Desktop Multitouch Screen Technology?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

DailyTechRag.com (http://www.dailytechrag.com/node/5440) mixes some creative speculation with comments from Synaptics.

Synaptics first gained recognition for supplying the click-wheels for Apple's earlier iPods. More recently, they made headlines with a concept phone (http://www.macrumors.com/2006/08/22/synaptics-clearpad-technology/) called Onyx which demonstrated a technology called "ClearPad" -- "a thin, high resolution capactitive touch screen that can be placed over any viewable surface."

Synaptics became the obvious source of the impressive touch-screen technology that was demoed on the iPhone, but Synaptics hasn't said one way or another if they are working with Apple. Regardless, there's growing industry interest in this multitouch / capacitance-based technology.

There has been speculation that Apple may adopt this touch-technology more broadly across their Mac platform. Synaptics' Clark Foy doubts that full screen touch sensitive displays are coming soon, for both cost and practical issues:

"I think that to make the entire display touch sensitive will be very expensive. You're talking about altering the whole user paradigm of having your hands down on some user input device and looking at the screen."
...
"You might want to do that a few times but you don't want to sit there and do it for 25, 30 minutes at a time".

Instead, Foy suggests that perhaps "simple onscreen controls that show up on the edge of the display" may be a more feasible direction and that Synaptics was already working on that sort of technology.

DailyTechRag suggests that Apple could take advantage of this sort of technology for a touch-sensitive dock, but it remains purely speculative. However, interest in this technology is clear, and with increasing availability, we could certainly see this integrated into future computers/displays.

[DMann]

The idea is great, but your arms would fatigue rather quickly..... the mouse still seems to remain the ideal input device.

[steve_hill4]

The idea is great, but your arms would fatigue rather quickly..... the mouse still seems to remain the ideal input device.

I would largely agree, but for certain tasks, tablets and touch screens would be much more productive. Continuous usage is not good, but for working with photos and such, it is inevitable.

[rxse7en]

I can't believe how much I have to clean my LCDs now--and I don't touch them.*:eek:

[steve_hill4]

Oh, and to remind everyone of what this could become, check out Jeff Han's research:

http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/

[thejadedmonkey]

My friend has a touch screen monitor, and it's nice, but it does make my arm tired rather quickly... and I wished that it had a right-click (but this was XP too)

[Tadros86]

That'd be really cool for the dock to appear with your fingers as an option, instead of it just popping up whenever you are trying to do something and accidentally hit it. :p

[FJ218700]

I think a compromise would be to have the whole screen touch sensitive but also give the user an optional touch-sensitive trackpad (kind of like mirrored monitors) with a trackball at the top also.

[hyperpasta]

What makes sense to me is replacing or supplementing the keyboard with a multitouch tablet. In iTunes, buttons for controlling music playback would appear. In Photoshop, tool icons would appear. But if I'm working on my computer for extended periods of time, I don't want to keep my hands raised, reaching out towards the screen.

Note: Another thing that would work would be having the computer be facing up like a sheet of paper on a desk.

[pacohaas]

how about just a touch mousepad instead of a mouse (think large trackpad).

edit: ok, quick google shoes that those do exists, but apple should steal the idea and make it better, a-la ipod

[arn]

What makes sense to me is replacing or supplementing the keyboard with a multitouch tablet. =

This existed

http://www.fingerworks.com/

and interestingly this company was acquired by Apple.

arn

[zelmo]

Who says it has to be the display?
Why not have the touch surface be where the keyboard is on your laptop, so you could have a touchscreen QWERTY, then change to a touchscreen mixer or some other interface. Anyone recall those patents Apple applied for?

[nagromme]

A mouse does a great job, more quickly and MUCH less tiringly than lifting your arm up to the screen (or even the screen edge).

A mouse is also MUCH cheaper than a desktop-size touchscreen, and dodges a huge durability issue. Not to mention a smudge issue, which is tolerable on a handheld but not on a desktop you use for a whole day (and which never goes in a case or pocket to wipe itself clean).

Cool to think about, but it shouldn't come to market and it won't, outside of specialized purposes (and we already have touchscreens for those).

The evolution of touch interfaces--and especially Apple's multitouch--IS a big deal... for SMALL devices. (Trackpads included: we've seen Apple trackpads do more and more, and Apple has had cool patents for years on touch areas that cover the whole palmrest.)

[nagromme]

Here is one link to an Apple wide trackpad/touchpad patent:

http://hrmpf.com/wordpress/64/apples-wide-trackpad

There was another much earlier one, showing a stylus, and signing a name on the palmrest, but I can't find it.

[Maccus Aurelius]

Oh how I would love a multitouch display pad that would work similarly to a Wacom, but without the single point input properties of the Cintique. I do lots of stuff with Wacoms, but it's just not the same when I have to coordinate the pen with the pointer on the screen. This orientation issue is part of the reason why I get thrown back to the paper. I currently have ArtRage that I love to mess around with, and something like this would quite simply make my millenium.

[richard4339]

I would think a touch-sensitive area on the keyboard would be more useful, and could have interesting uses. We've already seen LED keyboards, it could be used in that sense too.

[the vj]

Actually a 30" Apple Cinema Screen.

It is very very nice and usefull.... when it works. I bought my screen a year ago and sent it to a company call "TrollTouch", they add touchscreen to anything, even powerbooks.

As I work in live shows I need to access to my clips very fast, ther is not even time to grab the mouse sometimes. Literally the control of my software in my finguertips.

The problem is that the screen stoped working and the people at Troll Touch just didn't reply any of my emails and they blocked my phone number.

I searched for the actual manofacturer and I got in touch with Touch Base systems in the UK. They told me they no longuer work with Troll Touch for the same reasons but they only create the software while Troll Touch create the hardware.

At the end, I ended up with a $5000 Apple Cinema Screen that doesn't work.

A friend of mine got two 20" iMacs as well from the same vendor and they still working just fine after a year even it seems like one of the touchscreen are loosing the touch capabilities.

Any way, here is a picture of my set up. The Touch Screen, the computer and a wireless keyboard and mouse if needed.

Again, the actual problem with a touch screen would be their duration. The same thing is going to happen with the iPhones, after a year they will give you problems because the surface will loose sensitivity.

[hyperpasta]

Who says it has to be the display?
Why not have the touch surface be where the keyboard is on your laptop, so you could have a touchscreen QWERTY, then change to a touchscreen mixer or some other interface.

Sounds like a DS :)

[koobcamuk]

Note: Another thing that would work would be having the computer be facing up like a sheet of paper on a desk.

that would kill your neck!

Technology will progress - we won't use a mouse forever, but I wonder where will will go... :rolleyes:

[Mac Fly (film)]

Here's (http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=72599) a thread I started on AI a while back. Furthermore, the keyboard display could change to suit each application that's selected.

[phillipjfry]

Why does it have to be touch screen monitor? why not touch-enabled keyboard/mouse?
Maybe they can get rid of the annoying clicky click of the keyboard, with a flat pad on your table that is pressure/touch sensitive. Or a mighty mouse that is touch/pressure sensitive. Without moving parts, there is less of a chance to need replacement :)
no dirt or grime in the mouse "nipple"
same with keyboard and mouse :)

After reading above, I figured that I wasn't the only one thinking "non-monitor touchscreen"

[nagromme]

Given the speed benefits of tactile touch-typing, and the historical failure of newer and better non-QWERTY layouts to catch on with the mainstream, I don't think touch-based keyboards are the future.

I wouldn't say no to a multitouch "display trackpad" accompanying my laptop and desktop keyboards though :)

[Tirgaya]

This technology will replace your keyboard, mouse, monitor AND your desk.

Think of the consoles on Star Trek. You woun't be any more tired using this than you are now, because it will BE your keyboard and mouse.

Take a look at how its used in this demo:
Jeff Han Ted Talk (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/download/video/27/talk/65) (zipped mp4 file, plays in QT )

That, is a revolution in how you interact with your computer. Its just a few engineering questions: cost and reliability mostly. This thing has to last as long as a good monitor, and should be priced not much higher than a monitor keyboard, mouse and tablet. A 30" should be priced about $2400 if it uses LCD or LED technology, if it uses a rear projector like the Jeff Han demo unit then it should cost significantly less, no more than half.

[Tirgaya]

Given the speed benefits of tactile touch-typing, and the historical failure of newer and better non-QWERTY layouts to catch on with the mainstream, I don't think touch-based keyboards are the future.

I wouldn't say no to a multitouch "display trackpad" accompanying my laptop and desktop keyboards though :)

Touch typing eh? I expect that a virtual keyboard will be included.

Of course I also expect that people will stop interacting with their computers that way.

I suggest that people will use handwriting recognition technologies.

That's how I wrote this at any rate. I've had to work on my penmanship, I've always been a chicken scratch kind of guy, but it works very well.

[nagromme]

Don't get me wrong, it's very cool to THINK about using computers through touchscreens alone.

But a virtual keyboard does not permit touch typing, and writing by hand takes longer than a fast typer--not to mention, writing all day can be very damaging and painful, worse then typing.

[EagerDragon]

People have been painting on a canvas for years, reaching over with brushes in hand. Why they would not be able to paint on an electronic canvas with their fingers?

If you think about people sitting at a desk, reaching over to a screen that sits too high to confortably you your hands and fingers on, then you are absolutly correct. But ... if you stand instead is a lot more confortable to interact wit hte canvas. Also you can place your canvas flat on the desk or at an angle like a drafting board and again you are talking about a natural interface similar to what people been doing for years.

Placement makes a big difference when you use a human interface that uses your hands and fingers to directly interact with the objects in your canvas.

[EagerDragon]

Given the speed benefits of tactile touch-typing, and the historical failure of newer and better non-QWERTY layouts to catch on with the mainstream, I don't think touch-based keyboards are the future.

I wouldn't say no to a multitouch "display trackpad" accompanying my laptop and desktop keyboards though :)

You are thinking along the lines of typing documents and stuff. Think of other uses like in the demo of the interface, like painting, like retouching pictures, like film editing and music editing. Think of using gestures instead of keys.

Yes you can always use a keyboard when you need to type that document. But you dont need the keyboard to select the correct picture, rotate it, size it and place it at the correct location in the document.

[EagerDragon]

Actually a 30" Apple Cinema Screen.

It is very very nice and usefull.... when it works. I bought my screen a year ago and sent it to a company call "TrollTouch", they add touchscreen to anything, even powerbooks.

As I work in live shows I need to access to my clips very fast, ther is not even time to grab the mouse sometimes. Literally the control of my software in my finguertips.

The problem is that the screen stoped working and the people at Troll Touch just didn't reply any of my emails and they blocked my phone number.

I searched for the actual manofacturer and I got in touch with Touch Base systems in the UK. They told me they no longuer work with Troll Touch for the same reasons but they only create the software while Troll Touch create the hardware.

At the end, I ended up with a $5000 Apple Cinema Screen that doesn't work.

A friend of mine got two 20" iMacs as well from the same vendor and they still working just fine after a year even it seems like one of the touchscreen are loosing the touch capabilities.

Any way, here is a picture of my set up. The Touch Screen, the computer and a wireless keyboard and mouse if needed.

Again, the actual problem with a touch screen would be their duration. The same thing is going to happen with the iPhones, after a year they will give you problems because the surface will loose sensitivity.

Nice rig, sorry it is no longer working.

Some of what I read before suggest that some of this type of technology may not actualy needs for actual touch to occur. Also there was that article about the screen pixels acting a a camera, a camera that could potentialy be used to detect movement and that could be programmed to react to that movement, similar to some games we seen where a camera is used to monitor the user movement.

The technology may last longer if there is no direct contact with the surface.

[nagromme]

You are thinking along the lines of typing documents and stuff. Think of other uses like in the demo of the interface, like painting, like retouching pictures, like film editing and music editing. Think of using gestures instead of keys.

Yes you can always use a keyboard when you need to type that document. But you dont need the keyboard to select the correct picture, rotate it, size it and place it at the correct location in the document.

Lifting your hands away from your work surface, up to the screen, would be very functional for certain tasks--but also tiring. I don't see it ever catching on for long hours of work, just for specific niche uses (where it already is in use).

[Thanatoast]

Don't get me wrong, it's very cool to THINK about using computers through touchscreens alone.

But a virtual keyboard does not permit touch typing, and writing by hand takes longer than a fast typer--not to mention, writing all day can be very damaging and painful, worse then typing.
They could include an Gregg's Shorthand course in Leopard :)

Of course, then children would have to start wearing knickerbockers and movie tickets would cost a nickel, so maybe not. :p

[Analog Kid]

Interesting how the article is about Synaptics saying not to expect full size multi-touch displays and this whole thread is talking about full size multi-touch displays...
Note: Another thing that would work would be having the computer be facing up like a sheet of paper on a desk.
That's how I would do it-- flush with the desk, or 5 or 10 degree incline. the only reason desktop displays are mounted vertically now is because they evolved from TVs and CRTs required depth for the electron gun.
The problem is that the screen stoped working and the people at Troll Touch just didn't reply any of my emails and they blocked my phone number.


Wow, I can't believe they actually blocked your number-- I think that's a new low in customer service. You could, of course, post their customer service number here and we could all call them requesting that they service your display...

Touch typing eh? I expect that a virtual keyboard will be included.

Of course I also expect that people will stop interacting with their computers that way.

I suggest that people will use handwriting recognition technologies.

I type so very much faster than I write... I think handwriting is better than little tiny PDA keyboards (if it's accurate enough), and I think things like Inkwell are great if you've already got the stylus in your hands, but I ain't going to be using it to post to forums any time soon...

[NOV]

I think the paradigm shift is that you will no longer operate your computer through one screen per se.
Your computer environment may consist of more than one interface with dedicated screens driven by the OS and software.

An example: in a music studio you may operate some tasks in Logic Audio through the keyboard/ mouse and interact by screen. The mixer/ recorder may be another device which is operated through a touch screen.

[mrthieme]

You are thinking along the lines of typing documents and stuff. Think of other uses like in the demo of the interface, like painting, like retouching pictures, like film editing and music editing. Think of using gestures instead of keys.

Yes you can always use a keyboard when you need to type that document. But you dont need the keyboard to select the correct picture, rotate it, size it and place it at the correct location in the document.

This is exactly how I envision it, not a replacement for a keyboard with desktops, but an additional input choice for apps that work well with it.

I would expect to see it in a tablet or laptop first, if ever.

Of coarse, as many have noted, holding your arms out for an extended period on a desktop would be horrible, so a drafting table position is needed. Sorry to those who have seen this before, but I'm including a basic picture of my idea.

[PCMacUser]

If you think about people sitting at a desk, reaching over to a screen that sits too high to confortably you your hands and fingers on, then you are absolutly correct. But ... if you stand instead is a lot more confortable to interact wit hte canvas.

Sorry, but I feel a moral obligation to let you know that it is COMFORTABLE, not confortable. Note, the 'm'. :)

[jettredmont]

People have been painting on a canvas for years, reaching over with brushes in hand. Why they would not be able to paint on an electronic canvas with their fingers?

If you think about people sitting at a desk, reaching over to a screen that sits too high to confortably you your hands and fingers on, then you are absolutly correct. But ... if you stand instead is a lot more confortable to interact wit hte canvas. Also you can place your canvas flat on the desk or at an angle like a drafting board and again you are talking about a natural interface similar to what people been doing for years.

Placement makes a big difference when you use a human interface that uses your hands and fingers to directly interact with the objects in your canvas.

The problem is, people generally have not been painting on their canvases for 10-12 hours per day, seven days per week.

Ergonomically, this type of device requires a different usage pattern. It can work great for short bursts of enhanced expressivity, but would not work so great for writing a novel.

[jettredmont]

Synaptics first gained recognition for supplying the click-wheels for Apple's earlier iPods.


Sorry, can't just let that pass.

Synaptics has been around a lot longer than the iPod. All the best notebook trackpads came from Synaptics, and they generally had features (side scrolling areas, corners acting as buttons, etc) which other trackpads couldn't mimic.

Oh, and if you wanted the absolute best trackpad experience, you'd download Synaptic's own trackpad drivers, which would pop up a Synaptics flash screen on Windows startup and put a little icon in the system tray.

How did they "first gain recognition" for the click-wheels? I mean, ask any decent geek in 1998 what trackpad their Dell used and they could tell you Synaptics; ask any iPod user today what trackpad their iPod uses and they'll give you a blank stare.

Just a nit ... :)

[roland.g]

Touch screen for the dock and maybe menu bar makes more sense. While extending the multi-touch of the iPhone seems an inevitable progression for desktops, I agree it's not practical to raise your hands to the screen that much.

[GodBless]

The multi-touch screen will obviously be the dominate input device in the future. The mouse and keyboard will also be used as standard input devices and will have their advantages when it comes to certain uses but the touch screen will be used the most.

There will be two major problems however:
1. If the screen is mounted on a vertical surface then the arms will be strained after hours of work.
2. If the screen is flat on a table then the neck will be strained after hours of work.

When one problem is solved then the other remains--therefore a balance seems like the best solution. With that said here is my design:
http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=72428&d=1176645577
http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=72431&d=1176645705

Another idea that I received from a MacRumors member is putting a hinge on it for the screen to tilt up when wanted. The result with my design would be something this (from the side--without the ports):
http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73360&d=1177833847

The screen could magnetically attach to and detach from the wedge, easily, whenever the user desired to switch the screen's position.

My design would probably work even better if I flattened the front to make room for a keyboard so that the hands could work at a continuous angle between the multi-touch screen and the keyboard.

[Shotglass]

Nice to see you improved your design, GodBless, but I still think it's too thick.

[GodBless]

Nice to see you improved your design, GodBless, but I still think it's too thick.Making it thinner would cause neck strain (as I mentioned in my previous post) since it would change the angle of the screen's resting position to a more flat position in the multi-touch position (i.e. magnetized to the wedge). Therefore changing it to the way that you suggested would be a step backwards (and would make an inferior design).

Also don't you see the benefit of the iMac having full-sized computer parts? Having the option to add and remove standard sized internal hardware components as part of the future iMac models would be a major benefit for many people.

[psychofreak]

Making it thinner would cause neck strain

But right now its fugly, and Apple don't do fugly.

Remember how easily adjusted the iMac G4's screen was? Yours is much more complicated...

Sorry but I just don't like it...

[GodBless]

Remember how easily adjusted the iMac G4's screen was? Yours is much more complicated...Yeah, my design is as complicated as a laptop's screen--apparently you think that's complicated--I don't. ;)

[RRK]

There will be two major problems however:


Then there is problem #3, UGLY.

Im gonna call it zomb"iMac".
It wont die and its eating my brains out.

[Mord]

I see a major problem with all this touch screen malarkey, I can't be arsed to wave my hands about like an idiot to work my computer it's a right pain in the arse and most of the time the screen will be obscured by your arms, it's just plain slow and inconvenient.

sure if one day such tech becomes cheap and if it's just a thin clear film then why not add it as an option so that you can just draw on any computer screen if you so wish but it's not replacing the keyboard and mouse.

if it did replace the keyboard and mouse it wouldn't be a feking wedge.

[chevitron]

Although undoubtfully we will see in the future some touch display capabilities, I believe that the multi-touch technology will replace the mouse (as a physical device). Think of the mouse pad as a new device (a larger trackpad) and using our fingers over the surface for pinching, rotating, double-tapping, etc.

On the other hand, I try to remember that Steve Jobs mentioned last year (when introducing Leopard and creating that Super Secret Apple Rumors podcast on the stage) that "the next iPod will be huge, with a 10" screen" or something like that. Yes, I know it was a joke, but it could make sense: large screen/small form-factor, no keyboard, larger storage capacityand tablet mac functionality...

[Thanatoast]

Software design will have to improve by an order of magnitude before a touchscreen computer becomes a viable reailty. Right now everything is geared toward use of a mouse pointer. Programs are built with it in mind. New software will have to change it's UI to compensate for use of fingers instead.

And why would we want a touch mousepad? Might as well have a mouse at that point. The screen is where the action is.

[RRK]

And why would we want a touch mousepad? Might as well have a mouse at that point. The screen is where the action is.

The problem is you are thinking of multi-touch as touch-screen. Gestures is the difference, and maybe the mouse pad would also be a monitor.

[mrxak]

People have been painting on a canvas for years, reaching over with brushes in hand. Why they would not be able to paint on an electronic canvas with their fingers?

If you think about people sitting at a desk, reaching over to a screen that sits too high to confortably you your hands and fingers on, then you are absolutly correct. But ... if you stand instead is a lot more confortable to interact wit hte canvas. Also you can place your canvas flat on the desk or at an angle like a drafting board and again you are talking about a natural interface similar to what people been doing for years.

Placement makes a big difference when you use a human interface that uses your hands and fingers to directly interact with the objects in your canvas.

You made me think of something really cool. How about a multi-touch monitor that's so sensitive that it can pick up and track every single hair on a brush? I think the Adobe crowd might get some drool on...

[RRK]

You made me think of something really cool. How about a multi-touch monitor that's so sensitive that it can pick up and track every single hair on a brush? I think the Adobe crowd might get some drool on...

That would be awesome but doesn't Apple's technology have something to do with triangulating the position of your fingers based on disturbances in the electro magnetic field or something like that. Maybe I'm wrong but after swinging a hammer all day, typing "disturbances in the electro magnetic field" made me feel smart again. :cool:

[twoodcc]

cool idea....but i doubt it will be here anytime soon

[brianus]

But right now its fugly, and Apple don't do fugly.

Remember how easily adjusted the iMac G4's screen was? Yours is much more complicated...

Sorry but I just don't like it...

I was never fond of the incredibly goofy-looking iMac G4, but mrthieme's design, using a similar form factor but updated aesthetics, looks like a much better solution to the problem of having both traditional desktop and touchscreen in the same design than that 'wedge' thing.

[Thanatoast]

Um, it occurs to me, amongst all the talk of touchscreens and what they're good.not good for - it seems we've all assumed the death of the keyboard and mouse. Why not keep them and only use the touchscreen when appropriate?

Sorry, just seemed like that was left out...

[GodBless]

Um, it occurs to me, amongst all the talk of touchscreens and what they're good.not good for - it seems we've all assumed the death of the keyboard and mouse. Why not keep them and only use the touchscreen when appropriate?

Sorry, just seemed like that was left out...Yeah I mentioned that previously in this thread (read post #38 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=3594553#post3594553)) but you are right that people don't seem to realize that the keyboard and the mouse will be used along with the multi-touch screen. When the mouse was introduced it didn't mean that the keyboard would be replaced--just as the keyboard and the mouse are used together today, the keyboard, the mouse and the multi-touch screen will be used together tomorrow.

[kontheur]

:rolleyes: once again...
http://forum.macosx.nl/album_pic.php?pic_id=17930

[brianus]

:rolleyes: once again...
http://forum.macosx.nl/album_pic.php?pic_id=17930

Why/how is the screen suspended in air above the base? I don't like the look of the bezel anyway. It looks really generic and bland. One nice thing about the "chin" in the current iMac is that immediately removes all doubt as to its identity -- it's an iconic Mac. From afar, were it not for the apparent dazzling anti-gravity effects, this design on the other hand could mistaken for a generic PC monitor that just has a white bezel. Blegh.

Yeah I mentioned that previously in this thread (read post #38) but you are right that people don't seem to realize that the keyboard and the mouse will be used along with the multi-touch screen. When the mouse was introduced it didn't mean that the keyboard would be replaced--just as the keyboard and the mouse are used together today, the keyboard, the mouse and the multi-touch screen will be used together tomorrow.

Exactly. You don't use the keyboard for everything, or the mouse for everything, nor will you use a touchscreen for everything. It's just another input method, available for those apps/circumstances where it's appropriate or optimal. Noone complains about built in iSight or audio in, but those are input methods as well, so why not add touch?