socks off or my waiting was in vain. I have been waiting to purchase a Mac Pro Quad Core (now 8-core) until Leopard and iLife '07 came out, but waiting until fall may be impossible in my situation. I wouldn't be so angry if they originally said that it would be coming out in fall 07, They had better not delay the ipod or i might lose it :(

[obafamecar]

Is is just me, or is part of this Leopard delay statement a not-so-subtle guarantee that Leopard will have multi-touch? Is this common knowledge or is no one commenting on it, or what? Their 'official word' included, and I quote: "We can’t wait until customers get their hands (and fingers) on it and experience what a revolutionary and magical product it is."

I think this is a good thing (the delay) - they threw all of us nerds a huge bone with that 1 sentence. I'm waiting happily until October (or November, or next year).

[bobrik]

I counted on Leopard to be released in "Spring 2007" (June), and I therefore delayed my computer upgrade until June. Now Apple announced their statement about delaying Leopard until October. I understand the reasons for the delay. But Apple still should stay fair with their customers that counted on Apple's repetitive claims that Leopard is on the right track to be released on schedule (in June). How to stay fair with such customers (me being a one)? It's simple: offer a free upgrade to Leopard (and iLife as well, provided it gets released at the same time as Leopard) for people that purchase a Mac after "Spring 2007" (that's after June).

I think if Apple has sense for fairness, they must offer what I described.

[TheAnswer]

Is is just me, or is part of this Leopard delay statement a not-so-subtle guarantee that Leopard will have multi-touch?

Nope. That quote was about the iPhone...

iPhone has already passed several of its required certification tests and is on schedule to ship in late June as planned. We can’t wait until customers get their hands (and fingers) on it and experience what a revolutionary and magical product it is.

[killr_b]

After all these posts and a few days to cool down I just want to say, the iPhone better be cooler than it looks so far, and Leopard better have a sweet unified user interface with a new finder. :cool: :D So far it looks like they're at least on the same page with the ui. :)

And the stock better be on the up. :mad:

B

[Father Jack]

Sorry, I know I have already contributed to this post .... BUT

I WANT TO KEEP SHOUTING BAST**DS, BAST**DS !!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

FJ

[Steve Jobs=God]

To clear the air on apple's workforce, as of Sept 06 (well into iPhone dev)

Employees

17,787 full-time; 2,399 temporary

Wikipedia is brilliant :D

[polevault139]

Ans since anyone can edit Wikipedia that information is so reliable:rolleyes: . I'm not saying that I don't use wikipedia but when stating factual information I at least try to find a reputable source. The only reason I feel this way is because I once saw a Wikipedia article on Mark Twain and about how he was a pimp. Needless to say it was cleaned up pretty quick.

[Steve Jobs=God]

Ans since anyone can edit Wikipedia that information is so reliable:rolleyes: . I'm not saying that I don't use wikipedia but when stating factual information I at least try to find a reputable source. The only reason I feel this way is because I once saw a Wikipedia article on Mark Twain and about how he was a pimp. Needless to say it was cleaned up pretty quick.

Ah, good point

[59031]

All idiots whining crying and bitching about Leopard not coming out until October and Apple turning it's back on computers, get a grip, and stop being such hysterical imbeciles. May I emphasize the word IMBECILES one more time?

IMBECILES!!!

Ans since anyone can edit Wikipedia that information is so reliable:rolleyes: . I'm not saying that I don't use wikipedia but when stating factual information I at least try to find a reputable source. The only reason I feel this way is because I once saw a Wikipedia article on Mark Twain and about how he was a pimp. Needless to say it was cleaned up pretty quick.

Wikipedia is more credible than some people are willing to give it credit for. The fact that the incident with the Mark Twain article was cleaned up immediately lends to Wikipedia's credibility.

[Westsider 4 Mac]

...just really looking forward to seeing the new OS...:)

[clevin]

To be fair, it was true 1.5 years ago (when I switched...)

Couldn't resist either...

lol, if ur windows crashed in several weeks, then yeah, u were in very good situation to switch, :P

Yes, but OS X was not delivered as a public announcement with massive developer ramp-up and release announcements. They worked on it until it was ready for the public beta stage, in 2000. It was released in 2001.


As bad situation as Apple was in at that time, maybe because nobody cared at all?

One project had private, internal setbacks
private, internal setbacks? I guess Macworld are just private party nobody noticed then?

It was not. The underlying rewrite of the desktop framework was no more extensive or ambitious than Core Image and Quartz Extreme, and all those other features you rattled off are just new versions of software.
I guess those ppl who rattle about leopard's new UI and update apps really are over-reacted in your opinion, aren't they?

There's only so much you can do when you're relatively low-staffed, particularly when you need expert-level workers to support a new project (like software integration of the iPhone and AppleTV). You can't just hire new programmers and hit the ground running.
forgive me, these excuses are just ridiculous, its not like apple is poor, its not like they didn't borrow >80% codes from Unix projects, understaffed? what prevents them from hiring more? SJ wants to collect more money than paying more developer? or what?

Its ironic when comes down to apple's failure, u can think of these "reasons" rather than simply say " a little bit more ambitious plan for OSX 10.5 became too big for them to handle on time". Their developers maybe just not that brilliant as ppl expected, is that so hard to admit?

[freebooter]

Yawn...
Comments:
a) 10.4 wasn't that much better than 10.3. 10.5 likely won't be enormously better than 10.4.
b) I think the marketing people have a lot of people hypnotized.
c) The benefit of delay I see is that we will, perhaps, see one more refinement of 10.4. (10.4.91?)

[clevin]

Yawn...
Comments:
a) 10.4 wasn't that much better than 10.3. 10.5 likely won't be enormously better than 10.4.
b) I think the marketing people have a lot of people hypnotized.
c) The benefit of delay I see is that we will, perhaps, see one more refinement of 10.4. (10.4.91?)
10.4.10 is fine,

[Stella]

Why do I think he might be a troll?

Indicator A: Local paper with no link to the article.

Indicator B: Recently registered.

Indicator C: First post.

Indicator D: As of this time, only one post.

Enough said. ;)


Or perhaps he didn't realise that its good practice to provide a URL to articles?

You are right though, we need to read the article in full, instead of his interpretation alone.

[Stella]

He's ( the original poster ) is right, you can't just put a load of developers on a software project in a short space of time - you'll overwhelm the project and cause more delays. Has to be well managed process. Any new developers need time to ramp up, and its the existing developers who will help in that process.

There is a saying for this situation:
"Adding fuel to feed the fire".

When Apple saw that iPhone was going to be late, they just could not hire say, 50 new developers for the 10.5 and iPhone project and hope to reap the immediate benefits. It takes time for all these new developers to be 100% productive. Developers could be the best in the world, but on new projects they are still going to need ramp up time.



----------
Original Quote:
There's only so much you can do when you're relatively low-staffed, particularly when you need expert-level workers to support a new project (like software integration of the iPhone and AppleTV). You can't just hire new programmers and hit the ground running.


forgive me, these excuses are just ridiculous, its not like apple is poor, its not like they didn't borrow >80% codes from Unix projects, understaffed? what prevents them from hiring more? SJ wants to collect more money than paying more developer? or what?

Its ironic when comes down to apple's failure, u can think of these "reasons" rather than simply say " a little bit more ambitious plan for OSX 10.5 became too big for them to handle on time". Their developers maybe just not that brilliant as ppl expected, is that so hard to admit?

[dmelgar]

Nice first post.

Nothing like being a troll...
Who's being the troll? Someone says something you don't like and they're branded a troll? Not a very pleasant response.

I agree with that article. Its obvious that Apple is overextended, they're admitting that they can't get both done on time. They are relatively small for all the things they're trying to accomplish. I do worry that they are over reaching and may end up failing in all of them.

[olemed]

I too am bummed about Leopard's delay. I was hoping to buy a MacPro around June or July and get Leopard included. I will probably still buy the MP and just wait for Leopard. My 6 year old G4 is running on fumes otherwise I'd wait until October. But if it means more time for Apple to iron out any kinks, I'd rather have them do it right.

[shadowfax]

Apple started at least one OS10 project and abandoned development. The OSX we know today was taken from NeXT. So there was at least one failed project and a new OS10 project restarted - much like Vista.You could hardly call neXT a failure, It definitely had itself a niche. Apple bought NeXT, because it was actually a really great OS based on yet another great OS.Microsoft are far too ambitious in their targets which is why Vista failed, initially and had to be restarted from the Windows 2003 code base. Apple create software but their software is a lot of simpler than microsoft, but its just good enough for the average Apple consumer. Apple get a lot of their code for 'free' ( i.e., provided by opensource ). Overall, Microsoft create far more complex software than Apple do.You say that like it's a good thing. complex software is often BAD. You criticize Apple for using existing saftware as a basis for their work, yet MS is far worse when it comes to doing this. XP is based heavily on NT technology, Windows Server 2003 is also based in large part on that base, and thus Vista...For example:

* SQL Server ( enterprise ) - far more complex than Apple's desktop database ( sorry I forget the name )
* .Net and Visual Studio - far exceeds the complexity of (Editor) XCode / Objective C - the COM+ / .Net frameworks. Generally you would chose Java or .net for your enterprise solution, not ObjectiveC - it just doesn't have the flexibility and requirements.
You're comparing apples to oranges here. XCode is free software, and .NET, last time I checked, is not exactly cheap ($400-$1000). I don't think SQL Server is either (looks like its $10k+). Why not compare that to Oracle or something? Apple is clearly not competing in these markets, so it's really pointless to compare their free/bundled products with MS's expensive enterprise solutions.* OSX v Windows. Apple inherit a lot of the code base from BSD and put an interface on top ( its a bit more than that - but microsoft create from ground up ( initially) whilst Apple inherit a very good code base - foundation on which to develop from ). Microsoft's approach may not be the best, however. Unix is tried and tested, and very good.Microsoft based Windows on DOS, and they have buried themselves in legacy code ever since. Please explain to me how that it design from the ground up. Apple may use Darwin, but OS X is a very significant amount of work, much more extensive than even X11 and KDE/GNOME, which are pretty huge software projects.
* Office v iWork. Office is far more complex and offers vastly more functionality than iWork which comprises of only word processor plus presentation. MS Office is far suited towards business needs than iWork, which is limited in comparison. iWork is for the consumer.
The difference, again, is reflected in the cost of the products. iWork is actually pretty sharp software where MS Office 2007 can just be baffling. I'm naming just three examples, there are plenty of others. Microsoft is in the software game, Apple primarily aren't - some software, but majority hardware based.Yeah, there are plenty of others. Final Cut Pro is not nearly as complex as MS's Movie Maker, nor is Apple's Logic (granted they bought this one), or even garageBand, nearly as complex as MS's WAV editor.

Seriously, when you look at the iLife suite, not to even mention Aperture, Logic, all the flavors of Final Cut, it becomes clear that claiming that Apple develops "simpler" stuff than MS is a completely uninformed statement. Apple develops towards a different consumer base, in general, and they are very successful in that market, just as MS has no doubt met with considerable success with Visual Studio, etc.

The OS example is the only comparable one, and there is no question that Apple has a superior product by most measures (other than things like market share, etc. that have nothing to do with product quality).

[rjwill246]

Thats u.s marketshare, not world wide. A huge difference.

95% of people do not use Macs.

5% is pitiful. Its a bug.

India produces a cloud of red muck that is 7 times the size of the country drifting over the earth. World-wide "market" share is not the only thing to be concerned about. Quality counts.
btw, has Stella EVER been right? Is "she" actually Paul Thurrot? Or John Dvorak?

[Stella]

I'm not calling Next a failure.. please highlight where I said it was :-)

The OS10 we know today was *NOT* the first OS10 project ( or Next Gen Mac OS ), there was at least one abandoned attempt before the OSX10 we know today.

So the rest of your paragraph is mute, because you didn't understand my post and your putting words into my mouth - things that I did simply did not say.

You could hardly call neXT a failure, It definitely had itself a niche. Apple bought NeXT, because it was actually a really great OS based on yet another great OS.You say that like it's a good thing. complex software is often BAD. You criticize Apple for using existing saftware as a basis for their work, yet MS is far worse when it comes to doing this. XP is based heavily on NT technology, Windows Server 2003 is also based in large part on that base, and thus Vista...



.NET is vastly more complex than XCode. .Net is a entire framework for building applications of all types, from desktop, to distributed applications - like Java / J2EE. I very much doubt you could write such applications with XCode. Apple offers WebObjects, but I believe you still have to pay for it.

Again, you misunderstand my post. I'm comparing that *over all* ( again, some thing you missed ) , microsoft write more complex software than Apple does.


You're comparing apples to oranges here. XCode is free software, and .NET, last time I checked, is not exactly cheap ($400-$1000). I don't think SQL Server is either (looks like its $10k+). Why not compare that to Oracle or something?


The fact is , if you look at Apple product range v microsoft product range, microsoft make more complex software, overall. Its not misinformed, its FACT ( hence, that comparison software list in my OP ).

Microsoft is a mainly a software company, whilst apple is predominately a hardware company and that shows through each product ranges.

The target markets - yes, that it was I was saying, Apple write software ( with the exception of its Pro Apps ) aimed at consumers. Microsoft product range is consumer ( a little ) but also for businesses.


Seriously, when you look at the iLife suite, not to even mention Aperture, Logic, all the flavors of Final Cut, it becomes clear that claiming that Apple develops "simpler" stuff than MS is a completely uninformed statement. Apple develops towards a different consumer base, in general, and they are very successful in that market, just as MS has no doubt met with considerable success with Visual Studio, etc.

The OS example is the only comparable one, and there is no question that Apple has a superior product by most measures (other than things like market share, etc. that have nothing to do with product quality).
[/QUOTE]

My point was that when planning Vista, microsoft was way too optimistic in its goals and thats why it failed. However Apple on the whole take a different approach, their software is more incremental. Apple don't go for the whole nine yards and thus you don't tend to see wholesale changes from one version of OSX10 to another ( unlike Vista ). Apple will more likely get its software out on time due to this , rather than microsoft's approach - Windows 95 ( late - should have been released 93 ), Vista....

[Stella]

India produces a cloud of red muck that is 7 times the size of the country drifting over the earth. World-wide "market" share is not the only thing to be concerned about. Quality counts.


Quality alone won't keep a company in business. Markshare isn't the only thing to be concerned about but that goes for quality too.

BetaMax was better quality than VHS. But VHS won the day - for a variety of reasons.

I'm going to use the $299 PC example. If all someone wants to do is email, internet, word processing then that PC will do just fine for them. There is no need for them to spend $1k ( or there abouts ) on a Mac. Its overkill. This individual does not require the extra quality that a Mac offers. Target markets and consumer needs.


btw, has Stella EVER been right? Is "she" actually Paul Thurrot? Or John Dvorak?

I'm not going to respond to such a lame statement. PS. stella isn't a girl.

[shadowfax]

Stella

I definitely misunderstood what you meant by "abandoned development," and I thought you were talking about NeXT OS, which would have implied its failure. My Apologies.

Nevertheless, you used that as a springboard to completely disregard my post. You didn't respond to my SIGNIFICANT examples of HUGELY complex software in Logic, Final Cut *, iMovie, GarageBand... Microsoft does not compete in this area, just as Apple does not compete with enterprise databasing or .NET stuff. Moreover, Vista offers few or no valuable features over OS X as a result of its complexity. That was my point.

MS does make much more software than Apple, and it does tend to be feature rich, but Apple's software that is offered in a similar price range and for professionals in particular is nothing to shake a fist at. your fundamental flaw in your examples is that you compared products with very different targets.

[Naimfan]

.NET is vastly more complex than XCode. .Net is a entire framework for building applications of all types, from desktop, to distributed applications - like Java / J2EE. I very much doubt you could write such applications with XCode. Apple offers WebObjects, but I believe you still have to pay for it.



Stella--

To put that more positively, you do not know. ;)

Best,

Bob

[Veritas&Equitas]

You didn't respond to my SIGNIFICANT examples of HUGELY complex software in Logic, Final Cut *, iMovie, GarageBand... Microsoft does not compete in this area, just as Apple does not compete with enterprise databasing or .NET stuff.
Microsoft, as a company, does not have to compete with Apple in this aspect. XP/Vista use is widespread enough that 3rd party developers/companies can profit by writing their own software for purchase, in which many companies don't on a Mac. Microsoft doesn't need to compete with Apple with companies like Avid and Adobe out there that develop very good video/photo editing software on their own.

[Peace]

In Apple's statement they said Leopard "was going to be released in June at the WWDC".

Think about that..

IF they were going to release it in June there MUST be "secret stuff" missing from the dev seeds.

Apple planned on showing off that secret stuff at NAB with a shipping date during WWDC07.This would have given developers two months to work out their apps with the secret stuff included in a dev seed posted on or around the same day that 9a410 was posted.Apple saw that this "secret stuff" was bogging down the process and decided to put it off until October.
Some of this "secret stuff" includes a NEW..BRAND NEW Quicktime engine.One that has AC-3,Dolby Digital Codecs.FLAC support.Bittorrent for peer to peer colaboration in the audio/video realm.

This engine MUST work flawlessly with iTunes AND the NEW Finder/Spotlight/QuickLook..These three MUST work in tandem because when you open the new Finder it's all there.In list view.In Column view AND..More importantly in ICON view because CoverFlow is integrated..

Apple decided that this was not doable in the timeframe given because the iPhone is being worked on still.

At least thats the excuse Apple gave..

I don't buy it..

IF..I say IF..The new QT engine were working correctly several of the listed bugs would be scratched off the list..

Now lets talk filesystem..

Apple wants OS 10.5 to be UNIX certified..This is why they are working on the ZFS.Apple wants it to be an integral part of the Kernel.THAT is the other sticky widget causing the delay.

Now the real important part.

Apple wants to be able to use fast O/S application switching between the various spaces environment.In otherwords let's say you have four spaces running.One space has the app iTunes on it.Another has Mail.A third would have MS Vista on it.Whenever you "switch" from one space to the other that specific space takes the forefront in resources putting the others on the back burner.

This is another sticky widget..

Apple thought they could do it in the released timeframe.They can't.
It may have a small part to do with the iPhone but honestly it's because OS 10.5.Which I said earlier should actually be OS 11.Is becoming a daunting task.



this is a "speculation".Take it for whatever you choose to take it as.

[djejrejk]

Does any of this matter?

I thought that this thread was about the Leopard Delay

Personally, I would rather wait a few months than get an incomplete OS. Tiger works great, no problems. Maybe I am missing the big picture.

:confused: :eek:

[Counter]

Okay, everyone here gets it. You don't like the iPhone. Great. No need to be a broken record.

I have some good news for you, btw. No one is going to make you buy one, or care if you don't. Have a nice weekend.

I was just hopping on the back of somebody elses joke there. Merely extending their joke, if you will. I'm glad everybody gets it.

I have some good news for you also, btw. I have an IQ higher than room temperature. And my weekend is awesome so far! Have a nice one yourself.

[ivnj]

Ya after reading this I can't wait for 10.5 either. But at least know it October now.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/12/technology/apple/

Thanks,
ivnj

[quantman]

http://looprumors.com/article.php?apple-nab-event-preview-live-coverage,2712181245

[Stella]

I did respond. I said "Overall microsoft make more complex software than Apple" and that there are exceptions.


Stella

MS does make much more software than Apple, and it does tend to be feature rich, but Apple's software that is offered in a similar price range and for professionals in particular is nothing to shake a fist at. your fundamental flaw in your examples is that you compared products with very different targets.

That was my point :-)

I did compare products, but only showing their complexity which did come out in the example. Yes, the target markets were different. Yes, maybe the example was flawed.


Stella--

To put that more positively, you do not know. ;)

Best,

Bob
Really.

So tell me, how is XCode environment more complex than .Net environment?

In your response, think 'application framework' - which is what I'm getting at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework

[CoreWeb]

Really.

So tell me, how is XCode environment more complex than .Net environment?

In your response, think 'application framework' - which is what I'm getting at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework

XCode is an IDE. The .NET framework is a framework. All that can be done in the .NET framework can be done with Apple's frameworks (aside from web pages, which aren't Apple's market - WebObjects hasn't been updated in a long time, I think).

Apple's frameworks include Core Data, Core Video, etc. And also, when it comes to some aspects of programming, simpler is better. A "complex environment" is a bad idea, generally.

And ANY Windows program you can create in Visual Studio you can probably also create a Mac version in XCode. Autodesk's Maya (a VERY VERY complicated program - too complicated, actually), is compiled in XCode (for their Mac version, at least).

[Stella]

Yes, I know XCode is primarily an IDE, but its a bit more than that too. The "XCode package" does include the rest of the development environment e.g, the SDKs which provide access to the Apple frameworks.

When you use .NET you generally use Visual Studio IDE.

When I mean complex - I meant that .Net includes stuff that XCode ( SDK ) doesn't provide such as the enterprise components - i.e., the equivalent of J2EE. ( But all that is out the scope of the XCode environment - .Net is more encompassing than XCode SDK environment - use Java.).

( Isn't WebObjects Java?

Anyone trying to develop Java apps using XCode needs their head looking at ( Use Eclipse or something !)
)

--
My original comparison between Apple and microsoft is lost in this thread. Microsoft are too amibitous, thus Vista was late, Apple aren't, so OSX isn't generally 'late'.

XCode is an IDE. The .NET framework is a framework. All that can be done in the .NET framework can be done with Apple's frameworks (aside from web pages, which aren't Apple's market - WebObjects hasn't been updated in a long time, I think).

Apple's frameworks include Core Data, Core Video, etc. And also, when it comes to some aspects of programming, simpler is better. A "complex environment" is a bad idea, generally.

And ANY Windows program you can create in Visual Studio you can probably also create a Mac version in XCode. Autodesk's Maya (a VERY VERY complicated program - too complicated, actually), is compiled in XCode (for their Mac version, at least).

[Naimfan]

Stella--

You said "I very much doubt..." I was merely pointing out that your statement means you do not know. You may believe your statement (and I have no doubt that you do), but your belief does not convert it to truth--even though it may be true.

As to the rest--not my field at all.

Best,

Bob

[nuckinfutz]

Yawn...
Comments:
a) 10.4 wasn't that much better than 10.3. 10.5 likely won't be enormously better than 10.4.
b) I think the marketing people have a lot of people hypnotized.
c) The benefit of delay I see is that we will, perhaps, see one more refinement of 10.4. (10.4.91?)

Well from a subjective standpoint it's easy to say "OS Blah 3.0 isn't much of an upgrade from OS Blah 2.0" without setting some sort of metric or a scale about what's "ernormously" better. I'm sure developers will disagree with you concerning the jump from 10.3-10.4

Core Data
Core Image
Core Video
Spotlight

Alone have transformed what you can do with apps and how your manage your data and how you access your data via metadata.

At the surface you can easily look at something that is very complex and view it trivially. IMO genius is the ability to make the complex simple and Apple does a lot of making complex things (Time Machine-snapshots, backup) easy.

Leopard is a larger leap forward than Tiger was from panther. If you want to know what's been updated. EVERYTHING. They took the 64-bit support from the Unix layer all the way up. Everything is faster and more full featured. If they need another 4 months to polish things. Have at it.

If people think this is about hypnotization then please tell me where I haven't gotten value in Tiger and where I won't get value in Leopard with specificity from a broad view. Anyone can say "I don't use search or backup or play audio" as a nice "get out of jail" card but computers users are varied and if something doesn't have value or merit then the the masses should generally come to this same consensus.

[Stella]

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

Stella--

You said "I very much doubt..." I was merely pointing out that your statement means you do not know.
Bob

[hircus]

Apple thought they could do it in the released timeframe.They can't.
It may have a small part to do with the iPhone but honestly it's because OS 10.5.Which I said earlier should actually be OS 11.Is becoming a daunting task.


Just wondering. Has they ever confirmed that the final product will be called 10.5? Maybe they will decide to call it OS XI after all -- it's the first one since 10.0 that takes more than a year to develop.

[cuatWDW]

Just wondering. Has they ever confirmed that the final product will be called 10.5? Maybe they will decide to call it OS XI after all -- it's the first one since 10.0 that takes more than a year to develop.

I don't think so. Steve Jobs stated a couple years ago, when they announced that they would be transitioning to Intel Proccessors, that "Mac OS X has set Apple up for the next 20 years. -- Personally I think 20 years may be a bit long, but I don't think Apple will move on quite yet. Besides, can you imagine saying Mac OS XI?? That's just weird.

[Nitromaster]

I looked at nintendo sites earlier and with all the new game announcements i was in a great mood,
this brought me down :(

might as well wait for penryn macbooks...

[CJD2112]

I don't think so. Steve Jobs stated a couple years ago, when they announced that they would be transitioning to Intel Proccessors, that "Mac OS X has set Apple up for the next 20 years. -- Personally I think 20 years may be a bit long, but I don't think Apple will move on quite yet. Besides, can you imagine saying Mac OS XI?? That's just weird.

Oh, Jobs was exagerrating. Remember, Jobs did state that the name "Leopard" isn't actually final. Personally, with the introduction of so much new technology - the iPhone, :apple:TV, 64-bit processing, Intel Processors, most likely new Apple Cinema Displays and of course those ever elusive "Top Secret Features", it seems pretty clear to me that OS X will be left behind for OS XI or something completely different.

[CJD2112]

In Apple's statement they said Leopard "was going to be released in June at the WWDC".

Think about that..

IF they were going to release it in June there MUST be "secret stuff" missing from the dev seeds.

Apple planned on showing off that secret stuff at NAB with a shipping date during WWDC07.This would have given developers two months to work out their apps with the secret stuff included in a dev seed posted on or around the same day that 9a410 was posted.Apple saw that this "secret stuff" was bogging down the process and decided to put it off until October.
Some of this "secret stuff" includes a NEW..BRAND NEW Quicktime engine.One that has AC-3,Dolby Digital Codecs.FLAC support.Bittorrent for peer to peer colaboration in the audio/video realm.

This engine MUST work flawlessly with iTunes AND the NEW Finder/Spotlight/QuickLook..These three MUST work in tandem because when you open the new Finder it's all there.In list view.In Column view AND..More importantly in ICON view because CoverFlow is integrated..

Apple decided that this was not doable in the timeframe given because the iPhone is being worked on still.

At least thats the excuse Apple gave..

I don't buy it..

IF..I say IF..The new QT engine were working correctly several of the listed bugs would be scratched off the list..

Now lets talk filesystem..

Apple wants OS 10.5 to be UNIX certified..This is why they are working on the ZFS.Apple wants it to be an integral part of the Kernel.THAT is the other sticky widget causing the delay.

Now the real important part.

Apple wants to be able to use fast O/S application switching between the various spaces environment.In otherwords let's say you have four spaces running.One space has the app iTunes on it.Another has Mail.A third would have MS Vista on it.Whenever you "switch" from one space to the other that specific space takes the forefront in resources putting the others on the back burner.

This is another sticky widget..

Apple thought they could do it in the released timeframe.They can't.
It may have a small part to do with the iPhone but honestly it's because OS 10.5.Which I said earlier should actually be OS 11.Is becoming a daunting task.



this is a "speculation".Take it for whatever you choose to take it as.

Hmmmm, excellent point. I never considered MS Vista running in a "Spaces" window/desktop. If Windows Vista programs won't be running natively in the next Mac OS (which some are speculating might be a "Top Secret Feature"), then running Vista altogether in a virtual desktop would be pretty amazing...

[piltupso]

Wonderful, I too now hate the iphone more than ever.

[czeluff]

Hmmmm, excellent point. I never considered MS Vista running in a "Spaces" window/desktop. If Windows Vista programs won't be running natively in the next Mac OS (which some are speculating might be a "Top Secret Feature"), then running Vista altogether in a virtual desktop would be pretty amazing...

I already DO this using Virtue Desktops (Space for Tiger). I have it setup to have 4 virtual desktops: one is Windows, one is iTunes and VLC, one is NeoOffice (since im always using it), and one is Safari (always opened).

cz

[gctwnl]

So how many people are still going to wait to buy a new system until Leopard is released?
I will. I want 10.5 Server on new hardware.

[Bosunsfate]

I already DO this using Virtue Desktops (Space for Tiger). I have it setup to have 4 virtual desktops: one is Windows, one is iTunes and VLC, one is NeoOffice (since im always using it), and one is Safari (always opened).

cz

So having that reside directly within the OS would be a good thing right?

The only way Apple is really going to gain significant market share in the OS and the Computer world is to get inside mainstream business. And as long as the majority of softare is still produced on the Windows platform OSX will never break through.

However, build OSX so that you can run a Windows built application on a Mac and it is a no brainer....no parrallels, no dual boot...nothing that a user would need to do as extra...that would be the trick.

When that happens, you'll see market share climb from the single digits to 10-20% easy. And that would be huge for Apple...

[Bosunsfate]

Wonderful, I too now hate the iphone more than ever.

Yea I bet you'll hate it as you walk into the store and buy it.

Hate it when you use it every day.

And hate it when you realize you can't live without it.:D

[CJD2112]

So having that reside directly within the OS would be a good thing right?

The only way Apple is really going to gain significant market share in the OS and the Computer world is to get inside mainstream business. And as long as the majority of softare is still produced on the Windows platform OSX will never break through.

However, build OSX so that you can run a Windows built application on a Mac and it is a no brainer....no parrallels, no dual boot...nothing that a user would need to do as extra...that would be the trick.

When that happens, you'll see market share climb from the single digits to 10-20% easy. And that would be huge for Apple...

That's what I'm hoping is one of Leopard "Top Secret" features, and incorporating PC Application support would be the perfect way to capture a more significant portion of the OS market. Well stated.

[ChildOL]

OS X is now in competition with Windows Vista, SO, as a hint by Apple of the new "look" of OS X, X marks the spot...
http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/

[Bosunsfate]

That's what I'm hoping is one of Leopard "Top Secret" features, and incorporating PC Application support would be the perfect way to capture a more significant portion of the OS market. Well stated.

Its what I hope for every day becuase my company won't fund a Mac as a work computer...Dell is the standard.

But the only reason they can make that claim is because of the application support.

The other claim, standardizing IT support is weak at best...because with Mac's you don't need nearly the same level of support. The proof is that a lot of my co-workers, including me, self support our Macs..

Now, what you can read between the lines...IT job security, people who have learned Windows support (Certified and all), do they really want to learn something different? Or loose a job? Short sighted, but certainly a valid reaction.

So, I hope.

[uncompressed]

It's not that bad.

Being a longtime Windows user making the switch soon, I can't wait to have a stable release of Tiger, the world's greatest operating system.

Ungrateful bastards.

:)

Amen.

My last Mac was a G3 that died years ago, and I'm using the Unupgradeable Windows Box from Hell (I swear, Lucifer himself must be responsible for my memory leaks). Until now, I'd been holding out to get a Santa Rosa MacBook Pro the day such a beast became available, presumably with Leopard. So now that Leopard's delayed, guess what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna buy a Santa Rosa MacBook Pro the day it shows up in the online Apple Store.

And I'm going to enjoy the fact that it's going to have the most incredibly solid operating system available. So what if it's not the newest thing around? It'll be gauranteed to run all of the software (multitrack audio recording/production/mastering) I need right out of the box with no tinkering and no bugs. I'll sit back and enjoy the solidness of the Glorious OSX 10.4.∞ Experience. :)

Then, probably with my first semester cash-back, I'll get giddy all over again with 10.5.1 or so. Friggin yeah! It'll be like a new computer all over again. Yessssss...

Though if they do really revamp the interface, I think Apple needs to reward themself with the XI designation. If they could actually build their own "windows emulator" from the ground up, thus supporting PC software totally natively... THAT would be a killer app. And a killer big hole for spyware and viruses... but a killer app, nonetheless. And a "killer-app" for stockholders.

[matticus008]

The only way Apple is really going to gain significant market share in the OS and the Computer world is to get inside mainstream business. [...]

When that happens, you'll see market share climb from the single digits to 10-20% easy. And that would be huge for Apple...
Why is that so many people have this monomaniacal obsession with Apple market share? The objective of Apple (or most other companies) is not global domination--there is no real advantage to having 100% market share, so why should it be a goal?

People may confuse the drive of any company to grow with the ultimate destination being full market saturation, but that's not how business works. There is an implicit need for balance, and all companies strive for that optimal point. Business development follows a Phillips Curve model--it will maximize revenue based on available resources (lots of low-margin products vs. fewer higher-margin products). That doesn't mean that 100% (or even 10%) market share is a goal.

All market share reflects is the relative rate of growth. It doesn't mean anything. Apple market share could theoretically fall, even as sales increase. Apple will go for making the most money--that doesn't mean increasing market share. If they can make the most money by focusing on a few products and selling them to a loyal base, that's what they're going to do. If market share goes up, attracting more developers and customers, that's a great bonus.

Though if they do really revamp the interface, I think Apple needs to reward themself with the XI designation.
We're not going to see an "OS XI" any time in the next several years, if it is ever used (which I personally doubt). They have spent too much time and money developing "OS X" as a brand (just as "Windows" is a brand) to change it. There very well could be an OS X, version 11.x, but version numbers themselves aren't really important. Microsoft can call Vista NT 6.0, but it's no better than 5.3. Even Apple has done this (skipping to OS 8, renaming it to OS 9). If the name changes, I think it will be to step away from "OS+Roman numeral" entirely.

[Bosunsfate]

Why is that so many people have this monomaniacal obsession with Apple market share? The objective of Apple (or most other companies) is not global domination--there is no real advantage to having 100% market share, so why should it be a goal?

People may confuse the drive of any company to grow with the ultimate destination being full market saturation, but that's not how business works. There is an implicit need for balance, and all companies strive for that optimal point. Business development follows a Phillips Curve model--it will maximize revenue based on available resources (lots of low-margin products vs. fewer higher-margin products). That doesn't mean that 100% (or even 10%) market share is a goal.

All market share reflects is the relative rate of growth. It doesn't mean anything. Apple market share could theoretically fall, even as sales increase. Apple will go for making the most money--that doesn't mean increasing market share. If they can make the most money by focusing on a few products and selling them to a loyal base, that's what they're going to do. If market share goes up, attracting more developers and customers, that's a great bonus.


I wouldn't consider myself as having a pathological obession with one idea or subject. However maybe you could read that as everyone on MacRumors. :p

For me, the relationship to market share was about an increase in sales, a signficant increase in sales. Apple's market share has increased about a perecent and that has a direct relationship to why Apple is selling more Macs than ever before.

Selling more Macs, means more people are using them. More people using them, means more companies will build software for them.

Right now, the pool of companies that build software for Macs, especially business software is pretty small....way too small.

Am I obessed with that? Of course...I work every day with my Dell, and I hate it...but until my Mac can do what I need at work...I'm stuck with it...:(

And until Apple has a much larger market share nothing will change.

P.S. I don't think of demonination by Apple as a good thing. In fact, I think it would be bad...any time someone is in too much control its a bad thing..

[micromarcie]

This kinda stinks for all the students who are looking to buy a computer in the fall.

[powermac_daddy]

what the hell is going on? this is going to screw up my plan big time. very disappointed. wtf!!!

[surferfromuk]

Apple is a car driving down the highway of life. That car is a Porsche.
Steve Jobs is at the wheel and we're all sat in the back seat shouting at the driver becuase he should have stopped at the last gas station and were worried were gonna get stranded. Steve looks in the mirror and mouths the words 'This is MY car!I say when we stop for gas.Now shut the FU and enjoy the ride'

Microsoft is a also a car driving down the highway of life. That car is a beaten up old wreck but it's had a nice shiny new paint job and some new fenders so from a distance it sort of looks nice. Steve Balmer is at the wheel and Bill Gates is in the front passenger seat occasionally grabbing the wheel as Balmer pulls a mooney at us as they sped by. As we see the rear of the M$ car we notice a lot of smoke coming out the tailpipe. It's making it kind of hard to see where we are going but it's ok cos Steve is a great driver and he knows where this road is leading!.

Steve looks round and tells us to hold on cos he's gonna nail it past those two idiots in the station wagon. Steve nails it and the engine thrums and the Apple Porsche races down the highway of life. We, the passengers, fall silent in awe as Steve effortlessly dodges the hubcaps and bits of faux wood trim that come bouncing off the M$ station wagon.

In other words -just enjoy the ride - whatever's happening at least were not in the m$ station wagon listing to Balmers wolf cries and watching as Bill weakly and sympathetically punches the air and cries 'right on' in a muffled voice.

(p. s: That iphone bloody well better have integrated gps!.)

[ejl10]

I'm starting grad school in August, and planned to pick up a MacBook this summer once Leopard came out. This is really too bad, because there's no way I'm going to upgrade mid semester and risk being computer-less for a few days.

I figured they'd tie in product updates with the Leopard release, too. Hope they still manage to get the next MacBook out. The discounted Dell bundle is looking better all the time!

[jamesmcd]

Man, all those times I have dissed peecee users saying that Vista keeps getting delayed. I guess I deserved the delay...

[Teddy's]

The worst part of all is that the iFone will be available in June '07 *only* in the USA.
Well anyway, the rest of the world will have Leopard before the iFone. :rolleyes:

[wvtbred]

what the hell is going on? this is going to screw up my plan big time. very disappointed. wtf!!!

ME TOO!

I have been planning to buy an iMac and was waiting for Leopard as well as the new hardware. I guess they won't release the new hardware until October as well which really sucks.

I have always used a Windows machine so maybe I will just go and buy a new Dell.

Way to go Apple you really are showing your true colors with this one.:mad:

[jamesmcd]

Way to go Apple you really are showing your true colors with this one.

Would you prefer an early release with a 2 page bug list in the disclaimer?

The late release sucks big time, but necessary.

[wvtbred]

Would you prefer an early release with a 2 page bug list in the disclaimer?

The late release sucks big time, but necessary.

and very MS like.

[driver.joe]

I'm not a mac user as of yet because still waiting for Leopard. I only know Microsoft and was hoping too change by now to apple but that's my luck. I've used Vista and it sucks that is why changing. So far I'm very disappointed not because of the wait but the reason!!! I also want them to get it right but do one damn thing at a time or apple will become just like Microsoft.

[CoreWeb]

and very MS like.

Except that MS would leave the 2-page list of bugs in. In fact, if Apple were MS, I'd say they would have gotten Leopard done on time - just, with a 2-page list of bugs. (Just wait for Service Pack 1)

[RRK]

We're not going to see an "OS XI" any time in the next several years, if it is ever used (which I personally doubt). They have spent too much time and money developing "OS X" as a brand (just as "Windows" is a brand) to change it. There very well could be an OS X, version 11.x, but version numbers themselves aren't really important. Microsoft can call Vista NT 6.0, but it's no better than 5.3. Even Apple has done this (skipping to OS 8, renaming it to OS 9). If the name changes, I think it will be to step away from "OS+Roman numeral" entirely.

OS XI will be called Steve 1.0.
:cool:

[Teddy's]

woah! lots of troll-like postings here!

Well, I have never hated the iFone. I think Tiger is greater than Vista.
I think I would be called a zealot or a "fanboi". However, None of the negative comments affect me. My Mac friends are sometimes pissed off at Apple, but they always like their products in the end. It is just funny to see the endless comments of "iHatethem"

Well, not only newbies troll these threads...
I don't think buying a Dell or whatever would be anything compared to the Mac experience. Even on the consumer side. There is *cough* bootcamp. Just use it if you can.

btw, I knew that Stella was not a girl.

[wvtbred]

woah! lots of troll-like postings here!

Well, I have never hated the iFone. I think Tiger is greater than Vista.
I think I would be called a zealot or a "fanboi". However, None of the negative comments affect me. My Mac friends are sometimes pissed off at Apple, but they always like their products in the end. It is just funny to see the endless comments of "iHatethem"

Well, not only newbies troll these threads...
I don't think buying a Dell or whatever would be anything compared to the Mac experience. Even on the consumer side. There is *cough* bootcamp. Just use it if you can.

btw, I knew that Stella was not a girl.

I am not trolling here I am serious. I have lurked on this forum for a long time and like the information and educated guesses posted here. With that said Apple isn't impressing me yet. Service in the local Apple store was luke warm at best and now after waiting for the new OS and hardware this crappy delay happens. If they let the new hardware go in June (not a good chance of that) and then the new OS in October then I could live with it.

As for October that is a terrible date because as it has been mentioned that's way after school starts and I think it will hurts sales.

[BigPrince]

snip

As for October that is a terrible date because as it has been mentioned that's way after school starts and I think it will hurts sales.

I think it will boost Leopard sales. People were going to buy computers right after WWDC07 one way or another. Now those people are caving in or just going to wait as soon as Santa Rosa is dropped into the notebook computers.

Then we have the EDU people who will wait till Aug/Sept, but will need it and get a computer with Tiger.


Now all those people who would of had Leopard ended up with Tiger, most will want to upgrade causing more purchases.

[justflie]

For me, this is annoying, somewhat disappointing, but certainly not the end of the world. I currently have a 20" intel CD iMac running 10.4.9. I wanted to buy an MBP this June with Leopard on it. So now that's not going to happend. But it's really not that big of a deal. My new plan is to buy the MBP in June (assuming it's updated, if not, I'm waiting til it is refreshed) and then will use my delicious edu discount for Leopard in October. Not really that big of a deal folks, if you need the hardware, buy it. If you don't, please be patient and stop complaining. Enough people have complained that I think we get the point. We don't need a "ditto" or "me too" post (or another 30 pages thereof). Lol, and if (ironically) this post is also a "me too" post copying something else, I'll apologize now, I'm not reading 3.6 million pages of comments attached to the article :). But seriously, worry not, we'll get a really nice finished product in October.:apple:

[wvtbred]

I think it will boost Leopard sales. People were going to buy computers right after WWDC07 one way or another. Now those people are caving in or just going to wait as soon as Santa Rosa is dropped into the notebook computers.

Then we have the EDU people who will wait till Aug/Sept, but will need it and get a computer with Tiger.


Now all those people who would of had Leopard ended up with Tiger, most will want to upgrade causing more purchases.

So when do you think the new hardware will come out? Will they show it at WWDC07?

[phillipjfry]

Quit your whining, folks. Don't you get it?

This is the answer to everyone who's been shouting about how there aren't any big "secret features" left, even though Apple has said so many times, because they would not release 10.5 without the developers having a chance to test/integrate said new features with their products.

How long is reasonable for them to do that?

Three months?

WWDC will see Apple showing EVERYTHING going into Leopard. Developers will get a late-release beta to test and work with. Apple has three months to squash any last-minute bugs that are sure to turn up.

This is not bad news. This is smart thinking.


June is the month of Apple

Leopard beta will be released, secret features revealed, I figure some hardware updates, iPhone released in US, and maybe a teaser about fullscreen ipod to go along with the update about the iphone.
Consumer credit cards will run hot this summer :cool:

[BigPrince]

So when do you think the new hardware will come out? Will they show it at WWDC07?

Yes, I think Leopard and hardware upgrades are totally unrelated.

People just lost it last week and just trying to make the situation much worse then it truly is.

People have already caved in who were waiting for WWDC.

[Eidorian]

Yes, I think Leopard and hardware upgrades are totally unrelated.

People just lost it last week and just trying to make the situation much worse then it truly is.

People have already caved in who were waiting for WWDC.I wonder where people got the idea that hardware and software releases are tied together. The Santa Rosa platform release is just around the corner.

[BigPrince]

I wonder where people got the idea that hardware and software releases are tied together. The Santa Rosa platform release is just around the corner.

same

[bobber205]

Now all Mac users can't laugh at Vista's delayed anymore... :p

I think we can still laugh. ;)

Vista was years behind schedule and they took out many of the features originally planned. Apple is only adding features and quality w/ the delay.

Pretty opposite. :D

[dopey220]

Bummer. I'm buying an MBP sometime this summer, I guess it won't have Leopard.

[wvtbred]

I wonder where people got the idea that hardware and software releases are tied together. The Santa Rosa platform release is just around the corner.

I know they are generally not connected but some posts here in the past had just that happening. If the new iMac comes out in June I will still buy it then upgrade once Leopard is solid.

[Kashchei]

I left on a business trip just before the big announcement on Thursday and I just found out today when I got back. I missed the initial shock, but after a couple of hours, one word came to mind that put everything in perspective: Copland. After waiting through that fiasco, I think I can wait until October, especially if it means that there really will be secret features in Leopard.

[iMacZealot]

^^^

Wow, Kashchei, thanks for the perspective! :)

[brettjohn]

i'm glad i got my machine when i did. a few mates were holding out 'till leopard was released to get theirs. now they don't know what to do. while i sit here with a big smile typing away on a super fast macbook pro hehe :D

[peharri]

I left on a business trip just before the big announcement on Thursday and I just found out today when I got back. I missed the initial shock, but after a couple of hours, one word came to mind that put everything in perspective: Copland. After waiting through that fiasco, I think I can wait until October, especially if it means that there really will be secret features in Leopard.

Heh.

There are plenty of projects that just didn't end up on time. Think of the gap between Rhapsody being available in beta form and it being obtainable (Mac OS X Server 1.0 - remember that?), and then between *that* and the first Mac OS X as we'd know it.

...and then the year or so between Mac OS X 10.0 and Jaguar, the first version of Mac OS X as we'd *want* it. Hard to imagine a time when Mac users genuinely had mixed feelings about whether it was worth "upgrading" (if it could be called that at all) from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X, but before Jaguar, that's genuinely how people felt.

So Leopard is delayed for *six months*. And it's being delayed for the best possible reasons, a company with stretched resources deciding it's better to do it right than to do it quickly. There are plenty of things I'd attack Apple for, I've done so on many occasions here and made myself pretty unpopular as a result, but on this issue, I think (from the available evidence) that Apple are doing the right thing, that this is no big deal, that there are plenty of bigger disappointments from the past.

Six month delay? As opposed to Taligent (next big thing to spun-off-and-never-heard-of-again), Copland (the wrong platform designed by the wrong people at the wrong time), Rhapsody (withheld), Mac OS X 10.0/1 (too early, sucked as a result), the dropping of the PowerPC line...

In a few months, a radical new version of Mac OS X will come out, which will have many features we already know are ahead of the field, and probably many more we don't know about yet. A small delay to get it right is not a cancellation, it's not Apple heading down the wrong path (even if they're following a second path that's unrelated to the Mac), it's not preventing us from getting something great, it's just a small delay to get it right.

[erockerboy]

And it's being delayed for the best possible reasons, a company with stretched resources deciding it's better to do it right than to do it quickly.

Amen.

[DefCon65]

First post here but I've been reading on this site for over a year now since my conversion to the "light side". Anyway, this one finally got me off my lazy behind to actually post something. I think there is much more at play here than Leopard itself and the reasons for the delay are more complicated than most realize, IMO. Before I get into that, though, I will say that I have never been one to criticize a company for delaying a product release. I didn't criticize MS for delaying Vista and I won't criticize Apple for delaying Leopard. My distaste for MS comes from so much more than the delays in Vista shipping but, having said that, there is a big difference between the release timeframes of major OS upgrades in the two companies. As for Vista, I don't like it, not because it's a MS product but because, well, because I don't like it. Having used OS X for over a year after 20 years of Windows, I guess I'm just spoiled. I really don't understand people who dislike a product because of the company that makes it. Vista is not a great OS and if Apple released I would say the same thing. People who are now bashing Apple because of the Leopard delay should ask themselves why? Is it because they see it as a loss to the hated MS much like your favorite team losing a sporting match?

Anyway on to my reasoning for the delay. I believe there are three major reasons for the delay and they all relate to this year being a major turning point for Apple. I don't believe it has anything to do with priorities or name changes or anything else sinister. The logic for me seems sound and, if I am correct, it speaks of a real brilliance on the part of the marketing people at Apple, if they play this properly.

So here we go:

1. Last year and early this year have seen a surge in Mac sales like never before in the past as more and more people (like myself) have found an easier, better way of computing. MS released Vista and it has been met with a lukewarm response at best from both the media and general public. This is a huge opportunity for Apple and they have exploited Vista's shortcomings at every opportunity. Apple needs to make the most of this and that means delivering Leopard as a complete as-bulletproof-as-possible upgrade. Rushing it to market in any way with any shortcomings puts it in the same class as Vista in the eye of the general public. This is one place where Apple's market share actually works in their favor because the delay of Leopard just ain't getting much press outside the Mac community. Most general users don't even know Leopard is coming so a delay doesn't affect the general impression of Apple as whole and certainly does not have the same impact that a rushed, buggy release of Leopard would. On the other hand, a compelete, stable release of Leopard with even just a few killer features will undoubtedly vault Apple to even further heights.

2. By timing the announcements, first of the "planned" release of Leopard (remember Apple never gave a definite date or even month, just a "spring 2007"), they have kept at least some of the focus of the IT world on their products. Combine this with an announcement of the iPhone early in the year and the anticipation it has generated along with the release of the Apple TV, plus the rumored touch screen iPod coming in the third quarter and a possible pattern starts to emerge. Apple seems to be quietly keeping at least some industry focus on their products.

3. Here's the real kicker. With an October release, Apple moves ahead to a point where any excitement over Vista has waned and many people have become frustrated with Vista as an OS. In the interim, Apple releases the Apple TV, the iPhone, and (IMO anyway) a new iPod and the focus builds over the year with the public hearing more and more about Apple. People buy the phone and then all those iPhone, iPod and Apple Tv users out there get hit with Leopard, a new operating system from the same company that makes their other gadgets, with some killer new features and, here's the kicker, at the beginning of the busiest shopping season of the year!

So Apple slowly builds anticipation through the year with new products that get people talking and buying Apple gear and then right before Christmas, here comes Leopard? Vista what? How many Macs will that sell?

I know Apple will lose some sales due to Leopard's delay but I don't think it will be significant at all compared to what they will sell in the fall. IMO, if this is the scenario they are working towards then it is a truly brilliant piece of marketing.

Just my take on a possible scenario.............

[arkmannj]

My biggest gripe isn't so much that Leopard is delayed, but that it's delayed until Fall Semester is 1/2 way through.
(August, September, <October>, November, December)

It's just far enough into the semester that if students need a new computer that they can't really wait for Leopard, and then two months later will likely shell out more cash for the new OS, when it could have just come with it.

I know Apple Edu discounts are pretty good, but still for some students that could have gone for a good couple months of Ramen-Noodles to survive on :p

Anyhow I hope Apple can get the bug list gone by then, and get their spiffy-secret features so well implemented and cool that we will all be in great aww and forget that Leopard was even late.

[MacPomme]

I suspect a couple of reasons for the delay in OS X 10.5:

1. Multi-touch functionality is to be included, and its not fully supported by the iLife and iWork applications yet.

2. Muli-touch requires new technology to be overlaid on screens and new firmware.

3. New mouse needs to be available at release to provide multi-touch functionality to Macs without multi-touch sensitive screens.

4. Development and QA resources were obviously channelled to the iPhone project until the last couple of weeks.

5. OS X 10.5.1 will be released right before the Xmas buying season.

MacPomme

[iJawn108]

The nest version of Chess is holding up leopard.

[Parsa]

OK Apple, so now you need to do something to make loyal Mac users happy.
How about another offering of $200 off an ipod with a Mac purchase for students and educators like a few years ago... Or maybe a raincheck on a free version of 10.5 if you buy a Mac in the next several months.

:p

[Andrew D.]

I guess that scratches waiting off the list. Might as well purchase Leopard when it does release then. I'll just save my money and once I have enough, pull the trigger.

[generationxwing]

Looks like I'll be buying my iMac in the next month, and will probably never upgrade to Leopard. Once I buy a computer I rarely, if ever, upgrade the OS. Oh well, at least I'll have my iMac.

[Ingster]

IMHO the delay in leopard shouldn't be too much of a problem for students etc, as christmas will be round the corner and maybe (dunno how it will work) 10.5.1 may be out with less bugs ;)

I'm gettin my MB with ipod and apple hi-fi at the end of the month, can't wait!!! :D

[macwatcher]

Big whoop. The development cycle and overall delay is still INCREDIBLY less than Windows Vista. Apple still knows how to do it right.

INCREDIBLY LESS!!

[Counter]

Big whoop. The development cycle and overall delay is still INCREDIBLY less than Windows Vista. Apple still knows how to do it right.

INCREDIBLY LESS!!

So long as we aren't as crap as Microsoft, everything is fine! Microsoft is the benchmark!

[jessep28]

It has to be realized also that it probably irritates Apple as much as the users that the final product isn't ready by a targeted release date. Missing deadlines costs money for Apple in addition to lost revenue. There are a lot of people who are waiting on a hardware purchase for Leopard, in addition to the software.

Let alone that they lose possible Windows converts who could be captured based on a product roll out.

This can be a sign that Apple is trying to incorporate too much into the OS to the point where the iPhone tangent made a real difference. Of course building a new major software version is much like building a new attraction. Sometimes, you run into unforeseen problems or have to divert resources and that equals delays.

Don't worry folks, I'm sure this delay will be all but forgotten once it comes out.

[WhiteShadow]

no matter when leopard is released I am buying a new mac, well no matter when anything mac is released I switch up my mac line up.

[jnash]

guys you never know what Apple will do, alot of people was having this problem with Windows PC's and people didnt want to buy a new PC until Windows Vista came out, thats when they started the free upgrade to Vista program which worked out great. Apple may take the same marketing strategy and give customers who purchase a new mac a free upgrade to the new o/s.

[t700]

I'll hope they show it at WWDC07

[Mtseilback]

i agree with jnash. maybe there will be a “update your OS for free if you bought a new mac up to 3 months before the release of 10.5″ coupon.

i bought my ibook 2 years ago, 2-3 months before tiger was released. when tiger came out 2 months (or so) later, i was given a free upgrade disk for tiger… MAYBE we can hope they’ll do something similar again for leopard...:)

[BigPrince]

guys you never know what Apple will do, alot of people was having this problem with Windows PC's and people didnt want to buy a new PC until Windows Vista came out, thats when they started the free upgrade to Vista program which worked out great. Apple may take the same marketing strategy and give customers who purchase a new mac a free upgrade to the new o/s.


This is not going to happen.

1. Apple has a much smaller user base and thus a much smaller percentage of people even know what Leopard is. The average customer only knows OS X, not the different versions of it.

1a. Since there is a lot less people that know about it theres a lot less talk about it through the media and what not. It's also not been 5+ years since the last update to our OS and not totally different unlike Vista where it was supposed to be mind blowing which contributed to peoples knowledge of it.

2. Apple does not care if you wait until October. They couldn't careless if they sell the computers in June or in October. Both times they get a similar margin on the purchase. Its not like thats the only thing they sell and they will go out of business if they there is a buying drought.

3. EDU sales will most likely happen one way or another because students NEED there computer by September generally. Schools purchases will still go through because Summer is pretty much the most effective time to get a project like that done.

I personally think any talk of "coupons" or "free upgrades" are just people that are kidding themselves.


We might see something for people who bought it the week before or something, but not 3 months.

[sellitman]

Looks like I'll be buying my iMac in the next month, and will probably never upgrade to Leopard. Once I buy a computer I rarely, if ever, upgrade the OS. Oh well, at least I'll have my iMac.

It's only 139 bucks. Upgrading my iMac will be a breeze. I will put off my Macbook purchase though until the new system is shipping though. I bet I won't be alone.

[BigPrince]

was my case so compelling that no one had a counter?