What We Learn From Leopard's Delay [Archive]

MacRumors

Apr 13, 2007, 12:28 AM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

While the response (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=296020) from today's announcement that Mac OS 10.5 Leopard would be delayed until October (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/04/12/apple-delays-leopard-release/) continues to pour in, there are some aspects that can be gleaned from the announcement as well.

A delay until October was actually predicted (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/23/mac-os-x-10-5-leopard-delayed-until-october/) in a Page 2 rumor by DigiTimes. While Apple has claimed more broadly that the delay was due to a shift in resources to the iPhone project, DigiTimes said that the delay would be due to Apple's plan to "have its new OS support Windows Vista through an integrated version of Boot Camp."

While Apple has long-claimed that Boot Camp will ship with Leopard, and the latest version of the Boot Camp public beta (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/28/apple-releases-boot-camp-1-2/) did incorporate Windows Vista support, DigiTimes was careful to refer to an "integrated version" of Boot Camp in their story. This specificity was noted by Arn (http://normalkid.com/2007/03/29/digitimes-could-still-be-right/) in a blog posting on the matter, suggesting that "integrated" Boot Camp might be something closer to Parallels virtualization.

None of Leopard's "Top Secret" features have yet to leak from Apple. However, this integrated version of Boot Camp which has yet to be seen in previous developer builds may point to one such feature.

While DigiTimes' rumor accuracy has been poor (http://normalkid.com/2007/03/23/digitimescoms-poor-apple-rumor-accuracy/) in the past, this is the latest in a string of stories from them to be corroborated (LED-backlit notebooks (http://www.macrumors.com/2007/01/03/apple-led-backlit-laptops/), Apple Notebooks with NAND Caching (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/01/05/apple-notebook-with-robson-caching/)).

pknz

Apr 13, 2007, 12:31 AM

I learnt nothing.

ziggyonice

Apr 13, 2007, 12:33 AM

integrated = wonderful

iamcrazyed

Apr 13, 2007, 12:33 AM

Apple is like a pretty girl: Gets your hopes up, but will break your heart every time.

*sob*

Anyone got a hug?

twoodcc

Apr 13, 2007, 12:35 AM

I learnt nothing.

yeah, pretty much :rolleyes:

i mean, October is a long ways away....why not July or August.....September?

Multimedia

Apr 13, 2007, 12:36 AM

Makes the 8 core a publicly available developer's platform. Load the beta after WWDC and get busy. :rolleyes: :eek:

mcarnes

Apr 13, 2007, 12:36 AM

Apple is like a pretty girl: Gets your hopes up, but will break your heart every time.

*sob*

Anyone got a hug?

Gets your hopes up? Bah, pretty girls are a dime a dozen. You should adopt that philosophy early my son.

chubad

Apr 13, 2007, 12:37 AM

Err. What did we actually learn? Sounds like a load of nothing to me. Trying to paint a rosy picture are we?

Curtis72

Apr 13, 2007, 12:37 AM

I think Digitimes heard rumors of the delay and then speculated a reason for it.
They were half right as you said. But the integrated Boot Camp was one ******* speculative conclusion. A conclusion that most rational people won't believe.

I mean if that was even close to being true, then Apple should get out of the OS game and migrate all of their applications to Windows. Seriously. Bootcamp is a tool to sway Windows users to the Mac.

And while this delay truly sux, I can live with it. I prefer quality more than anthing else.

EricNau

Apr 13, 2007, 12:39 AM

An “integrated” version of Boot Camp would be something closer to Parallels for Mac OS X. More specifically, something closer to Parellels’ Coherence mode which allows Windows applications to run side-by-side with Mac applications under Mac OS X.
How do we know this?

To me, integrated doesn't necessarily mean it's any different than the Boot Camp we have now, with the only difference being that it comes bundled with the OS.

Although we can always hope for the best! :)

iamcrazyed

Apr 13, 2007, 12:39 AM

Pretty girls are a dime a dozen. You should adopt that philosophy early my son.

Teach me your ways, Sensei. Wax on, wax off doesn't cut it when it comes to Mac rumors!

wakerider017

Apr 13, 2007, 12:42 AM

Are you inferring that "integrated" means a virtual OS running inside of OS 10.5?

Or are you just saying that Boot Camp will ship with 10.5 and it will be similar to what be have now (Boot to a Windows OS)

I am not really sure what you are getting at. :confused:

arn

Apr 13, 2007, 12:42 AM

It's simple guys... Digitimes said "October delay for Leopard because of integrated Boot Camp".

You can believe they got lucky with the "October" date when everyone thought they were crazy, or you can pause and realize they had some real information and therefore should be paid attention to

The sources pointed out that the launch delay is not due to software design problems with Leopard but instead is attributed to Apple's plan to have its new OS support Windows Vista through an integrated version of Boot Camp.

You can interpret it how you want, but my interpretation was posted here (http://normalkid.com/2007/03/29/digitimes-could-still-be-right/):

An “integrated” version of Boot Camp would be something closer to Parallels for Mac OS X. More specifically, something closer to Parellels’ Coherence mode which allows Windows applications to run side-by-side with Mac applications under Mac OS X.

I'm not saying it's necessarily true. I think Apple entering this sort of market would be wrong, but the Digitimes' report is worth noting.

arn

ErikGrim

Apr 13, 2007, 12:43 AM

diamond3

Apr 13, 2007, 12:43 AM

Apple is like a pretty girl: Gets your hopes up, but will break your heart every time.

*sob*

Anyone got a hug?

That was funny. I like how they had to put a story out to try and make it sound like its not that bad of thing.

wmmk

Apr 13, 2007, 12:44 AM

I learned that some people whine a lot. I also learned that Tiger is a great OS that is still ahead of Vista.

randyharris

Apr 13, 2007, 12:44 AM

What I learned is that I much prefered Apple's set expectation that Leopard would be released before summer.

I realize the iPhone is new, ground breaking in some regards, and possible another iPod for Apple.

But it would certainly be nice if Leopard weren't delayed.

Tadros86

Apr 13, 2007, 12:45 AM

I believe the Windows thing, for the fact alone that, they said they were going to give "nearly complete" copies out to developers. That alone says, hey we are basically done but something is holding us back from actually releasing this thing. I also remember a few years back with the iPod, oh it's for music and we aren't planning on expanding it any further, and now it's a movie player and PHONE! Apple lies too much haha.

MasterJediDan

Apr 13, 2007, 12:48 AM

sportsfanMAW

Apr 13, 2007, 12:49 AM

arn

Apr 13, 2007, 12:49 AM

Tsk tsk. Didn't Apple already come out and publicly deny rumors that BootCamp would be like Parallels?

But then again "people don't want video on their iPods" and "Apple wants to keep the computer and TV separate" :p

and just 2 weeks ago:

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/03/24/leopard-still-on-schedule/

...an Apple representative "confirmed the reports are wrong and Leopard is still scheduled to ship in this spring as they previously announced."...

:)

jaw04005

Apr 13, 2007, 12:52 AM

It will be interesting to watch the development of Parallels. I could see Apple acquiring Parallels (or a similar company) within the next few months, and incorporating their virtual machine technology directly into the operating system.

TheAnswer

Apr 13, 2007, 12:52 AM

So we've learned Digitimes went up a notch in credibility...

...Thinksecret dropped down a couple more...

...and that we must boycott the iPhone so that Steve doesn't get the idea that diverting resources away from the OS is something that goes unpunished.

wakerider017

Apr 13, 2007, 12:55 AM

So who is Macrumors and who is Arn.

I thought they were both creators of the site? Seems like they have somewhat conflicting views.

A little clarification would be nice. Thanks.

macklos

Apr 13, 2007, 12:58 AM

I've learned that I now have until christmas until the applications I use within OS X to be supported by Leopard. Fine by me, Tiger works.

EricNau

Apr 13, 2007, 01:00 AM

I learned that I'm going to save a lot of money. ;) :D

luggnutt

Apr 13, 2007, 01:00 AM

there are some aspects that can be gleamed from the announcement as well.

Gleam = a flash of light.
GLEAN = to slowly gather, esp information

adrianm

Apr 13, 2007, 01:01 AM

yeah, pretty much :rolleyes:

i mean, October is a long ways away....why not July or August.....September?

At least it's not over 2 years with half the functionality jettisoned, like Vista.

BiikeMike

Apr 13, 2007, 01:01 AM

So who is Macrumors and who is Arn.

I thought they were both creators of the site? Seems like they have somewhat conflicting views.

A little clarification would be nice. Thanks.

Macrumors is the site, Arn is a person :)

I kind of agree with Multimedia, I learned that I'm getting a quad core, the octo is a piece without an OS that can make full use of it

Veritas&Equitas

Apr 13, 2007, 01:02 AM

So who is Macrumors and who is Arn.

You have over 500 posts and you don't know this already?! Tsk tsk :mad:

Superdrive

Apr 13, 2007, 01:04 AM

Like most rumors, only parts of them are true. I suspect either DigiTimes was lucky or only partially right with the October date.

As stated in the other thread, this delay is a Good Thing. We will work with a solid feature-rich Leopard (which is it nowhere near currently) and we know exactly when everything is coming. My iPhone should tie me over in June. I'll be okay.

wakerider017

Apr 13, 2007, 01:05 AM

You have over 500 posts and you don't know this already?! Tsk tsk :mad:

I thought Arn ran the site.

Man I am confused.

nagromme

Apr 13, 2007, 01:06 AM

Score 1 for DigiTimes--but that feature alone, Vista support, seems unlikely to be worth delaying Apple's OWN OS for. It's more complictated than that I think.

We may know soon, though, since the dev preview in June is going to be "feature complete".... so they say.

As for the word "integrated," I can't read too much into that. It's a term I might use myself for when Boot Camp "becomes a feature" of Leopard as expected. Integrated can simply mean "part of the package"--it doesn't necessarily imply virtualization, which would be removing the "Boot" from Boot Camp :)

arn

Apr 13, 2007, 01:08 AM

So who is Macrumors and who is Arn.

MacRumors.com = the site
Arn = the founder, senior editor
Longofest = editor (who wrote this MacRumors story, referencing a previous blog entry I had made)

I can see how you could be confused if you thought I wrote it.

arn

slb

Apr 13, 2007, 01:12 AM

For crying out loud, "integrated" just means it'll be shipping with Leopard, as opposed to the publicly separate download available now. Have we not learned to avoid building belief systems off of rumors at this point? Can we not just do what Apple wants us to do--quietly enjoy what we have until they announce something new?

wakerider017

Apr 13, 2007, 01:17 AM

MacRumors.com = the site
Arn = the founder, senior editor
Longofest = editor (who wrote this MacRumors story, referencing a previous blog entry I had made)

I can see how you could be confused if you thought I wrote it.

arn

Thanks for clearing that up.

EricNau

Apr 13, 2007, 01:20 AM

As for the word "integrated," I can't read too much into that. It's a term I might use myself for when Boot Camp "becomes a feature" of Leopard as expected. Integrated can simply mean "part of the package"--it doesn't necessarily imply virtualization, which would be removing the "Boot" from Boot Camp :)
Ya - exactly my point.

Plus, I personally don't think Apple is interested in incorporating Windows any further.

Object-X

Apr 13, 2007, 01:21 AM

Mark Kuroda

Apr 13, 2007, 01:28 AM

GimmeSlack12

Apr 13, 2007, 01:30 AM

Jovian9

Apr 13, 2007, 01:30 AM

We learn that a lot of people on this forum are a bunch of whinny little ...

Apple is becoming Microsoft, OS X is worse than Vista, I hate the iPhone, Apple's loosing it, Apple's lying, Apple doesn't care about computers, Apple's trying to do too many things, Apple sucks, Apple doesn't care about my feelings, ect. You're all a bunch of drama queens.

Have drink, smoke some weed, whatever, just relax. Patience.

Hahaha. Well stated.

Didn't Jaguar/Panther and/or Tiger ship early? I thought one of them did, which means to bring balance back to the OSX release universe we need a late release of Leopard :) Or at least that makes me feel better about having to wait until October. Plus Tiger is running perfect for me on both a G5 and Core Duo so I'm in no hurry to upgrade.

I learned that Apple is not willing to rush their OS out just to meet a deadline that they put on themselves at the sacrifice of the features they want in it and the bugs they want to exclude (unlike Vista).

macfan881

Apr 13, 2007, 01:34 AM

actaully didnt the invites to the wwdc throw in the term of someting as we will give u a un"Paralle look into 10.5 i think maybe that could be a hint into apple doing the vm feature

artpease

Apr 13, 2007, 01:38 AM

At least it's not over 2 years with half the functionality jettisoned, like Vista.
And how do we know that?

I am very disappointed as this is more than Leopard, but everything that relies on Leopard...it's going to be a very long summer:(

drewyboy

Apr 13, 2007, 01:42 AM

And how do we know that?

I am very disappointed as this is more than Leopard, but everything that relies on Leopard...it's going to be a very long summer:(

my thoughts exacxtly.

ortuno2k

Apr 13, 2007, 01:44 AM

What I learned?

That Apple is indeed shifting their priorities around and it's becoming more of a consumer electronic company to cater the mainstream public and neglecting their real business, Macs & software.

I knew that dropping "Computer" from their name would have such consequences. They didn't do it just 'cause it was nice'n short.

Multimedia

Apr 13, 2007, 01:46 AM

I've learned that I now have until christmas until the applications I use within OS X to be supported by Leopard. Fine by me, Tiger works.Which means MacWorld Expo January 15-18 '08 (http://macworldexpo.com/live/20/) will be Leopard's applications' real premiere. So it's the January 15, 2008 SteveNote countdown already. :eek:

Wonder what the impact this delay will have on Adobe's Master Collection due to ship in July. :confused:

mac 2005

Apr 13, 2007, 01:47 AM

As a geezer who went to college at a time when the Apple Macintosh was the latest and greatest technology, my only problem with the delay for Leopard is:

a) Apple's arrogance at making fun of Vista. If you can't mind your own house first, then don't try to knock the foundation from out beneath someone else's home.

b) Why should I buy that shiny new iMac I so desperately covet right now when it's clear that the one I really want won't materialize until October? I read several postings on this site today and yesterday indicating that people like me are a "bore" for raising legitimate questions, but how else does Apple learn? (I just can't bring myself to feel guilty because Jobs is a BILLIONAIRE and one of the richest people on the planet. Boo-hoo! that he chose the iPhone over the Macintosh, but he did the same trick back in the day between the Macintosh team and the Lisa people, but I guess it's only malcontents who remember that story.)

I choose to spend my money wisely. I have paid thousands of dollars over the years to enjoy Apple products, most of which have failed for reasons unknown to me. Only a couple of which were through my own clumsiness.

That doesn't mean that I can't ask an honest question about my next Apple purchase.

Shanesan

Apr 13, 2007, 01:49 AM

mac 2005

Apr 13, 2007, 01:55 AM

Hahaha. Well stated.

Didn't Jaguar/Panther and/or Tiger ship early? I thought one of them did, which means to bring balance back to the OSX release universe we need a late release of Leopard :) Or at least that makes me feel better about having to wait until October. Plus Tiger is running perfect for me on both a G5 and Core Duo so I'm in no hurry to upgrade.

I learned that Apple is not willing to rush their OS out just to meet a deadline that they put on themselves at the sacrifice of the features they want in it and the bugs they want to exclude (unlike Vista).

If you find the delay of Leopard funny, then you probably don't remember how unfunny many of us found the premature launch of OS X to be. OS X was not ready for primetime in many of the ways that Vista is not ready for primetime.

I'm okay with Gates being less than honest for a lot of reasons that I hope you already understand. By the same logic, Jobs & Co. should be held to a higher standard. It is Jobs, after all, that gave Gates the proverbial keys to the kingdom because he was so afraid of IBM and Xerox PARC didn't understand what it had.

At the same time, the shortcomings of the iPhone are far more compelling than Jobs' rationale for pulling people off of Leopard development. C'mon. You could drive a truck through these holes.

Does Apple really need 1 percent of the cellphone market in lieu of its CORE MARKET? The iPhone is beautiful, but when Jobs throws the Macintosh under the bus for a cellphone, shouldn't we begin to question whether the "emperor" of Apple is wearing the same "clothes" as the emperor of Microsoft? (In other words, they're both naked.)

Jookbox

Apr 13, 2007, 01:55 AM

a delay for added bootcamp support is worth it for me.

TheAnswer

Apr 13, 2007, 01:58 AM

Here here. We will not be moved!

Sing fellow Mac OS Lovers!!! Boycott the iPhone!!! Seize all imports of black turtlenecks - hit Steve where it really hurts...at the neck! A one and a two...

sube a nacer conmigo, hermano.
Dame la mano desde la profunda zona de tu dolor diseminado
no volverás del fondo de las rocas
no volverás del tiempo subterráneo
no volverá tu voz endurecida
no volverán tus ojos taladrados
yo vengo a hablar por vuestra boca muerta
a través de la tierra juntad todos los silenciosos labios derramados

y desde el fondo habladme toda esta larga noche
como si yo estuviera con vosotros anclado
contadme todo, cadena a cadena, eslabón a eslabón, y paso a paso
afilad los cuchillos que guardasteis
ponedlos en mi pecho y en mi mano
como un río de rayos amarillos
como un río de tigres enterrados
y dejadme llorar horas, días, años, edades ciegas, siglos estelares

dadme el silencio, el agua, la esperanza,
dadme la lucha, el hierro, los volcanes
apegadme los cuerpos como imanes
acudid a mis venas y a mi boca
hablad por mis palabras y mi sangre

estribillo: (chorus)

no, no, no nos moverán! no, no nos moverán!
como un árbol firme junto al río
no nos moverán.

unidos en la lucha, no nos moverán
unidos en la lucha, no nos moverán
como un árbol firme junto al río
no nos moverán
no, no, no nos moverán! no, no, no nos moverán!
como un árbol firme junto al río
no nos moverán

unidos en la huelga, no, no, no nos moverán!
unidos en la huelga, no, no, no nos moverán!
como un árbol firme junto al río
no nos moverán, no nos moverán!

And for the vocally challenged...you can get it on iTunes...here (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=2559266&s=143441&i=2559075). :D

Lyrics by Joan Báez - who dated Steve Jobs back in the 70s.

Cosmoza

Apr 13, 2007, 02:02 AM

:( i wanted to switch this summer to laptop with Leopard.

JZ Wire

Apr 13, 2007, 02:07 AM

RedDragon870503

Apr 13, 2007, 02:17 AM

I learned it could be worse.

Like a fine wine, Leopard must age first...

yeaaah...

boer

Apr 13, 2007, 02:20 AM

I think people are taking Apple's iPhone excuse way too seriously. Come on, you do not actually believe that to be true, do you? That iPhone explanation is just an attempt to spin something positive from the fact that Leopard is being delayed.

I am very dissappointed by this developent myself, but I do not believe for a second iPhone project is to blame. There are some other diffuculties in the Leo project or major features being implemented which have caused the delay.

Xapplimatic

Apr 13, 2007, 02:26 AM

The REAL reason for the Leopard delay is that Apple is secretly working on the secret features.. The biggest of which will be support for installing OS X on a standard PC as Apple shifts their business from a hardware model to a software model and directly competes with Microsoft... (ARGHH! Ducks as Apple Mice fly through the air at me..) If you think about it, with all the people pissed off at Microsoft because Vista won't work on existing systems, Apple can move in right now and save the day with a version of OS X that will work as an alternative to Vista and new hardware.. :)

Blue Velvet

Apr 13, 2007, 02:30 AM

What we also learn from Leopard's delay is that Apple's secretive ways make things very difficult for planning, costing and implementing potential enterprise and small business solutions.

While it's no big deal to them, they just lost the sales of 6-8 packs of Leopard as we'll move the studio to Tiger this summer instead. In our case, the OS is merely a vehicle for running Quark 7 and Creative Suite 3 and we need a minimum of 10.4.8 for that to happen.

I can also understand some level of secrecy around flagship products, especially those crucial to the bottom line, but sometimes it seems that things are taken to ridiculous degrees leading to the hasty backtracking and mixed signals that we've seen over the past couple of months.

DJ OJ

Apr 13, 2007, 02:41 AM

Don't you have to wait 2 more years for the iPhone in japan....so this is like all, making me wait a lot. Darn.

P.S. Maybe I will just ask for leopard on Christmas...

TheAnswer

Apr 13, 2007, 02:44 AM

One more song of protest...hastly adapted from Peter, Paul and Mary's "There But For Fortune"...the vastly superior and more meaningful original available on iTunes here (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=797083&s=143441&i=797067).

Show me the prison, show me the jail
Show me the OS whose face is growin' stale
And I'll show you system with so many reasons why
There but for fortune, go you or go I
You and I.

Show me the alley, show me the train
Show me the Finder that acts as a brain
And I'll show you a system with many reasons why
there but for fortune, go you or go I
You and I.

Show me the famine, show me the frail
Show the poor Leopard, they’ve chopped off his tail
And I'll show you system with so many reasons why
There but for fortune, go you or go I
You and I.

Show me the country where iPhones must fall
Show me the yuppies with no one to call
And I'll show you a system with many reasons why
There but for fortune, go you or go I
You and I.
You and I.

There but for fortune, go you or go I
You and I.

¡Viva La Huelga!

crystalcube

Apr 13, 2007, 02:53 AM

If the issue with BootCamp is true then what we learn is that now OS X plans will depend on compatibility with MS Windows OS.
Does that mean future of OS X will depend on compatibilities and releases from Microsoft OS ? :confused:

The most important thing to learn is that Apple didn't just removed "Computer" from the name but are transitioning to a CE company and probably Mac/ OS X are low priority now. Maybe the day is not far when updates to OS X are delayed because new version of iPod Nano requires more attention ;)

Georg Geher

Apr 13, 2007, 02:54 AM

Blast it Apple, we just keep waiting...and waiting...and waiting for Leopard. First, Macworld. Then, about half a year later, WWDC '07. Now, October. Damn the iPhone, we want our OS. The iPhone has way too many strings attached for it to make them a huge amount of money. Just give us Leopard. Blast it, now that we have to wait until October they had better have the LED screens on the MacBook by then. And maybe faster processors too. I keep waiting for Leopard to buy my MacBook. For now I'm stuck with win-doze xp, so Leopard is essentially my lifesaver.

absolutly FULLACK! summer comes and i hve to sit inside because the powerbook display is too poor to use it outside...THANKS A LOT. and all because of this stupid "all in one" iPhone (i mean PHONE!) or .......... VISTA???

BAH. this day is wrecked...steve.:mad:

motulist

Apr 13, 2007, 03:09 AM

Megabyte

Apr 13, 2007, 03:52 AM

As a developer myself (sadly not on the :apple: platform :( ) I don't believe the reason for the delay, large projects slip, it's difficult bringing large complex systems in on time and on budget, usually unknowns creep in, and delays happen (or features get dropped). With Vista hitting the streets in the same time frame :apple: cannot avoid the comparison [ignoring the fact they encourage it] and so Leopard has to be good, very good, it must blow us away, otherwise their market share will drop not rise [as I expect it to do] and an opportunity will have been missed!

M$ have definitely blundered with Vista, 5 years resource and a so so product at the end. They will keep their market share simply because from January new PCs can only carry Vista.

This delay is in fact good news...

October will be an ideal time to strike. Christmas is the peek buying period...period. A launch in the northern summer would go largely unnoticed people are outside, their minds are not on their computers!

With new hardware launched with Leopard and the iPhone in ascendancy the marketing potential is huge. A new wave of switchers could materialize. We may even hear the media using the term "the iPhone halo effect"!

One thing I have learnt from this delay is I made the right decision to switch last December, I'd been sat waiting for Leopard and the C2D for the previous 18 months watching this site [oh this is my first post BTW] and don't regret it. I wanted to see a Leopard Vista shoot out to decide which way to go , but Vista was looking disappointing [and delayed] and my ageing P3 (yep I said P3) was on it's last legs when ooops a black macbook took my fancy!

Tiger does not disappoint and is as good as vista IMO and well Leopard can only be better...it will undoubtedly be worth the wait!

On a complete aside Parallels was a key component to making the switch , being able to run M$ Visual studio and therefore take work home made the choice a no brainer.

spotlight07

Apr 13, 2007, 03:56 AM

That was funny. I like how they had to put a story out to try and make it sound like its not that bad of thing.

The pretty girl joke made me laugh too.

Remember when PC told everyone at the WWDC to take a break? I guess Apple sort of did.

But the delay did immediately make me think of this rumor. October. I didn't believe it before. And I still don't. I'm in shock. October!

But honestly, if Jobs wanted to tick off Gates more than anything else, what else could he do? Well, how about a Wine/Parallels incorporation into Leopard? And (I really hope this one) an Office killer in the form of iLife/iWork. The perfect plan to phase out Windows like they did with Classic. Just a thought.

brianmita

Apr 13, 2007, 04:03 AM

...but I'm willing to guess, if not hope, that Apple is introducing social networking on the OS level in leopard. As much as I'm embarassed to say it, (http://www.myspace.com/brianmita) I'm willing to wait for that.

think about it, they have all the tools...iphoto, imovie, itunes, ichat, garage band, safari, 'netwide bonjour, .mac and all that infrastructure the Akamai deal made them back in the day. Why let all the myspaces, friendsters, and facebooks have all the fun in a browser, when you can consolidate all that in a Mac?

Lets face it. as much as we all love/hate MySpace for being opportunistic/antagonistic to its members, were miffed by Friendster not making a good idea great, and Facebook taking really good steps toward an ideal social network, none helps more to assuage privacy concerns than a family computer. If I had kids, and .mac was my social network where I could involve my kids safely, I'd be much more apt to buy a mac so they can hang with their friends online while keeping away from predators. If I were a single teacher, I'd love to be able to keep an online relationship with my students, while keeping my single life private. Potential employers too. There are many advantages to bringing social networking to the desktop.

do you remember back when firewire was supposed to be the "golden convergence"? Do you remember back when the Macintosh brought the personal in PC?

Social networking is just software, and what better way to take advantage of it, than incorporating it into the widget?

My guess is that Apple releases a public beta for a desktop based social networking tools in iLife and leopard at wwdc which runs until october for final release. Of course, I'd like to see a free expanded .mac account for every person that buys a copy of leopard, whether it's with new mac or not.

If I'm wrong, then I'll be disappointed.

call me one of the crazy ones. ;-)

iMikeT

Apr 13, 2007, 04:03 AM

I'm not planning on using Windoze ever again. Why do the rest of us have to suffer the wait if Boot Camp is not a feature that we may not ever use?

Hunabku

Apr 13, 2007, 04:04 AM

I learned that Apple has spread themselves too thin. You can call it growing pains if you like, but with the all the work going into atv and iphone, Apple seems to not have the resources available to deliver on its basics. If you believe Apple's official reason for the delay anyway.

Here, here. And I don't care if others think that those of us with serious criticism of Apple are drama queening. Apple needs to hear this.

Apple is not microsoft, so lets stop comparisons as excuses. We have a legitimate concern that our most admired and trusted partner is loosing its computer focus and needs to expand/restructure in such a way that apple computers can continue the mecurial growth that they so deserve.

Apple has dropped the ball in the past and those of us who remember are probably most inclined to hold apples arse to the fire!

xnu

Apr 13, 2007, 04:21 AM

It is pretty simple, the guy at Apple who is in charge of Boot Camp is locked in a cubicle working on something for the iPhone and Steve won't let him out until he is done. Bad, bad, bad Apple worker guy, stop taking bathroom breaks and finish your master's work.

Much Ado

Apr 13, 2007, 04:31 AM

OS X.4 April 2005

Two-and-a-half years later...

OS X.5

That's half the time it took M$ build Vista from scratch, and Leopard, for me, has a certain 'meh' factor to it.

I mean, 30 months for Time Machine and 64-bit support?

Apple HAVE to accept that their little team of uber-developers cannot do everything in a company this big. They NEED to hire more talent and get more R+D because at the moment it feels like they're still trying to do everything in Steve Jobs' garage, and have realised they have run out of space and manpower.

MA.

cammoattard

Apr 13, 2007, 04:32 AM

I am a windows user and have been a windows user for over 10 years now. I have two friends who are apple users. I decided last year after watching the WWDC'06 keynote that i would be getting a mac and that i would wait until Leopard so that i can buy it with the macbook. Now that leopard is delayed i can't do that.

I am still a huge supporter of Microsoft and Vista, but understand how where people are coming from when they complain about the delays and problems with vista, but guess what, Apple is now just as bad, delaying there operating system that long.

What i don't get is how they had to take resources from the Leopard team to complete the iphone on time when the iphone is being released next month, so if it was only recent that they took resources from the leopard team shouldn't leopard only be delayed a few weeks not a few months. For it to be delayed until October they must have known for a few months now.

Anywaiz i am a forgiving person so im gonna (lol) wait for an update to the macbook then buy it and then buy leopard in October when it is released, unless Apple has a turn around and ends up releasing it earlier. Who knows.

Much Ado

Apr 13, 2007, 04:45 AM

Apple is now just as bad, delaying there operating system that long.

Difference is, when Apple ships 10.5 it'll actually be ready.

If they were Microsoft they would release it tomorrow and get all of us to do Beta testing.

MA.

stephenli

Apr 13, 2007, 04:52 AM

I'm not planning on using Windoze ever again. Why do the rest of us have to suffer the wait if Boot Camp is not a feature that we may not ever use?

yes. its quite true. I love my G5. Give me Leopard now.

Difference is, when Apple ships 10.5 it'll actually be ready.
If they were Microsoft they would release it tomorrow and get all of us to do Beta testing.
MA.

funny! the beta test is endless until all of us are forced to proceed to the next beta test (XP-->vista).

a456

Apr 13, 2007, 05:02 AM

I sure as hell hope it wasn't delayed because of boot camp. Personally i dont use boot camp and i bet there are others like me. If they delayed it 4 months because of that then i'm losing faith in apple. Delaying there own OS for a program that runs a rivals OS? bleh

I do not personally think it has anything to do with Vista, and if it does - then please stop wasting your time. Apple only needs at this stage to support an upgrade path from XP. But even this could potentially spell trouble- if they try to be too clever (with virtualization etc.) then they will undoubtedly get tangled up in the confused mess of code that is Windows.

I hope that what Apple is doing is producing a rock solid OS that has some great new features that we never knew we needed but now cannot live without, and some great new machines. Failing that I hope this is a trick to lull the competition into a false sense of security and to start the comparisons of Vista's delay with Leopard's before pulling the rabbit out of the hat in June, causing a sharp rise in share price after the inevitable downturn.

BobbyDigital

Apr 13, 2007, 05:30 AM

i really dont buy their excuse about being too busy with the iphone... something probably got messed up... it just seems like a lame excuse.

cammoattard

Apr 13, 2007, 05:33 AM

i really dont buy their excuse about being too busy with the iphone... something probably got messed up... it just seems like a lame excuse.

I had that though to, and i think there is a good chance it could be true, but who knows? I don't think :apple: would ever admit it. Oh well i guess we have to hope that apple releases it earlier than october, but there is nothing else we can really do except encourage apple to finish it and release it completed 100% and encourage them enough for them to complete it earlier.

gui_dos

Apr 13, 2007, 05:34 AM

yes. its quite true. I love my G5. Give me Leopard now.

Give it to me... beautiful liar! [1][4]

[1][4] Today's iTunes Top Songs:
<http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewTop?id=1&popId=1>

Coincidence? :)

Monty Pavement

Apr 13, 2007, 05:41 AM

bertpalmer

Apr 13, 2007, 05:44 AM

Multimedia

Apr 13, 2007, 06:02 AM

Don't forget we have an Apple event this Sunday at NAB - they'll surely make reference to the delay there.

I'm in the camp that I'm quite happy with Tiger, BUT I'm a bit worried about how the Leopard delay will affect the upgrading of products such as Final Cut Studio.

I was presuming that something like Motion 3 would make heavy use of Core Animation - please don't tell me they'll show off a fantastic new After Effects beater on Sunday, then say it needs Leopard to run and will ship in October!!Yes, I'm worried about that as well. Moreover, I think the 8 core MP needs Leopard to properly manage all those cores' behavior with one another. This is part of why I imagined the next FCP 6 and Extreeme would need both the 8 core and Leopard to work properly and fully. Wondering now if they can start selling a FCS 6 that will work with 10.4.9 but reveal a bunch of new features once we get Leopard installed. :confused:

BillyShears

Apr 13, 2007, 06:08 AM

I reached the same conclusion on the rumour as Arn did (on the same day, too!) I posted this when Boot Camp with Vista support was released (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=291689):

DigiTimes October Rumour says it will be an "integrated version" (http://digitimes.com/systems/a20070322PD214.html) of Boot Camp.

Apple's Boot Camp website says Leopard will "include" (http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/) Boot Camp.

DigiTimes could be alluding to the (old, kind of wacky) rumour of an integrated virtualization -- something like VMWare or WINE or Parallels. If so, this release doesn't discredit it entirely.

Also, isn't the version numbering odd? Have they released a non-beta version yet? But they keep moving up the version number -- we've had 1.1 beta and 1.2 beta without having a 1.0 beta. Could be they are going to release 2.0 with Leopard, which would have new features? Wild speculation.

Another thing I thought of: I don't know DigiTimes too well, but it seems absurd that it would take Apple until October to add Vista support to Boot Camp, and that OS X would be delayed because Boot Camp (which could be update fairly easily) did not include support for Vista. Indeed, many people pointed this out when DigiTimes published the rumour, but I don't think they would be that stupid. So Arn's interpretation of "integration" as some Parallels-like solution is probably fairly accurate.

Whether the rumour is accurate is another matter, but today's news lends it some credence.

mavherzog

Apr 13, 2007, 06:23 AM

k2k koos

Apr 13, 2007, 06:23 AM

Blast it Apple, we just keep waiting...and waiting...and waiting for Leopard. First, Macworld. Then, about half a year later, WWDC '07. Now, October. Damn the iPhone, we want our OS. The iPhone has way too many strings attached for it to make them a huge amount of money. Just give us Leopard. Blast it, now that we have to wait until October they had better have the LED screens on the MacBook by then. And maybe faster processors too. I keep waiting for Leopard to buy my MacBook. For now I'm stuck with win-doze xp, so Leopard is essentially my lifesaver.

you should buy now, with a copy of Tiger, as Tiger is more than capable of being a life saver compared to XP you are running now. But if you want to wait for new hardware, okay, but don't let the OS hold you back.

centauratlas

Apr 13, 2007, 06:24 AM

...suggesting that "integrated" Boot Camp might be something closer to Parallels virtualization.

I think that is close, but I would question whether or not the integration refers to more integration of WINE or a something closer to that. I, personally, think that some type of WINE-like integration is a bad idea, but to me that is more integrated than Boot Camp or Parallels.

k2k koos

Apr 13, 2007, 06:31 AM

Apple now also updated it's Leopard Sneakpeek pages , and replaced all references to "spring 2007" with "October 2007"

boubou1961

Apr 13, 2007, 06:45 AM

I am waiting for the next version since january. Powerpoint and the Windows Presentation Framework are closing the gap. They still have a long way to go, but they are getting closer.

As for Bootcamp, my guess is that Apple will keep their word and stay on their Dual Boot approach..... but they will play on words a bit and make it Dual Log. I think we will be able to switch from an OS to the other as we swich dynamically (with cube transition) to another user. No more.

I don't see why they should cut the grass under the feet of the critically acclaimed Parallels. The delay shows engineering resources are too scare to lose brains duplicating things already on the market... and well designed.

xUKHCx

Apr 13, 2007, 07:08 AM

Time to subscribe to digitimes' rss feed (http://www.digitimes.com/rss/daily.xml)

Never really read digitimes before and seems like you have to be a paid subscriber to read lots of articles, bummer.

Cloudsurfer

Apr 13, 2007, 07:10 AM

At least we have a more solid time frame now. It always used to be guessing which part of spring Leopard would arrive, now it's just october.

xUKHCx

Apr 13, 2007, 07:13 AM

At least we have a more solid time frame now. It always used to be guessing which part of spring Leopard would arrive, now it's just october.

So it is narrowed done to 1 in 31 days rather than 1 in 90 days.

xUKHCx

Apr 13, 2007, 07:21 AM

I reached the same conclusion on the rumour as Arn did (on the same day, too!) I posted this when Boot Camp with Vista support was released (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=291689):

Another thing I thought of: I don't know DigiTimes too well, but it seems absurd that it would take Apple until October to add Vista support to Boot Camp, and that OS X would be delayed because Boot Camp (which could be update fairly easily) did not include support for Vista. Indeed, many people pointed this out when DigiTimes published the rumour, but I don't think they would be that stupid. So Arn's interpretation of "integration" as some Parallels-like solution is probably fairly accurate.

Whether the rumour is accurate is another matter, but today's news lends it some credence.

Just thinking here, Vista's SP1 is sheduled to be released around then. Could apple be waiting for a [stable, complete, fast etc.(delete as apprioprate)] version of vista before releasing the ingrated version. Also would the delay , if any, in the release of SP1 delay Leopard further.

MacVault

Apr 13, 2007, 07:23 AM

This Leopard delay SUCKS in every way. So if it ever really does get released IT WITH IT'S TOP SECRET FEATURES BETTER BE F@#%@ING, TOTALLY, 100% MIND-BLOWING AWSOME.

LEOPARD DELAY = :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

MacVault

Apr 13, 2007, 07:25 AM

At least we have a more solid time frame now. It always used to be guessing which part of spring Leopard would arrive, now it's just october.

But after this delay, nothing says that on October 1st Apple won't delay Leopard again. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

BornAgainMac

Apr 13, 2007, 07:27 AM

integrated = wonderful

Integrated graphics. :)

xUKHCx

Apr 13, 2007, 07:31 AM

LEOPARD DELAY = :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

At least you are calming down :) (Would post more smiles to counter the bad but there is a limit of 10 in any one post)

Delay is bad but i feel it means we will get a more rounded OS at the end of it, which i am all for.

BornAgainMac

Apr 13, 2007, 07:39 AM

The REAL reason for the Leopard delay is that Apple is secretly working on the secret features.. The biggest of which will be support for installing OS X on a standard PC as Apple shifts their business from a hardware model to a software model and directly competes with Microsoft...

I agree. They will make up the revenue with the iPhone / Apple TV / iPod / and Software. I originally thought this would happen when the marketshare is over a certain percentage but now is the time with the Vista blunder and the iPhone revenue.

I can still see them selling Mac hardware and open it up to select partners such as HP, Sony, and Dell. Then gradually open it up to anyone. I really don't know how Microsoft will survive at that point. Perhaps it will be a 50 / 50 market with both co-existing.

MacVault

Apr 13, 2007, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Xapplimatic
The REAL reason for the Leopard delay is that Apple is secretly working on the secret features.. The biggest of which will be support for installing OS X on a standard PC as Apple shifts their business from a hardware model to a software model and directly competes with Microsoft...

As much as I'm pissed about the delay, Apple could redeem themselves in my view by doing just that - open OS X to standard PC hardware! That would be awsome SINCE APPLE STILL REFUSES TO MAKE A SUB-$1000 MINITOWER.

xUKHCx

Apr 13, 2007, 07:51 AM

As much as I'm pissed about the delay, Apple could redeem themselves in my view by doing just that - open OS X to standard PC hardware! That would be awsome SINCE APPLE STILL REFUSES TO MAKE A SUB-$1000 MINITOWER.

For that to happen i think there would be an even longer delay (read 1-2 years)

What if apple released a sub $1000 minitower? Would you still want generic OS X?

dAlen

Apr 13, 2007, 07:52 AM

Well Apple, was about to buy a computer...now i will just wait.
No way Im buying a computer that doesnt have Leopard preinstalled on it...
So you'll have to wait close to half a year (if its in of oct. vs the june 15th shipd date) to get my money. :)

As for Windows, if that is a real reason, I can say...Apple, Im buying OSX - not window, or perhaps you didnt notice. If I want windows - that desperately - I will buy it for a PC. But to stop a release based on not supporting an outside O.S. - what a laugh. just integrate it later. (But maybe they feel its best for the marketing ploy to the majority of customers...run everything at once on your new mac...whatever.)

Boo...apple. Just saying you are on track, what a bold face lie. I realize you have a time so that you dont mess up your stocks before they are supposed to mess up...but again, boo.

And yes, ipod is their bread and butter, and now this phone.
No, Im not getting one...and no, the price is not justified, except to those who want to justify it.

Everything adds up nicely and points to this...it was great signs for selling short. :)

Peace

headfuzz

Apr 13, 2007, 07:57 AM

I can still see them selling Mac hardware and open it up to select partners such as HP, Sony, and Dell. Then gradually open it up to anyone. I really don't know how Microsoft will survive at that point. Perhaps it will be a 50 / 50 market with both co-existing.

Interesting, if wild, speculation. Certainly the majority of the donkey work has been done for them by the OSx86 community, and with elite hackers from that community like maxxuss vanishing off the face of the planet, it could be that Apple has hired them and had them beavering away in the lab for the past year working toward certified compatibility with other vendors' hardware...

The problem that exists though is that Apple would need to be very select about the vendors it partners with. Give up the hardware model too much and they'd end up in the same boat as Microsoft, where people berate them a lot of the time because their cheap USB ADSL modem's / dodgy mobo chipset drivers are really badly coded and keep causing crashes.

Not the OS vendor's fault, but that's the way a lot of end users see it. Keeping the hardware locked to partnered vendors would be a decent compromise - although Dell and HP's case design teams should take a leaf or three out of Apple's book ;)

Hello btw - this is my first post (though I've been a murky lurker for a while!) :)

dAlen

Apr 13, 2007, 07:57 AM

It is a pain to wait, but it gives me more time to save for a MBP and I know that they will have spent time on developing a rock solid product and not shipping something sub-standard.

I don't believe the iPhone or Dual Boot reason, I'd prefer to hear that they are working on new useful features that will make it worth getting Leopard over Vista.

sorry, apples site says iphone was priority...that is what caused delays across the board. let us repeat like a mantra...iphone.

regardless of the fact that most of us hate it - not the iphone - but that the iphone is now in place of the computer part of apple...its what is going to get them more $$$ faster and more market share, in the phone area at least, quicker. OSX? What is that? :)

Leopard is the OSX I have been waiting for since OSX was released. :)

Peace

vitruvius

Apr 13, 2007, 08:02 AM

Instead of getting sad about the delay, ive decide to have some Photoshop fun :D

cheers,

Carlos

MacVault

Apr 13, 2007, 08:05 AM

For that to happen i think there would be an even longer delay (read 1-2 years)

Why? Hackers already have it running on Dell hardware, etc. Yes, Apple would have to get drivers together, test many different hardware configurations, etc... but they could save time by opening it to Dell first, then HP after a while, etc. And what's to say Apple hasn't been working on this for the past 5 years - as they had been doing with their switch to Intel???

What if apple released a sub $1000 minitower? Would you still want generic OS X?

I would probably buy the Apple minitower even if there was OS X for generic PC. But Yes, as a network administrator in the PC world I would still want generic OS X... because using OS X in business would only be advisable if OS X was opened up to generic PC hardware --- I could not tollerate Apple dictating to me a very limited selection of hardware.

4nNtt

Apr 13, 2007, 08:15 AM

This specificity was noted by Arn (http://normalkid.com/2007/03/29/digitimes-could-still-be-right/) in a blog posting on the matter, suggesting that "integrated" Boot Camp might be something closer to Parallels virtualization.

I think it is more likely bootcamp will get a suspend to disk feature then virtualization. Just click a button and switch back and forth with no reboot. Most people don't care to run osx and vista simultaneously with virtualization anyway.

macpeter

Apr 13, 2007, 08:24 AM

I learned that some people whine a lot. I also learned that Tiger is a great OS that is still ahead of Vista.

How true! Tiger is a fabulous operating system and in a way I am quite relieved I will be continuing to live with it through the next round of
computer purchases:)

Max Payne

Apr 13, 2007, 08:26 AM

As long as they take more time to develop the "secret" features and improve the security.

appleizcool

Apr 13, 2007, 08:28 AM

enough is enough. the delay is too long! cut the nonsense and give us leopard! if apple comes up with something worth adding or taking away (like windows virtualization capability) then put it in an update!

Chris Bangle

Apr 13, 2007, 08:29 AM

so no m:( ultitouch imacs till october.

MacVault

Apr 13, 2007, 08:34 AM

Check out this screenshot of http://www.cnn.com/TECH/

herodian

Apr 13, 2007, 08:50 AM

why are people getting so angry at Apple? All of those that are saying 'im not buying until Leopard is installed' are fools. Tiger is an awesome OS. If you need new Hardware, wait for the hardware to be ready, not the OS. YOu can always upgrade the OS later.. we all know how 'difficult' it is to upgrade hardware.

Yes, i'm as miffed as the next Man at the delay, but so what? I still have my Mac(s) :)

and another thing... i truely believe that iPhone is Apple's main priority right now. Who wouldn't want a repeat success of the iPod? and the reason it worked.... preparation. the media attention over this device has been many times what we were expecting (IMO), and SJ canny afford to balls it up.

I like the idea of being able to take a portable version of my mac with me on my iPhone... settings, pref's etc... who's to say this hasn;t been the delay? finding a way to run a more complex (sic) os on a simpler one?

speculation is not my middle name :cool:

FriarTuck

Apr 13, 2007, 08:50 AM

Other than Time Machine, the features of 10.5 announced so far are a giant "meh" for me, so... I hope they take all the time they need to put some more exciting stuff in the mix before they bake this cake.

failsafe1

Apr 13, 2007, 08:58 AM

I can wait cause I have to. But I can wait with ease if we get integrated bootcamp that works better than Parallels. It would be nice to get a all in one bundle that does not need any extra software loading or configuring to run windows programs. Dare I even dream not needing Windows at all?

peharri

Apr 13, 2007, 09:08 AM

If it's a system to install Windows and provide a switch on boot-up, then it's hard to see how it can be more "integrated" than it is today. The temptation is to see it as a generic way to describe all solutions for running Windows on a Mac, but the name implies something more specific, the word "boot" implies it's about how the Mac starts up.

So the "Leopard's going to have virtualization support!" or "It's going to have Wine-like integration!" strikes me as, well, it's possible Leopard will have that, but I don't see why they'd associate that with the functionality of Bootcamp. It's Mac enthusiasts, who see Bootcamp = Windows, who are reading that into the functionality, and it doesn't make much sense.

I'm not discounting the idea that Leopard will have more integrated solutions for running Windows applications. Apple can get that by providing a method of installing "real" Windows and then using a wine-based back-end to host the operating system. (This leaves you with close to perfect emulation, the only serious problem people who do this already under GNU/Linux have is with copy-prevention schemes, and Apple certainly has the resources to fix that.)

But that's not what would be in an "integrated" version of Bootcamp. So it'd be interesting to speculate what, exactly, would be.

Here's one. Suppose you did build virtualization into Bootcamp, rather than Leopard. When your Mac boots, it loads Bootcamp rather than Mac OS X. At that point, your first Bootcamp "session" automatically starts, which is an instance of Mac OS X. At any time, you can flit back to Bootcamp and start new sessions, running multiple versions of Windows, Mac OS X, GNU/Linux, or whatever else you want.

This is different from the "Parallels" scenario most people are describing, where the virtualization is in the operating system. In this situation, the virtualization is hosted outside of the operating system (and could be described as a thin operating system itself.)

How would it differ from the existing Bootcamp? It'd be the difference between "Mac OS 6" and "Mac OS 6+Multifinder."

Just in case it isn't clear from the above, I'm just pointing out that you need to be Bootcamp, that is, boot manager, centric when speculating what an "integrated" Bootcamp that somehow is so advanced it delays an OS goes. As it happens, I think virtualization is unlikely, because Apple keeps dropping hints saying it's unlikely. But this is the kind of thing we should be thinking about.

bighairydoofus

Apr 13, 2007, 09:08 AM

What a load of B.S.

Apple's been having problems with this new OS for a long time. It's NOT because of this stupid phone, okay? What I find funny is after all the bravado about starting photocopiers and ripping on Micro$oft is that we're looking at almost a year from product announcement to product shipping. That's ridiculous.

This really sucks for me because my 3G ipod just croaked and I'm using an antiquated (in computer terms) iMac with an older OS not supported by the shiny new ones. But you know what? That's what eBay is for. I'll look at it as upgrading from a 30gig to a 40! I will NOT buy a new OS just to get a shiny new toy!

I have money in the bank waiting for a new computer and iPod. Heck, I'd consider getting a shiny new Mac Pro if Apple'd just offer a decent graphics card with it. You know what? When I spend that much money, I just might like to play a game once in a while, you know?

And NO, I will not be buying the iPhone.

Apple, me and my bank account will see you in October.

:cool:

eenu

Apr 13, 2007, 09:12 AM

Does seem very stupid to concentrate on a phone that will not sell as much as a new OS.......oh well....

nickane

Apr 13, 2007, 09:17 AM

I think that the best thing we can take from all this is that there will surely be new hardware soon. These last few months I've had this sketch in my mind of Jobsy sitting in a confession booth ashamedly admitting that "its been six months since my last computer release", and, excepting the 8-core BTO option on the mac pro, that date is only 3 weeks away now. There seemed to be a lot of ppl denying that the iphone was using up apple's resources, holding up these updates, ppl who were confident that all macs would have been updated by wwdc, many with new form factors, all shipping with leopard. Now that their blind optimism has been proven misplaced, we can surely expect some new computers because otherwise Apple Inc. will really be in the $h!t, iphone or not.

I'd expect mbp's at NAB or at their own event before wwdc (depending on santa rosa's timeframe)
imacs, macbooks & kentsfield-across-the-board mac pros at wwdc
or macbooks and macmini's at their own event soon after wwdc

Here's to hoping.

chiphead

Apr 13, 2007, 09:26 AM

I have languished over the release of Leopard. However, this delay makes sense so that Apple can "stick it to the man", Microsoft, and make sure their release is far ahead of Vista. I would also bet that the interface changes and skin on Leopard were too close to vista. Where apple was going with see through effects and core animation, Vista rips off, it would look bad to drop a new OS that visually looks anything like Vista, using black see through effects like we see in iPhoto full screen controls, or glass imaging like coverflow.

I'm sure there was a lot of re-thinking to do once Vista was released.

Also, they are far enough ahead of competition in OS tech, they can afford to use resources on iPhone. I am pumped for iPhone, look at what iPod did to improve our lives - anyone want to go back and carry around CD's and a CD Walkman in a backpack?

Go Apple!

uhzoomzip

Apr 13, 2007, 09:32 AM

I suspect the timing of both the denial of the delay and then the confirmation had something to do with the fiscal quarter ending in March and the new one beginning in April.

Which means either Apple PR was lying or the OS X team was keeping their progress - or lack thereof - a secret. I suspect the latter, since Apple doesn't exactly send out memos on roadmaps, schedules and "unreleased products".

Developers have been raising flags about bug fixes for a while. Obviously, Apple management has known for a while that they would be killing the OS X team to finish before WWDC. Hopefully, this will be an incentive to announce the "secret" stuff at WWDC so they can save face and developers can actually test against these unannounced "features".

Key sentence in the press release:

"While Leopard's features will be complete by then, we cannot deliver the quality release that we and our customers expect from us."

eenu

Apr 13, 2007, 09:39 AM

Apple management has known for a while that they would be killing the OS X team to finish before WWDC. ...........

Key sentence in the press release:

"While Leopard's features will be complete by then, we cannot deliver the quality release that we and our customers expect from us."

My concern is that there is 4-5 months before they release it after its supposed feature completion for WWDC. For such a feature complete piece of software thats a long time for bugs.....

lukeisme09

Apr 13, 2007, 09:41 AM

hey it isnt so bad at least we can be sure that :apple: has a perfected product. Also it will give me time to save $$$$$$ for a new mac :D

patseguin

Apr 13, 2007, 09:41 AM

I think it is more likely bootcamp will get a suspend to disk feature then virtualization. Just click a button and switch back and forth with no reboot. Most people don't care to run osx and vista simultaneously with virtualization anyway.

I can think this statement makes more sense than anything I've heard yet speculating about Bootcamp.

syklee26

Apr 13, 2007, 09:46 AM

so exactly what da heck is going to be at WWDC?

karlfranz

Apr 13, 2007, 09:55 AM

Sorry if some of this has been posted already, but I can't bring myself to read the hundreds of messages that have already been posted on the subject:

1 - It seems to be a lot of people have failed to notice a nugget of information found in the first sentence of Apple's statement "iPhone has already passed several of its required certification tests and is on schedule to ship in late June as planned." All those people who were predicting that the iPhone would be released early, or at least early in June, will have to wait. It clearly says "Late" June which Apple had never specified before. Methinks that Apple is running late with the iPhone as well and gave the ambiguous "June" window to give themselves some leeway. Now are having to push it all the way to the end of the month.

2 - To all those people complaining about Leopard being late and saying that now Apple is as bad as Microsoft: Please remember that Apple had claimed a release of "Spring 2007" for Leopard. In other words, Leopard is not even late yet and it won't be officially "late" until the end of June. If Apple manages to deliver by October, that will be only 3-4 months late. How can any of you possibly compare that to Vista which was over 5 YEARS late and had to be written at least twice? There is simply no comparison. When Apple is 3 years or more late delivering Leopard, then feel free to tease and make fun all you like. Until then, please keep your whining down to a minimum. Tiger has been out for a long time and it's still light-years ahead of Vista. When you see the new "special" improvements introduced with Leopard you will realize that it was worth the wait.

sishaw

Apr 13, 2007, 09:55 AM

Take over the world. When bootcamp can boot with total ease, then more and more people will continue to switch. I think this is brilliant, and Microsoft's downfall, with the combination of all of this, and Google's web-based... everything, Apple may emerge as the victorious (in terms of sales and usership) out of all. Glory.

MK

Umm...how exactly is even more computers running Windows "Microsoft's downfall"?

Dual booting seems like a win-win situation to me: those who would own a Mac but for one or two programs that require Windows now can; and Windows can run on 99.99% of the world's computers (there's still a couple of Sun workstations out there, right?), instead of only 95%.

segfaultdotorg

Apr 13, 2007, 10:02 AM

Integrated, eh? So, are they going to allow OS X to write to an NTFS partition, or are they going to make Vista install on a FAT32 partition--either of which would allow full access to the Windows partition from OS X? Those are the reasons I argue that Vista is not compatible with even the current Boot Camp beta, and why I am still running XP.

Diatribe

Apr 13, 2007, 10:05 AM

If it is gonna be feature complete in June, what the hell do they need the other 4 months for? :confused:

Vidd

Apr 13, 2007, 10:06 AM

The October prediction seems accurate now but I have a hard time believing that this is all over better Windows integration.
Why would they delay their OS to accomodate another?

BigPrince

Apr 13, 2007, 10:11 AM

I want October in writing.

johnee

Apr 13, 2007, 10:14 AM

If the main goal of leopard is to integrate boot camp or parallels or any other attempt to allow me to run windows, then i don't want leopard.

belovedmonster

Apr 13, 2007, 10:15 AM

What I find funny is after all the bravado about starting photocopiers and ripping on Micro$oft is that we're looking at almost a year from product announcement to product shipping. That's ridiculous.

A few people have said this now and frankly I dont understand why. How is being 4 months late with a bunch of (what we presume will be) great new features in any way comparable to Vista which was years late and didnt add anything new into the mix at all, just features every other OS already had and a bunch that were already available for XP anyways.

reflex

Apr 13, 2007, 10:15 AM

At least it's not over 2 years with half the functionality jettisoned, like Vista.

I personally don't care either way for Vista or Leopard, but Vista didn't start by being delayed for 2 years either. Just a few months at a time.

xUKHCx

Apr 13, 2007, 10:18 AM

I want October in writing.

It is numerous places over at apple.com, one example (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) is given below. Or do you want a signed letter from Steve Jobs.

Get ready, get set, get Leopard
All these features and more are delivered to you in one universal, fully accessible, 64-bit operating system. Coming October 2007.

herodian

Apr 13, 2007, 10:19 AM

Does seem very stupid to concentrate on a phone that will not sell as much as a new OS.......oh well....

i bet the same was said about the iPod.

CoreWeb

Apr 13, 2007, 10:19 AM

If it is gonna be feature complete in June, what the hell do they need the other 4 months for? :confused:

Feature complete, meaning they've put in all the features. There may still be many bugs.

They appear to be changing a TON of the innards of the OS. So there could be many bugs. Maybe this means that Leopard will be EXTREMELY stable.

johnee

Apr 13, 2007, 10:20 AM

actually, I think i'll focus on speculation of hardware updates.

I'll automatically assume they will definitely come out at WWDC (i think apple said spring 2007 for hardware updates, didn't they?)

Then, I'll wait for the crushing PR statement saying the crappyapplephone has pushed out the release of new systems.

:D :D :D

johnee

Apr 13, 2007, 10:22 AM

It is numerous places over at apple.com, one example (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) is given below. Or do you want a signed letter from Steve Jobs.

Originally Posted by Apple.com
Get ready, get set, get Leopard
All these features and more are delivered to you in one universal, fully accessible, 64-bit operating system. Coming October 2007.

Yeah, after that PR announcement, they changed the word "Spring" to "October". Obviously getting it in writing doesn't support their claims any more than spit in a handshake.

psycoswimmer

Apr 13, 2007, 10:37 AM

With the new feature "Spaces" in Leopard, could Windows be run in a different desktop, or space? This seems like a good feature...

And about the delay... If anything it makes me happy that I didn't wait until Leopard to buy my iMac.

Lgreer

Apr 13, 2007, 10:43 AM

I am the Sales Communications Coordinator for a company called Natural Products, Inc. (http://www.npisoy.com). We are contemplating migration to the Mac platform and recently bought a couple copies of Parallels for our employees with Macs to try out (I am one of them).

An Apple rep (at least he said he was an Apple rep) contacted the Director of Sales and Marketing at our company and asked him a series of questions concerning Parallels. When asked why he was asking the questions, the Apple rep expressed their interest in Parallels and said that they were working closely with it.

Whether or not this is evidence of an "integrated" parallels-like Bootcamp, I don't know. Just thought I would let you guys know.

headfuzz

Apr 13, 2007, 10:54 AM

so exactly what da heck is going to be at WWDC?

Developers. :D

Rocketman

Apr 13, 2007, 11:02 AM

I do believe this is the first "official" delay in a Mac OS release in 4 years? The delay is 4 months. A bit different from either Longhorn or Vista.

The excuse is a pretty good one too. About to release a "truly revolutionary and magical" device expected to sell a million units a month at a very high profit margin.

Oh . . . and just released a FREE update to OS 10.4 (10.4.9) for all users to enjoy.

Oh . . . and now MOVIES on iTunes and DRM free music too. Be very careful what you wish for. Steve wants you to have it as soon as "practical".

Rocketman

headfuzz

Apr 13, 2007, 11:03 AM

With the new feature "Spaces" in Leopard, could Windows be run in a different desktop, or space? This seems like a good feature...

Now that actually sounds like a sensible idea, for those that need Windows but don't want their virtual Win box in an annoying nested window... :)

Perhaps the finer points would be seamless interaction between the Windows Space functionality and the other Spaces... *shrug*

chubad

Apr 13, 2007, 11:04 AM

Yes, I'm worried about that as well. Moreover, I think the 8 core MP needs Leopard to properly manage all those cores' behavior with one another. This is part of why I imagined the next FCP 6 and Extreeme would need both the 8 core and Leopard to work properly and fully. Wondering now if they can start selling a FCS 6 that will work with 10.4.9 but reveal a bunch of new features once we get Leopard installed. :confused:

I am in the same boat. Apple has basically committed to announcing FCS 6 and it seems only logical that it will heavily utilize the new features in Leopard. I think that sadly we are going to see a blow away demo, and then they will drop the funk bomb on us that it won't ship until after Leopard.:(
The 8 core Mac is almost a joke in the pathetic speed increase for the $$. It needs much more memory bandwidth, and has a large memory bus bottleneck. That combined with the half way support for multi cores on Tiger means it will be a long time before my G-5 Quad gets replaced. This summer I will install 4 internal 500 gig drives and stripe them. I will see if that gives it a kick in the pants. I suspect it will. I have a Raptor 10k as a boot drive now but it is too small even to fit all of my applications on.
Apple need to stop mucking around with expensive trinkets and pump out some decent stuff for people who actually do heavy video and graphics work.

killmoms

Apr 13, 2007, 11:05 AM

All this boycott the iPhone nonsense is really tiresome. Honestly, grow up people. Posting on an Internet forum is not going to change anything. :rolleyes:

hazmat

Apr 13, 2007, 11:06 AM

chubad

Apr 13, 2007, 11:07 AM

Developers. :D

Phil Shiller doing the Ballmer Sweaty Monkey Dance screaming DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS.........:D

chubad

Apr 13, 2007, 11:09 AM

All this boycott the iPhone nonsense is really tiresome. Honestly, grow up people. Posting on an Internet forum is not going to change anything. :rolleyes:

Then why did you post this? it's not going to do anything.;)

Vidd

Apr 13, 2007, 11:11 AM

Personally I don't care that much about a delay in 10.5, but what I want to know is how this affects the new supposedly redesigned iMac. I was waiting for announcements of this new one before I got one, since I'm ready, though my PB G4 1.33 is still working fine.

So doesn't anyone think that the new iMac could still come out sooner than Oct., or is there a reason that it has to come out along with 10.5?

Thanks.

I don't see why they would delay a hardware update just so it comes with the new OS. It would make more sense to release it now to compensate for the delay.
IF the redesigned iMac even exists, that is.

Bakey

Apr 13, 2007, 11:13 AM

2 - To all those people complaining about Leopard being late and saying that now Apple is as bad as Microsoft: Please remember that Apple had claimed a release of "Spring 2007" for Leopard. In other words, Leopard is not even late yet and it won't be officially "late" until the end of June. If Apple manages to deliver by October, that will be only 3-4 months late. How can any of you possibly compare that to Vista which was over 5 YEARS late and had to be written at least twice? There is simply no comparison. When Apple is 3 years or more late delivering Leopard, then feel free to tease and make fun all you like. Until then, please keep your whining down to a minimum. Tiger has been out for a long time and it's still light-years ahead of Vista. When you see the new "special" improvements introduced with Leopard you will realize that it was worth the wait.

Ditto!! At last a post with some guts -- I can't believe the amount of whinging that has occured as a result of the delay!

I appreciate as Apple users we carry a considerable amount of passion for the Mac platform and its associated OS... But c'mon, people - this little puppy is going to be four months behind the targetted time-frame at the most!!

Yes - Apple could indeed delay once again; should that happen then I feel we can justifiably start slinging the mud!

Vista was years behind schedule, and to add insult to injury not complete from where MS anticipated the feature set to fall. And now with their 'tricks' of Vista OEM only builds come January they [MS] have certainly begun to feel the heat with the b*lls-up that they so poorly set and played out!!

The above simply can't be said of Apple - personally I'd rather wait and feel somewhat more assured that 10.5.0 is a 'solid' release, whereas the same couldn't be said of Tiger in its 10.4.0 guise! Never suffered the problems myself, but looking around the various Mac sites it was clear issues were indeed aplenty!

My only real concerns are the imminent release of FCS6 and its apparent requirement of Leopard for the Core duties... That side will be interesting with respect of how it's handled!!

So c'mon people - deep breaths, calm down and relax... ;-)

hazmat

Apr 13, 2007, 11:14 AM

I don't see why they would delay a hardware update just so it comes with the new OS. It would make more sense to release it now to compensate for the delay.
IF the redesigned iMac even exists, that is.

True I guess, but I got the feeling from rumors that new features in the new iMac might take advantage of new features in 10.5. Of course rumors are rumors. I'm just hesitant to get one now since I could totally see a new one being released right after.

Vidd

Apr 13, 2007, 11:19 AM

True I guess, but I got the feeling from rumors that new features in the new iMac might take advantage of new features in 10.5. Of course rumors are rumors. I'm just hesitant to get one now since I could totally see a new one being released right after.

What piece of hardware would require the new OS?
Spaces, time machine and Core Animation (for example) do not require specific hardware.
Unless you mean the touch-screen feature which I do not expect. :/

hazmat

Apr 13, 2007, 11:22 AM

What piece of hardware would require the new OS?
Spaces, time machine and Core Animation (for example) do not require specific hardware.
Unless you mean the touch-screen feature which I do not expect. :/

That's one of them, yeah. :) Personally I could care less about touch screen, but still, new stuff is new stuff....

Diatribe

Apr 13, 2007, 11:22 AM

The only things we learn from this delay is that they don't seem to have enough developers and that OS X is not the priority anymore.

suneohair

Apr 13, 2007, 11:23 AM

I choose to spend my money wisely. I have paid thousands of dollars over the years to enjoy Apple products, most of which have failed for reasons unknown to me. Only a couple of which were through my own clumsiness.

That doesn't mean that I can't ask an honest question about my next Apple purchase.

If that was the case you would not be here on Macrumors. You choose to spend your money based on pure speculation. What about all the people out there buying computers oblivous to NAB, WWDC, etc?

You honest question about your next Apple purchase cannot be answered. Do you know the next iMac won't be out until October... no. Do I know... no. Does anyone on the internet know who is allowed to tell you... no.

Are todays iMacs amazing machines? yes. Will they last for years? yes. Should you buy today? yes.

But of course for you, that is a no because you would rather sit on your money that you spend ever so carefully and wait for the update that may never come. Which makes it clear you don't need a computer, you simply want the next best thing and thus not spending your money wisely.

Get over yourselves. Apple doesn't owe you anything. If sites like this didn't exist you would be out buying the computers when you need them. Get a life. I love Apple as much as anyone else and I love my Mac, but I am not about to let something like this piss me off as much as some of you are expressing.

And Vista was delayed for YEARS!!! Can you read that? YEARRRRSSS. Apple tacked on 4 months which will ultimately give us a better product.

And Multimedia, I doubt this delay has any affect on the Master Collection. Adobe never said it was leopard dependant.

gwangung

Apr 13, 2007, 11:25 AM

The only things we learn from this delay is that they don't seem to have enough developers and that OS X is not the priority anymore.

A) NOBODY has enough developers.

B) Their priority is HARDWARE. That's where they get the bulk of their revenue (and that's ALWAYS been that way).

C) Most Mac users don't seem to learn a damn things about business and how it operates in the real world.

Vidd

Apr 13, 2007, 11:25 AM

That's one of them, yeah. :) Personally I could care less about touch screen, but still, new stuff is new stuff....
But then what else do you mean?
Hardware video encoding?
You'd be more likely to see them release the fabled 10.4.10 to accomodate that in the next six months rather than wait just to tie it in the the OS.

Elgato just released a $100 USB dongle that can do all that on current Tiger systems!

If not, what do you mean? This could be a worry for myself as well but there's nothing solid yet.

suneohair

Apr 13, 2007, 11:26 AM

The only things we learn from this delay is that they don't seem to have enough developers and that OS X is not the priority anymore.

Sensational much? Give me a break. All it means is that to hit their iPhone date which has more hype around it than Leopard they need to shift resources to the iPhone from Leopard.

And who is to say that now they are not working on it full fledged now? (Leopard that is.) Maybe the resource shift happened already but to their dismay there was no way Leopard could be finished. That would explain the length of time between the developer builds. And now that we have one it could mean they are back to business as usual.

I don't know what is really happening of course. I am not about to sensationalize the topic, it is what it is. And it makes sense.

digiguy23

Apr 13, 2007, 11:30 AM

Why are most people being a cheeleader for Apple. The iPhone is cool and i'll probably get one, but unless you belong to At&t and want to get the contract, pay the big bucks, I feel Apple is making a big mistake on this one. This is not a product that any one can just go into a store and pick one up. "YOU NEED CELLULAR SERVICE". And believe me, companies that has hundreds of Blackberrys are not going to dump them in June. Nice going Steve.

hazmat

Apr 13, 2007, 11:31 AM

But then what else do you mean?
Hardware video encoding?
You'd be more likely to see them release the fabled 10.4.10 to accomodate that in the next six months rather than wait just to tie it in the the OS.

Elgato just released a $100 USB dongle that can do all that on current Tiger systems!

If not, what do you mean? This could be a worry for myself as well but there's nothing solid yet.

I don't actually know what I mean. It's the stuff I don't know about that worries me. The stuff I imagine seeing when it's released and thinking, "Damn, I wish I had waited for that."

BillyShears

Apr 13, 2007, 11:32 AM

This topic is about the delay's effect on DigiTimes's credibility, especially their claim of an "integrated" Boot Camp in Leopard.

There is another topic (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=296020) to complain about the Leopard delay.

I know I'm not a moderator, but it is frustrating to read this topic when over half the posts are complaints about the iPhone or Leopard's delay.

maxvamp

Apr 13, 2007, 11:32 AM

Makes the 8 core a publicly available developer's platform. Load the beta after WWDC and get busy. :rolleyes: :eek:

I do not understand your comment... Several parallel QT / FCP renders, Cinema4D, Maya, et. could use these procs.

Furthermore, If someone wanted to develop for Leopard, they could do it now. I am sure bigger projects have already started....

Max.

alansky

Apr 13, 2007, 11:32 AM

I have no need to run Windows on my Mac, but I have installed Windows XP on a friend's Mac with the help of Parallels Desktop and, I must say, this is the way to go. If I did need Windows, the ability to switch back and forth between XP and OS X with a click of the mouse sure beats restarting the computer.

deputy_doofy

Apr 13, 2007, 11:32 AM

integrated = wonderful

Except for graphics cards. :p

maxvamp

Apr 13, 2007, 11:33 AM

peharri

Apr 13, 2007, 11:38 AM

The Bootcamp theory is interesting but for reasons I mentioned earlier, there's no actual explanation that works yet that involves Bootcamp.

Here's an interesting alternative take (http://blogs.marketwatch.com/greenberg/2007/04/translating_the.html). It's a little anti-Apple so drink some Chamomile Tea before reading but essentially:

It takes Apple's statement, that this is iPhone related, at face value
It points out that Apple's statement is more carefully worded than it might appear on the surface.

Specifically, the Apple statement says the iPhone has passed "several" tests, which implies it either isn't ready to pass, or has actively failed, other tests.

This might imply there are very real problems with the iPhone, and Apple has suddenly had to pull out all the stops to get it approved.

The fact the phone apparently runs OS X at a low level might, to me, be a problem and be why Apple is suddenly having to throw Leopard engineers at the issue. When I first got a smartphone, a Nokia 9000, Nokia had interfaced the Windows-like GEOS operating system with GSM by, effectively, bolting on an entire Nokia 21x0 phone onto the system, and allowing the GEOS side to communicate with the 21x0 side at a high level so GEOS could manage the phone book and pull out meta information. It was effectively a phone and a separate handheld-PC in a single box. In other words, they were already using a lightweight system for the smartphone part of the system, and they still chose to prevent it from doing the real work on the phone side. Why? To make the difficult bit, the bit that requires regulatory oversight, as simple as possible. It was an existing, known, design.

Later Nokia 9xxx series phones used Symbian, but in a similar relationship. As Symbian has matured, I believe it is both the high and low level OS on newer Nokia phones, but again it's a very small, mature, easily tested OS.

By comparison, OS X has been created by removing significant chunks of Mac OS X (apparently) and replacing others. It's a much larger system than anything I've seen hitting the radio hardware directly on a phone.

(Now, maybe it isn't, perhaps there's an in-between device, as with the Nokia 9000s, but that's not what Jobs himself has implied. He's indicated that the entire thing is too low level to allow independent third party application development, citing the possibility of bugs bringing down the network if that happened. He could have just been trying to justify the usual Apple controls, or he could have had a point.)

It strikes me as entirely likely that Apple's statement should be taken at face value. Right now, particularly in the testing and bug-fixing departments, the iPhone is in dire need of help if they're going to release on time, and - guess what - those are also exactly what Leopard needs right now too.

Diatribe

Apr 13, 2007, 11:39 AM

A) NOBODY has enough developers.

B) Their priority is HARDWARE. That's where they get the bulk of their revenue (and that's ALWAYS been that way).

C) Most Mac users don't seem to learn a damn things about business and how it operates in the real world.

OS X is the only reason why people even buy Macs, so saying that
Apple is a hardware company and an OS delay doesn't matter is a nonsense argument. And you can keep your personal insults to yourself. It's common courtesy ;)

Sensational much? Give me a break. All it means is that to hit their iPhone date which has more hype around it than Leopard they need to shift resources to the iPhone from Leopard.

And who is to say that now they are not working on it full fledged now? (Leopard that is.) Maybe the resource shift happened already but to their dismay there was no way Leopard could be finished. That would explain the length of time between the developer builds. And now that we have one it could mean they are back to business as usual.

I don't know what is really happening of course. I am not about to sensationalize the topic, it is what it is. And it makes sense.

That was a simple statement, where you see me sensationalizing it is beyond me.

suneohair

Apr 13, 2007, 11:42 AM

The only things we learn from this delay is that they don't seem to have enough developers and that OS X is not the priority anymore.

That is a sensational statement. If you would have said, OS X is not a priority RIGHT NOW that would have been different. But to say ANYMORE, well it isn't true. If that was true then we would never be getting Leopard.

iTron5

Apr 13, 2007, 11:44 AM

Sensational much? Give me a break. All it means is that to hit their iPhone date which has more hype around it than Leopard they need to shift resources to the iPhone from Leopard.

Originally Posted by Diatribe
The only things we learn from this delay is that they don't seem to have enough developers and that OS X is not the priority anymore.

You harass Diatribe about sensationalizing but, I fail to see how your statement differs from Diabtribes at all. You say iPhone had more hype and needed to hit their release date, to do so it required moving resources to the iPhone to accomplish that. Which says that they didn't have enough developers to meet the timelines for both and had to shift resources to iPhone which indicates it had priority, so where is the difference?

suneohair

Apr 13, 2007, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Diatribe
The only things we learn from this delay is that they don't seem to have enough developers and that OS X is not the priority anymore.

You harass Diatribe about sensationalizing but, I fail to see how your statement differs from Diabtribes at all. You say iPhone had more hype and needed to hit their release date, to do so it required moving resources to the iPhone to accomplish that. Which says that they didn't have enough developers to meet the timelines for both and had to shift resources to iPhone which indicates it had priority, so where is the difference?

Well, lets see here. Everything you said I said, is fact, or at least what Apple is telling us. So considering I am simply taking the facts, I don't really see how my statement could be the same.

My issue is with the word anymore, it is rather sensational to say "it isn't the priority anymore," it just isn't right now. Saying anymore implies it will never be again, because of iPod, iPhone, whatever. There is no evidence of that.

anymore: to any further extent; any longer

headfuzz

Apr 13, 2007, 11:49 AM

I heard that one of the secret features of Leopard is World Peace, that's why I'm disappointed it's late. :p

iTron5

Apr 13, 2007, 11:53 AM

Well, lets see here. Everything you said I said, is fact, or at least what Apple is telling us. So considering I am simply taking the facts, I don't really see how my statement could be the same.

My issue is with the word anymore, it is rather sensational to say "it isn't the priority anymore," it just isn't right now. Saying anymore implies it will never be again, because of iPod, iPhone, whatever. There is no evidence of that.

I would say there is no evidence to the contrary either, so you can't be sure either way. And Just because it's not a priority doesn't mean it will never be seen. I'm not saying i agree it's not a priority, it just seemed to me your original statement basically said the same thing, i will give you that saying anymore does have a connotation that it will never be again, although i'm not so sure that was the intent of the statement.

Diatribe

Apr 13, 2007, 11:59 AM

Well, lets see here. Everything you said I said, is fact, or at least what Apple is telling us. So considering I am simply taking the facts, I don't really see how my statement could be the same.

My issue is with the word anymore, it is rather sensational to say "it isn't the priority anymore," it just isn't right now. Saying anymore implies it will never be again, because of iPod, iPhone, whatever. There is no evidence of that.

anymore: to any further extent; any longer

English is your native language, correct? Good, now that we have cleared that up, go ahead and tell me since when "anymore" is of infinite validity.
Anymore simply means it was before and now isn't. That doesn't mean it won't be again in the future.

localoid

Apr 13, 2007, 12:02 PM

The Bootcamp theory is interesting but for reasons I mentioned earlier, there's no actual explanation that works yet that involves Bootcamp.

Bootcamp = boot manager.
Parallels Desktop for Mac = virtualization software.
Coherence = feature of Parallels Desktop for Mac's virtualization software that makes the virtual OS look more "native."

"Intergrated bootcamp" = <insert wishful thinking and unreasonable expectations here>

Sorry, but this whole Leopard is delay because of a "top secret sort of Bootcamp" is a real stretch, largely because what's being hoped for or described isn't really a boot manager at all. :rolleyes:

peharri: Your earlier post re: this subject is one I've read based on reality. I'm not attacking your previous post, or your take on it -- just pointing out the fact that "intergrated bootcamp" is being defined as meaning <insert wishful thinking here>.

Anonymous Freak

Apr 13, 2007, 12:02 PM

Integrated: adjective, having been integrated, in particular with various parts or aspects linked or coordinated.

Basically, "integrated" can mean just that it is included with the OS, rather than a separate download. I wouldn't put too much stock in trying to interpret the precise meanings of words translated from a foreign language. Asian (http://www.engrish.com/) languages in particular are known for not always having the most precise translations.

suneohair

Apr 13, 2007, 12:03 PM

I would say there is no evidence to the contrary either, so you can't be sure either way. And Just because it's not a priority doesn't mean it will never be seen. I'm not saying i agree it's not a priority, it just seemed to me your original statement basically said the same thing, i will give you that saying anymore does have a connotation that it will never be again, although i'm not so sure that was the intent of the statement.

We have evidence by what Apple says. If you want to believe them or not, is up to you. But it definetly isn't out of the question for them to shift resources to the iPhone. Considering the iPhone was barely done when they showed it at Macworld. Software wise of course.

I don't know the original intent of the statement, but the word that was chosen was one that implied the meaning i derived and works with what others are saying. That Apple has abandoned its computers and it focused on iPhone and iPod, I think thread 500 had similar opinions about iPod.

Apple is a rather small company, and they have their hands in a lot different areas. I am sure similar shifts in resources happens in other companies, unfortunetly this decision had an impact on another product.

I want Leopard like everyone else, and was bummed by the news. But the outcry here is ridiculous. And everyone saying "this long for Time Machine and 64-bit" obviously know nothing about software development and should divert their efforts here toward educating themselves. Better yet, they can make their own version of Leopard and get it out in June since they seem to know so much. Thanks.

05elstonc

Apr 13, 2007, 12:07 PM

Very few people have discussed the fact that Apple will demonstrate a feature complete version of Leopard at WWDC. Apple is not going to be silent about Leopard until October, they are actually going to be giving a Beta copy to all in attendance! This is fantastic news! Core Animation is going to be everywhere in the UI and in iLife, this will give 3rd party developers some time to implement some of the new UI conventions into their own app and ship their Leopard only version in October. Because of Core Animation and a few other new API's most new Apps will be Leopard only, therefore developers need to be on board and the OS needs to be stable out of the gate. It is better that Apple has gotten the bad news out of the way now, rather than surprise us at WWDC with a new demo of leopard and a shipping date of October.

suneohair

Apr 13, 2007, 12:08 PM

English is your native language, correct? Good, now that we have cleared that up, go ahead and tell me since when "anymore" is of infinite validity.
Anymore simply means it was before and now isn't. That doesn't mean it won't be again in the future.

I realize it is not an infinite adverb and isn't necessarily true for the future, adding 'never' would have made it more infinite. Your choice in word was no less sensational however, as you could have easily said "right now" instead of anymore.

Whats more, is that you said OS X, which will go on until OS 11. What is that, 5 or 6 years? Maybe less.. maybe more. OS X has much more of a future implication than saying, "Leopard isn't the priority anymore."

If you meant something different, please clairify.

Diatribe

Apr 13, 2007, 12:09 PM

xJulianx

Apr 13, 2007, 12:09 PM

Diatribe

Apr 13, 2007, 12:14 PM

I realize it is not an infinite adverb and isn't necessarily true for the future, adding 'never' would have made it more definite. Your choice in word was no less sensational however, as you could have easily said "right now" instead of anymore.

Whats more, is that you said OS X, which will go on until OS 11. What is that, 5 or 6 years? Maybe less.. maybe more. OS X has much more of a future implication than saying, "Leopard isn't the priority anymore."

If you meant something different, please clairify.

Apple had a big opportunity now with Vista getting bad reviews to grab a lot of marketshare. A lot of people now are thinking about getting a Vista PC since Leopard isn't ready. This is costing Apple money in the short, middle and long-term.
Since they decided to go ahead and do that it means that they expect more sales/money/revenue from the iPhone than from hardware (the two are heavily connected). From that I concluded that OS X is not a big priority anymore because if it had been, and yes I am talking about the distant future too, Apple would have put more emphasis on it.
This only means that after the success with the iPod they see that consumer products have a high return on interest and are shifting their focus. And that, I think, justifies a use of anymore perfectly.

iTron5

Apr 13, 2007, 12:16 PM

We have evidence by what Apple says. If you want to believe them or not, is up to you. But it definetly isn't out of the question for them to shift resources to the iPhone. Considering the iPhone was barely done when they showed it at Macworld. Software wise of course.

I don't know the original intent of the statement, but the word that was chosen was one that implied the meaning i derived and works with what others are saying. That Apple has abandoned its computers and it focused on iPhone and iPod, I think thread 500 had similar opinions about iPod.

Apple is a rather small company, and they have their hands in a lot different areas. I am sure similar shifts in resources happens in other companies, unfortunetly this decision had an impact on another product.

I want Leopard like everyone else, and was bummed by the news. But the outcry here is ridiculous. And everyone saying "this long for Time Machine and 64-bit" obviously know nothing about software development and should divert their efforts here toward educating themselves. Better yet, they can make their own version of Leopard and get it out in June since they seem to know so much. Thanks.

Apple has given no evidence that leopard is/will be their priority again. They stated leopard will be out in october, that doesn't mean it's a priority. Some new iTunes feature could be priority, but that doesn't mean leopard won't come out still. I don't see anywhere where i said i don't believe apple or that it's not a priority, i frankly have no idea and neither does anyone else. I was simply stating that your statement seemed to say the same thing as diatribes.

I've also never said it's good/bad that they shifted focus because frankly it doesn't matter. It is what it is. I would prefer to have the new os over the iphone, but i'm not that concerned either way.

You kind of went off on a tangent about other things in the thread that i never talked about, but just for reference ( since you brought up software development ) i've been a professional software developer for the last 10 years :D

localoid

Apr 13, 2007, 12:19 PM

CJD2112

Apr 13, 2007, 12:23 PM

suneohair

Apr 13, 2007, 12:24 PM

Apple had a big opportunity now with Vista getting bad reviews to grab a lot of marketshare. A lot of people now are thinking about getting a Vista PC since Leopard isn't ready. This is costing Apple money in the short, middle and long-term.
Since they decided to go ahead and do that it means that they expect more sales/money/revenue from the iPhone than from hardware (the two are heavily connected). From that I concluded that OS X is not a big priority anymore because if it had been, and yes I am talking about the distant future too, Apple would have put more emphasis on it.
This only means that after the success with the iPod they see that consumer products have a high return on interest and are shifting their focus. And that, I think, justifies a use of anymore perfectly.

Well there you go. Why the run around about the word and what you meant?

Anyhow. I really don't think 4 months is any real indication of a shift in focus. I of course mean in a major way.

I think a lot of the fear of this happening comes from the idea that the bigger and more popular Apple gets the more the computer end of the business will suffer. And that is a fear of mine as well.

However, as long as Apple delivers and in a good way it is really a non issue. It seems a lot of people here hold Apple as something very close them (as do I), but along with that comes the "no its mine I don't want to share" mentality.

Everyone who loves Apple products is upset by this news. In the long run it is good I think, I feel that if Apple didn't have the iPod, they may not be around today. I like the iPhone, I think it is great. And hey, maybe the iPhone developers will have some great ideas because of it and use it in Leopard.

It is only 4 months people. Seriously. If they said 08, yeah I would freak out a bit. But really, Tiger is still great and is better than Vista. I don't want a pretty finish with no real enhancements. I want a feature rich OS that has learned from users and fixed their issues.

I realize that those of you who can't see past tomorrow will still be upset, this is not bad news however. If any, it is good. As once the iPhone hits, OS X should be going with full steam and will be better because of it.

localoid

Apr 13, 2007, 12:26 PM

Let it be noted that I predict (and have predicted) that Mac OS Leopard will run Windows programs NATIVELY, without any virtualization or boot camp. I believe there is something already being produced, refered to as "WINE", that is attempting this. Perhaps Vista's delay caused the delay of Leopard in that certain features that were worked out need to be changed due to any changes in the final release of Vista...

Wine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)#History) has been around in the Linux world since 1993.

It's nothing new and revolutionary. It's functionality is currently very limited.

Remember "Lindows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindows)" and the wild promises (circa 2001) that Lindows would run any and every Windows program (by using Wine)?

It didn't happen.

suneohair

Apr 13, 2007, 12:29 PM

Apple has given no evidence that leopard is/will be their priority again. They stated leopard will be out in october, that doesn't mean it's a priority. Some new iTunes feature could be priority, but that doesn't mean leopard won't come out still. I don't see anywhere where i said i don't believe apple or that it's not a priority, i frankly have no idea and neither does anyone else. I was simply stating that your statement seemed to say the same thing as diatribes.

I've also never said it's good/bad that they shifted focus because frankly it doesn't matter. It is what it is. I would prefer to have the new os over the iphone, but i'm not that concerned either way.

You kind of went off on a tangent about other things in the thread that i never talked about, but just for reference ( since you brought up software development ) i've been a professional software developer for the last 10 years :D

All of my comments were directed at you. It was more about the general idea around the forums now. I just used my response to you to address those instead of posting again.

I think it indicates priority over the iPhone, which is really a duh since the iPhone will be out. I have no idea what Apples to-do-list looks like. What is bugging me is those pretending like they do. I am going based on what Apple says.

iPhone is going to be be big. We want it done since we have advertised that it will be out in June (Leopard hasn't had any commercials stating it will be out). It really just makes sense. I can't question the truth behind the statement, because it would all be speculation.

But consdering iPhone will be out in June and Leopard in October it is pretty obvious that at some point any resources shifted from the OS X team will be heading back to OS X after iPhone is complete, and that could have happened already and upon assessing where they were, it was realized Spring wouldn't happen.

volvoben

Apr 13, 2007, 12:35 PM

So the argument of the original MR post is that Apple needs 4 months to copy parallels? I enjoy the option of running windows programs if i need to, but shouldn't apple be competing with Vista instead of neglecting development of their own OS in order to integrate with it?

Not buying it. I don't want to trust Apple's PR, especially after reassuring friends that 'Leopard is just around the corner in June at the latest, so just wait until then and you'll have the latest OS for years to come' because of Apple's denial of delay rumors JUST LAST WEEK, but the iphone does seem to be apple's new lover.

The only reason to buy an apple (unless you like paying 15-40% more for the SAME hardware because it's 'prettier') is the OS. Apple makes its profits from hardware because they don't let anyone else use the OS, but now they're not only neglecting their hardware but the underlying OS as well.

I'm sure Apple hasn't given up on computers yet, and I bet Leopard will be a good OS. Nonetheless, even microsoft wouldn't be so stupid as to divert resources from their core business to work on their next zune-ish fluff-gadget.

Tiger works well, and it's still ahead of Vista in most ways, but not by all that much. For 95+% of computer users, Vista is 'good enough', and that should worry Apple.

Tiger is still ahead in some ways, but Vista copied nearly every Tiger feature the average user would notice. You still have the pain of antivirus and spyware/malware, but truthfully most folks would rather spend some time dealing with those problems and spend $600 on a Dell instead of $1200 for a comparable Apple.

Apple needs to realize that as OSs mature, they won't have the 'look at us we're stable and secure' argument anymore. Vista is pretty darn stable I'm afraid, and even XP was fine. My work computer has been on for 3 months straight without a restart (thanks in part to a secure corporate network) with XP and it's fine on this old PIII box, explorer crashed a few times in that stretch but big deal, that took seconds to fix and is no reason to spend more for MacOS.

4 months won't cripple Apple, and it's given me a good excuse to put off the Mac Pro and buy a kayak and Nikon D200, but taken with all the other clues we have today, I hope it's not a sign of things to come.

If MacOS is just another alternative to the windows-dominated computer world, it will fail. Why? IT COSTS MORE WITH FEWER OPTIONS. It needs an advantage; it needs to stay ahead, both in features and in hardware-OS integration. "just working" isn't good enough when any new windows computer does a pretty good job of 'just working' as well.

Apple was doing a pretty good job of getting ahead with faster intel processors and a superior OS while XP lived on forever with 8 billion security patches and got nothing but bad press. Unfortunately the PC world keeps moving along as Apple toils over an ugly little overpriced block of plastic.

I think the iphone will have success, but it will never be mass adopted like the ipod unless it's cheap. Their best hope is probably to follow the RAZR strategy which was 'expensive and exclusive at first, only the coolest of the cool had them, then after a year it'll be free with contract renewal and EVERYONE will get it'. I like the idea of changing the mobile contract-tied market, but please, I have a very nice RAZR in my pocket that I paid nothing for except my $22/mo. slice of a family plan I worked out with my sister and parents who are hours away. in my 2 year contract i'll pay a total of just over $500 for a nice phone with great reception and 5 day battery life and 1/3 of our 800 minutes/mo (plus rollover and n&w of course).

To end my rant, please Apple, give us a hint that you understand MacOS and the related hardware is your very core and essence. Please.

Holy lunchtime rant Batman!!!

ghall

Apr 13, 2007, 01:00 PM

My theory:

Apple never had any secret features for Leopard, but when they saw that people were expecting some killer secret features, they were like "oh shizzle", and had to delay Leopard as a result. :rolleyes:

Wild-Bill

Apr 13, 2007, 01:01 PM

Way to go, Apple. We know where your priorities are now. One need not look farther than the name change.

peharri

Apr 13, 2007, 01:14 PM

Wine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)#History) has been around in the Linux world since 1993.

It's nothing new and revolutionary. It's functionality is currently very limited.

Remember "Lindows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindows)" and the wild promises (circa 2001) that Lindows would run any and every Windows program (by using Wine)?

It didn't happen.

Wine is very compatible if it's used in conjunction with a real copy of Windows (Wine has the capability of using the real DLLs instead of its own cloned versions.) The only serious issues are with those applications that need to address hardware (such as USB drivers), including those that rely upon copy prevention systems.

Apple just bundling Wine wouldn't work, but if they created a Windows installer that also configured a version of Wine to work under Mac OS X, then they could produce something that "just works" in the majority of cases. They'd have to do some work to overcome the problems caused by copy prevention systems, but otherwise...

This is, as you already knows, not to be taken as a sign that I think Apple will incorporate such a technology into Mac OS X. I honestly don't think anyone's barking up the right tree with the Bootcamp/Windows speculation. I think the Apple press release can be taken at face value, this is iPhone related.

Vidd

Apr 13, 2007, 01:14 PM

What I really want to learn from this news is that Apple is going to produce something really special through Leopard and I still won't know until June*.

*When I expected to find out myself through using it.

I probably wouldn't be as upset about this if I planned on getting an iPhone but I don't need an 80GB iPod and an iPhone as well. :/

I'd rather get an e61 which ends up a lot cheaper...

blybug

Apr 13, 2007, 01:19 PM

Way to go, Apple. We know where your priorities are now. One need not look farther than the name change.
Remember in 1996, one year prior to returning to Apple as iCEO, when the adjective most often used to describe Apple was "beleaguered," Steve Jobs was quoted as saying,

"The PC wars are over. Microsoft won a long time ago. If I were the head of Apple, I would milk the Mac for all it's worth and then move on the next big thing."

He's in charge now and true to his word, this is his vision for the future of the company. For Apple to survive it does need to continue to focus its resources on "the next big thing". In another decade the gizmos & gadgets and the Macs will merge and become one. Today's iPhone is tomorrow's Mac in your pocket. I think that is the legacy Jobs is intending to leave and this shift in Apple's focus and change in name lays the groundwork.

Stripped down Leopard is on the iPhone...the iPhone and the AppleTV are specialized Macs in disguise...Leopard is delayed while work is completed on iPhone...iPods with full screens will become indistinguishable from iPhones...today's separate gadgets and computers are the grandparents of tomorrow's unified devices...

Yes, I made a similar post in yesterday's 1000+ post thread, but I think that quote above is important.

localoid

Apr 13, 2007, 02:02 PM

Wine is very compatible if it's used in conjunction with a real copy of Windows (Wine has the capability of using the real DLLs instead of its own cloned versions.) The only serious issues are with those applications that need to address hardware (such as USB drivers), including those that rely upon copy prevention systems.

Apple just bundling Wine wouldn't work, but if they created a Windows installer that also configured a version of Wine to work under Mac OS X, then they could produce something that "just works" in the majority of cases. They'd have to do some work to overcome the problems caused by copy prevention systems, but otherwise...

I've been using Wine since I started using Linux in about '94. It's nothing worth writing home about at this point in time. The OS formerly known as Lindows quickly abandoned their hopes/dreams of their Linux OS running "virtually anything" Windows, without Windows, a long time ago, for a very real-world reason (they couldn't handle the support for every Windows app ever written, and their claims of compatibility bordered on false advertising.)

Apple would be nuts to bundle a version of Wine and market it as allowing OS X 10.5 users as being "able run Windows, without paying for Windows" for a variety of reasons.

Real World (for Joe Average Computer User):

If you absolutely need 100% functionality of a given Windows program, your best bet is to simply boot Windows on a machine that provides full hardware supports for the OS.

If you can "get by" by simply running "many" (but not all) Windows apps, you buy Parallels.

If you can "get by" with even fewer, e.g., some apps, like IE, most of MS Office, and have a great deal of time to muck around with getting apps requring DX10 ('gamez!') to run, then you could go the cheap-thrills route, and use Wine.

This is, as you already knows, not to be taken as a sign that I think Apple will incorporate such a technology into Mac OS X. I honestly don't think anyone's barking up the right tree with the Bootcamp/Windows speculation. I think the Apple press release can be taken at face value, this is iPhone related.

Apple resources are being stretched thin, with good reason (iPhone, OS 10.5, new hardware in '07, etc.), I don't know why it's so difficult for people to accept that reality.

Ironduke

Apr 13, 2007, 02:02 PM

Steves not a stupid man, and apple dont have unlimited resources guys, something had to give and im sure there were many arguements and frowns in cupertino when this decision had to be made.

apple know this is going to cost them some stock points and upset its loyal customers, the question is will they try and make it upto us?

they have already dropped the price of cinema displays?

They could offer all macs bought this year get leopard at a big discount upon release?

They could give big ramps to hardware giving us more bang for our buck.

I know this hasnt happened, but it could happen if apple decide to make it upto us, it could be a great year for mac hardware buyers.

remember its only the software end apple has failed us.

and surely steve knows if apple does nothing between now and october it wont be one of apples best years;)

Griffindor73

Apr 13, 2007, 02:32 PM

What we have learned from the delay:

Apple need to employ more people to work on these things!

localoid

Apr 13, 2007, 02:38 PM

But the big question is why they need 4 months to debug it after it is feature complete. That would only be needed if there were major changes. So WWDC 07 will definitely be interesting.

Not necessarily ("major")... We can assume that during the coming months Apple will be introducing new hardware, much of it likely to use new technologies (Santa Rosa, et al). "Robson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robson_flash_memory)" is a good example of such. While it's safe to assume there are Apple hardware prototypes being tested with the new technologies (such as Robson), until the actual production hardware is released the real-world testing ground, you can't say for sure if this (new tech) will work properly (or not.)

Taking it a bit further: Intel's late-07/early-08 offerings will make use of even more new technologies. Consider SSE4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSE4) for example, which adds new instructions, etc. Until that is tested, with hardware prototypes and in the real-world, you can't be certain it will work properly on Joe Average Computer User's new Mac.

BoyBach

Apr 13, 2007, 02:52 PM

Isn't this the most pointless 'Page 1' story in the history of MacRumors.com?

Honestly.

:rolleyes:

psycoswimmer

Apr 13, 2007, 02:55 PM

Apple makes its profits from hardware...

$600 on a Dell instead of $1200 for a comparable Apple...

I think the iphone will have success, but it will never be mass adopted like the ipod unless it's cheap...

I cut your essay a little short. But here's my response:

First, I'm sure Apple is a software company that makes most of its profits from software.

Apple is really closing on the price difference. Also, between a 20" iMac and a comparable Gateway Windows box, the Gateway cost about $500 more. (My friend's dad just bought a box at Best Buy).

And remember the beginning of the iPod? Look at Thread 500. Also, the first iPod was around $599 (or was it $499?). Either way, the same price as the iPhone. Yet still, people bought the iPod, and it turned into what it is today. Give the iPhone time, and it could be as big as the iPod. Starting off expensive with a small market, and growing huge in time.

localoid

Apr 13, 2007, 03:00 PM

... First, I'm sure Apple is a software company that makes most of its profits from software. ...

If that were true, there would be a Windows versions of Apple's software.

Anonymous Freak

Apr 13, 2007, 03:20 PM

You miss the major plot point:

virtualization != boot manager :rolleyes:

Correct. The source doesn't call it virtualization anywhere. People are somehow concluding that "integrated" Boot Camp means it is now a virtualization software instead of a boot manager. That is a heck of a leap to infer from one word.

TheAnswer

Apr 13, 2007, 03:22 PM

And remember the beginning of the iPod? Look at Thread 500. Also, the first iPod was around $599 (or was it $499?). Either way, the same price as the iPhone. Yet still, people bought the iPod, and it turned into what it is today. Give the iPhone time, and it could be as big as the iPod. Starting off expensive with a small market, and growing huge in time.

I think the comparison to the iPod is the wrong one. The best comparison to the iPhone is the Mac. The iPod had advantages of being an fairly open adoption route from the start...anyone with Mp3 files and Firewire could use it. It was significantly different from other players in the market, not just in terms of the OS, but in terms of size for a HD player. The ease of adoption and the feature set made the iPod take off.

To me, the iPhone is more like a Mac. While the OS is amazing, it's a closed system...one carrier (paralleling the ability to only run the Mac OS on Apple Hardware), the actual phone technology in it is not the different from other phones (both Windows and Macs are on Intel now), the limited music capacity won't let the people currently purchasing the high end music players (who have the $$ for this iPhone) ditch their current model for the iPhone without losing the ability to access all their content (In this way, the iPhone is set up to be the next Cube...they are going after people who have the $$, but expecting them to compromise on functionality).

sishaw

Apr 13, 2007, 03:39 PM

Let it be noted that I predict (and have predicted) that Mac OS Leopard will run Windows programs NATIVELY, without any virtualization or boot camp. I believe there is something already being produced, refered to as "WINE", that is attempting this. Perhaps Vista's delay caused the delay of Leopard in that certain features that were worked out need to be changed due to any changes in the final release of Vista...

Wine has been around for a long time. I used to play with it on Linux. Maybe it's improved, but back then there weren't that many Windows programs that could make use of it. Only a handful.

MacsRgr8

Apr 13, 2007, 03:40 PM

We have witnessed the slow pace in which the dev seeds of the Leopard betas have been seeded for a long while. On top of that, the known-bug lists were still huge in the newest release.

Come one....
Leopard was never going to be ready for a June '07 release since all the 9A3xx releases were still so unstable and bug-ridden, and now 9A4xx too.

Usually when a new Mac OS X 10.x release gets near, we find the dev seeds become ever more frequent (cloese to a new release a week) and that the known-bug list gets very small. Ofcourse this is no guarantee, but seeing the slow "development" of 10.5, I am pretty sure Apple knew Lepoard will be delayed until at least late summer ever since MWSF, but needed the best timing and a good excuse to mention it.
So they chose right before NAB so that some (supposedly) good news would let people forget this bad news quickly, and chose the iPhone as the excuse.

Apple had managed to keep a very, very good record of "delivered as promised" (some past Mac OS X relases... Intel switch etc.) but, let's be honest, in the IT world it is more the exception than the rule to deliver something on time. Micro$oft is worst IMHO.

williedigital

Apr 13, 2007, 04:27 PM

Apple had a big opportunity now with Vista getting bad reviews to grab a lot of marketshare. A lot of people now are thinking about getting a Vista PC since Leopard isn't ready. This is costing Apple money in the short, middle and long-term.

95% of computer users don't even know that apple is planning on releasing a new operating system. Hell, half of mac users don't even know the difference between panther and tiger. get out in the real world. only nerdcore kids even pay attention to this stuff. most people just see some hip kid with a white computer and a pretty interface and want it. It's like a sports car. Most people just see it and want it, and know nothing about the fact that it was originally planned with a faster engine, etc and the company reneged at the last minute.

mcarnes

Apr 13, 2007, 04:34 PM

95% of computer users don't even know that apple is planning on releasing a new operating system. Hell, half of mac users don't even know the difference between panther and tiger. get out in the real world. only nerdcore kids even pay attention to this stuff. most people just see some hip kid with a white computer and a pretty interface and want it. It's like a sports car. Most people just see it and want it, and know nothing about the fact that it was originally planned with a faster engine, etc and the company reneged at the last minute.

While this is all true, who you callin' a nerdcore kid? :p

BigPrince

Apr 13, 2007, 04:37 PM

It is numerous places over at apple.com, one example (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/) is given below. Or do you want a signed letter from Steve Jobs.

Right, and 3 months from now all those references will be quietly changed to Winter 2007 or 4th quarter.

Marky_Mark

Apr 13, 2007, 05:18 PM

Blast it Apple, we just keep waiting...and waiting...and waiting for Leopard. First, Macworld. Then, about half a year later, WWDC '07. Now, October. Damn the iPhone, we want our OS. The iPhone has way too many strings attached for it to make them a huge amount of money. Just give us Leopard. Blast it, now that we have to wait until October they had better have the LED screens on the MacBook by then. And maybe faster processors too. I keep waiting for Leopard to buy my MacBook. For now I'm stuck with win-doze xp, so Leopard is essentially my lifesaver.

If you feel that strongly, what exactly are you waiting for? Just buy the laptop, and get an upgrade in the Autumn. I don't understand all this bitchin' an' moaning - you either need the machine or you don't. Wait six months and six months after that your kit will be just as outdated.

Carpe Diem!

EagerDragon

Apr 13, 2007, 07:42 PM

Makes the 8 core a publicly available developer's platform. Load the beta after WWDC and get busy. :rolleyes: :eek:

I second that, all that power and no serious way to release it.

Lets, see what was that about the last 30 years and whats to come?
Did't Apple had something like that not long ago eluding to the next year (2007) being even better than ever?

So far I have not seen much.

It's simple guys... Digitimes said "October delay for Leopard because of integrated Boot Camp".

You can believe they got lucky with the "October" date when everyone thought they were crazy, or you can pause and realize they had some real information and therefore should be paid attention to

You can interpret it how you want, but my interpretation was posted here (http://normalkid.com/2007/03/29/digitimes-could-still-be-right/):

I'm not saying it's necessarily true. I think Apple entering this sort of market would be wrong, but the Digitimes' report is worth noting.

arn

You state that that move maybe wrong for Apple, but it seems that Apple is hell bend on getting switchers. First by allowing them to boos windows, by the comercials, by the demos on the stores, by introducing the phone and apple tv. I would not rule out much at this stage. Apple is playing by a different Fiddle than we may expect.

Tsk tsk. Didn't Apple already come out and publicly deny rumors that BootCamp would be like Parallels?

But then again "people don't want video on their iPods" and "Apple wants to keep the computer and TV separate" :p

Also don't forget them denying that Leopard would not be delayed.

Apple been doing a lot ff Lying lately. Maybe I should say "using creative PR"?

blashphemy

Apr 13, 2007, 07:47 PM

I do think that Apple will include some kind of x86 virtualization tech in Leopard. Hell, Apple buying Parallels would be a good thing for Apple in the long run - true, it does dilute the OS and alienates the core user base, but i mean come on regarding application compatibility Apple is still waaaay behind, and there are still many OS X apps out there that still do not have Universal support. Yes there are many alternatives, but nothing beats just finding something on the net, dling the exe, and trying it out for the frick of it. You cant do that with OS X for the most part. Also, if Parallels was built into the OS and offered 100% or at least something like 95% app speed for Win apps, Apple would have gotten much much more money off the initial Mac Pro release because content developers wouldnt have been b****ing about the lack of Universal support for Adobe CS2 (i.e. Photoshop) cause it would have run natively anyways. Im sure there are many other examples out there as well.

There is one thing that gives me pause:

Go back to the original presentation where Steve Jobs mentions the top secret features. In it, he mentioned something like "we dont want MS to start their photocopiers too early" or something like that.
1) How would Time Machine not fall under this category of things that Apple wants to keep secret? Now, under Windows Vista Ultimate + Enterprise, MS has a fully automated image-based backup system, which while not even close to the utility of Time Machine, comes somewhat close. But more importantly:
2) Why would Parallels type stuff be under wraps? How would MS copy this kind of tech? You really think MS is going to say, oh btw were now going to allow Vista users to run OS X apps?! It doesnt make any sense, which is an argument for the idea that there is no x86 support in leopard.

The Lord Jobs works in mysterious ways... ;)

kgibbs

Apr 13, 2007, 08:10 PM

The delay in Leopard may have something to do with internal resources and everything else. But, I think that the single biggest reason Leopard is delayed is share of wallet. If you just popped $500/$600 on an iPhone in June, you would probably wait to spend an additional $130 on Leopard. Releasing it in October lets the Apple fan base forget their last big expediture and should let Apple hit their forecasts for # of units sold at release.

rezatayebi

Apr 13, 2007, 08:16 PM

I've learned that I now have until christmas until the applications I use within OS X to be supported by Leopard. Fine by me, Tiger works.

tiger works fine..... on my powerpc? yeah
on my intel based mac pro and my dad`s macbook? no!
tiger have some serious bugs on intel based macs. the beta versians of leopard have A LOT MORE problems. so dont be waiting for leopard. it seems like we`re going to be stick to what we`ve got FOR A LONG TIME.

jessica.

Apr 13, 2007, 08:18 PM

I learned that I could care less about bootcamp and I don't like to wait, but I will.

VanNess

Apr 13, 2007, 10:57 PM

I think Apple learned that it's not a good idea to roll out two high-profile products at the same time.

Up until now, the best guesswork pointed to WWDC as the likely timeframe for Leopard's release, which would have collided with the iPhone release. Instead of having two separate products competing for the consumer's attention span (and headlines) and risk the hype for one diminishing in the face of the other, Apple can space the releases apart to allow maximum hype efforts for each.

So June will be the month of the iPhone, with WWDC taking a back seat simply playing the teaser role for Leopard. Come October, just as the initial wave of iPhone hype has run its course, it's Leopard time. This way Apple can grab the majority tech mindshare sustained and uninterrupted for half of a year.

job

Apr 14, 2007, 12:02 AM

I'm surprised that no one has considered how close the iPhone and Mac OS really are.

If Apple had to pull the same people and swap them between products, that means that the iPhone is running another version of Mac OS, similar to AppleTV. I think what we're seeing here is not only a convergence of hardware to display your media in the living room, office, and in your pocket, but also a step towards embedding the Mac OS into things other than just computers.

How much longer until we see other phone manufacturers licensing Mac OS to run on their handhelds just like Microsoft, Symbian, and Palm do?

And if Apple can prove how scalable their OS is, especially for things like multimedia servers and set-top boxes, they might be able to find their way into the living rooms of people that wouldn't normally use the Mac OS on their computers.

BiikeMike

Apr 14, 2007, 12:11 AM

Edit: Saw the other Edit. :)

BillyShears

Apr 14, 2007, 12:20 AM

I'm surprised that no one has considered how close the iPhone and Mac OS really are.

If Apple had to pull the same people and swap them between products, that means that the iPhone is running another version of Mac OS, similar to AppleTV.

We've known that (http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/specs.html) for some time:

"Operating system OS X"

lmcargo

Apr 14, 2007, 12:33 AM

The last Apple I owned was the IIgs; used a PC ever since. Too bad about the delay, I was going to swap over to Macs. The delay tells me Apple is no longer serious about their desktop platforms. Their focus is on trendy devices for a younger generation. Nothing wrong with that, it's all good buisness I guess. I was looking to outfit my business with all new Macs as well...wanted my first purchase for myself though. Waiting six months is one thing, but the thought that Apple may shift its focus away from the desktop is another. I've spent the last five months researching both Vista and Leopard, was excited about going Mac....for now, I'm rethinking my next purchase.

obafamecar

Apr 14, 2007, 04:10 AM

Is is just me, or is part of this Leopard delay statement a not-so-subtle guarantee that Leopard will have multi-touch? Is this common knowledge or is no one commenting on it, or what? Their 'official word' included, and I quote: "We can’t wait until customers get their hands (and fingers) on it and experience what a revolutionary and magical product it is."

I think this is a good thing (the delay) - they threw all of us nerds a huge bone with that 1 sentence. I'm waiting happily until October (or November, or next year).

jhande

Apr 14, 2007, 05:13 AM

I think that all the posts about 'OMG Apple is abandoning OS X' really have missed the point.

Consider that in the future *all* products are going to run a variant of OS X, whether on a laptop, desktop, iPod og iPhone or [insert nifty new product here].

Remember the integration between Windows and stuff like WinCE? Now do it the 'apple way' with proper integration, and then tell me they have abandoned OS X.

Apple is going through probably some of the most difficult engineering tasks that can be done: breaking down an existing OS to its most necessary parts. In effect, they have created (or in the process of) an embedded OS, with bits tagged on depending on the operating environment. If they pull this off, they are going to have the most rock solid OSes out there, and then wait and see what happens. They will then have the ability to *really* infect every type of electronic device out there.

Oh yeah, if I can have the same type of API whether it is an iPhone, a MB, or an octo-core monster, what a fantastic development environment that would be. I'd just have to load different userland libraries depending on where my program is supposed to operate.

Heh, abandoning OS X..... Not bloody likely.

Father Jack

Apr 14, 2007, 05:23 AM

tiger works fine..... on my powerpc? yeah
on my intel based mac pro and my dad`s macbook? no!
tiger have some serious bugs on intel based macs.
I am running Tiger on three Intel Mac's here ...... I haven't found any bugs, serious or not. :confused:

FJ :)

eenu

Apr 14, 2007, 07:24 AM

If the June WWDC07 Beta version is so feature complete why not release it as a public beta so that the consumers still feel happy that they can try it in June and Apple would get greater feedback!

Maybe it's because it really isn't that ready for June!

Vidd

Apr 14, 2007, 07:43 AM

Why did it slip so many months? I still don't get it.
Is it really that bug-ridden or are they so inefficiently resourced that they really need another 4 months?

psychofreak

Apr 14, 2007, 07:48 AM

I am running Tiger on three Intel Mac's here ...... I haven't found any bugs, serious or not. :confused:

FJ :)

It can crash, and Kernel Panics seem more common :)

thewhitehart

Apr 14, 2007, 08:12 AM

I can list and remember all of the problems I've had with Intel Tiger. I could never do that with Windows. Before this is implied to be a negative post, on the contrary it is a testament to how much better the mac platform is.

1. Airport was destroyed by 10.4.8, dropping connection and requiring a reset. It is still wonky post-updates and 10.4.9
2. A windowserver_last log file ran away, becoming 32 GB big. On top of that, erasing free space as an attempt to fix it made a sparse image 97 GB big!
3. Once in a while the system sounds disappear, like emptying the trash, requiring a reset.
4. Menu bar items disappear or get misplaced somewhere else on the menu bar.
5. Once in a while, it won't wake from sleep.

That's it! Even if some consider this to be the crippled stepchild version of OS X, it is far better than what I experienced under Windows.

By the way, I had no problems whatsoever with Power PC Tiger. I don't think the delay until October will be so bad, I'd like to see more refinement to OS X on intel machines.

chiphead

Apr 14, 2007, 08:17 AM

Apple has given until it can give no more. In past year-year and half we've been given movies on iTunes, ipod video, intel macs, revamped every mac, new nano's and shuffles, Apple TV, 8 core Mac Pros, iPhone, new Airport Extreme.
WHAT ELSE DO YOU PEOPLE WANT?!! They ask for 4 months to breathe on an OS release (that will no doubt blow us away) - I WONDER WHY?!!

Ha... :)

job

Apr 14, 2007, 11:02 AM

We've known that (http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/specs.html) for some time:

"Operating system OS X"

Right I know that and so does everyone else who watched the keynote, but how many more devices is Apple going to be able to stuff Mac OS into?

We're not only seeing our media files taken off the computer and into our pockets, but we're seeing the entire OS go with it. The iPhone and AppleTV are going to find their way into homes that don't already have an Apple computer. I bet there is going to be a difference between how many computers Apple has sold and how much of a penetration Mac OS has in the overall OS market, especially if you count the embedded variants.

I think that all the posts about 'OMG Apple is abandoning OS X' really have missed the point.

Consider that in the future *all* products are going to run a variant of OS X, whether on a laptop, desktop, iPod og iPhone or [insert nifty new product here].

Yup. Restated for truth. We're going to see OS X in a lot more places, in a lot of different devices, places that you would have never expected to see a Mac OS.

If they pull this off, they are going to have the most rock solid OSes out there, and then wait and see what happens. They will then have the ability to *really* infect every type of electronic device out there.

Oh yeah, if I can have the same type of API whether it is an iPhone, a MB, or an octo-core monster, what a fantastic development environment that would be. I'd just have to load different userland libraries depending on where my program is supposed to operate.

:) Exactly! I bet we'll see more manufacturers license the different version of Mac OS to suit their needs. What we're seeing here is heads-up competition for Windows Mobile.

Heh, abandoning OS X..... Not bloody likely.

:D

localoid

Apr 14, 2007, 11:18 AM

...:) Exactly! I bet we'll see more manufacturers license the different version of Mac OS to suit their needs. What we're seeing here is heads-up competition for Windows Mobile.:D

We'll soon be seeing more competition in the ultra-mobile area than most people realize... ;)

Microsoft ... has been working with hardware makers on developing ultra mobile PCs that would run its software in a project code-named Origami.

But Intel has its own initiative under way for ultra mobile PCs, many of which still run Microsoft software. Intel has been steadily moving toward alternative platforms like Apple since January when Apple debuted the first Intel-based Macs.

The source (http://www.transmediacorp.com/news/news_10-13-06.html) of the above quote is virtually unknown player in the ultra-mobile game, yet they're apparently getting into the um game in several areas, claiming their solution can "make any phone an iPhone (http://www.transmediacorp.com/news/news_03-14-07.html?sub=techmaven)" :rolleyes:

Rocket Rion

Apr 14, 2007, 11:35 AM

TheAnswer

Apr 14, 2007, 12:27 PM

I learned (again) that Thinksecret is as unreliable as the National Enquirer for inside information....

Think Secret, two months ago:

Development of Mac OS X 10.5 is wrapping up faster than many at Apple even anticipated, and at present, a release can be expected as early as late March, sources say.

Think Secret, in an “exclusive” scoop 11 days ago:

Apple is currently planning to release Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard in June, mostly likely at or around its Worldwide Developers Conference, reliable sources report.

I think we can all shun Thinksecret now, can't we?

The funniest part is that only one comment post in the past couple of days is critical of their reporting and imaginary sources. They must keep a pretty close eye on the comments and delete as necessary. Thinksecret is actually less entertaining than that dreck MOSR used to spout...at least MOSR had a dreamlike Fellini-esque quality about it.

Gump

Apr 14, 2007, 01:04 PM

With a delay until October, I won't be happy until Leopard can run Windows executables natively with the help of a few Vista DLL's!!!!

Now try that on for size Apple, I'd prefer to keep a full-blown MS operating system off my Mac and run Windows software instead!

localoid

Apr 14, 2007, 01:18 PM

With a delay until October, I won't be happy until Leopard can run Windows executables natively with the help of a few Vista DLL's!!!!...

A Windows exe running via the emulation of the Window API "with the help of a few Vista DLL's" isn't running "native" under OS X by any stretch of the imagination... :rolleyes:

A "native" application would be an app compiled on OS X that directly accesses OS X system libraries.

Naimfan

Apr 14, 2007, 01:45 PM

:( i wanted to switch this summer to laptop with Leopard.

I've not read through this entire thread, but this post and others like it really make me shake my head. Why, exactly, would you wait to switch "this summer" when no one outside of Apple definitively knows what advantages Leopard will have? If you want a laptop, and it will do what you want it to, buy one now. Why, precisely, was Leopard so important?

Best,

Bob

Naimfan

Apr 14, 2007, 02:37 PM

Too bad about the delay, I was going to swap over to Macs. The delay tells me Apple is no longer serious about their desktop platforms. Their focus is on trendy devices for a younger generation. Nothing wrong with that, it's all good buisness [sic] I guess. I was looking to outfit my business with all new Macs as well...wanted my first purchase for myself though. Waiting six months is one thing, but the thought that Apple may shift its focus away from the desktop is another. I've spent the last five months researching both Vista and Leopard, was excited about going Mac....for now, I'm rethinking my next purchase.

I'm sorry, this is simply absurd. You contradict yourself in the space of three sentences--you say "[t]he delay tells me Apple is no longer serious about their desktop platforms," and then, in the third following sentence, you say "the thought that Apply may shift its focus away from the desktop is another." So either they are no longer serious about their desktop platforms, which is think is simply absurd, or you are concerned that they are going to shift their focus away from the desktop. Those are two inconsistent statements.

Also, your statements reflect no acceptance of Apple's own stated reason for the delay--that the OSX code warriors had to be diverted to the iPhone. While the iPhone's operating system is based on, and compatible with, OSX, any work they did on the iPhone had to be at the expense of something else--namely, Leopard. Ditto for the Apple TV. It also doesn't consider the statements from people here who receive developer seeds. Also, I'm curious how you research for five months a product that isn't available?

I don't mean to pick on you personally--there are a lot of similar posts in the pages I've read on this thread. And delay can't be the only reason you have for not investing in Macs--if a 4 month delay were, you never would have considered Vista in the first place, which was delayed something like two years.

My sense is that Leopard will reflect a lot of integration for Apple--including the iPhone, Apple TV (which is surely only the beginning), iPods, etc., as well as a larger emphasis on corporate markets, with their need for stability, networking, etc., as well as completing the Intel transition. So I suspect one of the major reasons for the delay is in making sure Leopard is both complete (as in being mostly bug-free and functional) as well as comprehensive (by which I mean able to integrate and adapt to Apple's new hardware--iPhone, Apple TV, whatever else comes, and reaching to other markets).

I have no real opinion on whether (or when) Apple knew Leopard would not be ready for a June release. I suspect the actual programmers knew a while ago, but that in inevitable corporate fashion upper management (from VP to SVP) did not become aware until later, and that the decision to announce the release delay was discussed extensively at the EVP/CEO level.

Best,

Bob

Bosunsfate

Apr 14, 2007, 03:07 PM

But the big question is why they need 4 months to debug it after it is feature complete. That would only be needed if there were major changes. So WWDC 07 will definitely be interesting.

Those with expierence in developing large softare projects certainly realize that a 4 month release cycle from feature complete is not that long. Many projects take much longer than 4 months.

Why did it slip so many months? I still don't get it.
Is it really that bug-ridden or are they so inefficiently resourced that they really need another 4 months?

This slip is nothing. In fact, given the software industry's track record Apple has one of the best records for releasing software on time. The fact that they want a few extra months to make sure the iPhone goes out on time, and slip the OS by a few months...what a no brainer decision.

For those of you still complaining...why don't you hit the streets and complain about something that is really taking too long...this US Presidency...

SteveG4Cube

Apr 14, 2007, 03:10 PM

I think people need to look at the bigger picture here. Everyone who's bitching that Apple isn't a computer company anymore need to realize that Jobs makes no secret of this. He's often said things about moving his vision onto other things. Remember when Apple said they wanted Macs to be the hub of people's digital life? They've been building toward this for a long time now. Before there was an iLife or iPod, there was iMovie.

Using a Mac as a central spot for all of today's technology to come together has really been their long term goal (for the consumer market - there will always be a different need for pro users). Now we've got iPods, :apple: TVs, wireless internet, Bluetooth phones, and countless other stuff that all comes together thanks to our computers. Next we'll have the iPhone, running a compact version of OSX.

All of this goes hand in hand with OS development. Whether you use an iPod, iPhone, :apple: TV, or some other device with your Mac, everyone benefits in some way from this level of integration. Waiting a couple more months for them to polish it is only going to benefit everyone. In the meantime, we have Tiger which does the job just fine.

Maybe they didn't "invent" MP3 players, phones, or even computers, but just like how the Apple ][ pushed PCs into the mainstream, so has the iPod done with portable digital music. And so might :apple: TV and iPhone do so with online video content and do-it-all phones. All of this means brand recognition, which brings switchers, which means more people experience the OS that everyone thinks Apple is abandoning.

Some of the newcomers may not remember the dark times, and laugh at those who drink the Kool Aid from within the RDF of Steve, but I think it's about the best time ever to be a Mac user and it's only gonna get better.

lmcargo

Apr 14, 2007, 03:26 PM

I'm sorry, this is simply absurd. You contradict yourself in the space of three sentences--you say "[t]he delay tells me Apple is no longer serious about their desktop platforms," and then, in the third following sentence, you say "the thought that Apply may shift its focus away from the desktop is another." So either they are no longer serious about their desktop platforms, which is (sp I) think is simply absurd, or you are concerned that they are going to shift their focus away from the desktop. Those are two inconsistent statements.

I feel Apple is no longer serious about their desktop platforms, which is the reason for their shift (in this case the delay to work on the iPhone) to other devices.

Also, your statements reflect no acceptance of Apple's own stated reason for the delay--that the OSX code warriors had to be diverted to the iPhone. While the iPhone's operating system is based on, and compatible with, OSX, any work they did on the iPhone had to be at the expense of something else--namely, Leopard. Ditto for the Apple TV.

That's my point.

And delay can't be the only reason you have for not investing in Macs--if a 4 month delay were, you never would have considered Vista in the first place, which was delayed something like two years.

I didn't need a total IT infrastructure replacement two years ago. If I had, the Vista delay would've bothered me as well. I need a total new infrastructure by mid summer. I'm currently running a legacy Sun infrastructure. We, my IT department and I, began researching for replacements back in the fall. Granted, no one in my IT department received betas...we contracted out to research firms for their advice. At that time Vista was nearing completion, Apple was progressing as well. I could've gone the Vista route but it was my decision to actually waited for Leopard.

lmcargo

Apr 14, 2007, 03:26 PM

coffey7

Apr 14, 2007, 04:34 PM

I hope the delay is to make it really a big step forward instead of just a visual update of the current OS.

Bosunsfate

Apr 14, 2007, 05:08 PM

I didn't need a total IT infrastructure replacement two years ago. If I had, the Vista delay would've bothered me as well. I need a total new infrastructure by mid summer. I'm currently running a legacy Sun infrastructure. We, my IT department and I, began researching for replacements back in the fall. Granted, no one in my IT department received betas...we contracted out to research firms for their advice. At that time Vista was nearing completion, Apple was progressing as well. I could've gone the Vista route but it was my decision to actually waited for Leopard.

If you are serious about completly replacing your IT infrastructure, the last thing you should be doing is trying to time that with a new release of software.

The last thing you want is to deal with the numerous patches that will come after the first release. Its the nature of new software.

Go with Tiger, its stable and still a killer OS.

Bosunsfate

Apr 14, 2007, 05:13 PM

I hope the delay is to make it really a big step forward instead of just a visual update of the current OS.

I would feel pretty confident that Leopard is not a "visual" update. If it was, why would that cause a delay as engineers were pulled off to work on the iPhone.

What you see happening (as well with the AppleTV) is that Leopard is under the hood on all of the new products that Apple is releasing, named and unamed.

That means the integration between all of these is going to be really hard, and if they can still do it all and deliver by October...I'll be impressed.

Stella

Apr 14, 2007, 05:23 PM

I'll buy another laptop when 10.5 comes out too.

Why? Because 10.5 comes 'free' with the laptop. I'm looking to change anyway, and its cheaper to buy when 10.5 is out rather than buying PowerBook now + 10.5 later. I can wait until October.

I can use the $170 on other things.

I've not read through this entire thread, but this post and others like it really make me shake my head. Why, exactly, would you wait to switch "this summer" when no one outside of Apple definitively knows what advantages Leopard will have? If you want a laptop, and it will do what you want it to, buy one now. Why, precisely, was Leopard so important?

Best,

Bob

Naimfan

Apr 14, 2007, 05:40 PM

LM--

You said "I feel Apple is no longer serious about their desktop platforms, which is the reason for their shift (in this case the delay to work on the iPhone) to other devices." So why, then, would you say "the thought that Apply may shift its focus away from the desktop is another." Both of those statements cannot be true. Either Apple already has shifted away, or they have not. You believe (apparently) that Apple has shifted and is no longer "serious" about desktop platforms. That's fine, but you cannot maintain both positions.

As to the rest--I wish you only the best with a complete infrastructure replacement. Not a fun time!

Best,

Bob

budward

Apr 14, 2007, 06:22 PM

nuckinfutz

Apr 14, 2007, 06:58 PM

You know.. delay the damn iPhone instead, after all OSX doesn't have the market share the iPhone will have right? Wrong! Why even announce the iPhone 6 months early... sheesh.. all I want my cell phone to do is call someone.. I don't need it to email, take a pic, video game, play music and built a bridge...

WTF cares... Apple you blow for choosing iPhone over Leopard.

And since I am on a rant right now... Parallels is the worst *expletive* company that sells software for OSX. There support is non-existant, yes they say we offer free email support.. well I have sent hmm.. 5 emails to them without a reply. They are a total "Take the money and run company" Why do they get such good press, there product has nothing on VMware fusion. I have both and VMware even offers you email support on their beta product, not to mention it supports my 30" display for linux and BSD. Parallels you are greedy *expletive* scum.

Ahhh.. I think I forgot my medication today...

Sorry if I am annoying, but truthfully both these issues got under my skin.

I understand your frustration. The problem is that the iPhone has competition and Leopard does not. If Apple bungles the iPhone launch then they corroborate the FUD that came from companies like Nokia and other stalwarts in the cell game. Delaying the iPhone would be perceived "very" negatively. Leopard is going to be a great OS but let's be honest it's not "Mission Critical" that we get Leopard before the iPhone.

Sorry to hear about Parallels. They are local to my area..maybe I'll go there and bust some heads for you. They better improve because VMware has the name and experience.

DJ OJ

Apr 14, 2007, 08:21 PM

I know I have no knowledge of software codingish stuff and not a lot about apple compared to you guys but all I want to say is, give the guys at apple a break. those developers spend all day and sometimes night working on great, beautiful products and because of a small ( Like nothing compared to vista) delay the whole mac community is angry! I know iPhone is going to be great, I know Leopard is going to be great and I am HAPPY to wait for quality software!

BTW, I don't that apple is not serious about their computers. SO HA! :)

thewhitehart

Apr 14, 2007, 10:03 PM

CJD2112

Apr 15, 2007, 01:02 AM

piltupso

Apr 15, 2007, 01:20 AM

I learned where Apple is really interested in allocating its resources.

uraniumwilly

Apr 15, 2007, 10:31 AM

I learned that some people whine a lot. I also learned that Tiger is a great OS that is still ahead of Vista.

I'd guess the OS Leopard ship might have chozen to perform some directional adjustment to further accentuate Apple from Vista.

Or maybe it's the bugs.

chesterville

Apr 15, 2007, 10:39 AM

Any Wall Street pundit would tell you that delaying Leopard and making sure the iPhone comes out first is the right call for Apple. It's pretty obvious, I don't think it needs explaining.

People who already own macs are unlikely to ditch their chosen platform because of an operating system delay. (Most people, not including the irrational macrumors demographic :D ). People who worry about Leopard are, like another poster hinted, nerdcore. Your average new mac buyer can care less about Leopard, if they even know what it is.

We have rumor sites like this because Apple is too smart to fall victim to the Osbourne Effect. What we learn from Leopard's delay is that people who are very enthusiastic about a company (like us) are often ill-suited too see what is best for business. That's also why companies like Apple have had mass firing purges in the past.

Putting the iPhone first was a good call on Apple's part.

I completely agree with thewhitehart on this. People who use this site have to remember that most of the 100 million iPods Apple has sold have been to "mainstream" customers. Apple is now much more than a computer company, and I think this will prove to be a good thing over the long run, even for those of you who complain that "Apple doesn't care about computers anymore" - it will allow Apple to offer you more innovative products and services, and more revenue = more R & D. Apple will continue to lead the way in computers, and is beginning to do the same in consumer electronis.

Secondly, regardless of whether or not the iPhone is the true culprit behind Leopard's delay (I suspect it is not), after spending the last couple of months trashing MS and Vista, Apple has to ensure that Leopard is the best darn OS they've ever released.

Thirdly, people will continue to buy macs. I say this from experience. I still plan on buying a MB (or MBP, still haven't decided) this summer because Apple still makes pound-for-pound and dollar-for-dollar the best computers, and Tiger is much, much better than Vista or XP. Be thankful you at least have Tiger, it will tide you over until October...

Father Jack

Apr 15, 2007, 12:28 PM

It can crash, and Kernel Panics seem more common :)
Perhaps I'm just lucky ...... or the Lord is on my side (LOL):) :)

FJ

localoid

Apr 15, 2007, 06:19 PM

Ok, so maybe it wasn't WINE that I was thinking of, but I did read in a few places that there has been talk of getting rid of "Boot Camp" altogether and somehow allowing Windows programs to run natively as independent programs on Intel systems with the new OS.

Oh yes, there's never a lack of "talk" about <insert fantastic sounding, but totally unreasonable to expect feature here> that supposedly is going to be part of Leopard.

The reality is that there are existing solutions for people who need to run Windows programs, e.g., emulators or virtualization software. But Apple would have to be crazy to include same within the OS. There's no way they could handle the support for running any and every Windoze program ever created, or yet to be created. ;)

Episteme

Apr 16, 2007, 01:34 AM

Oh yes, there's never a lack of "talk" about <insert fantastic sounding, but totally unreasonable to expect feature here> that supposedly is going to be part of Leopard.

The reality is that there are existing solutions for people who need to run Windows programs, e.g., emulators or virtualization software. But Apple would have to be crazy to include same within the OS. There's no way they could handle the support for running any and every Windoze program ever created, or yet to be created. ;)

To implement the Vista APIs on OS X would be commercial suicide for Apple.

Who would continue to write Apple-native software if they could just say "use the Windows version"?

Same thing happened with OS/2 when they offered the ability to run Windows software -- practically no native software outside of IBM's own (and even then, in some cases, depending on division!) resulted in a user-base with a lot of Windows software. The logical upgrade path end up being to go to Windows, especially when you find updates of software you already own don't work quite right on your "guest API" implementation.

Virtualization offers better compatibility -- it's the "real thing", after all -- and since third parties can't rely on it being present, any market that offers competition will still result in native software rather than a "use the Windows version". Plus, much less chance of a lawsuit from Microsoft.