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funkywhat2
Jun 20, 2003, 09:19 PM
On Tuesday, a large portion on my graduating class (not me) too the New York State Math A Regents exam. According to Newsday (www.newsday.com) 85% of the people, on Long Island, who took it FAILED. What the ****? Is it the test, or the teachers? There is no excuse for 85% of a group of tested students to fail a standardized test. In my school four people passed.

Thankfully, I took the test last year. I had to take the Math B exam this year. In fact, I took it today.

Link: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-liexam203339164jun20,0,5812053.story?coll=ny-linews-headlines

King Cobra
Jun 20, 2003, 09:22 PM
That is a disgrace. I saw the report on NBC around 17:10 EST.

That's worse than the basic standards tests score in the beginning of "Lean On Me".

Blame it on the teachers. You would think to blame the students, because they aren't trying. But "they" very rarely are responsible for 85% of the students failing. That's much too large of a percentile.

Blame the lack of proper planning and preperation on the teachers.

(BTW: Current Events news.)

Sun Baked
Jun 20, 2003, 09:29 PM
Sort of sad when they went from teaching students how to learn, to just stuffing infomation into their heads so they can pass a test.

The students should have had steady progress as the tools available to teach the students improved.

Sort of a strange problem...

patrick0brien
Jun 20, 2003, 09:36 PM
-funkywhat2

The problem with standardized tests is that the people they are designed to test - aren't standard.

Who is?

funkywhat2
Jun 20, 2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra


(BTW: Current Events news.)

Sorry. I'm lazy and pissed off tonight. I'll try harder next time. :D

FredAkbar
Jun 20, 2003, 10:16 PM
The problem at my school when we took standardized tests earlier this year was that so many kids knew that the test results wouldn't directly on their personal records, and that's all they cared about. It amazes me how nobody seemed to understand that not only to these tests help or hurt the school (funding), they also really do affect the individual students, since a college or university looks at the test scores for the high school that an applying student attended.

So, that resulted in half the kids just randomly filling in bubbles.

Well okay, that's not fair...some of the kids actually did something productive like fill in specific bubbles to make smiley faces and things on the answer sheet. :rolleyes:

--Fred

scem0
Jun 20, 2003, 10:25 PM
I love standardized tests. You get out of class (usually) to take them, they are ez (some would disagree), and most are un-timed so you can just sit there acting like your working and don't have to go to class.

Well, that's just my opinion, being the rebel I am. :rolleyes: :D

http://www.my-smileys.de/signs/cdcb35acd7902df97d2eb5e6c320263b.png

patrick0brien
Jun 20, 2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by scem0
I love standardized tests. You get out of class (usually) to take them, they are ez (some would disagree), and most are un-timed...

-scem0

Don't forget that the SAT, ACT, GMAT, MCAT and LSAT are standardized tests as well. :D

I don't know a soul who'd call the LSAT easy.

Not smacking, just trying to show that it doesn't end.

Hmm. I suppose that could be depressing. Sorry, not my intent.

jelloshotsrule
Jun 21, 2003, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by patrick0brien
I don't know a soul who'd call the LSAT easy.


my girlfriend just took em... she's been fairly miserable studying for them for months, and even after, worrying about how she did... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Thanatoast
Jun 21, 2003, 02:59 AM
I *would* blame the students. I would also blame the culture we have created that puts money and power above knowledge, without realizing that knowledge leads to money and power. If the teachers suck, so what? Then it's no longer the student's responsibility to be educated? "The steering on my car sucks, therefore I don't have to stay on my side of the road." I don't buy it. Having good teachers is a great way to improve education, but like I said, people follow money in this culture, and the money doesn't flow toward teachers. It flows towards atheletes and corporate bigwigs. Not only that, the "the system is broke" philosophy is self-fullfilling. "My school sucks, I can't learn anything there, so why should I try." A messed up value system and rampant self-pity has led to our current situation, and unless something changes it's gonna be our undoing.

Sorry, kinda ranted there.

King Cobra
Jun 21, 2003, 09:12 AM
Thanatoast, I'm not disagreeing with your opinion, but if students were to be learning on their own whtout a system, then all educational facilities and taching establishments would serve as a large acrage for office and desk space.

The purpose of going to an elementary, secondary, a college or a university is to help you learn. Everyone can learn by themselves.

But now, take away the system of education, and let students learn by themselves. Then there would be no SATs, no NMQSTs, no AP tests, no SAT IIs, and no HSPAs. There would be no challenges for children, except for the challenges they make for themselves.

I agree that a student can learn anything on his own, but I also agree that as long as there are educational foundations with students atenting, there will be the job of the faculty and staff of giving assistance to the students.

question fear
Jun 21, 2003, 10:24 AM
the problem with standardized tests, as I believe has already been mentioned, is that there is no good way to truly standardize how people learn, and thus how they take tests.
Its terrible that all those kids faile,d but it is definitely to blame on the part of the teachers.
Think about it this way:
You have schoolwide tests. like regents, Massachusetts MCAS, NJ HSPT
You have tests you take to get into college: SAT, ACT, possibly some APs
And then you have tests for when you are going on to more learning: MCAT, GRE, LSAT, etc.
Teachers are more responsible for teaching the highschoolwide tests, as those are designed for EVERY student in mind. not just for a specific class or type of student. Even a test designed per level the student is learning at (honors, level 1, etc) has to apply to a fairly low common denominator. So teacher should be able to teach their kids along those lines.
SAT, etc have been under fire for a while for only applying to white middle class kids who know what the references are to. If you grow up in the inner city, you dont necessarily know much about cricket.
In this case, its a societal error, and something bigger than just the education system.
However, I think graduate level admission tests are a different category altogether, as they expect you've recieved a bachelor's or are about to, and therefore have a baseline education fro your liberal arts/sciency 4 yrs.
SO its most disgraceful for those teachers, unless some other statistical fluke arises like "90% of those students cut class"
my .02
--carly

iJon
Jun 21, 2003, 11:02 AM
yeah i took the act not too long ago and i ********* up extremly. luckily i can take it again and i will. i can do one the test, i just cant work fast enough, but i have to just deal with it because thats the way they are. i had very few friends who didnt have to guess at the end.

iJon

MrMacMan
Jun 21, 2003, 11:41 AM
You know what?

**** that.

You know why, because I took that test.

Yes, I did, and most of my friends, heck it even mentions my school there, Great Neck South.

It was hard, but I doubt 50% failed, that is total BS.

King Cobra, take the test, THEN Blame it on me, the student.

Take my math classes, my teachers, my other final the same day as this regency and you get 100%.

Please, do it.

(yes I had 2 tests, a social final and this regency)

BTW, this was 'after' I finished school.
Last, last thursday was my 'last day' but then you have to come in for all of this BS!

I would ALMOST agree with scem0, except I don't even miss classes!

[/FLAME ON]

iJon
Jun 21, 2003, 12:01 PM
i really wouldnt know who to blame it on. i know i blame myself for many things just because i dont try in school as hard as i can. and i know most of my friends dont either. i know i could have straight a's i studied more, im just not interested in school, i never do homework because i have so many blowoff classes and i can do them during the day. i sleep in class because i have many blowoff classes. school doesnt interest me, but i keep my grades up and stay on honor roll so no ones on my back about it. its just the things im interested in arent taught in school. i remember taking a multimedia class and we were editing video on a 233 pentium 2 and recording from a vcr video camera. i was like ******* this and dropped out of the class because i knew that i knew more than the teacher. computers and business are what im strong at, and i have yet to find a teacher to teach me something new and i actually get interested about in those fields. from my computer background with my parents i just gotta learn everything on my own. but when it comes to tests like that, i usually go with students, based on how i act and my friends. but i do agree, some teachers flat out dont teach, or they are really smart and know their stuff, they just dont know how to get into a language that affects the students. like my physics teacher, he was probably the smartest man i met, but he sucked at teaching and because of that i never learned physics that well, luckily the way he grades i was able to pull of an A every quarter.

iJon

pseudobrit
Jun 21, 2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra
Blame it on the teachers. You would think to blame the students, because they aren't trying. But "they" very rarely are responsible for 85% of the students failing. That's much too large of a percentile.

Blame the lack of proper planning and preperation on the teachers.

Ha! You blame the teachers? For what?

Trying to practice their craft with little or no funding, outdated texts, worthless equipment, NO prep time and special needs kids mixed with their regular classes?

Blame it on the school's board if you want to blame it on anyone. Teachers are professionals. You wouldn't crap on a doctor if 85% of his patients were overweight, would you? A defense attorney if 85% of his cliental is guilty?

patrick0brien
Jun 21, 2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit
Trying to practice their craft with little or no funding, outdated texts, worthless equipment...

-pseudobrit

Y'know, you bring up an interesting point. Schools districts are having to do more with less, and these "educators" (ok, your right, I'm not being fair - it's the school board) are switching to PC's that, on the surface, are a cheap purchase, but don't consider the triple terrors of 1. the expense of IT suppport folks, 2. the inevitable downtime as the registries haystack over time, then 3. have to replace the machines in another two years.

A bad problem who's "solution" only makes worse.

King Cobra
Jun 21, 2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by pseudobrit

Originally posted by King Cobra
Blame it on the teachers. You would think to blame the students, because they aren't trying. But "they" very rarely are responsible for 85% of the students failing. That's much too large of a percentile.

Blame the lack of proper planning and preperation on the teachers.

Ha! You blame the teachers? For what?

That question has already been answered.

>Trying to practice their craft with little or no funding, outdated texts, worthless equipment, NO prep time and special needs kids mixed with their regular classes? (pseudobrit)

Teachers can use their own, personal tools and visuals, as well as their "craft", as you call it, because that is their job. No matter what equipment is available, a teacher has a job to do.

Teachers do have prep time. They spend too much time on making tests and eating lunch.

If outdated texts are available, then teachers will simply rely on their knowledge, not the knowledge of a book. The same with equipment.

MarksEvilTwin
Jun 21, 2003, 11:05 PM
Removed

Freg3000
Jun 21, 2003, 11:50 PM
This math A stuff is crap too. In New York, the math curriculum had been divided in to 3 courses, Math Course I, II, and III. Each course culminated with a Regents, the standardized test at the end of the year. However, last year they changed this into Math A and B, which have awkward lengths, like 1.5 years. Instead of having the final at the end of the year, Math B has the regents after the winter break of your second year in Math B. Crazy! Math Course I, II, and III were very EASY-Math A is screwing everyone up.

It is not the students' nor the teachers' fault. 85% of the people failing is Albany's fault for designing such a horrible test.

Math took a huge step backwards in New York. :(

MrMacMan
Jun 22, 2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by King Cobra
Ha! You blame the teachers? For what?

That question has already been answered.

>Trying to practice their craft with little or no funding, outdated texts, worthless equipment, NO prep time and special needs kids mixed with their regular classes? (pseudobrit)

Teachers can use their own, personal tools and visuals, as well as their "craft", as you call it, because that is their job. No matter what equipment is available, a teacher has a job to do.

Teachers do have prep time. They spend too much time on making tests and eating lunch.

If outdated texts are available, then teachers will simply rely on their knowledge, not the knowledge of a book. The same with equipment. [/QUOTE]

I would flame you, but I can't find the time.

Wait, I found it, I have cleared my schedule, just for you.

My mom and dad are teachers, and I am a student in NY state.

Teachers can use their own, personal tools and visuals...

Yes, they are expected out of their poor ass salary to do this and they do, but are they expected to pay for new textbooks?

No matter what equipment is available, a teacher has a job to do.

Yes, thats right lets sacrifice my house, hm... maybe I should sell my computer, and all of my worldly possessions so my mom can get some new equipment to teach her class. NO!

Teachers do have prep time. They spend too much time on making tests and eating lunch.

Yes, I'm sorry, we they suppose to prepare classes without tests and then grading them? What do you want Good test scores or taking prep periods away?

If outdated texts are available, then teachers will simply rely on their knowledge, not the knowledge of a book. The same with equipment.
Yes, with all of their obviously free time they are supposto learn new material to teach to their students!

Lets see also in their free time:
Make lesson plans.
Have extra help sessions for students who are lacking.

Well I hope I ranted enough for today.

Teachers get no respect anyway.

Backtothemac
Jun 22, 2003, 01:38 PM
How about blaming the teachers unions. They are the ones that set the class structures. Teachers are no longer allowed to inovate in the way they teach. They are drones of one of the largest political PAC's in the country. The teachers union. Then blame has to go on State Governments for not funding their schools effectively so the kids will have what they need to learn. Then blame goes on the Parent. Yea, thats right the parent. They are the ones that are responsible for the kids learning, and many don't do their friggin jobs anymore. Families are more concered with two incomes, and the quiet time when they come home, so the kids live on computers and X-Box, instead of their books.

trebblekicked
Jun 22, 2003, 01:49 PM
let's blame everyone. students for not trying, teachers for not caring, and school boards and politicians for not providing. that'll solve the dumb american kid problem ;):rolleyes:

no one is motivated enough (en mass) to effect positive change in our current education system. if you as an individual do your thing: good for you. you will breed individual results, and that's the best we can hope for until $100 bills fall from the sky.


<EDIT> B2TM- i forgot to blame the parent, too. yr right about that...

Backtothemac
Jun 22, 2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by trebblekicked
let's blame everyone. students for not trying, teachers for not caring, and school boards and politicians for not providing. that'll solve the dumb american kid problem ;):rolleyes:

no one is motivated enough (en mass) to effect positive change in our current education system. if you as an individual do your thing: good for you. you will breed individual results, and that's the best we can hope for until $100 bills fall from the sky.


<EDIT> B2TM- i forgot to blame the parent, too. yr right about that...

I agree, but school has always been about individual results. You cannot expect all kids to excel to the same level. But you have to expect Parents to do their part, and the fact is that they don't anymore.

King Cobra
Jun 22, 2003, 02:05 PM
>I would flame you [Andrej], but I can't find the time.

>Wait, I found it, I have cleared my schedule, just for you. (MrMacman)

So you cleared your schedule, just so you can flame me? How considerate and immature of you.

>My mom and dad are teachers, and I am a student in NY state.

Your parents may not be the group of teachers I previously discussed, in which 85% of the students failed the tests. But I would need confirmation. So I will let your statement stand by itself.

>Yes, they are expected out of their poor ass salary to do this and they do, but are they expected to pay for new textbooks?

If that is their job, then yes. Ask your parents if they are "expected to pay for new textbooks".

>No matter what equipment is available, a teacher has a job to do. (Andrej)

>Yes, thats right lets sacrifice my house, hm... maybe I should sell my computer, and all of my worldly possessions so my mom can get some new equipment to teach her class. NO! (MrMacman)

I'm not saying give up your "worldly possessions" to teach the students or get new equipment. I was referring to the job of a teacher, which, by defenition, is to educate someone. You can't educate someone if you give up your worldly possessions. Otherwise what would you have to teach them with?

Teaching is a dedicated responsibility for others trying to learn. If a large portion of students fail a test, then the students aren't learning. Or perhaps they are not learning correctly. The teacher, therefore, does not have a dedicated responsibility towards educating the students.

Teachers may have lesson plans that have been passed on to them so they can use them to teach the students, but the teacher doesn't teach lesson plans. He/She is a teacher for educating the students through something that is more intelligent than lesson plans. If teachers don't have that intelligence, then they will not do their jobs correctly.

>Teachers do have prep time. They spend too much time on making tests and eating lunch. (Andrej)

>Yes, I'm sorry, we they suppose to prepare classes without tests and then grading them? What do you want Good test scores or taking prep periods away? (MrMacman)

Teaching made easy: Make effective tests that are easy to grade and easy to make.

I have noticed from my experience that not all teachers are willing to do that. Multiple choice is tough because teachers have to spend a lot of time on each question trying to decide which wrong answers students will most often choose. Essays and open ended questions take a long time to grade if students have sloppy handwriting or illegible print.

If teachers can find a faster way of making and grading tests, then they will be more effective. And when teachers take the time to think out their plans, then they will have a lot of preparation for when it is time to teach. This extra prep. will also aid in designing better and faster tests.

>If outdated texts are available, then teachers will simply rely on their knowledge, not the knowledge of a book. The same with equipment. (Andrej)

>Yes, with all of their obviously free time they are supposto learn new material to teach to their students! (MrMacman)

>Lets see also in their free time:
>Make lesson plans.
>Have extra help sessions for students who are lacking.

Here is a perfect example of what happens going into a debate without a lack of prior preparation and a post-thought process.

MrMacman, my point above was discussing the reliability of teachers on textbooks. If the teacher is not going to use an outdated textbook for whatever reason it is, then he/she will rely on the knowledge he/she learned before becoming a teacher. This is better knowledge, as well as knowledge from the college he/she attended, compared to the textbook.

Your point, MrMacman, was a noticible digression from mine. Nevertheless, I will debate your intended point as well.

The teachers do have a job of fulfilling a students education with their lesson plans and extra help sessions. But teachers do not have to learn new material to educate their students. Professional teachers have to go to college before they can teach students. Therefore, your line "they are supposto learn new material to teach to their students" is incorrect.

>Well I hope I ranted enough for today.

I agree. At any particular day anyone reads that line, today will be the same day the person is reading the line.

>Teachers get no respect anyway.

Are you referring to your parents? :)

G5orbust
Jun 22, 2003, 02:23 PM
well, Im not going to venture into that fray, but I will tell you what I know, as a student, not as a son of a teacher or anything of the sort.

Schools need money. It is as simple as that. Teachers cannot do their jobs properly if they do not have the supplies to do it.

I do not attend a public school, though, so I cannot offer a first hand account of all the cut corners and such, but I do know that there is a problem. California, if you all didn't know, has the worst budget crisis of any state in the Union, and is digging deeper and deeper into education to satisfy the other, money hungry public projects. We're talking about tens of billions of dollars in deficit and it is growing. Teachers are being given the pink slip and classes are getting larger and larger. It is very easy for a struggling kid to fall and never recover because the needed help is not there.

So, if it is one point I make from this post, it is that teachers need money to do their jobs. Without the money, teachers cannot give their students 100%. Aging textbooks, crowded classes and deteriorating facilities also factor into this. How can we, as Americans (sorry to the Europeans and others who are participating in this, but I do not know your education system and therefore cannot include it) expect to gain any respect in the international community if we are educating the next generation poorly enough that a large percentage (not just like 10%, but like 40-50%) seniors in highschool that were tested failed a national literacy exam. I do not blame the teachers. No no, they cannot be blamed. I blame the bureucrats who think that kids can learn on their own and that teachers can magically find supplies for their classes.


Note: I exclude bad teachers from my "I do not blame the teachers" line. Teachers who do not try or do not care get zero sympathy from me and should be fired from their jobs.

MrMacMan
Jun 22, 2003, 04:21 PM
So you cleared your schedule, just so you can flame me? How considerate and immature of you.


Why Thank you!
I hope you will continue to diss me in the future, my point is because you have such a different view then mine I will Gladly clear my schedule to debate any-day.

Your parents may not be the group of teachers I previously discussed, in which 85% of the students failed the tests. But I would need confirmation. So I will let your statement stand by itself.

Yes, yes they are. They work in New York city, my mom in Bayside and my dad in Manhattan.
If that is their job, then yes. Ask your parents if they are "expected to pay for new textbooks".
There is a difference bewteen expected and what a person needs to do to get the job done.
With the limited money goint into public schools should they be forced to pay for note books, pencil's, and pens?
Does their job say, 'out of your petty salary pay for everything you need to teach' no, it doesn't, but the difference comes when you NEED the materials to teach students, this is where your part of the debate falls.
Because the schools are given little money for supplies, the teachers are forced to pay for it with little money they are paid. WITHOUT Supplies a teachers job is hard, maybe even impossible, when NYC can't pay for Photo Copy's for Handouts and your students need Paper since you couldn't make handouts, you have a very big problem.

I'm not saying give up your "worldly possessions" to teach the students or get new equipment. I was referring to the job of a teacher, which, by defenition, is to educate someone. You can't educate someone if you give up your worldly possessions. Otherwise what would you have to teach them with?

Teaching is a dedicated responsibility for others trying to learn. If a large portion of students fail a test, then the students aren't learning. Or perhaps they are not learning correctly. The teacher, therefore, does not have a dedicated responsibility towards educating the students.
I agree mostly with what you said in paragraph one, but it seems to conflict with earlier statements. You want to make sure the students have things to work with, but you want to sacrifices to be made...

>> If a large portion of students fail a test, then the students aren't learning.

Agreed, but maybe, instead of the teachers or students fault it is the people making the test? How about you blame it (a little) on the peolple who haven't been to a class in 20 years who seems to be making these test way to hard.

Teachers may have lesson plans that have been passed on to them so they can use them to teach the students, but the teacher doesn't teach lesson plans. He/She is a teacher for educating the students through something that is more intelligent than lesson plans. If teachers don't have that intelligence, then they will not do their jobs correctly.
I'm not sure where you specifically live, but lesson plans are key if a supervisor is to make sure if you are doing your job properly. In NY S the teachers are forced into a system, a system where you teach the test, not what you want to teach, or what is intresting, but what will be on the regency, or final. Intelligence is key but because of the lack of pay in NY City there are few to many teachers and unfortunately teachers are being hired, even if they have less the needed intelligence.
Teaching made easy: Make effective tests that are easy to grade and easy to make.
In a perfect word, everything should be mutiple choice, or a scantron, but the State make sure that Essays are on the Finals and regency so that itself is not easy.
I have noticed from my experience that not all teachers are willing to do that. Multiple choice is tough because teachers have to spend a lot of time on each question trying to decide which wrong answers students will most often choose. Essays and open ended questions take a long time to grade if students have sloppy handwriting or illegible print.
Wait, so if Mutiple Choice OR essya is not the correct way to make a test, what is since this is your view.
If teachers can find a faster way of making and grading tests, then they will be more effective. And when teachers take the time to think out their plans, then they will have a lot of preparation for when it is time to teach. This extra prep. will also aid in designing better and faster tests.
Yes, in the hours they have free they will be able to do this, again if we lived in a perfect world this would, could and should happen, but it doesn't.
Here is a perfect example of what happens going into a debate without a lack of prior preparation and a post-thought process.
That was very rude. I will not comment any further on your disrespectful comments.
MrMacman, my point above was discussing the reliability of teachers on textbooks. If the teacher is not going to use an outdated textbook for whatever reason it is, then he/she will rely on the knowledge he/she learned before becoming a teacher. This is better knowledge, as well as knowledge from the college he/she attended, compared to the textbook.
Okay, here I go, the teacher, Is Forced To Use These Textbooks.
Because the finals, regency use the information directly from the textbooks. Of coarse the teacher will try to pull in their own knowledge and shouldn't be forced to stick to the book. Hopefully the textbook is not outdated like many are. The best case senerio is that the person has a textbook that was made after the cold war ended, though again, this happens infrequently.
Your point, MrMacman, was a noticible digression from mine. Nevertheless, I will debate your intended point as well.
Can I control you? No, I cannot, thereforce you can draw any and all conclusions from what I say. Even if they are incorrect.
The teachers do have a job of fulfilling a students education with their lesson plans and extra help sessions.
I agree, so far.
But teachers do not have to learn new material to educate their students.
No new material? Does events not occur everyday? New things happen every second of the day. How do you teach wihtout being informed?
Example: The Tonkin Gulf.
Durind the 70's and 80's people thought we were attacked and hence we went to war, what we know now, is that the attack was a fake and one big lie. Do not believe me? Here you go. (http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940727.html)
Teacher have a job to keep informed and to know there stuff!
I agree. At any particular day anyone reads that line, today will be the same day the person is reading the line.
Um, technically that statement made grammatical sense, in reality, it did not.
'If person A reads line A, Therefore person A has read line A.'
Are you referring to your parents?
No, I'm referring to anyone who has taught students and is or was a teacher.

If you are intrested, my mom has been stabbed by a student, twice. That wasn't very respectable was it?

It seems like where you live, teachers have small class sizes, new textbooks, teaching supplies and can make up their own idea of what students are supposto learn, you must be a very lucky person if this is the case, because in NY, teachers are forced to teach in a silly set of guidelines are stuctured so that no innovation can be brought in to help students learn.

On a side note, there was a small teachers party at my house and they all said that you being overly critical of them. And all wondered where you lived so they can all go there to teach.

(You have sufficed by bi-weekly requirement of debate for the next month with all of his being said.)

edit: I Totally agree with G5orbust. Without money you can't expect to teach well, like you are King Cobra/Andrej

pseudobrit
Jun 22, 2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra
[snip...more teacher bashing...]

Dude, you're just graduating high school. No wonder you hate teachers.

You have no idea what goes on in teaching and how involved they are.

How about blaming the teachers unions. They are the ones that set the class structures. Teachers are no longer allowed to inovate in the way they teach. They are drones of one of the largest political PAC's in the country. The teachers union.

The unions protect teachers from exploitation as best they can. Teachers are professionals who require more continuing education than nearly any other profession. They're as scrutinized and held more accountable than politicians. They work hard and they care. They deserve to be compensated for their sacrifices. My mother works 70-80 hours a week. Without the union putting their foot down on some silly things, teachers would end up mopping floors until 6PM as a requirement in addition to the hellish schedule they're already compelled to keep.

King Cobra
Jun 22, 2003, 06:33 PM
>I hope you will continue to diss me in the future, my point is because you have such a different view then mine I will Gladly clear my schedule to debate any-day. (MrMacman)

You mean "debate [you] any-day".

>There is a difference bewteen expected and what a person needs to do to get the job done.
With the limited money goint into public schools should they be forced to pay for note books, pencil's, and pens?

Perhaps not. But there is no rule in a teacher's contract saying "You cannot leave the job of teaching if you cannot pay for your supplies."

If teachers don't need better paying, or if they already have enough money to do this out of will, they will.

I understand that a teacher can only go so far with the availability of equipment and supplies, but the staff/administration isn't teaching the students. The teachers are.

>Does their job say, 'out of your petty salary pay for everything you need to teach' no, it doesn't, but the difference comes when you NEED the materials to teach students, this is where your part of the debate falls.

If certain supplies are needed, then it is a big factor on education. If this is your intended point, MrMacman, you were not clear on this when you set aside time on your schedule for debating me, then proceeded to debate me.

I'm glad you cleared this up for the both of us.

>If a large portion of students fail a test, then the students aren't learning. (Andrej)

>Agreed, but maybe, instead of the teachers or students fault it is the people making the test? How about you blame it (a little) on the peolple who haven't been to a class in 20 years who seems to be making these test way to hard. (MrMacman)

This depends on the type of situation. As you described in your interpretation of my educational facility, Pascack Hills...

>It seems like where you live, teachers have small class sizes, new textbooks, teaching supplies and can make up their own idea of what students are supposto learn, you must be a very lucky person if this is the case

and yours...

>in NY, teachers are forced to teach in a silly set of guidelines are stuctured so that no innovation can be brought in to help students learn.

I would blame the test makers (and I always will) for whoever makes up state-wide or region-wide tests. But I do not blame them as much as the teachers. In your case, MrMacman, I would blame the test makers more so than the test makers in my area.

But then the question comes to mind: Why are teachers being paid to do something they can't?

In extreme cases, such as in the story and in CA, as discussed earlier, this may be the case of the test makers, and the blame may be placed on them.

The whole reason for this debate is a difference in viewpoints. I feel I am satisfied to know both now.

>Intelligence is key but because of the lack of pay in NY City there are few to many teachers and unfortunately teachers are being hired, even if they have less the needed intelligence.

I hear that. But then why would there not be so many failing students in the past years? Why would this year 85% of students fail major tests in comparison to other percentages and years? Teachers should still be hired for pay in such extreme cases, and whoever pays to have them teach should have a worthy salary.

>so if Mutiple Choice OR essya is not the correct way to make a test, what is since this is your view.

I repeat: Make effective tests that are easy to grade and easy to make.

>I will not comment any further on your disrespectful comments.

Then perhaps you should not read them, either.

>Because the finals, regency use the information directly from the textbooks. Of coarse the teacher will try to pull in their own knowledge and shouldn't be forced to stick to the book. Hopefully the textbook is not outdated like many are.

>The best case senerio is that the person has a textbook that was made after the cold war ended, though again, this happens infrequently.

>Can I control you? No, I cannot, thereforce you can draw any and all conclusions from what I say. Even if they are incorrect.

Again, you are addressing your viewpoint of the educational system around you. I may never have to encompass such a condition. but I understand what you are talking about.

>No new material? Does events not occur everyday? New things happen every second of the day. How do you teach wihtout being informed?
Example: The Tonkin Gulf.
Durind the 70's and 80's people thought we were attacked and hence we went to war, what we know now, is that the attack was a fake and one big lie. Do not believe me? Here you go. (http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940727.html)
Teacher have a job to keep informed and to know there stuff!

I have to correct myself on that.

>At any particular day anyone reads that line, today will be the same day the person is reading the line. (Andrej)

>Um, technically that statement made grammatical sense, in reality, it did not.
'If person A reads line A, Therefore person A has read line A.' (MrMacman)

The condition here was "today". It is a reference to an immediate moment of time in which a change in activities is occurring. At anytime someone reads this, it is at that immediate time. It doesn't take a full minute to read this sentence.

>On a side note, there was a small teachers party at my house and they all said that you being overly critical of them. And all wondered where you lived so they can all go there to teach.

For now, New Jersey. But I'll me moving to Maine. Tell them to ask me in a week.

>(You have sufficed by bi-weekly requirement of debate for the next month with all of his being said.)

I'll let that sit in its parenthesis by itself.

>edit: I Totally agree with G5orbust. Without money you can't expect to teach well, like you are King Cobra/Andrej

That is just T.S. But it doesn't mean that students, who have to suffer this sentiment, are going to fail in their careers. Isn't overall success and effort what matters?

BTW: I emailed arn about having my username changed to Andrej, which is my real name.

King Cobra
Jun 22, 2003, 06:43 PM
>Dude, you're just graduating high school. No wonder you hate teachers. (pseudobrit)

I never said that. I was placing the majority of the blame on them, but I don't hate them.

>You have no idea what goes on in teaching and how involved they are.

Ms. LaBella: My retired Biology teacher, one of my favorite teachers, up to 200 papers to grade at any given time from her classes each year, ranging from projects to quizzes and tests. Even with a pention and retirement, she still has to travel to many locals and meet with the Board of Directors every month.

As for your other comment, I agree strongly with most of what you said. But...

>They're as scrutinized and held more accountable than politicians

I find politicians a much more effecient source of misaccountabilities and miscommunications, as well as being a committee of people in $1000 suits and sitting on their rear ends all day.

pseudobrit
Jun 22, 2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by King Cobra
Ms. LaBella: My retired Biology teacher, one of my favorite teachers, up to 200 papers to grade at any given time from her classes each year, ranging from projects to quizzes and tests. Even with a pention and retirement, she still has to travel to many locals and meet with the Board of Directors every month.

You don't think her hard work is typical of teachers? You think all they have to do is make and grade papers, tests and quizzes?

Ever heard of a lesson plan?

I find politicians a much more effecient source of misaccountabilities and miscommunications, as well as being a committee of people in $1000 suits and sitting on their rear ends all day.

Teachers are charged with the upbringing and wellbeing of (up to) hundreds of people's most loved and protected possessions and they're paid with taxpayer money. Politicians just get the money.

King Cobra
Jun 24, 2003, 09:47 AM
>You don't think her hard work is typical of teachers? You think all they have to do is make and grade papers, tests and quizzes? (pseudobrit)

I am aware that teachers have a lot of work to do. For instance: Grading papers, preparing them...

>Ever heard of a lesson plan?

Yes, I have. And I know how lesson plans work.

...familiarizing themselves with lesson plans, gathering and preparing equipment, signing in, attending faculty/staff meetings, signing a ridiculous number of contracts and documents, etc.

To answer your first two questions, I think that her hard work is typical of teachers. No, I do not feel that teachers only work with grading and preparing tests and quizzes.

pseudobrit
Jun 24, 2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by King Cobra
To answer your first two questions, I think that her hard work is typical of teachers. No, I do not feel that teachers only work with grading and preparing tests and quizzes.

Then how can you blame teachers for the stupidity of American kids? They're doing more work than they were 30 years ago.

I have a theory: American kids have always been less intelligent than they should be. They are more intelligent here than they were 50 years ago, of course, but the world has outstripped that growth and surpassed us.

People just get nostalgic for the "good old days" when US education seemed to be the best; they also look at their past through rose-coloured glasses and forget about all the stupid kids they went to school with.

Then they look for something/one to blame for why our intelligence growth hasn't kept up. Teachers are an easy mark for these people because just a quarter century ago, teaching was not a profession but a job done by women who couldn't get good grades in college. It's changed completely since then, partly because of government demands, but mostly because of the professional push and evolution of the NEA and other unions.

King Cobra
Jun 24, 2003, 01:28 PM
>Then how can you blame teachers for the stupidity of American kids? They're doing more work than they were 30 years ago. (pseudobrit)

I didn't blame the teacher for anyone's stupidity.

From my point of view, I blame teachers for simply not teaching correctly, and I emphasize that because they are the only members of an educational faculty, who are instructed to give the students an education, American or not.

This view may be arguable to the reader if the educational system around him/her is different than mine. For instance, the issue discussed about in the article would place more blame on whoever is neglecting to provide the materials for the teachers so they can do their job.

It just so happens that NYC is in America. If NYC was in Europe or Asia, the comment of >Then how can you blame teachers for the stupidity of American kids?< would be no more and no less justified than > Then how can you blame teachers for the stupidity of European/Asian kids?<.

MacFan25
Jun 24, 2003, 02:26 PM
I'd say that the bad test scores was a combination of things that went wrong.

1. Some of the teachers aren't teaching properly. Some are wonderful teachers, but there are always a few that don't teach very good.

2. The test was not very good. It may have had things that were not in the standards for teachers to teach.

3. The students didn't do there best on the test. There will always be a few that fail, and a few that do great on tests.

4. The state and local school boards give teachers these 'standards' that they are supposed to teach their students. Some teachers will find the time to teach their students all the standards and some won't.

Personally, I can't stand it whenever at the end of the year, we have to rush through everything and cover multiple subjects that we didn't have time to go over during the rest of the year. I think that the big problem is that teachers aren't finding enough time to teach their students all the standards.

One more thing, I'm sick of hearing everyone say, "Teachers are underpaid. They don't make enough money." Well, they knew going into their job that they weren't going to be overly-paid. Teachers may have a lot of work to do during the school year (ie. grade papers, make up tests, make up lessen plans), but look at how much time they get off during the year. They get 2 weeks at Christmas, numerous holidays during the school year off, and they don't have to work for 2 and 1/2 months during the summer, not to mention sick days and personal days.

So, if you add all that vacation time up, how much is it? A lot if you ask me. This is why I don't think teachers are underpaid. I think some teachers (not all) need to stop worrying about how much money they are making, and they need to start coming up with some creative ways of teaching.

Sorry for the rant. :)

pseudobrit
Jun 24, 2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by MacFan25
One more thing, I'm sick of hearing everyone say, "Teachers are underpaid. They don't make enough money." Well, they knew going into their job that they weren't going to be overly-paid. Teachers may have a lot of work to do during the school year (ie. grade papers, make up tests, make up lessen plans), but look at how much time they get off during the year. They get 2 weeks at Christmas, numerous holidays during the school year off, and they don't have to work for 2 and 1/2 months during the summer, not to mention sick days and personal days.

So, if you add all that vacation time up, how much is it? A lot if you ask me. This is why I don't think teachers are underpaid.

Teachers don't get paid for the time they're off. They do have to work during that "time off," and while they can take vacation, it's not three solid months of time off. Considering they work ~80 hours a week for 10 months of the year, cutting it back for a 2 shouldn't be an issue.

The idea of teachers being underpaid is the same as the armed forces or police: just because they know the pay sucks going in doesn't mean it's okay that it stays that way. Every one of these groups are professionals who go through intensive training and make huge sacrifices in their lives to pursue their career. Teachers are highly educated. Anyone with their amount of education in a private sector degree could be making triple what a teacher's salary pays to start. But they do what they love, and little things like money don't upset them too much. The unions keep them from being exploited because of this attitude.

Some are wonderful teachers, but there is always a few that don't teach very good.

Oh, the irony! Obviously your English teacher wasn't one of them.

Jimong5
Jun 25, 2003, 12:20 AM
I have to throw this in, but, frankly, shouldnt a test like this be normeed and curved? the AP tests devide the tasters into 5 groups, compared to everyone else. this means only 40% end up "failing" so to speak, even if everyone bombs the test, It gives a representatave sample of the test takes and says who knows their stuff and who doesnt. The question Is why wasnt this test curved, even after 85% failed. that shouldnt happen, even if the entire stuent population is clueless, then thats the pool of people, and the test SHOULD reflect that regardless.

pseudobrit
Jun 25, 2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by MacFan25
Well, in my local school system the teacher aren't paid for being off, but they are paid while they are off. Anyway, I don't really want to argue. Everyone has their own opinions.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Their salary is negotiated for the time they work. Thus teachers are paid for the months they work, not for the time they're off.

Most teachers will have their salary stretched over the entire year so that they get regular monthly paychecks, but they have the option of only receiving (bigger) checks for their work during the school year.

phrancpharmD
Jun 25, 2003, 10:23 AM
When teachers are FORCED (legally obligated) to teach a "curriculum" in that "no student [is] left behind" there is no way they can teach with any passion. When teachers do not facilitate learning with passion, there is no way students will be motivated to learn, and the entire process backfires on itself. The entire purpose of "no child left behind" is to TEACH the material COVERED by the STANDARDIZED TESTS! How *******g boring could it possibly be? Brings to mind the scene in "The Wall" where the kids are falling off the assembly line and the shot cuts to the meat grinder. And as far as teachers taking too long to design test questions, you could argue that designing the assessment instrument (test) is the MOST important part of an educator's job - a well-devised test should effectively separate the wheat from the chaff. Our (USA) education system fails at several levels - and most are due to inadequate funding (although finding untold US$ billions to meddle in the Middle East are CERTAINLY well spent, right?). Our system fails to enforce any sort of accountability on the students AND teachers AND beaurocrats. Beaurocrats are by far not educators, yet they dictate to the teachers what they must teach. Teachers resent this and will provide only MINIMAL guidance to students (I know, not ALL teachers). Students are bored and uninterested and don't care (I know, not ALL of you. . .) because they'll eventually graduate. And that's where the travesty is; those morons will attend college and dilute the experience for those of you truly interested in learning. Which unfortunately eventually percolates to our graduate and professional programs, and people with no business graduating with Doctoral degrees in Pharmacy, Medicine, and other disciplines walk across the stage. All perpetuated by the abject complacency rampant in our system from Pre-K (probably) through graduate and professional level curiculums. So who's fault is it? IT'S ALL OF OURS FOR PERMITTING OUR "GOVERNMENT" TO HAVE RETARDED (no pun intended) FUNDING PRIORITIES.

MrMacMan
Jun 25, 2003, 11:56 PM
You mean "debate [you] any-day".
No, I mean anyone, I have a lot to say and today, I debate you, maybe tomorrow someone will put another good debate up, maybe I will post there.
But grammar wise maybe that would make more sense.

Perhaps not. But there is no rule in a teacher's contract saying "You cannot leave the job of teaching if you cannot pay for your supplies."
You hit me with a double negative and I'm not sure it applies to your quote.
If your saying they can leave the job, well yes, they can leave for anything, but if you wee looking for money you probably don't want to be a teacher, you want to help people.

If teachers don't need better paying, or if they already have enough money to do this out of will, they will.
No doubt about it, I would give money to people if I had it too, but many schools and teachers don't.
I understand that a teacher can only go so far with the availability of equipment and supplies, but the staff/administration isn't teaching the students. The teachers are.
Yes, but since the teachers are giving, like you have stated, why can't the administration give a little too?

(ME)>Does their job say, 'out of your petty salary pay for everything you need to teach' no, it doesn't, but the difference comes when you NEED the materials to teach students, this is where your part of the debate falls.

Andrej -- If certain supplies are needed, then it is a big factor on education. If this is your intended point, MrMacman, you were not clear on this when you set aside time on your schedule for debating me, then proceeded to debate me.

I'm glad you cleared this up for the both of us.


I thought I made my point clear there, but okay.
If students need a notebook, some paper, pencils, pens your not gonna say 'no, sorry' Your gonna try your best to help the students.
You need Materials to teach with, hopefully the school can supply the textbooks the the curriculum mandates you to teach from, if not, it will be a hard struggle for you to get these students to pass any test, and will be even harder for a state regency.
This depends on the type of situation. As you described in your interpretation of my educational facility, Pascack Hills...
Situation: State Regency, you blame?
and yours...
My School is above average for anyplace, but in the city things aren't even close to peachy.
Think if your school was white city schools are dark-brown . Schools run out of supplies and money, textbooks are outdated, you can't make photocopies for handouts, its just horrible all around.

I would blame the test makers (and I always will) for whoever makes up state-wide or region-wide tests. But I do not blame them as much as the teachers. In your case, MrMacman, I would blame the test makers more so than the test makers in my area.
Okay, so you are now in semi- agreeance
Your School - Teachers > Test Makers
Mine (State?) -- Teachers ~ Test Makers-??

But then the question comes to mind: Why are teachers being paid to do something they can't?

In extreme cases, such as in the story and in CA, as discussed earlier, this may be the case of the test makers, and the blame may be placed on them.
You mean make the test, I would love to see actual teachers making my states regency, they could make it so people know what will be on it! Heck we might have a chance!

CA? I thought that story was about NY... strange... newsday... the paper I get delivered to me... :confused:

The whole reason for this debate is a difference in viewpoints. I feel I am satisfied to know both now.
Aint that the reason for all debates? :D

I hear that. But then why would there not be so many failing students in the past years? Why would this year 85% of students fail major tests in comparison to other percentages and years? Teachers should still be hired for pay in such extreme cases, and whoever pays to have them teach should have a worthy salary.

Now I thought I made this point very very clear. The people who make the test are making them harder and harder, to the level where very few people can pass. How can you blame it on teachers who have no control of the state?

I repeat: Make effective tests that are easy to grade and easy to make.

Should I repeat too: How if you say multiple choice is boring and Essay takes too long, What Would You use?

Then perhaps you should not read them, either.

Or maybe you shouldn't make them? (half playing with you, but seriously, I didn't like the comment.)
Again, you are addressing your viewpoint of the educational system around you. I may never have to encompass such a condition. but I understand what you are talking about.
Fair enough, but if you haven't endured the condition how can you judge it properly?
This is also like the people who make the test, how can they make them if they haven't visited a school in such a long time?
I have to correct myself on that.
Not a problem.
The condition here was "today". It is a reference to an immediate moment of time in which a change in activities is occurring. At anytime someone reads this, it is at that immediate time. It doesn't take a full minute to read this sentence.
Ah, my mistake. Again, I'm just a high-school student I haven't finished english and hence, grammar yet.
For now, New Jersey. But I'll me moving to Maine. Tell them to ask me in a week.
Ah, have a good time on the move.
That is just T.S. But it doesn't mean that students, who have to suffer this sentiment, are going to fail in their careers. Isn't overall success and effort what matters?
Even though I didn't get what 'T.S.' was (total, time... eh?) I get your point.
We all know most of these test mean little to nothing, but if you fail you are forced to endure taking the class again, which is and could be a real pain.

BTW: I emailed arn about having my username changed to Andrej, which is my real name.
Eh, personally names don't matter, I use MrMacMan/MacMan and Jeremiah (real name) invariably when speaking online...
People could call me (just about) anything.

Originally posted by MacFan25
I'd say that the bad test scores was a combination of things that went wrong.

1. Some of the teachers aren't teaching properly. Some are wonderful teachers, but there are always a few that don't teach very good.

2. The test was not very good. It may have had things that were not in the standards for teachers to teach.

3. The students didn't do there best on the test. There will always be a few that fail, and a few that do great on tests.

4. The state and local school boards give teachers these 'standards' that they are supposed to teach their students. Some teachers will find the time to teach their students all the standards and some won't.

1. Absolutely.
2. Not sure where you live "Location: USA" is quite a general area... :p But the test was unusually hard, I took the other past regency's and did nice up high 80's - a August 99 -- 100
3. Eh so you expect some people to fail, how about 20-40(extrem high)%
fail, that would be normal, not that many people didn't try all on the same day.
4. My teacher got through everything, but the state never said 3D diagrams, what the hell is that? And another one of the questions the answer you get .5 of a CD, where is the real world application there, how can you get half of a CD?
Personally, I can't stand it whenever at the end of the year, we have to rush through everything and cover multiple subjects that we didn't have time to go over during the rest of the year. I think that the big problem is that teachers aren't finding enough time to teach their students all the standards.

One more thing, I'm sick of hearing everyone say, "Teachers are underpaid. They don't make enough money." Well, they knew going into their job that they weren't going to be overly-paid. Teachers may have a lot of work to do during the school year (i.e.. grade papers, make up tests, make up lessen plans), but look at how much time they get off during the year. They get 2 weeks at Christmas, numerous holidays during the school year off, and they don't have to work for 2 and 1/2 months during the summer, not to mention sick days and personal days.

So, if you add all that vacation time up, how much is it? A lot if you ask me. This is why I don't think teachers are underpaid. I think some teachers (not all) need to stop worrying about how much money they are making, and they need to start coming up with some creative ways of teaching.

Sorry for the rant. :)

WTF, The board has a 10k Charcter limit?(Continued)

MrMacMan
Jun 25, 2003, 11:59 PM
Eh, my mom has to teach 180 days a year, then make phone calls to parents, and make extra 'help' sessions, ext. Some days are also days they don't count for the school year, teacher only days I didn't count, if there are open-schoolhouse they have to go, etc.

As for the money, it is pretty bad, with the former inflation pattern (now looking like deflation [thanks bush]) people expect to get more money, it took a new mayor you approve a teachers contract, even when the city had money and 9/11 didn't happen they didn't approve it.
Anyway during vacation you don't get money, do you? I mean during any off time do you get money coming it, cause where are you working?

:reads pseudobrit post under that:
Awww, crap. Well he already said most of the thing I said...

Jimong5, agreed, NYS doesn't want too many people passing though...

phrancpharmD, Some very valid points after the CAPITAL letters.

For anyone who cares I got a 73 , I'm dis- appointed that I didn't get 80's but it was a hard test what can I say?

I mean does that mean In the like 80th percentile or something?

(Note: longest of my posts ever? Yes, the Quotes took space too, but I hit the 10k wall?!?!?!?) :eek:

bennetsaysargh
Jun 26, 2003, 09:36 AM
sorry. but the state is to blame.
my mom is complaining about to much state assesments, and stuff like that from albany. even the tachers are complaining. they give us a million practice exams that we sometimes never see, that takes away from class time. even more class time is taken away for unimportant stuff that will be on the test that is too simple to even be in the cirriculum. the tests have things that we haven't done in the past 5 years, and we know it too well. the teachers are really pissed because they cant teach what they think is more important because a)not enougth time and b) not in the curriculum because the state is being a bunch of morons. NYS is not being very smart because they teach some things in completely stupid ways that are not efficiant at all. in 3rd grade, they taught me 6 different ways of doing multipoication. my teacher was so friggin pissed it wasn't even funny. i don't remember how to do any of those ways except the normal way.


the sate is messed up. i should get inside the system, and make it a little better! who wants to help me?

MarksEvilTwin
Jun 26, 2003, 06:14 PM
Removed

King Cobra
Jun 28, 2003, 10:09 PM
Well, even though this issue of "who is to blame?" has been cleared up, there are some things that stick out in my mind...

>I would blame the test makers (and I always will) for whoever makes up state-wide or region-wide tests. But I do not blame them as much as the teachers. In your case, MrMacman, I would blame the test makers more so than the test makers in my area. (Andrej)

>Okay, so you are now in semi- agreeance
Your School - Teachers > Test Makers
Mine (State?) -- Teachers ~ Test Makers-?? (MrMacman)

I am agreeing from your point of view: Teachers cannot do their job if they tried, because they do not have ample materials.

My point of view considers the average educational facility, which has a working educational system and ample teaching materials. In this general senario, since ample materials are supplied to the teachers, there should be no reason for a large portion of students to fail tests.

>I repeat: Make effective tests that are easy to grade and easy to make. (Andrej)

>Should I repeat too: How if you say multiple choice is boring and Essay takes too long, What Would You use? (MrMacman)

Multiple choice questions require a lot of decision making by faculty/staff/test makers to decide what are the most common wrong responses. In a professional exam, each MC question can take up to (or more than) one hour to perfect.

Essays take a while to both read and grade, depending on the student's handwriting and questionable accuracy in responses.

A suggestion: One word or one line responses.

>Fair enough, but if you haven't endured the condition how can you judge it properly?

Ah, experience. The supportive weapon for evidence. Well, I don't have the same experiences you have.

>We all know most of these test mean little to nothing, but if you fail you are forced to endure taking the class again, which is and could be a real pain.

"Is and could be" those words are a poor choice.

The same senario about repeating courses for failure applies to licenses, permit, various tests, etc. The "real pain" that is faced is the loss of valuable time to retake "x" credit hours for the same course.

Oh, and you really need to appreciate the 10K characters limit. I had to do two posts about a year ago because of the limit.

MrMacMan
Jun 29, 2003, 10:16 PM
I am agreeing from your point of view: Teachers cannot do their job if they tried, because they do not have ample materials.
Ah, agreed.

My point of view considers the average educational facility, which has a working educational system and ample teaching materials. In this general senario, since ample materials are supplied to the teachers, there should be no reason for a large portion of students to fail tests.
Yes, with everything good tests should be good.

Multiple choice questions require a lot of decision making by faculty/staff/test makers to decide what are the most common wrong responses. In a professional exam, each MC question can take up to (or more than) one hour to perfect.

Essays take a while to both read and grade, depending on the student's handwriting and questionable accuracy in responses.

A suggestion: One word or one line responses.

Ah, Short answer. That is a good choice.

Ah, experience. The supportive weapon for evidence. Well, I don't have the same experiences you have.
I'll leave your comment standing.

"Is and could be" those words are a poor choice.
Did I not use correct grammar? Is and can be? Could and is ___ ?


The same senario about repeating courses for failure applies to licenses, permit, various tests, etc. The "real pain" that is faced is the loss of valuable time to retake "x" credit hours for the same course.
Valid point, but no 70% of the people taking the test fail do they?
It was the right choice for them to make so senior that have failed previously could pass anyway.

Oh, and you really need to appreciate the 10K characters limit. I had to do two posts about a year ago because of the limit.
Was that sarcasm?
I was kinda annoyied especially cause word said that I had under 10k... :confused: It said 9,700 and MR said 10k, bah.

Its been good debating, but I think we came to a general consensus.

scem0
Jun 29, 2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by patrick0brien
-scem0

Don't forget that the SAT, ACT, GMAT, MCAT and LSAT are standardized tests as well. :D

I don't know a soul who'd call the LSAT easy.

Not smacking, just trying to show that it doesn't end.

Hmm. I suppose that could be depressing. Sorry, not my intent.

yeah, yeah, yeah. I know.... standardized tests aren't all ****s and giggles, but in the end I think they will end up helping me, because I score higher than most of the people I know.

Sigh..... school sucks. :(;)

Last day of summer school tomorrow!!!!!!!! :D

scem0

dr_spudboy
Jun 29, 2003, 11:11 PM
Look maybe I am being an insensitive person here but, from my own experiencens with state standardized tests (Colorado Student Assesment Program) and unacceptable amount fail what I see as easy tests. In my school you ended up with 4.0 students failing the tests while with my 3.33 GPA I sroced at an advanced level. Something is wrong. The material for the test was covered in class but one could pass it with no preparation. And for the arguement the student was not trying, I know this person and they tried to pass this thing, she is one of those overacheiver types. I wish I had a solution for that problem. As for the SAT it also showed similar results, I recieved a 700 math 750 verbal, whereas the student I brought up previously recived a 500 math 480 verbal. My resoning for this, the test was unfairly biased against her, she was stoned during testing, or a 4.0 isn't was it used to be. But I don't make the claim that I know what the problem is.

Frohickey
Jun 29, 2003, 11:24 PM
Its not solely the teachers fault. These people have a tough time when they need to educate unruly students or students that do not want to be there at all.

Its not solely the students fault. These can come from broken homes, where there is no way they can do homework, or even open the school books.

Its not solely the parents fault. Sometimes, these folks are stuck at poorly performing schools since their state legislatures has deemed that they can't get school vouchers to send their kids to a better school.

Test makers are not to blame. They just put the test questions in there that a panel of educators feel are suitable for the education level of the test takers.

ouketii
Jun 30, 2003, 09:50 PM
macs are good. if it works use it