WWDC - One Day More... Final Thoughts

[MacRumors]

This interim update is meant to provide some final thoughts and updates since the WWDC Rumor Roundup (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030615172214.shtml) from June 15, 2003 -- almost a week ago.

The majority of rumors described last week (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030615172214.shtml) hold true... with some additional details being provided over the past 6 days.

PowerMacs

Teasers (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030616171618.shtml) regarding unopenable boxes and an Apple Germany inviation provided hints of things to come... with Apple themselves (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030619233623.shtml) leaking information on PowerMac updates.

Unanswered in that leak, however, is the question of availability... which was a contended point in the previous Roundup (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030615172214.shtml). A couple of unconfirmed rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030618204823.shtml), this week, hinted that only low-end PowerMacs would be shipping immediately.

Recent information suggests that the machines will not see full availability until at least August. In fact, machines are said to be in prototype form at this time. The new machines are also said to be at higher price points than the towers they are replacing.

A possible photo (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030617132034.shtml) of the new PowerMacs appeared on the internet this week... but was ultimately confirmed to be fake (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030619133702.shtml). The photo received considerable attention due to it's consistency with the description in the 1 Infinate Cantina (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030610191919.shtml) article -- which is still felt to represent an accurate description of the new Tower.

PowerBooks

Again -- limited PowerBook information is available... however one hint (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030618204823.shtml) claimed no PowerBook updates at WWDC. If this is the case, PowerBook updates are still expected shortly. Rumors of 970 based PowerBooks are still considered less reliable.

Panther

The first real Panther (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030621013140.shtml) screenshots were revealed to the internet on Saturday -- and depicted new features, including a previous undescribed Window Management feature called Exposé. The long rumored Piles feature is not included.

One other "thing", simply called Xcode will accompany Panther... but no details are known what this represents.

Other...

A new web camera (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/videoconf.html) from Apple is still expected to accompany the video-enabled iChat.

[maradong]

yeah.
Thx for the summary.

[voicegy]

Rats, of all the things I was hoping for, it was a new AluPowerBook 15.4 incher. But, then again, I won't know for sure until Monday.:)

[mac15]

sounds all good, looks like we are in for a good WWDC.

I only wish the keynote was live

[MacBandit]

Who here thinks that we won't get anything tomorrow but a preview of 10.3 and all the updates will be held until the create conference. You know the keynote that was canceled and is now back on.

[cb911]

well... it starting to look like we would be lucky if we got PowerBook updates tomorrow... :(

i'm still hoping that Apple will release them thought. at least we'll get to see the PPC 970, that's almost certain.

and if the updates are held off until the Create Conference, i guess that won't be too bad. we've waited this long anyway. :rolleyes:

when is the Create Conference anyway?

[mac15]

well duh, it'll be like last time. first dev release then people get to pick at it and find bugs and ad requests.

I only think Safari will be released tomorrow as far as software goes anyways

[alia]

Some of the rumors floating around are that even if the 15" Powerbooks don't make it out at WWDC, they will be shipping by the end of July.

I don't know if there is any stock in said rumors though. That's the machine I'm waiting for, however. Man, waiting sucks.

Alia

[markiv810]

Now all we have to do is wait and watch, I would probably try to sleep through the waiting period (that is till the new PowerMac's are annouced). Good lcuk guys, I hope this turns out to be a win-win situtaion for both Apple and us (the consumers).

[alia]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Who here thinks that we won't get anything tomorrow but a preview of 10.3 and all the updates will be held until the create conference. You know the keynote that was canceled and is now back on.

That Create "feature presentation" isn't going to be given by Jobs though. Do you think he'd actually let anyone else announce new products? I don't have a lot of previous keynote-viewings under my belt, but both of them this year have been given by him. Thoughts?

Alia

[shadowfax]

I'm with Alia, i think that apple has more or less given the expo the finger. Apple updates will be monday or independent, IMO.

[Flowbee]

I'm personally looking forward to the rumor-site "score card" after the Keynote. There have been so many rumors floating around in the last month or so, I can't even remember who predicted what, and when. Arn's got a lot of material to sort through for the wrap-up. It's one of my favorite parts of these big events (because I can never afford to buy the new gear). :(

[QCassidy352]

I hope the rumors about delayed powermac availability aren't true. If there aren't at least the "low end" towers available... I think there will be a lot of disappointment. Please, let's not have a repeat of the 17" PB fiasco. :rolleyes: Though I do have to think that at least some of the new machines will be ready to go, just because stock of the old machines is SO low.

edit: though actually, maybe I'm wrong about that last part. Because the dual 1.42 still says shipping same day... crap. :(

[Golem]

Well the 15'' pbook is what I have been waiting for. I have been sitting on the cash for one for 4 months waiting.


If they dont release 15'' tomorrow I guess I will wait till July but if g5 tower is released i will have to make the hard decision between a G5 tower I can use for 11 month of year or a somewhat out of date tibook I can use 12 months of the year.

[solvs]

Here's my prediction:

Pather will be previewed and available "soon". Some of the iApps will be updated. The G5s will either be announced and some or all new PowerMacs will be available now. Or later. Or they won't. The new PowerBooks will be announced, or released. Or they won't. They may or may not have G5s in them.

I hope I'm right.

edit: (Please don't flame me, it was only a lame joke)

[spiff]

a propos the leaked info: has anyone seen that stuff on the apple site or just the "saved version" which could be downloaded?

i just hope for a 970 book. i won't buy anything else than a laptop (i'm a student, not a designer or sound engineer). a 12 incher would be the best stuff, though i would buy a 15.4" too.

the powerbooks have been in pretty a delay, and we've heard from apple buying 15.4" displays some time ago, so either they're gonna release a new one with an updated g4 or they'll wait for like 2 weeks and put in a 970.

but i don't understand why no stream is made available, if there is stuff release which is for the customers and not only the developers. maybe they're just previewing the 970, but won't ship yet. though: the sealed boxes seem to promise something.

does anyone know of the G4 availability? i've read, that there are no more 1.42-ers. so it could be, that a 1.6 970 will be the new top line, and later, in perhaps october, the new ones will arrive. but actually i don't see them mixing up designs and processors like that: too confusing.

[RogueLdr]

The following are my two cents...

I believe in the specs that were posted the other day on the Apple Store concerning the G5 for this reason: to cover themselves as far as the SEC is concerned, Apple would have to have admitted that erroneous info was on their site, regardless of the reason for the error.

I believe that 15" (whether 15.2" or 15.4") PowerBooks will be updated on Monday. This is due to the length of time that this model has gone without a refresh. The 12" and 17" were spec'd out to mesh nicely with the 15" without really cutting into its niche TOO much. They just gave the option of the slower processor in a smaller package or the faster processor in a larger package. The 15" is in need, however, of having other features (Airport Extreme, built-in Bluetooth, FW 800) brought up to par with its younger siblings. As the flagship (and by this, I mean first and most established) PB, Apple will have no problem boosting it past the 17" with a next gen processor.

From Panther screens, I believe that iChat will at least SUPPORT video-conferencing/streaming. Apple may or may not introduce a video camera. While it would be nice to use this new feature with a solid Apple product, we've seen with the relatively recent iTMS that Apple may look beyond the basic functionality of inhouse branded DLDs and look at how it can be a large revenue generator. In hindsight, the iPod/iTMS one-two seems perfectly calculated. I can't see (with my own limited vision) the growth potential for a webcam DLD as there are already plenty of reliable devices on the market and there is already an entrenched IM market that would have to be chipped away at. Providing new peripherals "Just for the Mac" doesn't seem to be where Apple is going at the moment.

Going by reports that IBM will be talking 970 at the WWDC, I can easily assume that 10.3 is 64bit (can you imagine reading that sentence if this was your first time at this site? LOL.) The only thing I want to know about 10.3 is what that means to those that stay on current hardware. Will they be able to use it at all? Will there be a 32bit version (is that even necessary?) If it can only run on 970s, will some of the neat features filter down to a 10.2.x update?

[codycartoon]

wake me up monday

[mgh02114]

Originally posted by Macrumors:

One other "thing", simply called Xcode will accompany Panther... but no details are known what this represents.



Isn't this going to be the final release version of X11?

In my wildest dreams, Apple will announce that it has ported OpenOffice.org and given it an Aqua interface. This would explain why the OOo Mac version has been so far behind.

Of course, this happen in my dreams right after the part where they announce an Apple digital video recorder with a DVD-R drive built in.

[spiff]

nice would be a camera add-on for the ipod (firewire-connector for the older ones/the new connector for the new ones) so you could use the cam on the go and also as a webcam connected to your mac using FW. though, problem is, that the ipods screen wouldn't suffice, so there would have to be an extra screen.
but i don't believe in it, since i hope the things announced will concetrate on the 970.

webcam would certainly be something for Create.

[RogueLdr]

This is total curiosity, but is there a record of new products that have NOT been introduced by SJ since his return? Would be interesting to see if there is an reason to think that some of these rumored items will be handled at MW's event.

[MacsRgr8]

Originally posted by codycartoon
wake me up monday

Here in Europe we'll have to sleep through the day.....
It's gonna be a long and exciting night!

[daHun]

an Apple Germany inviation provided hints of things to come...

Well, I've seen the invitation on a friend's desk. - It's nicely designed, square, a folded card (4 pages). It contains absolutely no hints on anything hardware/software. Just a mention of the keynote broadcast and a product showcase + a party afterwards.

If anything, it's the sheer scenario that indicates big news, but not the information itself...

[raeingoth]

Originally posted by QCassidy352
edit: though actually, maybe I'm wrong about that last part. Because the dual 1.42 still says shipping same day... crap. :(

hrmm... I had checked earlier today and all of the PowerMacs were showing as delivery est. 7-10 days. I believe that they might have set it back to "Same Day" as after all, this is Sunday, no orders going out, they can be changed on Monday... :P

[maradong]

well, as there are no open apple stores in a reasonable distance, i will have to wait till 1800 local time to see the keynote.
I really hope, the already quite slow Apple Servers in Europe, wont break down. Actually downloading from the Us is faster than downloading from the European one ;-)...

Please don t let the total bandwidth be used, nor let the server crash, once the site is updated, and gets some thousands of hits per minute ...

[thies]

higher pricepoint? So they went from overpriced and underpowered to decently powered but insanely overpriced? I'll pass. the new CPU is actually cheaper to obtain than Moto chips and Apple has a very fat profit margin on powermacs. Now they actually hike prices in the light of switcher campaigns? Total ************. Cut prices or stop wasting my time.

[h'biki]

they may increase the price of the powermac, especially at the top end, because they can. for the people that a dual 2ghz PPC970 is really aimed at (ie people who actually use it for, like, work rather than dick measuring) a few hundred bucks here and there is nothing when compared to the time and money you'll save with a faster machine.

i'm personally expecting apple to introcuce a lowcost box to answer everyone's cost concerns. a single process, headless, not really decked-out but decent iBox or something.

[thies]

Who buys a handicapped iBox when it is meant for switchers who measure price/performance by specs and then see that a Dell box offers more for less? Your argumentation doesn't hold up. 20% pricecut on the G5 lowend Powermac compared to the G4 and they still make a decent profit whilke actually being competitive.

[richie]

Don't forget there's a significant R&D cost on this, particularly if Apple is having two motherboards for the line (as is being conjectured). Apple survives on those large margins, and frankly, if Apple believes they can milk nice profits from these new machines that we're all craving, and still sell significant volume above the current G4s, that makes sense to the board and to stockholders.

[thies]

yet doesn't make sense to the masses of potential switchers who were seemingly a main objective until now and who simply won't switch with even increased prices apart from a neglectable minority.

[Kool]

Specs from GIF FAKE!!!

The Dutch website MacFreak (http://www.macfreak.org/cgi/forums/readnews.cgi?action=newspage&newscount=29#1056117763) is reporting that the specs on the GIF were fake. The author of the website could confirm this thru several contacts from within Apple itself.

It seems that someone form an external bureau that Apple has worked with before still had access to the Akamai server. That way he could upload the gif without Apple knowing about it.

Sorry folks, don't believe these specs yet...

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by alia
That Create "feature presentation" isn't going to be given by Jobs though. Do you think he'd actually let anyone else announce new products? I don't have a lot of previous keynote-viewings under my belt, but both of them this year have been given by him. Thoughts?

Alia

Yeah, I think he would. I mean the 15.4 is not going to be a drastic change. Steve got the wow factor with the 12" and 17" PowerBooks, now the 15" is technically a 'necessary update' - that's all. So it'll probably be intro'd at Create, just to have something to show.

[makkystyle]

Originally posted by thies
Who buys a handicapped iBox when it is meant for switchers who measure price/performance by specs and then see that a Dell box offers more for less? Your argumentation doesn't hold up. 20% pricecut on the G5 lowend Powermac compared to the G4 and they still make a decent profit whilke actually being competitive.

I think you better start learning how to read financial statements before you start giving advice on how Apple should price it's products. For FY2002 (that's "Full Year" in case you didn't know) apple had only a 1% return on net sales (see apple's 5 year financials here (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=107357&p=irol-reports) ). For FY2001 they had NO return on net sales because they made a loss. I'm not quite sure how reducing profit margins so you can afford to buy a machine would help them. They aren't making a "decent profit" as is much less if they start cutting margins. If you want to rant, rant about something you have an education on.

Getting back on topic, I expect that prices might rise a bit for the mid and higher end machines because as stated in previous posts these are the machines that professionals who really NEED the speed will buy. I still think that they will try and keep the low end at current levels (although, this might not be true if they decide as someone suggested to continue selling one G4 model, like the dual 1.25??). I'm waiting for monday to see if this is worth a graduation present.

[WorldMage]

Originally posted by cb911
well... it starting to look like we would be lucky if we got PowerBook updates tomorrow... :(

i'm still hoping that Apple will release them thought. at least we'll get to see the PPC 970, that's almost certain.

Something I haven't heard mentioned is that there were fairly solid reports of Apple receiving shipments of 1.4Ghz PPC 970's. If we now take the 1.6, 1.8, 2x2.0 Ghz Desktops for a reality.

It leaves one to wonder where those 1.4Ghz PPC 970's went?

[makkystyle]

Originally posted by Kool
Specs from GIF FAKE!!!

The Dutch website MacFreak (http://www.macfreak.org/cgi/forums/readnews.cgi?action=newspage&newscount=29#1056117763) is reporting that the specs on the GIF were fake. The author of the website could confirm this thru several contacts from within Apple itself.

It seems that someone form an external bureau that Apple has worked with before still had access to the Akamai server. That way he could upload the gif without Apple knowing about it.

Sorry folks, don't believe these specs yet...

This has been reported several times already. I'm not positive, but I think if they were fake that Apple would have to make some kind of comment on them due to false advertising laws and full disclosure laws. If companies were allowed to let false information loose then they could manipulate their share price. If it was hacked apple would have to say that this was not the real information so that they were not seen to be doing the aforementioned manipulation.

[spiff]

It leaves one to wonder where those 1.4Ghz PPC 970's went?

lets hope for the powerbooks. though, i don't believe it. i think it's better to reduce our expectations a bit.

[MasonMcD]

regarding a final X11 as a requirement for OpenOffice, who needs that? qt is ported to mac, and is opensource now, so we get stuff like KOffice!

http://ranger.befunk.com/blog/archives/000072.html

[thies]

if you could read financial statements you'd see that they plainly state that they don't make gains because noone buys the friggin underpowered powermacs and that they issued profit warnings in case those sales don't drasticly improve. If you poke around further you'd realize that Apple makes as much as 30% profits from the sale of a powermac.

[thies]

PS: and quite frankly, if they can't match the pricepoint of PC's, they are doing something wrong.

[skunk]

Originally posted by makkystyle
If it was hacked apple would have to say that this was not the real information so that they were not seen to be doing the aforementioned manipulation.
Unless the specs were real or understated....

[skunk]

Originally posted by WorldMage
It leaves one to wonder where those 1.4Ghz PPC 970's went?
Well OBVIOUSLY the 1.4s are going in the new iMacs and Powerbooks....:)
Or the "cheap" headless desktop...

[Centris 650]

Originally posted by Macrumors
PowerMacs
The new machines are also said to be at higher price points than the towers they are replacing.


Awww man! I was really hoping for close to the same price structure though I knew they'd up the price. Well, I guess I'll just have to get the 1.6 instead of the 1.8. A 1.6 gig machine will still give me a warm fuzzy feeling. :D

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by h'biki
(ie people who actually use it for, like, work rather than dick measuring)

LOL. "like, work." Get off your high horse. How many people use macs because they _have_ to? Not all that many, as a percentage. Most apps are available on PC's, and they work fine. We use Macs because we _like_ them. You're just as frivolous as the rest of us.

[centauratlas]

> Do you think he'd actually let anyone else announce new products?<

Definitely not. Lets face it, he is a great at it, loves doing it, and there is no way he'd let someone else announce something like the G5. The G5 is too big a step for Apple to entrust to someone else.

[Raiden]

hey does anyone know when the keynote will be happening in east coast (EST) hours? Someone said 2.00, but I want to make sure...

thanks.

[trebblekicked]

thanks for the summary:

this is all very exciting. good stuff on the horizon, it seems. since i'm not in the market for a new machine, the panther features are a nice thing to focus on. i'll be ready to go g5 by rev. b. if the powermac rumors hold true, MacBid would have had the scoop for months. i guess we'll have to wait and see.

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by centauratlas
> Do you think he'd actually let anyone else announce new products?<

Definitely not. Lets face it, he is a great at it, loves doing it, and there is no way he'd let someone else announce something like the G5. The G5 is too big a step for Apple to entrust to someone else.

Well, considering the general concensus is that the G5 will be at WWDC, the new G4 15.4" Powerbook will not be a big deal, and we're talking about the Create show anyway. Read the posts.

[Lyle]

Originally posted by Raiden
hey does anyone know when the keynote will be happening in east coast (EST) hours? Someone said 2.00, but I want to make sure...

thanks.
According to the schedule for Monday (http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/monday.html) it's at 10:00 a.m. west coast (Pacific) time, so that means 1:00 p.m. EST (and not 2:00 p.m. EST).

[Ashami]

Okay, just for fun, this is what I think Monday will look like:

Panther preview
1) new iChat with videoconferencing
2) ability to change ui from metal to aqua (ie. themes)
3) much snappier(tm)
4) Quicktime 6.5
5) All iApps updated

New 970s
1) Called the G5 (yuk)
2) low end towers and pro books available immediately, others in a month or two
3) iMac and iBook lines will have 970s by year's end
4) low-end 970s will rival Intel's best
5) all prices will be the same as current models (if not slightly less)
6) a completely new, kick-ass case

Other
1) several immediate software updates: for sure Safari
2) iWorks demo
3) possibly 10.2.6 update
4) new videocam
5) some new ultracool iThing
6) Steve will wear a red turtleneck

[Sonofhaig]

The Event

- The forums will be closed during WWDC due to server demands.
- No Live stream is publically available.


Will MacRumors be giving a blow-by-blow like with previous shows?

No live stream means no info out at all?

[IndyGopher]

Originally posted by Lyle
According to the schedule for Monday (http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/monday.html) it's at 10:00 a.m. west coast (Pacific) time, so that means 1:00 p.m. EST (and not 2:00 p.m. EST).
Actually, that would be 12:00 EST. And since only Indiana is on EST, the point is pretty moot for someone on the east coast, where they are on EDT.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by Sonofhaig
The Event

- The forums will be closed during WWDC due to server demands.
- No Live stream is publically available.


Will MacRumors be giving a blow-by-blow like with previous shows?

No live stream means no info out at all? there will propbably be a low-bandwidth version of the site up that you can check every few minutes, plus the IRC channel will be open. check that out.

[SlimHades]

Speaking of the irc channel, I've been getting 'connection refused' errors trying to log on to the server itself since late Friday night.

Is the server still up? Are some domains being banned?

[tny]

Originally posted by Lyle
According to the schedule for Monday (http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/monday.html) it's at 10:00 a.m. west coast (Pacific) time, so that means 1:00 p.m. EST (and not 2:00 p.m. EST).

Discovered post was redundant. 10:00 am PDT = 1:00 pm EDT.

[Lokii]

Originally posted by makkystyle
I think you better start learning how to read financial statements before you start giving advice on how Apple should price it's products. For FY2002 (that's "Full Year" in case you didn't know) apple had only a 1% return on net sales (see apple's 5 year financials here (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=107357&p=irol-reports) ). For FY2001 they had NO return on net sales because they made a loss. I'm not quite sure how reducing profit margins so you can afford to buy a machine would help them. They aren't making a "decent profit" as is much less if they start cutting margins. If you want to rant, rant about something you have an education on.


Actually FY2002 means fiscal year 2002, not full year. On top of that inaccuracy, Apple could benefit by lowering the price on low end powermacs if they are elastic goods. For example, if they lower price by 10% and thereby increase sales by 15%, Apple stands to earn greater revenue.

Take your own advice on ranting and an education.

Lokii

[emdezet]

Originally posted by Lokii
low end powermacs if they are elastic goods

Lokii

and you know, if powermacs were elastic goods, nobody could stopp em. they'd be a-bouncin all over the place like flubber and that gift-thingy from some alien in "men in black".

and everybody'd be like: "where's all those powermacs coming from?" and then they'd all be like: "don't know man. looks to me they're elastic goods!"

actually, if you tame one, you can have him bouncing quite idly by your display with a couple of cables attached. oh, and that head-crash thingy has been taken care of by polymeier storage solutions


[mod edit: personal insults will not be tolerated & result in a banning. :rolleyes:]

[chetwilliams]

Originally posted by makkystyle
For FY2002 (that's "Full Year" in case you didn't know)
Sorry, but FY stands for "fiscal year".

[Bozola]

What about the possibility of new "Adjustable " LCD monitors....

Nobody's talking about them....

[chetwilliams]

Originally posted by Bozola
What about the possibility of new "Adjustable " LCD monitors....

I predict that Apple will go retro and bring back a 13-inch black-and-white monitor. It will only cost them pennies to make and they can sell it to all of us fanatics for thousands. Plus, Aqua will be super-snappy since it will only have to push a 16-color 640x200 screen (640x400 interlace, if you can stand the flicker). ;)

[wizard]

My feelings exactly!!!!!

If Apple goes and pulls this stunt again I may permantly loose interest in their hardware. Like I said before the hardware software combo from apple is worth a little extra over the equivalent form the PC world, but if they go back to raping their customers all deals are off.

Apple will probally try to pass the machines off as unique and not matched by anything in the PC world. Even if it is true for the few minutes of the conference it won't be for long afterward.

Dave


higher pricepoint? So they went from overpriced and underpowered to decently powered but insanely overpriced? I'll pass. the new CPU is actually cheaper to obtain than Moto chips and Apple has a very fat profit margin on powermacs. Now they actually hike prices in the light of switcher campaigns? Total ************. Cut prices or stop wasting my time.

[h'biki]

Originally posted by soggywulf
LOL. "like, work." Get off your high horse. How many people use macs because they _have_ to? Not all that many, as a percentage. Most apps are available on PC's, and they work fine. We use Macs because we _like_ them. You're just as frivolous as the rest of us.

I said nothing about 'have to' using macs.

What I was saying that those who will complain about the high-price (relative to what they can actually afford) of the dual 2ghz 970 when it comes out (and I think it'll be within the price of the dual 1.4ghz) just don't get it. The machine isn't marketed at them. Its aimed at professionals for whom the cost isn't that much of an issue. Apple may charge an extra premium on it because of that reason. For professionals the $200 price difference between that and a 1.4 G4 is more than made up by the speed advantages of the 970. And yes, I am one of those professionals. Speed is essential to my line of work - I'm a video editor. Half an hour to an hour in saved rendering time can mean the difference between meeting a deadline and pissing off clients. This is why so many posties are moving to wintel for rendering. It has nothing to do with cost savings and everything to do with performance.

I ask what the hell kind of consumer needs a dual 2ghz 970?

(I actually often think the same about 3ghz P4s. What the hell kind of consumer needs a 3ghz P4? All you're going to do on it is download porn, rip DIVXs and play crap games)

They don't need one. Its a luxury. I'd love to be able to afford one for my personal use but I'm not going to be able to and thats fine, cause I don't need it.

A lower-end G5 I can understand being 'needed' by a consumer to do things reasonably with iPhoto and iMovie. Hence why I think Apple might introduce an iBox deal. It may be crippled, sure, but in price/performance it'll be an attractive deal to a lot of potential switchers. Specs aren't everything to alot of people - its the Apps too! Apple just needs to get into the ballpark performance-wise against the Intel and AMD with their consumer models to start shifting units.

A 1.4ghz iBox/iCube wouldn't surprise me and would be very welcome and I'd love people to have macs like that for non work use.

[thies]

the same reason why people needed machines running at 500MHz with people like you complaining noone would need that power: because some people tend to think ahead and won't buy a new machine next year already. (ok, if you bought a G4 a while ago you are ****ed up the arse anyway now).
And I was criticising the price of the whole range. Even the lowend models are alwas ridiculously overpriced. Each model compared to a Dell box of similr features, wqhich a switcher will compare a mac to, is vastly overpriced, which is why Apple is **** out of luck with increasing it's marketshare in a significant manner.

[h'biki]

Originally posted by thies
Who buys a handicapped iBox when it is meant for switchers who measure price/performance by specs and then see that a Dell box offers more for less? Your argumentation doesn't hold up. 20% pricecut on the G5 lowend Powermac compared to the G4 and they still make a decent profit whilke actually being competitive.

NB: I am referring generally to the high end of the powermac line and specifically to the dual 2ghz. Its price may go up a bit relative to the 1.4ghz G4. That's fine, as far as I'm concerned, cause its not really marketed at consumer users. Nor should it be. Apple does need a real high-end flag ship to regain its ground in design and print and post and audio. It has nothing to compete hardware wise with a BOXX. Sure a BOXX PC costs like $10-20K... but for these people cost isn't a hurdle. I am hoping apple eventually introduces a killer Shake machine that's quad 970 (and then goes to quad multicore 980). They won't ship that many of, but hey, flagships are there to be seen!

The middle PM G5 (1.8) is likely to stay the same price - or go a touch up. The bottom PM G5 (1.6) is likely to drop a little (hopefully), if not it'll stay equal.

Then they'll introduce a 1.4 iBox (or MacBox). It will take a hit on the fancy additions like PCI-X but it'll sell for less than the PM G5. It'll be the switcher machine. Buy this for this price (which will be relatively competitive with dell - mb a $100 difference?) and you'll get a good machine with iLife and you can use your old PC monitor!

Who knows. the iBox is purely speculation on my part, but I think everyone is pretty damn sure Apple needs an entry level tower including Apple. Apple will never compete price/perfoormance wise with the crap-no-brand-boxes but they can compete with HP/Shuttle etc. if they desire. I don't think they'll ever get as cheap as dell but they can come reasonably close and offer a better user experience.

[gwuMACaddict]

Originally posted by h'biki
they may increase the price of the powermac, especially at the top end, because they can. for the people that a dual 2ghz PPC970 is really aimed at (ie people who actually use it for, like, work rather than dick measuring) a few hundred bucks here and there is nothing when compared to the time and money you'll save with a faster machine.


i totally agree. and everyone who keeps complaining about the price of a decent apple- buy an emac and strap some extra ram inside. who cares what it looks like- it works. and will still dance circles around a pc.

that said... i DO plan to use my new dual 2ghz ppc970 for dick measuring ;) and folding... lots of folding. :D

[h'biki]

Originally posted by thies
the same reason why people needed machines running at 500MHz with people like you complaining noone would need that power:

Who does need that power? My Centris 650 is still in use and it runs at (IIRC) 50mhz. Surfs the web (tho no multimedia) and gets e-mail as good as it ever did.

You can get a 486 laptop for like $25, put a 8011a wireless card in it, run linux on it, and have a cheap & fast WiFi internet machine.

What does the average consumer do with their PC?

Surf the web. Check e-mail. Word process. Mp3s. Digital Photos.

With the exception of the last two, I could do the first three on my SE back in 1988.

A G3 iMac is quite adequate for the other two. It's not the snappiest around, but for the price you can buy one on the second hand market for, its price/performance/UTILITY ratio is actually really great.


And I was criticising the price of the whole range. Even the lowend models are alwas ridiculously overpriced. Each model compared to a Dell box of similr features, wqhich a switcher will compare a mac to, is vastly overpriced, which is why Apple is **** out of luck with increasing it's marketshare in a significant manner.

You've forgotten another important part of the equation: "utility" (which I use to describe usefulness, productivity and ease of use).

If Apple gets in the ballpark of the Dell box with a decently powered machine, then it wil get switchers that see the Mac as machine with greater utility for them and one that they can afford.

A lot of potential switches I know are prepared to pay a premium for Apple's 'utility' but only to a certain extent. Apple needs to find that certain extgent.l They will never compete with Dells, but if they find out how much more the average joe is prepared to pay for the mac-experience then they will ship units.

[h'biki]

Originally posted by gwuMACaddict
that said... i DO plan to use my new dual 2ghz ppc970 for dick measuring ;) and folding... lots of folding. :D

Who wouldn't use it for dick measuring!

We all know that the ladies prefer mac users - or their macs at least.

(It really is the secret weapon that Apple needs to capitalise on to get the linux crowd: buy a mac. get laid.)

[wizard]

Well lets look at it this way I'm a consumer, one that has to limit his hardware purchases to every few years. To that end I have to make sure that the dollars invested will leave me in good shape for a few years (barring upgrades like ram). Second; SMP hardware is the future of computing, if Apple reserves this for their high end then they obviously don't understand the market.

One little purchase Like a Nikon D100, can quickly take a machine that you thought was good enough and put it into the realm of antique hardware. Image processing is one consumer applicaiton that benefits greatly form CPU performance and addressable memory. Sure you can get by with lesser hardware but the difference in performance can often be 10 to a 100 times worst.

Your comment about the P4 is interesting, but you have to realize that at introduction the P4 was an extremely poor performer and only beat out the p3 due to a significant increase in clock rate. The reality is that for many people the p4 is a poor performer and I'm talking consumers here. The 970, from all appearances, is just going to nudge out the P4 so yes a single processor 970 most likely will not meet the demands of some consumers.

I understand the issue with financing personal purchase of PC hardware. It is a problem for many of us. The reality is though that you are doing yourself more harm in the pocketbook by buying low end. It is much better to get the hardware that will be viable for at least a couple of years.

Thanks
Dave



I ask what the hell kind of consumer needs a dual 2ghz 970?

(I actually often think the same about 3ghz P4s. What the hell kind of consumer needs a 3ghz P4? All you're going to do on it is download porn, rip DIVXs and play crap games)

They don't need one. Its a luxury. I'd love to be able to afford one for my personal use but I'm not going to be able to and thats fine, cause I don't need it.

[richie]

Ok:

Apple stays in business through relatively good margins on a relatively small market.

- To drop the price and remain profitable, they would need to increase volume sales dramatically.

- There is no guarantee that a $500, whatever, price-drop would bring in the appropriate new market to compensate for this. I have no idea if that $500 is even close to a reasonable drop, but if I must, I will find all these figures and show what increased volume Apple would need if they cut margins by whatever amount. [nb: I will not actually do this, I am lazy :P]

- People who endlessly say they'd buy a mac if only it were cheaper will *always* complain about that, since building a box from scratch will always be cheaper than what Apple can put together. So there is not a huge, untapped market there.

- The market (us) will take the price range that Apple currently uses, evidenced by Apple's survival.

- It is technically possible for Apple to drastically cut margins in an attempt to re-take a great deal of market-share. I can't see that working in any short or mdeium term plan, simply because of entrenched reservations about Apple by a large part of the community, so despite cash reserves, this would hit Apple bad, and in the end would result in a slightly increased marketshare, depleted cash, and people still complaining that "MACs aer to expensive!@!@!@".

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by h'biki
Who knows. the iBox is purely speculation on my part, but I think everyone is pretty damn sure Apple needs an entry level tower including Apple.Here's the thing. The average individual consumer generally does not upgrade his or her computer. This is generally true, not universally true. The average consumer buys a computer like a television: take it home, plop it down in the corner, and forget about it. What you're talking about is not compatible with that approach. You're talking about a computer with lots of cables and moving parts that requires more space and an external monitor and so forth and so on. That's not generally what the average consumer wants.

So poof. The business case for a low-end modular configuration just disappeared.

Who buys inexpensive modular computers? Hobbyists, mostly. People who like sticking a new hard drive into their computers, or a new graphics card, or what have you. These people were Apple's target market in the early 1980's; heck, they were Apple's only market. This is no longer true. Now Apple's target markets are creative professionals (they own that market) and individual consumers (they are gaining mindshare and marketshare in that market). Neither of these markets would be well served by a low-end modular offering.

There are always going to be people who will not pay any more for a computer than their perceived value of the sum of the component parts. These are the "I can build it myself for less than that!" people. Apple does not care to cater to these people; Apple's goals are orthagonal to those people's goals.

This is neither good nor bad; it just is.

(Oh, and all this talk about what Apple needs to do to stay in business? Drop it, okay? I don't want to take the time to go get my 10-K's out of the basement right now, but Apple has posted a profit for something like 18 of the last 20 quarters. They're doing just fine. If Apple merely keeps doing what they've been doing since about 1997, they're going to continue to be around for a long, long time.)

[hayesk]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Who here thinks that we won't get anything tomorrow but a preview of 10.3 and all the updates will be held until the create conference. You know the keynote that was canceled and is now back on.

Count me as another one. My prediction a lot of "screw this! I'm gettin' a Dell"-type whining all over the Internet tomorrow.

[SPUY767]

Did anyone else see the application in the panther screens that looked like a new DVD player? Perhaps with Hardware acceleration? I'm not sure, but it looks awful suspicious.

[MacBandit]

The last time I compared a Mac to a PC feature for feature Dell and IBM both were within $200 of the same price as a PowerMac. I'm sorry but overpriced Macs is a myth unless you are building your own PC which can't rightly be compared as you are putting your own labor into it which isn't being added into the cost on top of you don't have system warranty o any support.

[wizard]

Exactly; and just where are PowerMac sales right now???? The market has spoken, its saying clearly that PowerMacs are not worth the extra cash by any measure. By market I mean both professional and consumer.

Apple is doing nicely but it has little to do with the sales of PowerMacs. The 970 will provide and intermittant boost due to pent up demand, but don't expect fantastic sales over the long haul if they are over priced.

Dave


- The market (us) will take the price range that Apple currently uses, evidenced by Apple's survival.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by MacBandit
The last time I compared a Mac to a PC feature for feature Dell and IBM both were within $200 of the same price as a PowerMac.I have found that to be true as well. The problem is in order to make a real apples-to-apples comparison, you have to really load down the PC.

? dual processors
? 802.11g or at least b (do any PC's even have built-in wireless antennas? not notebooks, but desksides?)
? FireWire 800, or at least 400
? Bluetooth
? DVD writer

And even then, there's the software to consider. What's iTunes' equivalent on the PC? Is it free, or do you have to buy it? Remember, iTunes isn't just a player; it's a music library manager. What's iPhoto's equivalent? What's iMovie's equivalent? These things have to be taken into consideration.

If you want all of these things, a Power Mac is definitely the better buy. It will cost less (in money, probably, and in time+money, definitely) and work better. If you don't care about some or all of these things, you can get a PC that satisfies your checklist for less. If you can live with the user experience, that's what you should do. Apple is not now, nor has it ever been, an "all things to all people" company.

[J@ffa]

Originally posted by daHun
Well, I've seen the invitation on a friend's desk. - It's nicely designed, square, a folded card (4 pages). It contains absolutely no hints on anything hardware/software. Just a mention of the keynote broadcast and a product showcase + a party afterwards.

If anything, it's the sheer scenario that indicates big news, but not the information itself...

Yeah. I kinda doubt Steve Jobs is going to walk on stage, and say "Here's Panther, guys! Look, I made everything brushed metal! And there's a little rotating button that lights up red green and yellow when you click it! Thankyou, and goodnight!" and then expect people to go and party about that.

[MasterX (OSiX)]

People today are weird. Apple used to have a market plan like this:
Ultimate performance for what we do (which was then simply design and not much else)
Easiest to use
Best for education.

Then the G4 got blown away in the Ghz race and prices had to be cut on high end machines.

Then Dell cut into school sales and prices had to be cut.

Then XP came out and Windows was better looking and overall easier to use.

Back before the iMac came out (which marked the change of the Apple Macintosh as a computer for 'the rest of us', if more expensive) when you saw a G3 PowerMac in a graphics lab somewhere you almost ****e you pants, they were reveared darn it. Once people started owning high end PowerMacs they lost their allure, as well as $1499 PCs which can run equally as fast. I predict that Apple plans to replace their crown with the 970, offering a system which YOU CANT AFFORD and APPLE DOESNT CARE, just like it should be. crap about how its overpriced all you want while me and my commercial art and pro DV buddies laugh at you because we use the machine to make money and love running FCP4 so fast it makes Wintel users on Premiere heads' spin.

In reply to an earlier post, with post prod houses switching to windows rending, this is why Apple is ferverent in their suport for Real Time rendering in software and with hardware cards, and FCP4's improved support for EDLs, etc. Keep a Mac in the editing room where it belongs, but if you must, export to something more expesive to render or whatever.

[wizard]

Well this I have to disagree with. From IBM or Dell you will get a feature rich machine. From Apple you get an outdated processor and (barring firewire) outdated ports. Genrally the machines I see advertised by these and other PC manufactures also come with 2 to 3 times the ram and a bigger harddrive.

I've never been able to walk into a CompUSA and find Apple hardware anywhere near equal PC (from the big manufactures) hardware price wise. I'm talking a $500 to $1000 dollar difference.

Thanks
Dave


The last time I compared a Mac to a PC feature for feature Dell and IBM both were within $200 of the same price as a PowerMac. I'm sorry but overpriced Macs is a myth unless you are building your own PC which can't rightly be compared as you are putting your own labor into it which isn't being added into the cost on top of you don't have system warranty o any support.

[jimthorn]

Originally posted by SPUY767
Did anyone else see the application in the panther screens that looked like a new DVD player? Perhaps with Hardware acceleration? I'm not sure, but it looks awful suspicious.

I sure hope it's new and improved. I don't own an actual television, and when I watch a DVD, it's on my Mac. And sometimes DVD Player chokes. Something faster and more stable would be nice.

[Brent Turbo]

BMWs are overpriced crap. You're an ass if you buy one, because you can get a Yugo for less than 1/10th the cost!

Here's a funny notion: people should be allowed to buy what they want, for whatever reasons they want to buy it. Why is does this strange need to tell others what to buy only occur in the computer world? Who cares?? They're just computers and they're infinitely less important than friends, family, and a whole lot of other things. They're tools that will be thrown in the trash in a few years.

[hayesk]

Originally posted by thies
And I was criticising the price of the whole range. Even the lowend models are alwas ridiculously overpriced. Each model compared to a Dell box of similr features, wqhich a switcher will compare a mac to, is vastly overpriced, which is why Apple is **** out of luck with increasing it's marketshare in a significant manner.

I love armchair CEOs. Apple tried that in '97 - it didn't go over too well. Lowering the price may increase some sales, but it's not guaranteed.

Apple has a 30% profit margin on PowerMacs, yes. But Apple has to pay for OS development, R&D, marketing, and sales channels for the entire platform. No other computer company has to do the whole thing. If Apple sold as many Macs as Microsoft sells Windows licenses, then you would have a point.

Macs can *never* be a cheap as PCs until they expand there market greatly. Lowering PowerMac prices by a few hundred dollars may give them a few extra percentage points of sales, but not beyond that. It's not a viable long term solution.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by wizard
Exactly; and just where are PowerMac sales right now????Yes. Apple's Power Mac sales have been so dismal that they've been completely unable to drain the channel in advance of the upcoming product announcement.

Oh, wait.

I'm not sure what world you live in, sir, but in the world I inhabit, Apple sells more or less every machine they make. Demand is almost always higher than supply, modulo a few exceptions that prove the rule, like the G4 Cube.

Now, let's ask the larger question. Why are you so enamored with the idea that Apple is somehow failing? Why do you reject, out of hand, the evident fact that Apple is, instead, doing precisely what it means to?

[TMay]

So, Apple drops all of this cool stuff at WWDC. Rumors are for some consumer stuff throughout the rest of the year.

In case we all have forgotten (I bought one of the original mac's within a week of announcement in 1984 so I never will forget!) Macintosh's 20th anniversary is coming up next January.

What could Steve drop on us that would match the impact of the original mac on the industry? A tall order to be sure.

[hayesk]

Originally posted by wizard
Well this I have to disagree with. From IBM or Dell you will get a feature rich machine. From Apple you get an outdated processor and (barring firewire) outdated ports.


What ports are outdated other than USB? USB2 is a crappy protocol for high speed devices anyway and is better served by Firewire.

On PCs you get serial and parallel - those are outdated ports.

Macs give good value. Those sub-$1000 PCs don't. To get them to be useful you have to upgrade the hell out of them.

[Wonder Boy]

Originally posted by h'biki
\ buy a mac. get laid.)

Thanks for the new away message.

[MasterX (OSiX)]

This "vast" and "ridiculous" overpricing of Powermacs isn't as blaring as you think. First of all it's only a few hundred bucks, and in Apple's market that's not a whole lot. You ever wonder why the people cheer so much at Keynotes? They're press, they make 6 figures, to them they can own the whole Apple spectrum, a laptop, desktop, display and iPod and be fine. $500 is crap to them if they get to use a nice interface. That's one. Secondly I think Apple used to make 30% proffit on their Powermacs, but now I'm thinking it's just 30% hardware proffit. Apple's R&D spending is huge. Comparative in size Apple has to spend a lot more, in part because Dell (etc) don't R&D crap. They spend their cash on commercials. Everything they need is provided save sostware and cases. How many millions does it take to make a new ugly case? Not that many. I'm sure they use lots of custom parts, like motherboards or whatever but that's not a lot of work considering they'll be selling 10x more than Apple. Apple knows they sell less product, and for them to keep competative they need to spend more per machine. Don't think cutting costs is going to make Apple make better products. It's the other way around, spend more get more. Maybe not today, but in the future. At which point feel free to buy a mac, I think you'll enjoy it. In conclusion feel free to complain about performance or cost, but not both.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by wizard
Well this I have to disagree with. From IBM or Dell you will get a feature rich machine. From Apple you get an outdated processor and (barring firewire) outdated ports. Genrally the machines I see advertised by these and other PC manufactures also come with 2 to 3 times the ram and a bigger harddrive.

I've never been able to walk into a CompUSA and find Apple hardware anywhere near equal PC (from the big manufactures) hardware price wise. I'm talking a $500 to $1000 dollar difference.

Thanks
Dave

I'm sorry but a Dua 1.42 or 1.25 Mac is very comparable to a P4 machine in the 2.5 to 3GHz range. They aren't grossly oudated as you seem to think. Anything above that will cost as much or more then a PowerMac if you buy it from a reputable company and don't build it yourself anyway. In any case go to Dell or IBM online and configure them to have equal hardware. I haven't done it in the last couple months but as I have said, in the past the difference was as little as $200 and the most it ever was was $500 and to me the OS is worth that much. Microsoft products suck. Hell I'd pay a $1000 more to have the MacOS. My friends have nothing but problems with XP and the other Windows varients and no they aren't idiots they know what they are doing it's just they are like me and are constantly installing and uninstalling software and trying out different things and playing with this and that and bingo crash. I do that on my Mac and keep up with the normal maintenance i.e. permissions repairs etc. and it never crashes.

Also if Macs are so damn slow and such a pain to use why did they use them for the basic preproduction for the Lord of the Rings movies, The Hulk, and about a million other films. It's because the artists find it easier to use and this lets there imagination work because they aren't having to constantly deal with this or that not working.

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by h'biki
The machine isn't marketed at them. Its aimed at professionals for whom the cost isn't that much of an issue.

There aren't that many of these that need to use macs. Most of them can switch to PC if the price is wrong. IOW, they can't price these just for the professionals who don't care about a few hundred more or less. There aren't enough.

Originally posted by h'biki
I ask what the hell kind of consumer needs a dual 2ghz 970?

Ask the thousands of consumers who buy 3 gig p4s for games. Why is your "work" more important than my "games"? Again, get off the horse. Who are you to say what I or any other consumer should do with my Mac?

[MasterX (OSiX)]

Originally posted by hayesk
What ports are outdated other than USB? USB2 is a crappy protocol for high speed devices anyway and is better served by Firewire.

On PCs you get serial and parallel - those are outdated ports.

Macs give good value. Those sub-$1000 PCs don't. To get them to be useful you have to upgrade the hell out of them.

I'd have to agree with this. Granted the sub $1000 PC is going to give you USB2 and serial and parallel and maybe even FireWire. But did it occur to anyone else that when you get a mac running OSX 10.2 OUT OF THE BOX you have an AIM client, Mail program which doesn't suck, web browser (soon to be Safari with 10.3 machines), Photo organization with support for almost every camera, video editing with support for almost every camera, a kick but music jukebox with an online store to buy more music, software for syncing your addressbook, the ability to read Word and Xcel files, calendar app, DVD Player (most macs) and so much more. Well duh PCs do all this, you don't need to tell me that. But it occured to me that when i installed OS9 on a mac, or windows on a PC the first thing i had to do was download about 200MB of apps, with OSX i install photoshop and FCP and i'm done. And don't talk to me about video editing and DVD players on PCs, i get more tech support questions from my friends about those two things than anything else, so don't start. Apparently because there are 20 DVD player apps for windows that makes it harder.

Plus in terms of hardware you will need more ram most of the time, although they're good with HD now. And a lot of those machines dont come with Office in them, saving money on the cost, so that doesn't work to their advantage either.

[wizard]

Man I wish you guys would tell me where you are shopping because this simply isn't the case around here. Lets face it PC's are dirt cheap realtive to and apple. I'm not talking about the $499 pc using yesterdays technology, even though many of them out perform Apples. Comapring current hardware to current hardware apple always looses big time.

The dual porcessor Macs on the market "today" do not out perform most of the single processsor P4 machines. So there is little need for dual processors at the lowend of the PC market. Not to mention also is the lack of OS support for SMP in some versions of Windows. In any event if you really want a dual processor PC they are available, but then there is nothing comparable performance wise from the mac world.

I'm surprised that more people don't see the wireless networking technology as a security risk.

Firewire is quite ocmmon on PC hardware so whats up with that. Same with DVD writers.

Generally I find that the Apple hardware is what you have to load up. Usually you need to add ram and increase disk size before you can compare to contemporary PC's! You also have to compensate for the aged CPU


Please understand that i'm hoping that the new machines eliminate alot of these issues. Hopefully processor peformance will no longer be an issue


I have found that to be true as well. The problem is in order to make a real apples-to-apples comparison, you have to really load down the PC.

? dual processors
? 802.11g or at least b (do any PC's even have built-in wireless antennas? not notebooks, but desksides?)
? FireWire 800, or at least 400
? Bluetooth
? DVD writer

And even then, there's the software to consider. What's iTunes' equivalent on the PC? Is it free, or do you have to buy it? Remember, iTunes isn't just a player; it's a music library manager. What's iPhoto's equivalent? What's iMovie's equivalent? These things have to be taken into consideration.

If you want all of these things, a Power Mac is definitely the better buy. It will cost less (in money, probably, and in time+money, definitely) and work better. If you don't care about some or all of these things, you can get a PC that satisfies your checklist for less. If you can live with the user experience, that's what you should do. Apple is not now, nor has it ever been, an "all things to all people" company.

[MasterX (OSiX)]

Originally posted by soggywulf
There aren't that many of these that need to use macs. Most of them can switch to PC if the price is wrong. IOW, they can't price these just for the professionals who don't care about a few hundred more or less. There aren't enough

Really? Because it's worked for the last 20 years....

[The Grimace]

Kinda off topic, but I noticed something a few moments ago when I erased a CD-RW using Disk Utility. Check out the image, and notice how many bytes are used on the CD-RW: 0,00 (not 0.00). The other disks use a decimal. I bring this up because the authenticity of the pics of Panther was brought into question in part because of something like this in the pic of the Activity Monitor.

Just thought I'd mention it.

(tig)

[copperpipe]

I wonder how many powermacs were sold today? I imagine some completely clueless person probably bought a new powermac somewhere.

Anyway, I for one think it would be way cool if Apple brought back "the cube" as a an iApp computer, not powerful enough for real pro work. Say an 867 G4 w/256 ram or something - like the eMac without the monitor, for like $500. iThink that would be just dandy.

[yzedf]

Originally posted by makkystyle
I think you better start learning how to read financial statements before you start giving advice on how Apple should price it's products. For FY2002 (that's "Full Year" in case you didn't know) apple had only a 1% return on net sales (see apple's 5 year financials here (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=107357&p=irol-reports) ). For FY2001 they had NO return on net sales because they made a loss. I'm not quite sure how reducing profit margins so you can afford to buy a machine would help them. They aren't making a "decent profit" as is much less if they start cutting margins. If you want to rant, rant about something you have an education on.

Getting back on topic, I expect that prices might rise a bit for the mid and higher end machines because as stated in previous posts these are the machines that professionals who really NEED the speed will buy. I still think that they will try and keep the low end at current levels (although, this might not be true if they decide as someone suggested to continue selling one G4 model, like the dual 1.25??). I'm waiting for monday to see if this is worth a graduation present.
Another interesting factoid is that the dollars spent per year is within $1 million between Apple and Dell. Obviously, someone wastes a lot of money (inculuding giving CEO 1/4 of profits as salary/bonus) when compared to the number of units sold per year. :rolleyes:

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by wizard
Man I wish you guys would tell me where you are shopping because this simply isn't the case around here. Lets face it PC's are dirt cheap realtive to and apple. I'm not talking about the $499 pc using yesterdays technology, even though many of them out perform Apples. Comapring current hardware to current hardware apple always looses big time.

The dual porcessor Macs on the market "today" do not out perform most of the single processsor P4 machines. So there is little need for dual processors at the lowend of the PC market. Not to mention also is the lack of OS support for SMP in some versions of Windows. In any event if you really want a dual processor PC they are available, but then there is nothing comparable performance wise from the mac world.

I'm surprised that more people don't see the wireless networking technology as a security risk.

Firewire is quite ocmmon on PC hardware so whats up with that. Same with DVD writers.

Generally I find that the Apple hardware is what you have to load up. Usually you need to add ram and increase disk size before you can compare to contemporary PC's! You also have to compensate for the aged CPU


Please understand that i'm hoping that the new machines eliminate alot of these issues. Hopefully processor peformance will no longer be an issue

I'm sorry but your statement that the high end dual macs don't keep up with even most of the single P4s is totally wrong. It may be the case for a P4 of 2GHz or higher when running one program. Try running 10 programs at once and come back to me and let me know how you did. I don't notice a speed drop at all on my dual mac. I know from experience that a Dual Mac can trounce even P4 at 3GHz if given a multitasking situation. I had a friend bring his PC over and we ran the tests side by side. Burn a DVD, convert a video file, play a movie and play QuakeIII (this was a year ago). Guess what my poor old Dual/1 GHz machine was getting higher frame rates in Quake then his P4 2.8 when running all those tasks. That is just one example of the tests we did. We also ran some simple ones such as web browser email client, Music player, and movie player all at once and guess what his P4 got jerky in movies and my Mac played through. Benchmarks never show the real world possibilities of a machine wether it be computer or car or anything inbetween. If you choose to live your life by a bunch of lab numbers more power to you.

Also in 6 months when I haven't had a crash and haven't had to do a reinstall because my OS isn't slowing down I think I have saved time. Remember downtime is what kills a project delivery date not slow computers.

Also you ask where we have been shopping but I have said twice before where I have been shopping check Dell.com and IBM online.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by TMay
What could Steve drop on us that would match the impact of the original mac on the industry? A tall order to be sure. The iMac. But he already did that.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
The iMac. But he already did that.

The original iMac yes. Though in a way it was just a reintroduction of the Mac to the worl. It had a very similar form and function as the original Mac. I mean they are both all in one CRT computers with ease of use as the key priority. Also Macs had fallen out of the publics minds so again it was just like the first introduction all over again. Nothing will ever actually rival 1984.

[astrocity20]

Apple definently needs something on the low end market to compete with the PCs but at the same time it has to be comparable in speed and performance for the price.

As for people who would need 2ghz duals or a Pentium 4... most likely a consumer would need it to play games (whether that be Quake 3 at 3000fps or future games at at least 60 fps) and the fact that they don't want to upgrade, otherwise its just for porn usage lol.

[MasterX (OSiX)]

Originally posted by MacBandit
The original iMac yes. Though in a way it was just a reintroduction of the Mac to the worl. It had a very similar form and function as the original Mac. I mean they are both all in one CRT computers with ease of use as the key priority. Also Macs had fallen out of the publics minds so again it was just like the first introduction all over again. Nothing will ever actually rival 1984.

Unless 1984 has been Steve's personal goal to beat since 1984, with 1998 being a close second. Let's hypothesize he started a project designed for performance to be the top priority and they called this project the PM970 :D

[wizard]

Yes. Apple's Power Mac sales have been so dismal that they've been completely unable to drain the channel in advance of the upcoming product announcement.

Oh, wait.

I'm not sure what world you live in, sir, but in the world I inhabit, Apple sells more or less every machine they make. Demand is almost always higher than supply, modulo a few exceptions that prove the rule, like the G4 Cube.


Well yes they do the question is, when in comes to PowerMacs are they selling more of them than in the past. The answer is NO! I think you know this but probally have issues admitting to reality. Its not like the current sales numbers are a big secret. The fact that they sell ever unit they make is more a sign of good management than it is robust sales.





Now, let's ask the larger question. Why are you so enamored with the idea that Apple is somehow failing? Why do you reject, out of hand, the evident fact that Apple is, instead, doing precisely what it means to?

When did I ever say Apple was failing. The PowerMac line as it is today isn't doing the corporation any favors, but that doesn't mean that apple is failing. Please don't attribut things I have not said to me!

If Apple can not change how it approaches the market with the PowerMac I'm certain that the hardware will disappear. Apple as corporation is to large to carry a product that does not contribute to the bottom line. Frankly we will see 6 months to a year after the 970's come on the market, if apple has a viable marketing plan.

Thanks
dave

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by astrocity20
Apple definently needs something on the low end market to compete with the PCs but at the same time it has to be comparable in speed and performance for the price.

As for people who would need 2ghz duals or a Pentium 4... most likely a consumer would need it to play games (whether that be Quake 3 at 3000fps or future games at at least 60 fps) and the fact that they don't want to upgrade, otherwise its just for porn usage lol.

Agreed. I think a headless eMac 970 would be the perfect answer if they sold it for about $600 which I don't fine too unreasonable. Also think about most gamers that buy the highest end machines. They pay $4,000 plus for the best of the best. Yes you can build something similar for cheaper but you would never get the customer support or the upgrade policy like you do through the high end companies. No Macs don't have a upgrade policy but they sure do hold there price well.

[yzedf]

Originally posted by hayesk
What ports are outdated other than USB? USB2 is a crappy protocol for high speed devices anyway and is better served by Firewire.

On PCs you get serial and parallel - those are outdated ports.

Macs give good value. Those sub-$1000 PCs don't. To get them to be useful you have to upgrade the hell out of them.
To use the Mac argument:

Outdated doesn't equal bad or useless.

:rolleyes:

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by wizard
The dual porcessor Macs on the market "today" do not out perform most of the single processsor P4 machines.For interactive use, a dual-processor machine will ALWAYS outperform a single processor machine barring drastic differences in basic capabilities. This has to do with the nature of modern operating systems. They're doing lots of things at once. A dual-processor computer can do two things at once. Literally, at the same slice of time a dual-processor computer is doing two things, while a single-processor computer is doing only one thing. A twice-as-fast single-processor computer might be capable on paper of doing the same work in the same time as a dual-processor computer, but in practice this isn't true. Context switching (going from one task to another) takes time, and worse is results in a cache flush. Interactively using a single-processor computer effectively nullifies the benefit of your caches, because you're constantly telling the computer to stop doing this and do that instead. The caches are always been missed. On a dual-processor machine, however, a process will tend to "stick" to a given processor (this is called "processor affinity") as long as it can to take advantage of the nice, full caches on that processor. You won't be prompting a cache flush every time you hold down the mouse button.

It all depends on your definition of "perform." For an interactive computer, a desktop or a laptop, the correct definition of "perform" is centered around latency. How long does the user have to wait for a given task to complete? (We're talking micro-tasks here, like switching applications or pulling down a menu.) Looking at it in terms of simple instructions-per-second is the wrong approach.

I'm surprised that more people don't see the wireless networking technology as a security risk.A feature of the hardware cannot be a security risk. That's like calling an IDE port a security risk, because in theory somebody could steal your hard drive.

Firewire is quite ocmmon on PC hardware so whats up with that.Please point me to a PC with a six-pin FireWire 400 port on the motherboard. (This should not be a tall order. It's been years. I can't imagine they're not out there.) Now please point me to a PC with a 9-pin FireWire 800 connector on the motherboard. (Not quite so easy, huh?)

Hopefully processor peformance will no longer be an issueIt never has been.

[nickgold]

It's funny how many people try to compare Macs to "$499 PCs which outperform them." I'm sorry, every PC I know of uses Windows as the OS, or maybe Linux -- let's see, either total Big Brother crap, or total DIY geekfest.

IMO, being able to use OS X (which has not crashed on me in like a year or something?) makes EVERY Mac incomparable to a crappy PC. Not to mention we get cool stuff like the iTunes Music Store which Windows users have to wait months and months for. Not to mention iMovie, etc.

I think one day some of the Mac zealots on this site will realize that half the posters are Windows-lovin' trolls who just come on here to give us a hard time, and are best left COMPLETELY IGNORED. What real Mac user do you know who would come on here and say a $499 Dell comapres to ANY Mac made in the past 5 years? Please.

[rhunter007]

Originally posted by MacBandit
My friends have nothing but problems with XP and the other Windows varients and no they aren't idiots they know what they are doing it's just they are like me and are constantly installing and uninstalling software and trying out different things and playing with this and that and bingo crash.

This is the one constant that seems to hold with Macs versus Windows machines. Even with XP: my friend has this sweet box he made, super fast, overclocked, florescent see thru, and Premiere just crashes up the wazoo. And he had all this trouble with his graphics card not working with certain games. It's a great computer, except it has all these problems.

I have problems with my Mac too. But they aren't really big deals: Safari crashes more then I'd like (but a: it's still a beta, and b: it certainly doesn't take down the whole system); The other day when I plugged in my headphones I found that sound only game from one ear. I thought my headphone jack was broken until I went into the sound control panel (yes, I still call it the control panel) and found that my balance was shifted all the way to the right (or left, I forget). ...you can stop reading right now, I'm rambling about nothing...so I slid it to the middle and it worked. here's the interesting side note: the other day I brought my ibook to this hotel room for a friend's bachelor party so we could have music and watch dvds (although it's apparently possible to output a laptop screen to a tv on a pc, I've never seen it done...yet it's done all the time by me and other people I know with mac laptops.) but the tv setup in the room had only one sound input, not two. So I plugged the red one in and it sounded fine. But I'm wondering now, if somehow the OS *knew* that I was only outputing to one channel and shifted the balance for me. is that possible? if so, that's really cool (except it should have reverted when I unplugged it). I suppose it's possible that one of the other people there knew enough to switch the balance, but I think that's unlikely.

anyway, I lost whatever point I was trying to make. Macs seem to work pretty easily with minimal hassel. And I think this is because a: they have a superior OS, b: hardware done by the os company, and c: the computers, although more expensive, come standard with stuff Apple knows is good and *the future* but that people might not buy trying to save a few bucks. For example, I might not have bought my wireless card if apple didn't include an awesome antennae in my laptop screen. All the laptop PC users I know are now realizing that wireless is awesome but they have to have some lame pc card that sticks out an inch on the side of their machine. And wireless is seriously the best thing ever. Same with firewire.

Sorry, must have the pre-keynote jitters.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by nickgold
I think one day some of the Mac zealots on this site will realize that half the posters are Windows-lovin' trolls who just come on here to give us a hard time, and are best left COMPLETELY IGNORED. What real Mac user do you know who would come on here and say a $499 Dell comapres to ANY Mac made in the past 5 years? Please.

True I have never heard my friends with web development and servers businesses claim that a $500 PC could come close to a Mac in overall experience. We do on the other hand once and a while discuss a comparison of PowerMacs to high end P4s and AMDs. At this point yes the best of the best in both categories does slightly outweigh the PowerMacs but the difference is so slight that in real world experience even my friends say it's a wash.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by wizard
Well yes they do the question is, when in comes to PowerMacs are they selling more of them than in the past. The answer is NO!So? Growth is fine and dandy, but all that counts is profitability. As long as the company remains profitable, sufficiently profitable to continue doing business in the way that they want to do business, they are effectively above criticism. They may not be doing things the way you would wish they could be done, but they are doing things exactly right.When did I ever say Apple was failing.Right here: :)If Apple can not change how it approaches the market with the PowerMac I'm certain that the hardware will disappear.Predictions of doom and gloom rarely come to pass. In this case, most certainly not.

[Squire]

Originally posted by makkystyle
I think you better start learning how to read financial statements before you start giving advice on how Apple should price it's products. For FY2002 (that's "Full Year" in case you didn't know) apple had only a 1% return on net sales (see apple's 5 year financials here (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=107357&p=irol-reports) ). For FY2001 they had NO return on net sales because they made a loss. I'm not quite sure how reducing profit margins so you can afford to buy a machine would help them. They aren't making a "decent profit" as is much less if they start cutting margins. If you want to rant, rant about something you have an education on.

Getting back on topic, I expect that prices might rise a bit for the mid and higher end machines because as stated in previous posts these are the machines that professionals who really NEED the speed will buy. I still think that they will try and keep the low end at current levels (although, this might not be true if they decide as someone suggested to continue selling one G4 model, like the dual 1.25??). I'm waiting for monday to see if this is worth a graduation present.

Doesn't "FY" mean FISCAL Year? (I'm not trying to be a smart-ass...it's a real question.)

And I believe the old supply vs. demand argument will enter into the pricing equation. If these 970s are as hot as everybody expects, Apple won't be able to make enough of them, even at the higher price.

I think...

Squire

[Edit: I guess several people above have answered the "FY" question. I should have read the whole thread.]

[zach]

I'm 13 years old. Despite the fact that I have only had enough cash to buy my own mac once in my life, (my bar mitzvah :D ) I would much rather save 2 years for a new mac than buy a $500 Dell. Even if a mac is outdated, it is a great computer for word processing, email, web browsing, and even to an extent games. I have a Performa running OS 9 at 66 MHz, and I detect no noticeable difference while typing, recieving email, and playing Escape Velocity (people at Ambrosia are god :D ) between it and my iBook 700 MHz.

And for people who wonder why anyone would ever need a Dual 2 GHz, people do happen to do graphics editing and video editing on computers. Oh, I forgot. You use a PC, so you have never seen it done on one. :p

Seriously, though, some people could use a Dual 2 GHz 970 and still want more power.

Just take other people into mind before you post.

[matznentosh]

Originally posted by wizard
[b]
The fact that they sell ever unit they make is more a sign of good management than it is robust sales.



Yes, unfortunately profits are down, number of units sold is down, and market share is down. Apple is genuinely not even holding its own any more. I know people have been predicting Apple's demise for years, but if this trend continues, an end will be unavoidable.

Hopefully improved models will result in improved sales to media and artist people, and to scientists (who are already beginning to be interested because of UNIX).

[the future]

Originally posted by nickgold
I'm sorry, every PC I know of uses Windows as the OS, or maybe Linux -- let's see, either total Big Brother crap, or total DIY geekfest. IMO, being able to use OS X (which has not crashed on me in like a year or something?) makes EVERY Mac incomparable to a crappy PC.

Absolutely! Hell, even just LOOKING at my TiBook and the OSX desktop gives me more joy than any Windows/Linux PC ever could.

[Squire]

Originally posted by gwuMACaddict
that said... i DO plan to use my new dual 2ghz ppc970 for dick measuring ;) and folding... lots of folding. :D

Gut-wrenching laughter. (Am I allowed to just say that? No? Okay.)

And...uh...I wish I could take the G4 chip out of my...uh...iMac and put a 970 in. That would be cool.

Seriously, though...Question: Is it very easy to replace RAM in an iMac?

Squire

[MasterX (OSiX)]

Every iMac except the Rev A (my 1st personal mac) that was a brual experience. For a LCD iMac you open the bottom and it's a snap (literally)

[beatle888]

Originally posted by Kool
Specs from GIF FAKE!!!

The Dutch website MacFreak (http://www.macfreak.org/cgi/forums/readnews.cgi?action=newspage&newscount=29#1056117763) is reporting that the specs on the GIF were fake. The author of the website could confirm this thru several contacts from within Apple itself.

It seems that someone form an external bureau that Apple has worked with before still had access to the Akamai server. That way he could upload the gif without Apple knowing about it.

Sorry folks, don't believe these specs yet...

when did you arrive? june 2003 yesterday? give me a break.

[Squire]

Originally posted by MacBandit
The last time I compared a Mac to a PC feature for feature Dell and IBM both were within $200 of the same price as a PowerMac. I'm sorry but overpriced Macs is a myth unless you are building your own PC which can't rightly be compared as you are putting your own labor into it which isn't being added into the cost on top of you don't have system warranty o any support.

Agree 100%.

When I told people I was going to buy a Mac for X dollars, most people gasped. I aked them to price a Sony with an 80 gig HD, 17" widescreen LCD, CD-R/RW drive, DVD-R drive, AND software...not much difference. I think they were within 200 bucks of one another.

Squire

[shadowfax]

boy, macBandit, i thought you would know better to get into one of those PC v. Mac arguments in the news forum :p

this stuff is all rather fuzzy, i think, talking about performances and comparisons and such to get you to value/price comparisons. careful guys.

[daedelgt]

Is it just me or is anyone else frightened by a 13 year old who types/speaks like this? ;) Reminds me a lot of myself.

Originally posted by zap23
I'm 13 years old. Despite the fact that I have only had enough cash to buy my own mac once in my life, (my bar mitzvah :D ) I would much rather save 2 years for a new mac than buy a $500 Dell. Even if a mac is outdated, it is a great computer for word processing, email, web browsing, and even to an extent games. I have a Performa running OS 9 at 66 MHz, and I detect no noticeable difference while typing, recieving email, and playing Escape Velocity (people at Ambrosia are god :D ) between it and my iBook 700 MHz.

And for people who wonder why anyone would ever need a Dual 2 GHz, people do happen to do graphics editing and video editing on computers. Oh, I forgot. You use a PC, so you have never seen it done on one. :p

Seriously, though, some people could use a Dual 2 GHz 970 and still want more power.

Just take other people into mind before you post.

[mccoma]

Originally posted by rhunter007
anyway, I lost whatever point I was trying to make.

Nope, you made the point quite nicely. Macs (for the most part) just work and Mac users are used to dealing with the task at hand. PC's generally have other issues going on.

[Phinius]

The focus of the upcoming WWDC will be the 970 and Panther, but the chip improvements that will arrive from Motorola in the third quarter of this year will likely be very interesting also. A Siliconstategies.com article (http:www.siliconstrategies.com/story/OEG20030602S0003) mentions that Motorola was able to get up to a 20% boost in speed from adding a low-k dielectric to the current 7455 G4 chips. Motorola states that the company has been delivering products with low-k for over a quarter of a year on the .18-micron process. If you backtrack 3 months from the June 2nd date of the article that puts the date of the first low-k dielectric chips at the end of January or beginning of February. It just so happens that Apple introduced the 1.42 GHz Power Macs on January 28, 2003. Apple's previous fastest Power Mac processor was running at 1.25 GHz and if you add in a 20% boost from a low-k dielectric coating that puts it at about 1.5 GHz. Hmmm.... it looks very likely that the low-k dieletric is currently being used only in the topend 7455 G4s.

Motorola has also stated that the 1GHz G4, made on the smaller .13-micron process, will use less than 10 watts. That is less than half of the 21.3 watt usage for the current 1 GHz 7455 G4.

A 1.3 GHz 7457 will likely use slightly less watts than a 1 GHz 7455. If Motorola adds a low-k dielectric to the 1.3 GHz 7457, that would give about a 20% speed boost to about 1.560 GHz, with very little increase in power use.

Since IBM has already stated that the 970 at 1.2 GHz will use about 17 watts and a 7457 at 1.5 GHz will use about the same amount of power, then its very likely that Apple will choose to use the 7457 G4 in all of the Mac notebooks. That will probably change when IBM moves the 9XX chips to a smaller .090-micron process and the 9XX power use of the 2GHz processors drops dramatically. Seeing how the .090-micron 9XX chips will likely be based on the Power5 processors and IBM has stated that a Power5 computer will run up to 4X faster than a Power4 computer, then Apple will probably have the worlds fastest notebook and desktop computers in the PowerBooks and Power Macs by the end of 2004.

[Squire]

Originally posted by MasterX (OSiX)
Every iMac except the Rev A (my 1st personal mac) that was a brual experience. For a LCD iMac you open the bottom and it's a snap (literally)

Thanks.

Squire

[montefuego]

This price fixation amazes me. I remember paying $4000 for a Zenith laptop that weighed over 10 pounds, was running word perfect on a teeny, lo-con black and white screen. Why do computer users ignore issues like fit and finish, elegant design (both hardware and software) and expect to pay NOTHING EXTRA for these qualities, yet admire (and perhaps purchase) a BMW or Lexus or the like without hesitating, spending 10's of thousands more for a car that really does 'exactly' what a neon or focus does, just not as elegantly. Yet somehow an elegant computer like Apple's, that might cost $300 more, is a CRIME AGAINST NATURE. What is this cheap mentality? The only place that I feel this issue has ANY legitimacy is for those who really don't have the money for anything but the lower priced machines, like our bar mitzvah boy here, and many students. There, it would be nice if Apple had a machine that was just okay, that could compete with the $500 or $600 dollar windows machines. Other than that situation, this carping about price seems to me to be wanting to have your cake and eat it too. ELEGANCE has VALUE. Why should computers be different than every other purchase we make?

[newnomad]

All these rumors about the ‘cosmetic’ (read; only small changes) redesign of the current G4 case.... Do not underestimate Jonathan's team; Expect a totally redesigned case (from scratch form wise), a new typology (remember the new Imac versus the previous) Bear in mind that these new PMs will have to last a couple of generations, and so must be ahead into the future....

I tend to think different... This is what I expect;

An elongated upside down cube architecture; sized half the height of current G4’s. This means all access from the top; slide in cards, harddrives (Xserve hot swap,...) RAM and plug in cables and insert disks/media. This facilitate accessibility being a digital hub, and upgradeability being a pro machine.

Case out of single part aluminum (extruded) with 2 vertical gaps back (cables guide from the top to the bottom) and front (speaker, switches some ports). ‘Floating’ for forced convection cooling (air in through gap with bottom and surface standing on, air out through gap between top panel and case) thus no visible and disturbing ‘air holes’. Also no visible plugs;the cable/cards part covered with a double hinged (hinge/slide backward) lid keeping things organized. So will the 2 DVD (one read/one super) have a top loading mechanism (like in the rega planet cd player http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm). The standard cd trays are terrible visualy and much slower in use; time for a step forward. I Know this will mean no 3rd party discdrives, but apple’s will be there as a feature bonus adding extra value (at low manufacture cost; just like LCD’s) and thus very few will need 3rd party drives. Apple has been using this ‘added superdrive value’ marketing for a while now and will continue this path.
And of course top it of with a pull out central handle (reminiscent of the cube).



Jiri

[Frobozz]

Originally posted by spiff
lets hope for the powerbooks. though, i don't believe it. i think it's better to reduce our expectations a bit.

It makes perfect sense for 1.2 and 1.4 970's to be used in iMac revisions.

[montefuego]

What do you think of the following thoughts:
1. Demo of FCP4 putting entire video sequence into 6 gigs of RAM and rendering it almost instantly.
2. Reveal that Quark is written in 64 bit, and that is why it could not be released until this week.
3. Reveal that IBM will now offer OSX server as an option on their BLADE SERVERS and this will be the beginning of a joint effort to TAKE BACK THE SPACE FROM MICROSOFT, with IBM servicing the very high end and OSX server filling in the lower levels all the way to the desktop.
4. Oracle runs in OSX in 64 bit, Larry Ellison makes surprise visit. Again, part of a new alliance against Microsoft.
5. In order to work better as an all-around server, OSX now has a reduced version that runs under a server on INTEL hardware.

What do you think?

[Sonofhaig]

Originally posted by zap23
I'm 13 years old. Despite the fact that I have only had enough cash to buy my own mac once in my life, (my bar mitzvah :D ) I would much rather save 2 years for a new mac than buy a $500 Dell. Even if a mac is outdated, it is a great computer for word processing, email, web browsing, and even to an extent games. I have a Performa running OS 9 at 66 MHz, and I detect no noticeable difference while typing, recieving email, and playing Escape Velocity (people at Ambrosia are god :D ) between it and my iBook 700 MHz.

Mazel Tov on your Bar Mitzvah! I totally agree that the lifespan of a Macintosh computer totally blows away the lifespan of a PC! You may pay more for a Mac, but it will last years beyond the usefulness of a PC.

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by MasterX (OSiX)
Really? Because it's worked for the last 20 years....

No, it hasn't. If you haven't noticed, Apple marketshare has been steadily shrinking and the Mac has become an extremely marginal product, much more so than its great OS should warrant. :(

Besides, it's only in the last year or so that things have gotten REALLY bad, price/perf wise. So how are those powermac sales again?

[DrGonzo]

So are we gunna be able to see these new badass 970 powermacs at compusa on monday after the announcement or what? No apple store around here so i wanna go check one out (assuming they're announced).

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Try running 10 programs at once and come back to me and let me know how you did. I don't notice a speed drop at all on my dual mac. I know from experience that a Dual Mac can trounce even P4 at 3GHz if given a multitasking situation.

Meaning OS X rocks. Fine. We already knew that. That's why we're here. :) Doesn't prove jack about the hardware. If you want to objectively compare hardware, you need a controlled test environment, like one app at a time etc.

Wouldn't it be nice to have decent hardware, so the Mac could be fast in both situations, single and multi-app? If you think your Mac is fast now, imagine how nice it will be to be running on hardware that doesn't suck.

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by MacBandit
Also think about most gamers that buy the highest end machines. They pay $4,000 plus for the best of the best.

I don't think so. On the PC side you can buy a screaming fast machine that does 99% of what you need for the latest games for $1200 or thereabouts. I'm talking about Dell here (remember that poster a few weeks back who got a 3ghz/800fsb/ATI9800/1gig for $1200). IMO most gamers on the PC side stick to that price range. People who are really into games build their own, and it often ends up cheaper than even that.

Originally posted by MacBandit
No Macs don't have a upgrade policy but they sure do hold there price well.

Indeed. Why is that? Because......<drumroll>........new mac hardware hasn't been getting much faster! If PC's were as slow on the acceleration curve as Macs, they would hold their value too. It's all just sand and metal after all.

[JavaCoder]

Assuming the G5 leaks are correct and there will be PPC 970 PowerMacs on monday, I think the probability of PPC 970 Powerbooks hinges on two factors?

First, the availability of chips from IBM, obviously.

Second, what Apple want's their notebook lineup to look like. The old 15" book is obviously a hole in the lineup. If they fill this with a new aluminum G4, then they risk loosing sales based on expectations of some future G5 powerbook (similar to the problem they have now with desktops), but maintain two clearly differentiated notebook lines (iBook and Powerbook). Does apple think people'd snatch up a new G4 if a G5 powerbook is a few quarters away?

A G5 Powerbook, on the other hand, makes the lineup messy and confusing. Which Powerbook is supposed to be the top of the line the 17" G4 or the 15" G5? The 17 " G4 would end up orphaned; I think its sales would suffer. Having a third category of notebook (G5 notebooks) also muddies the differentiation between the PowerBook and iBook.

I'm waiting to see. The introduction of the 12" G4, price drops and the pending introductions of 64-bit Macs have made me come around in the last six months from being convinced I was going to buy a Dell laptop to being 80% convinced that the 12" G4 is the right notebook for me, but its still not clear what's going to work out to be the best choice for a lap top I expect to use for another two years. If they come out with a G5 Powrbook I'll buy that, spending more but knowing I'm somewhat future-proofed by getting the next-gen chip. Since the G5 is going to make any G4 laptop closer to obsolecense I'd stick with the cheapest, the 12".

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
It all depends on your definition of "perform." For an interactive computer, a desktop or a laptop, the correct definition of "perform" is centered around latency. How long does the user have to wait for a given task to complete? (We're talking micro-tasks here, like switching applications or pulling down a menu.) Looking at it in terms of simple instructions-per-second is the wrong approach.

Fine, but having two processors doesn't necessarily help latency either, if each of them is less than half as fast as the single. How many processes are active at any given time? Putting in an extra processor is not going to remove context switching. We're not removing latency by multiprocessing, we're just reducing it...but then again, a faster processor also reduces latency. So we're back to a simple "who's faster, overall".

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
Please point me to a PC with a six-pin FireWire 400 port on the motherboard. (This should not be a tall order. It's been years. I can't imagine they're not out there.) Now please point me to a PC with a 9-pin FireWire 800 connector on the motherboard. (Not quite so easy, huh?)

Who cares if it's on the motherboard? Being on the mobo just means I am forced to pay for something even if I don't need it. How is that good? Takes up less slots? LOL, yeah, we would have to be concerned about that if our ONLY hardware choice provided 3-4 slots. Hmm, this is ringing bells, where have I run across that before? If we had a little choice, maybe we could pick up a board that had the number of slots we need for the task.

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by nickgold
What real Mac user do you know who would come on here and say a $499 Dell comapres to ANY Mac made in the past 5 years?

Um...an honest one? We are comparing hardware here. Of course OSX is the best. I haven't seen anyone here saying that. You can pretend we are Wintrolls, but you are only deluding yourself (nah nah nah nah I can't hear you!!)

[greg6028]

3 to 4 different Power Mac G5
Low end available now, high end by August.
New Powerbook will have a built in camera - only a G4 though.

Steve will start off with an iApp update then go into OSX.3..
Finish with G5

(hopefully he says he will be at the grand opening of the Chicago Apple Store, I am driving from Iowa to see it!)

[jessefoxperry]

kinda off subject (sorry) but everyone's on this board. i dont know if anyone else has already addressed this, so feel free to make fun of me if they have. in the desktop screenshot of panther.....in the lower left hand corner how is the clock open but its not in the dock? makes no since. im getting a headache

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by montefuego
Yet somehow an elegant computer like Apple's, that might cost $300 more, is a CRIME AGAINST NATURE. What is this cheap mentality?

It all depends what you like and how much it is worth. :) It's not a crime against nature, no one is saying that. There's nothing wrong with making slow, overpriced hardware that looks nice, if there are people who want that. I and others are arguing against the claim that Macs are as fast as price-equivalent PCs.

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by JavaCoder
A G5 Powerbook, on the other hand, makes the lineup messy and confusing. Which Powerbook is supposed to be the top of the line the 17" G4 or the 15" G5? The 17 " G4 would end up orphaned; I think its sales would suffer. Having a third category of notebook (G5 notebooks) also muddies the differentiation between the PowerBook and iBook.Okay, here's a quick quiz. Which is the top of the line BMW, the M3, M5, or 750? Depends on your needs, their is no "right" answer. If the 970 hits the 15" before the others, then people who need mobility and speed (developers, wandering renderers, et cetera) will buy it. People who crave screen real estate but don't need the speed as much may stick with the 17". Now, if the 15" gets a decent resolution for a change, that may change as well, but you can't just not redesign one model because it may hurt others (again, keep with the car comparisons .. few companies redo the whole line at once).

Personally, I would pay (quite a lot actually) for a 15" notebook with a 1.2ghz 970 and a decent memory capacity (prefer 2gb) because I do a lot of large system compilation. When you're looking at moving from 60 minutes to 30 minutes for a clean system build, that makes a pretty significant difference. I have no need for the physical real estate of the 17", and don't want the bulk, so that will never be my top of the line powerbook no matter what the processor is.

Honestly though, I wouldn't mind a nice fast workstation in the office with a 12" powerbook for the road if I could get a slightly better resolution, say in the 1280X1024 range, a gig of memory, and a 50% or so faster processor. But those are my requirements, not necessarily those of anyone else.

-Richard

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by soggywulf
It all depends what you like and how much it is worth. :) It's not a crime against nature, no one is saying that. There's nothing wrong with making slow, overpriced hardware that looks nice, if there are people who want that. I and others are arguing against the claim that Macs are as fast as price-equivalent PCs. Agreed. And a camaro is faster than (or can easily be made faster than) a BMW M3. What many people are arguing, however, is not that Macs are faster for the price (they're not), but that for them there are other benefits beside speed that they consider worth paying for. Quality, the user experience, et cetera. Heck, dollar for dollar a Honda Accord is cheaper than an Audi 1.8t, (and the Honda is a very popular car), yet despite the fact that its slower and smaller the Audi has a lot of fans. Why? Not everything is obvious from reading a list of specifications, that's why.

-Richard

[nickgold]

You folks who are all bent out of shape about hardware specs apparently have very little knowledge about how computers work. Because hardware is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't DO anything -- software does. And if your software is garbage and your hardware rocks, you are still in trouble. This is what we call the HORRIBLY TWISTED WORLD OF WINDOWS! One little glitch and the whole thing goes down. Tell me, what makes a faster computer -- the latest specs, or never having to waste your time rebooting? Eh?

The rest of us are happy and thankful to be living in the future, thank you very much. My 4 year old G4 450 Sawtooth runs OS X like a champ, never EVER crashes, in fact barely has any probelms at all -- and keeps getting FASTER every time the operating system gets updated. Compare THAT to the Windows world! Show me a machine that shipped with Windows 98 that is now running XP, and runs XP just as well as it ran 98. PUH-LEEZE.

Hardware spec obsessees -- please go away, or at least limit your blathering to forums particularly set up to keep your weirdness away from the rest of us. Thank you.

Oh, and to the APPLE IS DOOOOOMED crowd, get a clue. Apple will never go anywhere -- nobody else wants to put down cash for R+D, after all. They'll let Apple do the R+D for the industry. They certainly don't have the innovative minds of the sort Apple employs, designing the future of computing. Firewire, wireless networking, etc. -- you tell me we would even be messing with that stuff today if not for Apple.

[rhunter007]

Originally posted by jessefoxperry
in the desktop screenshot of panther.....in the lower left hand corner how is the clock open but its not in the dock?

I don't see this in the screenshot I have. Can you post a link to the image and explain it better? Thanks.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by soggywulf
Fine, but having two processors doesn't necessarily help latency either, if each of them is less than half as fast as the single.Yes, it does. By definition. If you've got two processors and task N is running on processor 0, when you (the user) switch to task M it will begin running on processor 1. That's processor affinity. When you switch back to task N again, the code and data for that task will still be sitting there in processor 0's cache. No context switch.

In the real world, you see this in things like I/O threads that run uninterrupted on a single CPU while events are handled on the other CPU.How many processes are active at any given time?Lots. But Darwin distinguishes between processes that are running and processes that are runnable. A process that's waiting on disk I/O, for example, is not runnable, and therefore requires no CPU cycles. (In technical terms, its PID is never placed in the run queue by the scheduler.) The actual number of runnable processes on your system is reflected by the load average, which shows you the average length of your run queue over a given interval. My "uptime" shows that my load averages are 0.32, 0.28, 0.10. (That's 1, 5, and 15 minute averages.) And that's with iTunes running constantly, and Mail.app polling for new mail every minute. In other words, the number of runnable tasks on the computer is quite low, so the benefit gained from a second processor is very high.We're not removing latency by multiprocessing, we're just reducing it...but then again, a faster processor also reduces latency.No, it doesn't. Faster processors do not necessarily mean faster RAM or bigger caches, and that's where context switching kills you. When you're running a single process in a tight loop, your data and code are all snug in the cache. When you switch out of that loop, the processor has to fetch data and code from all the way out in main memory, which takes *forever* in these terms. So the faster processor you're so amped about just sits there waiting.Who cares if it's on the motherboard? Being on the mobo just means I am forced to pay for something even if I don't need it.Technically that's true, but do you have any idea what it costs Apple to add FireWire 400 to a G4 system? Pennies. FireWire 800 is somewhat more expensive, but it's still under a buck. A Hypertransport-based system will be even cheaper because they'll be able to use off-the-shelf HT bridge ASICs instead of having to integrate it directly into the north bridge. So yes, you're paying for something you don't need. You're paying about a dime for it. As opposed to having to buy it as an add-in card, install it, and hope that it works.If we had a little choice, maybe we could pick up a board that had the number of slots we need for the task. Oh, my dear Lord. Suddenly it's 1985 again. I'm starting to get the impression, "Soggywulf," that you're just trolling for argument here.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by soggywulf
I don't think so. On the PC side you can buy a screaming fast machine that does 99% of what you need for the latest games for $1200 or thereabouts. I'm talking about Dell here (remember that poster a few weeks back who got a 3ghz/800fsb/ATI9800/1gig for $1200). IMO most gamers on the PC side stick to that price range. People who are really into games build their own, and it often ends up cheaper than even that.


High end gamers don't buy $1200 pcs. That is why AlienWare and Falcon NW can continue to profit.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
boy, macBandit, i thought you would know better to get into one of those PC v. Mac arguments in the news forum :p

this stuff is all rather fuzzy, i think, talking about performances and comparisons and such to get you to value/price comparisons. careful guys.

Yeah well you know sometimes we all break down. With so many trolls around I just couldn't help myself when I saw others failing to deliver a decent counterpoint. I usually ignor trolls unless there are a bunch of people responding without stating a solid counterpoint.

I usually don't post on the boards this close to a product release because of the immense amount of bickering and trolling but I just broke down this time and did.

[jessefoxperry]

Originally posted by rhunter007
I don't see this in the screenshot I have. Can you post a link to the image and explain it better? Thanks.

OK, I uploaded an image that shows u what im talking about. look in the lower left hand corner. BTW, this is kinda wierd, i ment to write clock in photoshop but instead got dock because of my sloppy writing.....lol
http://www.microplate.com/strangeclock.jpg

[rjstanford]

I think that its time for a quick analogy about latency vs. speed.

Think airplanes. Which is faster, an F-16 or a 747? If you're talking about pure speed, getting one thing done (or moving one person) the fastest, the F-16 wins hands down. Now let's say that you're trying to move, say, 200 people across the country. All of a sudden the 747 is the "faster" choice.

A single, faster processor is exactly what you want if you're doing primarily one task. These days, most apps (games included) are multithreaded, but in the real world even a multithreaded app often has one main execution bottleneck, and benefits from a single faster processor. If you're doing many things, having the multiple processors generally works better. This would include, for example, doing some background movie rendering while playing the game (simply "running the OS" and having email checking turned on won't make much of a difference). This is why servers generally perform better with more processors, even if they're slower, because overall load handling is more important than the speed of any one task completing.

In a workstation environment, where you're mainly interactive, having a 2nd processor can help somewhat just by offloading OS intensive tasks. It makes the apparent latency a lot less, and allows for some background work (playing MP3s, etc) to occur without impacting your primary task much. All modern Macs benefit from this with Quartz Extreme offloading much of the GUI work to the GPU. Over two processors in a single-user workstation really won't help much unless you're doing a lot of mostly unrelated background activities (which include things like high-res rendering where the images can be broken into multiple portions for work, but not a lot of common activities). Most computer work still has one or two key processes, some light background work (even in Word you have saving, printing, spell checking, etc), and a lot of waiting on the user.

As a side note, I still have a couple of old PCs -- 2-way PII-300s -- that stayed useful much longer than they might otherwise have done because of their apparent responsiveness. When asked to perform any particular single task quickly, however (like a compile) they show their age immediately.

-Richard

[bretm]

Don't know if this has any basis in reality, but if not, apple should look into it!

Most likely done just for fun, but very cool!

Don't know how long this link will last!

http://digitalstudios.geneva-link.com/movies/Film-enya.html

It's just plain cool whatever it is!

[rhunter007]

Originally posted by jessefoxperry
OK, I uploaded an image that shows u what im talking about. look in the lower left hand corner. BTW, this is kinda wierd, i ment to write clock in photoshop but instead got dock because of my sloppy writing.....lol

Hmmm, that's weird. Though are you sure it's a clock? I mean I see the AM. But as I remember, the clock in 10.2 looks quite different. That to me looks like some X-windows app (in which case it would *not* appear in the dock...even in 10.2).

[jessefoxperry]

Originally posted by rhunter007
Hmmm, that's weird. Though are you sure it's a clock? I mean I see the AM. But as I remember, the clock in 10.2 looks quite different. That to me looks like some X-windows app (in which case it would *not* appear in the dock...even in 10.2).

acually that's exactly how the clock looks in 10.2 even down to the AM and PM......because when its am it shows on the top, PM, it shows on the bottom of that top bar

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by bretm
Don't know if this has any basis in reality, but if not, apple should look into it!

Most likely done just for fun, but very cool!

Don't know how long this link will last!

http://digitalstudios.geneva-link.com/movies/Film-enya.html

It's just plain cool whatever it is! Why stop there? Check out http://digitalstudios.geneva-link.com/index2.html there's a whole faked apple page on it. Renders, of course, where a real one would have actual product, and not the best crafted, but a fun diversion nonetheless.

Of course, don't forget to check out the main page, which has this (brutally babelfished translation) disclaimer:Before entering this Web site, here a list of some elements which it would be wise to bring to your attention:

- All that is presented there was the object of a Work of Maturity (cf definition) and is, for this reason, a company purely nonlucrative.

- From there, you will be perhaps more inclined to tolerate the use of considerable elements not belonging to us and being, for the majority, subjected to royalties.

- In spite of the loan of many elements not belonging to us, we are convinced of the innovating character of our step (and let us be thus owners of the ideas and concepts innovative present on the pages which follows), and are sure that our creation would know, in the broad outline, realizable being.

- We excuse ourselves, by advance, near all the people who could believe themselves injured commercially; what is not the case within sight of the first observation. In other words, "We know its a copyright violation, and possibly confusing, please ignore that fact. Oh, and if you release something like it, we will claim that it was our idea.

-Richard

[O.K.]

Originally posted by Ashami
Okay, just for fun, this is what I think Monday will look like:

Panther preview
...
New 970s
...

Other
...

Everyhting else I totally agree, except Steve is wearing black turtleneck.

Hmm, they call it wisful thinking ;-)

[chetwilliams]

Originally posted by bretm
Don't know if this has any basis in reality, but if not, apple should look into it!

Most likely done just for fun, but very cool!

Don't know how long this link will last!

http://digitalstudios.geneva-link.com/movies/Film-enya.html

It's just plain cool whatever it is!
That would be absolutely sweet. The only thing is that the display is completely vertical. It needs to be adjustable and then it would be perfect.

[fpnc]

Back in May I was __very__ skeptical about these PPC970-shipping at WWDC rumors. At that time I was predicting that there would be __no__ PPC970-based product introduction at WWDC. I went so far as to say that it would be unlikely for Apple to even provide details on any future PPC970 products.

Well, now that almost every Mac fanatic and rumor site seems to believe that the PPC970 __will__ ship at WWDC I'm beginning to change my sentiments. So here is what I predict.

Apple will lay out a roadmap for transition to the PPC970. IBM will be there to talk about the PPC970 __and__ beyond (higher clock speeds, PPC980, etc.). I think Apple has decided to do this because sales of the existing G4 PowerMacs have fallen so far that they believe that they have little to lose by pre-announcing the next generation of PowerMac (i.e. the PPC970-based G5 product). Apple is probably also seeing more and more publishing and graphics professionals switching to Intel and AMD products, and this worries them (as it should, since once converted to Windows it will be very difficult to get them back). So, given the latter, Apple is going to provide a detailed and long-term plan to bring performance back to the PowerMac product line.

I am, however, still skeptical that PPC970-based products will actually ship at WWDC. I'm fairly certain that there will be hardware demonstrations during the keynote and there may also be some discussions about the architecture of the new G5 PowerMacs. But, I don't see any of these products actually shipping at WWDC (or __immediately__ after). Thus, I expect that G5's won't actually be available until much later this year.

As far as the "leaked" G5 PowerMac specs that appeared briefly on the Apple Store, I'm still convinced that these were fake. Whether this was a hack or an inside prank that went wrong or something else I don't know. In any case, when the new G5 PowerMacs __first__ appear I don't expect them to exactly match what was on the Apple Store (i.e. expect something a lot more conservative). I also believe that the prices on any dual G5 will be pretty high, with the top-end configuration running significantly over $4000 (U.S.).

The most optimistic possibility that I can see is that Apple pre-announces PPC970-based PowerMacs at 1.4GHz, 1.6GHz (dual?), and 1.8GHz (dual?) and that limited availability on these machines should begin sometime in August or September.

There will also be some good software demos (new iChat probably a given) and I expect that Panther (obviously) will remain the major focus at WWDC

And finally, I'm still hoping that we will see a new 15" PowerBook at WWDC. It will be G4 based and offer improved graphics/display, Firewire 800, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth, and perhaps USB 2.0.

[steveh]

Originally posted by thies
If you poke around further you'd realize that Apple makes as much as 30% profits from the sale of a powermac.

And nothing at all from Safari, iMovie, iTunes (not the store), iCal, ...

Just *where*, exactly, do you suppose the money to fund iApps comes from?

You act as though hardware gross profit is all there is and that nothing else matters.

[rjwill246]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
I'm starting to get the impression, "Soggywulf," that you're just trolling for argument here.
Thanks for some of the most lucid explanation seen on this site- or most any other on this topic. The Mac bashers/Wintel-philes just can't grasp the idea that CLASSINESS as well as utility have a place in the market as millions of Mac users can testify. After "trawling" through CompUSA to look at Wintel machines, it became clear that there IS NO design flare at all in use by these companies and once you do get to $499 machines, you have nothing that comes close to an eMac- cause if nothing else, it DOES NOT have Windows and that is a plus of such magnitude, I have no idea how you can put a dollar value on it. My made to 'spec' Win2000 blue box with a clear window on its side is a behemoth in size, lightweight in weight and since I only need it for an ultrasound program that is only available for wintel, I find myself never using it for anything else. From the GUI on, it is hiddeous! And, it cost over 1500 bucks with monitor etc. My fully decked out 15" iMac was less and there is NO comparison between the two in functionality.
Soggywulf, you are a wet doggy!

[Lyle]

Originally posted by IndyGopher
Actually, that would be 12:00 EST. And since only Indiana is on EST, the point is pretty moot for someone on the east coast, where they are on EDT. Fortunately, since the original poster asked for the "east coast" time, and that's the information I provided, my reply was actually useful to someone. But thanks for sharing your intimate knowledge of time zones with the rest of us, Gopher boy.

[AppleMatt]

What makes me laugh is that most Mac-bashers have never used a Mac. What makes me laugh more is that they spend their time bashing Macs. What makes me laugh even more than that is that they are usually around 13 and living off the PC daddy bought, because daddy knows best.

Arn I realise I'm not helping with how far off-topic this thread has gone.

AppleMatt

[rog]

I don't believe any of these rumors will come true. Far more likely, they will revamp the whole line and all macs will be beige because "it works in the PC world and they sell far more computers." Additionally, System 6 will be reintroduced and OSX abandoned because "it's the leanest, fastest OS we've ever released. No one will complain about a slow finder on a Beige G5 running OS 6. Besides the whole 'X' thing has been overdone. Who needs multitasking when you have 'multifinder' ?"

[york2600]

Does anyone know if they're allowing cameras into the keynote now that it's being broadcast into the Apple stores. I'm going to be there and I really want to take some pictures.

-Tim

[nickgold]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
What makes me laugh is that most Mac-bashers have never used a Mac. What makes me laugh more is that they spend their time bashing Macs. What makes me laugh even more than that is that they are usually around 13 and living off the PC daddy bought, because daddy knows best.

I guess it makes for some larfs between reboots... "Hmmmm, how can I justify this POS to myself yet again...?" ;)

[soggywulf]

BTW, Jeff, thanks for making a well thought-out reply to my post, rather than a knee-jerk apologist baseless reiteration.

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
When you're running a single process in a tight loop, your data and code are all snug in the cache. When you switch out of that loop, the processor has to fetch data and code from all the way out in main memory, which takes *forever* in these terms. So the faster processor you're so amped about just sits there waiting.

I see, this makes sense. I was previously missing the implications of # or procs/CPU on number of main mem accesses. I stand corrected. Also your point about the smaller number of running vs runnable processes is well taken.

Hey cool, bring on the multi-CPU 970s! :cool:

So, I wonder, how do the dual-CPU macs compare in price/perf to multi-CPU wintel boxes?

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
So yes, you're paying for something you don't need. You're paying about a dime for it.

This would be fine if Apple passed the savings onto us. But getting back to where this lil subthread started, it looks like Apple is jacking up the price points, so we as customers are not really saving anything.

[DrGonzo]

Ok, so where can you check the new powermacs out at, when they're announced, if you don't have an apple store in town?

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by MasterX (OSiX)
People today are weird. Apple used to have a market plan like this:
Ultimate performance for what we do (which was then simply design and not much else)
Easiest to use
Best for education.

Then the G4 got blown away in the Ghz race and prices had to be cut on high end machines.

Then Dell cut into school sales and prices had to be cut.

Then XP came out and Windows was better looking and overall easier to use.

Back before the iMac came out (which marked the change of the Apple Macintosh as a computer for 'the rest of us', if more expensive) when you saw a G3 PowerMac in a graphics lab somewhere you almost ****e you pants, they were reveared darn it. Once people started owning high end PowerMacs they lost their allure, as well as $1499 PCs which can run equally as fast. I predict that Apple plans to replace their crown with the 970, offering a system which YOU CANT AFFORD and APPLE DOESNT CARE, just like it should be. crap about how its overpriced all you want while me and my commercial art and pro DV buddies laugh at you because we use the machine to make money and love running FCP4 so fast it makes Wintel users on Premiere heads' spin.

In reply to an earlier post, with post prod houses switching to windows rending, this is why Apple is ferverent in their suport for Real Time rendering in software and with hardware cards, and FCP4's improved support for EDLs, etc. Keep a Mac in the editing room where it belongs, but if you must, export to something more expesive to render or whatever.

You speak the truth - finally someone has! Bring on tomorrow.

[Skull Leader]

As an independent reseller dude for Apple products, I can only speculate from what I've been told from the supply chain. It's been hinted (hypothetically) that it would be 'unwise' to have stock onhand for PowerMacs, 15" PowerBooks, displays, iMacs and Xserves come Monday.

1.0GHz and Dual 1.25 GHz PowerMacs are disco-ed, dead stock, that's all I know for sure. The Dual 1.42 is still available as current but "is not expected to be in high demand". I expect the other models to have immediate availability.

Also, about the "leak" from Apple, some have suggested that this may be a deliberate understatement and I would have to agree. My knowledge of the PPC 970 is that the 'multi-core' technology (which differes from the dual processor model of current PowerMacs) is still down the road. Also, that the two processors on one core are actually less in clock speed than the singles. I expect the dual-core high end machine to be dealyed for quite some time.

Also, my understanding of the 970 chips is that the prototype with Altivec was a 1.8 GHz single chip. The second generation achieved a much "higher than expected' clock rating of 2.5 Ghz, and that the multi-core mode was unlable to match those high clock speeds.

My educated guess (and I really only have as much 'real' facts as any of you out there) is that we will see a single 1.8 GHz 970 and (maybe) single 2.5 GHz PPC PowerMacs available immediately, with the dual 1.42 G4 kicking arround unitl the "significantly faster" 970 Dual core machines come out "by the end of the year".

I also expect an alum 15" Powerbook, although I only expect it to become up to par with the current 12" and 17" specs. If there actually is a 970 PowerBook I will wet my pants and have to find a buyer for my 1GHz TiBook. Also expect iMacs and Xserves to have new 970 models announced, but not yet available.....and the ITMS still not availabe in Canada. :mad:

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by MacBandit
I'm sorry but a Dua 1.42 or 1.25 Mac is very comparable to a P4 machine in the 2.5 to 3GHz range. They aren't grossly oudated as you seem to think. Anything above that will cost as much or more then a PowerMac if you buy it from a reputable company and don't build it yourself anyway. In any case go to Dell or IBM online and configure them to have equal hardware. I haven't done it in the last couple months but as I have said, in the past the difference was as little as $200 and the most it ever was was $500 and to me the OS is worth that much. Microsoft products suck. Hell I'd pay a $1000 more to have the MacOS. My friends have nothing but problems with XP and the other Windows varients and no they aren't idiots they know what they are doing it's just they are like me and are constantly installing and uninstalling software and trying out different things and playing with this and that and bingo crash. I do that on my Mac and keep up with the normal maintenance i.e. permissions repairs etc. and it never crashes.

Also if Macs are so damn slow and such a pain to use why did they use them for the basic preproduction for the Lord of the Rings movies, The Hulk, and about a million other films. It's because the artists find it easier to use and this lets there imagination work because they aren't having to constantly deal with this or that not working.

Here here, I love it when people write like this. Thanks for saying what I've been thinking.

[IndyGopher]

Originally posted by Lyle
Fortunately, since the original poster asked for the "east coast" time, and that's the information I provided, my reply was actually useful to someone. But thanks for sharing your intimate knowledge of time zones with the rest of us, Gopher boy.
I appreciate how well you take correction. The simple fact is, your answer was wrong. I thought I was rather polite about it, and didn't resort to any sort of personal derision about it. Grow up.

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by mccoma
Nope, you made the point quite nicely. Macs (for the most part) just work and Mac users are used to dealing with the task at hand. PC's generally have other issues going on.

Yeah, like whether to go outside this week!

[gotohamish]

Check this out, a reply to the thread:

Coming tomorrow:

Dual G5 XMac 1.6, 1.8, 2.0 (with PCI-X, upto 8GB RAM, optical audio)

15.4" G5 XBook1.4

Single G5 PowerMac 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 (Regular PCI, upto 4GB RAM, analog audio)

All with APX, Bluetooth, blah blah blah.

Maybe.

[Spidermanjohn]

If it is true, I LIKE IT!!!

http://digitalstudios.geneva-link.com/movies/Film-enya.html

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by Skull Leader
As an independent reseller dude for Apple products, I can only speculate from what I've been told from the supply chain. It's been hinted (hypothetically) that it would be 'unwise' to have stock onhand for PowerMacs, 15" PowerBooks, displays, iMacs and Xserves come Monday.

1.0GHz and Dual 1.25 GHz PowerMacs are disco-ed, dead stock, that's all I know for sure. The Dual 1.42 is still available as current but "is not expected to be in high demand". I expect the other models to have immediate availability.

Also, about the "leak" from Apple, some have suggested that this may be a deliberate understatement and I would have to agree. My knowledge of the PPC 970 is that the 'multi-core' technology (which differes from the dual processor model of current PowerMacs) is still down the road. Also, that the two processors on one core are actually less in clock speed than the singles. I expect the dual-core high end machine to be dealyed for quite some time.

Also, my understanding of the 970 chips is that the prototype with Altivec was a 1.8 GHz single chip. The second generation achieved a much "higher than expected' clock rating of 2.5 Ghz, and that the multi-core mode was unlable to match those high clock speeds.

My educated guess (and I really only have as much 'real' facts as any of you out there) is that we will see a single 1.8 GHz 970 and (maybe) single 2.5 GHz PPC PowerMacs available immediately, with the dual 1.42 G4 kicking arround unitl the "significantly faster" 970 Dual core machines come out "by the end of the year".

I also expect an alum 15" Powerbook, although I only expect it to become up to par with the current 12" and 17" specs. If there actually is a 970 PowerBook I will wet my pants and have to find a buyer for my 1GHz TiBook. Also expect iMacs and Xserves to have new 970 models announced, but not yet available.....and the ITMS still not availabe in Canada. :mad:

Don't get me wrong, I really hope you're right, but just because you heard they achieved 2.5GHz, doesn't mean they can yield enough for mass production just yet.

I sincerely hope I can read this post tomorrow, and laugh at how wrong I was.

[Skull Leader]

Originally posted by gotohamish
Don't get me wrong, I really hope you're right, but just because you heard they achieved 2.5GHz, doesn't mean they can yield enough for mass production just yet.

Probably ture. Very possible that they toned down the chips for reliability in production. The Apple info may be very well correct at 1.6 GHz and 1.8 GHz. Also, Dual 2.0 GHz sounds in line for a dual-core based on the 2.5 GHz run. The single 2.5 GHz chip may be the prototype model for those 'faster macs by the end of the year' IBM mentions. Just don't expect to see the Dual 2GHz model for quite some time.

[makkystyle]

Originally posted by yzedf
Another interesting factoid is that the dollars spent per year is within $1 million between Apple and Dell. Obviously, someone wastes a lot of money (inculuding giving CEO 1/4 of profits as salary/bonus) when compared to the number of units sold per year. :rolleyes:

Yes steve-o may be getting a large pay packet but the dollars spent per year is hardly a comparable statistic. Is Dell developing it's own OS? No. It's own software? No. Dell doesn't do anything more than your average Wintel geek could do in his basement. They assemble computers. Essentially, Apple fills the roles of Microsoft and Dell COMBINED. Now tell me who is spending more money in that comparison?

Also just to put this to rest FY can mean BOTH Fiscal Year and Full Year. If you want to see this in action please look at the annual reports of Heineken, Sprint, Alcatel, Aventis... Google the term "Full Year" and you will find many more I'm sure. For simplicity's sake I chose to use only one form of the acronym.

edit: Oh yeah... and I think Steve-O is worth it!

[technocoy]

--------------------------------------------------
Take a look at this

If it is true, I LIKE IT!!!

http://digitalstudios.geneva-link.c.../Film-enya.html
--------------------------------------------------

:D don't take this as an insult, but this is why i'm glad apple DOESN'T listen to all the "designers" out there... the functionality and technology it showcases is nice, but this thing is fugly! I could go into all the things that are wrong with it from a design standpoint but i have to go to work tomorrow! LOL!

I have several wonderful 3d friends, but most of them, without an art director and industrial designer, would be dangerous in the design world.(and i don't mean "dangerous" in a good way.)

:eek:

[h'biki]

Originally posted by soggywulf
There aren't that many of these that need to use macs. Most of them can switch to PC if the price is wrong. IOW, they can't price these just for the professionals who don't care about a few hundred more or less. There aren't enough.

Thats right, there's just not enough that's Apple is staying in business, posting profits most of the time, and is gaining back its marketshare in post (audio and film/video). A niche market is still a market.

I know quite a few post houses that are switching to Macs running Shake because the price/performance IS BETTER than running shake on a PC under linux. [That probably has something to do with the free rendering licences :)]


Ask the thousands of consumers who buy 3 gig p4s for games. Why is your "work" more important than my "games"?

Cause my taxes obviously pay for your inadequate education which you waste playing games. :) :) :)

Who are you to say what I or any other consumer should do with my Mac? [/B]

I'm not telling you what to do with it - I'm asking a question.

The Computer Industry is *the* triumph of a late-capitalist consumer economy. Upgrade. Upgrade. Buy. Buy. Buy. The whole industry is based on this myth that only faster and newer is better. And that everyone needs faster and newer.

Technology gets outdated as soon as you buy it and people perceive it as being useless... and they throw it away. Some ridiculously high percentage of land fill is dedicated to computers (I'm too lazy to get the figures, but if anyone asks I'll hunt them up).

And this perception of 'uselessness' is imnsho a big problem. We could be donating this technology to schools or to the third world. I reckon Word 5 runs as fast on my Centris 650 as Office vX runs on a G4. As computers get faster, software just seems to get worst.

Thats my beef.

[crystalball]

Rundown:
+ iTunes Music Store: reporting, new labels joined, Music Store in Japan now, and Europe later.
+ quark 6: sale figures; shake3 with Nemo;
+ iChat video support.
+ iCam: webcam with bluetooth, works with Mac & Sony Ericsson phones
+ ibook: student edition 800MHz with CDRW
+ 15" powerbook: 1GHz G4, Firewire 800 (no Firewire 400), same price
+ G5 chip: tech spec with IBM
+ G5 powermac: what can be wrong when the spec you have is from Apple? free panther upgrade in Jan.

- no panther demo

:eek:

[makkystyle]

Originally posted by crystalball
Rundown:
+ iTunes Music Store: reporting, new labels joined, Music Store in Japan now, and Europe later.
+ quark 6: sale figures; shake3 with Nemo;
+ iChat video support.
+ iCam: webcam with bluetooth, works with Mac & Sony Ericsson phones
+ ibook: student edition 800MHz with CDRW
+ 15" powerbook: 1GHz G4, Firewire 800 (no Firewire 400), same price
+ G5 chip: tech spec with IBM
+ G5 powermac: what can be wrong when the spec you have is from Apple? free panther upgrade in Jan.

- no panther demo

:eek:

Hmmmm?? [scratches head] Joke?

[h'biki]

Originally posted by montefuego
This price fixation amazes me. I remember paying $4000 for a Zenith laptop that weighed over 10 pounds, was running word perfect on a teeny, lo-con black and white screen. Why do computer users ignore issues like fit and finish, elegant design (both hardware and software) and expect to pay NOTHING EXTRA for these qualities, yet admire (and perhaps purchase) a BMW or Lexus or the like without hesitating, spending 10's of thousands more for a car that really does 'exactly' what a neon or focus does, just not as elegantly. Yet somehow an elegant computer like Apple's, that might cost $300 more, is a CRIME AGAINST NATURE. What is this cheap mentality?

Dickmeasuring and folding. Thats all it comes down to.

[buseman]

Originally posted by Spidermanjohn
If it is true, I LIKE IT!!!

http://digitalstudios.geneva-link.com/movies/Film-enya.html

ROFL! Someone got way too much time on their hands :D

[wizard]

You have some very valid points but forget that not everyone runs windows on PC hardware. Linux is rock solid, and can relieve people of the headachs of the MS world.

To call using a G4 based machine living in the future is a bit of a stretch. Like it or not the G4 series has not keep up with the evolution of PC processors.

I agree with you that obsession with hardware can be a problem. In the case of Apple they have not even thought about it for the last few years. The PowerMac is so in need of a make over that anything less than a state of the art intro of new hardware by apple will be useless. Because like it or not Software does out run cpu performance.

I don't believe apple is going anywhere either. On the otherhand I don't know how long they will be producing Macs or computers in general. Lets face it if the Mac line revenue keeps shrinking with respect to all the other revenue centers it will go away.

It will be a shame to see this happen. But apple needs hardware that is a compelling motivator for people purchasing them. Software is only part of that equation, the actual hardware price is also part of that issue.


Thanks
Dave


You folks who are all bent out of shape about hardware specs apparently have very little knowledge about how computers work. Because hardware is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't DO anything -- software does. And if your software is garbage and your hardware rocks, you are still in trouble. This is what we call the HORRIBLY TWISTED WORLD OF WINDOWS! One little glitch and the whole thing goes down. Tell me, what makes a faster computer -- the latest specs, or never having to waste your time rebooting? Eh?

The rest of us are happy and thankful to be living in the future, thank you very much. My 4 year old G4 450 Sawtooth runs OS X like a champ, never EVER crashes, in fact barely has any probelms at all -- and keeps getting FASTER every time the operating system gets updated. Compare THAT to the Windows world! Show me a machine that shipped with Windows 98 that is now running XP, and runs XP just as well as it ran 98. PUH-LEEZE.

Hardware spec obsessees -- please go away, or at least limit your blathering to forums particularly set up to keep your weirdness away from the rest of us. Thank you.

Oh, and to the APPLE IS DOOOOOMED crowd, get a clue. Apple will never go anywhere -- nobody else wants to put down cash for R+D, after all. They'll let Apple do the R+D for the industry. They certainly don't have the innovative minds of the sort Apple employs, designing the future of computing. Firewire, wireless networking, etc. -- you tell me we would even be messing with that stuff today if not for Apple.

[mactastic]

Well, it's Sunday night, and high end powermac orders are set for 7-10 days to ship. Wonder if that will still be accurate 24 hours from now?

[h'biki]

Originally posted by wizard
[B]You have some very valid points but forget that not everyone runs windows on PC hardware. Linux is rock solid, and can relieve people of the headachs of the MS world.

Name me one Linux GUI that is consistent.

I can't think of any. They're improving and improving and will get there. But they're not there yet.


I agree with you that obsession with hardware can be a problem. In the case of Apple they have not even thought about it for the last few years. The PowerMac is so in need of a make over that anything less than a state of the art intro of new hardware by apple will be useless. Because like it or not Software does out run cpu performance.


This I agree with. Moto hasn't kept the G4 torch burning at all. But Apple hasn't priced the PowerMac or its peripherals to match. They still *way* overprice for RAM. If they added 256-512 megs of additional RAM to each machine then we'd be talking something decent.

[wizard]

Hi all;

Back again after enjoying a very nice day outside. You know what I'm talking about green grass and sun shine. :)

As this thread has unfolded some have tried to convince me an others that apples pricing is comparable to Dells, fto prevent a riot we have not suggested a second tear vendor. So I went to Dells web site and looked at their home PC's, their top of the line XPS is $1899. For this you get a 2.8 GHx P4 with an 800MHz frontside bus, 512MB of dual channel memory, an ATI Radeon 9600 with a 128 MB memory, 19" monitor, plus a whole bunch of ports.

In my estimation the closest apple computer is $2699, this isn't a $200 dollar difference nor is it a $500 dollar difference. Like I said before I'm completely willing to spend a little extra for a mac, but by the time you bring it up to Dell standards you will have spent much more than a thousand over the cost of the Dell. The operating system issues aren't even there because you don't have to run a MS OS on the Dell. Frankly; except after major hardware introductions, apples prices are always out of sync with comparable items in the PC world.

The reality of the situation is this; the Apple tax is enough to send me to Jamaica for a week. I have to have a very good reason to spend that cash on an Apple over that vacation. Maybe the 970 systems will have everything packaged together and priced to convince me. Historically though this isn't alway the case with apple.

The problem is Apple introduces competive machines and then stands by as the PC world passes them by. Hopefully by being team with IBM this won't happen anymore, but I do have my doubts. My first conventional PC was a Apple MacPlus so its not like I don't like the hardware, but having to bend over for the honor is a little much.

Thanks
Dave



Originally posted by MacBandit
Try running 10 programs at once and come back to me and let me know how you did. I don't notice a speed drop at all on my dual mac. I know from experience that a Dual Mac can trounce even P4 at 3GHz if given a multitasking situation.



Meaning OS X rocks. Fine. We already knew that. That's why we're here. Doesn't prove jack about the hardware. If you want to objectively compare hardware, you need a controlled test environment, like one app at a time etc.

Wouldn't it be nice to have decent hardware, so the Mac could be fast in both situations, single and multi-app? If you think your Mac is fast now, imagine how nice it will be to be running on hardware that doesn't suck.

[cooper13]

But take the Dell XPS, add a DVD burner, gigabit ethernet, home video authoring software, (no option to add firewire), second monitor support, and the rest to spec it out to the G4 in terms of comparability, and it is $2816. Of course this does have one monitor included, but the point is they are roughly equal!

[MattG]

Well this is it!! Just a few more hours. I'll be at work unfortunately but I'll be checking all the rumor sites as well as Apple's site once 1pm strikes. I'll be disappointed if at 15.4" AlBook isn't announced, however I won't be surprised if it isn't.

[wizard]

quote:Originally posted by wizard
[B]
Name me one Linux GUI that is consistent.

I can't think of any. They're improving and improving and will get there. But they're not there yet.

Consistant - well none of them on the other hand you can pick and choose your Window manager. Yes Linux is improving all the time, on the other hand if you don't need MS applications it is allready a better OS than most of the OS that MS supplies. The thing is that it is a reliable almost crash proof OS alternative with wide acceptance.

The thing that will be neat is when Apple delievers its Xserver implementation. You could then have all the software advantages of the open source world runing right beside your Mac world applications. That will be something.


quote:
I agree with you that obsession with hardware can be a problem. In the case of Apple they have not even thought about it for the last few years. The PowerMac is so in need of a make over that anything less than a state of the art intro of new hardware by apple will be useless. Because like it or not Software does out run cpu performance.



This I agree with. Moto hasn't kept the G4 torch burning at all. But Apple hasn't priced the PowerMac or its peripherals to match. They still *way* overprice for RAM. If they added 256-512 megs of additional RAM to each machine then we'd be talking something decent.

This is why I think Apple has the possibility to save the PowerMac line with the 970. But they have also historically screwed up big time configuring their machines. There is a limit to how much extra value an Apple has over a PC. If Apple crosses the line they will have a hard time moving the 970's after the rush of the lemmings. I don't think I will sleep tonight to heavily, if they hit the right price point I could be a customer again. On the other hand the next PC I buy will be a long term investment, if the 970's can't be justified from that perspective then its PC hardware for my next major upgrade. By the way we are talking a 5 year or longer upgrade cycle a year, so apple would mis me as a customer for much of those years.

Dave

[wizard]

Take a look at Dell's specs. For the most part you will be adding to the MAC to bring it up to Dell standards.

Further you have to decide how much of those goodies you will be using on either machine. In the end the MAC comes up short. The differential is thousands not hundreds and certianly not $200.

Say what you will about the software, it takes a reasonable hardware environment to run it. I have this Sundays COMPUSA flier sitting in fornt of me, they have an Apple Ibook for 1299, it only comes with 128MB of ram. That is a complete joke consideirng the PC hardware on the same page and the reality of OS/X. I mean really APPLE sell us a computer that atleast can run your OS in a user positive way!!! Its one thing to sell premium hardware which is what Apple PC's are, but you would think that they would be configured out of the box to run Apples main OS well!!!

I'm sorry if this upsets people but these little things tick me off about apple.

Dave



But take the Dell XPS, add a DVD burner, gigabit ethernet, home video authoring software, (no option to add firewire), second monitor support, and the rest to spec it out to the G4 in terms of comparability, and it is $2816. Of course this does have one monitor included, but the point is they are roughly equal!

[bobindashadows]

Originally posted by wizard
The thing that will be neat is when Apple delievers its Xserver implementation. Dave [/B]

By now I've learned not to bother with trolls - and whether you like it or not, you are one. I don't mean to piss you off, I'm just observing that you appear to enjoy stirring up trouble. Not debate, trouble.

Anyway, if there is one thing that gets on my nerves, is when people make dumb mistakes, like calling the company MAC (always full caps), or even computers being MACS. Another thing is calling the "Xserve"s "Xserver"s. Please get it right. Not as bad as calling the computers Apples and the company MAC, but it's kinda annoying when people on these boards don't even know the name of the products. Perhaps you are just used to typing out "server" and not just "serve", but don't say Xserver. You sound like those reporters at the register (didn't they do that once?)

[uburoibob]

Originally posted by technocoy
--------------------------------------------------
Take a look at this

If it is true, I LIKE IT!!!

http://digitalstudios.geneva-link.c.../Film-enya.html
--------------------------------------------------

:D don't take this as an insult, but this is why i'm glad apple DOESN'T listen to all the "designers" out there... the functionality and technology it showcases is nice, but this thing is fugly! I could go into all the things that are wrong with it from a design standpoint but i have to go to work tomorrow! LOL!

I have several wonderful 3d friends, but most of them, without an art director and industrial designer, would be dangerous in the design world.(and i don't mean "dangerous" in a good way.)

:eek:

Q: How many art directors does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Does it have to be a lightbulb?

LOL

[skunk]

WWDC offerings, a last optimistic guess:

1.8, 2.0 and 2.5 GHz 970 PM available now
1.4 and 1.6 GHz 970 iMacs announced
970 Powerbooks: 1.4 GHz 15" available immediately, 12" and 17" to follow.
4 new adjustable displays to match new PMs: 17", 20", 23", 30", all with optional camera and mic.
10.3 demoed.
Q6 tablet announced.
Wireless 2-button scrolling mouse and metallic keyboard

...dreaming on....:)

[wizard]

Ok guys I've taken you up on this supposed $200 gap between apple and PC hardware. Went to the dell web site and looked at a XPS system, they have one advertised for $1899. The closet apple I oculd find is $2699 and you would have to add hardware to it to bring it up to Dell standards.

The only time recently that Apple has had pricing comparable or slightly above PC prices is at the introduction of new hardware. Within three months the advantage is gone as the PC hardware continues to improve. I realize that Motorola is a big player in this problem but none the less Apple is only competitive for a few months out of the last couple of years. By competitve I accept a little bit of a postitve price differential but not a thousand or more.

Like I said before I'm breathlessly waiting for the 970 introduction. If history repeats itself they will only be viable for a short period of time.


quote:Originally posted by MacBandit
The last time I compared a Mac to a PC feature for feature Dell and IBM both were within $200 of the same price as a PowerMac. I'm sorry but overpriced Macs is a myth unless you are building your own PC which can't rightly be compared as you are putting your own labor into it which isn't being added into the cost on top of you don't have system warranty o any support.



Agree 100%.

When I told people I was going to buy a Mac for X dollars, most people gasped. I aked them to price a Sony with an 80 gig HD, 17" widescreen LCD, CD-R/RW drive, DVD-R drive, AND software...not much difference. I think they were within 200 bucks of one another.

Squire

[Rower_CPU]

wizard-
Will you humor me and post the exact specs of both machines and the extras you have to add to each to make them equivalent, plus their total and individual parts prices.

That would really help everyone get on the same page here. :)

[pedro taquelim]

Originally posted by Brent Turbo
BMWs are overpriced crap. You're an ass if you buy one, because you can get a Yugo for less than 1/10th the cost!

Here's a funny notion: people should be allowed to buy what they want, for whatever reasons they want to buy it. Why is does this strange need to tell others what to buy only occur in the computer world? Who cares?? They're just computers and they're infinitely less important than friends, family, and a whole lot of other things. They're tools that will be thrown in the trash in a few years.


CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP!!!!!

this was the best post of the night!!!

thank you very much, I am going to bed... computers are crap...why the hell are we wasting our time talking about this crap!

a pc a mac...who cares! be happy!

bye bye!

[wizard]

You really have no idea at all that Apple is in effect running a variant of UNIX do you. Since you don't understand that you probally won't know what a X-server is or what X is itself.

If you had the slightest idea of what a computer can be used for outside the desktop you would understand why I mentioned the possibliity that Apple might deliever their X-server implementation. If it comes at the conference or with the next major OS (panther) roll out it would be a good thing for Apple in my estimation. How commenting on this potentialy positive developemnt is trolling I don't know, I do know irresponsible behaviour when I see though.


quote:Originally posted by wizard
The thing that will be neat is when Apple delievers its Xserver implementation. Dave [/B]



By now I've learned not to bother with trolls - and whether you like it or not, you are one. I don't mean to piss you off, I'm just observing that you appear to enjoy stirring up trouble. Not debate, trouble.

Anyway, if there is one thing that gets on my nerves, is when people make dumb mistakes, like calling the company MAC (always full caps), or even computers being MACS. Another thing is calling the "Xserve"s "Xserver"s. Please get it right. Not as bad as calling the computers Apples and the company MAC, but it's kinda annoying when people on these boards don't even know the name of the products. Perhaps you are just used to typing out "server" and not just "serve", but don't say Xserver. You sound like those reporters at the register (didn't they do that once?)

__________________
i need a haircut

[mod. edit - No personal attacks. And learn how to quote properly, please.]

[shadowfax]

wizard--you are a newbie and are really getting a little fiery for my tastes. stop flaming and make arguments without insulting people's intelligence. who are you even talking to? if it's rower, i can promise you he is very aware of what X11 is.

i am sorry, i just matched up the quote and realized who you were quoting. he doesn't know what he is talking about either, i agree, but you really should try being nicer about telling him that. also, learn to use the quote button on the lower right of each post. it makes things understandable for the rest of us by formatting it right. thanks

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by wizard
The thing is that it is a reliable almost crash proof OS alternative with wide acceptance.Oh, come now. It's not the bad old days of 1997. Every operating system these days is virtually crash-proof. Unless you're dealing with either bad hardware or bad hardware drivers, you don't have to worry about operating system crashes any more. This has been true for some years now.

Apple's short-lived marketing effort that was based on the idea that PC's crash while Mac's done fell flat. Advocating Linux on the grounds that it doesn't crash falls flat, too.

Linux fails miserably in the user experience arena. The user interface--any one of the upteen hundreds out there--is hideously ugly. No two Linux systems work in the same way, either, unless they're literally identical copies of one another. And as for Linux applications? Forget it. Find me a Linux application that's even vaguely reminiscent of iPhoto or iTunes and I'll eat my hat.This is why I think Apple has the possibility to save the PowerMac line with the 970.I thought we'd cleared this up already. The Power Mac line does not need saving.

Look, your opinions about the relative merits of a Mac versus a whatever else are fine and good. But they are not universal truths. They are not even, from what I can tell, particularly widely held by those who actually know what they are talking about. You're certainly entitled to think whatever you want, but that doesn't mean that you are right in any meaningful sense of the word.

Edit: I think I've come to agree with Bob, particularly after your comment about having to bring a Mac up to Dell's standards. You're just trolling for an argument here. I feel silly for having taken your bait.

[wizard]

Hi

Just go to Dells web site, look under home/home office computers they have an XPS system featured for $1899 with a lot of features. Far lesser systems are available for $699. The XPS does offer a full complement of ports.

The reality is that we probally shouldn't be comapring against Apples old stuff considering the fact that HOPEFULLY everything will be new tommorrow. The concenr I have is that Apple keep any lead the new machines may offer, instead of following the usual pattern of holding the same price for ages while the rest of the world passes them by.

Thanks
Dave


wizard-
Will you humor me and post the exact specs of both machines and the extras you have to add to each to make them equivalent, plus their total and individual parts prices.

That would really help everyone get on the same page here.

__________________
Join MacRumors.com - Team Folding, and be a part of the #1 Mac Folding team!

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by wizard
Hi

Just go to Dells web site, look under home/home office computers they have an XPS system featured for $1899 with a lot of features. Far lesser systems are available for $699. The XPS does offer a full complement of ports.

The reality is that we probally shouldn't be comapring against Apples old stuff considering the fact that HOPEFULLY everything will be new tommorrow. The concenr I have is that Apple keep any lead the new machines may offer, instead of following the usual pattern of holding the same price for ages while the rest of the world passes them by.

Thanks
Dave

IOW, you can't or don't want to? It really would go a long way towards proving your point...too bad.

PS. The quote button is your friend. Use it.

[Sun Baked]

[remove]

When a single member is having a flame war with himself, it's time for medication. :eek:

---

Ooops, sorry looks like the mods have got there already.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
wizard-
Will you humor me and post the exact specs of both machines and the extras you have to add to each to make them equivalent, plus their total and individual parts prices.

That would really help everyone get on the same page here. :)

to get this without doing any work, wizard, try this:

[MacKid]

Originally posted by wizard
Ok guys I've taken you up on this supposed $200 gap between apple and PC hardware. Went to the dell web site and looked at a XPS system, they have one advertised for $1899. The closet apple I oculd find is $2699 and you would have to add hardware to it to bring it up to Dell standards.

The only time recently that Apple has had pricing comparable or slightly above PC prices is at the introduction of new hardware. Within three months the advantage is gone as the PC hardware continues to improve. I realize that Motorola is a big player in this problem but none the less Apple is only competitive for a few months out of the last couple of years. By competitve I accept a little bit of a postitve price differential but not a thousand or more.

Like I said before I'm breathlessly waiting for the 970 introduction. If history repeats itself they will only be viable for a short period of time.

Didn't you say this already? Just go away and stop trying to raise your post count.

I'm not mad, I know that what you're saying is the truth, but you're just coming across all these different posts and just trying to be differential.




Whoa. Did I just say all that?:confused: :eek: :cool:

[wizard]

Hi Jeff;

I disagree with you with respect to the PowerMac line needing saving. If you look at things from the perspective of an outsider I think the conclusion is that there is a need for a turn around. A business can not loose market share and year on year sales and expect ot stay in the market. This is what one sees of the PowerMac line.

The thought that Apple will be introducing the 970's is why I believe they could be well on their way to reviving the product. Frankly; if they don't have a successfull marketing program for the new line of PowerMacs they are going to become insignificant to Apples bottom line.

Really guys I'm not trolling, haven't been in a boat in ages, just trying to point out a few realities. One of which is that no matter how you measure it the PowerMac line is not competitve anymore, that is why the 970 is so important. Apple seems to understand this, why everyone here doesn't escapes me.

Maybe I'm a little excited here, I want Apple to be successfull, but I also want to be able to afford a system from them. Hey its only a few hours now!

thanks
Dave


Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
Oh, come now. It's not the bad old days of 1997. Every operating system these days is virtually crash-proof. Unless you're dealing with either bad hardware or bad hardware drivers, you don't have to worry about operating system crashes any more. This has been true for some years now.

Apple's short-lived marketing effort that was based on the idea that PC's crash while Mac's done fell flat. Advocating Linux on the grounds that it doesn't crash falls flat, too.

Linux fails miserably in the user experience arena. The user interface--any one of the upteen hundreds out there--is hideously ugly. No two Linux systems work in the same way, either, unless they're literally identical copies of one another. And as for Linux applications? Forget it. Find me a Linux application that's even vaguely reminiscent of iPhoto or iTunes and I'll eat my hat.This is why I think Apple has the possibility to save the PowerMac line with the 970.[/quote]I thought we'd cleared this up already. The Power Mac line does not need saving.

Look, your opinions about the relative merits of a Mac versus a whatever else are fine and good. But they are not universal truths. They are not even, from what I can tell, particularly widely held by those who actually know what they are talking about. You're certainly entitled to think whatever you want, but that doesn't mean that you are right in any meaningful sense of the word.

Edit: I think I've come to agree with Bob, particularly after your comment about having to bring a Mac up to Dell's standards. You're just trolling for an argument here. I feel silly for having taken your bait. [/QUOTE]

[MacKid]

Originally posted by wizard
Hi Jeff;

I disagree with you with respect to the PowerMac line needing saving. If you look at things from the perspective of an outsider I think the conclusion is that there is a need for a turn around. A business can not loose market share and year on year sales and expect ot stay in the market. This is what one sees of the PowerMac line.

The thought that Apple will be introducing the 970's is why I believe they could be well on their way to reviving the product. Frankly; if they don't have a successfull marketing program for the new line of PowerMacs they are going to become insignificant to Apples bottom line.

Really guys I'm not trolling, haven't been in a boat in ages, just trying to point out a few realities. One of which is that no matter how you measure it the PowerMac line is not competitve anymore, that is why the 970 is so important. Apple seems to understand this, why everyone here doesn't escapes me.

Maybe I'm a little excited here, I want Apple to be successfull, but I also want to be able to afford a system from them. Hey its only a few hours now!

thanks
Dave


This is why I think Apple has the possibility to save the PowerMac line with the 970.I thought we'd cleared this up already. The Power Mac line does not need saving.

Look, your opinions about the relative merits of a Mac versus a whatever else are fine and good. But they are not universal truths. They are not even, from what I can tell, particularly widely held by those who actually know what they are talking about. You're certainly entitled to think whatever you want, but that doesn't mean that you are right in any meaningful sense of the word.

Edit: I think I've come to agree with Bob, particularly after your comment about having to bring a Mac up to Dell's standards. You're just trolling for an argument here. I feel silly for having taken your bait. [/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually, there really are a lot of loyal developers/editors/designers that simply do things on the mac, just like there are people who "need Windows". And it's not as if there are about 1 out of every 100,000 people. So, I don't think if they save the 970's until next January, that the PowerMac line is going to stop bringing in money. . . . . . . . .and there is a LITTLE bit of money coming from that LITTLE thing called the iTunes Music Store, so I seriously don't think that if we get new iBook designs instead of 970's that Apple will go bankrupt even by the time you start to lighten up.

Two more things: Pleaes spell thinsg like the XSeerve rigth. Se ehow anoying it si?

And also, you must have seen the countless posts telling you to USE THE QUOTE BUTTON. That last post was made just a while ago, and it's just that little button below the message you're quoting. Try it.

Sorry if I come of as being a bit ignorant, or cruel, or "unable to face the truth (in your view)", or whatever, but I honestly don't care.



Wow, that's got to be the meanest I've ever been on these boards!

[shadowfax]

i propose we just drop this, stop calling him a troll, leave the disagreement as is, and all cross our fingers for tomorrow. in the meantime, wizard, you can keep trying to figure out those pesky [quote] tags ;)

mackid: making fun of him like that doesn't help me. i want clarity, not more people adding to the confusion. can you please make some sense of that post and clean it up (highly questionable content there man), or just report it and request it be removed?

[MacKid]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
i propose we just drop this, stop calling him a troll, leave the disagreement as is, and all cross our fingers for tomorrow. in the meantime, wizard, you can keep trying to figure out those pesky [quote] tags ;)

Probably the best idea. However, as you may have guessed, I am underage, unemployed, and therefore have nothing to do until 12:00pm tomorrow at which time I will proceed to the nearest Apple Store to watch the keynote.;)

But still. . .good idea. . .hear that Wiz?

[Ashami]

Just to go back on topic a bit...

I was looking at the Panther shots again. Ya know, I don't think these are what we will see tomorrow. I don't think they are fake, but are early prototype shots. They don't have the Apple polish.

In the Finder window pic, I am wondering if it will have tabs. The framework is definately based on Safari, so I don't see why not...

The icon for Mouse in prefs does hint that we will not be seeing cool new iPod-rotary 2-button mice. But I guess Apple needs other stuff to introduce in the next few months...

Can't wait for tomorrow...!

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
Find me a Linux application that's even vaguely reminiscent of iPhoto or iTunes and I'll eat my hat.
Really? Vaguely reminiscent of iPhoto or iTunes? You may have look for your best tasting hat...

Back on topic:

Do you think that the Apple store'll be changed at midnight, or will they wait for the Keynote?

[shadowfax]

nice! lol. i hope we don't have to get into an argument about the meaning of "vague." for the purposes of this argument, let's say it means "plays MP3's OK." i want to see someone eat a hat.

[Skull Leader]

My uber-prediction before going to bed:

Only G5s available immediately are the first-flight Altivec PPC 970s based on the 1.8 GHz chip. Entry level is a 1.6 GHz low grade version of this chip (like a Celeron or something) that will be in a lower cost motherboard config. 1.8 GHz models will be mid-tier spec with PCI-X etc. Price drop on the 1.42 G4 Dual and G4 iMac. These 1.6GHz chips will be the basis for the 970 iMacs (announced) maybe with a 1.4 GHz 970 too?. The 1.8 GHz model becomes the entry level G5 tower when second-flight 2.5GHz single 970 chip makes its appearance (August), while we wait for the Dual-core version of this chip in the 2.0 GHz Dual as per leak (which will NOT run off Smeagol...so at least unitl Pather is officially released and shipping... October as a guess).

Alum 15.4" PowerBook brings whole line up to 1 GHz G4 (along with new 1 GHz 12") only one 15" model now, all PowerBooks have Superdrive. Don't know how they'll ever get a 970 into a portable with its power consumption...expect to see Motos in portables for a while. (note, if Apple pulls this one off I will be in SHOCK!).

All new displays...not sure what will be different...but they will be different.

Xserve gets 970 chips...probably 2.5 GHz before G5s do, but who knows. Not 1.6s for sure.

Can't watch this thing live...so let me know how I did. ;) Good night.

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
nice! lol. i hope we don't have to get into an argument about the meaning of "vague." for the purposes of this argument, let's say it means "plays MP3's OK." i want to see someone eat a hat.
So all I have to do is find an application for Linux that either plays MP3's or organises photos. I wonder how many hats will be eaten if I find several...:D

Edit:
I could only find a few, but since I don't actually have Linux, I can't test them. I would assume that at least one of them works.

MP3 Players:
http://www.mpg123.de/
http://www.xmms.org/

Photo Apps:
http://www.geocrawler.com/archives/3/292/2002/2/0/7974090/

[rog]

1. Free DP 970 to every Jewish kid on the day of their bas or bar mitzwah.
2. Free tech support from Al Gore (only for republicans).
3. G5 shipping now (really 8 weeks), DP and 1.6 GHz G5 shipping in August (really March 2009, but you can order them now)
4. In July, they'll announce that because, uh, wire and uh, USB ports have skyrocketed in price, everything across the line has become $800 more, but they are throwing in a weeks worth of .mac services, although .mac will be down for that week.
5. 10.3 will be a 128 bit OS and will have no 64 bit or 32 bit compatability mode. Although strangely it will run 68k 24 bit programs in emulation with a special hack from Connectix, er, Microsoft. Because there are no 128 bit processors in any macs, it is scheduled for release in 2114. It goes by the code name "Gershwin Golden Delicious/Fuji-hybrid Feral-cat." Anyone downloading a pre-alpha version will have their computer destroyed via the Orrin Hatch based scheme as part of the Patriot Act.
6. All sounds generated by the computer are now protected AAC files. You may listen to them three times. After that, you will be charged $0.99 per alert sound, and reported to the FBI and whats left of the KGB for good measure. (For mac users in predominantly Islamic countries, you will have your mousing hand chopped off and be reported to whats left of the Taliban).
7. Photoshop "bake-off" where S.J. wheels out an Easy Bake (TM) oven with a P4 3 GHz vs. a 400 watt lightbulb. The 400 watt lightbulb wins, and S.J. announces that this will be the new G5. Because batteries will only last 4 seconds, PowerBooks with the G5 will come with a 37,000 foot extension cord for airplane use. Apple has secretly installed a monorail-type outlet that you can plug into before you take off. Your cord will then travel the US while still tethered to this live wire.
8. Some lackey will talk at length (until Friday morning) about the Gigahertz myth. "Who needs a 3 GHz P4 or a DP 2 GHz G5 to surf the web, do email, or sort their list of top ten potato varieties? Certainly not some 13 year old Jewish kid! We've realized through focus groups and polls that we need to go back to what we have in the 'lock box' and we have resurrected the 68000 8MHz processor. Word 1.0 was blazing in it's day. Who needs an auto-psychoanalysis feature for their personalized e-journal? Nobody!"
9. Number 9, Number 9, Number 9, Number 9, Number 9. (Apologies to 13 year olds who don't get the reference.)

[dabirdwell]

I'm 26 and don't get it...

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Originally posted by rog
1. Free DP 970 to every Jewish kid on the day of their bas or bar mitzwah.
2. Free tech support from Al Gore (only for republicans).
3. G5 shipping now (really 8 weeks), DP and 1.6 GHz G5 shipping in August (really March 2009, but you can order them now)
4. In July, they'll announce that because, uh, wire and uh, USB ports have skyrocketed in price, everything across the line has become $800 more, but they are throwing in a weeks worth of .mac services, although .mac will be down for that week.
5. 10.3 will be a 128 bit OS and will have no 64 bit or 32 bit compatability mode. Although strangely it will run 68k 24 bit programs in emulation with a special hack from Connectix, er, Microsoft. Because there are no 128 bit processors in any macs, it is scheduled for release in 2114. It goes by the code name "Gershwin Golden Delicious/Fuji-hybrid Feral-cat." Anyone downloading a pre-alpha version will have their computer destroyed via the Orrin Hatch based scheme as part of the Patriot Act.
6. All sounds generated by the computer are now protected AAC files. You may listen to them three times. After that, you will be charged $0.99 per alert sound, and reported to the FBI and whats left of the KGB for good measure. (For mac users in predominantly Islamic countries, you will have your mousing hand chopped off and be reported to whats left of the Taliban).
7. Photoshop "bake-off" where S.J. wheels out an Easy Bake (TM) oven with a P4 3 GHz vs. a 400 watt lightbulb. The 400 watt lightbulb wins, and S.J. announces that this will be the new G5. Because batteries will only last 4 seconds, PowerBooks with the G5 will come with a 37,000 foot extension cord for airplane use. Apple has secretly installed a monorail-type outlet that you can plug into before you take off. Your cord will then travel the US while still tethered to this live wire.
8. Some lackey will talk at length (until Friday morning) about the Gigahertz myth. "Who needs a 3 GHz P4 or a DP 2 GHz G5 to surf the web, do email, or sort their list of top ten potato varieties? Certainly not some 13 year old Jewish kid! We've realized through focus groups and polls that we need to go back to what we have in the 'lock box' and we have resurrected the 68000 8MHz processor. Word 1.0 was blazing in it's day. Who needs an auto-psychoanalysis feature for their personalized e-journal? Nobody!"
9. Number 9, Number 9, Number 9, Number 9, Number 9. (Apologies to 13 year olds who don't get the reference.)
You sure sound optimistic!:p

[wizard]

There are actually a number of photo management and viewing applications for Linux. From simple to complex. I've even go a bash script that builds mini versions of my jpegs and assembles a web page for them. The only problem is that my machine is so old (one of the reasons I'm taking so much interest in the 970 possibilities) that it takes for ever to process everything from my 1gig compact flash cards.


Sound I don't know about, not really interested.

Thanks
dave


Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep


Edit:
I could only find a few, but since I don't actually have Linux, I can't test them. I would assume that at least one of them works.

[chetwilliams]

Originally posted by wizard
You really have no idea at all that Apple is in effect running a variant of UNIX do you. Since you don't understand that you probally won't know what a X-server is or what X is itself.

If you had the slightest idea of what a computer can be used for outside the desktop you would understand why I mentioned the possibliity that Apple might deliever their X-server implementation.


Get real. No one in the UNIX world would ever refer to an X11 announcement as an "Xserver" announcement. You are just trying to cover for your stupid mistake. BTW, in case you did not know (which I am sure you did not), in X Windows (and X11) the server is actually on the client side. Before you spout off about things you don't understand I suggest you get three things:

1. The Joy of X: An Overview of the X Window System by Niall Mansfield -- so you can learn about the X Windows system you are referring to
2. Apple.com -- so you can learn what an Xserve is (as opposed to an Xserver)
3. A life -- go troll somewhere else

[coumerelli]

Originally posted by dabirdwell
I'm 26 and don't get it...

I'm 27, I get it...is there THAT much of an age gap? I know I'm on the fringe of GenX, but... :)

hint: google "number 9 beatles"

[hayesk]

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
So all I have to do is find an application for Linux that either plays MP3's or organises photos. I wonder how many hats will be eaten if I find several...:D

Come on now. The whole point of using a Mac is not that it can simply do the same thing, it's that it does it better. Simply saying an app can organize photos or play MP3s does not qualify. An app has to have an intuitive interface that makes it easy to do many common functions in addition to simply organizing photos or playing MP3s.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by chetwilliams
Get real. No one in the UNIX world would ever refer to an X11 announcement as an "Xserver" announcement. You are just trying to cover for your stupid mistake. BTW, in case you did not know (which I am sure you did not), in X Windows (and X11) the server is actually on the client side. Before you spout off about things you don't understand I suggest you get three things:

1. The Joy of X: An Overview of the X Window System by Niall Mansfield -- so you can learn about the X Windows system you are referring to
2. Apple.com -- so you can learn what an Xserve is (as opposed to an Xserver)
3. A life -- go troll somewhere else hey, pipe down with the personal attacks. it's over... shhhhhh.... stop digging up buried issues... that's it... good.

[Jeff Harrell]

I stand by my challenge. If somebody can find me a program for Linux that is (1) equivalent in a meaningful way to iTunes or iPhoto, and (2) actually functional, not one of those "in development hell" things, I will... well, we can talk about the actual, literal terms later. Suffice it to say that I declare there are no such applications.

Let's look at what iTunes and iPhoto do.

iTunes plays MP3, AAC, AIFF, and WAV files. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. It's also an encoder for all of those formats, but that's not all either. It's a complete library management system, capable of storing, indexing, and organizing literally tens of thousands of audio files. (Maybe more than that, with version 4.) Playlists, smart playlists, automatic organization of the music library, Rendezvous sharing, and most importantly disc burning. Find me a Linux application that can even come close to this. (All of this is, of course, ignoring the iTunes Music Store. There's nothing else like that anywhere in the world, on any platform. And it's only available through iTunes.)

iPhoto is similar. It interfaces with your digital camera (this alone is worth the price of admission), downloads the photos, and displays them. It also arranges them by roll and various user-entered and automatic metadata. You can select photos and publish them directly to the web. You can order prints with just a couple of mouse clicks. You can create slideshows (with music from your iTunes library) and export them straight into iDVD, for crying out loud! And, of course, like iTunes, you can burn CD's or DVD's with the push of a button. There is nothing like this for Linux.

This epitomizes the entire issue. If you look at iTunes and say "MP3 player" or iPhoto and say "picture catalog," you're not getting it. Same thing if you look at a Mac and say "expensive PC." You're just not getting it.

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Originally posted by hayesk
Come on now. The whole point of using a Mac is not that it can simply do the same thing, it's that it does it better. Simply saying an app can organize photos or play MP3s does not qualify. An app has to have an intuitive interface that makes it easy to do many common functions in addition to simply organizing photos or playing MP3s.
I know. That's why I'll use a Mac even if they don't update their hardware for 2 years. But it said vaguely, and I wanted to see someone eat a hat.:D

Edit:
Originally postyed by Jeff Harrel
I stand by my challenge. If somebody can find me a program for Linux that is (1) equivalent in a meaningful way to iTunes or iPhoto, and (2) actually functional, not one of those "in development hell" things, I will... well, we can talk about the actual, literal terms later. Suffice it to say that I declare there are no such applications.

Let's look at what iTunes and iPhoto do.

iTunes plays MP3, AAC, AIFF, and WAV files. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. It's also an encoder for all of those formats, but that's not all either. It's a complete library management system, capable of storing, indexing, and organizing literally tens of thousands of audio files. (Maybe more than that, with version 4.) Playlists, smart playlists, automatic organization of the music library, Rendezvous sharing, and most importantly disc burning. Find me a Linux application that can even come close to this. (All of this is, of course, ignoring the iTunes Music Store. There's nothing else like that anywhere in the world, on any platform. And it's only available through iTunes.)

iPhoto is similar. It interfaces with your digital camera (this alone is worth the price of admission), downloads the photos, and displays them. It also arranges them by roll and various user-entered and automatic metadata. You can select photos and publish them directly to the web. You can order prints with just a couple of mouse clicks. You can create slideshows (with music from your iTunes library) and export them straight into iDVD, for crying out loud! And, of course, like iTunes, you can burn CD's or DVD's with the push of a button. There is nothing like this for Linux.

This epitomizes the entire issue. If you look at iTunes and say "MP3 player" or iPhoto and say "picture catalog," you're not getting it. Same thing if you look at a Mac and say "expensive PC." You're just not getting it.
I understand what you mean, but you should have worded it something along the lines of "comes close to" as opposed to "vaguely resembles":rolleyes:

[digi002]

So I guess wizard was adding together the prices on the dell extras and found out fast that the little things add up. I give you some points for trying to cover yourself, but all in all....Your Fired!



There has to be 15" powerbooks! I know too many people (including myself)at my schools who will be buying 12" PB's if the 15's are not out or available. IS THIS WHAT APPLE WANTS? I think alot of the 12" and 17" sales came from people who could not wait for the 15" update. G4 or G5 i don't care. I would be nervous buying the 1st 970 but it would be cool.

The powerbooks are bringing the "switchers" and I don't think people are giving attention to this. I hope Steve is.

[wizard]

Uh right the Server runs on the client so how did I confuse anything, anyone I've every dealt with talks about configuring and installing X servers. Must be a locality issue.

In any event the point I was trying to make is that if the X server comes out of beta it would be a very good thing for Apple and OS/X. If it ends up as part of 10.3 it really will be another feather in Apples software cap.

I really don't understand all this negative attitude when I try to point out the very positive things that will happen for Apple if they can deliver the 970's and a bunch of software such as an X server and a browser. I beginning to think that I understand more about what is going on than alot of people want to accept.

Dave


Originally posted by chetwilliams
Get real. No one in the UNIX world would ever refer to an X11 announcement as an "Xserver" announcement. You are just trying to cover for your stupid mistake. BTW, in case you did not know (which I am sure you did not), in X Windows (and X11) the server is actually on the client side. Before you spout off about things you don't understand I suggest you get three things:
>>snip

[wizard]

I'm really losing interest in trying to help. It makes little difference anyways as the equations will all cahnge in a few hours. Hopefully dramatically and within budget.

For Apple to wait as long as they have to bring out the 15" incher you know its got to be a major upgrade. I'm still up in the air with respect to the 970, because even though it is a low power chip itself there is still the question of low power support chips to go with the 970. This is an area where there is almost know public information available.

You do see alot of Powerbooks out and about, planes, resturants, Jamaica just about every where. They are one of the positive aspects of the MAC line, a jump in performance to a 970 would be a marketing field day.

I would be less nervous about a 970 based laptop than a desktop. Lets face it laptops are closed systems for the most part, if they get it right they will last for awhile. If not there is a warranty.

Originally posted by digi002
So I guess wizard was adding together the prices on the dell extras and found out fast that the little things add up. I give you some points for trying to cover yourself, but all in all....Your Fired!



There has to be 15" powerbooks! I know too many people (including myself)at my schools who will be buying 12" PB's if the 15's are not out or available. IS THIS WHAT APPLE WANTS? I think alot of the 12" and 17" sales came from people who could not wait for the 15" update. G4 or G5 i don't care. I would be nervous buying the 1st 970 but it would be cool.

The powerbooks are bringing the "switchers" and I don't think people are giving attention to this. I hope Steve is.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by Skull Leader
Probably ture. Very possible that they toned down the chips for reliability in production. The Apple info may be very well correct at 1.6 GHz and 1.8 GHz. Also, Dual 2.0 GHz sounds in line for a dual-core based on the 2.5 GHz run. The single 2.5 GHz chip may be the prototype model for those 'faster macs by the end of the year' IBM mentions. Just don't expect to see the Dual 2GHz model for quite some time.

Just so you know the PPC970 is not a multi-core capable chip. The PPC980 has the potential to be if IBM caries through with it's plans but the PPC970 was never designed to be. From what I understand they did this in order to get the size of the overall chip down. Aparently even if it isn't a multi-core chip it still takes up more room then a desktop computer would normally use. There plans are to move to multi-core with the PPC980 since by the time the 980 comes out they will have the 90nm processing down pat and the size of the whole card with dual core will be about the size of the current PPC970 card.

[Frobozz]

Anyone here getting snug with their ignore list besides me? :-)

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by wizard
..........I don't believe apple is going anywhere either. On the otherhand I don't know how long they will be producing Macs or computers in general. Lets face it if the Mac line revenue keeps shrinking with respect to all the other revenue centers it will go away............

Apple hasn't been the real setback here it has been Motorola. Apple has had no reason to upgrade the rest of there hardware as the system board already out matches the cpus. There just haven't been any PPC alternatives until now.

Also Apples computers sales make up 75% of there revenue so if it goes away Apple goes away. Apples not going anywhere they are actually doing quite well revenue wise many many times better then they have in the past and they stuck around back then. So with the fact that Apple is here to stay so is there hardware.

[solvs]

I had really hoped the flame war had stopped so I could make a lame joke. But since it hasn't, I'll throw my $0.02 in. Some people like Apples, some people like Wintels. Some people are happy with the computer they have because it does everything they need it to do. Some people are willing to pay more for what they want. Whether you get more, or less, it doesn't matter. I have complained about the speed and cost of Apples in the past. I merely wanted parity.

Hopefully, tomorrow, I'll get my wish.

There will always be people who like Apples, and people who like PCs. Personnaly I use both. I prefer Apple because I do. I don't like Windows, and Linux frustrated me and wasn't worth the trouble. I don't play games. I do web development, audio/video/image editing, etc. Apples are a lot better for this - IN MY OPINION. I want to work on my Apple.

Before you ask, I am proficient in both. I still prefer Apples. You can choose whatever you want, we don't care. It's one thing to b*tch about wanting Apples to be faster, or cheaper, or have more features. But if you come here just to stir up trouble and tell us what you like, you can go away. We come here because we like the Mac OS, and want to know more about it, and what's coming next.

If you don't like it, you don't have to come here.

I for one can't wait for tomorrow. :D

[analogkid]

Originally posted by copperpipe

Anyway, I for one think it would be way cool if Apple brought back "the cube"

Ditto, i think it's their best modern design, especially if you can keep it fanless.
The anniversary mac was a great one as was the original compact case that walked around on tiny feet in Bloom County.

[requies]

Originally posted by Skull Leader
Don't know how they'll ever get a 970 into a portable with its power consumption...expect to see Motos in portables for a while. (note, if Apple pulls this one off I will be in SHOCK!).

*sigh* i've heard this so much it makes me ill. yes, the 970 at 1.8ghz dissipates 42 watts, but the 970 at 1.2ghz dissipates only 19 watts! the current g4 at 1ghz dissipates 30 watts.

(processor dissipation numbers courtesy of ars technica)

i predict that there will be 970 powerbooks shipping tomorrow. but i am only guessing, so we'll see. :)

[AlejandroGonzo]

Dell Dimension XPS

Pentium® 4 Processor at 3GHz with
800MHz front side bus
1024MB DDR SDRAM at 400Mhz
120GB Ultra ATA/100 7200RPM Hard Drive
4x DVD+RW/+R Drive w/CD-RW including Roxio's Easy CD Creator®
128MB DDR ATI RADEON? 9800 Graphics Card with TV-Out and DVI (can do dual monitors)
56K PCI Telephony Modem
Dell Gigabit Ethernet
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition
Dell Music, Movie and Photo Software

$2,508.00 (add approx $198.00 shipping and handling)

$2,706.00

Apple Power Mac

Power Mac G4 Dual 1.42GHz w/2MB L3 per proc.
167MHz front side bus
512MB DDR333 SDRAM (PC2700)
120GB Ultra ATA drive
Apple SuperDrive
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro w/128MB DDR
56K internal modem
Gigabit Ethernet
Mac OS X
iApps

$2,999.00

Processor: DELL, admit it, PCs are faster
Bus: DELL, no comparison
Ram: DELL, faster and more of it
HD: DRAW
Optical Drive: APPLE, hardware is the same, but Mac is easier to use
Graphics Card: DELL
Modem: DRAW
Ethernet: DRAW
OS: APPLE (XP isn't horrible, but it is crappier and deteriorates with time)
Software: APPLE, (for software included, for software you can purchase, DELL)

Overall, be honest here, the Dell is the better buy. Hardware wise, there is no comparison. It would have been worse had there been the same amount of RAM in each machine. The Apple system is a joke. Software wise, the Mac is better but Windows XP isn?t the **** hole everyone here makes it out to be. Now lets come back tomorrow and see if the situation is different. For those of you who think i'm trolling, I'm posting this on a dual 1.25 G4 (the very machine I'm criticizing). Now come out with a 970 Powerbook so I can buy one Apple.

[Rower_CPU]

Thanks, AlejandroGonzo, that's all I wanted to see. That looks suspiciously like a $300 difference. ;)

[MacBandit]

So you're saying the difference in price is what at the most $500 when you make the ram quantity equal. I'm sorry but the speed difference and the much greater software package on top of the more friendly OS makes $500 look like nothing. For 98% of most users out there they will never notice the 10 seconds in a day that the Dell system might have saved them on processing time. I still say though that the Mac has less maintenance and less down time equallying more work time. Also the as many pros put it the workflow is just much much better on the Mac and it takes less time to learn which equals more time to work.

[digi002]

Lets say the Uber all in one world peace machine is announced at WWDC and is shipping immediatly.

Would I be able to get my education discount?

Do they release to both stores same time?
anyone have any experiences with this?

They better not make me wait any longer for my 15"
I have projects Scheduled for next week and I hate my "home made laptop" (a mid tower PC I built and put a shoulder strap on, lol) I don't let my G4 tower take road trips.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by Frobozz
Anyone here getting snug with their ignore list besides me? :-) Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't even know such a feature existed until you mentioned it. Very, very handy.

[requies]

Originally posted by digi002
Would I be able to get my education discount?

Do they release to both stores same time?
anyone have any experiences with this?

yes, yes, and yes. three and a half years ago when the 500mhz G4 was released at macworld tokyo, i was able to order mine from the apple store for education scant moments after the keynote.

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by digi002
Lets say the Uber all in one world peace machine is announced at WWDC and is shipping immediatly.

Would I be able to get my education discount?

Do they release to both stores same time?
anyone have any experiences with this?

They better not make me wait any longer for my 15"
I have projects Scheduled for next week and I hate my "home made laptop" (a mid tower PC I built and put a shoulder strap on, lol) I don't let my G4 tower take road trips.

I ordered my Dual/GHz/DDR back in August 2 hours after they were announced on the eductaional discount. I have always worked up the deal online and then called them. Sometimes you get some really interesting help over the phone including additional discounts and/or accesories.

[weezer160]

just wondering...since when did macintosh users care about the price about their product when it comes to the high end? isn't the whole point of buying a mac to have a better overall computing experience despite the price? don't we have different values in the first place? and besides, we KNOW are compuers are better in the first place, and now that we have IBM on our side...we'll be able to shell out new competitive machines quickly. i think the old days of the G4s lagging behind are over, just 12 more hours of it guys! the G4 is outdated, and everybody is making comparisons of G4 hardware that was updated in january to dells tops of the line stuff, where's the logic in that?

[MacSlut]

A couple of things you forgot...

Norton Antivirus for Windows

Not only the cost, but the time to install, download updates, etc...

Second, the costs should be amortized over the life of the products. If you really want to make this decision based on costs, then productive output should also be evaluated over the life of the products as well.

My sister had a Dell. It lasted 2 years. Her Mac is now 3 years old and still in use. The Mac cost a bit more than the Dell, but is better in *many* ways in terms of user experience.

The Dell may have had a faster CPU, bus, memory, and graphics card, but that speed difference was totally eaten up by all the problems she had with the Dell. Further time was wasted installing and updating Norton Antivirus.

And here's the kicker... During a period of time when she was lax about updating Norton, her Dell got a virus. It wiped out everything. Photos, documents, etc...

[SiliconAddict]

New powerbooks at the Apple store already? Looks like they are going retro.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Sorry. Couldn't help myself :o

[fpnc]

Okay, earlier today (June 22, 2003) I went to the Dell site to configure some systems in preparation for tomorrow's WWDC keynote. I'm not a complete newbie to the Dell site having visited there several times over the last few years, however, I must say that their site sucks big time in comparison to the clear, well designed, and functional Apple Store. Anyway, I selected a top-end and low-end system from each store and tried to make similarly configured systems. There is no way that you can match systems exactly, so I attempted to match memory configurations, drives, peripheral ports, and basic hardware features. The Dells were configured without displays ("Video Ready").

Hopefully this will bring to an end the long and largely off-topic discussion concerning Dell versus Apple pricing. This may also prove useful after tomorrow's WWDC keynote.

Here is what I found (prices do not include shipping or taxes):

** Low-End Systems **
-------------------------
Dell Dimension 8300
@ 2.6GHz $1269 (price includes $100 mail-in rebate).

Power Mac G4
@ 1.0GHz $1599 (price includes upgrade to 512MB RAM).

** High-End Systems **
-------------------------
Dell Dimension XPS
@ 3GHz $2259 (price includes $100 mail-in rebate).

Power Mac G4
Dual @ 1.43GHz $2699 (standard configuration).
-------------------------
-------------------------

**Dell Advantages**
Low end $330 cheaper.
High end $440 cheaper.
Dells offer more options, could be made even lower cost by eliminating DVI/dual monitor support and/or Firewire (Firewire is std. on XPS).

USB 2.0
Faster and higher-end graphics cards (required for DVI and dual monitor support).
AGP 8X graphics port.
Multi-channel audio output.
Includes legacy serial and parallel ports.

Includes bundled office application suite.

High-end Dell comes with free upgrade to 1GB RAM.
Low-end Dell offers significantly better processor performance than the 1GHz Power Mac G4. Low-end Dell also includes external speakers.

Dell offers free in-home service for one year.

**Apple Advantages**
One Firewire 800 and two Firewire 400 ports (Dell XPS has two Firewire 400 ports, Dell 8300 may only have one externally accessible Firewire 400 port).
Power Macs equipped as shown contain four empty PCI slots for additional expansion capabilities (Dells have fewer empty slots, use PCI slots for modem, 1Gb Ethernet (AFAIK), Firewire/sound card).
Power Macs are wireless ready.

iApps offer better integration over Dell's mix of third-party music, photo, and video tools (IMO).
Includes Developer tools (only an advantage for "geeks" and software developers).

No need for mail-in rebate.
Apple Store a much superior buying experience, easier to configure and determine choices (IMO).

-------------------------
-------------------------

Further details on the configurations:

** Low End **
-------------------------
Dell Dimension 8300 for $1269 (price includes $100 mail-in rebate)

2.6GHz Pentium IV, 512MB DDR SDRAM (free upgrade from std. 256MB), 60GB ATA100 HD, DVD-ROM and CD-R/W dual drives, Sound Blaster Audigy sound card (for Firewire support), Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers with Subwoofer (std. no extra cost), Logitech optical mouse, Dell Gigabit Ethernet, 56K PCI Data/Fax Modem, ATI Radeon 9800 Graphics w/128MB DDR video memory (required for DVI and dual monitor support), MS Windows XP Home Edition, WordPerfect Productivity Pack with Quicken New User Edition, Dell Jukebox, Dell Picture Studio, Dell Movie Studio Essentials.
-------------------------
-------------------------
Power Mac G4 for $1599

1GHz PowerPC G4, 512MB DDR SDRAM, 60GB Ultra ATA/100, DVD-ROM/CD-R/W Combo drive, built-in stereo audio in/out, built-in Gigabit Ethernet, built-in 56K internal modem, NVIDIA GeForce4 MX w/64MB DDR video memory, built-in FireWire 800, Bluetooth Ready, Airport Extreme Ready (802.11 b/g), Mac OS X, iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, iCal, iChat, iSync, DVD Player, Mac OS X Mail, Acrobat Reader, Art Director?s Toolkit, FAXstf, Graphic Converter, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner and Preview, Developer Tools, Project Builder, Applescript Studio, InterfaceBuilder, gcc compiler.
-------------------------

** High End **
-------------------------
Dell Dimension XPS for $2259 (price includes $100 mail-in rebate)

3.0GHz Pentium IV, 1GB DDR SDRAM (free upgrade from std. 512MB), 120 GB ATA100 HD, 4X DVD+R/RW DVD burner with Roxio's Easy CD Creator, Sound Blaster Audigy sound card (std.), Logitech optical mouse, Dell Enhanced Multimedia Keyboard, Dell Gigabit Ethernet, 56K PCI Data/Fax Modem, ATI Radeon 9800 Graphics w/128MB DDR video memory (required for DVI and dual monitor support), MS Windows XP Home Edition, WordPerfect Productivity Pack, Dell Jukebox, Dell Picture Studio, Dell Movie Studio Plus with Roxio VideoWave Movie Creator.
-------------------------
-------------------------
Power Mac G4 for $2699

Dual 1.42GHz PowerPC G4, 512MB DDR SDRAM, 120GB Ultra ATA/100, SuperDrive DVD-R DVD burner with iDVD, built-in stereo audio in/out, ATI Radeon 9000 Pro w/64MB DDR video memory, built-in FireWire 800, built-in Gigabit Ethernet, built-in 56K internal modem, Bluetooth Ready, Airport Extreme Ready (802.11 b/g), Mac OS X, iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, iDVD, iCal, iChat, iSync, DVD Player, Mac OS X Mail, Acrobat Reader, Art Director?s Toolkit, FAXstf, Graphic Converter, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner and Preview, Developer Tools, Project Builder, Applescript Studio, InterfaceBuilder, gcc compiler.
-------------------------

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by MacSlut


And here's the kicker... During a period of time when she was lax about updating Norton, her Dell got a virus. It wiped out everything. Photos, documents, etc...

I think the threat of viruses is overstated on PC's. I run NAV Corp edition on my desktop but nothing on my laptop. In my computing history I have never caught or detected a virus on my system. I attribute it to my computing method. If I don't know where it came from I don't open it. If it’s a download from a sketchy site I scan it. This is my 10 year anniversary running Windows (Do I throw a party or cry?) and I have yet to get any type of virus infection. Just as its smart to practice safe sex it’s also smart to practice safe computing. I don't know enough about OSX to speak intelligently about the system so I will ask. If someone wrote a virus and a person executed a program from an e-mail attachment does the logged in user have enough rights to the system to cause damage? If so I would say Macs users need safe computing habits as bad as PC users. If not then I will add it to my growing list of why I'm getting a powerbook this fall.

PS- What type of Dell? The Inspirons are designed for the general public and from everything I’ve heard the quality sucks butt. The Latitudes are more business oriented. (I have a Lat CSx.) and the quality is pretty dang high.

[laelia]

Man, this thing really had me going.....

http://digitalstudios.geneva-link.com/index2.html

(original link from Spidermanjohn.)

Now I'm totally let down. And the friends I told too. A quad G5?

Is that even possible?

[shadowfax]

with SMP, yes, and i don't think they will even use that, but something more advanced. you can get servers with a lot more than 4 procs in them.

the 3d-rendered fakeness of that page should have clued you in just a little bit ;)

[wizard]

Hi Weezer;

Dell was choosen for comparison out of the blue, there are certainly enough other players in the market. If people take a rational look at what is on the market {especially the new AMD stuff} the can develop some idea of what could possibly be coming from Apple. Obviously there are no gaurantees here, but there is a great deal of potential transfer from the PC world. In any event the Dell does indicate how far Apples G4 hardware lags the rest of the industry.

Some of that transfer may result from Apple being part of the HyperTransport team, and some of that from new memory and harddisk technology. Though some do not want to admit it there are performance issues with yesterdays (only a few hours now) MAC hardware. Understanding the capabilities and price points, of PC on the makret today, can give us a feel for what Apple will introduce later today.

Yes the user experience is an important part of the equation. Equally important is the ability to make good us of your hardware, by getting things done quickly. For some applications the hopefull introduction of the 970 PC's will put Apple in the peformance lead agian.


Originally posted by weezer160
just wondering...since when did macintosh users care about the price about their product when it comes to the high end? isn't the whole point of buying a mac to have a better overall computing experience despite the price? don't we have different values in the first place? and besides, we KNOW are compuers are better in the first place, and now that we have IBM on our side...we'll be able to shell out new competitive machines quickly. i think the old days of the G4s lagging behind are over, just 12 more hours of it guys! the G4 is outdated, and everybody is making comparisons of G4 hardware that was updated in january to dells tops of the line stuff, where's the logic in that?

[wizard]

At this time I have to think that everybody on the planet knows how badly Motorola has impacted Apple. Which in a nut shell is what I've been trying to point out, Apple needs a 970 based machine or something like it really bad. Anybody that thinks that a nice user interface will make up for poor machine performance in the long run is out of touch. Just look at what is left of the minicomputer industry. I really do wish people would listen to what I've said, I'm not tring to trash Apple or start a flame war. I've been following the 970 since the microprocessor forum, there is a potential for Apple to get the PowerMac (or whatever its replacement is called) back on track. Apples very actions indicate that they know this is important also.

As far as Apple and computer sales go I'm not convinced that they have to make computers to survive in the future. The digital life style device, ITunes and other things we probally haven't heard about yet could easly replace the MAC line for revenue. Companies go through these sorts of transitions all the time. Now Steve Jobs has a personal interest in producing computers, he certainly is not going to drop the MAC line if he can avoid it, but in the long run he could be left with no alternative.

What is coming our way is very important to Apple. Lets just hope that the hardware is good enough to survive the first spasm of upgrades and continue to draw customers. The current PowerMacs have failed to do that. Apple is lucky to have a PowerBook line to make up for that.

Dave


Originally posted by MacBandit
Apple hasn't been the real setback here it has been Motorola. Apple has had no reason to upgrade the rest of there hardware as the system board already out matches the cpus. There just haven't been any PPC alternatives until now.

Also Apples computers sales make up 75% of there revenue so if it goes away Apple goes away. Apples not going anywhere they are actually doing quite well revenue wise many many times better then they have in the past and they stuck around back then. So with the fact that Apple is here to stay so is there hardware.

[eric67]

Originally posted by fpnc
Okay, earlier today (June 22, 2003) I went to the Dell site to configure some systems in preparation for tomorrow's WWDC keynote. I'm not a complete newbie to the Dell site having visited there several times over the last few years, however, I must say that their site sucks big time in comparison to the clear, well designed, and functional Apple Store. Anyway, I selected a top-end and low-end system from each store and tried to make similarly configured systems. There is no way that you can match systems exactly, so I attempted to match memory configurations, drives, peripheral ports, and basic hardware features. The Dells were configured without displays ("Video Ready").

Hopefully this will bring to an end the long and largely off-topic discussion concerning Dell versus Apple pricing. This may also prove useful after tomorrow's WWDC keynote.
-------------------------

thank you for that selection. but there is one important point here which is never looked carefully.
the quality of the different components used. this count quite a lot. Is the HD in the DELL an IBM/Hitachi?? (especially if it is a 60 or 80GB, and for the low end model)
From which company is the RAM??
Dell has special design with their mobo, that way a friend of mine who just wanted to upgrade his graphic card, just realize that he is stacked with his "old" GeForce4 MX. Simply no space in that box... So one should really realize that in the PC world, they are selling PC not based on real performance, but on the GHz myth, and it is still the case nowdays.
what the use to get a 533MHz bus with a 3GHz processor, when you can have cheaper 800MHz wit a 2.4GHz, which will definitely, heat up much less and in addition have probably better performance and stability.
What you have in your machine counts a lot , there is no need to have a porsche engine in a FIAT punto, you have a feeling of speed but that all what you are enjoying, not the real porsche feeling.
I hope Steve is going to announce some cool computer this evening

[ibookberlin]

The largest Apple reseller in germany, Gravis, gives huge discounts on EVERY laptop (iBooks and PowerBooks) from June 23rd to 25th.

http://www.gravis.de/messepreise/index.html

Checked other online-stores like "mactrade.de" and it seems similar. Doesn't that hint to new laptops beeing right behind the curtain and waiting to see the light at WWDC?

[makkystyle]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
to get this without doing any work, wizard, try this:


Hey Shadowfax, what browser are you using? I like the look of MR in whatever it is.

[chetwilliams]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
I think the threat of viruses is overstated on PC's. I run NAV Corp edition on my desktop but nothing on my laptop. In my computing history I have never caught or detected a virus on my system.
I am glad that you have never caught a virus. From my experience though, viruses have been a big problem. Luckily, my company has deployed an automatically updating antivirus app on all of our PC desktops and e-mail servers. My AV program frequently detects viruses. Usually they are the Office macro viruses and are sent to me by clients I am working with. Our e-mail servers also catch a TON of viruses as evidenced by the occasional flood of virus blocked notifications I occassionally get. Keep in mind this is on a PC. On my Mac I have never once detected a virus (even a PC one).

[the future]

Originally posted by eric67
there is one important point here which is never looked carefully.
the quality of the different components used. this count quite a lot.

Ah, the voice of reason... That's why any comparison between Apple and Dell is very pointless. If you want to compare you should compare Apple towers to HP or Sony towers.

For me personally the sheer uglyness of the Dell corporate LOGO alone is reason enough to never ever consider to buy anything they produce, let alone a computer running Windows. Except in NIGHTMARES of course...

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by h'biki
Surf the web. Check e-mail. Word process. Mp3s. Digital Photos.

With the exception of the last two, I could do the first three on my SE back in 1988.

http://www.hixie.ch/commentary/web/history

THE WEB

1989: Tim Berners-Lee proposes that CERN get some system to organise
their info. [1]

1990: Early forms of HTML, HTTP invented by TBL. HTML designed to be
structural, with semantics but no presentation. Stylesheets
given as possible way of sprucing up documents.

"It is required that HTML be a common language between all
platforms. This implies no device-specific markup, or anything
which requires control over fonts or colors, for example. This
is in keeping with the SGML ideal." [2]

TBL releases first versions of his web browsers. [4]

HTML retrospec'ed as an SGML application.

1992: Line Mode web browser (1.1, 1.2) released

1993: NCSA Mosaic takes the Internet by storm; WWW proliferates at a
341,634% annual growth rate of service traffic.

Mosaic's Marc Andreessen adds <img> tag in completely
non-standard way (doesn't even follow SGML attribute syntax!).

So, two years before the first text-only browser came out you were surfing on your SE.

Hahaha...

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
So, two years before the first text-only browser came out you were surfing on your SE.It's very good that you know your history, and furthermore that you went to the trouble of posting a link to and quote from a web site demonstrating this fact, but the point remains that one could have surfed the web on a Mac SE in 1988 had there been a web to surf. The task is simply not all that challenging. When you throw a megabyte of malformed HTML at a browser, yes, it has to chew on it for a while. But day-to-day browsing just isn't that difficult, computationally speaking. Nobody needs an Itanium 2 to read cnn.com.

And, for the record, I was doing something that was essentially digital photography on my Mac SE in 1988. It was one-bit black-and-white, but I remember scanning a line drawing for a tee-shirt design on a scanner at the computer lab, cleaning it up in Photoshop, and tracing it and finishing it with Illustrator 88. I remember the heartbreak of realizing that Illustrator's auto-trace function wasn't the magical panacea I had hoped for.

I think sometimes people forget that by the standards of the mid-1980s, we all have supercomputers on our desks. Remember that the next time you turn your nose up at a 400 MHz G3 or something.

(Listen, this is utterly off-topic, but I'd like to ask you a favor. Would you please reconsider your signature line? Not everybody has the same political opinions that you have, and not everybody wants to see political comment on macrumors.com. If you want to include a link to your home page or something that wouldn't bother me a bit. I just dislike seeing something that is both absurdly inflamatory and wildly irrelevant to the forum in question. Just my two cents. Please think about it.)

[kangaroo]

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it make a sound?

If Apple releases the next Hal-2000 and they don’t market it properly will it make a difference?

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
http://www.hixie.ch/commentary/web/history

THE WEB

1989: Tim Berners-Lee proposes that CERN get some system to organise
their info. [1]

1990: Early forms of HTML, HTTP invented by TBL. HTML designed to be
structural, with semantics but no presentation. Stylesheets
given as possible way of sprucing up documents.

"It is required that HTML be a common language between all
platforms. This implies no device-specific markup, or anything
which requires control over fonts or colors, for example. This
is in keeping with the SGML ideal." [2]

TBL releases first versions of his web browsers. [4]

HTML retrospec'ed as an SGML application.

1992: Line Mode web browser (1.1, 1.2) released

1993: NCSA Mosaic takes the Internet by storm; WWW proliferates at a
341,634% annual growth rate of service traffic.

Mosaic's Marc Andreessen adds <img> tag in completely
non-standard way (doesn't even follow SGML attribute syntax!).

So, two years before the first text-only browser came out you were surfing on your SE.

Hahaha...
Maybe he got a beta version...:confused:

PS: Nice signature, I totally agree.